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是不是請我們彭部長好 請彭部長李委員好部長 我先講一下這個關於修法的案子我剛才早上已經講了中央如果管得不好的話 其實是應該要檢討也的確是可以檢討的"},{"start":31.201,"end":50.954,"text":"但是我自己一貫這30年從事環保運動的時候一直就是認為說地方政府可以上下其手的空間特別容易受到地方的惡勢力或是民代操作那的確是一個大問題那特別是我地方的民代、議長"},{"start":53.255,"end":64.019,"text":"本身參與事業廢棄物焚化爐的投資的興建的也很多像新竹維利大家都知道現在大家高度關注的陳建賢議長事實上這個事業廢棄物焚化爐的排用公司漢陽科技操作的那大家都知道"},{"start":72.422,"end":95.963,"text":"地方政府敢管嗎 而地方議長對於地方政府有沒有高度的前置的權力 這個都是無庸置疑的所以地方議長經營的 或是黑道跟議員經營的這種污染 地方政府是管不動 也不敢管的所以把權力下放下去以後真的是滋事體大有可能"},{"start":98.545,"end":110.217,"text":"這些民代經營的不敢管 然後你能夠管的就對公部門而已 或者是不好說來的 像傅坤祺在擔任花蓮縣長期間"},{"start":113.035,"end":120.381,"text":"那自行這個以空氣污染源許可證展延逾期為理由就威脅要業者繳很多錢嗎他們的訴訟我們不管其實就是一樣白道也是要錢啦不給錢的話就不給他執照啦你說那是為了空氣污染嗎"},{"start":131.67,"end":145.714,"text":"他就是為了要錢 大家都知道所以是當時的那個進週刊在2025年4月底取得的錄音檔環保局局長就當場跟業者說你們的空屋操作許可執照已經預期了我們可以馬上就叫你們停工"},{"start":149.455,"end":170.045,"text":"然後這個秘書長 花蓮縣政府的秘書長就威脅業者說不要因小失大啦然後那個副縣長就說 想拿回稅金不可能啦台迷、雅尼都已經乖乖配合了 你們還是趕快給錢啦所以給錢就可以有執照 連地方政府的都可以這樣操作"},{"start":170.865,"end":185.54,"text":"所以我是覺得這個是修法齁這個要知識體大要小心啦齁那另外許可證只給兩年兩年到了就要再申請一次兩年到了就要申請一次大家都不用做事情啊夾子也不用做事情啊"},{"start":188.263,"end":196.586,"text":"行政官員公務員也不用做事情大家一年多就要再來行政就要再去審查每天都為了行政程序在那邊跑所以這樣的許可只能兩年這個東西合理嗎我是覺得很擔憂好但我今天不是要跟你講這個我想我長期關心空氣污染那我要跟你討論就是空污費增了30年了那為什麼臭氧的問題始終無解不曉得你覺得呢"},{"start":218.355,"end":237.844,"text":"最主要是說第一個是說我們現在VOC的問題還有NUX的問題兩個混合經過大氣的傳送其實VOC我們過去管的可能還不夠然後甚至還有一個就是說我們的那個氮氧化物的確是有在增加的現象所以造成說這個光化反應的這個問題這個是我們未來關注的一個焦點"},{"start":240.305,"end":247.329,"text":"你講的我恐怕不知道是不是正確的因為你108年到113年固定污染源的空污費的排放量跟全國77個空品測站監測濃度的比較的結果你們自己環境部的報告顯示這個SOS排放量降低約39%大氣的平均濃度降了48%這個硫氧化物嘛那你剛剛講的這個氮氧化物"},{"start":266.101,"end":278.493,"text":"它整體也是微幅下降趨勢啦也是有在下降啦但是呢關鍵不是在那裡但我是要跟你講說臭氧前驅物你剛才講的VOVOCS了它其實也下降了26%啊26%所以關鍵不是你講那幾個它們都在下降啊"},{"start":286.161,"end":302.27,"text":"但是我們那個大氣的光化反應隨著這個氣候變遷溫度的上升其實目前來說的話還有各種其他的這個污染源沒有管得到那我告訴你啦你沒有管的是什麼我剛剛講VOC排放量下降26但臭氧濃度都沒有明顯的改善是"},{"start":303.45,"end":309.454,"text":"這個臭氧濃度才是關鍵空污費爭了30年但臭氧問題是最關鍵臭氧問題的最關鍵中的最關鍵叫做臭氧問題的前驅物質環境部從來沒有課過一塊錢沒有課到一塊錢啦沒有啦第二個空污費減免辦法公告了17年累積了193件的核發案件你的減免減免給他了"},{"start":332.546,"end":349.478,"text":"然後他從來沒有建立你們行政部門從來沒有建立任何事後去查驗機制來確定你減免叫他不用繳錢了是不是真的有減量 不知道你們這兩個機制是大問題啦所以我今天就直接開門見山跟你講我要討論這兩個問題那臭氧就是國內空氣品質長期無法突破的瓶頸"},{"start":360.346,"end":385.512,"text":"而且你們自己在政策面還要將臭氧8小時紅色警示站的日數改善80%名列為核心的目標跟PM2.5平均濃度並列喔所以你知道 你們都看到問題啦臭氧 臭氧濃度臭氧濃度從來都沒有改善過那我們就根據你們自己的報告啦"},{"start":387.335,"end":414.6,"text":"就是說環境部的報告委託團隊運用美國環保署建置的最大增量反應性資料分析環境部11個光化策站還有國內3個特殊工業區的策站監測54項這個非化那個揮發性就VOCS的個別物種結果明確的你們自己的報告指出"},{"start":415.66,"end":443.066,"text":"就是乙烯丙烯甲本及二甲本為國內臭氧生成潛勢較高的關鍵物種而你們也進一步分析說現行乙烯丙烯都沒有納入空污廢的徵收所以從原料產品燃料及廢氣燃燒塔監測的資訊你們也去初步認為乙烯丙烯其實就簡單的講就是大財團在"},{"start":445.868,"end":452.234,"text":"在排放的比較多啦,就是石化業者啦說比較簡單的就是石化業者所製造排放的乙烯跟丙烯啦那根據美國的MIR值啊他去測國內的特殊性的工業區的測站不管是六清、陵園還有臨海間測站27個站"},{"start":468.79,"end":496.817,"text":"11個官化策戰監測的54個VOCS的個別物種都顯示乙烯丙烯甲苯二甲苯為國內臭氧生成潛勢較高的物種講白話一點臭氧生成潛勢最高這四個物種就是兩個有扣空污費了有兩個沒有就是大財團經營的石化業乙烯丙烯那在這個"},{"start":498.058,"end":499.301,"text":"報告裡面也講出了這個"},{"start":501.195,"end":528.807,"text":"政策的缺口你們報告寫出了令人覺得匪夷所思的建議的處置他說 你們自己的報告匪夷所思啦 我認為不合理 我不會說的啦但是他也是感謝啦 第一他說現階段並沒有徵收高臭氧潛勢物種的案例這騙人的 這國國就有 不要說沒有 美國就有啊第二 尚缺乏污染源排放資料"},{"start":529.807,"end":556.159,"text":"所以建議更多污染源排放資料研究後再行評估收費的可行性阿你自己這份報告保證你稍微講一下感情真的沒資料沒有國內污染源的排放資料嗎我剛剛講六清臨源臨海監測站這些都沒排放資料嗎好 包委員因為我沒有看到這份報告是不是請我們市長來報告好"},{"start":558.649,"end":581.164,"text":"各位委員報告有關那個乙烯丙烯的部分的確我們在報告裡面也指出它是可能是高臭氧淺氏的一個物種所以我們其實有在討論要把它納入空肺還有含酸的排放這的確我們最近有在討論要納入那至於它的排放現況的確過去的調查是比較不足這也跟委員報告的確是這樣好 來 博定我告訴你你書中都亂說啦亂說啦這個排放資料非常的充足啊"},{"start":589.045,"end":616.99,"text":"缺乏排放資料你們認為你們都講了石化業是可能的排放對象我再講一次喔臭氧的濃度都沒有改善臭氧是空氣污染最大的關鍵而乙烯丙烯甲苯這個是臭氧前去物最關鍵的物質有兩種沒有課稅沒有課費你們也知道了那我現在告訴你就這麼幾個地方集中在高雄林園大社仁武六清"},{"start":619.055,"end":623.232,"text":"這幾個區域公司場所的清澈一清二楚"},{"start":625.658,"end":649.146,"text":"這幾個地方你想要掌握資料你就依空污防治法第21條要求業者申報然後在1、2、12條進行稽查這還需要研究什麼空污法第16條第一項規定各級主管機關得對排放空氣污染物的固定污染源及移動污染源徵收空污費嘛第17條講說這個中央主管機關訂定收費的這個費率"},{"start":654.088,"end":671.082,"text":"那你們第三條空屋費的房子費的收費辦法第三條名列收費的物種所以你們在112年10月剛修正公告綠與稀還有一三丁二稀還有丙稀精三個個別物種增列了"},{"start":671.903,"end":691.35,"text":"那你們第二期合訂的第二期方案就講說臭氧8小時紅色警示站改善80%列為最重要的這個改善政策如果你的政策目標是改善臭氧工具卻完全迴避關鍵的污染源這也不對嘛所以你再怎麼樣去改善你的臭氧的這一個減量"},{"start":695.051,"end":704.698,"text":"那你就要從他的前去物質開始著手而剛剛講說你們研議要收費以息併息收費那你現在告訴我們政策上到底會不會收包委我們這個趕快來研議一下因為"},{"start":709.915,"end":725.182,"text":"對啊 要不要 研議要研議多久 都知道了 排放物質 排放叫這些業者申報就那幾個地方而已嘛 六清嘛 林園大社 仁武嘛你先這個大戶先盤點一下就知道了盤點一下就知道量了"},{"start":729.262,"end":746.708,"text":"這應該很容易吧這一個月就盤點出來了一個月盤點出來以後就知道要課費了吧我們趕快來處理這件事情所以我現在再跟你就教一個就是說你們我剛剛講的說啊"},{"start":752.148,"end":760.847,"text":"空污絕免辦法17年沒有修年均12件申請而且核發後不查驗"},{"start":762.543,"end":791.066,"text":"你們這樣子的狀況你們自己也有報告也有指出啊減免辦法到現在至今17年平均年申請12件薄回率33%其中購置成本減免194件耗材費用減免9件而已所以都用我購置新的設備可以減少空屋排放量可以減少可是我們現在問題就是說啊"},{"start":794.833,"end":815.983,"text":"你們現行業者在使用減免額度期間沒有相關驗證的機制導致無法確保操作的防治設備處理效率是不是符合他們申請的時候的核定的操作條件換句話說你們的報告也指出"},{"start":817.023,"end":832.812,"text":"要重新檢視減免辦法現行遭遇的問題 針對減量效果不彰的原因進行分析提出對應的修正的規劃 使政策得以發揮最大的減量效益 你們自己報告也曾經這麼說所以我們現在講說 欸 說到北 過去17年"},{"start":838.155,"end":843.18,"text":"任何一家公司場所只要通過減免辦法的你們的事前審查就取得了減免減免他空屋費的額度然後就開始抵扣了但是你們環境部從來沒有去回頭查驗"},{"start":855.533,"end":878.006,"text":"這些申請減免抵扣的廠商他們裝設 號稱要去買新的防治設備這個防治設備有沒有正常運作有沒有達到當時承諾時的處理效率現在部長 環境部將如果被過去已經核發的減免案件進行追溯性的查核呢"},{"start":880.016,"end":902.952,"text":"現在這是問題啊 保廣你承不承認這樣是有問題的聽起來我是有問題 但是我會回去看一下委員提到的那個報告喔 對的確啊 這個都是根據您報告講的包委員 過去的那個查核因為審查是地方審查 所以有地方會去做查核那申請的案件的確不多 去年就是一年大概12件地方政府有沒有在查核啦地方政府會有那麼多人力可以查核嗎"},{"start":909.557,"end":920.31,"text":"不可能啦 不能查核啦如果你們現在開始去追溯查核喔專案喔如果查核發現實際處理的效率不符合申請的條件"},{"start":921.994,"end":944.485,"text":"那請問環境部 你有沒有既有截免案件啟動追溯查核以外 便依截免辦法及相關法制機制辦理撤銷追繳和補繳的機制 有沒有機制是 如果查核到它是不實的話 我們當然可以追繳回來什麼叫不實 它沒有在使用 買一買沒有在用啦 因為成本太高啦蛤 這樣這不是不實耶 這是沒利用的"},{"start":946.906,"end":966.07,"text":"他跟他原來提出的那個內容不一致啊內容不一致那可不可以追要求重新追繳補繳可以嗎可以啊你們要不要專案去查一年才12件17年來申請了這個多少件194加9203件17年來才203件所以203件專案審查可以嗎"},{"start":976.364,"end":995.213,"text":"我們專案來做這個調查專案去做調查好到時候要追繳補繳喔好 保店你要承諾啊可以我們來這個做這件事情因為委員說到的可能是一個未來治理的一個很大的這個我們目前如果說這個是確定是一個漏洞的話我們的確就是漏洞啊"},{"start":996.474,"end":1005.799,"text":"和你來申請衛生設備可以遞減 免得交空務費可以扣掉這樣到底有在用設備嗎 設備有在操作嗎 可以操作嗎不知道 到底排放量有沒有減少 不知道我們現在把人家罵 他們罵把人家說嘛大家都走這條路要怎麼辦 專案查核好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}