{"error":false,"id":["168982"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168982,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168982","日期":"2026-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-29T16:02:52+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-29T16:14:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee84b66dfab7beec85fd84e55221ec8869c0f4adde2d2cfc6c0f95517a371d75927e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"16:02:52 - 16:14:36","會議時間":"2026-04-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（下午2時30分起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查\n(一)委員柯志恩等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員林月琴等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王育敏等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n二、審查\n(一)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「醫療法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員洪申翰、賴惠員等17人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「醫療法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「醫療法第八十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員王正旭等24人擬具「醫療法增訂第七十一條之一條文草案」案。\n(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「醫療法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具「醫療法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(十)委員賴惠員等20人擬具「醫療法第八十四條及第一百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員李彥秀等16人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「醫療法第八十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員劉建國等18人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法第四十九條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)委員劉建國等16人擬具「醫療法增訂第九十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(十七)委員林思銘等23人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十八)委員羅智強等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十九)委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十)委員蘇清泉等22人擬具「醫療法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一)委員羅明才等16人擬具「醫療法第十條、第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四)委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「醫療法第一百零二條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(二十四)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答，下午1時30分起辦理發言】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":1.27971875,"end":3.10221875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":5.39721875,"end":6.8990937500000005,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":7.1353437500000005,"end":8.114093750000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":11.94471875,"end":13.379093750000003,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":12.24846875,"end":98.32784375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":18.32346875,"end":18.35721875,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":18.37409375,"end":18.660968750000002,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":22.86284375,"end":23.28471875,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":31.70534375,"end":32.11034375,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":35.95784375,"end":36.27846875,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":97.68659375,"end":181.36971875,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":116.24909375,"end":116.77221875000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":119.50596875000001,"end":119.94471875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":122.71221875,"end":123.20159375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":135.03096875,"end":135.36846875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":151.99034375000002,"end":152.32784375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":163.02659375000002,"end":163.34721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":164.20784375000002,"end":165.25409375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":181.90971875000002,"end":207.45846875,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":184.49159375000002,"end":184.94721875000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":205.39971875,"end":205.46721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":206.78346875000003,"end":207.05346875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":207.10409375,"end":216.87471875000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":209.77034375000002,"end":211.05284375000002,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":217.51596875,"end":254.65784375,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":245.37659375,"end":245.95034375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":246.84471875000003,"end":247.36784375000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":249.07221875000002,"end":249.56159375000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":254.11784375000002,"end":284.32409375000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":261.30659375,"end":261.57659375000003,"speaker_score":0.848},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":284.61096875000004,"end":313.43346875000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":313.66971875,"end":319.44096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":320.30159375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我們請部長"},{"start":14.021,"end":31.026,"text":"在這個凱凱案社工招判刑的這個問題那衛福部在之前也有召集跟社工界進行座談我看到就是說跟社工界還有那個法務部司法院還有法界專家代表大家進行座談討論那針對這個保證人的地位有進行討論"},{"start":36.147,"end":61.138,"text":"那我想這個會後我看到就是說會後次長有針對這一部分就是說將給予第一線專業人員實質的保障那衛福部就是考慮參考醫療法的精神修訂社會工作施法未來社工有故意或過失或違反了注意義務或專業裁量範圍者才須負民行事責任"},{"start":61.798,"end":87.739,"text":"好那針對這一部分我想請教因為這個法件對於保證人的這個地位是不是適用在社工還沒有就是還沒有確定還沒有定論那這個針對這一部分就是說我們很多就是要用具體的這個個案或情境來做判斷才會比較正確那部長就是說如果"},{"start":88.619,"end":111.674,"text":"依據這個個案或情境來判斷那麼就會需要有社會工作專業的鑑定機制是不是這樣子跟委員說明確實就是說這一次的這個判決引用了保證人地位這樣的法律概念那麼在我們日前所召開的這些專家會議裡面當然也有不同的看法"},{"start":112.054,"end":126.072,"text":"所以這個大概還不是整個法界的共同的概念就是我們的社工都是要適用這樣的公正人保證人地位的這樣的概念這是第一個那第二個呢當然就是希望那麼讓這樣子"},{"start":127.654,"end":146.627,"text":"像這個醫事人員一樣我們社工在第一線從事的業務其實也是救死扶傷那麼也具有很多的不確定性很多的緊急急迫性等等的這個救人的事情所以呢那麼希望能夠我們也來討論比較像醫事人員一樣讓他"},{"start":147.648,"end":165.044,"text":"在民刑事應付的責任上面能夠合理明確所以這個可能我們會來研議看看是不是要來修訂社工司法這樣但是畢竟它還是有很多的落差每個個案還是有它的不同"},{"start":165.584,"end":179.048,"text":"所以當然我們盡量的訂各種的工作守則或者是指引可是這個就像醫療一樣你再怎麼訂這些指引守則都還是有一些例外的情形會發生所以如何循著這個專業"},{"start":182.549,"end":206.064,"text":"團體的這個同儕這個鑑定的模式像我們現在的這個意識鑑定或者是專業意見的概念一樣那麼在同儕的標準上來衡量這個當事人的行為有沒有這個超越了我們的所謂的常規或者是應注意的義務這樣"},{"start":207.285,"end":216.244,"text":"那所以你們現在正在收集各方的意見嗎對對對對對那像這樣子的話就是說這個指引要訂定這個指引你們需要多久的時間"},{"start":217.78,"end":244.662,"text":"指引是有各種不同的工作指引那只是說未來要去修這個社工司法去明定這樣的這個民刑事這個民刑事的責任那麼以及這個有發生正義過程的審議程序這個我們會再繼續收集意見那我們現在已經規劃在五六月會再辦這個市場分區"},{"start":245.663,"end":261.248,"text":"全國各區的這個社工第一線的一些座談會來收集意見之後那我們再來下半年來提出這個演繹這樣部長我一直在強調就是說社工服務的對象大部分都是比較屬於高脆弱的這個族群"},{"start":262.628,"end":286.648,"text":"所以當然就是說這個凱凱案發生我們當然是不樂見可是未來就是說社工的這個部分因為每個個案的狀況是不一樣的我們也希望就是說這個收集各界的意見然後指引趕快制定下來讓所有的社工有一個依據那接下來我想請教就是說看到我們所有的這個"},{"start":288.169,"end":310.304,"text":"就是社福的這個服務好多大部分好像地方的社會處我們彰化地方的社會處他就會委託給一般的這個社福團體好就一些服務的案件或者是需要服務的就是委託給地方的這個社福團體那其實我也看到就是說有一些社福團體他們也會反映就是說"},{"start":312.606,"end":318.772,"text":"很多他們有的還需要可能就是你們用那個總發價包總包價法總包價法的這種方式來把這個業務這個發包給這個民間的社福團體那這樣子的話就是說有一些矛盾就是"},{"start":335.667,"end":348.379,"text":"產生契約約定還有那個實際的給付的一些矛盾那有的是造成就是承包承包的這個社會團體他們有很大的一個困擾甚至有些這些這些民間的這個團體他們可能就是用這個總包價法那其實整個"},{"start":354.485,"end":368.721,"text":"可能這個費用也不夠所以他們還要必須去募款那有的是影響整個服務的品質所以我想請教就是說未來衛福部有沒有去研議就是說比較合理然後可行的處理方式"},{"start":369.782,"end":391.662,"text":"跟委員說明我們有一個社會福利服務採購溝通協商指引這裡面就包含了這些契約的範本補助作業要點經費編列等等的一些原則我們現在在檢討這個指引我們把它做一些比較和實務上的需要的一些修訂"},{"start":392.522,"end":410.778,"text":"我希望就是說政府既然有這麼多的社福的這種案件是需要委託民間團體來做那你當然就是說要讓這一個服務品質好然後也不要就是說好像要壓榨這些社福團體其實我覺得這樣都不好當然政府你就是要讓這些社福團體有"},{"start":417.924,"end":429.955,"text":"足夠的這個經費來做這個服務因為服務的對象其實我剛剛講的都是比較脆弱的一個族群所以我希望部長針對這部分我們希望能夠從"},{"start":432.028,"end":456.2,"text":"我們衛福部本身來做起那甚至我們可以要求地方政府就是當然就是預算如果充足的話這個民間團體 民間的社福團體他們可以把我們的政府發報給他們這個政府可以做得好如果沒辦法的話其實我覺得那個品質一定是會有打折的啦所以我希望部長針對這一部分我們能夠"},{"start":458.022,"end":477.921,"text":"針對這一部分可以讓社福團體一層包政府的業務不要讓他們覺得說好像政府用少少的經費然後就需要民間社福團體來做大大的服務我覺得這樣是不對的啦當然就是說這個預算是充足然後讓他們沒有後顧之憂"},{"start":479.982,"end":505.834,"text":"當然跟委員說明確實我們過去對各項的經費的使用都會從防弊的角色來看所以都會很嚴謹的訂很多但是確實應該要讓第一線在執行的單位能夠具有它的一些彈性跟制度性所以我們來訂一些大原則然後保留一些彈性這樣"},{"start":506.854,"end":524.68,"text":"因為你們當然也要輔導他們怎麼樣去做這些這個合帳合銷這些也是很重要免得這個到時候這個延伸其他的問題當然是不好啊對所以我希望就是說政府單位把業務"},{"start":526.221,"end":552.862,"text":"這個委託或者是這個發包給民間的團體那當然我們也要制定我剛剛講的這個也許你也要有一些比較合理的方式來跟他們我跟他們說這是政府跟地方這個合作就是最好的一個合作的方式因為你政府沒辦法做那麼多工作嘛那當然就是需要民間大家大家做會來合作好那才能讓這個社會能夠需要幫助的人能夠得到好的幫助"},{"start":553.722,"end":580.492,"text":"那另外我想請教部長就是說我一直在覺得說目前的社工我講的真的非常的辛苦啦那尤其是那個保護性的這個社工保護性的社工因為我一直聽到就是說其實保護性的社工那他們的那個風險其實比一般的社工也高或者是比一般的職業也都高因為我講的他們面對的就是可能就是"},{"start":581.753,"end":587.185,"text":"比較脆弱的一個族群那像這樣子的話就是社工的這個薪資因為"},{"start":590.197,"end":610.735,"text":"一般的社工可能就超過三萬八、三萬九那保護性的社工可能差不多四萬二左右那可能還有一個這個風險津貼大約還有一個一千塊的風險津貼那像這樣子的話是不是可以去考慮一下未來公部門的約聘僱的社工的待遇是不是有調整的空間"},{"start":612.357,"end":638.914,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個還有新點還有風險加急這兩塊可以大家來調整新點可能會按照物價風險就看到他實務上他所工作上的屬性來調整所以我們來檢討看看按照實際上的風險程度跟近年的社會消費的情形我們來做檢討"},{"start":642.437,"end":655.469,"text":"來努力調整我希望部長真的因為大家這個衛福部是照顧我們所有民眾不論是在福利或者是健康衛福部站的真的是非常重要的一個角色那當然這個我們在"},{"start":657.971,"end":671.403,"text":"基層或者是這些需要被幫助的人其實有一些就是我們衛福部基層的地方政府還有民間團體大家一起來合作所以我覺得說讓第一線的社工能夠願意留在職場"},{"start":673.385,"end":699.03,"text":"第一線社工願意留在職場 我覺得這是很重要的所以我覺得願意留在職場你當然就是薪資你不能讓他覺得說我做其他工作薪資都還比我當社工還高那這樣他可能就會跳槽到其他工作去所以讓這些社工願意留在這個地方那我覺得薪資也許可以從工部門的這些社工開始是不是可以做一個適度的一個調整好 謝謝"},{"start":704.114,"end":704.718,"text":"謝謝環秀方位的咨詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:57.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:02:58.145000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T16:02:58.145000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:01.123667+08:00","text":"請石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:01.123667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:04.102333+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:04.102333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:07.081000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:07.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:15.443000+08:00","text":"針對剴剴案社工遭判刑這個問題，衛福部之前也有召集社工界進行座談。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:15.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:37.011000+08:00","text":"我看到的是和社工界、法務部、司法院和法界專家代表進行座談，針對保證人的地位也進行討論，會後次長有針對這部分表示，將給予第一線專業人員實質的保障。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:38.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:03:53.118000+08:00","text":"衛福部考慮參考醫療法的精神修訂社會工作師法，未來社工有故意或過失或違反注意義務，或專業裁量範圍者，才須負民刑事責任。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:03:54.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:04:17.777000+08:00","text":"針對這部分，我想請教，因為法界對於保證人的地位是不是適用社工還沒有定論，這部分很多都是用具體個案或情境做判斷才會比較正確。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:04:18.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:04:31.646000+08:00","text":"部長，如果依據個案或情境判斷，就需要有社會工作專業的鑑定機制，是不是這樣子？對嘛？確實。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:04:32.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:04:55.889000+08:00","text":"這一次這個判決引用了保證人地位的法律概念，在我們日前所召開的這些專家會議裡面，當然也有不同的看法，所以這大概還不是整個法界的共同概念，也就是社工都要適用保證人地位的概念，這是第一個。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:04:56.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:05:29.837000+08:00","text":"第二個，像醫事人員一樣，其實社工在第一線從事的業務也是救死扶傷，也是具有很多不確定性、很多緊急、急迫性等等救人的事情，所以我們也希望能夠討論比照醫事人員，讓他在民刑事應負的責任上面能夠合理、明確，所以這個部分我們會研議是不是要修訂社工師法。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:05:32.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:05:37.024000+08:00","text":"畢竟它還是有很多落差，每個個案還是有所不同。對。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:05:38.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:05:59.352000+08:00","text":"當然我們會儘量訂各種工作守則或者指引，可是這就像醫療一樣，你再怎麼訂這些指引、守則，還是有一些例外的情形會發生，所以如何循專業團體的同儕鑑定模式？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:05:59.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:06:18.064000+08:00","text":"像現在的醫事鑑定或者是專業意見的概念，就同儕的標準來衡量當事人的行為有沒有超越所謂的常規，或者是應注意的義務。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:06:19.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:06:23.354000+08:00","text":"所以你們現在正在蒐集各方的意見，是不是？對。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:06:23.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:06:27.262000+08:00","text":"像這樣子的話，你們需要多久時間訂定這個指引？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:06:30.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:06:51.538000+08:00","text":"會有各種不同的工作指引，只是未來要修社工師法明定民刑事責任以及發生爭議的審議程序，這個部分我們會再繼續蒐集意見。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:06:51.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:07:05.185000+08:00","text":"我們現在已經規劃五、六月會再辦四場全國各區社工第一線的座談會，蒐集意見之後，我們下半年會提出研議。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:07:07.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:07:34.064000+08:00","text":"部長，我一直在強調，社工服務的對象大部分比較屬於高脆弱的族群，我們當然不樂見剴剴案的發生，可是未來社工這個部分，因為每個個案的狀況是不一樣的，我們也希望蒐集各界的意見，指引要趕快制定下來，讓所有社工有一個依據。好。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:07:34.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:07:57.281000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請教，大部分的社福服務，像彰化社會處，它就會委託給一般的社福團體，就是一些服務案件，或者是需要服務的，就是委託給地方的社福團體。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:07:57.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:08:38.878000+08:00","text":"其實有一些社福團體也會反映，你們會用總包價法的方式把業務發包給民間的社福團體，這樣會有一些矛盾，就是產生契約約定和實際給付的一些矛盾，有的會造成承包的社福團體很大的困擾。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:08:38.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:08:53.853000+08:00","text":"甚至這些民間團體會因為總包價法，導致費用可能不夠，所以他們還必須去募款，有時候會影響整個服務的品質。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:08:55.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:09:00.701000+08:00","text":"請教衛福部有沒有研議未來比較合理、可行的處理方式？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:09:02.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:09:23.662000+08:00","text":"我們有一個社會福利服務採購溝通協商指引，這裡面就包含契約範本、補助作業要點、經費編列等等原則，我們現在在檢討這個指引，做一些比較適合實務上需要的修訂。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:09:26.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:09:41.056000+08:00","text":"政府既然有這麼多社福案件需要委託民間團體來做，當然要讓這個部分的服務品質好，也不要好像是要壓榨這些社福團體，我覺得這樣都不好啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:09:41.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:10:08.490000+08:00","text":"當然政府要讓這些社福團體有足夠的經費來做這個服務，因為服務的對象就像我剛剛講的，其實都是比較脆弱的族群，所以針對這部分，我們希望能夠從衛福部本身做起，甚至可以要求地方政府。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:10:10.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:10:24.238000+08:00","text":"預算如果充足，民間的社福團體就可以把政府發包給他們的業務做好；如果沒辦法的話，我覺得品質一定是會打折的。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:10:32.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:10:45.477000+08:00","text":"當社福團體承包政府的業務時，不要讓他們覺得政府好像就是用少少的經費，卻要民間社福團體做大大的服務，我覺得這樣是不對的。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:10:45.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:10:49.921000+08:00","text":"當然預算必須是充足的，讓他們沒有後顧之憂。好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:10:53.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:16.993000+08:00","text":"確實，我們過去對各項的經費使用都會從防弊的角色來看，所以都會有很多嚴謹的規定，但是確實應該要讓第一線執行的單位能夠有一些彈性和自主性，所以我們來訂一些大原則啦！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:17.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:17.814000+08:00","text":"保留一些彈性。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:18.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:19.814000+08:00","text":"因為你們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:19.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:28.417000+08:00","text":"當然也要輔導他們怎麼核帳、核銷，這些也是很重要的，免得到時候又衍生其他的問題也不好。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:29.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:31.898000+08:00","text":"對，又衍生其他的問題當然不好。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:33.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:48.028000+08:00","text":"我希望政府單位把業務委託或者發包給民間的團體時，就像我剛剛講的，也許你們也要有一些比較合理的方式。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:49.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:11:56.315000+08:00","text":"我覺得政府和地方合作就是一個最好的合作方式，因為政府沒辦法做這麼多工作。對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:11:57.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:12:04.842000+08:00","text":"當然就需要民間一起合作，才能讓社會上需要幫助的人能夠得到好的幫助。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:12:05.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:12:34.976000+08:00","text":"另外我想請教部長，我一直覺得目前社工真的非常辛苦，尤其是保護性的社工，因為我一直聽到他們的風險其實比一般的社工高，或者也比一般的職業高，因為他們面對的可能是比較脆弱的族群。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:12:42.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:13:02.735000+08:00","text":"一般的社工薪資差不多是3萬8,000元、3萬9,000元，保護性的社工差不多4萬2,000元左右，大約還有1,000元的風險津貼，是不是可以考慮一下，未來公部門的約聘僱社工待遇是不是有調整的空間？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:13:04.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:13:35.258000+08:00","text":"因為這個部分還有薪點、風險加給這兩塊可以調整，薪點可能會按照物價，風險就看實務上的工作屬性調整，所以我們來檢討，按照實際上的風險程度和近年的社會消費情形檢討，努力調整。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:13:35.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:13:46.968000+08:00","text":"我希望部長真的能做到，因為衛福部是照顧所有民眾，不論是福利或者健康，衛福部真的是非常重要的角色。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:13:51.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:14:08.105000+08:00","text":"這些需要被幫助的人其實有一些就是衛福部和基層的地方政府、民間團體一起合作，所以我覺得讓第一線的社工願意留在職場是很重要的。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-29T16:14:09.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:14:30.569000+08:00","text":"想讓他們願意留在職場，當然就不能讓他覺得做其他工作的薪資都比當社工還高，否則他可能就會跳槽到其他工作，所以要讓這些社工願意留在這個地方，也許從公部門的這些社工開始，薪資是不是可以適度的調整？謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-29T16:14:31.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:14:31.030000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T16:14:36.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T16:14:36.718000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一）","start":"2026-04-29T16:14:37.218000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T16:14:40.075143+08:00","text":"現在請林月琴召委質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}