{"error":false,"id":["169051"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169051,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169051","日期":"2026-04-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-30T10:37:54+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-30T10:45:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b51b6e95b687bd8ee75abfad58de89ab4094fdde23d63da599070a33b65dc58bbcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"10:37:54 - 10:45:32","會議時間":"2026-04-30T10:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算部分。\n二、\t審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n【4月29日及4月30日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":4.03034375,"end":5.2115937500000005,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":5.85284375,"end":8.08034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":8.29971875,"end":9.61596875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.910343750000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.33221875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":17.344718750000002,"end":26.01846875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":26.37284375,"end":29.984093750000003,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":30.27096875,"end":35.23221875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":35.63721875,"end":36.70034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":37.47659375,"end":41.12159375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":41.813468750000006,"end":44.445968750000006,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":44.81721875,"end":51.938468750000006,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":51.938468750000006,"end":56.815343750000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":51.955343750000004,"end":52.95096875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":57.50721875,"end":59.59971875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":57.59159375,"end":57.962843750000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":59.751593750000005,"end":62.45159375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":63.19409375,"end":68.10471875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":65.77596875,"end":66.40034375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":68.59409375,"end":68.89784375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":69.15096875,"end":76.13721875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":76.50846875,"end":84.13596875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":84.52409375,"end":85.75596875000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":86.11034375,"end":91.18971875000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":91.52721875,"end":92.18534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":92.59034375,"end":93.07971875000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":93.48471875,"end":95.00346875000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":95.99909375,"end":101.34846875000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":101.58471875000001,"end":104.21721875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":104.63909375,"end":105.31409375000001,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":105.70221875,"end":108.35159375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":108.70596875000001,"end":114.12284375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":114.49409375,"end":119.77596875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":119.97846875,"end":120.13034375000001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":120.53534375000001,"end":122.69534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":122.98221875,"end":127.30221875000001,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":127.40346875,"end":129.88409375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":130.23846875,"end":141.76409375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":141.03846875000002,"end":142.52346875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":142.52346875,"end":142.54034375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":143.51909375,"end":146.97846875000002,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":146.25284375,"end":149.61096875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":149.89784375000002,"end":153.96471875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":153.96471875,"end":159.04409375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":159.21284375000002,"end":164.49471875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":165.03471875000002,"end":170.46846875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":170.60346875000002,"end":172.17284375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":172.72971875000002,"end":176.50971875000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":177.15096875,"end":179.07471875000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":179.07471875000002,"end":179.32784375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":179.36159375,"end":194.04284375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":192.79409375,"end":199.17284375000003,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":197.02971875,"end":197.73846875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":199.17284375000003,"end":205.85534375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":202.54784375000003,"end":213.58409375000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":214.29284375,"end":219.76034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":220.43534375000002,"end":221.04284375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":221.38034375,"end":223.69221875000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":223.81034375000002,"end":230.50971875000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":231.21846875000003,"end":237.39471875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":237.83346875,"end":242.91284375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":243.38534375,"end":246.06846875000002,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":246.37221875,"end":251.68784375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":251.87346875000003,"end":253.51034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":254.32034375,"end":259.06221875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":259.85534375000003,"end":264.61409375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":265.06971875,"end":266.82471875000005,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":267.43221875,"end":271.85346875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":272.86596875000004,"end":276.30846875000003,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":277.65846875,"end":291.49596875000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":290.48346875000004,"end":293.23409375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":293.50409375000004,"end":296.35596875000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":296.50784375,"end":301.33409375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":300.86159375,"end":302.48159375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":302.41409375,"end":304.10159375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":302.49846875000003,"end":303.42659375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":303.78096875,"end":304.23659375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":304.30409375,"end":304.50659375000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":304.50659375000004,"end":313.45034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":304.57409375000003,"end":304.60784375000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":309.04596875000004,"end":314.12534375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":314.19284375,"end":314.71596875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":315.22221875,"end":316.97721875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":317.38221875,"end":323.47409375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":323.65971875,"end":323.94659375000003,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":324.01409375000003,"end":328.87409375000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":329.80221875,"end":333.31221875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":334.15596875,"end":334.66221875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":334.79721875,"end":347.95971875000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":348.68534375,"end":349.15784375000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":350.01846875,"end":355.43534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":355.03034375000004,"end":362.89409375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":363.16409375,"end":364.27784375000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":364.64909375,"end":366.52221875000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":366.33659375,"end":369.01971875000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":369.93096875000003,"end":374.04846875000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":375.04409375,"end":377.38971875000004,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":377.15346875,"end":379.65096875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":379.78596875000005,"end":380.37659375000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":380.95034375,"end":384.56159375000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":389.15159375,"end":393.28596875000005,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":393.69096875,"end":393.82596875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":394.28159375,"end":396.62721875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":397.48784375,"end":407.71409375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":407.95034375,"end":411.86534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":412.08471875000004,"end":421.04534375000003,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":421.45034375,"end":424.40346875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":424.63971875000004,"end":428.87534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":429.19596875,"end":430.49534375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":431.74409375000005,"end":434.19096875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":435.33846875,"end":436.19909375000003,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":436.55346875000004,"end":441.04221875,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":440.23221875,"end":440.50221875000005,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":441.66659375,"end":449.59784375000004,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":449.78346875000005,"end":449.80034375,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":449.80034375,"end":450.18846875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":450.18846875,"end":450.20534375000005,"speaker_score":0.917},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":450.20534375000005,"end":451.55534375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":451.70721875000004,"end":453.17534375,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":454.72784375000003,"end":456.06096875000003,"speaker_score":0.966}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.039,"end":6.946,"text":"好 謝謝主席然後接下來的話我們請這個國發會請國發會業主委"},{"start":18.28,"end":37.928,"text":"我想這個預算裡面大概都有看然後我想今天跟你討論的是這件事情就是說在我們國發基金裡頭因為ART的關係雖然你的ART MOE我們現在立法院還沒有收到但是根據2500億的美金保證"},{"start":41.84,"end":62.395,"text":"那初步的話呢 當時行政院這一個政府院長的話 他說大概準備金是62.5億美金大概我們要分五年喔那這個部分可不可以跟委員分享一下我們那個是期 不是年分五期五期 好那槓桿的倍數大概是20倍嘛"},{"start":63.24,"end":83.439,"text":"保證成數是五成所以那時候是在政府院長那邊好那這個地方來講的話我們就看到這裡頭所以我們想要了解一下這一個國發基金在這一個融資的信保這一塊的機制還有一些法源依據"},{"start":84.6,"end":94.197,"text":"因為為什麼因為我們在這個地方來講國發基金你說做國內的融資對不對投資這很正常但是我們現在這個是"},{"start":96.795,"end":119.25,"text":"對對對其他國對不對那企業去投資然後是國家提供這樣的融資保證那這個地方的法源依據跟信保的機制因為你們之前有討論嘛在差不多3月30號有說明會邀集38家公民銀行共同來參與嘛對不對那大概第一期國發基金說要出大概8億美金嘛240億台幣所以這個法源跟這個機制"},{"start":123.052,"end":149.441,"text":"第一個在那個我們那個國發基金裡面就有裡面就有一條就是說行政院專案核准的那一個專案核准的話我們就可以做這個也是一個國家的一個政策因為我們之前也有也有做過那個離岸封店那因為這個部分那這個要不要經過立法院這個部分應該不用因為像我們行政院院長說的就可以專案核定就可以"},{"start":150.363,"end":176.216,"text":"對這個部分是屬於專案核定的因為我們一般的規範大概在法規明定都是國內的投資那當然在這個會有一個破口這個破口就是行政院長專案核可除外所以這一段的話就變成說你看剛剛你也回答就是沒辦法送到立法院我們大概也只能事後所以這個可能就是一個全民監督的一個黑箱的一個"},{"start":177.682,"end":198.647,"text":"這個信用融資的保證這邊跟委員分享像我們以往在做融資保證那一部分到目前為止上一次做的話是零就是所有的那一個default rate是零所以其實它整個的機制在運作其實明白了過去的投資或融資都沒有問題不代表未來好不好凡是投資融資都有風險ok"},{"start":200.147,"end":213.058,"text":"但我想要跟委員分享說我們機制在運作上面來講是蠻完善的我只是點出這個問題啦因為我們也你也講得很清楚因為法規上的確有這一條行政院長專案核定"},{"start":214.349,"end":228.181,"text":"那我剛剛第二個問題你也說這個我們立法院沒辦法事先我們也大概只能事後再來看第二個就是我們國發基金的盈餘的運用因為根據過去來講的話大概從111年到113年"},{"start":231.28,"end":241.207,"text":"我們有盈餘大概都做一個腳庫啦E3還超額的一個腳庫嘛其他就是穩定那114年你的盈餘我看你編列出來是384.92億腳庫的話盈餘這邊全數保留那115年編列的話是盈餘290.26腳庫是在100億那我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":254.526,"end":274.368,"text":"在這當中因為回到我們前面講的就是國發基金這裡頭在對美ART這邊的話出8億美金大概差不多240億所以我就那時候就在懷疑懷疑而已就是你的114年盈餘這一塊地方的話扣起來感覺好像就是為了這個8億的240億"},{"start":277.711,"end":281.973,"text":"沒有 這個應該跟那個完全沒有關係因為我們後面的其實我們後面我們會跟那個財主單位去討論就是說有一些盈餘其實我們是可以不用繳庫的那你的發育美金要從哪裡 國發基金"},{"start":295.66,"end":316.569,"text":"對 會從國發基金但是我們那個是一個準備金啦我們也不是說破在那一邊那我們還是要先圈起來啦還是要先圈起來好不好我覺得你就是這個大概我的猜測應該沒有問題我也不敢叫你說沒有啦因為這個我不敢叫你回答業時會弄啦是沒有關係的將來你就看就知道了"},{"start":317.449,"end":332.983,"text":"再來因為是中東歐的融資基金這一塊是在2022年1月前主委龔明新這邊那我查你的預算書的時候這一個規模上面來講的話就感覺這個是他的子基金也不算你們的子基金"},{"start":334.229,"end":346.358,"text":"不算因為我現在沒有看到這個預算上面的編列但是你們的行政費用政府擔保責任所需的資金這個又已經支出了支應準備金3424萬所以"},{"start":350.066,"end":368.643,"text":"沒有在預算書看到但是又有看到這樣的支出準備金所以這是指什麼支出因為我們這是一個委外的一個表案所以這個部分我們目前是讓那個台山來負責負責這一個基金的可是台山那個是投資不是融資喔"},{"start":370.034,"end":395.529,"text":"融資基金是輸贏啦,就是那一個經營對,經營由輸出入銀行來負責那輸出入銀行放的話這個是國庫嗎?不算嘛可是我們現在把錢是放到這個輸出入銀行它也不算國庫啊就是說我在預算書裡頭是看不太到這樣子的支出跟費用所以我是覺得你們為什麼會這樣講?因為"},{"start":397.523,"end":420.634,"text":"因為在這裡頭主計處預算法的第9條有規定應擔保保證契約可能造成未來會計年度之支出者應於預算書中列表說明而且對國庫有重大影響可能要向立法院報告因為你這邊來講的話我們的這些的加保證的資金包含你現在擴大到10倍到12倍等等這些可能在未來"},{"start":421.494,"end":440.635,"text":"因為違約風險而產生的這個費用的支出我覺得這個要根據你的預算法主計出預算法的第九條來從實編列因為這個是在科目裡頭算貨有負債貨有負債沒關係我知道這個對你太困難一下沒辦法回答那我覺得"},{"start":441.721,"end":455.862,"text":"回去交個書面報告給我因為我覺得這個在根據主計數預算法我們就按照法條這樣子來處理好不好因為我預算書找不到OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝洪義祥委員主委先請回座"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:37:58.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:37:58.901000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:00.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:00.906000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請國發會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:00.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:00.926000+08:00","text":"請國發會葉主委。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:00.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:13.521000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:13.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:45.127000+08:00","text":"這個預算我大概都有看，我想今天跟你討論的是這一件事情，就是在國發基金裡頭，因為ART的關係，雖然ART、MOU現在立法院還沒有收到，但是根據2,500億美金的保證，初步的話，當時行政院鄭副院長有說準備金大概是62.5億美金，我們要分5年……","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:46.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:48.129000+08:00","text":"這個部分可不可以跟委員分享一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:48.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:50.530000+08:00","text":"我們那個是「期」，不是「年」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:51.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:53.232000+08:00","text":"喔，分5期，好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:55.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:38:59.262000+08:00","text":"槓桿的倍數大概就是20倍，保證成數是5成，所以那時候是在鄭副院長……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:38:59.262000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:01.284000+08:00","text":"最高是5成。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:01.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:02.625000+08:00","text":"是鄭副院長那邊。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:03.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:17.439000+08:00","text":"這個地方來講的話，我們想要了解一下國發基金在融資信保這一塊的機制，還有一些法源依據。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:18.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:31.836000+08:00","text":"因為就這個來講，國發基金做國內融資、投資是很正常的，但是我們現在是對其他國家，對不對？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:32.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:39.981000+08:00","text":"就是企業去投資，然後國家提供融資保證，那這個地方的法源依據跟信保機制為何？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:39.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:48.567000+08:00","text":"你們之前有討論過，在3月30號有說明會，邀集38家公民銀行共同參與，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:49.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:39:53.230000+08:00","text":"第一期國發基金說要出大概8億美金即240億臺幣，所以這個法源跟機制為何？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:39:57.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:14.678000+08:00","text":"第一個，在國發基金的投資作業規範裡面有一條是行政院專案核准的話我們就可以做，這也是國家的政策，因為我們之前也有做過離岸風電，因為這個部分其實……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:15.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:16.399000+08:00","text":"這個要不要經過立法院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:17.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:20.600000+08:00","text":"這個部分應該不用，因為像我們上一……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:20.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:23.421000+08:00","text":"行政院院長說了就可以，專案核定就可以了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:24.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:27.445000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分是屬於專案核定的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:28.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:38.290000+08:00","text":"因為我們一般的法規規範大概都是明定國內的投資，但是我覺得這是一個破口，這個破口就是行政院院長專案核可除外。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:39.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:40:53.883000+08:00","text":"這部分變成如同你剛剛的回答，就沒辦法送到立法院，我們大概也只能事後，所以這可能就是一個全民監督不到的黑箱信用融資保證。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:40:53.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:06.245000+08:00","text":"跟委員分享，像我們以往在做融資保證的部分，到目前為止，在上一次做的是零，就是所有的deferral是零，所以其實它整個的機制在運作……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:06.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:10.666000+08:00","text":"明白，過去的投資或融資都沒有問題不代表未來，好不好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:11.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:12.587000+08:00","text":"凡是投資、融資都有風險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:14.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:18.671000+08:00","text":"但我想要跟委員分享，我們在運作上的機制算蠻完善的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:18.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:27.038000+08:00","text":"我只是點出這個問題，因為你也講得很清楚，法規上的確有這一條，就是行政院院長專案核定嘛！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:28.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:33.574000+08:00","text":"我剛剛問的第二個問題你也說了，立法院沒辦法事先，我們大概只能事後再來看。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:34.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:49.943000+08:00","text":"第二個，國發基金的盈餘運用，根據過去從111年到113年，我們的盈餘大概都是繳庫，113年還超額的繳庫嘛！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:50.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:54.987000+08:00","text":"其他年度則是穩定，114年盈餘的編列是384.92億，繳庫的部分，其盈餘是全數保留；115年編列的盈餘是290.26億，繳庫大概是100億。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:41:55.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:41:55.207000+08:00","text":"我為什麼這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:08.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:22.041000+08:00","text":"這部分要回到我們前面講的，國發基金在對美ART出8億美金，大概差不多是240億，所以我那時候就在懷疑，懷疑而已啦！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:22.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:28.368000+08:00","text":"就是114年盈餘這一塊扣起來的話，感覺好像就是為了這個8億美金也就是臺幣240億。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:31.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:35.513000+08:00","text":"沒有，這個部分應該跟那個完全沒有關係，因為我們後面會跟財主單位討論，就是其實有一些盈餘我們是可以不用繳庫的，那個部分的話……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:35.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:35.933000+08:00","text":"那你的8億美金要從哪裡來？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:35.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:35.953000+08:00","text":"國發基金？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:49.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:55.002000+08:00","text":"對，會從國發基金，但那是一個準備金，我們也不是pool在那邊，我們……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:55.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:56.203000+08:00","text":"還是要先圈起來啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:56.203000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:57.203000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:56.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:42:57.943000+08:00","text":"還是要先圈起來，好不好！對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:42:58.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:02.865000+08:00","text":"我覺得我的猜測應該沒有問題，我也不敢叫你回答Yes或No。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:03.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:03.326000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:03.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:07.888000+08:00","text":"因為這跟114年那個部分是沒有關係的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:09.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:10.389000+08:00","text":"將來你看就知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:12.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:25.582000+08:00","text":"另外，中東歐的融資基金這一塊是在2022年1月，是在前主委龔明鑫的任內，我查了預算書，以這個規模來講，就感覺這是它的子基金嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:25.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:29.010000+08:00","text":"也不算國發基金的子基金啊！不算。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:29.010000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:30.010000+08:00","text":"不算嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:29.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:40.318000+08:00","text":"因為我沒有看到這在預算上面的編列，但是行政費用及政府擔保責任所需的資金又已經支出了支應準備金3,424萬。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:44.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:43:49.111000+08:00","text":"在預算書沒有看到，但是又有看到支出準備金，這是指什麼支出？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:43:49.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:00.321000+08:00","text":"因為這是我們委外的一個標案，這個部分目前是讓台杉負責這個基金的……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:00.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:02.623000+08:00","text":"可是台杉是投資而不是融資。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:04.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:11.418000+08:00","text":"融資基金是輸銀，就是經營是由輸出入銀行負責。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:11.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:13.900000+08:00","text":"放在輸出入銀行的話，是國庫嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:13.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:14.220000+08:00","text":"不算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:18.402000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在是把錢放到輸出入銀行，它也不算國庫啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:23.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:29.509000+08:00","text":"就是因為在預算書看不太到這樣的支出跟費用，所以我是覺得你們……為什麼我會這樣講？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:31.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:44:45.569000+08:00","text":"因為在主計總處主管的預算法第九條有規定：因擔保、保證或契約可能造成未來會計年度內之支出者，應於預算書中列表說明，而且對國庫有重大影響者，要向立法院報告。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:44:48.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:17.303000+08:00","text":"針對這些加保證的資金部分，包含現在擴大到10倍至12倍等等，這些在未來可能因為違約風險而產生的費用支出，我覺得要根據主計總處主管的預算法第九條從實編列，因為這個科目算或有負債，或有負債，沒關係，我知道這對你太困難，你沒辦法立刻回答，請你交一個書面報告給我。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:45:17.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:22.170000+08:00","text":"因為根據主計總處主管的預算法，我們就按照法條這樣子來處理，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-30T10:45:22.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:25.235000+08:00","text":"因為我在預算書找不到，OK？謝謝。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:45:25.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:25.796000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:45:25.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:29.842000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝洪毓祥委員，主委先請回座。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-04-30T10:45:30.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-30T10:45:33.484857+08:00","text":"下一位質詢請鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}