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11:13:58","會議時間":"2026-05-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部部分。二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於國土管理署及所屬、國家公園署及所屬、建築研究所部分。三、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款內政部、國家公園署及所屬、國土管理署及所屬部分。四、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金－營建建設基金、實施平均地權基金。五、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管特別收入基金－研發及產業訓儲替代役基金、國土永續發展基金。六、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管信託基金－黃瑞景先生獎學基金、胡原洲女士獎(助)學基金部分。七、審查內政部函送財團法人二二八事件紀念基金會、財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會、財團法人台灣建築中心、財團法人臺灣營建研究院、財團法人中央營建技術顧問研究社等5家財團法人115年度預算書案。八、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心115年度預算書案。九、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員李柏毅等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理】、【所列預算提案於115年5月11日(一)中午12時前截止收件。】【第十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.83221875,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.49034375,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.511593750000003,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.26596875,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.74096875,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.42784375,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.60909375,"end":63.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.852218750000006,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.70846875000001,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.76721875,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.20409375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.93346875,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.63346875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.81846875000001,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.64034375,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.55409375,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.94596875,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.24909375,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.58221875000001,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.21409375,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.09971875000001,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.11659375,"end":127.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.13346875,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.25909375,"end":134.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.47846875000002,"end":196.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.63659375,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.75471875000002,"end":147.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.77159375000002,"end":147.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.93846875,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.42784375000002,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.31721875000002,"end":193.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.97534375,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.66721875000002,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.70096875000002,"end":194.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.33284375000002,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.13784375,"end":214.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.86659375000002,"end":223.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.75971875000002,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.32346875000002,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.80846875,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.15409375000002,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.27284375,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.09034375000005,"end":356.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.39346875,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.73909375,"end":358.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.24096875000004,"end":363.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.34596875,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.41721875,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.50159375000004,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.53534375000004,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.59659375,"end":390.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.44284375,"end":391.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.37471875,"end"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部長請問這些指標"},{"start":108.652,"end":128.389,"text":"有沒有納入在這個地方行政機關組織準則的原額邏輯中報告委員委員這樣提到說上一次我們提出這個準則的部分是在民國87年就表示說經過那麼多年之後我們的滾動檢討滾動的檢討跟原額配置的合理出現狀況那既然出現"},{"start":135.635,"end":155.415,"text":"那個委員的問題非常非常的好所以我們內部有做非常多的這個討論的空間那我直接先跟委員報告一下就是目前不只是新竹縣還包括新竹市有這樣的狀況那現在在行政院控管的員額上面新竹縣的可運用的員額數已經滿了對"},{"start":157.777,"end":171.807,"text":"新竹市還有25人的空間未來如果要修正這樣子的元額數的話我們還必須跟行政院的人事總處來做商量但是委員所提到說我們要修正地方行政機關的組織準則"},{"start":174.068,"end":200.527,"text":"要把相關剛剛所講的這個變數放到裡面去的話那就全台灣的22個縣市或者是說六都以外的這個16個縣市都要一起來討論那這個就會牽涉到說有些人口呢它是增加的但是有些人口呢是下降的那我們就會碰到一個難題人口增加你要往上請增援額大概不是困難"},{"start":201.408,"end":222.791,"text":"但是人口下降你要把它減原額那就會是很大的困擾所以如果說委員有提到說我們必須要把這個整個的這個組織準則原額重新再規定的話把所有的現在的變數都放到裡面去包括您所說的可能有流動人口的部分的話確實就會碰到有相"},{"start":224.332,"end":250.291,"text":"當多包括可能新竹縣旁邊的一些縣市啊他們的組織原額裡面的原額運用數就會有出現下修的這個可能性所以我們現在碰到比較大的困擾我了解非常好也謝謝部長有在關心所以我相信中央也發現了一個快速成長的科技城市呢它被塞在一個過時的線匣式的編制裡"},{"start":252.432,"end":266.25,"text":"所以部長剛剛也提到了他的困難所以本席也在這邊也特別提出我們中央其實也可以考慮建立一個快速成長的縣轄市特別治理機制也就是說剛剛部長講到了"},{"start":268.873,"end":287.628,"text":"我的人口減少 我的原額我可能很難幫你減少但是現在我們全國可能新竹縣市之外我相信也有可能有一些縣市它現在正在開發中未來也會面臨所以我們是不是有可能可以來建立一個快速成長城市的專案機制"},{"start":288.488,"end":317.123,"text":"這一塊我們也要懇請這個內政部因為主管機關我們能夠把這個專案機制來研擬看是不是可以來建立這個那本席在這裡也特別的建議就是說包含四類的加權第一個是人口快速成長型那我們就要給他基本的行政原額第二個都會核心型我們可能要納入白天的人口產業的活動還有通勤的人口"},{"start":317.683,"end":346.392,"text":"第三個就是建設高壓型能夠納入這個建造公共工程道路公園公共設施它的維護量那第四個就是設服高需求型能夠納入托育長照兒少社會救助以及家庭服務需求等等所以這個部分是不是可以請內政部看是不是三個月或六個月內呢可以有一個初步的評估可以嗎"},{"start":349.607,"end":375.109,"text":"是不是可以玩比較多的時間您所說的就是要往上傾增員額的部分這是一個快速成長城市的一個特別機制那你一定要傾增員額其實都不會太大的困擾我們現在比較大的困擾就是說有的人會提出那偏鄉怎麼辦那這個就是變成有城鄉差距的問題因為我們一旦提出這個改變的時候其實"},{"start":376.69,"end":391.145,"text":"要在同一個縣市有共識都不是很強我譬如說您現在提到了竹北竹東但是我就考慮到還有尖石鄉那所以這個部分確實要好好來參照所以你看是不是鄉鎮市跟縣市它是針對"},{"start":393.387,"end":404.675,"text":"這個快速成長就比如說城口或是他的一些剛剛我講的有快速成長但是也有快速副成長那所以我要跟您提到的就是未來我們可能要考慮的說我們是不是要先訂個下線"},{"start":408.078,"end":432.186,"text":"坦白講偏鄉地區流失的非常的嚴重那但是在您所說的就是幾個特別有因為產業發展急劇成長的這個縣市的部分有沒有其他容納的空間啊不是只有傾徵公務人員還有包括您所說的公務預算或者是其他的交通建設的預算原額跟財源要一併處理沒有只有原額那就不會是只有組織準則"},{"start":433.206,"end":446.053,"text":"因為它畢竟只是一個準則還有裁員的問題對 組織準則的部分那這個未來還有地方制度上面需要考量的空間所以是不是給我們多一點時間來研議好 那你們看要多久大概定個半年不行那就十個月"},{"start":452.486,"end":478.766,"text":"可以嗎 到明年我們市長說到明年差不多十個月就到明年現在已經五月了我們一起來跟縣市地方政府來考量好嗎好 所以我想 對啦城市已經長大了我們制度不能夠還在裝睡所以我也很開心我們部裡面非常重視所以這一塊包括員額 包括裁員我們希望可以一併考量"},{"start":479.466,"end":507.175,"text":"那最後我跟主席再要大概一分鐘我要特別針對社會住宅的部分那首先本席要在這裡表達我們絕對支持社會住宅但是要請部長還有我們的這個住都中心我們也要特別了解我們支持社會住宅但是不代表任何地點都適合興建"},{"start":508.135,"end":527.534,"text":"那所以不是要不要蓋這個問題而已有的地方是遇到適不適合蓋所以本席在這個大概一兩個禮拜前我參加了我們住都中心召開的新竹縣虎口鄉竹酒安居社會住宅興建計畫的研商會議"},{"start":528.635,"end":542.09,"text":"我特別特別表達我們中央要蓋我們當然是很開心但是選的點他不適合結果我們在地的村長代表議員鄉長這個大家都跳腳為什麼"},{"start":546.314,"end":560.602,"text":"我本席在這邊很快的要表達第一個交通問題你選的那個點交通問題已經非常嚴重了所以本身還沒有蓋社會住宅那邊就已經飽和而且怨聲嘶"},{"start":564.025,"end":582.123,"text":"反正怨聲載道地方也一直想辦法要積極的去改善但沒有改善的時候如果再導入大量居住的人口跟車流那絕對不會是一個好的居住環境第二個 地質安全不能賭那一個地方"},{"start":585.786,"end":600.315,"text":"我們在地的都知道它是地質敏感帶過去也有大規模的崩塌記錄這個在台大地質研究所的論文中都有所以這一塊我們也要懇請要審慎評估第三個就是基礎建設"},{"start":605.155,"end":631.669,"text":"這個我們中央選的這個社宅的點供水的部分水壓一直不足那這個垃圾處理上在現況上也整個處理能量也趨於飽和加上醫療、警消、教育資源整個承載不足所以人口如果大量移入整個地方是沒有準備好的最後我們湖口的鄉長也特別講"},{"start":633.13,"end":652.705,"text":"這個區域分配我們湖口鄉已經配合中央政策推動了新湖好市以及例行段開發案已經一個鄉配合了兩處的社會住宅那這個第三處引起很大的爭議所以本席特別要在這裡我們支持社會住宅但是我們希望對這個點的"},{"start":655.427,"end":672.277,"text":"這個選擇我們還是要特別的重視所以我看部長還是請我們這個董事長來謝謝委員關心這個案子本來起心動念因為那個寧園是一個長照的一個設施本來是搭配寧園的改建"},{"start":673.138,"end":687.555,"text":"還有上周邊的國土地一併來規劃那本來是希望透過引進出餐的方式來改善這個長照設施同時來蓋社會住宅那當然如果委員跟在地的里長有這方面的擔憂"},{"start":688.696,"end":715.295,"text":"那我們就先再好好地檢討一下我想在會議中大家反映了很多點要來改善新埠縣民眾的需求不只是住宅因為還有高齡者的照護的需求那如果說在地有這樣子的意見我想我們會往後退那我們再看看後續怎麼樣子的討論我們再來檢討是不是要繼續走還是要撤案"},{"start":715.595,"end":719.159,"text":"好啊 謝謝我想還是要審慎評估好 謝謝好 謝謝許新穎委員接下來葉元之委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}