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屏東就是他鄰近高雄是這個重工業的地區然後他的工廠是我們屏東的六倍造成我們屏東的污染其實有三分之一都來自高雄 相當於地方政府我覺得這個我們在修二十七二十八的話是不是因為屏東自己沒有污染源可是卻要去分享高雄飄過來的廢棄我的意思是說對我們地方政府有沒有直接封殺這個三分之一的高污染這些"},{"start":160.751,"end":187.641,"text":"途徑我是覺得應該要想辦法解決這方面的問題向委員報告 其實空服法在修法以後已經有空氣污染防治計畫要求各縣市提出提出的時候就有類似像委員所垂詢的上下峰的關聯因此他在提相關的計畫的時候就要跟上峰處的相關的來做討論那我們也稱為這個類似像好鄰居條款也就是大家要彼此共同努力來做這個空氣污染防治的工作"},{"start":188.001,"end":189.123,"text":"好謝謝那現在請經濟部次長賴次長謝謝"},{"start":196.618,"end":219.447,"text":"好委員好我們先針對新達電廠4號燃煤機就說我們我們不預設他是違法可是也不否認電力系統需要一些備援的測試我要問的是如果說燃煤機組已經定位為緊急備用他的測試頻率測試時數啊啟動條件排放的監測地方政府的事前參與是否比要比一般的機組更透明更嚴格"},{"start":220.007,"end":235.484,"text":"事實上台電公司一直遵循剛剛委員所說的部分第一個透明的部分因為它在進行這個測試事實上之前就已經有得到能源署的許可一個排程去做測試第二個部分啟動的這個時機因為這個機組的話它是備用機組它啟動的這個真正啟動的時機"},{"start":242.031,"end":258.622,"text":"必須要在備轉容量率在8%以下的時候才會啟動那委員剛剛談的那個事情是試運轉因為一個電廠總是要維持一個它隨時可以上場的一個狀態它才有辦法達到它的備用的一個情況這個60個小時"},{"start":261.024,"end":274.073,"text":"的這個部分雖然說他在試運轉但是台電也會遵循對地方的承諾把他記在備用機組的720個小時裡面來去進行這個事情所以基本上第一個"},{"start":275.623,"end":291.022,"text":"他是有排成的去做測試第二個他是資訊公開第三個的部分的話是他在處理的時候他還是有遵循未來的處理他還是會遵循他備用機組的一個規定那我的想法是說是不是"},{"start":292.123,"end":299.087,"text":"第一就是緊急備用燃機的測試時數有沒有一個中立的一致標準測試期間如果他併連發電的話是不是納入720小時計算第三測試期間的這個停跟停機的排放短時間高濃度曝露啊PM2.5流氧化物啊"},{"start":313.015,"end":339.07,"text":"氧化物這些資料是否能夠及時公開公開 第四就是地方政府是否可以在空氣不良季節三級紡織區等地方負荷已經很高的時候要求縮短測試期時間提高監測頻率或附加更加的嚴格操作條件我是覺得說如果這些答案都不清楚的話就代表我們這28條或相關執法至少需要補上緊急備用燃煤機組的特別管理規則"},{"start":340.117,"end":364.645,"text":"那第一個台電公司事實上他都有一些所謂的SIMS的一個系統去監測所有剛剛委員所詢問的一個地方這第一個那第二個部分的話我剛剛有說明了台電在啟動這些的測試的一個狀況都有一個嚴謹的條件跟作業規範第三個問題是回答到委員所提到的這個測試的時間是不是要"},{"start":367.726,"end":389.367,"text":"訂一個定場的規劃 事實上每一個電廠都是一個非常獨立的他運轉的時間 他機組的形式 他需要測試的一個時間我們認為台電事實上在全世界的所有的電業的這個經營上面他的管理的績效相當的不錯那這個部分是尊重台電對個別電廠的這個要求"},{"start":391.849,"end":406.988,"text":"好那針對8000家廠商受到衝擊這個部分想說擔心地方政府兩個月內未完成審查就可能造成停工斷鏈連續運轉設備不可逆這些損失我想說當然是軍重經濟部提出這些產業衝擊評估也同意說"},{"start":408.57,"end":424.237,"text":"而連續製程不能隨便停工但我要問的說這8000家廠家是否全部都因為第27283條修法而立刻停工是否全部都是高污染的燃料使用者是否全部都有連續製程不可逆的一些停工風險"},{"start":425.437,"end":446.662,"text":"我先跟委員說明啦這些會影響的大部分固定污染源都是屬於鍋爐的那鍋爐的部分透過燃料把它轉換成熱能不管是在做殺菌不管是食品的業者或是醫院來去做提供一些包括這個什麼什麼冷氣啊或是消毒的這一些的設備但是"},{"start":449.246,"end":475.907,"text":"每一個廠商從高科技一直到食品加工業或是肉品的加工業他的投資絕對不會是兩年他設備構置的時候他就有一定的這個所謂的一個實現這是我必須要說明的第二點我要說明的事情是說照目前各委員版本所提出來的這個草案一個非科則與廠商的責任"},{"start":478.864,"end":498.485,"text":"卻是要廠商去負擔所有的風險這有點似乎有點違背了所謂法律的信賴保護的原則那最後一點我要跟委員說明的部分兩年期限一到期限到之前我要申請展延"},{"start":499.605,"end":522.894,"text":"然後期限到的話我要兩年那這中間很快的我馬上拿到一個許可證我馬上又要再申請我們整天就在補這個事情那廠商要不要生產?當然要生產啊那事實上我們在去年這個任性的條例裡面我們已經輔導廠商做很多的設備太範"},{"start":524.475,"end":535.809,"text":"當他做了這些的設備貸款他也取得相關的所謂的操作的許可的時候那不應該把所謂的非苛責於他的這個責任的這個風險讓這個廠商來承擔這個是我們最擔憂的是這8000多家"},{"start":543.331,"end":557.829,"text":"事實上不僅只有電液依照我們的所有的空氣污染排放清澈來看的話電液占全國的固定污染源的部分只有一個小小的部分但其他的還有高科技啊半導體啊"},{"start":558.83,"end":586.542,"text":"食品 醫院因為時間的關係我是想說當然就是要請經濟部釐清的地方就是只有部分涉及高污染產料部分涉及連續製程部分涉及展延預期風險這些我覺得經濟部應該把風險拆開而不是把所有的廠商包在一起行程中一修法就要鍛鍊了這個印象請問經濟部有沒有把8000家能夠分成幾類真正使用生煤 燃油SRF等"},{"start":587.102,"end":610.045,"text":"污染跟爭議性的燃料有多少未在三級反制區總量管制區的有多少屬於連續運轉一旦停工有不可逆損失的有多少近五年有重大違規紀錄需要加嚴管理者有多少透過改善企業設備升級燃料替代率可以降低的衝擊的有多少我是覺得應該做一些順便的補充資料給我們"},{"start":610.585,"end":638.624,"text":"這個我們就經濟部所主管的產業的部分我們會那還有其他的包括屬於衛福部啦醫院這些我們也會希望說委員會裡面針對於所有的這個行業別大家審慎來思考說如何進行對我們國家的空氣污染是會比較好而對廠商他經營的不可預期的風險可以降低然後把廠商的信心留在台灣這個是我們"},{"start":641.265,"end":661.513,"text":"希望說在委員會裡面必須要去審慎去處理現在所提出來的那最後我要跟委員講的重視依照現行的法規事實上不管是PM2.5的減量的部分或是整個空污的總量的這個減少的部分"},{"start":663.289,"end":677.397,"text":"這個目前的這個減量的成果我們據我們的統計大概差不多有7萬7千公噸左右PM2.5減少了20%以上那這個部分我們希望說是有序的來進行"},{"start":678.638,"end":703.555,"text":"所以在我們的所謂淨零碳排放的這個路徑裡面經濟部也會有相關的政策工具來協助廠商做設備的汰換甚至搭配一些循環經濟的一個作為來讓我們這個國家的環境跟產業的生產環境是更好那我期待的是說廠商是一個穩定的環境是一個可預期的過程裡面這樣子的話"},{"start":704.315,"end":719.049,"text":"或許針對於產業的發展對於環境的保護可能會是更好那另外還有修法還有一點就是把廠商自主減量的他可以提出來的申請的這個時機這個可能性把它降低"},{"start":719.85,"end":739.547,"text":"那這個部分完全要由一個所謂的比較不確定性的一個概念或是由政府來提出來需求這反而沒有辦法讓廠商自己依照他的這個經營計畫跟他對於社會的責任然後去提出一個減量做一些行為的改變"},{"start":740.568,"end":755.452,"text":"這邊建議是說我們的信息制度可能不夠積極所以還是希望能夠做一些產業轉型配套版的建議比如說包括燃料替代 設備改善 改善起輔助輔導與中央地方的協調一個機制出來這樣的話會認為說這個制度上面會更完善這樣"},{"start":761.013,"end":783.202,"text":"所以我跟委員講以台中市為例的話其實台中市近幾年來是不是減少這個排放的部分大概減少了16%左右那很多的都是台中電廠他花了很多的這個經費去把這些所謂的減污的這個部分把它做好但是我們把整體台中市"},{"start":784.451,"end":805.898,"text":"的一個減量的部分扣掉台電的話那整體的這個排放還有增加那我們是要看說除了台電之外所有有有固定污染源的大家應該為齊心為了台灣這個環境一起來努力但是這些廠商沒有辦法及時去改變或是在他原來的這個操作許可之下"},{"start":806.618,"end":829.901,"text":"他經營的事實的環境這個現實的狀況我們必須要逐一去釐清其他的廠商啊比如說像焚化爐啊為什麼他為什麼不能減排我想他很願意去做可能他也有他的困難這個就是我們希望說在執行面上面法規面給他穩定的一個基礎執行面上面我們考慮到真正"},{"start":830.862,"end":858.826,"text":"可務實可執行的這樣子會對整個環境會更好好謝謝市長再請彭部長最後就針對第30條的部分再請教一個問題就是說許可政長言就是我們覺得應該建立風險分級不是說一律說短到兩年也不是要求每兩年重新大幅改造它的設備啦我覺得本席主張的是風險分級的概念你低風險跟高風險當然一定不一樣嘛所以我希望"},{"start":859.526,"end":869.438,"text":"環境部能夠研議對高風險污染源展演的時候它可以提出的改善計畫加嚴監測和減排放總量或者是縮短展演的期間"},{"start":871.724,"end":897.13,"text":"這個我們會來研議一下啦不過就是說因為這個涉及到8000多家公司所以要如何訂出來一個一定是跨部會來協商我們會來討論這個事情那現在審核的機關運營35天內完成實質審查這個相關規定既然有這個35天的審查要求那實際上預期的案件大概有多少有掌握嗎有一年這幾年都幾百件"},{"start":899.332,"end":918.529,"text":"那是不是有些縣市他的特別有不足的地方因為說像以高雄他的這個許可證就要幾千張所以他對他來說就壓力特別大所以我覺得這種審查量能不足的話中央是不是應該補足他的人力啊技術啊標準化的審查工具啊讓他能夠加速他的審查"},{"start":919.91,"end":934.959,"text":"因為這個東西涉及到整個環境的人力的嚴重不足因為現在外面的我們環境人力都很優秀當外面科技業都在挖人的時候我們流動率也很高所以這個東西如果一做的話按照現在是很難啦但是"},{"start":935.439,"end":952.632,"text":"我也贊同說未來如果有更好的方法可以來做但是現在來做的確是有點挑戰所以這個未來的確是可以來探討因為像現在以高雄或是桃園桃園都是這兩個都是比較多的那當然他們的工廠數也比較多也是主要一個原因可能省不完啦"},{"start":953.853,"end":968.587,"text":"所以有幾個折增方向讓部長參考就是業者如果準時且完整申請沒有重大違規可以暫時有條件的延續操作第二就是讓業者延遲補正資料不完整會有重大違規就不應該享有同樣的保障"},{"start":969.287,"end":993.672,"text":"第三個就是主管機關預期未完成審查因公開預期原因案件進度於預定的準薄期限第四預期期限延續期間的不得增加排放量必要增加延堅測加延堅測或者是說附加臨時操作的條件這就是我其他責任的一個方向讓部長參考好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:01:16+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:01:18.317000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，現在有請彭部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:01:18.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:01:20.634000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:01:20.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:01:22.951000+08:00","text":"盧委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:01:22.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:01:55.867000+08:00","text":"今天針對這三條，我們當然從昨天還是前天開始就陸續接了很多關心的電話，我也知道大家都承受很大的壓力，不過既然排了這個，還是有幾個問題跟部長請教，就是我們看到地方政府明明掌握某個廠區長期的排放量確實很高，或是它位置在三級防制區、高污染熱區，可是地方政府卻只能等待業者主動提出第二十七條申請，這是否會讓你覺得地方空污治理太過被動？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:01:56.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:02:27.101000+08:00","text":"本席不是要破壞第二十七條原本彈性的精神，也不是主張地方政府可以毫無條件要求所有的廠商減量，但事實上地方政府面對三級防制區還有污染熱源，民眾提起長期陳情的時候，結果它只能等業者自己來申請，或者走第二十條加嚴標準，恐怕這些工具都不夠精準，所以我想請問環境部，如果不同意第二十七條改成地方主管機關可以主動要求業者改善的話，你們本身有沒有替代的方案？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:02:27.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:02:35.524000+08:00","text":"如果在特定條件下讓地方政府可以要求業者提出總量改善計畫，是不是直接變更所有的操作條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:02:36.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:02:44.148000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實第二十條裡面就有給地方這樣的水準、能力來做這件事，是不是請司長來詳細說明？好。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T13:02:44.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:02:54.493000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，在空污法第二十條排放標準的部分，其實就授權地方政府可以因地方的特殊需求來加嚴它的排放標準。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T13:02:55.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:03:26.544000+08:00","text":"第二十七條這個條文最主要是所謂的污染泡制度，它是給予業者彈性說如果一個工廠有好幾根排放管道，但可能有一根做不到或者做得比較不好，可是其他兩根可以做得特別好，所以他可以儘量把做得好的再強化，來抵銷那個做不好的部分，然後讓整體的排放量能夠下降，原來第二十七條的精神是這樣，而這個精神也是跟美國清空法在設計的精神是一樣的。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:03:27.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:03:38.747000+08:00","text":"像早上蘇清泉委員講到屏東，屏東它鄰近高雄市重工業的地區，然後它的工廠是我們屏東的6倍，造成我們屏東的污染有三分之一都來自高雄。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:03:39.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:03:50.350000+08:00","text":"現在在地方政府，我覺得我們在修第二十七條、第二十八條的話，是不是因為屏東自己沒有污染源，可是卻要去分享或者吸高雄飄過來的廢氣？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:03:50.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:03:57.151000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，對我們地方政府來說，有沒有直接封殺上風處的高污染這些途徑？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:03:57.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:00.132000+08:00","text":"我是覺得應該要想辦法解決這方面的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:00.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:23.621000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，其實空污法在修法以後，已經有空氣污染防制計畫要求各縣市提出，提出的時候就有類似委員所垂詢的上下風的關聯，因此它在提相關計畫的時候就要跟上風處相關的來做討論，我們稱這個類似像好鄰居條款，也就是大家要彼此共同努力來做空氣污染防制的工作。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:24.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:24.242000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:24.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:25.123000+08:00","text":"現在請經濟部賴次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:32.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:33.098000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:33.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:37.820000+08:00","text":"我們先針對興達電廠4號燃煤機，我們不預設它是違法啦！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:38.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:04:55.427000+08:00","text":"可是也不否認電力系統需要一些備援的測試，我要問的是，如果說燃煤機組已經定位為緊急備用，它的測試頻率、測試時數、啟動條件、排放的監測及地方政府的事前參與，是否要比一般的機組更透明、更嚴格？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:04:56.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:05:09.862000+08:00","text":"事實上台電公司一直遵循剛剛委員所說的部分，第一個，透明的部分，因為它在進行這個測試，之前就已經有得到能源署的許可，有一個排程去做測試。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:05:09.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:05:23.255000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，啟動的時機，因為這個機組是備用機組，它真正啟動的時機必須要在備轉容量率8%以下的時候才會啟動。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:05:23.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:05:34.602000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛談的那個事情是試運轉，因為一個電廠總是要維持隨時可以上場的狀態，它才有辦法達到備用的情況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:05:34.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:04.479000+08:00","text":"60小時的這個部分，雖然說它在試運轉，但是台電也會遵循對地方的承諾，把它計在備用機組的720小時裡面去進行這個事情，所以基本上：第一個，它是有排程的去做測試；第二個，它是資訊公開；第三個部分，未來的處理它還是會遵循備用機組的規定。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:05.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:12.266000+08:00","text":"我的想法是說，第一，緊急備用燃機的測試時數有沒有一個中立的一致標準？","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:12.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:13.226000+08:00","text":"第二，測試期間如果它併聯發電的話，是不是納入720小時計算？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:13.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:32.397000+08:00","text":"第三，測試期間跟停機的排放，短時間高濃度暴露、PM2.5、硫氧化物、氮氧化物這些資料是否能夠即時公開？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:32.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:46.525000+08:00","text":"第四，地方政府是否可以在空氣不良季節，三級防制區等地方負荷已經很高的時候，要求縮短測試時間、提高監測頻率或附加更加嚴格的操作條件？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:47.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:06:55.070000+08:00","text":"我是覺得如果這些答案都不清楚的話，就代表我們在第二十八條或相關子法至少需要補上緊急備用燃煤機組的特別管理規則。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:06:56.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:07:08.181000+08:00","text":"第一個，台電公司事實上它有一個CEMS的系統去監測所有剛剛委員詢問的地方，這第一個。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:07:08.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:07:16.984000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，我剛剛有說明了，台電在啟動這一些測試的狀況都有一個嚴謹的條件和作業規範。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:07:16.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:07:45.347000+08:00","text":"第三個問題是回答委員所提到的，這個測試的時間是不是要訂一個電廠的規劃，事實上每一個電廠都是非常獨立的，它運轉的時間、它機組的形式、它需要測試的時間，我們認為台電事實上在全世界所有的電業經營上面，它的管理績效相當地不錯，這個部分是尊重台電對個別電廠的要求。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:07:47.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:08:12.794000+08:00","text":"好，針對8,000家廠商受到衝擊這個部分，擔心地方政府兩個月內未完成審查就可能造成停工、斷鏈、連續運轉設備不可逆的這些損失，我當然是尊重經濟部提出這些產業衝擊評估，也同意連續製程不能隨便停工，但我要問的是，這8,000家廠商是否全部都因為第二十七、二十八、三十條修法而立刻停工？","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:08:13.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:08:16.195000+08:00","text":"是否全部都是高污染的燃料使用者？","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:08:16.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:08:20.237000+08:00","text":"是否全部都有連續製程不可逆的一些停工風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:08:21.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:08:40.502000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員說明，這些會影響的，大部分固定污染源都是屬於鍋爐的，那鍋爐的部分透過燃料把它轉換成熱能，不管是在做殺菌，不管是食品的業者或是醫院去提供一些包括冷氣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:08:41.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:09:01.459000+08:00","text":"或是消毒的這一些設備，但是每一個廠商，從高科技一直到食品加工業或是肉品加工業，他的投資絕對不會是兩年，他設備購置的時候就有一定的時限，這個是我必須要說明的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:09:01.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:09:25.636000+08:00","text":"第二點，我要說明的事情是，照目前各委員版本所提出來的草案，一個非課責於廠商的責任卻要廠商去負擔所有的風險，這似乎有點違背了法律的信賴保護原則。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:09:26.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:09:49.451000+08:00","text":"最後一點，我要跟委員說明的部分，兩年期限一到，期限到之前我要申請展延，然後期限到的話我又要兩年，那這中間很快的我馬上拿到一個許可證，我馬上又要再申請，我們整天就在搞這些事情，那廠商要不要生產？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:09:49.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:09:50.231000+08:00","text":"當然要生產啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:09:51.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:11.589000+08:00","text":"事實上在去年的韌性條例裡面，我們已經輔導廠商做很多的設備汰換，當他做了這些設備汰換，他也取得相關的操作許可的時候，不應該把非課責於他的責任讓這個廠商來承擔風險，這個是我們最擔憂的事。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:11.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:21.113000+08:00","text":"這八千多家事實上不僅只有電業……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:21.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:22.395000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:22.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:31.046000+08:00","text":"依照我們所有的空氣污染排放清冊來看的話，電業占全國的固定污染源只有一個小小的部分。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:31.046000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:32.267000+08:00","text":"好，同意次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:32.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:33.429000+08:00","text":"其他的還有高科技啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:33.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:33.809000+08:00","text":"半導體啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:34.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:35.010000+08:00","text":"食品啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:35.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:35.650000+08:00","text":"醫院啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:35.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:10:36.671000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:10:36.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:04.884000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我要請經濟部釐清的地方就是，只有部分涉及高污染燃料，部分涉及連續製程，部分涉及展延、預期風險這些，我覺得經濟部應該要把風險拆開，而不是把所有的廠商包在一起，形成一修法就要斷鏈的這個印象，請問經濟部有沒有把8,000家能夠分成幾類，真正使用生煤、燃油、SRF等高污染跟爭議性的燃料有多少？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:05.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:08.287000+08:00","text":"位在三級防制區、總量管制區的有多少？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:09.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:11.971000+08:00","text":"屬於連續運轉，一旦停工有不可逆損失的有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:12.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:16.175000+08:00","text":"近5年有重大違規紀錄，需要加嚴管理者有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:16.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:22.561000+08:00","text":"透過改善期、設備升級、燃料替代率可以降低衝擊的有多少？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:23.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:26.845000+08:00","text":"我是覺得應該做一些書面的補充資料給我們。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:26.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:11:32.329000+08:00","text":"就經濟部所主管的產業部分我們會提供，還有其他的包括衛福部啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:11:32.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:12:02.067000+08:00","text":"醫院這一些，我們也希望在委員會裡面，針對所有的行業別，大家審慎來思考如何進行對我們國家的空氣污染會比較好，對廠商經營的不可預期風險可以降低，然後把廠商的信心留在臺灣，我們希望在委員會裡面必須要審慎去處理現在所提出來的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:12:02.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:12:52.830000+08:00","text":"最後我要跟委員講，縱使依照現行的法規，事實上不管是PM2.5減量的部分或是整個空污總量減少的部分，目前減量的成果據我們統計，差不多有7萬7,000公噸左右，PM2.5減少了20%以上，這個部分我們希望是有序地來進行，所以在淨零碳排的排放路徑裡面，經濟部也會有相關的政策工具來協助廠商做設備的汰換，甚至搭配一些循環經濟的作為，讓我們國家的環境跟產業的生產環境更好。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:12:53.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:04.839000+08:00","text":"那我期待的是，廠商是一個穩定的環境，是一個可預期的過程裡面，這樣子的話，或許針對產業的發展、對環境的保護可能會更好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:05.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:35.547000+08:00","text":"另外，修法還有一點就是把廠商自主減量可以提出申請的時機，這個可能性把它降低，那這個部分完全要由一個比較不確定性的概念或是由政府來提出需求，這反而沒有辦法讓廠商依照他的經營計畫跟他對於社會的責任然後去提出減量，做一些行為的改變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:36.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:40.849000+08:00","text":"這邊是建議次長，我們的現行制度可能不夠積極啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:40.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:46.090000+08:00","text":"所以還是希望能夠做一些產業轉型配套版的建議，比如說包括燃料替代啊！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:47.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:47.251000+08:00","text":"設備改善啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:47.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:13:51.432000+08:00","text":"改善期、補助、輔導，與中央地方協調的一個機制出來，這樣的話，我認為在制度上面會更完善。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:13:57.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:14:25.733000+08:00","text":"是，我跟委員講，以臺中市為例，其實臺中市近幾年來，排放的部分大概減少了16%左右，那很多都是臺中電廠，它花了很多經費去把減污的部分做好，但是我們把臺中市的減量部分扣掉台電的話，整體的排放還有增加。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:14:26.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:14:52.107000+08:00","text":"我們是要看除了台電之外，所有有固定污染源的，大家應該齊心為了臺灣這個環境一起來努力，但是這些廠商沒有辦法及時去改變或是在他原來的操作許可之下，他經營的事實環境，這個現實的狀況我們必須要逐一去釐清，其他的廠商比如說像焚化爐或什麼，他為什麼不能減排？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:14:52.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:10.625000+08:00","text":"我想他很願意去做，可能他也有他的困難，所以我們希望在法規面給他穩定的一個基礎，在執行面上面我們考慮到真正務實可執行的，這樣子對整個環境會更好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:10.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:12.006000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:12.006000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:13.006000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:12.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:17.571000+08:00","text":"再請彭部長，最後針對第三十條的部分再請教一個問題。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:17.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:19.192000+08:00","text":"再請部長，謝謝次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:19.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:45.438000+08:00","text":"許可證展延我們覺得應該要建立風險分級，不是一律縮短到兩年，也不是要求每兩年重新大幅改造他的設備，本席主張的是風險分級的概念，低風險跟高風險當然訂定不一樣，所以我希望環境部能夠研議對高風險污染源展延的時候，他可以提出一個改善計畫，加嚴監測和減排放總量，或者是縮短展延的期間。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:15:47.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:15:59.207000+08:00","text":"好，這個我們會來研議一下，不過因為這個涉及到八千多家公司，所以要如何訂出來一定是跨部會來協商，我們會來討論這件事情。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:00.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:11.189000+08:00","text":"現在審核的機關應於35日內完成實質審查這個相關規定，既然有35天的審查要求，實際上逾期的案件大概有多少？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:11.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:12.129000+08:00","text":"有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:12.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:13.110000+08:00","text":"有，這幾年都幾百件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:15.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:18.835000+08:00","text":"是不是有些縣市特別有不足的地方？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:19.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:25.601000+08:00","text":"例如說像高雄，它的許可證就要幾千張，所以對它來說就壓力特別大。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:25.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:29.705000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這種審查量能不足的話，中央是不是應該補足它的人力啦！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:30.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:30.886000+08:00","text":"技術啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:31.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:32.207000+08:00","text":"標準化的審查工具啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:32.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:34.509000+08:00","text":"讓它能夠加速審查？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:36.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:50.639000+08:00","text":"對，其實報告委員，這個東西涉及到整個環境人力的嚴重不足，因為我們環境人力都很優秀，當外面科技業都在挖人的時候，我們流動率也很高，所以這個東西如果一做的話，按照現在是很難啦！","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:51.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:16:59.125000+08:00","text":"我也贊同未來如果有更好的方法可以來做，但是現在來做的確是有點挑戰，不過未來的確是可以來探討。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:16:59.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:08.612000+08:00","text":"像現在以高雄或是桃園來說，這兩個都是比較多的，當然他們的工廠數比較多也是主要的一個原因，可能審不完啦！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:09.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:19.101000+08:00","text":"是，所以有幾個折衷方向讓部長參考，就是業者如果準時且完整申請，沒有重大違規，可以暫時有條件的延續操作。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:19.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:24.567000+08:00","text":"第二個就是讓業者延遲補正，資料不完整或有重大違規就不應該享有同樣的保障。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:25.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:32.728000+08:00","text":"第三個就是主管機關逾期未完成審查，應公開逾期原因、案件進度與預定的准駁期限。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:33.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:48.971000+08:00","text":"第四，逾期期間，其延續期間不得增加排放量，必要時加嚴監測或者是附加臨時操作的條件，這就是我折衷的一個方向，讓部長參考。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:49.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:49.452000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:49.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:49.672000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:50.172000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:17:55.600571+08:00","text":"謝謝盧召委的發言，也謝謝部長跟次長的應答。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:17:55.900571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:00.757714+08:00","text":"陳昭姿委員、陳昭姿委員、陳昭姿委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:01.057714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:06.772000+08:00","text":"我們請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:07.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:11.929143+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:12.229143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:17.086286+08:00","text":"羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:17.386286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:22.243429+08:00","text":"葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:22.543429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:25.686286+08:00","text":"接下來請劉建國委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}