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謝謝那個我剛才聽到前兩位委員對院長跟部長的質詢跟我的風格不一樣我等一下會講兩個笑話請院長跟部長要仔細聽這個我個人在"},{"start":65.523,"end":93.501,"text":"柯前主席他被搜索的時候我一直在懷疑搜索票憑什麼證據去申請到搜索票那後來柯主席被起訴以後我去看那個證據都是柯文主席被搜索以後取得的證據所以很顯然去搜索柯主席的時候"},{"start":94.745,"end":118.96,"text":"並沒有合理懷疑的證據那麼我要問一個公平性的問題也就是說我在擔任第八屆立委的時候有一件事情院長跟部長不知道有一天蘇政卿委員找了一個李恆隆董事長來找我那麼到我辦公室來"},{"start":120.936,"end":148.8,"text":"李恆隆董事長他拿一個判決書給我看他說委員我受到冤屈我所投資的太流被徐旭東增資結果那個增資是未照判決也已經確定結果現在徐旭東仍然是收購的董事長"},{"start":150.307,"end":176.289,"text":"希望我能夠替他伸冤我從事立法委員工作我兩個原則第一個公益我做第二個失意如果受委屈我服務但是你如果失意你要好要更好的對不起我沒有時間所以我跟李恆隆跟蘇貞謙委員就跟他報告說我在成大交公司法沒有錯這個公司法388條為什麼會採"},{"start":180.708,"end":206.417,"text":"實質審查那為什麼我們經濟部會用刑事審查我把這個條文從德國法怎麼樣到日本法那日本的行政官因為不像德國有登記法官所以他沒辦法實質審查只能用刑事審查而我國經濟部也就是採日本刑事審查的制度因為現在公司的登記案件太多那我個人只要是法律問題"},{"start":207.642,"end":234.75,"text":"你來跟我討論我絕對提供服務因為你也是算我的選民那麼那一年第八屆立委的時候大概我記得是過年的期間我收到了施政卿委員送來了一箱屏東黑珍珠的蓮霧我黑珍珠的蓮霧吃完以後覺得非常好吃我整個箱子翻遍了"},{"start":236.065,"end":264.879,"text":"幾乎翻透底了裡面沒有錢裡面沒有錢所以院長你也知道要笑後來到第九屆立委的時候徐永明陳唐山幾個委員被收手就是泰劉的案件因為涉嫌去施壓經濟部要來修改要來改變"},{"start":266.277,"end":293.954,"text":"徐濟松董事長的名稱那這件事情我那時候才說原來我當時吃了那一箱黑珍之靈物是叫做自有的滋味我如果收到幾萬塊我下次就是被收手但是各位陳唐山被收手後來沒做一碼沒起訴那麼徐永明也被收手但是各位你看當時"},{"start":295.851,"end":322.493,"text":"李恆隆在北極組的詢問筆錄這個筆錄怎麼流出來我不知道網路上可以找得到但是非法律人讀不懂那我讀懂了他裡面提到三次台南市長黃偉哲剛當選第一次講說大咖的黃偉哲然後第二次"},{"start":324.194,"end":349.059,"text":"講到黃偉哲包括蘇政卿所以蘇政卿是被包括的黃偉哲是在蘇政卿之前黃偉哲包括蘇政卿在跑就是跑這一條然後第三次講到黃偉哲收他一百萬我當時沒有立法委員的身份我開記者會把這個事實打出來我認為這個應該要調查"},{"start":352.315,"end":375.608,"text":"到現在也沒有人跟我起訴說我誣告說我誣賴他沒有我現在有言論免責權我今天要來請教院長柯文哲主席沒有證據就被搜索而黃偉哲的證據這麼的明確卻沒有搜索這樣公平嗎我們執法這樣公平嗎在這裡"},{"start":382.864,"end":410.91,"text":"照道理講不應該談論一個個案的內容委員談的那幾個事情那對牽扯到的多位的當事人現在都還在社會上會受到公平那如果真的有事證那應該委員可以循政堂的管道我知道院長會這麼打我所以我行非上樑不正下樑歪這個不是因為上樑不正下樑歪這是因為我們"},{"start":412.031,"end":438.269,"text":"身為總統行政院長普辭為經舉足為法均忍者倒名以正軌不軌無誤不軌不誤百官相知所以檢察官會在個案兩個個案這樣不公平的處理那表示是這上面的問題所以我們必須要倒名以正軌"},{"start":439.42,"end":466.257,"text":"所以我今天來這裡質詢檢察官的作為並不是上面的問題現在檢察官都是獨立在偵辦案件他有發現真實的這個責任的權利我也知道院長會講這個問題等一下我們會講檢查議題的問題檢查議題的問題那是人事司法上的行政的議題那不是辦案間間司法的議題這兩個案子很顯然在處理上非常不公平沒有證據卻搜索"},{"start":468.005,"end":493.65,"text":"這麼明確證據卻沒有搜索所以這個對國人而言沒辦法接受委員這個個案的一個問題我們是尊重辦案單位跟法院的一個決定而且這個檢察官要申請搜索這必須經過法院的一個審核是沒錯那我們不是承辦人我對兩個個案我也不是那麼清楚這些個案的裡面證據法官審酌的一個標準"},{"start":495.63,"end":517.521,"text":"不過我相信因為個案也不能夠比較沒有說A案跟B案是一樣沒有同相同的案例而且每個案件的案情案情也不同證據的法案不同然後這沒辦法去做A案跟B案的一個做一個比較而且這個最重要就是有經過法院的一個審核"},{"start":518.001,"end":523.008,"text":"我知道 但是你們要申請搜索票你要申請搜索票所以這個不是說哪一個單位 辦案單位獨端這個是經過法院的一個審核要申請搜索票要我回法議不是嗎"},{"start":530.47,"end":550.587,"text":"所以這個法院我們相信法院的一個公正依照法律的確信然後針對個案來做一個具體的一個核票的我想這就是一個制衡的一個作用我想委員你是老師你也是法律學老師我想你對這案件很清楚每個個案都不同而且你說個案跟通例我想我們是在講"},{"start":551.627,"end":580.408,"text":"討論通案通例的事情我們討論那個理論的問題我們不要去討論個案因為個案我們不是承辦人我們沒辦法就個案的表示這是一個制度性的公平性的問題所以個案個案的不是一個如果從個案的個案裡面去討出一個通案一個通則那我們可以來討論那表示說這個在通則上我們法務部在這裡有檢查議題的問題等一下我會談那麼兩位都是我法學的前輩我雖然頭髮比各位白"},{"start":581.987,"end":607.578,"text":"我頭髮這麼白各位如果看我第八屆立委進來的時候我的頭髮是黑色的我當兩年立委以後頭髮變白我第一次進立法院就碰到會計法修正案我一個人擋這個會計法修正案後來我們同仁有被判刑三年六個月入獄"},{"start":608.277,"end":637.78,"text":"是因為我一個人擋下來我為什麼這麼堅持法律各位我要講第二個笑話我不可能在非法律系之人之前的前面讓我們法律人來丟臉因為我受恩於法律人對我的照顧我自己是台大政治系國際關係組畢業我本來是想要當顧維鈞、蔣廷甫這種外交官但是我去"},{"start":638.854,"end":654.274,"text":"考外交特考的時候,別人是不去考,叫做逃兵我是被外交部以國文不及格,不予入局所以我也是逃兵,只是我的逃是被淘汰的逃"},{"start":655.461,"end":681.17,"text":"所以我對法律人有一份很深的感情對法律有非常執著的這個厚愛所以我絕對不會去為了要來羞辱各位或是今天為了上媒體來講一些不公平的話偵查真的要公平不然你沒辦法服眾那麼剛才兩位長輩提到通案的問題"},{"start":682.557,"end":711.824,"text":"各位這個就是檢查一體的問題因為院長您要做答覆我已經預測到所以我的手板也不是剛才做檢查一體的問題我要來質詢大概部長院長會答什麼話我大概有一個預測檢查一體的問題我們必須要有一個檢查總長全國指揮調度相同的標準檢查總長對我們國家的司法制度的重要性"},{"start":712.813,"end":738.97,"text":"不可一日或缺 我們都瞭解但是他是獨任制跟NCC委員 跟公平衛委員跟我們的其他的委員以及考試院 監察院其他的不需不是行政院體系的他們不同在於檢察總長他的人事權"},{"start":740.506,"end":740.706,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":766.089,"end":769.412,"text":"您的答案也被我抓到了這個是儲物規則的內部的行政規則對外沒有效力的"},{"start":788.379,"end":809.258,"text":"也就是說 不適合總統去用這個條文這個條文不適合總統不能根據這個條文而且這個是跟委員報告這是循例辦理的沒有 這個循例你一循例我們立法院被架空了不是嗎沒有 這個以前檢察總長有出缺有循例辦理這個在2010年的時候"},{"start":813.112,"end":819.9,"text":"當時候的總長陳聰明見到總長他辭職所以就代理有曾永夫跟林協德"},{"start":824.028,"end":849.341,"text":"主任檢察官兩個代理中長這個他們的代理的時候的法定的職權全部都是運作如常那另外還有在2014年檢察中長也出缺也是由臨接的主任檢察來代理那在提了非常上述也提了50幾件所以前後總共提了100多件這個他的職權的一個行使都經過最高法院的肯認"},{"start":850.752,"end":862.503,"text":"而且這個事實在馬前總統他那時候指定的曾永福跟林協哲主任檢察來代理我們這次代理是循例辦理部長這是惡例"},{"start":863.755,"end":882.586,"text":"也就是說要被推翻的權利不能夠再繼續因為我們根據法院組織法一定要指定代理沒有代理沒辦法最高檢察署沒辦法運作我們人民的訴訟權委員你是法律專家我們人民的訴訟權我們人民的權利要擺在最前列我完全清楚"},{"start":883.366,"end":909.012,"text":"這才是最重要的憲法是規定民眾的人民的國民的訴訟權要接受要保障所以呢我們來指定這個代理人來進行最高檢察總長來檢察總長的職權這個是非常合理的我想不管是哪一個政黨不在這種情形都是會指定代理來執行這些檢察總長的職權部長說的這個就是重點人民的權利一日沒有檢察總長"},{"start":910.6,"end":912.201,"text":"我們法院組織法第66條四項檢查總長如果出缺不能試試"},{"start":941.216,"end":966.137,"text":"這時候總統應該要三個月內提名人選到立法院來尋求通過所以我們66條沒有明文的禁止這個指定代理人但是也沒有明文的同意所以我就從法理上來請教兩位如果沒有經過我們同意"},{"start":967.301,"end":983.464,"text":"就可以長期的代理我們才代理一個禮拜之前之前的有過很久的那這個時候所以部長你覺得也不能夠太久對不對所以一個禮拜是不能太久嗎沒有 現在"},{"start":985.134,"end":1002.521,"text":"委員在講說大概太久我跟委員講說目前是5月8號才開始代理現在是5月今天是5月15號嘛再代理一個禮拜那我跟你講委員你提到說法院組織法66條第二項是因故出缺或無法適時的情形那是一個情形"},{"start":1003.041,"end":1020.507,"text":"那這個有沒有包括認滿結束因為人事同意簽沒有通過只有這樣我想這是以理委員你的法律上的一個高度跟你的學問我相信你可以知道這是不是一個法律上這是沒有規定的所以這部分我們是可以來研究"},{"start":1021.207,"end":1042.435,"text":"但是我相信你用一個禮拜這個要再討論這個問題我認為是所以我剛才講說一日或缺您的答案我已經預估到你會這麼講我想這個答案這個答案你大概會清楚因為我相信法律上沒有這麼明文的規定他代理的多久你能不能給我一個多餘的我也希望大院能夠同意"},{"start":1044.056,"end":1060.629,"text":"能夠審核同意的是因為徐代理長總長他的我們那時候有這個提名他是在我們檢查業界是非常的生育非常好的他的專業能力他的品質超熟他的學歷經歷他是非常的一個傑出的所以我必須要做一個謝謝委員給我這個機會做一個說明"},{"start":1062.503,"end":1086.285,"text":"我也請委員理解一件事情包括NCC跟中選會的委員行政院也提出了人選被否決的大部分被否決所以我剛剛說我在檢討的是這些人為什麼被否決我要提出跟他們完全不一樣的人才有可能不被否決啊現在我要提出一個跟他不一樣的人我要去找這些跟他完全不一樣的人背景、學歷、經歷我是不考慮他們的政黨立場的"},{"start":1087.466,"end":1095.118,"text":"但是來到立法院在審查的時候是用政黨立場在考慮他我必須要做很多的考量這是行政院的苦我的困難在這裡"},{"start":1096.877,"end":1126.219,"text":"所以我們在檢查總長部長有沒有辦法承諾一個時間提名的兩次全部都否決掉我相信提名大法官的這些人選我想老師也那個委員你都認識了你們滿多認識的我想他們的學問他們的風評他們在業界裡面的一種的崇高的地位我相信以委員你在法學上的一種的一個長久的觀察跟相處我相信你應該很清楚但是都是很可惜"},{"start":1127.68,"end":1140.153,"text":"如果部長您稍微提到大法官的人選我可以跟您保證裡面有幾個非常不適當那我不想去講重情形我們回到這個政府以來因為他願意要審核"},{"start":1150.996,"end":1175.943,"text":"完美化大院的一個省院長跟部長能不能給本席一個承諾我們徐總長他代理時間大概要多久這個總長的人選的提出是總統府方作業那部長 法律規定三個月部長跟行政院我們如果能夠善盡到提醒我們會提醒但是這個是府方作業法律規定"},{"start":1177.335,"end":1184.036,"text":"第四項規定總統必須三個月內提出人選經立法院通過所以是不是代理期間我們三個月就好"},{"start":1185.165,"end":1214.154,"text":"法律是如此規定我想大家都清楚法律是規定說總統三個月內這個這個法律上的一個問題這是因故出缺或無法實施譬如我舉例就譬如說因為他正好辭職就像以前的錢裡有辭職的或者是無法實施的情況譬如說他他是不是有某些的事情部長你花園沒有時間限制我花園有時間限制但是我提供一個解釋那這一件的話是一個認滿認滿不是因故出缺他是認滿你能不能承諾三個月內"},{"start":1215.595,"end":1243.217,"text":"代理期間三個月內法律的規定大家都清楚那規定那個太陽太陽我覺得剛剛部長有說過了是初缺還是六滿是不一樣的是太陽是不一樣的總統要三個月內提名結果代理超過三個月合理嗎那三個月就是我們認為總統應該在三個月內找出適當的人選然後這段期間代理不是嗎"},{"start":1244.858,"end":1272.453,"text":"一定是這樣的法律那個法律是這樣能夠做到被提名來當檢察總長在法界現在服務的人也是寥寥可數那我們把最好的人選提出來卻用一種到現在大家還不是很清楚的理由就被否決掉所以我想總統跟我一樣都陷入到這種苦思我們要怎麼提下一個人中興大學的老師的書籍我都讀所以您在這麼好的教育環境之下受到"},{"start":1274.044,"end":1299.781,"text":"賴總統非常肯定我相信您跟他做個報告總統應該會同意三個月可以不可以我說剛剛說過這個剛剛部長說過這個太陽不一樣但法律的規定是清楚的但太陽不一樣那我們會跟總統提醒討論這個事情這沒有錯好謝謝那這樣的話我第三題因為我們都是法律人"},{"start":1301.206,"end":1330.569,"text":"我提出的問題都是法律問題那兩位也比較容易回答也就是我們這個不附屬的問題不附屬根據我們中華民國憲法這個附屬權在37條總統要行政院長附屬才能夠公布法律那麼我們在原來的徵修條文之前的就57條是規定說如果"},{"start":1332.116,"end":1360.509,"text":"這個互譯沒有通過要辭職或應急接受那我們徵修條文第三條只有應急接受省去辭職兩個字那我在學習法學我一直覺得要來了解他所以今天剛好有院長跟部長都是法學界的前輩我來請教兩位也就是說不附屬不附屬他"},{"start":1362.1,"end":1388.249,"text":"變成我們的法律就這樣可以不公布那立法院代表全國人民是民意的表徵那變成只有一兩個人一個人不附屬一個人不公布全國兩千三百萬的同胞所選的立法委員所通過的法律案那就不能實施這樣是一個民主的方式嗎"},{"start":1389.537,"end":1405.866,"text":"我常常說過包括提出復議或者不附屬就行政院的立場來講都是被動的在過去行政院長畢竟立法院同意的那個時代憲法的規定跟現在是不一樣的所以現在把同意權拿掉之後所以賦予行政院長"},{"start":1407.407,"end":1434.084,"text":"對於賦予之後他要接受他就沒有其他的選項但是憲法這一個37條他所說的不附屬在修正條憲法修正的時候並沒有被拿掉留下來就必定有他憲法的作用而不是形同句文就是給行政院長若是立法院通過的是一個違反憲法的"},{"start":1435.026,"end":1461.154,"text":"是一個危害國家安全的破壞財政紀律的不經過民主程序討論的行政院長就有這個權利這個權利不是在制衡總統的總統跟行政院長在經過立法院同意之後的院長沒有所謂制衡的問題院長很顯然你提到這一點違反了三權分立立法 司法 行政"},{"start":1461.454,"end":1485.159,"text":"就是立法院違反三權婚禮侵犯行政權沒有啦 行政權不可以壓迫立法權但立法院可以替行政權編預算嗎我沒有這個法律案違憲的問題啊這個可以申請釋憲 那是司法權那麼行政院要不要附屬這是行政權本院要不要立法是立法權立法不能來侵犯行政權啊"},{"start":1485.933,"end":1511.463,"text":"沒有啦這個是這樣啦如果有沒有違憲要請大法官會議解釋大法官被逼到很長一段時間不能作業啊所以院長這都是精心設計啊美國的聯邦最高法院那美國的國會山莊美國的白宮它有兩條路相連一條叫做憲法大道一條叫做獨立大道這個憲法大道"},{"start":1512.833,"end":1527.924,"text":"走到盡頭你會看到美國司法部前面一顆碑文Where law ends, tyranny begins當你不遵守法律的時候獨裁就會開始委員我有點我實在是覺得遺憾如果委員能夠在前兩年都進來"},{"start":1528.945,"end":1556.857,"text":"大概貴黨黨團不會做出這樣的決定因為你的法學素養跟他們是截然不同的沒有沒有沒有這此言差矣我覺得是這樣子你必須勇敢承認這是我們對你的尊敬術業有專攻我是外交的逃兵我今天受惠於法律人讓我讀政法法律人的尊嚴當行政權被侵犯的時候如果行政院一點自保的能力都沒有那五權憲法形同虛設"},{"start":1557.817,"end":1581.372,"text":"所以你不覺得今天兩位對我的講話聲音比較大一點我的聲音反而比較溫和這不是大聲的問題這是要讓你清楚我們對你的肯定是如果前兩年你在大概不會做成這樣的結果辭職或應急接受那我們現在徵求條文沒有辭職兩個字那到底我們法律是要我們來怎麼處理呢也就是說你應急接受"},{"start":1582.52,"end":1609.524,"text":"沒有辭職的選項到底徵求條文是要我們來處理當時如果不接受辭職現在是用什麼方式呢我個人的初期的看法是這樣也就是說你如果是沒有經過互譽的法律案你不附屬這個時候你是違反這個沒有違反憲法的要求沒有明文"},{"start":1610.322,"end":1636.216,"text":"但是你使得總統沒辦法去公布法律所以總統是應該對你行政免職但是如果你是經過法律案附屬沒有通過的這種情形根據我們現在徵修條文第三條變成第三條要求應急接受行政院長應急接受就是要附屬"},{"start":1637.352,"end":1659.675,"text":"那你不附屬就是違反徵求條文第三條復譽之後被否決的沒有不附屬復譽之後被否決的我們接受但是我同時可以提出釋憲但大法官這條路被擋住了所以好幾次已經八次的復譽沒有成功因為院長您在財政修正法徵法是因為復譽失敗就沒有附屬"},{"start":1660.812,"end":1688.153,"text":"副議失敗對 副議失敗接受但我們可以提出大法官的解釋但是大法官這個正常的運作被長時間的停止所以八次的副議都失敗到最後逼不得已我們在想說如何確保行政權到底憲法規定的行政院編滅預算 立法院議決預算這樣的權限能不能劃得很清楚院長我的理解是這樣副議失敗的"},{"start":1690.779,"end":1711.977,"text":"不附屬這個時候會變成你違反憲法第三條呼籲失敗不附屬沒有這樣狀況憲法徵求條文第三條它要求呼籲失敗應急接受應急接受就是附屬你不附屬就是違反應急接受的憲法接受以後我們是另外提出釋憲"},{"start":1715.025,"end":1723.07,"text":"我不附屬的就沒有提出復議沒有先復議再不接受視線必須要公布以後才可以視線法律還沒有公布還不能視線我個人的解讀"},{"start":1727.539,"end":1755.842,"text":"當一個行政院長違反憲法徵修條文的時候他其實是違反公務人員服務法第一條遵守法定的義務以及23條要說工程法公務人員懲戒法第九條這個叫做司法免職這個叫做司法免職跟剛才行政免職不一樣也就是說一個行政院長他沒有遵守憲法應急先措然後不附屬的"},{"start":1756.874,"end":1763.316,"text":"一個法律 憲法要求這個會變成公務員人懲戒法懲戒之後是不是要送監察院是要送監察院要不要送監察院"},{"start":1770.936,"end":1798.535,"text":"因為院長是檢查用的路也被你們擋死啦行政院長是領有信奉的公務人員所以他適用公務人員懲戒法跟公務人員服務法因為您領有信奉我另外一個疑案是過去兩年委員不在就這幾個案件我們可以私下一一跟委員來對附屬的 不附屬的 附議的 不附議的是怎麼樣的一個狀況我可以私下跟委員請教這是我個人研究出來的答案不是助理寫的所以"},{"start":1800.028,"end":1816.716,"text":"這個應該是司法免職為什麼我們昨天會要去彈劾賴總統就是因為他沒有對行政院長司法免職所以才會提出一個彈劾案你們要彈劾總統罪名可以隨便你們安沒有一條成立的"},{"start":1817.817,"end":1845.746,"text":"這是這樣啦 院長 我們真的是一個法治國家是誰在破壞憲政體制常治久安至於法律有沒有違憲 這個要大法官會解釋大法官就被你們擋死啦監察院也被你們刪減預算啦行政院也被你們侵害啦只有立法好"},{"start":1848.535,"end":1873.574,"text":"謝謝徐委員法院會司法及法治組織質詢已詢答完畢謝謝左院長及相關部會首長列席答詢現做以下決定下次會議進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢另外5月19日星期二上午實施"},{"start":1874.87,"end":1875.593,"text":"實時繼續開會進行總統談的案事項現在休息"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:20.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:21.020000+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:21.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:22.380000+08:00","text":"有請卓院長跟鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:22.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:22.701000+08:00","text":"請卓院長、鄭部長備詢。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:22.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:35.803000+08:00","text":"許委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:35.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:35.803000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:36.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:27:41.487000+08:00","text":"恭喜許委員，我很珍惜跟您在這裡對話，我們一起來討論國家的大事，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:27:42.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:28:01.020000+08:00","text":"我剛才聽了前兩位委員對院長跟部長的質詢，跟我的風格不一樣，我等一下會講兩個笑話，請院長跟部長要仔細聽。好。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:28:01.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:28:38.468000+08:00","text":"我個人在柯前主席被搜索的時候，就一直在懷疑是憑什麼證據去聲請到搜索票的，後來柯主席被起訴以後，我去看那些證據，都是柯主席被搜索以後取得的證據，所以很顯然去搜索柯主席的時候，並沒有合理懷疑的證據。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:28:38.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:29:28.800000+08:00","text":"我要問一個公平性的問題，也就是說，我在擔任第8屆立委的時候，有一件事情院長跟部長不知道，有一天，蘇震清委員找了李恆隆董事長來找我，到我的辦公室，李恆隆董事長拿了一個判決書給我看，他說：委員，我受到冤屈，我所投資的太流被徐旭東增資，結果那個增資是偽造的，判決也已經確定了，結果徐旭東仍然是SOGO的董事長。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:29:30.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:29:32.049000+08:00","text":"他希望我能夠替他申冤。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:29:33.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:29:46.401000+08:00","text":"我從事立法委員工作有兩個原則：第一個是公益，我做；第二個是私益如果受委屈，我服務，但如果是私益但卻想要好還要更好的，對不起，我沒有時間。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:29:46.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:30:00.708000+08:00","text":"所以我跟李恆隆及蘇震清委員報告說，我在成大教公司法沒有錯，公司法第三百八十八條為什麼會採實質審查？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:30:01.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:30:04.289000+08:00","text":"那為什麼我們經濟部會用形式審查？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:30:05.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:30:23.996000+08:00","text":"我把這個條文從德國法怎麼樣到日本法，那日本的行政官因為不像德國有登記法官，所以他沒辦法實質審查，只能用形式審查，而我國經濟部也就是採日本形式審查的制度，因為現在公司的登記案件太多。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:30:25.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:30:32.083000+08:00","text":"我個人只要是法律問題，你來跟我討論，我絕對提供服務，因為你也是算我的選民。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:30:33.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:30:45.567000+08:00","text":"那一年第8屆立委的時候，我記得大概是過年的期間，我收到了蘇震清委員送來了一箱屏東的黑珍珠蓮霧。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:30:47.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:31:00.647000+08:00","text":"黑珍珠蓮霧我吃完以後覺得非常好吃，我整個箱子翻遍了，幾乎翻透底了，裡面沒有錢。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:31:00.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:31:04.449000+08:00","text":"裡面沒有錢，所以院長你也知道要笑喔。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:31:04.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:31:28.719000+08:00","text":"後來到第9屆立委的時候，徐永明、陳唐山幾個委員被搜索，就是太流的案件，因為涉嫌去施壓經濟部要修改，要改變徐旭東董事長的名稱。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:31:28.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:31:41.947000+08:00","text":"這件事情發生後，我那時候才說，喔，原來我當時吃的那一箱黑珍珠蓮霧是叫做「自由的滋味」，我如果收到幾萬塊，我下次就是被搜索了。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:31:43.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:32:07.461000+08:00","text":"但是各位，陳唐山被搜索，後來沒罪也沒起訴，徐永明也被搜索，但是各位，你看當時李恆隆在北機組的訊問筆錄，這個筆錄怎麼流出來我不知道，網路上可以找得到，但是非法律人讀不懂，那我讀懂了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:32:08.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:32:43.838000+08:00","text":"筆錄裡面提到三次剛當選的臺南市長黃偉哲，第一次講說大咖的黃偉哲；然後第二次講到黃偉哲包括蘇震清，所以蘇震清是被包括的，黃偉哲是在蘇震清之前，黃偉哲包括蘇震清在跑就是跑這一條；然後第三次講到黃偉哲收他100萬。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:32:43.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:32:59.399000+08:00","text":"我當時沒有立法委員的身分，我開記者會把這個事實打出來，我認為這個應該要調查，到現在也沒有人在跟我起訴說我誣告、說我誣賴他，沒有！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:00.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:14.907000+08:00","text":"我現在有言論免責權，我今天要來請教院長，柯文哲主席沒有證據就被搜索，而黃偉哲的證據這麼明確卻沒有搜索，這樣公平嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:14.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:15.588000+08:00","text":"我們的執法這樣公平嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:15.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:34.466000+08:00","text":"抱歉，委員，我們在這裡，照道理講，不應該談論一個個案的內容，而且委員談的那幾件事情牽扯到的多位當事人，現在都還在社會上，會受到公評……","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:34.466000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:36.327000+08:00","text":"院長，這是公平性的問題，這是公平性……","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:36.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:39.848000+08:00","text":"如果真的有事證，那應該委員可以循正常的管道……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:40.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:33:47.789000+08:00","text":"我知道院長會這麼回答我，所以我的簡報已經寫明這個並非「上樑不正下樑歪」，這個不是因為上樑不正下樑歪。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:33:49.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:21.561000+08:00","text":"這是因為我們身為總統、行政院長，「吐辭為經舉足為法，君人者導民以正軌，不軌不物百官象之」，所以檢察官會在兩個個案這樣不公平的處理，那表示這是上面的問題，所以我們必須要導民以正軌，所以我今天來這裡質詢。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:21.561000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:22.561000+08:00","text":"院長，您的答案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:21.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:29.707000+08:00","text":"檢察官的作為並不是上面的問題，現在檢察官都是獨立在偵辦案件，他有發現真實的責任跟權力。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:29.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:35.410000+08:00","text":"我也知道院長會講這個問題，等一下我們會講檢察一體的問題，檢察一體的問題……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:35.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:41.594000+08:00","text":"那是人事司法上的行政的議題，那不是辦案間接司法的議題。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:41.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:34:54.046000+08:00","text":"這兩個案子很顯然在處理上非常不公平，一個沒有證據卻搜索，另一個這麼明確的證據卻沒有搜索，所以這個對國人而言沒辦法接受。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:34:54.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:05.348000+08:00","text":"委員，這個個案的問題，我們是尊重辦案單位跟法院的決定，而且檢察官要聲請搜索，這必須經過法院的審核。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:05.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:06.408000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:06.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:13.310000+08:00","text":"我們不是承辦人，對於兩個個案，我也不是那麼清楚這些個案裡面的證據、法官審酌的標準。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:13.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:15.630000+08:00","text":"所以這表示這是一個制度性的問題。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:15.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:37.501000+08:00","text":"不過我相信……因為個案也不能夠比較，沒有說A案跟B案是一樣的，沒有相同的案例，而且每個案件的案情也不同、證據不同，沒辦法去做A案跟B案的比較，而且這個最重要就是有經過法院的審核。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:38.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:38.942000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是你們要聲請搜索票……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:38.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:39.942000+08:00","text":"因為委員你也是法律的專家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:38.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:39.223000+08:00","text":"你要聲請搜索票……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:39.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:41.145000+08:00","text":"所以這個不是說哪一個單位辦案獨斷，這個是經過法院的審核。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:41.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:35:43.008000+08:00","text":"要聲請搜索票要有合理懷疑，不是嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:35:50.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:02.280000+08:00","text":"尊重法院……所以我們相信法院的公正，依照法律的確信，然後針對個案來做一個具體的核票的……我想這就是一個制衡的作用。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:03.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:18.512000+08:00","text":"委員你是老師、你是法律系的老師，我想你應該很清楚，每個個案都不同，而且你說個案跟通例，我想我們是在討論通案、通例的事情，我們討論那個理論的問題，我們不要去討論個案，因為個案，我們不是承辦人，我沒辦法就個案的……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:19.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:21.234000+08:00","text":"這是一個制度性、公平性的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:21.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:27.739000+08:00","text":"所以個案不是一個……如果從個案裡面去討論出一個通案、一個通則，那我們可以來討論。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:27.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:37.145000+08:00","text":"那表示說在通則上，我們法務部在這裡有檢察一體的問題，等一下我會談。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:37.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:40.388000+08:00","text":"兩位都是我法學的前輩，我雖然頭髮比各位白。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:40.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:41.987000+08:00","text":"不敢、不敢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:41.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:36:50.571000+08:00","text":"我頭髮這麼白，各位如果看我第8屆立委進來的時候，我的頭髮是黑色的，我當兩年立委以後頭髮變白。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:36:51.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:37:10.499000+08:00","text":"我第一次進立法院就碰到會計法修正案，我一個人擋這個會計法修正案，後來我們同仁有被判刑3年6個月入獄，是因為我一個人擋下來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:37:10.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:37:12.500000+08:00","text":"我為什麼這麼堅持法律？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:37:13.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:38:11.887000+08:00","text":"各位，我要講第二個笑話，我不可能在非法律系之人的前面，讓我們法律人來丟臉，因為我受恩於法律人對我的照顧，我自己是臺大政治系國際關係組畢業，我本來是想要當顧維鈞、蔣廷黻這種外交官，但是我去考外交特考的時候，別人是不去考叫做逃兵，我是被外交部以國文不及格不予錄取，所以我也是「淘兵」，只是我的「淘」是被淘汰的「淘」，所以我對法律人有一份很深的感情，對法律有非常執著的厚愛，所以我絕對不會為了要羞辱各位，或是今天為了上媒體來講一些不公平的話。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:38:11.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:38:16.468000+08:00","text":"偵查真的要公平，不然你沒辦法服眾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:38:17.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:38:40.101000+08:00","text":"剛才兩位長輩提到通案的問題，各位，這個就是檢察一體的問題，因為院長您要做的答復，我已經預測到，所以我的手板也不是剛才做的，檢察一體的問題，我要來質詢，部長、院長會答什麼話，我大概有一個預測。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:38:40.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:39:18.950000+08:00","text":"關於檢察一體的問題，我們必須要有一個檢察總長全國指揮調度、相同的標準，檢察總長對我們國家司法制度的重要性不可一日或缺，我們都了解，他是獨任制，跟NCC委員、跟公平會委員、跟我們其他的委員，以及考試院、監察院、其他不是行政院體系的，他們不同在於檢察總長的人事權如果經過本院、立法院加以否決，這個人還適合來代理檢察總長嗎？","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:39:18.950000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:39:27.996333+08:00","text":"也就是我們的徐總長、現在的徐檢察總長，現在他的代理這樣合理嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:39:27.996333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:39:37.042667+08:00","text":"他會不會架空立法院的人事同意權？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:39:37.042667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:39:46.089000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，當然很可惜總長人選沒有經過大院的同意，但是現在代理的他是以最高檢察署主任檢察官的身分代理。","quality":0.104},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:39:46.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:39:49.392000+08:00","text":"您的答案也被我抓到了，這個是處務規程的內部行政規則，對外沒有效力的。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:08.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:12.142000+08:00","text":"也就是說，不適合總統用這個條文……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:12.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:13.404000+08:00","text":"這個代理有報請總統指定代理人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:13.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:16.446000+08:00","text":"這個條文不適合……總統不能根據這個條文。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:17.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:20.150000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，而且這是循例辦理的！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:20.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:21.671000+08:00","text":"沒有，這個循例……循例！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:22.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:24.454000+08:00","text":"你一循例，我們立法院被架空了，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:24.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:40:51.252000+08:00","text":"沒有，以前檢察總長出缺有循例辦理，在2010年，當時候的檢察總長陳聰明檢察總長辭職，所以就有曾勇夫和林偕得主任檢察官兩位代理總長，他們代理時候的法定職權全部都是運作如常。部長……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:40:52.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:41:20.141000+08:00","text":"另外還有在2014年檢察總長也出缺，也是由林偕得主任檢察官代理，也提了五十幾件非常上訴，所以前後總共提了一百多件，他的職權行使都經過最高法院的肯認，而且這是在馬前總統那時候指定的曾勇夫和林偕得主任檢察官代理，我們這次的代理是循例辦理！","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:41:21.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:41:29.458000+08:00","text":"部長，這是惡例，也就是要被推翻的前例，不能夠再繼續，因為我們根據法院組織法……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:41:29.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:41:41.685000+08:00","text":"一定要指定代理，沒有代理，最高檢察署沒辦法運作，我們人民的訴訟權……委員，你是法律專家，我們人民的訴訟權、我們人民的權利要擺在最前面……","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:41:42.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:41:42.566000+08:00","text":"我完全清楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:41:43.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:41:58.049000+08:00","text":"這才是最重要的，憲法是規定人民的訴訟權要保障，所以我們指定代理人踐行最高檢察總長的職權，這個是非常合理的！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:41:58.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:04.711000+08:00","text":"我想不管是哪一個政黨碰到這種情形，都是會指定代理來執行這些檢察總長的職權。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:04.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:09.012000+08:00","text":"部長說的這個就是重點，人民的權利一日沒有檢察總長，非常上訴要怎麼提？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:09.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:10.012000+08:00","text":"這是人民的基本權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:10.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:11.012000+08:00","text":"我剛才也講過，檢察總長不可一日或缺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:11.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:12.012000+08:00","text":"我們心中要有人民，人民的訴訟權是非常重要的！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:12.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:13.012000+08:00","text":"所以上次代理期間就有提起一百多件非常上訴案件，我相信徐代理檢察總長會踐行檢察總長的職權為人民服務！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:42:10.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:42:59.111000+08:00","text":"我們的法院組織法第六十六條第四項，檢察總長如果出缺不能視事，這時候總統應該要三個月內提名人選到立法院尋求通過，所以第六十六條並沒有明文禁止指定代理人，但是也沒有明文同意。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:00.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:08.983000+08:00","text":"所以我就從法理上來請教兩位，如果沒有經過我們同意就可以長期的代理……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:09.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:12.388000+08:00","text":"我們才代理一個禮拜。之前！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:13.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:15.312000+08:00","text":"之前有過很久的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:18.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:20.379000+08:00","text":"部長你覺得也不能夠太久，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:20.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:23.163000+08:00","text":"所以一個禮拜是不能太久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:25.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:33.797000+08:00","text":"委員說代理太久，我是跟委員說是5月8號才開始代理，今天是5月15號，所以才代理了一個禮拜。部長……","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:35.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:43:47.262000+08:00","text":"委員提到法院組織法第六十六條第二項是因故出缺或無法視事的情形，那是一個情形，而這個有沒有包括任滿結束因為人事同意權沒有通過？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:43:47.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:06.189000+08:00","text":"是有這樣，我想以委員你法律上的高度跟你的學問，我相信你可以知道這是不是一個法律上……這是沒有規定的，所以這個我們可以研究，但是我相信你用一個禮拜就要討論這個問題，我認為是……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:06.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:12.892000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才說不可一日或缺，而您的答案我已經預估到你會這麼講！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:12.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:18.974000+08:00","text":"我想這個答案你當然清楚，我相信法律上沒有這麼明文規定他可以代理多久……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:19.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:20.795000+08:00","text":"部長，你能不能給國人一個……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:21.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:35.925000+08:00","text":"我也希望大院能夠審核同意人事案，我們提名徐代理長檢察總長是因為他在我們檢察業界的聲譽非常好，他的專業能力、他的品格操守、他的學歷經歷……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:35.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:36.925000+08:00","text":"部長，我對您講話是非常客氣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:35.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:40.609000+08:00","text":"他是非常傑出的，所以我必須要做一個……謝謝委員給我這個機會做一個說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:42.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:54.014000+08:00","text":"我也請委員理解一件事情，包括NCC跟中選會的委員，行政院也提出了人選，大部分都被否決了，所以我剛剛說我在檢討的是這些人為什麼被否決？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:54.014000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:55.014000+08:00","text":"本院都有實質審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:54.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:44:57.977000+08:00","text":"我要提出跟他們完全不一樣的人才有可能不被否決啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:44:58.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:15.118000+08:00","text":"現在我要提出一個跟他不一樣的人，要去找背景、學歷、經歷跟他完全不一樣的人，我是不考慮他們的政黨立場，但是來到立法院審查的時候，是用政黨立場在考慮他，我必須要做很多的考量，這是行政院的苦，我的困難在這裡。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:16.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:21.621000+08:00","text":"所以我們在檢察總長……部長有沒有辦法承諾一件事情？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:22.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:23.962000+08:00","text":"以老師在法學上……大法官提名了兩次，全部都被否決掉。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:24.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:46.199000+08:00","text":"我相信這些提名大法官的人選，有蠻多人委員也都認識，他們的學問及風評以及在業界的崇高地位，以委員在法學上長久的觀察跟相處，我相信你應該很清楚，但是都很可惜。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:47.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:56.249000+08:00","text":"部長提到的大法官人選，我可以跟您保證其中有幾位非常的不適當……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:56.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:57.249000+08:00","text":"我想可以個別的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:57.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:57.990000+08:00","text":"這種情形我不想講。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:57.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:58.990000+08:00","text":"他是全面……都沒有一個有過的，我想社會大眾都很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:58.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:45:59.072000+08:00","text":"我們回到正題來。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:59.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:00.072000+08:00","text":"不是幾個的問題啊。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:45:59.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:00.133000+08:00","text":"因為大院要審核……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:12.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:20.799000+08:00","text":"院長跟部長能不能給本席一個承諾，徐總長他代理的時間大概多久？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:23.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:28.221000+08:00","text":"總長人選的提出是由總統府方作業，部長……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:28.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:29.241000+08:00","text":"法律規定三個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:29.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:35.483000+08:00","text":"部長跟行政院能夠善盡提醒，我們會提醒，但這是府方的作業。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:35.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:42.090000+08:00","text":"根據法律第四項規定，總統必須三個月內提出人選並經立法院通過。是。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:42.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:44.016000+08:00","text":"所以，是不是代理期間三個月就好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:45.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:46.685000+08:00","text":"法律是如此規定，我想大家都清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:46.685000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:47.685000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，是因故……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:47.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:46:51.247000+08:00","text":"法律是規定總統三個月內提出人選。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:46:51.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:03.170000+08:00","text":"法律上是因故出缺或無法視事，我舉例，譬如因為他正好辭職，就像有辭職的前例或者是無法視事，譬如是不是有某些的事情……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:03.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:06.852000+08:00","text":"部長，你發言沒有時間限制，我發言有時間限制，但是我覺得你講話比我……","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:07.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:12.393000+08:00","text":"我來做些解釋，這件是任滿，任滿不是因故出缺。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:12.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:18.117000+08:00","text":"能不能承諾三個月內，代理期間在三個月內？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:18.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:27.664000+08:00","text":"法律的規定大家都清楚，但是規定的態樣不同，剛剛部長有說過態樣了，出缺和任滿不一樣。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:27.664000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:28.664000+08:00","text":"這部分法律沒有規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:28.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:29.866000+08:00","text":"態樣是不一樣的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:30.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:35.491000+08:00","text":"總統要三個月內提名，結果代理超過三個月，合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:36.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:43.217000+08:00","text":"我們認為總統應該在三個月內找出適當的人選，因此在三個月這段期間代理，不是嗎？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:44.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:47:47.880000+08:00","text":"法律的法理一定是這樣。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:47:47.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:04.629000+08:00","text":"能夠做到被提名當檢察總長，現在在法界服務的人也是寥寥可數，我們把最好的人選提出來，卻用一種到現在大家還不是很清楚的理由否決掉，所以總統跟我一樣都陷入到苦思──我們要怎麼提名下一位？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:06.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:21.328000+08:00","text":"院長，我對你的期待……中興大學老師的書籍我都讀了，所以您在這麼好的教育環境下學習，又受到賴總統非常的肯定，我相信您跟他做個報告，總統應該會同意，三個月可不可以？","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:25.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:27.893000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長有說過態樣不一樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:27.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:28.893000+08:00","text":"這不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:28.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:33.877000+08:00","text":"法律的規定是清楚的，但態樣不一樣，我們會跟總統提醒並討論這件事情，這並沒有錯。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:33.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:35.178000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:36.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:48:44.869000+08:00","text":"接下來是第三題，因為我們都是法律人，我提出的都是法律問題，兩位也比較容易回答。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:48:48.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:49:25.062000+08:00","text":"有關不副署的問題，根據中華民國憲法，副署權在第三十七條，總統要行政院院長副署才能夠公布法律，在增修條文之前，舊的第五十七條規定，如果覆議沒有通過，要辭職或應即接受；增修條文第三條只有應即接受，省去辭職兩個字。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:49:26.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:50:08.249000+08:00","text":"我學習法學以來，一直覺得要了解它，今天剛好院長跟部長都是法學界的前輩，我請教兩位，不副署就會變成法律可以不公布，立法院代表全國人民，是民意的表徵，變成只有一兩個人，一個人不副署，一個人不公布，全國2,300萬同胞選出的立法委員所通過的法律案就不能實施，這樣是一個民主的方式嗎？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:50:09.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:50:15.500000+08:00","text":"我常常說，包括提出覆議或者不副署，就行政院的立場來講都是被動的。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:50:16.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:50:42.356000+08:00","text":"在過去，行政院長必經立法院同意的那個時代，憲法的規定跟現在是不一樣的，現在把同意權拿掉之後，賦予行政院長在覆議之後他要接受，他就沒有其他的選項，但是憲法第三十七條所說的不副署，在憲法修正的時候並沒有被拿掉……沒有。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:50:43.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:00.608000+08:00","text":"留下來就必定有它憲法上的作用，而不是形同具文，就是給行政院長，若是立法院通過的是一個違反憲法的，是一個危害國家安全的、破壞財政紀律的，不經過民主程序討論的……No！No！院長……","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:01.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:03.269000+08:00","text":"那行政院長就有這個權力！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:04.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:14.412000+08:00","text":"這個權力不是在制衡總統的，總統跟不須經過立法院同意的行政院長沒有所謂制衡的問題。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:14.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:21.134000+08:00","text":"院長提到這一點，很顯然違反了三權分立，立法、司法、行政……對、對！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:21.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:24.315000+08:00","text":"就是立法院違反三權分立，侵犯行政權！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:24.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:26.555000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:26.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:27.555000+08:00","text":"你行政權……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:27.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:28.555000+08:00","text":"替行政權編預算！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:27.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:29.436000+08:00","text":"行政權不可以壓迫立法權……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:29.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:31.756000+08:00","text":"但立法院可以替行政權編預算嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:32.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:42.938000+08:00","text":"法律案有沒有違憲的問題可以聲請釋憲，那是司法權；行政院要不要副署，這是行政權；本院要不要立法，是立法權。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:42.938000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:43.938000+08:00","text":"那是三權分立……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:42.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:45.139000+08:00","text":"立法權不能來侵犯行政權啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:45.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:46.173000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:46.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:50.435000+08:00","text":"這個是這樣，有沒有違憲，要請大法官、憲法法庭解釋……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:50.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:53.376000+08:00","text":"可是大法官被逼到很長一段時間不能作業啊！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:54.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:55.557000+08:00","text":"所以，院長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:55.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:51:56.737000+08:00","text":"這都是精心設計啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:51:57.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:23.301000+08:00","text":"美國的聯邦最高法院、美國的國會山莊、美國的白宮有兩條路相連，一條叫做憲法大道、一條叫做獨立大道，憲法大道走到盡頭，你會看到美國司法部前面一個碑文寫著：Where law ends, tyranny begins.當你不遵守法律的時候，獨裁就會開始。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:23.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:34.087000+08:00","text":"委員，我實在是覺得遺憾，如果委員能夠在前兩年就進來，大概貴黨黨團不會做出這樣的決定，因為你的法學素養跟他們是截然不同的！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:34.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:37.649000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，此言差矣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:37.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:38.109000+08:00","text":"我覺得是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:38.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:39.109000+08:00","text":"術業有專攻……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:38.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:41.310000+08:00","text":"你必須勇敢承認，這是我們對你的尊敬！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:41.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:47.773000+08:00","text":"術業有專攻，我是外交的「淘兵」，我今天受惠於法律人，讓我讀政大法律研究所……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:47.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:49.774000+08:00","text":"你應該在這裡撐起法律人的尊嚴！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:49.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:52:56.857000+08:00","text":"當行政權被侵犯的時候，如果行政院一點自保的能力都沒有，那五權憲法形同虛設！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:52:57.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:53:02.860000+08:00","text":"所以你不覺得今天兩位對我講話聲音比較大一點，我的聲音反而比較溫和？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:53:03.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:53:09.604000+08:00","text":"這不是大聲的問題，這是要讓你清楚我們對你的肯定，如果前兩年你在，大概不會有這樣的結果。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:53:10.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:53:18.510000+08:00","text":"辭職或應即接受，現在增修條文沒有「辭職」兩個字，那到底我們的法律是要我們怎麼處理呢？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:53:19.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:53:31.988000+08:00","text":"也就是說，你應即接受，沒有辭職的選項，到底增修條文是要我們來處理當時如果不接受辭職，現在是用什麼方式呢？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:53:32.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:21.176000+08:00","text":"我個人粗淺的看法是這樣子：也就是說，如果是沒有經過覆議的法律案，你不副署，這個時候你沒有明白違反憲法的要求，但是你使得總統沒辦法去公布法律，所以總統應該對你行政免職；但如果你是不副署覆議失敗的法律案，這種情形根據我們現在的增修條文第三條是要求應即接受，行政院院長應即接受就是要副署，你不副署就是違反增修條文第三條。","quality":0.801},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:21.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:22.918000+08:00","text":"覆議之後被否決的沒有不副署啊！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:22.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:25.461000+08:00","text":"沒有，你覆議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:25.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:35.691000+08:00","text":"覆議之後被否決的，我們接受，但是我同時可以提出釋憲，但是大法官這條路被擋住了，所以好幾次、已經8次覆議沒有成功……","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:36.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:40.812000+08:00","text":"院長，您在財政收支劃分法是因為覆議失敗就沒有副署嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:41.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:54:41.973000+08:00","text":"覆議失敗？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:54:42.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:06.411000+08:00","text":"覆議失敗，接受，但我們可以提出大法官解釋，但是大法官的正常運作被長時間停止，所以8次的覆議都失敗，到最後逼不得已，我們在想如何確保行政權，到底憲法規定的行政院編列預算、立法院議決預算，這樣的權限能不能劃得很清楚？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:06.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:22.389000+08:00","text":"院長，我的理解是這樣，覆議失敗了，不副署，這個時候會變成你違反憲法增修條文第三條，覆議失敗，不副署……","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:22.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:23.389000+08:00","text":"沒有這樣的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:22.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:30.576000+08:00","text":"憲法增修條文第三條要求覆議失敗應即接受，應即接受就是副署，你不副署就是違反「應即接受」的憲法增修條文。","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:30.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:31.977000+08:00","text":"沒有，接受以後，我們是另外提出釋憲。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:31.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:35.025000+08:00","text":"釋憲必須……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:35.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:39.288000+08:00","text":"我不副署的，就沒有提出覆議，沒有先覆議再不接受。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:39.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:55:42.569000+08:00","text":"院長，釋憲必須要公布以後才可以釋憲，法律還沒有公布，還不能釋憲。是啊！沒錯。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:55:42.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:18.175000+08:00","text":"我個人的解讀，當一個行政院長違反憲法增修條文的時候，他其實是違反公務人員服務法第一條遵守法令的義務，以及第二十三條要受公務員懲戒法第九條，這個叫做司法免職，跟剛才行政免職不一樣，也就是一個行政院長沒有遵守應即接受，然後副署的憲法要求，總統應該要司法免職啊！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:18.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:21.936000+08:00","text":"我再請教委員，公務人員懲戒法，懲戒之後，是不是要送監察院？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:21.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:22.936000+08:00","text":"司法免職。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:22.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:22.576000+08:00","text":"是不是送監察院？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:22.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:23.296000+08:00","text":"要不要送監察院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:30.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:31.817000+08:00","text":"因為院長是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:32.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:33.278000+08:00","text":"監察院的路，也被你們擋死了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:33.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:41.883000+08:00","text":"行政院長是領有薪俸的公務人員，所以他適用公務人員懲戒法跟公務人員服務法，因為您領有薪俸。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:42.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:53.311000+08:00","text":"我另外一個遺憾是過去兩年委員不在，就這幾個案件，我們可以私下一一跟委員來對，副署的、不副署的；覆議的、不覆議的是怎麼樣的狀況。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:53.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:54.311000+08:00","text":"我已經幫院長整理出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:53.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:56:54.652000+08:00","text":"我可以私下跟委員請教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:56:54.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:04.410000+08:00","text":"這是我個人研究出來的答案，不是助理寫的，所以這個應該是司法免職，為什麼我們昨天要彈劾賴總統？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:04.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:11.974000+08:00","text":"就是因為他沒有對行政院長司法免職，所以才會提出一個彈劾案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:12.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:16.696000+08:00","text":"你們要彈劾總統，罪名可以隨便你們安，沒有一條成立的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:17.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:20.398000+08:00","text":"是這樣啦，院長，我們真的是一個法治國家……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:20.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:25.660000+08:00","text":"是，是誰在破壞憲政體制……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:25.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:26.660000+08:00","text":"我們從年輕開始學法律……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:26.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:27.660000+08:00","text":"是誰在破壞憲政體制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:27.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:31.461000+08:00","text":"為的就是一個法治長治久安，至於法律有沒有違憲，這個要大法官會議解釋。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:31.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:32.461000+08:00","text":"就沒有辦法運作啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:31.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:39.504000+08:00","text":"大法官就被你們擋死了，監察院也被你們刪減預算、行政院也被你們侵害了，只有立法院獨大，是今天臺灣最大的敗筆。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:48.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:57:55.220000+08:00","text":"謝謝許委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:57:55.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:58:04.928000+08:00","text":"報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:58:04.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:58:10.972000+08:00","text":"現作以下決定：下次會議進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:58:10.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:58:15.252000+08:00","text":"另外，5月19日星期二上午10時繼續開會，進行總統彈劾案事項。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:58:15.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-15T15:58:15.573000+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-15T15:58:16.073000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-15T15:58:17.215857+08:00","text":"休息（15時58分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}