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屏東就是他鄰近高雄是這個重工業的地區然後他的工廠是我們屏東的六倍造成我們屏東的污染其實有三分之一都來自高雄 相當於地方政府我覺得這個我們在修二十七二十八的話是不是因為屏東自己沒有污染源可是卻要去分享高雄飄過來的廢棄我的意思是說對我們地方政府有沒有直接封殺這個三分之一的高污染這些"},{"start":160.751,"end":187.641,"text":"途徑我是覺得應該要想辦法解決這方面的問題向委員報告 其實空服法在修法以後已經有空氣污染防治計畫要求各縣市提出提出的時候就有類似像委員所垂詢的上下峰的關聯因此他在提相關的計畫的時候就要跟上峰處的相關的來做討論那我們也稱為這個類似像好鄰居條款也就是大家要彼此共同努力來做這個空氣污染防治的工作"},{"start":188.001,"end":189.123,"text":"好謝謝那現在請經濟部次長賴次長謝謝"},{"start":196.618,"end":219.447,"text":"好委員好我們先針對新達電廠4號燃煤機就說我們我們不預設他是違法可是也不否認電力系統需要一些備援的測試我要問的是如果說燃煤機組已經定位為緊急備用他的測試頻率測試時數啊啟動條件排放的監測地方政府的事前參與是否比要比一般的機組更透明更嚴格"},{"start":220.007,"end":235.484,"text":"事實上台電公司一直遵循剛剛委員所說的部分第一個透明的部分因為它在進行這個測試事實上之前就已經有得到能源署的許可一個排程去做測試第二個部分啟動的這個時機因為這個機組的話它是備用機組它啟動的這個真正啟動的時機"},{"start":242.031,"end":258.622,"text":"必須要在備轉容量率在8%以下的時候才會啟動那委員剛剛談的那個事情是試運轉因為一個電廠總是要維持一個它隨時可以上場的一個狀態它才有辦法達到它的備用的一個情況這個60個小時"},{"start":261.024,"end":274.073,"text":"的這個部分雖然說他在試運轉但是台電也會遵循對地方的承諾把他記在備用機組的720個小時裡面來去進行這個事情所以基本上第一個"},{"start":275.623,"end":291.022,"text":"他是有排成的去做測試第二個他是資訊公開第三個的部分的話是他在處理的時候他還是有遵循未來的處理他還是會遵循他備用機組的一個規定那我的想法是說是不是"},{"start":292.123,"end":299.087,"text":"第一就是緊急備用燃機的測試時數有沒有一個中立的一致標準測試期間如果他併連發電的話是不是納入720小時計算第三測試期間的這個停跟停機的排放短時間高濃度曝露啊PM2.5流氧化物啊"},{"start":313.015,"end":339.07,"text":"氧化物這些資料是否能夠及時公開公開 第四就是地方政府是否可以在空氣不良季節三級紡織區等地方負荷已經很高的時候要求縮短測試期時間提高監測頻率或附加更加的嚴格操作條件我是覺得說如果這些答案都不清楚的話就代表我們這28條或相關執法至少需要補上緊急備用燃煤機組的特別管理規則"},{"start":340.117,"end":364.645,"text":"那第一個台電公司事實上他都有一些所謂的SIMS的一個系統去監測所有剛剛委員所詢問的一個地方這第一個那第二個部分的話我剛剛有說明了台電在啟動這些的測試的一個狀況都有一個嚴謹的條件跟作業規範第三個問題是回答到委員所提到的這個測試的時間是不是要"},{"start":367.726,"end":389.367,"text":"訂一個定場的規劃 事實上每一個電廠都是一個非常獨立的他運轉的時間 他機組的形式 他需要測試的一個時間我們認為台電事實上在全世界的所有的電業的這個經營上面他的管理的績效相當的不錯那這個部分是尊重台電對個別電廠的這個要求"},{"start":391.849,"end":406.988,"text":"好那針對8000家廠商受到衝擊這個部分想說擔心地方政府兩個月內未完成審查就可能造成停工斷鏈連續運轉設備不可逆這些損失我想說當然是軍重經濟部提出這些產業衝擊評估也同意說"},{"start":408.57,"end":424.237,"text":"而連續製程不能隨便停工但我要問的說這8000家廠家是否全部都因為第27283條修法而立刻停工是否全部都是高污染的燃料使用者是否全部都有連續製程不可逆的一些停工風險"},{"start":425.437,"end":446.662,"text":"我先跟委員說明啦這些會影響的大部分固定污染源都是屬於鍋爐的那鍋爐的部分透過燃料把它轉換成熱能不管是在做殺菌不管是食品的業者或是醫院來去做提供一些包括這個什麼什麼冷氣啊或是消毒的這一些的設備但是"},{"start":449.246,"end":475.907,"text":"每一個廠商從高科技一直到食品加工業或是肉品的加工業他的投資絕對不會是兩年他設備構置的時候他就有一定的這個所謂的一個實現這是我必須要說明的第二點我要說明的事情是說照目前各委員版本所提出來的這個草案一個非科則與廠商的責任"},{"start":478.864,"end":498.485,"text":"卻是要廠商去負擔所有的風險這有點似乎有點違背了所謂法律的信賴保護的原則那最後一點我要跟委員說明的部分兩年期限一到期限到之前我要申請展延"},{"start":499.605,"end":522.894,"text":"然後期限到的話我要兩年那這中間很快的我馬上拿到一個許可證我馬上又要再申請我們整天就在補這個事情那廠商要不要生產?當然要生產啊那事實上我們在去年這個任性的條例裡面我們已經輔導廠商做很多的設備太範"},{"start":524.475,"end":535.809,"text":"當他做了這些的設備貸款他也取得相關的所謂的操作的許可的時候那不應該把所謂的非苛責於他的這個責任的這個風險讓這個廠商來承擔這個是我們最擔憂的是這8000多家"},{"start":543.331,"end":557.829,"text":"事實上不僅只有電液依照我們的所有的空氣污染排放清澈來看的話電液占全國的固定污染源的部分只有一個小小的部分但其他的還有高科技啊半導體啊"},{"start":558.83,"end":586.542,"text":"食品 醫院因為時間的關係我是想說當然就是要請經濟部釐清的地方就是只有部分涉及高污染產料部分涉及連續製程部分涉及展延預期風險這些我覺得經濟部應該把風險拆開而不是把所有的廠商包在一起行程中一修法就要鍛鍊了這個印象請問經濟部有沒有把8000家能夠分成幾類真正使用生煤 燃油SRF等"},{"start":587.102,"end":610.045,"text":"污染跟爭議性的燃料有多少未在三級反制區總量管制區的有多少屬於連續運轉一旦停工有不可逆損失的有多少近五年有重大違規紀錄需要加嚴管理者有多少透過改善企業設備升級燃料替代率可以降低的衝擊的有多少我是覺得應該做一些順便的補充資料給我們"},{"start":610.585,"end":638.624,"text":"這個我們就經濟部所主管的產業的部分我們會那還有其他的包括屬於衛福部啦醫院這些我們也會希望說委員會裡面針對於所有的這個行業別大家審慎來思考說如何進行對我們國家的空氣污染是會比較好而對廠商他經營的不可預期的風險可以降低然後把廠商的信心留在台灣這個是我們"},{"start":641.265,"end":661.513,"text":"希望說在委員會裡面必須要去審慎去處理現在所提出來的那最後我要跟委員講的重視依照現行的法規事實上不管是PM2.5的減量的部分或是整個空污的總量的這個減少的部分"},{"start":663.289,"end":677.397,"text":"這個目前的這個減量的成果我們據我們的統計大概差不多有7萬7千公噸左右PM2.5減少了20%以上那這個部分我們希望說是有序的來進行"},{"start":678.638,"end":703.555,"text":"所以在我們的所謂淨零碳排放的這個路徑裡面經濟部也會有相關的政策工具來協助廠商做設備的汰換甚至搭配一些循環經濟的一個作為來讓我們這個國家的環境跟產業的生產環境是更好那我期待的是說廠商是一個穩定的環境是一個可預期的過程裡面這樣子的話"},{"start":704.315,"end":719.049,"text":"或許針對於產業的發展對於環境的保護可能會是更好那另外還有修法還有一點就是把廠商自主減量的他可以提出來的申請的這個時機這個可能性把它降低"},{"start":719.85,"end":739.547,"text":"那這個部分完全要由一個所謂的比較不確定性的一個概念或是由政府來提出來需求這反而沒有辦法讓廠商自己依照他的這個經營計畫跟他對於社會的責任然後去提出一個減量做一些行為的改變"},{"start":740.568,"end":755.452,"text":"這邊建議是說我們的信息制度可能不夠積極所以還是希望能夠做一些產業轉型配套版的建議比如說包括燃料替代 設備改善 改善起輔助輔導與中央地方的協調一個機制出來這樣的話會認為說這個制度上面會更完善這樣"},{"start":761.013,"end":783.202,"text":"所以我跟委員講以台中市為例的話其實台中市近幾年來是不是減少這個排放的部分大概減少了16%左右那很多的都是台中電廠他花了很多的這個經費去把這些所謂的減污的這個部分把它做好但是我們把整體台中市"},{"start":784.451,"end":805.898,"text":"的一個減量的部分扣掉台電的話那整體的這個排放還有增加那我們是要看說除了台電之外所有有有固定污染源的大家應該為齊心為了台灣這個環境一起來努力但是這些廠商沒有辦法及時去改變或是在他原來的這個操作許可之下"},{"start":806.618,"end":829.901,"text":"他經營的事實的環境這個現實的狀況我們必須要逐一去釐清其他的廠商啊比如說像焚化爐啊為什麼他為什麼不能減排我想他很願意去做可能他也有他的困難這個就是我們希望說在執行面上面法規面給他穩定的一個基礎執行面上面我們考慮到真正"},{"start":830.862,"end":858.826,"text":"可務實可執行的這樣子會對整個環境會更好好謝謝市長再請彭部長最後就針對第30條的部分再請教一個問題就是說許可政長言就是我們覺得應該建立風險分級不是說一律說短到兩年也不是要求每兩年重新大幅改造它的設備啦我覺得本席主張的是風險分級的概念你低風險跟高風險當然一定不一樣嘛所以我希望"},{"start":859.526,"end":869.438,"text":"環境部能夠研議對高風險污染源展演的時候它可以提出的改善計畫加嚴監測和減排放總量或者是縮短展演的期間"},{"start":871.724,"end":897.13,"text":"這個我們會來研議一下啦不過就是說因為這個涉及到8000多家公司所以要如何訂出來一個一定是跨部會來協商我們會來討論這個事情那現在審核的機關運營35天內完成實質審查這個相關規定既然有這個35天的審查要求那實際上預期的案件大概有多少有掌握嗎有一年這幾年都幾百件"},{"start":899.332,"end":918.529,"text":"那是不是有些縣市他的特別有不足的地方因為說像以高雄他的這個許可證就要幾千張所以他對他來說就壓力特別大所以我覺得這種審查量能不足的話中央是不是應該補足他的人力啊技術啊標準化的審查工具啊讓他能夠加速他的審查"},{"start":919.91,"end":934.959,"text":"因為這個東西涉及到整個環境的人力的嚴重不足因為現在外面的我們環境人力都很優秀當外面科技業都在挖人的時候我們流動率也很高所以這個東西如果一做的話按照現在是很難啦但是"},{"start":935.439,"end":952.632,"text":"我也贊同說未來如果有更好的方法可以來做但是現在來做的確是有點挑戰所以這個未來的確是可以來探討因為像現在以高雄或是桃園桃園都是這兩個都是比較多的那當然他們的工廠數也比較多也是主要一個原因可能省不完啦"},{"start":953.853,"end":968.587,"text":"所以有幾個折增方向讓部長參考就是業者如果準時且完整申請沒有重大違規可以暫時有條件的延續操作第二就是讓業者延遲補正資料不完整會有重大違規就不應該享有同樣的保障"},{"start":969.287,"end":993.672,"text":"第三個就是主管機關預期未完成審查因公開預期原因案件進度於預定的準薄期限第四預期期限延續期間的不得增加排放量必要增加延堅測加延堅測或者是說附加臨時操作的條件這就是我其他責任的一個方向讓部長參考好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}