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12:45:32","會議時間":"2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等43人擬具「空氣污染防制法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「空氣污染防制法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.86096875,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.13909375,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.665968750000001,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.488468750000003,"end":35.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.62034375,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.96534375,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.72346875,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.22409375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":96.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.91034375000001,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.75096875000001,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.06159375000001,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.96971875,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.22409375,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.02971875,"end":233.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.63159375,"end":234.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.06596875000002,"end":236.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.66909375,"end":238.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.72784375,"end":239.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.02284375000002,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.59596875000003,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.32096875000002,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.01284375000003,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.80909375,"end":277.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.64596875,"end":277.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.28721875,"end":278.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.06346875,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.44284375,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.54784375,"end":286.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.65284375000005,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.77971875000003,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.62159375000005,"end":366.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.74159375000005,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.04471875,"end":373.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.93034375,"end":381.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.79409375,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.91221875,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.61471875,"end":400.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.68596875000003,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.54221875,"end":401.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.36471875,"end":408.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.52409375,"end":410.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.19034375,"end":419.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.83034375000005,"end":429.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.38159375000004,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.39346875,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.04721875,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.06346875,"end":453.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.24034375,"end":442.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.29471875,"end":445.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.98534375,"end":458.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.96346875,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.28284375000004,"end":467.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.03346875000005,"end":470.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.05846875000003,"end":474.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.08346875,"end":474.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.11721875,"end":474.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.16784375000003,"end":474.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.30284375,"end":479.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.43284375,"end":480.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.78721875,"end":483.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.24659375000005,"end":485.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.30534375,"end":485.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.35596875000005,"end":485.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.14909375,"end":487.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.58346875,"end":490.50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謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長有請彭部長部長 我們今天也是針對我們空污防治法那目的當然是為了維持我們的空氣品質維護國人的健康跟生活環境那我們台灣也在希望在2050年進行排放"},{"start":32.563,"end":58.812,"text":"那當然最主要我們現在要做的都是減碳嘛那針對目前來講部長對於2050淨零排放有信心嗎很挑戰啊非常挑戰因為這個現在可能現在的工具都沒有辦法達到淨零碳排需要未來這幾年有新的突破所以我目前看好像很多各項的進度並沒有按照那個時程去走所以2050其實就像部長講的"},{"start":60.287,"end":85.241,"text":"不是很挑戰 幾乎我看是不太容易因為它是一個還有25年要達到的目標那我們只能說現在2030、2035我們可以達到的原來設定的目標趕快往那個地方衝那我也必須說2030、2035那個目標都是登月計畫這麼的難可是我們現在如果2050年我們不下一個重視要往前做的話那現在2030、2035根本達不到"},{"start":87.222,"end":101.842,"text":"對啊 所以我覺得我們在各項還是要朝著目標來前進像這個本席之前也有質詢過像我們整個環境部針對裡面我覺得我們碳排最高目前最需要改善的而且"},{"start":102.382,"end":127.44,"text":"不單是碳排高而且它這個也對我們民眾的健康有很大的關係那就是我們每天在路上跑的這個柴油垃圾車我們現在知道我們下垃圾車啊都是柴油在路上跑那它本身它這個高碳排而且又是柴油所以它你看我們每公升柴油可以產生2.5到2.6公斤的二氧化碳"},{"start":128.16,"end":147.528,"text":"那相當於我們發兩度電或者燃燒0.5公斤的垃圾所產生的碳排所以這個垃圾車跟資源回收車它又是整天在我們大街小巷穿梭而且又是怠速所以那這一部分到底有沒有納入我們淨零排放的"},{"start":149.007,"end":170.305,"text":"規劃裡面包委員這個我們只有提到部分的事辦例如說未來電動車的比例要到多少因為現在未來財化法過後這些的工作是在地方政府垃圾車的購買是地方政府要負擔做這個事那我們前幾個禮拜我有聽我同仁跟我報告就是說未來對電動垃圾車的規劃那目前的確是第一個費用太高"},{"start":170.805,"end":196.338,"text":"然後我們也用了各種減碳或是增量抵換的方式算進去還是有一段的差距所以我們還在算這個到底它的財務狀況是怎麼樣我們當然是希望說如果老舊的新購的垃圾車就可以買一些新的例如說電動的或是比較更環保的一個車那目前我們一直在收集全世界到底有沒有這個案例不過目前也跟委員坦承還不多但是我們現在會要努力來做"},{"start":196.678,"end":208.148,"text":"所以我們之前才用垃圾車後來好像就是為了減碳有做這個低碳垃圾車那它就是改善它的電動壓縮艙還有主要讓這個垃圾車能夠氫化"},{"start":212.492,"end":232.646,"text":"但是重點它還是柴油車所以還是會排放二氧化碳所以這對於我們全面淨零其實還有一大段的目標那尤其我們看我們目標2030市區公車要全面電動化2040小客車機車全面電動化那到現在其實據我們了解從2016到2026其實我們"},{"start":241.055,"end":263.573,"text":"看到我們在推廣這個電動車還沒有電動車好像只是幾台在試辦試用那我們現在主要在改善是低碳的垃圾車那從2016到2026我們看全國好像也只有1864輛那大概也直到我們"},{"start":264.173,"end":280.737,"text":"全國的三成所以連低碳垃圾車我們離目標都還很遠現在大概是我們台灣到處在跑的這個垃圾車有七成還是最原始的才有垃圾車所以照我們這樣來講不單2050淨零排放很遠連這個低碳垃圾車都還很遙遠"},{"start":286.898,"end":302.234,"text":"包委員因為這個低碳垃圾車它比電動公車還距離有一段差距因為它的重量比較多然後它每天要跑大概100公里左右所以我們的確有算過目前還是關鍵在於這個裁員上面"},{"start":302.754,"end":323.617,"text":"因為目前呢包含了這個交通部現在的裁員上也遇到很大的壓力例如說公車全面電動化也遇到很大的挑戰因為現在的這個價格跟原來的燒柴油的其實是有一段的價差那這個通常過去都是用補貼的方式所以未來如果說要照委員的建議納入多元垃圾處理的計畫第三期的話"},{"start":324.398,"end":349.715,"text":"我們可以來想辦法但是這個預算的爭取現在遇到一些很大的挑戰當然我們心裡面是期待有這樣的做法所以目前我知道說可能很難做得到所以一直不斷的跟同仁討論有沒有一些租賃的新的一個做法能夠來達成這樣的目標好那剛剛我們有講到我們這10年全國低氮垃圾車只有1800多台然後後來我們去環管署的網站我們去了解了一下它這個數據很奇怪"},{"start":352.537,"end":369.651,"text":"113年8月底,環管署的業務上面就寫全國第一攤垃圾車有1864輛,那比例是23.6%結果在9月多,他的新聞稿又說截至8月底第一攤垃圾車只有1550輛,可是他比例變成28%"},{"start":374.314,"end":396.127,"text":"數量減少結果比例變大這環廣署這網站這到底發生什麼問題啊這個我們要去瞭解一下因為這個他的第一單垃圾車應該指的是那個壓縮機或是他的輕斗在處理的過程當中是用電池喔不是用這個燒柴油來去做處理我猜他的定義是這樣"},{"start":397.848,"end":409.642,"text":"還是要注意一下這公布的網站這個車輛減少結果比例增加然後一樣我們也看了一下113年8月底說累計節省了1102萬公升的油耗然後減少31700公噸的排碳"},{"start":418.072,"end":432.842,"text":"結果九月新聞稿在發的時候又變成節省530萬公升的油耗減少14700公噸的排碳我不知道這個都是我們同單位出來的自己前後矛盾這個"},{"start":434.483,"end":450.107,"text":"叫大家到底看哪一個數據才是對的這個我會回去瞭解一下再給委員正確的答案對啊 希望這個部長跟環管署這部分也多加注意一下好 謝謝委員那我們現在多元垃圾處理計畫第二期有編列換購低碳垃圾車400輛總經費16億"},{"start":454.068,"end":480.461,"text":"那這16億都有花到買這低碳垃圾車上面嗎他們就是所謂的這個這個壓縮還有這個漏斗這樣輕導著這個功能是屬於電池的所以不是用一直在柴油在運轉的因為等於不用整個柴油嘛就是它的壓縮艙的部分把它做成電動這樣子至少減少柴油的用量那這部分"},{"start":481.661,"end":504.078,"text":"這經費有全部用在這一方面上面嗎應該是都用在這個部分啦因為我們希望我們還是要逐步去做啦尤其針對這個垃圾車在大街小巷跑不單是清潔隊員民眾常常跟在垃圾車旁邊這個碳排這麼高對民眾的健康真的很大的疑慮"},{"start":508.644,"end":528.435,"text":"還有我們看了一下我們市面上其實電動垃圾車的廠商其實我們看就不只一家可是我不瞭解為什麼我們環境部只有找一家特定廠商的車款在做示範連這計畫書裡面也都只有針對這一家"},{"start":531.517,"end":551.685,"text":"那這個並沒有辦法去做多元而且我看它都是做6立方米我們現在市面上幾乎都是8立方米那為什麼做6立方米而且那麼多廠家為什麼只做那一家那你只做那一家它的各方面的數據是不是就變得比較狹隘那數據未必能夠完整"},{"start":552.045,"end":581.036,"text":"好謝謝我的建議因為其實前幾個禮拜我有聽他們跟我做簡報有談到這個問題那我也有下了一個指示希望說他們可以公開的讓大家提出更好的方案那如果方案對的話政府可以有一些補助來研發加速這個狀況進行因為現在的情況是我同仁報給我的數字其實電動的全面電動化的車跟這個傳統的車大概價錢大概多了一倍所以這個財務模式沒有辦法起來所以我要他們想辦法把這個差距可以縮到最小"},{"start":581.556,"end":608.811,"text":"所以我們希望他可以更開放的讓大家能夠進來甚至也不必限制說只有國內的國外的如果好的也可以拿來做使用對啊因為據我們了解現在國外很多都是全電動的熱車已經有了然後我們那時候問我們環境部好像說什麼對電動熱車什麼價格太高啦還有一方面什麼他的跑這個里程能夠跑多遠等等我後來聽了好幾家"},{"start":610.012,"end":636.46,"text":"外面也看了很多廠商他說這些方面他們基本上都克服並不是像環境部講的那麼的困難是委員的話我也跟我同仁講過就是說外面的這個房車電動車都比油車便宜了所以你不該給我看到一個數字這個電動的垃圾車比油車貴一倍所以我認為這個不應該這樣所以我請他們再調查所以我們擔心就是你像那麼多廠商結果我們只找一家那"},{"start":639.701,"end":665.962,"text":"這個國際國外電動垃圾車早就已經他們都已經試營運這麼久很多早就正式上路那連我們國內據我們了解他說這些問題都可以克服結果我擔心環境部只有得到這一家的訊息那你去做試驗也只做這一家只有這一家的數據那其他的廠家都說這些都可以克服啊包含價格等等所以我希望環境部應該要"},{"start":666.963,"end":691.283,"text":"多元去找更多的廠家來去試驗然後去找這些數據包含價格啦還有它的功能性能等等是不是應該多元化不應該想要我看只有一家二維我們是開放的讓多元的來解決這個問題就很像說電動車一定要有一個市場的機制讓多元的進來才可以把價格降下來我們才可以普及來做使用"},{"start":691.863,"end":706.553,"text":"好那希望部長我們針對這個部分我們找更多的規格然後延期工作報告來也希望能夠盡快朝這個目標來邁進可以可以謝謝委員的建議謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝投薪局委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}