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次長辛苦了我有幾個問題就空汙法的修法"},{"start":22.642,"end":38.611,"text":"影響層面跟市長做個探討所以在經濟部的新聞稿裡面曾經指出說這一次排審的草案可能涉及到能源跟產業排放規範那部分版本"},{"start":39.992,"end":57.88,"text":"更加規定固定污染源操作許可的期限只要期滿而且地方政府在兩個月內沒有完成延展的審查業者就不得繼續操作就形同停工這個會讓產業承擔行政審查延誤的風險"},{"start":63.762,"end":91.524,"text":"就是行政審查延誤原本應該是行政機關的責任這個版本可能會轉嫁把風險的承擔歸於業者我不只成本會增加大概也會影響到全國供電的穩定我們現在就是電廠可能就是固定污染源裡面最"},{"start":93.425,"end":117.554,"text":"最容易被探討到的啦是那經濟部也表示過就是相關修法可能可能會波及到半導體鋼鐵石化紡織造紙水泥等產業關鍵產業千年的層面非常的廣所以假如說固定固定污染"},{"start":118.888,"end":135.376,"text":"原使用許可證因為審查延誤被迫停工可能導致上中下游的供應令斷裂經濟損失是很嚴重的我不知道"},{"start":137.605,"end":151.149,"text":"部裡面對於可能造成的經濟損失大概在哪裡範圍多大有沒有一定的評估這個部分我們今天早上報告裡面剛剛委員所說的這幾項產業我們統計起來差不多是8000多家"},{"start":155.618,"end":168.048,"text":"那這些八千多家裡面其實事實上還不包括醫院還有可能是有一些可能是食品的加工廠或是那個或是肉品的因為他們都需要鍋爐"},{"start":170.202,"end":198.838,"text":"原來立法的原意是說當他進行去設置的時候他必須要去定期的去履行他原來設置通過政府審查的責任當期限若是要到的之前他要提出來這一些所謂相關的申請那相關的申請必然是在公部門來進行申請那這些行政的風險因為時間到審查沒有準薄與否的話"},{"start":199.798,"end":207.534,"text":"那這個責任卻是轉嫁到業者來那這個業者承受到他一個投資未來設施"},{"start":210.08,"end":236.075,"text":"可能會隨時因為這種行政審核或是法規的規定讓他停留了那停留的話他就必須要去停工那這個是問題是很大的第二個問題的話我是跟委員報告假設按照目前的這個若綱委員所提出來的修正草案的話不但是這樣子而且把許可的這個年限下降到兩年"},{"start":238.568,"end":265.61,"text":"兩年一次可是我兩年快到的時候我要提出申請我們一天到晚公務人員一天到晚就是在做審查廠商一天到晚業者也很麻煩啦對啦業者一天到晚在送新的書件那這針對一個實質的生產力啊甚至是他投資的一個所謂的風險或是一個不確定性他說是有隱憂的那在過去啊"},{"start":266.874,"end":294.17,"text":"我們的一個努力不是說我們不重視所謂的環境的部分我們以剛剛我跟盧委員所提到的這個大家很關心的可能是電業的部分那以中火事實上它2016年到2021年它的中火的空台的減量達到60%而全台中市"},{"start":295.447,"end":319.356,"text":"是減少18%但是我們若是把台中的中火的減量把它扣掉的話台中市整個空污的排放量事實上是增加的那這麼多的業者在台中市他為什麼會增加我們必須我們認為我們必須要去探究他"},{"start":320.658,"end":348.684,"text":"是不是製程改善可能有一些問題或是設備投資可能相當的金額時間很長或是空間可能改善是有限的所以經濟部在這個部分從去年的任性條例我們產發署提供了經費的補助讓相關的這個廠商他可以去汰換設備然後因為有這些資金的挹注那廠商更願意"},{"start":350.685,"end":374.62,"text":"來為我們的空屋來去盡一份這個心力然後另外一點就是我們現在的若干委員的提案泥修正的部分就是說把一些中央跟地方的法規沒有對齊的部分標準不一甚至有一些我們所謂的空白授權之餘"},{"start":377.13,"end":403.983,"text":"因為在這審議的裡面是說他許可的時候他可以附條件的許可那委員也知道當一個法我們必須要維持信賴保護的原則法律保留的原則我們針對人民的所謂的所謂的這個任何的行政的準博必須要法律的授權當這個授權沒有明確或是超越授權的時候這可能對於"},{"start":405.464,"end":426.154,"text":"民眾來講的話業者來講就會產生很大的這個衝擊負條件許可就是會產生後續很多不確定性因為他負的條件不知道他準博的依據是什麼因為現行的規定裡面中央他必須要去訂一個所謂的規定所謂的標準"},{"start":427.148,"end":454.15,"text":"那這個標準的話是由環境部去會商相關的單位去訂出來的那我假設業者的話我要去申請這個我就知道說中央的規則在那邊我就依照這個規則我來準備我的書件然後甚至我還希望說我可能是可以去做到什麼自主減量的一個可能性那這個部分把所謂的業者他需要去自主減量的一個機會甚至在"},{"start":455.03,"end":478.06,"text":"若干委員的提案裡面這個機會就剝奪掉了他的提案是說要由地方政府去指定他要去做什麼事情就是說法律本來就很明確那行政材料更需要明確要不然業者其實也無從做很多相關的準備"},{"start":479.881,"end":486.808,"text":"市長剛剛大概把我原本要問的國民健康跟產業發展就是你們藉由相關的補助讓相關的業者可以減少空污的量的製造你大概也已經一併講完了"},{"start":499.901,"end":520.897,"text":"那我最後呼應一下次長的講法就是我覺得法律是這樣子法律必須要誰做的行為誰負擔責任那假如說行政機關"},{"start":522.628,"end":535.404,"text":"的延誤責任轉嫁給業者這個是非常不公平的一件事情對於產業的發展本身也是一種傷害對於台灣的經濟發展"},{"start":537.774,"end":557.6,"text":"國民的整體的生活也都會有影響這個我覺得市長在修法的時候本席會跟你們站在同一個立場我們希望說大院的委員會理解因為我是公務人員因為這個假如說修過的話"},{"start":558.88,"end":581.125,"text":"因為我們現在看到公務員在地方或是在中央無論地方中央缺員很多那他有限的人力一下子要應付這麼多的可能因為說密集的審查然後要因為一個案子啊他不是只有書面審查而已他要實質審查甚至他還要去排線看"},{"start":582.452,"end":607.775,"text":"那有限的人力去應付這個很短的時間裡面然後密集的需要去做些循環的行政的作業事實上對公務人員來講也是一個極大的壓力因為其實現在我們就是受理任何案件本來也都有時程的規範只是那個是一般的行政規則就內部的規定那再怎麼看"},{"start":608.536,"end":624.942,"text":"也不應該是在人力這麼短缺的情況下也不應該是把人力短缺造成的延誤轉嫁給業者啦這個第一點第二點就是萬一再有其他的考量"},{"start":625.962,"end":642.031,"text":"譬如說我們就講電廠譬如說這一陣子境外污染源特別多那也會影響地方政府審核的速度啦我們不要說過於不過啦"},{"start":643.072,"end":661.181,"text":"使得速度一定會拖慢那把這個責任轉嫁給業者這個不管從法理上或是從全體台灣的經濟發展國人的生活都不是一件好事好啦 謝謝次長這麼詳細的說明謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝羊羊委員的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:26.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:31:30.073000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經濟部賴次長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:30.073000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:31:36.317000+08:00","text":"請經濟部賴次長。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:36.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:31:36.317000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:36.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:31:37.878000+08:00","text":"次長好，次長辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:39.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:31:48.524000+08:00","text":"我有幾個問題，要就空污法修法的影響層面與次長做個探討。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:31:49.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:32:19.880000+08:00","text":"經濟部的新聞稿曾經指出，這次排審的草案可能涉及能源跟產業排放規範，部分版本更規定固定污染源操作許可期限假如屆滿，而且地方政府在2個月內沒有完成延展的審查，業者就不得繼續操作，形同停工，會讓產業承擔行政審查延誤的風險。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:32:26.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:32:57.046000+08:00","text":"行政審查延誤原本應該是行政機關的責任，但依照這個版本，可能會轉嫁，把風險的承擔歸於業者，不只成本會增加，大概也會影響全國供電的穩定，因為電廠可能就是固定污染源裡最容易被探討到的。是。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:32:59.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:33:36.336000+08:00","text":"經濟部也表示過，相關修法可能會波及半導體、鋼鐵、石化、紡織、造紙、水泥等關鍵產業，牽連層面非常廣，假如固定污染源使用許可證因為審查延誤被迫停工，可能導致上中下游供應鏈斷裂，經濟損失是很嚴重的。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:33:36.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:33:47.987000+08:00","text":"我不知道部裡對於可能造成的經濟損失大概在哪裡、範圍多大有沒有一定的評估？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:33:49.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:33:58.699000+08:00","text":"這部分在我們今天早上的報告裡，針對剛剛委員所說的這幾項產業，我們統計起來差不多是八千多家。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:33:58.699000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:33:59.940000+08:00","text":"八千多家產業？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:33:59.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:34:10.048000+08:00","text":"這八千多家事實上還不包括醫院、食品加工廠或是肉品業等，因為他們都需要鍋爐。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:34:12.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:34:30.752000+08:00","text":"立法原意是業者設置的時候必須定期履行原來設置通過政府審查的責任，在期限要到之前須提出相關申請。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:34:30.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:35:03.627000+08:00","text":"相關申請必然是向公部門進行申請，但這些行政風險，一旦時間到，審查卻沒有准駁與否的話，責任就會轉嫁給業者，讓業者承受風險，未來投資、設施可能隨時因為這種行政審核或法規規定導致停爐，停爐就必須停工，這個問題是很大的。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:35:04.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:35:27.754000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，我跟委員報告：按照目前若干委員所提出的修正草案，不但是這樣，許可年限還下降到2年一次，2年快到時要提出申請，那麼公務人員將一天到晚都在審查，廠商也會一天到晚……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:35:31.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:35:32.938000+08:00","text":"對，業者也很麻煩啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:35:33.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:35:45.568000+08:00","text":"業者一天到晚在送新的書件，其實質生產力、甚至投資風險與不確定性是有隱憂的。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:35:47.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:36:33.353000+08:00","text":"過去我們的努力……我們不是不重視環境，以剛剛我跟盧委員提到、大家很關心的電業來講，事實上，中火在2016年到2021年空排減量達到60%，全臺中市也減少18%，但是如果把臺中的中火減量扣掉的話，臺中市整個空污的排放量是增加的。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:36:35.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:36:37.994000+08:00","text":"這麼多業者在臺中市，為什麼會增加？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:36:38.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:37:04.162000+08:00","text":"我們認為必須探究是不是其製程改善有一些問題或設備投資金額、時間很長、空間改善有限，所以經濟部針對這部分，去年依據韌性條例由產發署提供經費補助，讓相關廠商汰換設備。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:37:07.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:37:15.347000+08:00","text":"也因為有這些資金挹注，廠商更願意為空污盡一分心力。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:37:17.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:37:44.393000+08:00","text":"另外，若干委員提案擬修正條文可能導致中央與地方法規沒有對齊、標準不一，甚至有空白授權之虞，因為在審議許可時可以附條件許可。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:37:46.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:38:11.386000+08:00","text":"委員也知道，法律必須維持信賴保護原則、法律保留原則，針對人民的任何行政准駁都必須有法律授權，當授權未明確或超越授權時，對民眾或業者來講就會產生很大的衝擊，這是我們擔憂的部分。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:38:12.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:38:17.589000+08:00","text":"附條件許可就是後續會產生很多不確定性啦！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:38:18.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:38:22.231000+08:00","text":"因為不知道對於所附條件的准駁依據是什麼。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:38:22.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:38:33.331000+08:00","text":"在現行規定裡，中央必須訂出標準，而這個標準是由環境部會商相關單位訂出來的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:38:35.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:38:49.925000+08:00","text":"假設我是業者的話，申請時知道中央的規則，就可以依照這個規則準備書件，甚至有做到自主減量的可能性。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:38:56.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:39:06.974000+08:00","text":"但是在若干委員的提案裡，甚至把業者自主減量的機會剝奪掉了，因為提案是主張由地方政府指定業者做什麼事情。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:39:07.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:39:13.817000+08:00","text":"法律本來就很明確，行政裁量更需要明確啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:39:13.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:39:20.060000+08:00","text":"要不然業者其實也無從做相關準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:39:23.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:39:28.788000+08:00","text":"次長剛剛大概把我原本要問的國民健康跟產業發展、也就是藉由補助讓相關業者減少空污量的製造一併講完了。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:39:42.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:39:59.855000+08:00","text":"我最後呼應一下次長的講法，就是我覺得法律必須要誰做的行為，誰負擔責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:01.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:12.057000+08:00","text":"假如將行政機關的延誤責任轉嫁給業者，這是非常不公平的一件事情。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:12.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:16.083000+08:00","text":"對於產業的發展本身也是一種傷害。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:16.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:24.475000+08:00","text":"對於臺灣的經濟發展，以及國民整體的生活，也都會有影響。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:26.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:34.398000+08:00","text":"次長在修法的時候，本席會跟你們站在同一個立場。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:34.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:36.619000+08:00","text":"對，我們希望大院的委員會理解。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:36.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:40:46.061000+08:00","text":"因為我也是公務人員，我們現在看到公務人員在地方或是在中央都缺員很多。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:40:56.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:41:02.865000+08:00","text":"因為一個案子不是只有書面審查而已，還要實質審查，甚至還要去排現勘。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:41:05.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:41:17.584000+08:00","text":"以有限的人力，去應付在很短的時間裡面密集需要去做一些循環的行政作業，事實上對公務人員來講也是一個極大的壓力。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:41:17.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:41:27.513000+08:00","text":"因為其實現在我們受理任何案件，本來也都有時程的規範，只是那個是一般的行政規則，就是內部的規定。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:41:33.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:41:43.300000+08:00","text":"在人力這麼短缺的情況下，也不應該把人力短缺造成的延誤轉嫁給業者，這是第一點。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:41:43.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:02.631000+08:00","text":"第二點，萬一再有其他的考量，我們就講電廠，譬如這一陣子境外污染源特別多，也會影響地方政府審核的速度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:02.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:04.011000+08:00","text":"我們不要說故意不過啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:05.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:19.519000+08:00","text":"審核的速度一定會拖慢，把這個責任轉嫁給業者，不管從法理上或者從全體臺灣的經濟發展、國人的生活來看，都不是一件好事。是。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:20.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:22.521000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長這麼詳細的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員曜","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:22.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:22.801000+08:00","text":"謝謝次長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:22.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:22.841000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:23.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:23.181000+08:00","text":"謝謝楊曜委員的質詢。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T13:42:23.681000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T13:42:26.538143+08:00","text":"接下來請陳瑩委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}