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承蒙大院支持完成《審計部組織法》《審計人員運用條例修法》強化審計機關組織結構與禁用多元審計人才相關策進作為及成果包括"},{"start":1943.078,"end":1964.763,"text":"落實監督方面積極辦理各項財務收支出調查嚴密監督預算之執行並審慎積查財務維持行為端正財務注細令推動數位轉型及智能審計成立諸信處及第六廳掌理數位及科技發展審計事項進六年"},{"start":1968.988,"end":1983.152,"text":"政府各機關依據審計機關的審核意見執行改善設施或節省的支出或增加的收入達1193億元令稽查發現各機關人員設有財務上重大違修行為或機關不負責答覆或答覆不當經"},{"start":1995.711,"end":2017.523,"text":"報請監察案處理 移送司法機關遵辦及通知各機關查明處分組共計643案二 強化洞察方面 考核各機關施政績效敦促完備制度規章 並審慎考核公共社書效能原體建議意見 增進公共利益"},{"start":2018.928,"end":2030.621,"text":"近六年度 考核各機關施政績效發現受有未進職者或效能過低等案件經報酬監察案處理或提供刑事主權參考者 計有583案"},{"start":2034.945,"end":2057.703,"text":"發現制度規章缺失或設施不良提出建議改善意見共計1398項認為有可能提升效能或增進公共利益提出建議意見共計3892項三 邁向前瞻方面便是影響各機關施政或營業效能潛在風險事實疫情"},{"start":2060.498,"end":2077.71,"text":"促請入署風險管理並導入外部專業觀點提升損失意見客觀性與公信力近6年度提出疫情性意見共計903項令導入關鍵損失議題發展機制及成立關鍵損失議題發展委員會進行系統性的查核113年及114年度關鍵損失議題涵蓋氣候變遷調適"},{"start":2090.678,"end":2104.45,"text":"改善所得分配、打擊詐欺、能源轉型等跨域的議題顯示損失機關相關的查核機制已作為已能契合國家長期發展趨勢"},{"start":2108.365,"end":2134.61,"text":"四 強化審核報告方面陸續完成總結算營業非營業的分測編報審核報告清晰對應重要審核意見的揭露二 以電子檔的形式編報各類結算審定表 互表達成表件無主化三 增編重要施政議題的查核專章計78篇供各界審慎重要施政項目的執行成效"},{"start":2135.41,"end":2152.592,"text":"四 建制总结算损失报告查询平台截至114年7月抵止已累计浏览22万7千亿次有效提升损失资讯的可进性促进政府输出特名"},{"start":2154.093,"end":2177.009,"text":"5導入新興科技方面加強導入新興工具方法以審計作業實務並開發數位審計模組辦理人員培訓加以推廣擴散109年至114年7月應用大數據分析技術與AI輔助查核案件或助量化財務效益共計159億元並發現多起政府採購廠商設備案件"},{"start":2182.83,"end":2203.158,"text":"令審計人員應用生存式AI輔助查核及發掘採購異常事證相關成果後天下雜誌報導肯定並受邀與行政機關及產業界進行交流六 強化行政合作方面"},{"start":2203.618,"end":2229.699,"text":"自110年度起推動行政機關優良案例推廣推廣擴散制度由各損棄單位發掘各機關的優良失誤計107案推廣至其他機關參考發揮損棄機關正面影響力並深化損棄機關與廉政政鋒組織單位的合作共同把關政府財務助勢過去六年"},{"start":2231.033,"end":2248.202,"text":"率審計部全體同仁 努力推動審計業務的革新與精進 互助具體績效今年8月 奉總統提名諸請大憲同意續任審計長一職堂後大憲同意當秉持審計機關獨立 廉政 專業創新的核心價值"},{"start":2254.204,"end":2262.338,"text":"先以智慧神跡 勇氣神跡 韌性神跡及共尊善智四大面相 更智"},{"start":2264.381,"end":2285.558,"text":"強化審計族群的行使 擴大發揮審計機關對於促進政府良善治理的價值在智慧審計方面以擴展資訊科技及人工智慧的應用審計部為應全球數位發展及政府數位轉型透過數位審計人才的培育開發數位審計模組強化"},{"start":2290.101,"end":2311.73,"text":"機敏資料的保護等措施 持續發展政府數位審計業務審計部將以過去數位審計發展的成果為基礎加強整合程式AI 大數據分析機器人流程主動化 雲端服務等資訊技術與審計業務建構數位化的審計環境 培養兼具"},{"start":2315.852,"end":2334.183,"text":"資訊分析與審計洞察力的專業審計人員打造高效能的諸會審計作業模式在永續方面 以導致國際實務強化永續發展目標之審計審計部歷年來藉盡先進國家的審計實務檢視政府推動國家永續發展的情形審慎篩選攸關國家永續發展及社會公益的重要資政與"},{"start":2344.989,"end":2368.608,"text":"审核报告专章揭露并自113年入期定期发布政府推动国家永续发展情形的审计报告鉴于国际最高审计机关组织倡导审计机关在追踪复合永续发展议程的角色审计部当前面审视政府永续发展政策的执行情形以不理"},{"start":2370.049,"end":2386.487,"text":"遺漏任何人的精神 確保國家永續發展政策得以落實三在任性審計方面 以前瞻的觀點政府任性治理的查核 審計部參考行政院核定國家發展計畫及"},{"start":2390.098,"end":2406.332,"text":"世界經濟論壇聯合國全球風險報告規劃辦理相關查核工作未來當除夕加強查核行政機關推動產業民生資通安全國土防衛等面向的潤性措施強化"},{"start":2406.912,"end":2413.639,"text":"公部門助理的任性與調適能力檢討優化關鍵損棄議題的發展機制以國家整體觀點協助行政部門辨識潛在施政風險與挑戰展現損棄機關促進國家長遠發展之積極功能"},{"start":2424.489,"end":2448.427,"text":"四 在共治善治方面與損棄行動協力共促政府善治之願景自107年上至以來不僅要求損棄機關查核公共資源應用的合法性與效益性皆同前提損棄同仁從善意把關 觸發協助行政機關提升治理效能未來當更新強化損核報告"},{"start":2449.946,"end":2476.873,"text":"及政府的資訊透明度並暢通政府與公民多元溝通管道令擴大發展與推廣行政機關優良實務透過正向的經驗分享與溝通與勾結攜手努力實現政府一體共振善治美好運行以上報告請請主席 各位委員 女士 先生 主持 主教 謝謝"},{"start":2482.318,"end":2499.228,"text":"謝謝 被提名人陳審計長報告我們現在開始進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間為20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如果不在場我們視為棄權首先我們請洪孟凱委員詢問陳昭之委員請準備"},{"start":2523.183,"end":2552.512,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳審計長被提名人麻煩被提名人陳審議長馮委員好好審計長及被提名人你好六年前也是在這個場合受到蔡英文前總統的提名那請教再一次被提名會不會感覺到意外應該是有點意外有點意外怎麼說"},{"start":2554.987,"end":2572.634,"text":"年紀已大但是國家需要你的時候還是要義不容辭是不是這個因為在審計部可以為國家為人民做一點事為國家為人民立法部門如此行政部門審計部門也應當如此所以我們看到過去"},{"start":2574.053,"end":2603.127,"text":"不管說我們審計部公佈中央政府總預算的審核報告也揭露不少的預算缺失包括說兩兆多元的前瞻預算特別預算以及施政不力但還被監察院院長在會議之中質詢質問說不應該引起外界的解讀落差那審計長我們想請教再一次被告知說被提名為新任審計長的時候有沒有特別交代你什麼"},{"start":2604.025,"end":2633.164,"text":"沒有所以你保證可以堅守審計權為數字說話當然把官預算跟國人一起捍衛對好那國會會力挺審計權因為我們要追討的是浪花濫用的預算預算當用則用當審則審該用的我們國會不會惡意的來去做阻撓但是如果說不當用的或是浪花的也一定要追討回來您同意嗎"},{"start":2633.732,"end":2662.415,"text":"同意好 沈議長請教在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面有交易憑證不正確甚至有不法金額超過六千萬元經濟我們監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴三個人農業部不管是部長 市長 司長 科長 董事長全部都牽結不起訴你認為合理嗎"},{"start":2663.991,"end":2682.8,"text":"這是國家的體制因為我審計部發現的問題有違法施職依照審計法我送檢調如果有施職或者效能不彰我送監察院監察院檢調這一次有起訴我尊重司法的"},{"start":2684.901,"end":2705.97,"text":"我們可不可以請教一下當初超私雞蛋爭議的時候審計部的資料告訴我們說是損失至少有這個6000萬元不法金額而損失納稅人的錢是超過5億以上而這5億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嗎"},{"start":2708.106,"end":2720.847,"text":"對比這樣子不管是不法金額六千萬或者是我們損失五億以上就到最後只有下面的同仁來做負責上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責你覺得以實務經驗來講這樣合理嗎"},{"start":2723.025,"end":2742.646,"text":"這個因為是書法的偵查權我們尊重書法偵查權那損失的預算該誰負責損失我們移送給監察院監察院糾正了農業部並彈劾了他的主辦書的書長還有他的相關同仁城市長有沒有看到最近的一個新聞"},{"start":2744.589,"end":2757.403,"text":"這個清潔隊台北市清潔隊員回收價值32塊的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女就會依貪污治罪條例法定5年以上有期徒刑來去被起訴"},{"start":2758.493,"end":2775.969,"text":"那結果這一個超私雞蛋全國那麼大關注審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了是不法金額有六千萬五億以上的一個損失結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴癥結而不是用貪污自罪條例會不會覺得雙重標準非常諷刺因為"},{"start":2777.692,"end":2795.787,"text":"他啟示的人員大概就是廠商還有細產會的人所以官員沒有任何的責任從上到下我相信連審計部門、法務部門所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦"},{"start":2797.059,"end":2805.968,"text":"我不客氣的講那是國難結果有人在這仇中發國難財結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責沈記長"},{"start":2810.117,"end":2834.176,"text":"這一個因為是國家有國家的體制因為我們的審計法是發現不法或者發現效能不彰或者發現失足我們都審計法所以您覺得這次這樣的起訴你可以接受嗎以我們這樣子審計資料提出來的你可以接受因為我尊重這個是國家的體制我要尊重"},{"start":2835.25,"end":2859.702,"text":"你不能只是尊重啊沈議長因為我已經做我的第一關我們希望他一種名義就講了如果說有任何的預算被濫用了那我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法讓該負責任的應該負責因為是這樣因為我們有三這一個部分我們發現了剛剛委員有講單計好像和企業規定不合我們已經刪減他兩億七千多萬這兩億七千多萬除了減掉"},{"start":2864.744,"end":2884.281,"text":"查出來 檢查剛剛委員講的六千多萬有問題一萬我們這些還是要兩億多我們還是要看他的單據是不是符合法規規定這是我們損記的主軸我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打"},{"start":2885.951,"end":2904.008,"text":"蒼蠅不敢打老虎只敢對清潔隊員32塊電鍋就用貪污治罪條例結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情卻是高高舉起輕輕放下好 提名的人你既然有提到是說這有可能減掉的部分那另外我再請教就業安定基金"},{"start":2905.359,"end":2930.362,"text":"剪掉相對來講比較沒有直接的關係因為審計部分有特別點出來就業安定基金決算裡面用途關聯性不高應該予以收回有高達7224萬對吧對好那這個7224萬但是沒想到勞動部居然講是說他要用人民納稅前編列公務預算來回補這就業安定基金沈議長你可以同意嗎"},{"start":2931.687,"end":2957.616,"text":"這個因為我們的關聯性不高勞動部要逐項查明如果因為其中也有送檢調的我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會能不能去拍影片做大內宣能不能去裝潢辦公室這個他勞動部要逐項查明逐項查明以後他會報如果"},{"start":2958.516,"end":2976.073,"text":"他是公務用途他會報行政院行政院會要不要給他編列預算這個由行政院決定大院會不會通過這個由大院決定那至於他要我們希望他基金和公務要把他劃分清楚"},{"start":2977.694,"end":2997.912,"text":"市長你們是把關預算執行的單位那既然預算被這樣濫用了這樣的一個預算其實用途完全不符合我們也看到這樣的狀況了不管是開演唱會不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃一支影片變成五支然後分散來去做核銷那麼請教7224萬"},{"start":3002.937,"end":3014.705,"text":"這個應該是跟這個執行者就是所謂的這些部長 司長來去做追查還是要由公務預算來買單這個我們第一個要先追查他那些有沒有私用"},{"start":3015.624,"end":3039.782,"text":"就已經使用了嘛 所以你們點出來這不符合阿這個 剪掉等一下我現在 因為你是被提名人我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們在信任六年把審計權交給你所以我們才想問的是說如果說遇到這樣的狀況到底是要行政部門去編列預算用人民納稅錢來回補還是應該由始作俑者來負起這個責任就這麼簡單"},{"start":3042.284,"end":3056.8,"text":"這個是一個要因為這個是受及司法的問題所以我們移送檢調受及效能不彰的問題或者你濫用或者怎麼樣那我們已經移送檢查案檢查案"},{"start":3058.612,"end":3081.26,"text":"糾正了 彈劾了既然糾正 既然彈劾 是不是代表說那一個濫用預算的人有責任那是不是應該由他來回歸回補給國家預算而不是用國家人民的納稅預算再去補那個基金所以我們勞動部查明他要審慎的來查明這個相關的省局長 現在就是官官相護嘛"},{"start":3081.9,"end":3099.857,"text":"因為我們還會看到官官相護我們就是看到這個總共人民才會沒有辦法接受所以才期待一個獨立廉政專業創新的沈記長能夠點出問題我們還是會看這個收回的情形所以一句話你認為是公務預算補可以還是認為應該要跟"},{"start":3104.263,"end":3129.568,"text":"這個要根據用途事實查明的結果來處理你們的檢調報告 審計報告都出來了他裝修辦公室可能是公務用途公務用途他應該是用裝修漂漂亮亮的辦公室放盆栽或放景觀本來可能 來 沈記長您的辦公室裝修都多少錢我到現在要離開了"},{"start":3132.657,"end":3156.899,"text":"都沒裝修非常好本席在這一件因為我是續任所以我也沒有用我們辦公室裝修費用但是他用了一百多萬裝修一個辦公室合理嗎我們說他這是公務用途嗎我們給他送公務用途嗎我租出有點胡亂我們請有點而已嗎我們已經請送請監察院調查沈議長是"},{"start":3161.588,"end":3189.095,"text":"專業獨立不要閃閃躲躲這是大家對你的期待不閃躲再來請教那個影片拍影片說金額宣傳金額用就業安定基金來做宣傳推廣金額一直增加變成現在三年合計八億元都在做這個就業安定基金拿來拍影片這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題我們就想問尤其這裡面最貓膩的事情他是使用開口合約"},{"start":3191.796,"end":3209.541,"text":"開口合約相對來講比較緊急的狀況譬如說有可能預期的天災搶休嘛我就明白的請您告訴國人也宣示一下未來各部會機關能夠用基金預算來做開口合約做文宣媒體通路採購嗎"},{"start":3210.762,"end":3211.163,"text":"這一個我們要看"},{"start":3228.985,"end":3232.227,"text":"還要看看什麼要看這個整個採購性質是怎麼樣一般上這一種的應該不必用開口碟應該用搶修搶險當時設計是說災難來了"},{"start":3243.566,"end":3268.734,"text":"趕快 就用開口合約趕快找人把他搶休搶閒是 這個大家都知道所以他們現在濫用開口合約這樣的一個制度所以 本席剛剛的問題再次請教 沈機長我們發現了這個問題未來各部會各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購我們會注意這個問題什麼叫你們會注意 能不能啦這個因為是有"},{"start":3271.641,"end":3285.844,"text":"因為這個主管機關是這個採購的主管機關是工程會我在我審計部的立場只能說我會注意他是不是能這樣那你會注意他能不能這樣不能嘛"},{"start":3287.156,"end":3306.733,"text":"原則上因為這個我每個華都有主管機關我不能超越這個機關你們都不行我這要做客觀公正的提名人預算都是人民的納稅錢你今天身為審計把關的單位一句能與不能"},{"start":3307.708,"end":3329.664,"text":"我其實 你講出來 不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳而是你講出來之後 未來各行政機關就是一個宣示這不分藍綠 不分黨派 不分朝野應該是說過去有人有這樣濫用這個機構我們就要告訴他 不能用了原則上沒有特別的理由 我尊重委員的意見是嘛 不行嘛獨立 廉政 專業 創新對"},{"start":3332.574,"end":3359.694,"text":"不要逼本席再一次強調要變成是刻在這應該照理講 刻在你心裡的這個都貼在我們所有的牆壁上所以說不要讓本席失望你的詢答讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你六年法定義務支出我們剛剛都一直強調是說多給的要收回 對不對那一樣"},{"start":3360.938,"end":3384.16,"text":"應該要給的是不是應該要給法律上要給的就要給非常好法定義務支出一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出一般性補助款在它歸類的時候不管是4至391號4至520號解釋相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出是吧"},{"start":3384.761,"end":3412.026,"text":"主計總署也好 審計部也好都有這樣子在總預算裡面明白規定總預算案的表件裡面它是列法定義務支出法定義務支出法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費即使行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以縮減或是刪除支出 是吧"},{"start":3415.031,"end":3439.486,"text":"因為他還要思考啊 還要辯解啊 沈記長對啦 這個是因為大安已經追加預算把這個問題解決了這不是解不解決問題 我現在問你的是實質的狀況你是沈記長 你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看本席現在是想請教 一般性補助款是法定義務支出"},{"start":3440.643,"end":3468.537,"text":"那是歸類在法定一出剛剛委員也很認真的看到了大老關的事件如果確定法律一律出出我們應該是中央今天可以說我高興我就把你給拿回來我今天不高興我就不要編中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一然後把責任怪東怪西怪南怪北就是不檢討自己可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":3470.113,"end":3490.742,"text":"這個因為是在大院有給他一個636億的...立法院可以刪除一般性補助款立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎歷年來是沒有做過立法院沒有權利刪除法定義務支出憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後然後推給立法院這是邏輯問題啊"},{"start":3492.25,"end":3517.101,"text":"沈記長這個是應該照預算的編制或者預算的審議應該要照法定義務支出來支出要照法例的規定來執行法定的規定來執行那就是議詞的是法定義務支出不能去刪減另外您剛提到依照法令規定來執行"},{"start":3519.649,"end":3533.516,"text":"軍人待遇條例警察人士條例也在立法院正式三讀通過並且總統已經公告行政院沒有附議那依法行政是不是應該編列預算"},{"start":3536.899,"end":3552.319,"text":"這個法例通過了不要忘記喔 您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法例來執選現在法例怎麼規定但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該他有他的安排什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算叫因為他預算的編制權法有相關的執行"},{"start":3554.381,"end":3576.682,"text":"施行日期公告了 總統已經公告了在立法院 在行政院 一算的編制權在立行政院 這個是憲法的規定他有權利在行政院 但是依法啊他的權利也是法律給他的權利啊所以他是不是應該要依法行政所以他要把所有的條件 相關的法律條件啊 走完"},{"start":3578.008,"end":3602.062,"text":"他要把相關條件走完 什麼意思就是現在在釋憲 要請釋憲結束之後他才要編釋憲 或者是說 要呼籲這一個不乃是說 還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大案的決議還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院的三讀通過法令並且總統公告沒有呼籲的決議"},{"start":3603.387,"end":3631.837,"text":"好 那現在他沒有尊重 他沒有編列完了 他是編住的時機這是違法編住的時機沒有 他現在行政部門就直接講了我們支持中華民國的國軍我們支持警察消防所有人員的辛苦所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人士條例明年的中央政府總預算送進來一樣超過三兆元但是沒有把這個編列進去"},{"start":3633.177,"end":3641.419,"text":"行政部門講什麼講說現在還要釋憲如果釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算那我才請教沈記長預算要怎麼追加"},{"start":3643.166,"end":3668.602,"text":"因為預算還送來 大胭還沒有開始審議所以大胭審議的時候因為預算的審議前我們可不可以依法 論法 就法就是因為這樣子所以說你不要忘記你剛講的應該要依法行政所以大胭在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政 是吧"},{"start":3670,"end":3695.47,"text":"這個因為剛剛委員有講到他們可能有一點還在整個行政部門還在整個盤算盤算還可以怎麼盤算這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題所有事情都不依法行政都在盤算都在算計都在想的是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題您可以同意嗎"},{"start":3697.455,"end":3711.953,"text":"這一個我去評論 不同意因為我是審計的 是事後審計的是 就是因為你是審計就是因為我剛剛一直強調你要獨立 廉政 專業 創新所以本席才會依法 論法 就法請教您"},{"start":3712.734,"end":3740.639,"text":"因為你是被提名人所以本席尊重你本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政當人民給你權利要你做獨立廉政專業創新的時候你能不能不懼老虎講出真話而不是現在還要看風向台灣已經被政治耽誤太久了我們要的是依法行政所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責這整個的流程"},{"start":3761.377,"end":3786.894,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的詢問謝謝陳審計長陳審計長請喝口水吧您的水杯你喝完水我們就開始下面一位委員要詢問了"},{"start":3792.847,"end":3818.747,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳昭之委員詢問郭國文委請準備謝謝主席有請提名人麻煩再請被提名陳省長陳委員好"},{"start":3820.672,"end":3848.409,"text":"提名人好 我一下就稱呼您 沈記長沈記的職權包括監督機關的預算的執行還有稽查機關人員他們對於財務財政方面是不是有不法或不忠於職務這個行為相對的就是機關的部分當他面對審計人員在執行他的職權的時候他必須詳實回答或提供資料不得隱匿是這樣嗎"},{"start":3851.411,"end":3879.186,"text":"那如果發現機關人員他有不法或不忠於這個他的職務的部分那是不是要報請監察院依法處理那如果涉及刑事責任還要依法送辦對 因為不法就警察委員所談的是對的那麼我在審計部的審計報告當中發現跟台電相關的這個篇幅不少但我必須說很多不法的事情審計部是摸到了邊"},{"start":3880.367,"end":3901.064,"text":"有待深入很多不法的情勢是如此我的意思是說有摸到邊但沒有深入更多不法的情勢台電是很會隱匿的審計部毫無直覺稍後我會跟審計長說明這個部分我們先回到簡報上你看審計報告的截圖報告上面說環團認為台電隱匿了協和電廠突然超標的問題"},{"start":3909.531,"end":3936.223,"text":"那審計部卻只認為台電未來有框起來的地方對廠區污染 土壤污染的情形負有揭露及處理責任審計長 我想要請問你各個行政機關還有國營事業既然是有心想引力你覺得他還會主動他會願意要負起揭露跟處理的責任嗎我們是有通知台電要他改善"},{"start":3937.632,"end":3945.04,"text":"但是也有通知環境部要他處理但是沒有處理的話有逐年上升的現象"},{"start":3946.238,"end":3967.164,"text":"我們還在追查還有更多 沈機長在環評會上台電提供的資料隱匿了協和電廠有土壤污染的嚴重情形但是在多方努力之下在環境部跟基隆市市政府的環保局一同進場查證了好幾個月"},{"start":3970.705,"end":3994.117,"text":"確認 這個是報告書長質土壤污染超過管制標準將被公告為所謂的污染的長質台電終於必須承認必須正式並且整治改善污染狀況這是台電本來就該做的事情但是它內部卻長期一再的隱匿一直到今年這個問題才被正式挖掘 攤開來"},{"start":3996.498,"end":4022.983,"text":"請問沈記長你要不要報請這個監察院依法處理呢這一個我們如果這種現象我們馬上查不是如果啊 有報告啊對 那我們會馬上查核馬上移送 如果有這個事實怎麼馬上 你看到這個報告之後沒有做嗎我們一線作案 這是我們以前今天回去就做了是不是移送監察院好 我們移送監察院這一個如果切事實我們就移送監察院"},{"start":4025.584,"end":4042.736,"text":"今天回去就做了9月9號 沈機長台電發生興達電廠天然氣外洩爆炸氣候案件台電對外說明他說是因為天然氣管線的法蘭街頭磨損造成外洩但是根據前幾天的媒體報導台電內部有吹哨者"},{"start":4043.456,"end":4060.403,"text":"像媒體檢舉說有許多劣質的中國製的法蘭賣到台灣流入中油跟台電恐怕跟這次興達電廠的爆炸事故是有關請問沈記長您開始做調查了嗎已經交代我的同仁去做了"},{"start":4060.703,"end":4075.194,"text":"這件事已經開始調查了因為我們以前也查過很多偽造進口證明或者是用來源不明的貨品我們查過有八、九十件所以我們現在這個我們有經驗"},{"start":4076.455,"end":4092.031,"text":"所以吹哨者很重要吹哨者保護法也非常重要我必須報告沈記長台電的各種更新改建機組工程還有煤炭工程在材料的使用上有很大的問題我質詢過很多次興達電廠只是冰山一角"},{"start":4093.032,"end":4121.454,"text":"有更多的弊端等著審計部去挖掘去年9月台灣民眾黨在立法院召開了一場記者會我們揭發了台電大林電廠他的運煤系統改建工程當中大量使用不合格不符合勞動部這個職安署TS標章認證的防爆管配件這一頁我先請您看一下這個就是台電採購的合約書當中框起來的那一段就是上面寫著這個"},{"start":4123.878,"end":4126.267,"text":"管配件的材質必須是可鍛鑄鐵"},{"start":4128.294,"end":4155.064,"text":"或是鍍鋅鋼但是因為沈機長可斷鑄鐵因為在國際上沒有在生產了可能是環保的因素那台電後來也開會就要求說要使用強度更好的一個叫做球末鑄鐵的材質我想這是對的就是你要的東西是缺貨但是你不能往下把標準降下來尤其這個是防爆管的配件所以事實上要使用球末鑄鐵但結果沈機長你請看"},{"start":4157.825,"end":4179.324,"text":"8月6號 治安署到台大大林電廠抽測檢查的結果發現兩大問題第一個問題是台電的大林電廠他現場裝設了申方 蒙利還有正方三家公司的防爆管的配件都出現材質不合格的狀況你看印章對不對 不合格不合格不合格 你看到不合格"},{"start":4181.31,"end":4198.529,"text":"這張表我給經濟部前部長郭部長看過他無動於衷這個製造廠商名稱都是台電提供給職安署了已經過了一年多這是去年8月6號職安署百般的坦戶到今天沒有開罰"},{"start":4200.511,"end":4221.949,"text":"審計部對於治安署編列的預算他在執行這個防爆器管配件的認證業務但卻沒有辦法確保這個產品是有品質的一致性而且也沒有依法開罰各種堵直行為請問審計部你要不要查送檢查後調查後送檢察院跟移送法班"},{"start":4223.255,"end":4243.726,"text":"這個組安署啊 既然去查了不合格我們有看到我們會依照委員的那個我們會去整個調查調查完如果有委員所講的這些問題我們移送這個是去年我們就開了記者會了這個資料非常清楚我們會移送那個監察案來調查"},{"start":4245.782,"end":4271.538,"text":"那這次的這個抽驗當中還有第二個問題政客公司代理的國際大廠叫Appleton這個叫原型接線盒原型接線盒他有驗出這個同一家公司驗出合格跟不合格的這個兩種結果我在這裡要強調不合格的原型接線盒這個是由政客公司提供這個事情不是我的解讀而是台電說的台電說由這個"},{"start":4273.599,"end":4294.369,"text":"這家公司他所提供的政客公司提供的Appleton的這個原型接線盒有不合格的跟有合格的那請這個陳記長繼續看因為同樣標示Appleton的廠牌原型接線盒那為什麼會有合格又有不合格兩種完全不同的結果呢"},{"start":4295.409,"end":4316.683,"text":"我的直覺是有仿冒品參雜其中所以我的辦公室就進一步去要求台電提供材料查驗申請單結果我發現什麼呢不合格的標記為Appleton的這個廠牌的原型接線口號台電事後承認"},{"start":4318.456,"end":4337.148,"text":"是這個承包商叫做現代樂田他的下包廠商叫做成鋼公司他沒有經過台電的器材檢驗自行從興達漁港工程的餘料剩餘的材料取用然後安裝到煤倉工程上"},{"start":4340.624,"end":4349.11,"text":"到目前為止問題還在這裡台電不只是讓這個不合格的仿製的防爆管配件他仍然裝設在場區"},{"start":4351.243,"end":4369.011,"text":"而且用盡各種方法拖延改善期限更離譜的喔更離譜的喔他在其他的工程例如這次興達電廠他的燃氣工程繼續採購繼續採購這個申芳跟萌玉這個有被檢查出不合格產品的這個廠商啊"},{"start":4370.137,"end":4381.12,"text":"沈記長對於如此妨害危害勞工安全的採購弊端你要不要追查要不要報請監察院依法處理"},{"start":4382.028,"end":4405.448,"text":"第一個我們以前在查台電這畫面的時候也發現他很多廠商用這種類似的來期待結果你怎麼做我們就移送檢查案叫他移送法辦有嗎有結果呢結果他們就相關的那些廠商就被禁止台電讓這個東西繼續放在廠職裡"},{"start":4408.43,"end":4431.835,"text":"這個我們會照委員的意思來處理因為台電很多都是外包廠商所以常常都會 外包廠商不是理由 該負責的就要負責台電就是要負責 我今天舉了很多例子這個當然他要管理好有報告 有資料他當然要做好管理"},{"start":4433.541,"end":4452.199,"text":"好 沈機長我還是要請教你就業安定基金拿去開演唱會 做春聯 紅包袋這個完全不符合他原來的目的的事情當然就被濫用了7224萬剛剛洪委員也提到這些亂花的錢洪部長竟然說要爭取公務預算歸電"},{"start":4453.94,"end":4481.328,"text":"意思就是要拿納稅人的錢來補回來全民買單但是勞動部明年的預算書沒有規定這筆錢所以我今天要向省紀長確認就業安定基金被濫用的部分你們有把它剔除嗎因為如果你剔除的話勞動部部長必須向當初亂花錢的人追討甚至強制執行我現在今天再跟您確認你有把它剔除嗎"},{"start":4482.233,"end":4504.284,"text":"我有把他修正檢列 他要列應收款回來你直接告訴我 你就是剔除嘛這個就是一個名詞跟一個做法嘛你有沒有剔除我有檢列 他要應收回來沈記長 你如果剔除根據審計法你就是要給他期限追繳啊請問這個期限是多久"},{"start":4504.904,"end":4526.727,"text":"我們要他逐項查明已經發生這麼久了我只問你期限多久我只問你期限多久我們一直在追蹤他改善的情形沒有期限喔做外事喔 做到任期結束為止喔那如果你沒有剔除你聽起來我好像沒有剔除喔有修正 有檢列"},{"start":4528.072,"end":4549.491,"text":"你那個檢列跟剔除 檢列是全額檢列嗎剔除是這樣 剔除是很明確這一個是因為舊服務法 舊業服務法他在這個放在舊業服務法 舊業服務法是勞動部的法我要尊重勞動部 勞動部已同意我把他檢列了他說他會直向查明 全額檢列嗎陳記長我覺得這個有點護航耶 這護航勞動部耶不會護航他 不會護航他"},{"start":4552.892,"end":4567.945,"text":"所以結果反正不能讓全民買單嘛對不對他預算書也不敢嘛但是這個錢就要追回來啊他如果委員會自己私用當然我們會如果他沒有追回來我們還是會移送檢查案調查"},{"start":4570.154,"end":4597.156,"text":"沈記長 請問美濃大峽谷市你有在關注嗎美濃大峽谷大峽谷有看到內政部國管署 國土管理署每年編列了五六千萬去運作所謂國土利用的監測整合資訊網它是透過衛星去判讀是不是有因為稻採砂石或是青島廢棄物造成國土有變異的地方這應該是一個科技執法非常有幫助的工具 對嗎對"},{"start":4599.238,"end":4616.073,"text":"那我請問沈機長現在地方政府問題在哪裡呢地方政府取得這個國土變異點資訊之後好戲的執法有很大的問題那為什麼會這樣說沈機長前幾天我和環保團體一起開會國土署出席的同仁"},{"start":4617.295,"end":4630.715,"text":"當天他們說這個系統當這個系統發現國土有變異點他們就把相關資料交給地方政府主管機關去執行例如美濃大峽谷這個案子是2024年初"},{"start":4633.058,"end":4651.615,"text":"一年半前了國土組發現有國土變異的時候就把這些相關資訊給高雄市環保局去執行但事實上卻是今年九月要不是有民意代表去勘查那這件事不會被發掘出來不會被攤出來大家都不會知道所以等於說一整年多從去年到今年"},{"start":4652.656,"end":4654.198,"text":"這個我有請他們去了解的"},{"start":4681.539,"end":4695.917,"text":"有嗎 已經有了嗎 有有進度了嗎這個已經 最近的新聞嘛 他們已經在因為我們一個調查案子啊 都會規劃會整理 會相關的再出動"},{"start":4697.789,"end":4719.966,"text":"審計長你今天答應了我很多事而且這都是你的職責嘛審計部的職責嘛影響國家的財產安全我們都有責任接下來我請教你這個少子化問題這是113年審計部的決算審核報告為了提供優質的生養環境減輕家長負擔政府推出0到2歲社區公共托育計畫但是卻被國發會評為"},{"start":4722.108,"end":4731.677,"text":"高風險紅燈預警計畫為什麼呢因為實現率太差了113年度第三期跟第四期的實現率只有19.28%以及37.23%"},{"start":4737.813,"end":4759.134,"text":"本來預計要522處公共托育設施結果完成400多所但是還有35個鄉鎮市區沒有完全沒有托育機構的規劃實在是慘不忍睹我想請教沈記長上個月8月出生台灣出生的出生跟死亡人口數你有概念嗎"},{"start":4760.522,"end":4767.97,"text":"大概多少一個是書生8464一個是15226這種人口負成長已經連續20多個月了這麼嚴重的國安危機但是對少子化的預算執行率這麼低"},{"start":4779.707,"end":4796.387,"text":"我們根本覺得政府沒有心要解決這個少子化的問題難怪人民無感沒有生育動力沈記長 執行預算這麼低沈記長 有意願但沒有生育大概有兩種狀況想生但養不起"},{"start":4797.168,"end":4813.989,"text":"這是一種一種是想生養得起但有生育上的困難那第一種當然靠國家的政策很多幫忙剛剛我們講脫育政策啦或是一些補助來處理但是第二種的話就必須訴諸醫療了想生養得起但他有困難生育那就是要這個"},{"start":4815.39,"end":4839.395,"text":"利用人工生殖技術來幫助建立他們這個期待的家庭但是沈記長有很多人一直在等待因為衛福部長期行政怠惰讓很多需求的人困在年久未休年久失休的人工生殖法裡面請問沈記長你還記得你來拜訪的時候你有跟我我們談及這個代孕的這件事情嗎你記得嗎"},{"start":4845.803,"end":4860.952,"text":"台湾社会台湾代理育母政策已经超过30年了我记得你先前来拜会的时候是有正向表达支持但今天我还是要跟沈记长确认两件事第一个您是否支持代孕解禁让代孕法治化"},{"start":4861.852,"end":4871.835,"text":"我們少子化是很嚴重所以多元的生小孩包括政府現在花幾萬塊我會把這個整個做一個了解為什麼衛福部把這個案子勾這麼久"},{"start":4879.715,"end":4896.81,"text":"就制度設計因為您當天告訴我是您基本上是支持的那您是否認同應該有相當的明確的限制跟配套當然包括採非營利禁止中間抽成限定使用對象完善身心等評估還有醫療保障孩子的權益等等這些配套"},{"start":4898.311,"end":4919.837,"text":"去年台大醫院政治中心陳美洲主任有講代理一部不應該脫鉤條文已經討論多年要一次解決這個重點是在哪裡焦點不該是贊成或反對而是如何訂定完善的管理配套跟契約規範陳記長行政怠惰的時候他該有的職責的時候"},{"start":4921.877,"end":4948.905,"text":"也是你的責任請問貝蒂明人就是說如果待運立法通過從審計機關的角度你認為在政府的財務支出跟行政監督上要優先注意哪些風險我想藉助你的專業在我們立法的時候這個會期我們會當作優先法案來處理因為做這些事有相當的一些影響那些財務支出跟行政監督"},{"start":4950.226,"end":4958.22,"text":"處理掉我們會對這個案子去查衛福部他做到什麼程度為什麼處處沒有提出"},{"start":4959.122,"end":4985.201,"text":"國安問題少子化這麼嚴重人工生殖法放了十幾年沒有實質的修改行政怠惰也是審計部可以了解的事情啊對 對 對沈記長 我再請問你在野黨有聯署要廢除監察院這是民進黨在野時長期的主張連賴清德總統也說過那如今民進黨也說他們奉陪到底廢除這個監察院那我想請問這個沈記長如果"},{"start":4988.559,"end":5003.972,"text":"監察院被廢除你認為審計權要由誰來行使是要將審計權歸到立法院呢還是另設一個獨立機關我想聽聽您的意見這個國際最高審計機關或者世界各國大部分都獨立行"},{"start":5005.819,"end":5028.777,"text":"有在國會也有但是少數美國就是在國會但是像日本新加坡韓國那個華國通通在都獨立出來所以沈記長已經有思考過這個問題了也了解好謝謝陳昭志委員謝謝沈記長謝謝"},{"start":5049.175,"end":5072.85,"text":"好 接下來我們請郭國文委員詢問賴思寶委員請準備主席有請沈機長麻煩再請被提名人沈機長郭委員好沈機長恭喜"},{"start":5074.412,"end":5099.47,"text":"過去六年來 我知道我們審計部其實在秉持三大功能落實監督 強化洞察 邁向潛戰接下來這六年要朝向智慧審計永續審計 韌性審計跟共振善治這四大面向來完成可是當我們又有新的一個面向要發展之前我們就回顧舊的這一個三大的目標功能有沒有達成"},{"start":5100.707,"end":5125.076,"text":"過去來說的話 基本上整個審計部有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告過去這兩年但是這兩年當中其實延續我過去在地方政府在參考你們地方的審計處的報告當中確實都羅列得非常清楚報告寫得洋洋灑灑但是都有一個習慣就是最後的結語都很溫和"},{"start":5126.638,"end":5134.828,"text":"结局是什么呢 建议改善结局是什么呢 就是通盘检讨感觉上都不痛不痒 隔穴骚痒"},{"start":5136.482,"end":5159.661,"text":"要說又不敢說 點到為止然後就有一種現象最近稍微有一點改變就是本席當初就要你做一個改善所得分配跟低薪的問題專報的時候你就有直指問題的核心譬如講你那時候就提到產算法的部分有關於這一個前提過於嚴格或者學費的補助的時候比較有感 應該持續推動"},{"start":5161.328,"end":5177.885,"text":"本席心目中的這個審計報告當中應該要直指核心根據問題如何解決而不是解釋問題所以說我是覺得你接下來要續任這六年的審計長我除了恭喜之外有更高的期待"},{"start":5178.746,"end":5196.433,"text":"你要如何改變這個文化這非常關鍵啦不要讓人家淪為這個官官相負啊你沈濟波所扮演的角色就是在做一個內部的監督嘛對不對 情長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化所以要求"},{"start":5198.477,"end":5219.796,"text":"會照委員會意見來做 像首都分配委員很關心我們13年來是查後來行政院就成立了經濟發展委員會他裡面把低薪的問題把一些房價的問題住宅的問題都放進去了那我們說現在住宅整個政府我們看觸及到差不多290萬戶"},{"start":5222.979,"end":5251.045,"text":"對啊 所以這個就政府都有在做沈院長你講的就沒有錯啦當你指出問題核心的時候行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛這凸顯你的角色重不重要凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要所以不要再寫那些空洞的隔靴搔癢的 什麼通盤減少什麼要有所改善現在我們都改了就會改 醫藥全部都改 你都改你只有部分改而已 你還改的不夠啦"},{"start":5251.685,"end":5269.11,"text":"更何況小組我們說你那個婚結婚很重要他叫我不立宅你只有那個部分改要繼續改對不對 側大改全面改 重量要跳出來啊你的角色很關鍵沈院長你的角色很關鍵你接下來還要幹6年"},{"start":5271.471,"end":5298.251,"text":"審計部還有什麼問題呢 我跟你講審計部還有輕輕放下 抓小放大我跟你說 你會想審計部啊發現問題之後啊 就送哪裡送監察院嘛 監察院做什麼監察院多數是對機關提出糾正比較少對人去進行懲處 你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡發放到各行政機關嘛"},{"start":5299.719,"end":5310.485,"text":"放放到原來選擇單位 他們不處理結果是如何 結果我就用結果讓你來做討論你就看113年 決算審計報告為例1 審計部呈報監察院的案件當中一共250件 結果一送檢調並糾正一件"},{"start":5326.769,"end":5340.66,"text":"另外要求你查明處分的113件你已經要求查明處分了各機關實際處分37件乘除124人而中間記大過了兩個記大過 兩個小過120個申屆高達95%好了 你要求的結果"},{"start":5356.086,"end":5384.239,"text":"就輕輕放下嘛 對不對你高高舉起嘛 輕輕放下你站在一個行政部門的檢察官類似的角色當中你要求要明文查處就是說呢 你求情量刑看求情都很重 但是量刑很低是不是你定罪利太低是不是你有問題 你有沒有思考過這樣的結果有沒有實質上達到什麼具體的改善的可能"},{"start":5385.339,"end":5411.374,"text":"我們和監察院合作是還蠻好的啦一些縱效我送給他的差不多25%有糾正差不多百分也有彈劾這個大概我和監察院的我有去注意到這個問題但是我們發現他有維碼失足我們也有直接送的喔我們送了兩千多件喔但是你要求他們那你以後就直接送就好啦"},{"start":5412.875,"end":5429.727,"text":"那你為什麼要繞一個圈讓他自行去處理我就說直接你自己也看到了從你決算審視報告當中你的比例上我再舉一個例子你112年的時候總決算的時候你提出619項的審計意見到了113年"},{"start":5434.812,"end":5447.199,"text":"總決算的時候這619件當中還有153件他通知他們再次改善怎麼會這樣怎麼會你要求他再處理的"},{"start":5449.04,"end":5469.971,"text":"還有四分之一不處理這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎就是代表你的權威性不足嘛對不對你要求的他根本沒有在多大的程度在重視你審計部的意見嘛那你審計部寫這麼多意見是做我們比賽嗎這樣啊 這刑事機關大部分會改但是有的要給他時間"},{"start":5471.435,"end":5488.732,"text":"所以我們也要看在行之淵有的是要立法有的要修改規則所以一連我們查到他修改規則的兩千多件我相信你有一些是需要修改相關的法制但是就這樣的結果你有沒有想過"},{"start":5489.926,"end":5518.865,"text":"如何去改變外在說你高高舉起輕輕放下的這一種常態性的這種狀況你有沒有想說你新任的這個未來的六年的這個省紀長的角色當中有沒有可能改善本席要問你的重點是這個這個我們會照委員的意思來改善好 要做 我看你要怎麼做另外一個部分還有一個部分就是變成是抓小放大跟基層在受罰"},{"start":5520.256,"end":5524.386,"text":"政治責任是誰做的為什麼最後繼承我講具體的意思啊"},{"start":5525.305,"end":5552.947,"text":"譬如講你從這個113年決算比較嚴重的財務上的為師移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看一共幾件 七件中央一件 就是警政署的採購案地方六件 三件文書登載不實涉案的有村長 縣府跟公所人員還有一件是大學的詐領案這不是抓小放大嗎"},{"start":5554.573,"end":5561.109,"text":"就是專門看起來都是小件事情啊你看還有一件雲林我國中荷霄不死都是三七成人員啊"},{"start":5562.503,"end":5587.662,"text":"因為金額都不高啊都是被你地方審計單位移送的啦你移送的就是這些啦我們大一半小一半不能二小我不為什麼大一半小一半所以我現在用數位審計啊那個微標我一查查到兩千多件啊那個刑事處啊那個沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊我講的這些"},{"start":5589.403,"end":5606.454,"text":"市長 你剛有講到小的沒有講到大的你未來的數位審計是未來啦我現在跟你談的是現實啊你寫的報告當中我幫你整理出來啦好 照我們會注意就只有抓小放大嘛不會放大我們對大的更會注意"},{"start":5610.416,"end":5638.054,"text":"好 更大會注意好我來看你怎麼注意好不好你說剛剛我現在不諱言我們就說救援基金在來黨一直追打救援基金我就談救援基金的事情就好先容的這個救援基金當中你們當初事情爆發之後你才發現1010 110年到113年有5000多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大對不對但是呢"},{"start":5639.396,"end":5645.111,"text":"100年到112年的決算審計報告當中你裡頭都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊"},{"start":5646.892,"end":5669.909,"text":"你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊你就注重這個計畫的執行面的審計而已啊才會導致後面問題越來越大條啊審計功能不彰的結果就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊這裡沒有責任嗎這個就是什麼 沈議長這是本席剛剛跟你討論的抓小放大的結果啦"},{"start":5671.184,"end":5680.867,"text":"怎麼改善 怎麼面對你用規則給人力了這是大小的問題啦不是人力的問題啦這是心態的問題啦你用AI就可以解決這些問題你用AI就可以查到這些問題你不要一直推給"},{"start":5698.351,"end":5726.73,"text":"未來的事情你要先面對過去的錯誤才能考慮到未來的解方這是面對過去的錯誤發現要這樣做這都具體的事情你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大好你剛剛講說什麼你的目標是大一半小一半是不是我們通抓通通大一半小一半只要有部分大小全部都抓我有財務紀律我們都等著看等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣好 那你就查一件你查一件給本席看好"},{"start":5728.359,"end":5738.045,"text":"我給你看一件本席 雷聲大雨點小審計部真的是作文比賽這個作文題目是什麼 台中大理垃圾山"},{"start":5742.921,"end":5764.195,"text":"34萬噸的垃圾它需要17年才可以清理完成7月份台中審計處的時候已經介入事業費不減反增清潔隊弊案連連你去發現問題 你要追查到底你就這個例子 你去查百億的大弊案焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億"},{"start":5768.854,"end":5790.99,"text":"你17年要花多少錢要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山你們也查到問題喔你們不是沒有查喔你有查到問題喔一 預算暴增50幾億審計部寫的二 清潔對難上百次偏離路線違法收運事業費器物"},{"start":5795.322,"end":5815.518,"text":"還有三 市府把一般垃圾丟大裡卻用低於價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物 圖利數千萬這問題你有沒有發現 還不少這問題是不是你們寫的這是我們台中審計處查的台中寫的當你們發現問題的時候你們發現問題 你知道你台中怎麼寫嗎"},{"start":5822.113,"end":5839.656,"text":"你怎麼寫 問題也不少耶你們最後想說 你們也覺得看起來內情不太單純但最後你們叫什麼叫台中市政府檢討叫台中市政府檢討而已耶欸 沈議長 百億耶這事情是大條還是小條 我就問你嘛"},{"start":5841.155,"end":5867.521,"text":"你這個AI查到了你們心態是這麼講嘛你用AI可以解決這個問題嗎台中市的垃圾是有一點隱憂啦你用AI可以解決這個問題你剛剛不是說用AI要處理嗎你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎你這個沒有AI你都查到了啊你查到結果你叫市政府檢討100億的幣啊你用市政府檢討這AI可以解決的嗎 審計長我請問你這個是用人工查的用科技用人工查的什麼"},{"start":5868.521,"end":5894.515,"text":"這不是用AI查的不是用AI查的 用人工就查了啊可是那最後寫的是叫你市政府檢討而已啊這一番啦 他一定要檢討啦那要檢討 那知道這個案子怎麼樣嗎我們看到問題 一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔對啊 你就是這樣子而已啊那你不是可以直接移送嗎然後你再看看 最後的結果是怎樣幾位清潔人員被判刑"},{"start":5896.152,"end":5918.626,"text":"台市這麼大條 整百億的弊案發生在台中期發生在這噴色沙 結果你叫人檢討而已社會到高台會過 你心機不好你在做行刑內部監督這個案子累積了多少年從35億變85億 足足增加50幾億 共要300多億"},{"start":5921.909,"end":5949.334,"text":"花十七年的時間才能清允的垃圾山要再花工廠三十七億組長你不覺得這個案子大不大我問你嘛你後續要怎麼處理嘛這麼大的案子你要一個建樹建林啦你要直接找檢調 找廉政署查清楚寫那麼多報告有什麼用問題你都發現啊怎麼解決這不是高高舉起輕輕放下就是廉政大於廉小嘛 對不對"},{"start":5950.489,"end":5979.944,"text":"未來六年你是個角色我們會注意我們會注意這樣的一個事情再檢討一次嗎好好檢討 再檢討 繼續檢討有什麼特別的處理方式嘛 你就講啊我們還要整個了解因為這是在台中市審計處的報告寫那麼久了 你還要進行了解你要怎麼處理嘛 你現在想嘛你要怎麼處理嘛 怎麼了解"},{"start":5981.565,"end":6008.094,"text":"了解有什麼用 了解問題有什麼用要解決問題才有用啊你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段問題才會越來越大啦 沈議長這個公開打你們臉欸你審計完全沒有發揮效果 你知道嗎好 看地方出現這麼多問題沈議長 我再講給你聽最近的財政收支法 新法的財政收支法接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員怎麼說"},{"start":6010.626,"end":6029.847,"text":"你想 我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後按照目前的狀況 我先講給你聽你現在查到很多的地方問題地方的執行能力就出現了一個很大的問題我舉一個例子 113年的時候地方的這個決算剩餘款是716億"},{"start":6032.304,"end":6041.072,"text":"但是實質上 地方當初的政府預算短差是553億 簡單的講這一來一回當中就有1269億 這1269億沒有辦法去執行這是第一個問題 因為你人員不變就這樣子 1269億 到接下來"},{"start":6057.782,"end":6085.293,"text":"整個財政收支發放法之後呢地方上會多拿多少多拿4165億啦你看這4165億再加上1269億它以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下人員不變的情況底下又多了4160多億你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊你的角色就是匡正財政機率啊對不對"},{"start":6086.66,"end":6099.029,"text":"這是不是挑戰來了這整個問題是垂直分配出問題水平分配又出問題的情況底下以後地方政府有錢有錢的要死 窮窮的要命"},{"start":6102.086,"end":6123.192,"text":"沈議長 你有沒有想過這個問題接下來要怎麼辦 怎麼面對這一個行政院已經在邀集各地方政府來行政院的事情 我在問你的事情如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦你不要推給行政院剛剛講的有一些分配不出去財政部有這樣的一個說明"},{"start":6124.392,"end":6151.901,"text":"對整個的我們的財政的效益是有損失的你不要再跟我繞圈子了我知道你在跑運動圈我不想追你了目前的編制 預算的規模中央跟地方的市權都沒有調整是多了四一六五億以後市權如果再下放的話你這麼多人員沒有增加的話我看你怎麼執行你後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎 我跟你預言"},{"start":6152.745,"end":6163.866,"text":"就發紅包啦 大傻逼啦這種是最直接了當的啦這也最有可能浪費公帑啦沈議長 本席提醒你啦你到底有沒有去面對這個問題你到底有沒有想過這個問題我現在就要問你這個問題啦"},{"start":6165.905,"end":6172.692,"text":"我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題但是你可能是相對的角色你要怎麼面對這可能衍生出來問題審計人員要如何增加人量"},{"start":6191.169,"end":6214.849,"text":"你了解我意思嗎 所以我再跟你提醒一點相對是這種問題的話 你要去思考本席提醒你 問你的問題就是要去思考未來的六年的省計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰但是你要面臨未來六年之前 你要思考以前的六年以前的六年的地方預算 你要自己好好的思考如何去進行一個總檢討"},{"start":6216.492,"end":6234.885,"text":"還有你要去思考新版的財法法可能帶來的什麼樣的衝擊那我希望你在這個情況底下站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支法可能造成的衝擊你要寫一份專案報告有沒有可能 沈院長有"},{"start":6236.545,"end":6261.741,"text":"可以用這份報告來思考過去六年到底地方政府的財政或中央政府財政你也可以寫啦到底出了什麼樣的問題啦這一部新版的財政收支發問法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題而你的審計部的角色地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應你應該要提早有所因應那這個報告你什麼時候寫給本席兩個月"},{"start":6266.736,"end":6280.267,"text":"你如果提早寫出來的話有助於大家離去共識啦可以嗎可以45天可以嗎45天 好好 謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員的詢問也謝謝備題名人陳神記長"},{"start":6291.351,"end":6293.613,"text":"謝謝主席韓院長以及各位先進有請我們沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":6323.835,"end":6348.494,"text":"委員好 審計長你好我還是稱你審計長因為你現任就是審計長因為你在審計部的報告裡面有廠長去找出來現在政府施政的一些問題所以執政黨立委對你非常不友善"},{"start":6349.679,"end":6376.136,"text":"所以你被提名了 續任了老實講 英文叫做To my surprise我有一點詫異你自己感覺怎麼樣賴總統在提名你的時候你心裡是什麼心理我因為想休息了所以沒有續任的打算"},{"start":6377.09,"end":6402.682,"text":"原來沒有許願打算因為有替國家做一點事情已滿足所以是有點驚喜深感還是有責任但是在審計部他有他審計的價值他可以為國家為人民做一點事所以你是驚喜"},{"start":6405.616,"end":6432.283,"text":"驚喜不夠於不一定就很難形容驚訝不太像驚訝也不太說歡喜就是好像責任還沒有那個擔子還沒有卸下來我是有點驚訝因為在譬如說疫苗的事情 雞蛋的事情你們的單位很敢提出一些數字很好"},{"start":6435.367,"end":6461.892,"text":"但是後來也沒有很驚訝因為你也是高高舉舉輕輕放下你的用事請辭也都是四平八穩也不太敢去得罪黨黨變成這樣了我們來看喔我們來看比如說最大條的事情最該你應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長他怎麼可以不依法行政"},{"start":6463.28,"end":6489.567,"text":"立法院我們韓院長這麼辛苦在主持垂直一敲三讀通過的法案他為什麼可以不編預算去年的總預算已經這樣編了已經這樣編了 禁法補償不列今年警察人員的待遇條例警校的一個他的退休的提高特別是軍人"},{"start":6492.025,"end":6501.693,"text":"每個月多三萬塊的經營條例他不變審計部就應該講話啦這個還在立法院的預算審議前請問你 你有沒有事情審議"},{"start":6508.922,"end":6537.38,"text":"我們沒有事前審議的失蹤審議沒有失蹤審議因為這個還在還沒有經過大案通過大案通過我們以後有會議警會那個這個還在大案的 這個是尊重大案的審議前我就問你 今年的預算114年他不按照不依法編列進場補償進場補償 你要怎麼辦這個部分 已經事後了"},{"start":6538.751,"end":6562.267,"text":"這個部分 大院有意見 他已經追加預算了追加預算 把你砍掉以後再追加 還是砍掉啦他好像追加預算有進化補償喔對不對 還是砍掉啦所以我的意思是說 你都沒有角色啊我不能跳來最前面 因為這個是憲法體制所以是什麼 這個叫做違法"},{"start":6563.833,"end":6587.313,"text":"違背憲法 違背預算法這個是立法案編 行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到這個法律上的一個規定啦不然我老實請問你嘛 他這樣編有沒有違反預算法預算法寫得很清楚嗎 三組通過的法案你就要編預算了他是行政院怎麼思考的 我不太了解"},{"start":6588.201,"end":6611.757,"text":"對嘛 所以就你會被提名這些事情你就很體貼嘛 表面上說歐法的手藝這樣噴 你說歐法的手藝 咿咿咿你會做人 老實講是這樣啦齁 這個東西 唉唷 你一看那個數字 喔 這個執政黨的立委覺得你沒那麼細喔執政黨的立委跟你沒那麼細 在野黨的立委就會疼惜你這不是你厲害的地方咧"},{"start":6615.019,"end":6632.243,"text":"這個我們都是依法行政依照我的主責來做任何事情行政院亂砍終結預算 北截預算北截預算砍了650億 終結砍了96%這個東西你要不要升級一下"},{"start":6639.468,"end":6661.996,"text":"這個還在他那個補助款還沒有補助辦法還沒有送到大安備查大安要不要備查 大安備查以後我們就會注意這個事情我們來看現在我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢三部分"},{"start":6663.106,"end":6675.494,"text":"第一大部分就是統籌分配支付款第二 一般補助款第三 計劃型補助款請問你一般補助款是不是法定義務是不是"},{"start":6676.88,"end":6703.039,"text":"是不是你告訴我在總預算案裡面是列為在那個法定支出的表裡面是列一般性的它是法定義務支出喔它有這樣列 那個憲法也有稍微現在一直講說財化法有什麼窮者越窮富者越富這個叫因為你把這三個加起來才能算 我們就算一個東西來我們來看下一頁"},{"start":6704.616,"end":6727.612,"text":"我把這三個東西算進來台北市 台北市最多錢多了450億台北市112年度把這個全部加進來 補助的收入加進來全部加進來 台北市第三名113年第4名 114年第5名台北市那裡有最多"},{"start":6729.155,"end":6750.449,"text":"你要一起看啦你不能見數不見齡你不能只看所謂統籌分別稅款還有一般補助款還有計畫性補助款這個所以喔這個錢喔 老實講執政黨不必在那裡說裝窮啊根本手上都在執政黨手上因為台下就很清楚啊左手給你錢 右手把錢拿回來"},{"start":6752.944,"end":6774.933,"text":"所以這個觀念那個集錢的觀念錢都放在中央的口袋修修都不變到現在為止都不變這個事情老實講讓這個整個來講就這樣這個這只是才化法修法只有離島一小部分然後行政院"},{"start":6777.395,"end":6792.761,"text":"小題大作 魚目混珠 混水摸魚所以要重新來修這個長髮你知道要怎麼去嗎這個 老實講這個你應該記錄你們審計部都沒有小事你就看立法院的行政在那裡你都沒有小事 你都不講話"},{"start":6797.622,"end":6824.898,"text":"這個財化法是要中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展啊餅就這麼大所以中央啊地方要做下來大家好好的把做到大家都能夠兼顧到每一個縣市每一個啊你的角色勒你的角色勒請問審計部的角色勒因為這個還在我都在講這個都一些法律規定都還在大院的身上"},{"start":6826.775,"end":6855.674,"text":"什麼意思我聽不懂就是說補助辦法好像送到他在行政院好像有送來大院來看因為要經過大院被查他現在就這樣子所以逼著我我已經提案了補助辦法現在行政院命令我們要提高位階叫補助條例變成法律案好的你的補助就一定依法不可以隨便補助現在就是完全是中央政府高興的多給你一點不高興的少給你一點"},{"start":6857.233,"end":6882.249,"text":"看顏色在補助的中央有他全國移住的事情像國防、外交、珠珊、黃紅這些中央也有他要做的事情我們原來是中央地方的錢的分配75對25現在財務法通過以後按照行政院的編法只剩66但是我們目標希望60"},{"start":6883.69,"end":6900.842,"text":"中央應該變60不是66所以中央還只想抓在手上還有抓補助款所以說起來中央是很有錢的所以錢和市要稍微大家談一下中央和地方談一下錢跟市要一起"},{"start":6901.983,"end":6926.704,"text":"是錢給地方 事情給地方 這個沒有人反對但是你不能夠說因為我錢給你的 我一般補助還不夠回來不可以這樣子啦因為我們地方住也執行很久了所以大概大家可以接下來談一下那個沈機長你沒有聽出我的我的重點在於你什麼都敢申請你對行政院不申請"},{"start":6927.808,"end":6955.579,"text":"行政院 這個你答應我是根據答案通過的法例根據答案通過的決議我來做答案通過的預算我來做監督預算執行我是根據答案的一些你告訴我你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評他哪一件你告訴我一件就好 一件行政院一件"},{"start":6956.394,"end":6976.888,"text":"他的那個正義先導我有通知他說那個行政院正義先導還有什麼這個我跟你講因為行政院的金額不大我要抓的時候是看有時候金額很大他那個我是用電腦在跑如果違反規定我們會教他我要跟你講的是114年的總預算"},{"start":6985.007,"end":7013.264,"text":"鬧的這個樣子他不議法編列我們退回我現在就跟你預告他如果就這樣送過來沒有編軍人的三萬塊的加薪的兩百多億我們一樣退回故事重演故事重演沒有這個時候114年已經遠過了你就要審計我重點一直在放在這個地方就是大的事情這麼大的事情你跟我講文學會那個很小的事情大的事情"},{"start":7014.909,"end":7042.827,"text":"他不依法編列已經發生過一年了去年後來他追加預算這時候你要介入你都沒有介入你不敢介入最後我們審計不介入在行政院在行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中這個我們都尊重行政院的預算編注錢還有尊重大案的審議權請問你會期待六年以後"},{"start":7044.799,"end":7051.531,"text":"總統在提名你當升級長嗎我就大概沒有這種期待沒有這種期待沒有這種期待你就放膽"},{"start":7053.598,"end":7079.987,"text":"我跟你講N次了 省區長這支大刀你從我上一次提名的時候你就這樣講 一直督促我你督促我 建議我很多總結一下那個查核平台就是你建議的現在效果很好耶 20幾萬人這個謝謝啦 我的建議都聽了但是我要說這支刀要去撲"},{"start":7081.247,"end":7101.286,"text":"行政院長你怎麼講啊我變了啦 做任何事情還是順眾還是依法行政好啦 來 我就講審計部啊 我在看下一頁你真的為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你啊你老公做人咧我講什麼你都說好啊好啊然後你都留一手"},{"start":7102.415,"end":7126.898,"text":"你都留一手 留一手什麼 你做好人比如說 就業安定基金7000多億喔7200多億嘛7000多萬了對不起 7000多萬這個 你呢 只有減劣收回為什麼不剔除 不一樣喔減劣跟剔除不一樣喔你減劣 所以他今天又變成2億回來啦"},{"start":7127.975,"end":7155.322,"text":"七千多萬變成了 欸 納稅人的錢讓那個許民春開演唱會讓謝宜龍去一間酒店睡睡睡這些錢都是老百姓買單結果你把他什麼 把他檢列 你看 我有做喔 咱那時候說嗯 不錯 咱那時候說啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵"},{"start":7156.357,"end":7182.267,"text":"我檢列 我六年來檢列一千四百多億目前已經繳扣了兩三百億你檢列有些要剔除 這個要剔除這個用在私人的身上那個法院在做判決 那個已經送書法了也送檢查了 這個部分我們都做了"},{"start":7184.188,"end":7202.51,"text":"我們也在看 要求勞動部好好的查明這個到底在你勞動部是屬於你我問你 你又回答問題了你為什麼不敢用剔除因為剔除啊 剔除要很明確但是這個救護罰 明確嗎許明春開演唱會不明確嗎"},{"start":7204.599,"end":7233.411,"text":"他這個救護法他是用勞工性平他是有關這樣的一個情形所以這個救護法我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明這個我們已經進到勞動部我們問了他一下他今年沒有編那麼多沒有編沒有編要補回去他還在查編兩億補回去沒有"},{"start":7234.409,"end":7240.245,"text":"沒有 所以委員剛剛講的那個勞動部給我給我們的收名那這筆錢被我花掉了七千多萬怎麼辦"},{"start":7243.62,"end":7265.967,"text":"他要好好查明以後 如果公務的如果是公務的 要經過行政院編列 答應審理通過如果是適用的法官會判 他末日所得那末日所得 那個勞動部要去領回啊 要去請求啊法院判是根據你"},{"start":7267.202,"end":7291.572,"text":"如果你直接給他剔除法院判就不一樣了他就要求他賠你因為沒有經過法院判決我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定你用錢類不用剔除就是老祖國我們大部分就是因為不跟你扯這個來人員政策我也要講這個"},{"start":7293.895,"end":7305.685,"text":"這個你幾乎也不敢批評錯誤的人權政策你也不敢批評來 我們看離岸風電都要發展因為我們要求local content"},{"start":7306.966,"end":7332.6,"text":"國產的要自製要多少30%過去有要求所以我們賺夠的電價超過國際4.3塊一度4.3塊20年來我們台電增加的購電成本9100億光電大家都知道光電等於另外一個字四個字叫官商勾結光電的成本平均高於國際一度3塊錢我們現在來看"},{"start":7337.113,"end":7357.762,"text":"光電跟風電加起來也幾個%而已啊為什麼不用便宜的而且這麼貴現在備轉容量最近這幾天備轉容量只有3.8%到曲燈 曲燈下來就是紅燈紅燈下來就黑燈就不燈了這麼嚴重的事情我們沒有看到你省下一步"},{"start":7358.642,"end":7366.945,"text":"這件事情 你們稍稍審計一下我們有審計你要這樣的話離岸風電我們有處理過有一些蓋在那個飛行服務區的我們說這不行 這影響飛安"},{"start":7374.308,"end":7390.582,"text":"他要處理掉光電我們查到那個彰化那個是有一點一點差不多要到我們也要他移送夥伴那個台南的那個光電我們也有查所以大概如果我們發現我們損失發現我們一定作為"},{"start":7393.524,"end":7407.675,"text":"我現在是跟你講這個是我跟你我一直在強調的就是你現在都在比較技術面去認真你們的人去認真很好可以但是大方向你不敢碰你對行政院不敢碰"},{"start":7408.925,"end":7431.463,"text":"我就告訴你 我現在對你的期待因為你幾可能會過的你幾可能會過的那我就對你期待你應該不必想未來的六年你這次六年已經surprise了所以請你那個大刀準備向行政院 運動部的一些的政策"},{"start":7432.33,"end":7459.54,"text":"人員政策是錯的人員政策是錯的你都不敢批評你連講都不敢講我們有提過很多意見你沒有提過像現在台電的備載容量不夠備載容量有問題他的備用容量有問題我們通通都請他要注意你有沒有講過他的人員政策錯誤有沒有講這句話"},{"start":7461.294,"end":7476.656,"text":"沒有啊那個能源政策 那是政策政策我們要尊重你的前一任的審計長林青龍因為我行政院一般審計部沒有到那個我是根據政策來審計"},{"start":7479.684,"end":7502.2,"text":"我跟你講 你的前一任審計長叫林慶榮他就敢講 你就不敢講這也是你會做官的地方最後一項 你有時間不多了你知道我們現在對美關稅談判軍售商售 你知道吧我們現在第一個我們有200億美金的錢都付了東西都沒有來你要不要吹一下"},{"start":7502.813,"end":7528.12,"text":"有 這我們查過了是三千多億有一些萬了我們有的先互去的他要做實踐我們刪掉他第二個 我現在時間已經到了能不能要求我們的盡量要改為商售因為算在貿易逆差裡面有利於關稅談判可不可以這個是很大的事情可能要好好的國安部好好檢討"},{"start":7537.909,"end":7548.881,"text":"好 谢谢赖世宝委员的询问也谢谢被提名人陈神机长谢谢我们现在休息十分钟之后中嘉宾委员请准备询问现在休息"},{"start":8133.342,"end":8142.29,"text":"好 報告全院委員會我們現在繼續開會進行委員的詢問接下來我們請宗嘉斌委員詢問林德福委員請準備"},{"start":8156.363,"end":8178.055,"text":"好 主席在場委員先進列席的政務機關所長官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體集團女士先生有請我們陳審計長被提名麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長總委好審計長好稱呼您審計長因為您現在就是審計長對不對對審計長"},{"start":8180.598,"end":8207.452,"text":"過去你有沒有聽過 時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變有沒有聽過這句話有誰說的誰說的我倒不知道我知道現在極端氣候讓整個都變了連總統蔣經國先生說的蔣經國先生說的但是通常人家會說 有所變 有所不變請問一下 將近四年前我們的省紀長被提名的人有沒有改變沒有嗎 還是你嘛對不對 那我們來看一下"},{"start":8208.154,"end":8225.597,"text":"那如果人選沒有改變我們看審計法有沒有改變有財務審計有績效審計是不是跟以前一樣如果說人沒有改變法律的制度沒有改變那是什麼改變我們審計今天要重新來對您的"},{"start":8226.434,"end":8250.44,"text":"任命進行同意權的行使我們不禁要問要問有改變的地方對不對對人家說財政是恕政之母你同意嗎同意好那麼因此就你審計的角度來講審計部的權責審計長的最重要的功能就是對於財政來進行審計政府的財政政府的預算政府的財政擁擠政府的財政當是現在人來看"},{"start":8253.959,"end":8279.278,"text":"新版的財劃法它是我們最主要的改變對不對變化可能會很大今年變化還蠻大的那你對財劃法了解嗎有所了解我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款對不對一般型補助計劃型補助是不是這樣子那麼新版的財劃法它有哪些改變是不是在中央跟地方我先問你統籌分配稅是哪三個稅"},{"start":8284.198,"end":8304.363,"text":"所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅有沒有改變?沒有改變嗎?改變的是中央分配給地方的%就更多了嘛所以地方得到統籌分配就增加了嘛那請問中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了但是地方的水平分配根據什麼來分配?"},{"start":8305.416,"end":8329.953,"text":"根據本來財劃法是應該要跟財政貢獻度嘛新法是這樣但是要法的主要立場是在基本國策沒有錯但是基本上因為這三種稅六都跟非都來看是不是他們的財政貢獻度六都比非六都來的大"},{"start":8330.543,"end":8358.223,"text":"因為營業稅啊 所得稅啊 貨物稅啊你人多 錢就多 稅就多分配回去也是更多結果這麼一來我們將中央給地方的統統分配增加之後有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均這個可能要好好坐下來談因為呢 規模擴大但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看只是把貧富的差距拉大而已我們再往下看那麼一般性補助款用在哪裡"},{"start":8360.592,"end":8383.102,"text":"一般是補助團在調制財政營息包括了教育 社福 基本設施還有其他的基本支出對不對經常性 普遍性 基本建設還有維運的性質對不對但是很重要的要能財政均衡 請問一下100公斤的人跟50公斤的人誰的飯量比較大"},{"start":8385.192,"end":8400.366,"text":"100公斤所以六都來講他人口多他的基本需求多所以他獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較少的縣市非六都來的多對不對但是中央怎麼樣均衡中央只有用財力的分配"},{"start":8401.474,"end":8420.509,"text":"中央對你地方需求多的我要給你多你需求較少的就給的少頂多是A六都的財力比較不足我給你的比例比較高可以給到九成如果是六都的你的財力比較好雖然你的需求大我給你的比例就沒有達到九成比較少可能七成是不是這樣"},{"start":8421.65,"end":8445.925,"text":"但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這樣的小小的方式去調節但基本上一般性補助還是根據你六都跟非都的人口規模來設算所以六都當然一般性補助領的多非都的領的少 是不是這樣那我們來看最後還剩一個叫計劃型補助如果照這樣子負者橫負"},{"start":8446.914,"end":8463.467,"text":"平者欲平那我們怎麼樣去改變這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都怎麼提升提升他的財政的貢獻能力我們常說受人以魚不如受人以魚給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿你同意吧"},{"start":8464.187,"end":8479.944,"text":"所以計劃型補助是不是說如果你這些財政能力較差的縣市你提出好的計劃型那我中央給你幫助你提升讓你未來的財政改善這是不是中央最重要的調節地方均衡發展的一個手段"},{"start":8481.644,"end":8504.371,"text":"就像說我們對於有錢人家他不需要太多的支持窮人家的小孩你幫助他上進念書他以後出了社會他可以改善他家庭的生活經濟這就是我們的目的請問現在我們目前的新版財化法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計劃型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標"},{"start":8506.414,"end":8528.581,"text":"因為計劃性已經看起來因為他的餅這麼大他沒辦法因為就減少很多所以就應該是比較難所以我們看到這個圖統籌分配稅款根據你的財政貢獻度這裡面六都比非都來得強我們再來看一般型補助款"},{"start":8529.631,"end":8552.558,"text":"飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來的多中央能夠幫助有限最主要能夠調節台灣各縣市的均衡發展就是計劃性補助結果我們新版的財富法雖然從中央拿九兆的稅款給地方但是是擴大了都跟非都的差距然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小還是一樣都比非都拿的多"},{"start":8553.243,"end":8577.238,"text":"最後非督得以翻身的計劃型補助中央變少了是不是這樣子那我們怎麼辦來我舉個例子那現在我們來看一下中央給地方多了4165億的統籌分配稅款不管水平怎麼分請問地方政府的市權有沒有增加這次才話沒談到沒有談到簡單講就像我們辦個團散"},{"start":8579.332,"end":8579.852,"text":"那我來請教一下 我們常常說"},{"start":8608.564,"end":8618.074,"text":"有錢花跟盡量花這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花你知道還有第三種花嗎叫做拚命花"},{"start":8619.306,"end":8643.504,"text":"現在台北市政府本來財政就比較好這是財化法下去的結果他又多了四五百億請問一下 你的審計單位有同時增加對台北市政府多了這麼多錢他不只是有錢花 他不只是盡量花他還拼命花那事情沒成功 錢變多了會產生什麼問題 亂開嘛那審計是不是要防止地方政府亂開這是我們的主軸"},{"start":8647.369,"end":8670.398,"text":"那請問一下 那麼我說時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變但是審計廠沒有變 審計法沒有變但是地方都的財源變多了 事情沒有增加請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢 怎麼花 要嚴加審計是不是對那你們有增加人手嗎沒有沒有 那怎麼辦"},{"start":8671.889,"end":8698.158,"text":"我現在是用科技AI 數位這樣來做也要地方這樣來做如果必要的時候我們會請證人我們來看一下這是你113年的審計報告他說直轄市跟縣市政府有計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況管理作業欠當 是不是這樣子"},{"start":8698.958,"end":8714.132,"text":"有這樣的現象我們事前分配地方的事情沒有增加執行的量沒有增加你的審計能力沒有增加就給他更多的錢那你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版參考法之下做好你對地方政府的審計"},{"start":8715.188,"end":8739.637,"text":"我們還是會盡到我們的主軸啦但是這是我們的審計的主要主軸這個我們會再來加強這個監督的力道所以如果市權隨著財源來移轉到地方政府譬如說本來學校的電費是中央補助現在地方政府錢多了電費自己出對你們審計作為來講是不是比較合理"},{"start":8741.829,"end":8764.847,"text":"我們是準備 像這個部分我們要進行聯合審計 科技審計那我們再來問一下 之前我請教過你屏東縣的自來水普及率 電底 全國是95%台北市是99.83% 屏東只有41%那時候我跟你請教這個普及率問題呢屏東為22個縣是排最後面的"},{"start":8765.387,"end":8794.398,"text":"所以我就請教你來看上次您說到說相較其他縣市持續提高屏東縣的自來水普及的預算這個效益是最好的你是不是同意同意完全同意所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助提高它的自來水的改善讓人民的生活品質提高對不對對那我先問你這次財務法公布之後有九個縣市貨配的補助更少了有沒有屏東是不是其中之一"},{"start":8796.369,"end":8816.736,"text":"他是行政院有出來答應說不會低於114那是行政院的說法那請問這個錯誤怎麼發生的我們看一下這個是低級錯誤啊財發法16條之一在場提出的法案本島19縣市跟離島3縣市通通以22個做分母結果呢"},{"start":8817.645,"end":8824.893,"text":"本島的部分有0.2%無法分配離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑"},{"start":8828.084,"end":8853.958,"text":"這個立法上有稍微沒有注意到好 那如果說全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的中央的錢變少了 跑到其他的有錢的都去了那請問我要問你 在這個財化法就算這個錯誤公式修改之後你覺得改過之後的財化法對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響"},{"start":8855.103,"end":8879.719,"text":"中央還有錢做嗎這個前瞻第五期啊前瞻第五期最近通過他大概是無知來水的這一個部分大概有一百多億我是希望能夠幫忙屏東因為屏東啊那要中央有錢啊中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東因為那個預算已經過了那個經濟部這106億啊前瞻已經過了你說106億地方要不要配合款"},{"start":8884.66,"end":8903.589,"text":"地方大概都一般都要有配合款結果我們屏東在財化修改之後我們貨配額數少於修法之前就算中央的錢沒有減少我們地方的能力變少了我們的沿管工程怎麼做我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做你覺得有什麼辦法"},{"start":8904.943,"end":8918.815,"text":"如果未來屏東自來水改善不理想你省紀部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府還是要糾正經濟部這個我們因為是這樣因為自來水地區的改善屬於自來水公司我們會去糾正"},{"start":8920.856,"end":8941.991,"text":"經濟部住來水 住來水公司但是巧合難為無米之炊我們錢變少了 我們怎麼樣來如期完成我們希望 因為屏東是低的我看 當時委員執行我的時候我看那個比例 其實那個比例經過了一年 增加不大那是以前有錢 明年開始沒有錢"},{"start":8942.991,"end":8970.7,"text":"所以我是希望這106億經濟部盡量用在屏東用鼓勵的基礎幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管謝謝啦 沈局長 感謝你啦但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了就算經濟部繼續支持 全力支持我們的自備款 配合款還是不夠來 我們看下一題我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼每一胎補足到10萬你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎"},{"start":8971.727,"end":8995.338,"text":"就是因為我們少數化是一個國安問題啦是蠻低的各種多元方式都要嘗試這是一種嘗試的方式我們非常因為我們審計的時候我審計了他四年他終於有提出說要一個花十萬啦我認為我跟你講你們自己審計部在2016年你們點名屏東33鄉鎮我們有鄉鎮做的一些生育補貼"},{"start":9000.18,"end":9029.033,"text":"第四胎甚至大方送到10萬結果呢 屏東一樣人口沒有增加甚至還繼續減少感覺上這樣的做法有沒有效果全國都有這樣的一個現象所以有婚禮宅也出來了有一個補助10萬也出來這時候 這都是我們當時查所提出的建議你們建議 建議10萬嗎還是說養一個小孩 統計要668萬要多元來處理這些事多元 來我們看一下 學者有研究過"},{"start":9030.097,"end":9055.498,"text":"中央研究院的基地所的研究員說啊2023年如果獲得分配100萬以上再往後的6年生育率呢會提高到多了0.07啊不要說10萬啦 給你100萬喔你幾乎生不了0.01啦但是如果給你1000萬的話呢每100個家庭就會多25個小孩好一點 你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1000萬嗎"},{"start":9056.567,"end":9071.103,"text":"我對政府的財政衝擊很大所以要多元方式所以說我請問一下低生育率問題不是要不要生沒有結婚要怎麼生"},{"start":9072.066,"end":9086.481,"text":"所以就有學者說啊低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩是不結婚啊那你覺得如果我們結婚每一個人第一次結婚政府給他送五十萬的大紅包你覺得怎麼樣 有機會嗎會因為這樣來結婚嗎這個是一種"},{"start":9091.006,"end":9107.263,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的看法和你一樣因為我們台灣的主女大部分都是婚生主女96%都婚生主女所以結婚是很重要的與其鼓勵生育不如鼓勵結婚兩個都有鼓勵"},{"start":9110.046,"end":9136.147,"text":"你給我10萬 我記得要持到18歲對不對 但是我就不要結婚啊你如果給我50萬 我來結婚結的金錢 我自己來處理好 所以目前呢我們說啊結婚大禮包至少要50萬如果現在是出10萬啦是不是剛做回來剛好所以政府說你叫我們的產婦啊 你要做回來政府給你10萬再做回來你覺得民眾是不是感覺剛好 窩心"},{"start":9138.568,"end":9165.55,"text":"這個是 也是一種方式啦這個可以啊 雙管齊下雙管齊下 做回來 給你十萬塊做回來高利貸你盡量生好 那是國安問題啊產物的生活品質 好 我們繼續往下看那少子化的對策 你看一看0到6歲的國家養友善家庭的職場兒童健康的權益保障友善的生育配套從107到114審計報告覺得有沒有太"},{"start":9166.732,"end":9186.86,"text":"有沒有效果 有沒有建議有 剛剛委員講他這個因為花掉國家從107到114花掉7000多億所以我們都有損失所以包括委員講的我們說結婚也要鼓勵有人笑我說你這個老金好像來 那我再問一個話題有沒有聽過明月"},{"start":9190.267,"end":9211.778,"text":"有沒有聽過民怨來民怨幾十有八九問青天啊民怨何處來借問審計官為什麼民怨跟審計有關你知不知道我們以這次的風災好了啦我們現在呢往下看來你看這柱店整個的柱子破一天跟整個的現料料"},{"start":9212.625,"end":9239.378,"text":"我們站在政府的角度我們統計補助十萬啊破一坑的我們補助一千現在我們補助百分之百 補助十萬你覺得合理嗎這個要看政府的財政能力啦但是 最多就十萬而已嘛盡量 因為這些啊 都受災戶那盡量幫助他們那我跟你講 現在地方遇到的情況行政官員說 你如果破一坑我給你省省的面積一千十萬塊我再補助一萬"},{"start":9240.919,"end":9261.521,"text":"你要是破很多坑 面積超過八成 九成你要全部種完 我給你補走十萬但是請教一下 我出現破一坑 我全部種完政府可不可以補走我十萬 有沒有不合理我的房子這麼老舊了 雖然破了一個洞 面積未達五成我全部把它換新 你政府是不是要補走我百分之百 補走我十萬"},{"start":9263.256,"end":9282.115,"text":"這個部分 自宅的這個部分我們內政部或是營建室內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員在事後審計的影響如果說今天內政部說關台你破一坑或是轉沒現料料你叫轉沒煩心 你轉沒煩心報告委員 我們的審計是根據"},{"start":9285.846,"end":9308.431,"text":"那個 內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響我來講啦 減少民怨喔不要用我們政府的心血來輸課我一間40年的老廚就算我破了一天沒籌過三十年我全部中華我欠了五十四十萬我要求政府補助我 足夠補助 十萬有幾分嗎"},{"start":9309.611,"end":9336.796,"text":"所以說民怨怎麼來 審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變 我們來看一下現在的基層怎麼樣 多做多錯 寫報告跑法院其實我們來看一下 你們審計現在在追蹤啊說要出一條陷阱啊 那風太多了過呢 申請案走走風太已經過很久了 申請案走多了 這樣合理嗎這樣合理嗎 應該是風太多做人申請嘛 要越來越少 你覺得這樣哪一個合理"},{"start":9339.071,"end":9367.282,"text":"這個應該風太過 心情比較正常因為風太多了過 市議會都請不上工啊我就是想要還 我也找不上工所以聽到有工來做的時候 很多人就來請補助啊所以我要說的是說 審計的思維要改 往下看所以檢討監督級評論模式期望審計要體察民意不要用政府的採購的思維來要求人民配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助 所以最後"},{"start":9367.842,"end":9376.729,"text":"最後 希望這三年的一個主張請我們沈記長回去好好研究再給本席一個回溫好不好 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人陳沈記長 謝謝"},{"start":9400.632,"end":9402.915,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請林德福委員請詢問李坤城委員請準備"},{"start":9428.537,"end":9445.091,"text":"海院長還有陳審計長是不是請陳審計長麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長林委員好陳審計長你好陳審計長我請教"},{"start":9448.235,"end":9470.793,"text":"有關於修憲相關的議題立法院目前有委員提出憲法增修條文提議要匯除監察院並將中華民國憲法中有關於監察院審計部的職權業務移至立法院並於立法院下設審計部還有審計權的遺留"},{"start":9476.168,"end":9477.57,"text":"立法院來行使"},{"start":9480.466,"end":9500.379,"text":"2026年九合一大選很有機會來合併舉行修憲複決的投票未來修憲結果攸關整個審計部組織的歸屬今天提名審查本席請問審計長您對上述的修憲議題對審計部未來定位的看法"},{"start":9509.287,"end":9527.318,"text":"提醒建立還是完全尊重未來立法院相關決議以未來公民修憲複決的投票的一個結果報告委員謝謝委員關心我們這個應該非常大的一個對我們審計非常大的影響的一個問題"},{"start":9531.836,"end":9556.238,"text":"依照國際最高那個審計機關 獨立能夠獨立性 審計的獨立性非常重要就是說法律要保障他 座位不受干預 資料取得不受限首長要任期 大概還有八大支柱 要我們這樣做那這個部分 我們如果"},{"start":9558.839,"end":9582.784,"text":"大宴有成立的修憲委員會如果考監如果有受到影響我們審計部也會受到影響我們審計部的立場就是還是要希望能夠維持超然獨立所長的任命要維持在憲法因為這個是最高審計機關希望"},{"start":9585.134,"end":9600.467,"text":"今天要是經過這個整個憲法遵修條文要是提議通過 你有什麼看法這個部分因為這個部分現在世界各國世界各國"},{"start":9601.585,"end":9625.925,"text":"剛剛講有在國會的 也有獨立的也有司法型的 也有行政型的差不多有四種大部分除了美國和英國以外大概都是在國會其他最主要的都是獨立因為獨立不受政治的干擾"},{"start":9627.626,"end":9643.623,"text":"那問題是過去現在的執政黨他們一直主張就是會監察院會考試院所以說才有人提出這樣的一個條文對不對那要是條文通過那沈記長你有什麼看法"},{"start":9644.468,"end":9664.238,"text":"我們是希望能夠比照世界各國的大部分的國家能夠獨立於三權之外這樣才能夠超然獨立本席認為強化審計功能能夠強化政府機關經費的有效應用"},{"start":9665.579,"end":9675.888,"text":"以促進政府整個財政的一個透明增進公共利益來提升政府財政效能來勘緊納稅人的荷包"},{"start":9677.162,"end":9701.924,"text":"那像AI人工智慧科技發展非常的迅速那本席也從媒體報導得知有審計官來導入AI人工智慧利用AI來查閉比對案件從中果然來發現有一些異常進而揪出不肖的廠商追回部分政府的預算"},{"start":9703.165,"end":9730.297,"text":"那審計部在115年預算打算推動AI審計資料中心的發展計畫那請陳審計長您來說明目前AI人工智慧在審計方面的應用未來若要是您繼續來擔任審計長後會如何來強化應用AI人工智慧來追查弊案以協助第一線審計官的辦案"},{"start":9732.848,"end":9749.844,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛在那裡報告未來的方向第一個 智慧審計第一個方向就是智慧審計我們的人力非常少 我們所有的審計室只有十幾個人"},{"start":9751.141,"end":9779.692,"text":"十幾個人要審計一個像彰化縣或者是這種只有十幾個人所以要用的就是AIAI可以當我們的審計助理可以當我們的審計顧問這個是這樣但是這個是協助我們行政作為主要的判斷還是審計人員要去做判斷但是現在我們的查帳是用數位比對"},{"start":9780.872,"end":9790.583,"text":"剛剛查出剛剛委員報告手指示的那幾項大部分都用數位數位就是說資料庫和資料庫比對像我們查出"},{"start":9792.854,"end":9811.39,"text":"這個法案已經判刑了這個廠商要停錢我們發現一千多家都沒有停錢所以才會發生那個太魯閣那個案子那個普悠瑪還是太魯閣那個案子啊或者發現我們用這個這個是會比對發現"},{"start":9813.292,"end":9841.631,"text":"圍標一千兩千多件我們都移送減掉我們會用這樣來看有的像這個被法院停錢的要沒收押要不要進我們收回一億六千多萬所以這些都是數位最後用AI做幫忙用數位用那個流程主動化每天他在做這個掃描所以"},{"start":9843.292,"end":9862.59,"text":"這個智慧審計或者AI審計或者數位審計對我們審計人力有很大的幫助對我們審計人員有很大的幫助我們會發展所以剛剛委員有提到AI審計資料中心是我們2015年主要的工作"},{"start":9864.69,"end":9883.663,"text":"那針對一零七年中選會前主委陳英賢違法失職重新刊登公告這個公投的公告來啟動第二預備金多花了人民納稅前九百三十一萬監察院已經認定嚴重損及政府的公信力"},{"start":9884.443,"end":9912.429,"text":"那憲法法庭以決議不受理懲戒法院也多次駁回在審那最近一次在審是114年4月24日上訴駁回那本席認為這是違法公告官員犯錯卻是用百姓納稅錢來付錢那中選會前主委陳英權必須負起他的責任中選會不當的支出"},{"start":9913.958,"end":9938.533,"text":"應事後來踢除追繳那已經多少年過去了因為他從107年到現在那陳英權一再來逃避該戶籍的賠償責任本席希望審計部你不要忘記處理陳英權最慢你認為何時可以把錢追回來你是不是給本席一個"},{"start":9939.707,"end":9964.689,"text":"報告委員 委員非常關心這個案子謝謝委員關心這個案子我們一直也注意到114年以後啊淳林前沒有再上市我們就棄了公室給中選會中選會啊我們說這個可能淳林前這個部分要處理他中選會回我回我一個意見說那是"},{"start":9965.745,"end":9976.752,"text":"那是委員會決議的不是從前一個人做的所以初步他回我們這個意見我們的同仁還在研究如何對這個委員會的決議所做的"},{"start":9981.154,"end":9996.888,"text":"在做處理 所以這個委員關心的 我們也非常關心推給所有委員 他們共同來決定這個實在是很扯啊而且我認為那是推脫之職啦我要看你哪時候能夠追出來啦因為這是給社會一個交代 這都是民始民高"},{"start":10005.676,"end":10030.015,"text":"我們也是這樣認為這也對整個社會大家以後的行政大概都依法行政本來就是應該要依法行政大家都依法行政就在這個行政不能透過委員會來演示來掩蓋老百姓大家都在看"},{"start":10030.975,"end":10056.947,"text":"那你身為沈記長當然你有責任有義務而且你是一直駁回這個你說他身為一個主委不必負擔嗎他有相對的權利就相對應該要負責責任我們也在探討是不是省界法院判他20萬他自己也離主了政治責任也處理了這樣是不是就是他的責任931萬變20萬這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":10060.728,"end":10087.899,"text":"對 這個是委員的意見我們用這樣的意見和中選會談還在談 我認為那個沈記長 這個一定要繼續追而且我希望你給我一個時間這第一點 第二點光做一個陳英權違法失職濫用預算的案件都要花六年以上的時間都還沒有結果那勞動部就業安定基金濫用預算七千兩百二十四萬"},{"start":10089.039,"end":10118.239,"text":"被追回的那一天恐怕我看更遙遙無期那本席接著詢問審計部追查勞動部前部長許明尊長期濫用就業安定基金後續的進度審計部日前來揪出包括演唱會性別平等音樂會辦理空間裝潢包括軌道燈的裝設等等最後決定提出期間"},{"start":10121.28,"end":10142.728,"text":"224萬本席認為不能只用公務預算來歸電否則就是全民買單那政府機關要負起應有的責任讓那些違法失職要繼續來追討他們濫用預算那沈記長你針對這個就業安定基金預算濫用追討的情形"},{"start":10144.195,"end":10160.49,"text":"你認為在未來怎麼樣去防弊而且針對這個事情你認為應該要怎麼做我們防弊這部分有幾個面向勞動部已經在改了 已經處理了但是我們也在追它的成效如何"},{"start":10163.312,"end":10188.366,"text":"再來基金和公務要切開他切得如何這個我們都在處理有一些像裝潢那些那些我們檢調已經那個懷疑有的已經判了裡面判了裡面有涉及要默入所得的部分勞動部要去請求回來洗前部長的這個部分還在修法"},{"start":10192.108,"end":10216.157,"text":"司法處理當中 至於那7000多萬要怎麼處理我們已經請勞動部要直向查明勞動部現在在做這方面的處理陳記長 針對各部會裡面要是有雷同像那種就業案例基金這個我認為不是光只有勞動部而已"},{"start":10217.077,"end":10239.586,"text":"其他單位 一併啊都要查得清清楚楚的我們查出來有57個基金基金和公務啊 混入我們希望把它因為行政院的規定是要把它分 化分清楚所以這個部分我們已經行文給相關單位化分清楚那個基金啊"},{"start":10240.563,"end":10255.426,"text":"也是這個人民的血汗錢 對服務人作為他們自己的一個私有的金庫這個我們都會查現在以前大家都說會查公務現在我們基金也會查"},{"start":10256.327,"end":10277.289,"text":"營業也會查 財團法輪我們也會查這一個部分我們都在努力好啦 我希望那個沈記長一定要積極 不能放縱我認為說今天身為公務人員你就要依法行政那你今天不依法行政你縱容他 會養成他胃口越來越大"},{"start":10278.81,"end":10303.342,"text":"所以說我希望你好好的去追查這些問題截至114年9月5日丹納斯颱風所造成太陽能光電板受損影響為十二萬一千多片其中有三萬兩千片經檢修還尚可使用還可再利用其餘的八萬九千多片需要委託這些廢棄物的廠商來處理"},{"start":10305.843,"end":10314.932,"text":"丹納斯臺灣把太陽能光電板摧毀但也暴露了大型光電暗場缺乏防災應變計畫及壓光電板清除計畫"},{"start":10319.383,"end":10340.982,"text":"那沈記長你認為以沈記部這個認為說人員署收取光電板回收費用作為處理泰裔的模組織基金110年到112年衛甲回收費大約有1億左右那衛甲的比例大約佔10%"},{"start":10343.363,"end":10363.232,"text":"本席希望審計部持續監督經濟部以及及早的改善來啟動檢討太陽能光電板這些設備模組回收的費用以確保未來處理太溢的這些太陽能光電模組的費用來源我們去查這個模組費用的問題應該"},{"start":10367.182,"end":10391.973,"text":"到112年應該繳10點多億但是有4億 差不多將近4億沒繳我們催冷黑鼠 你要他去繳現在好像要處理這些廢棄物啊可能NSO的費用還不足可能還是要請冷黑鼠好好檢討這個光電模組的這些因為他"},{"start":10393.354,"end":10415.509,"text":"沒有想到會一陣颱風來摧毀了這麼多所以當時就是說20年後30年後財財處理沒想到就受到風災的損害所以這個我們會來照委員的意思來處理因為講實在話這些光電風電裡面弊端重重我相信你也很清楚"},{"start":10416.289,"end":10432.414,"text":"本席是支持穩健的綠能發展但不希望整個政策本末倒置漁電共生政策必須落實以養殖為本那綠電加值的原則當初政府官員政策講得非常漂亮"},{"start":10433.214,"end":10447.575,"text":"但是現實卻是有電無餘根據審計部報告指出2025年1月底以查核與電共生的這個案場其中有7成多未落實養殖的事業"},{"start":10448.877,"end":10470.723,"text":"的事實 那審計部統計全台大概完工併網的漁電共生案場一共有393件那只有122件這個其中通過37件有待改善的以及招廢止的有85件未落實養殖者比例佔69.67%主要還是農業結合綠能設施 衛能符合"},{"start":10477.805,"end":10491.689,"text":"原来的这些养殖计划本期是希望说沈记长你要承诺一定共生要持续列为沈记部稽查的重点终结有电无鱼的这些乱象你有没有什么看法"},{"start":10492.823,"end":10498.387,"text":"這個是這樣 那個是我們去看了看了以後 因為我們損棄的發現但是我們損棄發現都是根據一夜暑的計畫我們不會鑄創計畫一夜暑的計畫裡面要有魚"},{"start":10508.396,"end":10527.613,"text":"後來我們去看沒有魚後來我們通知了1月101月10後來有一些說明他們已經改善了一些了但是我們就照委員的意思還是要他繼續改善因為希望有魚又希望有電這個是看能夠取得雙重"},{"start":10530.215,"end":10554.994,"text":"都是雙重的獨立我們是希望這樣但是ES做的事情一樣以為主那個沈記長你包括離岸風電都一樣因為離岸風電它一開始有七成是短購短購就是溢價然後三成公開招標公開招標跟短購"},{"start":10556.135,"end":10577.933,"text":"那個價格之差實在是沒有辦法處理結果那個囤購以後我問那個沈龍津部長他說那些將來就是要技術移轉結果人家有申請專利你要技術移轉根本就不可能都是半成品進來插在那個海邊然後那楓葉裝一裝"},{"start":10579.494,"end":10594.466,"text":"那個根本騙局一場其實這裡面弊端重重啦沈記長我希望你要把這個事情要好好的查因為短購跟公開招標落差很大你去把它調出來看真的那個落差之大"},{"start":10595.944,"end":10610.051,"text":"這個委員這是一個事實 我們也查了我們也發現國產化的進度都落後沒有啦 都是半成民進來啦但是也發現有的廠商他後來要國產化 他也有他的意見"},{"start":10617.884,"end":10641.601,"text":"那個沈記長 那個都是騙局一場啦都是扮成敏進來摘下去啦 楓葉插一插啦然後說短購 一直飆二十年欸二十年台電損失九千一百億一年要損失四百五十五億關離岸楓電而已喔 光電還不算喔所以說這些問題應該要查清楚給社會一個交代我們會繼續啊 來追蹤 後來繼續來查核我認為希望沈記部要多用一點"},{"start":10648.561,"end":10651.567,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員的詢問也謝謝被提名的陳審計長 謝謝"},{"start":10676.701,"end":10682.955,"text":"好我們接下來請今天登記第七位最後一位詢問的委員李坤城委員請詢問"},{"start":10703.121,"end":10729.037,"text":"謝謝院長 我們請沈記長麻煩請被提名的陳審議長在此李委員好沈記長好 辛苦了因為我們常常在我在省政委員會所以我們碰面的機會比較多給我們督促 給我們主導給我們協助 謝謝謝謝沈記長今天這一輪問下來你對於你的人事同意權有沒有信心"},{"start":10731.219,"end":10749.907,"text":"我是對如果能夠再繼任我對我有信心帶領我損棄同仁善盡損棄足足幫政府做一點事或者和行政部門共促進良善助理這個是大概有這個信心"},{"start":10751.287,"end":10778.475,"text":"您的角色跟我們立法委員的角色也有雷同之處我們審查預算然後看預算每年度執行的情況怎麼樣審計是看決算當然也是看說預算執行的情況是怎麼樣所以其實立法院跟審計部對於勘警預算這個荷包大概有相同的地方我請教一下審計長新的財務法修正之後"},{"start":10779.775,"end":10804.231,"text":"當然地方上面我們也從中央有撥了大概有4165億到地方去 從中央撥到地方去但是因為這次修法的確比較倉促包括我們在財政委員會三分鐘就出委員會然後最後在表決質詢的時候所送出來版本跟朝野協商版本到最後通過版本也不一樣所以有發生一些問題"},{"start":10805.431,"end":10824.732,"text":"後續所衍生的問題 包含第一個統籌分配款的公式錯誤然後城鄉差距擴大 适權財權分配的問題那也錢存的地方財政資源雖然增加但是地方政府的執行能量或是財政的努力不足"},{"start":10825.659,"end":10844.418,"text":"甚至有可能會發生說你多了這麼多的預算有可能在執行上面有問題的地方因為我也看你們的決算的報告也的確也抓出來說很多的地方政府在執行預算的時候發生說你明明有這些預算但是你的執行力不夠後續會再跟審計長再來討論我再請教一下"},{"start":10846.26,"end":10868.371,"text":"因為您之前也擔任過 主席處的副主席長現在是省計長 請問一下這次的財化法的修正大家討論最多的 也認為爭議最大的就是財權有劃分了 但是市權沒有跟著走以您的角色來看 財權跟市權怎麼樣的劃分會比較好"},{"start":10870.532,"end":10884.089,"text":"這個在我們相關的法裡面說希望中央一致性的或者引導性的由中央來做地方住住的由地方來做七一透性的由地方來做剛剛委員講"},{"start":10885.33,"end":10906.644,"text":"其實有時候看起來4100億其實增加快一倍所以我是希望中央和地方好好談把事和錢讓地方住住能夠預約事你就去做大家把事情大家談好"},{"start":10909.545,"end":10927.87,"text":"這樣對國家 站在國家整體的立場是對國家是會比較好所以我希望能夠借還有435億來平衡城鄉如果還有一些空間補助款的空間來平衡城鄉順便談談私和錢當時有些像排水"},{"start":10934.782,"end":10950.479,"text":"雨水像現在極端氣候很厲害啊那個排水應該是上中油啊那可能中央要幫忙那如果光地方去弄啊可能白飯碗徹底整理你看當時我們也查出來雨水排水到當時規劃7000多公里"},{"start":10953.466,"end":10980.127,"text":"現在只做了五千多公里還有一千多公里沒做我們是希望那這個是中央的責任還是地方的責任這一個我們是希望現在是水利署在幫如果能夠趕快把它做好極端氣候來的時候我們的潤性就夠所以這個是一些希望但是我們損失上我們會在後面來盡量督促但是這個才化法"},{"start":10980.587,"end":11002.424,"text":"影響整個國家整體的發展如果分配那時候的分配很重要所以我們是希望中央和地方能夠好好坐下來談談出一個我們也希望中央跟地方好好坐下來談但是發現說那個地方政府他們喊出來口號是地方包圍中央那沈界長怎麼看"},{"start":11003.151,"end":11016.021,"text":"我們還是大家要平心進去能夠大家是我差不多有的事情我已經做了有的事情別的縣市還沒做有的像農業縣它開源很難"},{"start":11019.263,"end":11042.688,"text":"因為我們的裡面都是財產稅貨財產稅貨者就佔的百分之四十幾你要叫農業縣去弄財產稅不太容易中央都會行的比較開源比較容易但是農業行的其實啊他有他的先天的限制所以應該大家"},{"start":11043.928,"end":11058.733,"text":"所以沈縣長也認為說這次的財務法的確在垂直分配跟水平分配上面出現了問題一些指標性上面你講的說一些指標性的問題也出現了我看也有委員希望說農業可能你限制他農業發展"},{"start":11059.893,"end":11077.134,"text":"限制他的土地只能做農業嘛其實也要給他機會這樣的確會造成說漁業稅收的比較多的一些縣市他越來越有錢因為他分配到的這個統籌分配款其實增加了那其實對一些中南部的農業縣市來講指標相對來講對他也不利啊"},{"start":11077.634,"end":11102.101,"text":"那就變成說我們本來修財化法是希望說能夠均衡這個地方各個縣市的發展那不夠的本來是中央透過這個一般性補助或是計畫性的補助來調衡那現在變成沒有這個彈性了現在你全部都下去給地方那就發生說我等一下後續會再跟審計長討論的問題那這個如果現在按照目前所通過的財化法會影響到說後續的你們這個審計的一些作為嗎"},{"start":11107.883,"end":11133.201,"text":"會 因為我剛剛提到它原來2014年的統籌分配款4600億是歷年來相當高的一個部分現在大幅增加了到8000多億這些如果進到它的個機關去我們的地方的損失量能產生衝擊這個我們已經在想辦法因應要怎麼因應大概"},{"start":11133.781,"end":11149.114,"text":"第一個我要聯合審計這幾個七億啊聯合審計第二個我要用AIAI是我當助理當顧問我要去審計以前我要去看這個淡水河的時候我要看什麼AI會告訴我"},{"start":11150.194,"end":11177.784,"text":"完了以後這個怎麼樣整合但是最後由我們審計人員來做判斷因為我告訴我們審計人員做任何事安全第一你租姓 租姓安全第一所以我也請我們的租姓市長每個月幫我查一次這些像外面拿來的那些數位資料我們不能出任何差錯所以這個大概我們用數位審計來"},{"start":11179.065,"end":11198.866,"text":"來做 會AI來做那最主要會用數位損盡大家希望能夠幫地方政府看出因為其實損盡是應該如果所長願意的話可以把損盡當朋友因為損盡你有時候你當一個所長千頭萬細"},{"start":11200.787,"end":11216.299,"text":"審計去幫你看如果那個報告也是要把主計跟審計都當好朋友對 你要把它人家審計講的有道理如果別的道理你可以告訴審計你的觀點可能有問題我們的觀點可能有問題如果我講的對他們應該要趕快去做"},{"start":11221.623,"end":11237.417,"text":"我再請教一下審計長我有看你們這個審計報告就是說我剛才提到就是說我們希望說地方政府拿到這個預算之後當然能夠去好好的執行所以我們也討論到它的執行力但是幾個比較大的案子譬如說像花蓮縣政府"},{"start":11238.338,"end":11252.807,"text":"他們的議會也提到就是說花蓮縣政府很多的計劃都是倒著做計劃先想出來了然後再去想說接下來要去怎麼樣去做所以包含什麼鄉縣大道 青年住宅等等"},{"start":11253.283,"end":11275.178,"text":"事前都沒有做過可行性評估導致推動後遇到許多的問題審計部在決算報告中都有做檢討 這第一個基隆也有 基隆就是說在113年度的總決算審核報告當中也指出來基隆市政府重大建設計畫執行率偏低部分計畫低於六成"},{"start":11276.183,"end":11287.803,"text":"顯示推動的效能不足提到就是說你有錢但是你沒有這個執行力還有你們在113年的審核報告中也提到"},{"start":11289.807,"end":11310.848,"text":"中央有編列計劃預算8.6億要來協助地方改善殯葬設施不足及老舊的問題但是計劃期屆將滿半數的績效指標累計達成率未及三成很多啦 我就舉一些重點來看然後還有地方補助"},{"start":11312.182,"end":11336.03,"text":"中央補助地方2.4億發展地方創生然後省基部也舉出來就是說九成的計畫沒有人按照期限來完成這個撥給地方總共2億4829萬然後兩成的計畫核定後測案九成的計畫未能一線完成這是國發會給地方做的這個地方創生等等"},{"start":11336.57,"end":11355.203,"text":"好 那就是回到我剛開始問這個審計黨的問題這樣我們也擔心就是你一下子地方多了比過去多了一倍的4165億的這個統籌分配款再加上現在在野黨要求計劃性的補助款跟這個一般性的補助款都不能低於前年度的這個撥補的這個預算"},{"start":11358.105,"end":11387.225,"text":"問題來了會不會造成我剛才講就是說你拿到這麼多錢了你現在發生執行力的問題因為你第一個我們也還看不到說到底現在各個縣市的對於拿到這麼多的預算他的計畫有沒有提出新的計畫第二個他的公務員的能力就是這樣子就是這麼多他有沒有辦法來執行這麼多的預算會不會最後造成說這些預算有可能會變成浪費或是甚至你沒有辦法執行到這些預算"},{"start":11389.349,"end":11395.382,"text":"我剛剛講 餅就是這麼大切了以後有的多了 有的少了但是"},{"start":11396.381,"end":11424.156,"text":"他的一個組織型態就是原來的所以這個族群上有時候會一下子前來了不知道怎麼用的確會發生這種情況因為我剛舉了好幾個例子就是已經給地方了地方也提出計畫了但是地方的執行力有問題那這個是還是過去已經按照這一個計畫給的那現在是你多了"},{"start":11425.016,"end":11440.107,"text":"這麼多 多了是世間多餘那我也擔心就是說那中央的好意在地方上面會不會變成執行上面的一個困擾像這種中央以前給的我們會希望他要規劃好所以順夫使"},{"start":11440.984,"end":11465.156,"text":"一個事情規劃很重要再來它因為整個建設有前週期的生命週期差不多一直規劃到營運它是有五個階段的但是規劃的時候是很重要你如果規劃的剛剛委員講你沒有規劃好以後整個族型的時候發現這裡也有問題那裡也有問題所以會造成"},{"start":11466.696,"end":11484.601,"text":"一些困境沒辦法執行或者是效能不佳這個是一個問題再來委員談的我也去注意到因為地方給了這麼多我們114年到6月我們有查地方的公共建設"},{"start":11488.562,"end":11508.218,"text":"1066項 其中有超過八成的只有四個單位 其餘都低於八成你說只是低於八成喔其餘有四個單位是高於八成以上有剩下到六位 今年都六位他們大概我們就先疫警"},{"start":11508.918,"end":11536.437,"text":"他們可能會趕工會處理但是所有的事情在規劃我希望這些事情你要提前就把方案規劃好放著錢來了方案提出來再檢討一下根據實際方案再修正就可以趕快發報趕快做現在看起來不是這樣子現在看起來是先有錢了計畫好像還沒有看出來他因為先有錢來了但是因為其實是這樣"},{"start":11537.758,"end":11557.177,"text":"我看了統籌會議是多了但是一般性補助款是為儲但是計劃型是有減了一些所以加起來他沒有多到那麼多所以整個所以要中央和地方要坐下來好好談一下"},{"start":11557.777,"end":11582.042,"text":"你這樣看計劃性補助款因為中央的餅就是這麼大所以說統籌分配款增加了計劃性補助款中央可能會本來是屬於我們在講的財權跟市權有些是屬於這個地方應該要處理的所以中央就不做這個補助了當然也引起地方上面一些反彈但是在野黨他們打算修這個財化法他就是說計劃性補助款"},{"start":11583.554,"end":11600.608,"text":"這個你也不能少一般性補助款你也不能少所以那個彈性就沒有了所以我一直希望中央和地方我們是站在全國一體全國一體這個是我們只有台灣這個島我們希望每個人都好"},{"start":11601.617,"end":11627.962,"text":"我都不是說希望目前的採劃法的修法至少目前修成這樣子你有認為說對台灣整個20個縣市都好嗎那個看在最後因為剛好他有產生一些矛盾所以有機會大家再談 談好像你剛才講的六都歸六都台北市大家怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":11629.882,"end":11641.687,"text":"當然行政院已經有答應說不會少於114年的那些一般性補助款、同仇分配授款加起來的總額行政院的善意是已經釋出來了"},{"start":11643.37,"end":11670.488,"text":"好 那再請教一下這個沈縣長剛剛你也提到就是說一些財劃法的指標性的問題就是說目前在這個指標裡面它的分配共識裡面對於人口數還有這個營利事業營業額的指標合起來佔了75%左右這也是我剛才所擔心就是說你如果把這個指標放在這裡的話當然對於雙北桃園六都來講可能"},{"start":11671.508,"end":11696.441,"text":"所增加的這個統籌分配款會比較多但是對於非六都的這些農業縣市來講就有可能會相對來講會減少甚至連彰化縣這麼大的一個縣它其實人口數也算多但是它有可能因為它本身屬於工廠的部分大公司的部分比較少所以在這次的統籌分配款裡面它拿的其實相對其他六都來講是少的那請教一下就是說"},{"start":11697.341,"end":11715.191,"text":"按照目前的修法的公式來看的話那沈建展有沒有認為有什麼可以需要再做調整的地方讓城鄉差距的差距我們本來要縮小但是這次財務法修法之後我們沒有看到城鄉差距的縮小反而讓它擴大"},{"start":11716.748,"end":11732.913,"text":"這個因為分配本來在分配之前如果能夠做一些大家談因為分配出去大家都知道我可以拿多少如果少對他來講是一個衝擊"},{"start":11734.734,"end":11752.871,"text":"所以坐下來談 大家談到把這些談到一個合理的數字能夠幫助窮鄉僻壤或者能夠讓建設還沒開始的怎麼談 沈界長這邊有沒有什麼因為你每年的決算你都可以看得出來說各個縣市政府"},{"start":11753.351,"end":11769.341,"text":"在執行預算的時候 出現了一些問題按照你的角度來講 怎麼談對於財務法的修正未來不論是行政院 如果提出自己的版本的話那要怎麼樣去修 會比較好一點"},{"start":11770.792,"end":11798.94,"text":"這一個我是沒有去因為這不是我的主軸所以我沒有做那麼深入的探討沒有做那麼深入的探討所以我只有三個部分都要統籌分配稅款一般性補助款還有計畫型補助款要看還有地方的財政開源能力地方的稅入也要看"},{"start":11800.239,"end":11823.225,"text":"如果要看地方的稅入或者稅出其實三年平均以後它會出現它的一個水準出來或者是稅出三年平均以後它會出現一個水準出來我們不要影響它的水準讓我們大家都能夠越來越好"},{"start":11825.358,"end":11853.857,"text":"我的意思就是說現在的確有出現這些問題了所以沒有達成我們希望說修了財務法之後能夠越來越好因為包含這些農業縣市的這些立委也提出不同的看法那當然修法的源頭還是在立法院因為不論這個公司的錯誤或是說未來有關這個財務法怎麼修修法的源頭還是要回到立法院來那當然行政院我也認為說要有自己的一個版本"},{"start":11855.337,"end":11883.443,"text":"這個件事情證明了說其實在野黨在財化法的修正上面我認為他沒有做好全盤的了解所以才造成說一個財化法衝突修完之後產生這麼多的問題所以我也建議說我們的財政部能夠提出一個比較完善的版本來修改讓財化法修完之後能夠對於這些城鄉的差距或是說這些城市還有非城市的農業縣市的一些"},{"start":11884.484,"end":11899.225,"text":"這個差距能夠越來越小啦我只是說沈計長站在這一個審計的一些角度上面不妨也給我們一些指導啦因為財務法是牽涉到很多人有的人大家都不太容易擺平所以都"},{"start":11900.046,"end":11918.111,"text":"要不行政院 為什麼要中央和地方要談很多次 大家好好談談出最適合我們整個台灣全體人民的一個方式大家不能說哪一個怎麼樣所以盡量來因為它是涉及"},{"start":11926.653,"end":11949.203,"text":"謝謝李坤城委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人陳審計長謝謝報告全員委員會我們今天針對被提名人陳瑞銘審計長詢答部分到此為止我們再一次謝謝被提名人審計長的列席答詢另外有關各黨團對被提名人所提書面問題及被提名人答覆之相關資料列入公報記錄"},{"start":11950.644,"end":11978.675,"text":"報全委委員會審議長被提名人資格以及是否私認相關事項已經審查完畢我們現在本案做以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決今天非常謝謝陳審計長列席也謝謝陳永康委員從頭到尾陪著我們一起來審查審計長的相關各種提名的答訊也謝謝李坤城委員我們現在全委會散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}