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台灣目前正發生空氣不正義事件那就是已經停機除役的賣電"},{"start":17.438,"end":37.184,"text":"一號機跟三號機即將以短期調度的名義借勢還魂這事情你知道嗎?知道我4月9號在委員會質詢那上週三又到經濟委員會然後我直接請教了國務部長我特別說你沒說短期調度嘛那承諾當時是五六七嘛那有沒有人可以保證不會到八九十"},{"start":38.304,"end":53.952,"text":"然後部長打我是這樣他原本說不會後來又看了台電董事長之後又把那句話吞回去也是這樣啦所以基本上"},{"start":54.879,"end":70.257,"text":"這個美伊戰爭到底到什麼時候沒有人可以說的定我們都很清楚那你用短期的調度講這五六七又不敢保證是不是有八九十然後講說賣電的合約是到二零二七那簡單講也就是到今年的年底"},{"start":72.138,"end":85.208,"text":"那就不是所謂的五六七的短期調度這三個月嘛然後管部長又講了一段話這對外講的喔他說只要賣電可以來做這樣的一個處理就可以降低中火的用煤量這什麼邏輯?鐵粉裡面空氣鐵粉裡面空氣款來挖中火的降載站在環保環境部的立場看待這事情"},{"start":101.26,"end":103.173,"text":"怎麼運營,不曉得要不要講句公道話"},{"start":104.355,"end":133.907,"text":"包委員當然以環境部的立場當然如果說盡量不要用燒煤的做法是我們的期待的一個目標所以我們也會持續的請經濟部跟台電審慎評估它的必要性跟它的一個時機啦齁那因為它的法規現在來說的話還是在有效期以內而且它現在已經獲得雲林縣政府的有條件的同意那未來呢我們的我們的角色現在因為這個是他們是主管機關他已經獲得雲林縣政府有條件的同意"},{"start":137.108,"end":148.294,"text":"所以目前未來我們會要責成我們的地方的環保機關主管機關要嚴密的監控、監督它的空污排放數據市長你剛剛導入我是說這個確定雲林縣政府答應了然後是有條件的答應是不是這個有條件是指什麼有條件那條件內容是什麼這個要不要請問市長"},{"start":160.579,"end":174.85,"text":"用煤量沒有超過114年的水準,就是275萬公噸用煤量不得超過114年對總統的275萬噸不能超過275萬噸,好那我跟市主請教一下你們有沒有掌握當時的用煤量275萬噸是一二三三個機組燃燒出來的量,對不對對,總共總共嘛,對不對,好那二二七組已經拆掉了是"},{"start":190.492,"end":195.364,"text":"然後一號機跟三號機的有條件不得超過114年度的275噸這有道理嗎"},{"start":201.813,"end":209.655,"text":"這個有道理嗎也就是說當時的123這3號機組每一個機組如果270噸來講就是每一個機組有90噸嘛對不對那他已經把2號機拆掉了所以就剩下1號機跟3號機然後1號機跟3號機要去承載原有的每號機的90噸現在"},{"start":225.08,"end":231.466,"text":"然後現在變成多少變成每一號機組要再增加原本的90噸再加上45噸就變成1351351加3兩號機組加起來就是變成270噸這樣有道理嗎"},{"start":240.984,"end":247.909,"text":"部長你能不能簡單討我一下,這樣有道理嗎?原本是三號,三個基礎在承載一年275萬噸現在變成兩個基礎在承載275萬噸這個到底有沒有道理?"},{"start":258.78,"end":279.092,"text":"部長你要慎重答問我,站在黃之空的主管機關是貴單位嗎當然對我們來說是希望說能夠盡量的減少是我們的主要的目的,社會環境主管機關啦但是目前這個還是要讓經濟部他們因為他們有這個電力這個韌性的一個需求來做這個事情柏定你是環境部"},{"start":282.034,"end":301.967,"text":"你不是以前環保署,你不是以前經濟部環保署對我們來說我們是希望說經濟部他需要有電力的需求嘛對不對有電力才有辦法去供給產業面的這樣的一個期待嘛這個我們都很清楚嘛但是空氣的防治、污染基本上主軸機關是在你嘛"},{"start":303.327,"end":312.652,"text":"過去是三個機組 一二三在承載南美的總TOTAL你剛剛講的114年度就270幾嘛對不對那現在已經拆了二號機 剩下兩個機組為什麼要承載相同的114年度的總TOTAL的南美的量這個道理何在"},{"start":324.397,"end":346.408,"text":"這個專政環境部你要怎麼處理要怎麼應應包委我們對我們的立場我們早上也大概有一個承諾就是說我們會透過空瓶的模擬各方面也把這個風險性如果這兩個要這三個月的增加對附近特別是雲林民眾的風險性我們來做一個評估希望一個月內一到兩個月內有一個初步的結果出來"},{"start":347.168,"end":369.174,"text":"那我們會來幫把關空氣品質跟健康的這個兩個因素這是我們要關注的焦點部長你不應該有條件啦地方政府在有條件你也跟人家有條件中部的空氣品質在這幾年經由你率領的環境部啦上上下下大家共同努力的情況之下不管是移動的不管是固定的都有明顯的下降"},{"start":369.774,"end":385.656,"text":"那你現在又要有條件去認可這個在賣店的兩號機組然後渾燒比過去更大的藍莓量那你說你有條件的你再跟人家有什麼條件的去認可這件事情沒有道理"},{"start":386.741,"end":400.293,"text":"沒有道理一旦這個地方的空氣品質又越來越劇烈然後空污的狀況一直整個我們看到的數字在提高你要怎麼對人民負責我剛剛已經點出這個不可思議的這種有條件的同意三號機一檔燒兩百七十幾"},{"start":414.878,"end":420.817,"text":"兩個基,兩個基礎一樣要燒同樣的量那你們可以同意"},{"start":424.11,"end":448.388,"text":"不對勁我不吃雞皮疙瘩,這個事情大家會沒有沒了,我絕對不容許這種事情發生。那一天4月9號在委員會的時候,應該你沒有列席。我知道,我知道委員的想法。那次也應該沒有列席,那我必須跟你講,那個地方當時是非常離譜惡劣,之前是燃燒石油窖。"},{"start":451.005,"end":472.312,"text":"石油車連印度政府都不愛愛,是自愛物喔那是在這裡說很久,說了兩次,連院會也說了兩次民進黨執政完之後就說要把它禁掉了那一直沒有做,是我們在這邊修了法律,是我提案的提案完之後,還要經過協商,然後進到院會然後三讀通過,還要經過總統府公告你知道那個延長的拖了多少時間"},{"start":480.386,"end":498.674,"text":"這三號機組原本就全部應該拆掉了拖拖拉拉不拆掉只拆掉一個二號機組那你現在又有條件地方政府有條件我沒有辦法去救著他們大盤進步不能這麼做啦那次你在這邊我也拜託你們真的不要這麼做了"},{"start":499.995,"end":517.987,"text":"真的不要這麼做啦因為你們的短期你們的短期五六七你們的短期就不是五六七嘛因為你不敢保證嘛保證美伊戰爭到什麼時候嘛國務部長也沒有辦法答覆我嘛所以你們的短期調度就有可能五六七八九十嘛十十一十二嘛我為什麼要接受"},{"start":519.707,"end":545.63,"text":"那你這我跟人家講的短期調度就三個月啊那你不敢保證說三個月就結束了啊那你憑什麼跟人家講短期你憑什麼跟人家講任性你哪來的任性沒有啊謝謝委員關心這個問題啊我們非常關心而且委員過去一直致力在空氣汙染的改善的這個部分那也因為這委員會大家一個督促之下所以台"},{"start":546.823,"end":571.438,"text":"台塑化的這個台塑的這個賣料的13號機組他現在是超臨界supercritical的所以他基本上跟過去大家沒有改變之前呢他的燃料的來源或是他的所謂的排汙的這個部分是稍微有降低那另外一個部分剛剛委員是有提到一點是事實上三部機組275啦那你今天兩部機組絕對不可能燒到275"},{"start":573.578,"end":588.479,"text":"然後更何況台電公司現在跟台塑的這個所謂的簽訂的緊急的合約是三個月所以基本上的話你說好假設我們來看的話因為一個機組發電量是固定的他"},{"start":589.52,"end":608.114,"text":"你未給他太多的燃煤的話事實上他也不可能來產生更大的一個電能所以基本上275除以3大概是三分之二左右再12分之3左右的這個量大概是我們現在"},{"start":609.875,"end":638.575,"text":"初步上面我們現在估出來的一個部分那另外一個工作我們也希望說中東的戰士我們盡量去找尋我們能源的韌性來去讓委員的擔憂把它減少市長市長你的專業在秩序我非常敬佩然後你也非常用心然後包含電子下線你都非常投入但這種燃煤的事情我要提醒你你達富爾真的要很小心"},{"start":639.975,"end":654.031,"text":"有很多事情他們幹得出來你不一定想得到你不用去替他們答覆說275除以3不會等275除以2你不用替他們答覆這種事情然後什麼叫超臨界你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎"},{"start":662.609,"end":689.578,"text":"請部長跟次長要小心啦反正我是反對到底你們要去盤整你們要整理去盤整你那個短期的調度你就是想別的地方你就不要再想那個地方你一旦想那個地方你們絕對會有沒有辦法承受的事情會發生啦我再度提醒好我再度提醒然後對輿論人也不公平"},{"start":691.404,"end":716.74,"text":"坦白講空氣汙染兌分的關係已經上海解雇了好不容易都搞了 時間都搞了跟村這兩個 只是一撒雞肉拖而已你們就把手底下去我是覺得政府不應該憑你行事啦然後那個燃燒的量你們自己去思考清楚絕對不是陳副市長你掌握的這個狀況我真的是善意提醒這個事情如果你們硬要做下去真的會"},{"start":719.967,"end":736.563,"text":"會比馬鈴薯會更嚴重而且我希望環境部環境部真的要更有更強大的power不能讓這個事情發生好謝謝好謝謝委員的建議謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的質詢接下來請楊耀文"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:45.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:46.295000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:46.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:48.800000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:48.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:18:49.800000+08:00","text":"劉委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:18:48.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:03.640000+08:00","text":"部長，臺灣目前正發生空氣不正義事件，已經停機除役的麥電1號機跟3號機即將以短期調度的名義借屍還魂，這件事情你知道吧？知道。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:04.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:17.644000+08:00","text":"我4月9日在委員會質詢，上週三又到經濟委員會直接請教了龔部長，我特別說你們說短期調度，當時承諾是5、6、7月，有沒有人可以保證不會到8、9、10月？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:19.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:32.591000+08:00","text":"然後部長是這樣答復我，他原本說不會，後來看了台電董事長之後，又把那句話吞回去，類似這樣啦！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:34.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:38.662000+08:00","text":"基本上美伊戰爭到底到什麼時候，沒有人可以說得定嘛！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:39.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:51.236000+08:00","text":"我們都很清楚，那你用短期的調度講5、6、7月，又不敢保證是不是會到8、9、10月，然後講說麥電的合約是到2027，簡單講，也就是到今年的年底嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:53.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:56.001000+08:00","text":"那就不是所謂5、6、7月這樣短期調度3個月嘛！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:19:56.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:19:59.663000+08:00","text":"然後龔部長又講了一段話，這是對外講的喔！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:00.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.187000+08:00","text":"他說只要麥電可以處理，就可以降低中火的用煤量。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.227000+08:00","text":"這是什麼邏輯？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.728000+08:00","text":"拿雲林的空氣權換中火降載？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:05.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:23.327000+08:00","text":"站在環境部的立場看待這件事情，怎麼因應？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:23.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:24.173000+08:00","text":"部長要不要講句公道話？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:25.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:48.124000+08:00","text":"報告委員，以環境部的立場，儘量不要採用燒煤的做法當然是我們期待的目標，所以我們也會持續地請經濟部和台電審慎評估其必要性跟時機，但依照法規，現在還在有效期以內，而且已經獲得雲林縣政府的有條件同意。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:48.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:52.486000+08:00","text":"至於未來我們的角色，因為他們是主管機關……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:52.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:20:54.887000+08:00","text":"他們已經獲得雲林縣政府有條件的同意？對。好。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:20:58.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:06.292000+08:00","text":"所以未來我們要責成地方環保主管機關嚴密監控、監督其空污排放數據，這是我們目前可以做的。","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:06.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:07.873000+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛答復我的是確定雲林縣政府答應了、是有條件的答應，是不是？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:07.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:08.873000+08:00","text":"對，有條件的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:07.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:08.333000+08:00","text":"那這個「有條件」是指什麼條件？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:08.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:09.033000+08:00","text":"條件內容是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:21.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:26.463000+08:00","text":"用煤量沒有超過114年的水準，也就是275萬公噸。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:26.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:27.704000+08:00","text":"用煤量不得超過114年的總total？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:27.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:27.864000+08:00","text":"對，275萬噸。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:27.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:28.324000+08:00","text":"不能超過275萬噸？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:28.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:33.568000+08:00","text":"好，那我請教一下，你們有沒有掌握當時的用煤量，275萬噸是1、2、3這3座機組燃燒出來的量，對不對？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:33.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:33.568000+08:00","text":"對，總共。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:33.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:33.948000+08:00","text":"總共對不對？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:34.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:35.830000+08:00","text":"那2號機組已經拆掉了？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:21:52.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:21:56.364000+08:00","text":"那麼1號機跟3號機的「有條件」是不得超過114年度的275萬噸，這有道理嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:04.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:07.094000+08:00","text":"以當時1、2、3這3座機組270萬噸來講，就是每一座機組90萬噸嘛！","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:07.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:26.961000+08:00","text":"而2號機已經拆掉了，所以剩下1號機跟3號機，而1號機跟3號機除了要承載原本每號機的90萬噸，因為3乘以9是27，那現在變成多少？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:27.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:32.245000+08:00","text":"變成每一號機組要從原本的90萬噸再加上45萬噸，就變成135萬噸，1加3兩號機組加起來才會變成270萬噸吧？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:32.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:32.466000+08:00","text":"這樣有道理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:41.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:44.606000+08:00","text":"部長，能不能簡單答復我，這樣有道理嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:44.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:22:48.889000+08:00","text":"原本是3座機組承載一年275萬噸，現在變成2座機組要承載275萬噸，這樣到底有沒有道理？","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:22:59.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:00.661000+08:00","text":"部長，要慎重答復我喔！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:02.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:04.263000+08:00","text":"環境、空污主管機關是貴單位嘛！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:04.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:18.952000+08:00","text":"當然，對我們來說，身為環境主管機關，儘量減少是我們的主要目的，但是目前這件事還是要讓經濟部考量，因為他們是基於電力韌性的需求做這件事。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:19.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:20.072000+08:00","text":"部長，你是環境部欸！對。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:23.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:26.436000+08:00","text":"你不是過去的環保署、不是過去外人常講的經濟部環保署，而是部對部。","quality":0.483},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:27.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:28.117000+08:00","text":"對我們來說，我們希望如果能夠儘量……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:31.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:42.947000+08:00","text":"當然經濟部有電力需求，因為有電力才有辦法供給產業面的期待，這點我們都很清楚，但是空氣污染防制的主責機關基本上是你嘛！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:44.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:50.170000+08:00","text":"過去是以3座機組──1、2、3號承載燃煤總量，如你剛剛講的，114年度是兩百七十幾萬噸，對不對？是。","quality":0.528},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:50.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:52.451000+08:00","text":"不過已經拆了2號機，剩下2座機組，為什麼一樣承載跟114年度相同的總total燃煤量？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:23:52.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:23:53.632000+08:00","text":"這個道理何在？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:05.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:24:08.038000+08:00","text":"站在環境部的立場，要怎麼處理、要怎麼因應？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:08.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:24:27.408000+08:00","text":"報告委員，關於我們的立場，我們早上也做出一項承諾，就是會透過空品模擬等各方面做法計算風險性，就這三個月的增加對附近、特別是雲林民眾的風險性加以評估，希望一到兩個月內有初步結果出來。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:28.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:24:34.250000+08:00","text":"我們會把關空氣品質跟健康，這兩個因素是我們要關注的焦點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:34.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:24:35.630000+08:00","text":"部長，你不應該有條件啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:35.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:24:37.851000+08:00","text":"地方政府說「有條件」，你也跟人家說「有條件」？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:24:38.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:00.367000+08:00","text":"中部的空氣品質這幾年經由你率領的環境部上上下下、大家共同努力，不管是移動的、是固定的，數據都明顯地下降，你現在卻又要有條件地認可在麥電的2座機組，還焚燒比過去更大的燃煤量。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:01.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:05.655000+08:00","text":"你說你是有條件的，但你有什麼條件跟人家有條件認可這件事情？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:07.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:08.181000+08:00","text":"沒有道理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:08.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:19.712000+08:00","text":"一旦這個地方的空氣品質愈來愈劇烈、整個空污狀況、我們看到的數字一直提高，你要怎麼對人民負責？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:19.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:41.797000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經點出這是不可思議的有條件同意，3座機組一年燒兩百七十幾萬噸，剩下2座機組也要燒同樣的量，而你們可以同意？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:41.797000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:48.032000+08:00","text":"部長，我對這件事無法接受喔！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:48.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:51.595000+08:00","text":"所以大家會沒完沒了，我絕對不容許這種事情發生。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:52.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:57.759000+08:00","text":"4月9日那天的委員會你應該沒有列席……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:57.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:58.240000+08:00","text":"我知道。知道？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:25:58.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:25:59.921000+08:00","text":"我知道委員的想法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:01.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:01.722000+08:00","text":"但是你應該沒有列席啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:02.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:13.346000+08:00","text":"那麼我必須跟你講，那個地方的情況當時非常離譜、惡劣，之前是燃燒石油焦，而石油焦連印度政府都不要啊！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:14.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:15.366000+08:00","text":"是一級致癌物喔！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:17.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:32.592000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡講了很久、講了好幾次，連在院會都講了好幾次，民進黨執政之後宣布禁掉，也一直沒有作為，是我們在這邊修了法、是我提案的，提案之後，還經過協商、進到院會，三讀通過後還要經過總統府公告欸！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:32.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:33.312000+08:00","text":"你知道拖了多少時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:41.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:26:55.052000+08:00","text":"這3座機組原本應該全部拆掉的，卻拖拖拉拉不拆，只拆掉2號機組，現在又有條件……對於地方政府的有條件，我沒辦法究責他們，但環境部不能這麼做啦！","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:26:57.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:01.836000+08:00","text":"賴次長在這裡，我也拜託你們，真的不要這麼做啦！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:02.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:07.579000+08:00","text":"你們雖說短期是5、6、7月，但你們的短期其實就不是5、6、7月，因為你們不敢保證嘛！","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:08.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:12.142000+08:00","text":"你們不敢保證美伊戰爭到什麼時候，龔部長也沒辦法答復我嘛！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:12.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:17.406000+08:00","text":"所以你們的短期調度就有可能從5、6、7月到8、9、10月或10、11、12月嘛！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:18.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:18.967000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:21.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:26.772000+08:00","text":"政府跟人家講的短期調度就是3個月，又無法保證3個月就結束，那你憑什麼跟人家講短期？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:27.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:28.754000+08:00","text":"你憑什麼跟人家講韌性？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:29.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:30.596000+08:00","text":"你哪來的韌性？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:32.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:27:35.060000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:27:35.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:28:04.153000+08:00","text":"委員關心的這個問題，我們也非常關心，而且委員過去一直致力在空氣污染改善這個部分，也因為在委員會大家的督促之下，台塑麥寮的1、3號機組現在是超臨界、supercritical的，所以基本上比起過去沒有被大家改變之前的燃料來源或排污稍有降低。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:28:04.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:28:21.388000+08:00","text":"另外是剛剛委員提到一點，事實上，3部機組275萬噸，2部機組則絕對不可能燒到275萬噸，更何況台電公司現在跟台塑簽訂的緊急合約是3個月。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:28:26.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:28:52.556000+08:00","text":"roughly來看，因為機組發電量是固定的，就算餵給它太多燃煤，事實上也不可能產生更大的電能，所以275除以3，大概是三分之二左右再十二分之三左右的量，這是現在我們初步估出來的。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:28:53.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:05.725000+08:00","text":"另外一項工作，我們也希望因應中東戰事儘量找尋能源的韌性，讓委員的擔憂減少。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:07.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:14.271000+08:00","text":"次長，你的專業在於治水，我非常敬佩，而且你非常用心，包含地層下陷處理，你都非常投入。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:14.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:23.318000+08:00","text":"但對於燃煤這種事，我要提醒你，答復我時真的要很小心，有很多事情他們幹得出來，你不一定想得到。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:24.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:32.248000+08:00","text":"你也不用替他們答復275除以3不會等於275除以2，不用替他們答復這種事情。","quality":0.393},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:33.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:34.750000+08:00","text":"還有什麼叫超臨界，你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:34.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:35.031000+08:00","text":"你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:43.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:45.010000+08:00","text":"請部長跟次長小心啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:45.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:29:46.450000+08:00","text":"反正我是反對到底。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:29:47.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:03.996000+08:00","text":"請你們整體盤整短期調度，你先去想別的地方，就不會再想那個地方；一旦想著那個地方，絕對會有你們沒辦法承受的事情發生啦！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:05.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:06.136000+08:00","text":"我再度提醒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:09.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:27.693000+08:00","text":"而且，對雲林人也不公平，坦白講，空氣污染已經傷害雲林縣很久了，好不容易時間都到了，只剩1、3號機未拆而已，你們就想到那裡去，我覺得政府不應該便宜行事啦！","quality":0.631},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:29.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:33.897000+08:00","text":"對於燃燒的量，你們自己思考清楚，絕對不是如次長掌握的這個狀況。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:33.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:43.149000+08:00","text":"我真的是善意提醒，這件事如果你們硬要做下去，真的會比馬鈴薯事件更嚴重。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:44.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:55.081000+08:00","text":"而且希望環境部真的要展現更強大的power，不能讓這件事情發生。謝謝。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:55.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:55.862000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的建議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:55.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:56.382000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:30:56.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:30:57.463000+08:00","text":"接下來請楊曜委員質詢。","quality":0.5}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}