{"error":false,"id":["168981"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168981,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168981","日期":"2026-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-29T15:49:56+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-29T16:02:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee84ee6694ed1e92eb9584e55221ec8869c0f4adde2d2cfc6c0f1027fd842694b5725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"15:49:56 - 16:02:46","會議時間":"2026-04-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（下午2時30分起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查\n(一)委員柯志恩等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員林月琴等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王育敏等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n二、審查\n(一)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「醫療法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員洪申翰、賴惠員等17人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「醫療法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「醫療法第八十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員王正旭等24人擬具「醫療法增訂第七十一條之一條文草案」案。\n(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具「醫療法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(十)委員賴惠員等20人擬具「醫療法第八十四條及第一百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員李彥秀等16人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「醫療法第八十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員劉建國等18人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法增訂第九十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(十七)委員林思銘等23人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十八)委員羅智強等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十九)委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十)委員蘇清泉等22人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一)委員羅明才等16人擬具「醫療法第十條、第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四)委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「醫療法第一百零二條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(二十四)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答，下午1時30分起辦理發言】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":3.30471875,"end":33.96659375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":34.60784375,"end":54.992843750000006,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":55.66784375,"end":137.08971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":137.71409375000002,"end":141.10596875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":141.59534375,"end":145.29096875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":146.05034375,"end":155.31471875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":146.94471875000002,"end":147.87284375000002,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":155.68596875,"end":167.21159375000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":167.53221875,"end":183.34409375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":183.81659375,"end":198.61596875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":199.44284375,"end":215.18721875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":215.69346875000002,"end":216.41909375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":217.19534375,"end":220.63784375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":220.68846875000003,"end":223.96221875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":224.29971875,"end":225.66659375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":225.70034375,"end":249.44346875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":249.93284375000002,"end":263.34846875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":263.83784375,"end":264.12471875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":264.52971875000003,"end":271.92096875000004,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":272.05596875000003,"end":283.12596875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":283.49721875,"end":283.88534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":284.74596875000003,"end":285.70784375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":286.31534375,"end":297.01409375000003,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":297.25034375,"end":334.52721875000003,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":334.52721875000003,"end":436.72221875,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":419.61096875000004,"end":421.31534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":436.72221875,"end":467.43471875000006,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":455.30159375000005,"end":455.50409375000004,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":467.90721875,"end":470.13471875000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":470.99534375,"end":471.85596875000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":472.19346875,"end":496.15596875000006,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":495.53159375,"end":549.5990937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker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"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":759.94596875,"end":761.73471875,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":761.73471875,"end":770.2903437500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":767.8940937500001,"end":768.8728437500001,"speaker_score":0.863},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":769.8178437500001,"end":771.2522187500001,"speaker_score":0.863}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.328,"end":21,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我是這個醫藥法部分條文的提案委員剛剛沒有提案說明就請主席多個兩分鐘就好了好 主席請坐 謝謝今天提出醫藥法第49條50條還有24級106以及98之一的修正草案那分別是針對醫藥"},{"start":22.702,"end":27.73,"text":"醫療社團法輪的這個困境來做解套包含醫療的暴力的防治與醫療鑑定拒絕的爭議的這樣問題那當初醫療社團法輪的這個制度是從民國93年"},{"start":34.736,"end":54.545,"text":"醫療法修正後創設到現在已經二十百年以地區醫院和區域醫院為主當初為了這個制度是要協助私人醫院轉型達到永續在當時的這個時空背景下衛生署擔心醫療體系的公益性受到影響所以加了一個規定法人不得為醫療社團法人的社員"},{"start":55.714,"end":72.708,"text":"然後這樣的一個限制二十多年後的今天卻已經成為掐住這個地區或區域醫院的一道魔咒讓這些地區區域醫院無法順利轉型或升級進而影響到當地病患就醫的權益影響甚大所以才提這個部分提案的修正草案"},{"start":73.368,"end":89.66,"text":"那針對醫療暴力的問題在今年1月起台中澄清醫院、南投東華醫院、新店更新醫院陸陸續續持續的發生多起暴力事件這些暴力事件嚴重影響醫療現場安全與照護品質為維護醫療秩序與人員的安全保障病人獲得穩定照護師權利"},{"start":90.581,"end":101.845,"text":"所以本席提案來修正醫療機構應強化建立暴力防治的機制同時加重處罰緩緩醫療暴力一再重演那最後針對的是刑事鑑定的新制實施後造成無疑似專業人員願意擔任刑事訴訟程序之鑑定人或"},{"start":109.348,"end":136.585,"text":"醫事審議委員會的這個審定的等問題嚴重影響到醫療司法案件的進行因此要解決並同時能夠兼顧條約形式醫事鑑定的制度的客觀性公平性那促使這個形式的醫療案件之機關鑑定制度得以順利進行所以本席也提案來徵修這個醫療法第98條之一的規定以上的說明那也請公部門還有委員的同仁來"},{"start":139.194,"end":166.487,"text":"那部長 有請部長了今天招委很辛苦 排了兩個案特別針對醫療法這個修法 曹安中我是針對49條 我是也有提案做這個修法那這兩條是有關於醫療社團化人這部分部長應該非常清楚這承遠的相關規定93年到現在他就是剛剛我特別在修法的說明特別提到說協助地區的私立醫院的永續核轉型"},{"start":168.228,"end":182.081,"text":"讓這些的私人醫院不會再因為沒有子女醫師資格繼承使得這些地區醫院被迫關門所以醫療法也增訂了醫療社團法人的概念來協助這些地區私人醫院可以持續為地方來服務那90年到現在20來年了"},{"start":184.043,"end":197.283,"text":"現在大概應該剩下三五六十家啦那其中還有幾家病床數也高達一千多床的規模的地區醫院的存在那這些醫院長期跟地方居民連結甚至很多醫療不足的地方來說"},{"start":199.488,"end":215.949,"text":"我們針對這些醫療社交環境的醫院他還也兼顧著這個急重症或急救醫院的責任所以他對所在地的民眾的意義可以說是好像是守護了一個土地公還是守護神的一樣的存在那我們對"},{"start":217.23,"end":246.539,"text":"不管是手術成徒立功在目前的醫療法的限制下面臨很大的營運上的一個困難尤其是面對醫療的科技日新月累過去的老建築物或設備已經無法跟上這個治療需求要擴建增購設備需要高額資金使這些醫療社團法人在從事資金上就出現很大的一個困難嘛齁如果財團法人醫院像長庚一樣他有說除了公益捐助還有稅務優惠那財團法人醫院本身在賦稅上也有很多的兼免"},{"start":247.299,"end":262.999,"text":"這些在醫療社團法人通通沒有這個很奇怪啦那社團法人的醫藥是以自然能為社員組成財政部認定理屬於投資共同經營的概念所以因此要繳營利事業所的稅未分配營餘還是要再加徵"},{"start":264.881,"end":281.749,"text":"一樣在地福商經營,卻是兩套的次度財團法輪的醫院可以從捐贈來獲得資金例如還有公立醫院,如台大、榮總、不利醫院等等是醫院一樣都有公務預算的相關預支"},{"start":283.61,"end":303.736,"text":"那這些私營醫院根本不可能所以現在雲霧料也一直在上漲然後很多的這些藥品、備品等等也都在上漲連現在的包裝那個只要是塑膠的都持續在上漲中所以我想要聽部長的意見就針對這些醫療社童法人"},{"start":305.456,"end":333.029,"text":"在地的守護神、土地公、老舊院舍無法升級無法購得更升級的設備遇到天災人禍無法及時的修繕死最終他受傷最嚴重的還是在地最無辜的病患所以我們當初醫療社團外的設立就是希望這些地區的事業能夠永續經營服務地方但是被醫療法掐住了他們快沒辦法喘氣了所以因此真的不得不修法的地步部長認同嗎"},{"start":335.11,"end":354.789,"text":"我非常認同剛剛委員的這些提案的背景跟這個緣由啦事實上就如同委員所提到這個最早在修醫療社團法人這個49條的時候是著眼於我們過去只有私人醫院只有以個人來興辦那但是呢"},{"start":355.41,"end":379.539,"text":"可能因為凋零或者是他沒有辦法永續經營的情形之下希望以法人的形式成立所以才有捐助性質的醫療財團法人跟還是以個人的資本那麼融合的醫療社團法人這兩種的法人形態不過當時候只限縮在自然人為社員"},{"start":380.459,"end":402.618,"text":"甚至今日呢 其實這個社會的這個背景也都改變了我舉例而言 以這個長照法人而言就已經是允許法人為社員那麼這個也有先例了那只是說長照法人法是後面比較新的法律那這個醫療法是比較前面的 比較早期的所以我們現在來檢討"},{"start":405.04,"end":427.599,"text":"讓這個醫療社團法人的組成能夠更具有一個彈性跟來源我覺得是一個好的時機啦那麼只是說我們還是希望呢那麼能夠兼顧到這個醫療的這個公益的本質所以在未來這樣有法人那麼進入到這個醫療社團法人的這一些管理的這個"},{"start":429.8,"end":448.713,"text":"方式可能我們再來討論如何讓他這個適當的管理能讓維持住他的公益本性反正部長答覆我基本上就是朝向朝向更包容更多元的方式來做這個修法對不起我不是不讓你講下去因為我答應我的兩個同事我不能超過時間"},{"start":451.154,"end":471.628,"text":"這個林刺在去年,林刺啦,美麗的林刺長齁,他說如果開放盈利性的法人入主醫療社團法人後,容易透過關西企業進行高價租賃採購外包與收入租會等,可能讓醫療社團法人成為困苦中心,侵蝕醫療本業資源。不曉得部長怎麼看?"},{"start":472.244,"end":500.793,"text":"好 我想是這樣就是說當我們有盈利性的法人入主到這個醫療社團法人之後那我們如何透過我們法規的修訂讓盈餘的部分仍然有更多的比例可以留在這個醫療社團法人而不是分配回去這個原本的盈利性法人我覺得這個是在管理上我們可以來設計的對 這個一定是可以規範的啦 對不對好 不曉得在看這個表格啦這張表格"},{"start":501.613,"end":516.472,"text":"大致上就活為這個樣子嘛 設立了基礎就我就不再去說這個你非常熟悉理論上醫院就是公益事業啦哪有你混財團法人還是社團法人基本上就這樣對不對但就制度的分類確實有這樣的差異性存在這也是不尊的事實嘛"},{"start":516.992,"end":541.536,"text":"所以市長擔憂如果開放異性法人入署醫療社團法人就可能讓醫院的公益性質消失殆盡我覺得我們要擔憂這個問題之前應該到底什麼時候才要面對已經有營利事實的這些醫療財團法人我們大家都知道長坤的醫療財團法人這個舊的大醫院他手上持有台塑世保的股票對不對"},{"start":542.256,"end":566.955,"text":"2017年那個時候應該部長在當144的司長那時候發生什麼事 急診風暴 對不對然後你知道當時是因為急診部的成本負擔過重常跟以急診部的高階主管業績不達標準為由借出或乘主多位急診室的主管然後並縮編 於縮編這個急診部這個是高度營業取向的惡性事件"},{"start":568.316,"end":589.892,"text":"這句話要講十分鐘也說不完因為他當時大企業不敢讓這個急診室的醫生走嘛從護院調了很多的急診室的醫師回來嘛 對不對還調到哪裡 調到麥寮長庚麥寮長庚才幾個急診室的醫生兩個而已 他把他調一個回來另外一個急診室的醫師 他每天就自己要急診了啦慘了"},{"start":594.876,"end":616.714,"text":"那我們對醫療財團法人我們是這樣的寬度這個實在太離譜了這個再講就會超過大約他們的時間現在目前提到說政府給醫療財團法人有很多的稅務減免且醫法必須分別提撥這個醫療的收入結益的10%作為社福金或教研金承擔醫療公益的責任2019年監察院調查有高達41%的財團法人醫院社福金提撥不足"},{"start":622.218,"end":648.747,"text":"現在到底怎樣我不知道啦這要不斷了解一下這些巨大的醫療財團法人如果衛福部這樣處理然後又對照社團的醫療法人我就覺得真的是極盡的沒有道理不公平嘛所以我現在想說給部長再一句話參考看看啦針對這個醫療社團法人的討論也不是現在才有這個林青已經探討非常久這當時2025年"},{"start":653.629,"end":678.223,"text":"有人提出這樣一個論引力並非罪惡引力法人只要用良好的法令制度規範使其正常營運一樣可以造福社會反之披著公益法人的外皮如未在良善制度下給予適當監督其公益外皮下的營利性不亞於營利法人且脫序後將變成營少數人之利的工具"},{"start":680.404,"end":706.23,"text":"我第一張很懂嘛盈利並非罪惡這是對的但是我們所有的醫院是不應以盈利為目的但是也不能夠虧損虧損的話就是變成是這個社會國家要去負擔所以他還是應該要有適當的盈餘才能做員工的福利薪資的改善新進設備的更新這些都是必要的所以"},{"start":706.95,"end":731.203,"text":"主管機關的責任是不論他是醫療社團法人不論是醫療財團法人應該要有適當的監管那當然這個要本於法律上的授權規定來執行至於盈餘的分配就變成是後面的重點那麼以財團法人來講醫療財團法人是不得分配盈餘那醫療社團法人跟私人醫院是可以分配盈餘"},{"start":732.763,"end":754.909,"text":"這個部分還是有落差 這我當然知道因為時間的關係我失業到了嘛所以我是本期就是希望我們可以透過良好的這樣的一個法令的制度規範嘛讓這個疫療的社團法人能正常的營運繼續長久的守護所在的地區的民眾的健康安全嘛那我也希望部長有決心啦能夠提出這個相關的修法用良好的法令制度來規範這個疫療財團法人也能正常營運"},{"start":759.39,"end":763.795,"text":"這個部長應該OK我支持劉委員的看法好 謝謝 好時間到 因為他已經想您了不能超過因為兩個女人 虎視眈眈看著我好 謝謝 謝謝劉委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:49:59.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:49:59.828000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:49:59.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:50:07.133000+08:00","text":"我是醫藥法部分條文的提案委員，剛剛沒有提案說明，就請主席多給個兩分鐘就好了。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:50:08.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:50:10.276000+08:00","text":"好，主席請坐，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:50:10.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:50:50.545000+08:00","text":"今天提出醫療法第四十九條、第五十條、還有第二十四及第一百零六條，以及第九十八條之一的修正草案，分別是針對醫療社團法人的困境來解套，包含醫療暴力防治與醫療鑑定具結爭議這些問題，當初醫療社團法人的這個制度是從民國93年醫療法修正後，創設到現在已經二十來年，係以地區醫院和區域醫院為主，當初這個制度是要協助私人醫院轉型，達到永續，在當時的時空背景下，衛生署擔心醫療體系的公益性受到影響，所以加了一個規定，法人不得為醫療社團法人的社員。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:50:52.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:51:08.688000+08:00","text":"這樣的限制在二十多年後的今天，卻已經成為掐住地區或區域醫院的一道魔咒，讓這些地區、區域醫院無法順利轉型或升級，進而對當地病患就醫的權利影響甚大，所以才提這個部分條文的修正草案。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:51:10.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:51:22.538000+08:00","text":"針對醫療暴力的問題，在今年1月起，臺中澄清醫院、南投東華醫院、新店耕莘醫院陸陸續續、持續發生多起暴力事件，這些暴力事件嚴重影響醫療現場安全與照護品質。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:51:22.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:51:34.524000+08:00","text":"為維護醫療秩序與人員的安全，保障病人獲得穩定照護之權利，所以本席提案修正，醫療機構應強化建立暴力防治機制，同時加重處罰，防範醫療暴力一再重演。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:51:35.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:09.023000+08:00","text":"最後針對的是刑事鑑定的新制實施後，造成無醫事專業人員願意擔任刑事訴訟程序之鑑定人或醫事審議委員會審定等問題，嚴重影響到醫療司法案件的進行，因此要解決並同時能夠兼顧調和刑事、醫事鑑定制度的客觀性、公平性，促使刑事的醫療案件之機關鑑定制度得以順利進行，所以本席也提案增修醫療法第九十八條之一規定，以上說明。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:09.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:12.565000+08:00","text":"也請公部門還有各位委員同仁予以支持。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:16.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:16.614000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:16.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:18.875000+08:00","text":"請石崇良部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:18.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:20.376000+08:00","text":"今天召委很辛苦，排了兩個案。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:20.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:21.486500+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:21.486500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:22.597000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:22.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:33.082000+08:00","text":"在醫療法的修正草案中，我是針對第四十九條、第五十條有提案修法，這兩條是有關於醫療社團法人，這部分部長應該非常清楚。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:34.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:52:57.581000+08:00","text":"其成員的相關規定，自93年到現在，剛剛我特別在修法的說明中特別提到，它是為了協助地區私人醫院的永續和轉型，讓這些私人醫院不會再因為子女沒有醫師資格來繼承，使得這些地區醫院被迫關門，所以醫療法也增訂了醫療社團法人的概念來協助這些地區私人醫院可以持續為地方服務。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:52:57.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:53:05.772000+08:00","text":"93年到現在已二十來年了，現在大概應該剩下差不多五、六十家，其中還有幾家的病床數高達一千多床。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:53:08.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:53:30.727000+08:00","text":"這些醫院長期跟地方居民連結，甚至對於很多醫療不足的地方來說，這些醫療社團法人的醫院也肩負著急重症或急救醫院的責任，所以它對於所在地民眾的意義，可以說好像是土地公或守護神一樣的存在。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:53:33.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:53:53.136000+08:00","text":"不管是守護神或土地公，在目前醫療法的限制下，它面臨營運上很大的困難，尤其是面對醫療的科技日新月異，過去的老建築物或設備已經無法跟上治療需求，要擴建、增購設備就需要高額資金，使得這些醫療社團法人在籌措資金上出現很大的困難。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:53:54.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:54:06.543000+08:00","text":"而財團法人醫院例如長庚，除了公益捐助還有稅務優惠，財團法人醫院本身在賦稅上也有很多的減免，這些在醫療社團法人身上通通沒有，這個很奇怪。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:54:07.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:54:18.999000+08:00","text":"社團法人的醫院是以自然人為社員組成，財政部認定其屬於投資共同經營的概念，因此要繳營利業所得稅，未分配盈餘還是要再加徵。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:54:20.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:54:43.851000+08:00","text":"一樣在地扶傷救命，卻是兩套制度，財團法人的醫院可以從捐贈獲得資金，還有公立醫院如臺大、榮總、部立醫院、市立醫院等等，都有公務預算挹注，而這些私人醫院根本不可能。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:54:45.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:54:56.475000+08:00","text":"現在原物料也一直在上漲，然後很多的藥品、備品等等也都在上漲，連現在的包裝，只要是塑膠的都持續在上漲中。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:54:57.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:55:15.023000+08:00","text":"我想要聽聽部長的意見，針對這些醫療社團法人、在地的守護者、土地公，他們的老舊院舍無法升級，無法購得更先進的設備，遇到天災人禍無法及時修繕，其實最終受傷最嚴重的還是在地這些最無辜的病患。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:55:16.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:55:28.889000+08:00","text":"當初醫療社團法人設立，就是希望這些地區的私人醫院能夠永續經營、服務地方，現在卻被醫療法掐住了，他們快沒辦法喘氣了，因此真的到了不得不修法的地步。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:55:28.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:55:29.029000+08:00","text":"部長認同嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:55:31.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:56:12.478000+08:00","text":"我非常認同剛剛委員這些提案的背景跟緣由，事實上，就如同委員所提到，最早在第四十九條關於修醫療社團法人的時候，是著眼於我們過去私人醫院只有以個人來興辦，但是可能因為凋零或者是他沒有辦法永續經營的情形之下，希望以法人的形式成立，所以才有捐助性質的醫療財團法人跟還是以個人資本融合的醫療社團法人這兩種法人型態。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:56:12.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:56:21.644000+08:00","text":"不過當時只限縮在自然人為社員，時至今日，其實社會的背景也都改變了。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:56:22.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:56:56.333000+08:00","text":"舉例而言，長照法人就已經是允許法人為社員，那麼這個也有先例了，只是長照法人法是後面比較新的法律，而醫療法是比較前面的、比較早期的，所以我們現在來檢討，讓醫療社團法人的組成能夠更具有彈性跟來源，我覺得是一個好的時機，只是我們還是希望能夠兼顧到醫療公益的本質。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:56:56.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T15:56:57.333000+08:00","text":"當然、當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:56:57.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:57:12.545000+08:00","text":"對於未來有法人進入到醫療社團法人的這一些管理方式，我們可能要再來討論如何透過適當的管理讓它仍然維持住公益的本性。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:57:12.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:57:21.090000+08:00","text":"反正部長答復我的基本上就是朝向更包容、更多元的方式來修法？對。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:57:21.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:57:24.713000+08:00","text":"對不起，我不是不讓你講下去，因為我答應我的兩個同事不能超過時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:57:27.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:57:45.867000+08:00","text":"去年美麗的林次長說，若開放營利性的法人入主醫療社團法人後，容易透過關係企業進行高價租賃、採購、外包與售後租回等，可能讓醫療社團法人成為控股中心，侵蝕醫療本業資源。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:57:47.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:57:47.608000+08:00","text":"部長怎麼看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T15:57:50.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:10.851000+08:00","text":"當營利性的法人入主到醫療社團法人之後，如何透過法規修訂，讓盈餘仍然有更多的比例可以留在醫療社團法人，而不是分配回給原本的營利性法人，這個是在管理上我們可以來設計的。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:12.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:14.032000+08:00","text":"這個一定是可以規範的，對不對？對。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:14.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:22.279000+08:00","text":"部長，我們再看這張表格，大致上就分為包括設立的基礎等等，我就不再贅述，你非常熟悉。","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:23.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:27.005000+08:00","text":"理論上醫院就是公益事業，哪有分財團法人、社團法人？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:27.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:28.687000+08:00","text":"基本上就是這樣，對不對？對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:28.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:49.568000+08:00","text":"但就制度的分類，確實有這樣的差異性存在，這也是不爭的事實，所以次長擔憂如果開放營利性法人入主醫療社團法人可能讓醫院的公益性質消失殆盡，我覺得我們要擔憂這個問題之前，到底什麼時候才要面對已經有營利事實的這些醫療財團法人？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:50.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:58:57.536000+08:00","text":"大家都知道，醫療財團法人長庚是個救人的大醫院，它手上持有台塑四寶的股票，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:58:58.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:02.519000+08:00","text":"2017年部長應該是在當醫事司司長，那時候發生什麼事情？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:03.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:05.282000+08:00","text":"急診風暴，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:06.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:19.012000+08:00","text":"你知道當時是因為急診部的成本負擔過重，長庚以急診部的高階主管業績不達標準為由，解除或懲處多位急診室的主管，並擬縮編急診部。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:20.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:34.804000+08:00","text":"這種是高度營利取向的惡性事件，這件事情講10分鐘也講不完，因為當時大企業承受不了被這些小醫生不配合，從分院調了很多急診室的醫師回來，對不對？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:34.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:35.685000+08:00","text":"還調哪裡的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:35.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:39.287000+08:00","text":"調到麥寮長庚，麥寮長庚急診室才幾個醫生？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:40.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:45.872000+08:00","text":"兩個而已，他調一個回來，另外一個急診室的醫師，每天就要被急診了，太扯了！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:50.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:55.560000+08:00","text":"我們對醫療財團法人是這樣的寬容，這個實在太離譜了！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:56.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T15:59:59.303000+08:00","text":"這部分再講下去就會超過我答應他們的時間了。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T15:59:59.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:00:09.992000+08:00","text":"目前政府給醫療財團法人很多稅賦減免，且依法必須分別提撥醫療收入結餘的10%做為社福金或教研金，承擔醫療公益的責任。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:00:10.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:00:18.638000+08:00","text":"2019年監察院調查，高達41%的財團法人醫院社福金提撥不足，現在到底怎麼樣？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:00:18.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:00:19.078000+08:00","text":"我不知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:00:19.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:00:22.079000+08:00","text":"這個部分讓部長更加了解一下。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:00:22.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:00:33.923000+08:00","text":"這些巨大的醫療財團法人，如果衛生部是這樣處理，對照社團的醫療法人，我覺得真的極盡沒有道理，也不公平嘛！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:00:34.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:01:14.203000+08:00","text":"我現在再給部長一句話參考看看，針對醫療社團法人的討論不是現在才有，民間已經探討非常久，2025年有人提出這樣的論點，營利並非罪惡，營利法人只要用良好的法令制度規範，使其正常營運，一樣可以造福社會；反之，披著公益法人的外皮，如未在良善制度下給予適當監督，其公益外皮下的營利性不亞於營利法人，且脫去後將變成營少數人之利的工具。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:01:14.203000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:01:19.145000+08:00","text":"部長認同嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:01:19.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:01:41.690000+08:00","text":"營利並非罪惡，這是對的，所有的醫院不應以營利為目的，但是也不能夠虧損，虧損的話就變成社會國家要去負擔，所以它還是應該要有適當的盈餘，才能做員工的福利、薪資的改善、新進設備的更新，這些都是必要的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:01:42.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:01:54.776000+08:00","text":"主管機關的責任是，不論是醫療社團法人或醫療財團法人，都應該要有適當的監管，當然，這要本於法律的授權規定執行。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:01:55.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:07.203000+08:00","text":"至於盈餘的分配就變成後面的重點，以法人來講，醫療財團法人不得分配盈餘，醫療社團法人和私人醫院可以分配盈餘，所以未來這個盈餘怎麼分配？","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:07.203000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:08.763000+08:00","text":"我們可以討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:08.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:12.204000+08:00","text":"這個部分還是有落差，這我當然知道，因為時間的關係，我的發言時間到了嘛！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:13.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:24.787000+08:00","text":"本席希望可以透過良好的法令制度規範，讓醫療社團法人能正常營運，繼續長久的守護所在地區民眾的健康安全。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:25.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:27.108000+08:00","text":"我也希望部長有決心啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:27.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:30.909000+08:00","text":"能夠提出相關修法，用良好的法令制度規範醫療財團法人，讓它也能正常營運。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:35.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:35.671000+08:00","text":"這個部分部長應該OK吧？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:35.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:37.593000+08:00","text":"我支持劉委員的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:37.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:37.873000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:38.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:39.775000+08:00","text":"時間到了，已經響鈴了，不能超過時間，因為兩個女人虎視眈眈看著我，有一定程度的壓力，謝謝。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:39.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:39.795000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴代）","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:40.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:42.866429+08:00","text":"謝謝劉建國委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴代）","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:43.166429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:46.309286+08:00","text":"接下來請黃秀芳委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}