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我們來思考一下 往下看所以企業會怎麼做呢 因為地方這麼可以制定啊那比較嚴格的地區呢 可能產業或電廠他選擇搬到其他沒有家園的縣市那這個時候他轉移進入之後 那有可能成了什麼樣的結果其他縣市為了防堵他們跑過來 說我們也被迫家園 是不是這樣子呢有 現在有一個現象叫什麼 叫做企堵"},{"start":118.278,"end":125.563,"text":"氣土已經在造成這個情況了往下看好 那麼如果是空氣流動跟氣土不同如果就算是我在某個地"},{"start":126.502,"end":149.799,"text":"假地方成功禁止結果電廠移到隔壁那請問在我們台灣這個大氣的氣流是不是會再回來呢所以為什麼過去我們有關於這個空污的制定都是由環境部做全國一個包括總量的限制目的是要思考到氣候的因素單純的授權給地方政府能夠達到比較好的局部改善嗎我們來繼續往下討論"},{"start":151.46,"end":162.726,"text":"所以說如果A縣市加嚴結果跑到B縣市B縣市不動所以他們就跑到B縣市去了那B縣市有可能兩個做法一個是他被迫法規也加嚴另外一個他說什麼那我不加嚴我請你們來譬如說台積電大家喜歡台積電過去對不對那台積電現在它是耗電量的大電力用戶現在經濟部說這些大電力的用戶請你們自備發電"},{"start":176.994,"end":205.229,"text":"那這時候就遇到一個兩難了到底地方他為了要吸引特定的產業要不要接受在法規上容許他進來的一個籌碼其實這很可惜的空氣品質如果變成跟吸引產業的一個投資籌碼可是更嚴重的是什麼B縣市沒有加鹽他爭取到了結果空氣跑回哪裡跑回加鹽的A縣市"},{"start":206.309,"end":215.261,"text":"那個就是我們要思考一下立法能不能達到我們的目的我們的目的都是值得肯定的但是手段要怎麼做才能達到效果我們往下看"},{"start":216.024,"end":237.077,"text":"所以說今天一個火力電廠尤其是南梅的它被認為是高度的污染所以它是零幣設施所以所在的地點我們把它加嚴了有可能電廠就因此關門了但是如果說地方有電力的需求它在面對到發電設施又有電力需求的時候零幣設施它都不要那就會產生一個什麼補償的機制"},{"start":240.734,"end":264.275,"text":"如果地方只要電卻不要電廠那沒有補償的機制會造成什麼大家都要電可是沒有人要電廠那如果我不用電廠來講我講什麼我講垃圾焚化爐在我的所在屏東我們最早開始的一個垃圾焚化爐在A鄉好了為了這樣的方式那時候的環保署給了這個鄉一個設了環"},{"start":267.748,"end":278.161,"text":"垃圾焚化爐因為是處理全線的垃圾所以給它補償機制可是那時候忽略了這個補償機制剛才設立的時候煙囪很高啊所以那個箱很小啊"},{"start":279.338,"end":299.27,"text":"煙都跑到哪裡去 跑到其他縣市去啊現在縣市說 欸 在你那邊蓋 結果補償你拿但是我們受害 我們拿不到所以就算有補償機制 也要思考到這個補償機制能不能將這些環境成本怎麼樣的有效的做一些適合的平衡 再往下看"},{"start":299.93,"end":321.123,"text":"所以我們來看一下空污的排放法規它的影響是多面向如果目前我們授權給地方做寬延不一的標準行政資源不一樣啦會造成污染的避風港啦跨縣市營運的企業它就可以開始挪移啦然後呢還有會排擠了一些必要的基礎設施那考量到氣候因素電力調配跟產業佈局其實我個人認為整個空污法規還是要有一個全國一致穩定且科學的標準最後結論"},{"start":329.608,"end":354.14,"text":"就是說由於空氣污染物質難以透過人為的行政區的劃分去決定它的影響因此我們應該要建立穩定可預期的標準那這就應該要求環境部依根據科學證據來嚴格的制定那在考量到空氣品質產業發展跟能源需求的情況之下我們應該要有一個全國一致的規範"},{"start":355.18,"end":381.271,"text":"如果有不同的抉擇譬如說准許假地而不再已地那麼你這樣的補償機制也要建立而且在補償機制建立的時候也要注意到它的補償的效果的對應對價方式因此我在這裡我覺得剛剛我們今天在討論我們公聽會所說的這兩套的修法是否可以從這樣的原則來審視我想就我個人立場是非常的清楚以上就教於各位 謝謝"},{"start":383.482,"end":387.508,"text":"謝謝鄧家斌委員接下來請李全和律師"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}