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我們現在F16V上面都是有內建式的電站夾艙當時我們F16AB升級案是"},{"start":99.804,"end":126.861,"text":"本來有要做電站夾艙後來就是因為採購了後面這66架因為裡面有內建所以那時候就把那些案子稍微停下來我們現在還沒有追究原來的那些預算用到哪裡去了可是我們要知道的是現在F16V如果要回來今年要回來裡面有沒有電站夾艙因為告訴我們的是有我們買的預算裡面也是有"},{"start":127.301,"end":155.819,"text":"所以這個部分我們請國防部到時候釐清楚以後我們可以讓我們所有的全民很清楚好不好各位報告大概因為剛剛講的電站假倉因為我的了解是有居手的假倉還有紅外線徵收了一個假倉那電站假倉那這個部分我說的是電站假倉如果你說的是電站假倉的部分的話那應該是在F16V裡面F16V有所以我們今年回來的就會有是嗎"},{"start":158.004,"end":174.772,"text":"因為當時一直還沒有辦法回來這個也是一個很重要的因素因為不知道要決定哪一行如果說他今年可以回來表示裡面已經有決定而且裡面已經裝設了因為他是內建式的這個部分我先提醒我們的"},{"start":175.992,"end":197.257,"text":"行政院還有我們的國防部如果你說今年會回來我們希望他回來的就是我們買到的這些裝備都要齊全這是我們在這裡先提醒好不好對現在電站牆上在我想因為我們要求所以在研發這個當中那我想我們我下去會再確定一下那不是研發照理說他本來就有"},{"start":197.517,"end":218.169,"text":"可是他就for Taiwan所以他到底用什麼我們不知道可是已經今年最後一年沒有理由說他還沒有這樣子的一個決定性如果他能回來的話所以這個部分因為時間的關係顯然部長目前沒有辦法有確切的答案我們先在這裡做一個詢問如果有的話他是什麼樣的電站夾艙"},{"start":219.85,"end":245.398,"text":"那它今年會不會在我們的裝備裡面我先請教現在我們在接下來大概就是針對我們這個特別條例的部分當然行政院很希望通過的是1.25兆可是我們最後通過的版本為什麼會是7800億其實也是有經過大家的一些考量我們一直在講"},{"start":246.098,"end":260.097,"text":"尤其是軍事專業的大家很喜歡講物是抵之不來 事無有以待之所謂的有以待之那個有是應該要有具備相當的這些準備"},{"start":263.081,"end":277.892,"text":"包括我們的武器裝備那個有不是有預算就好了因為我們常常過去編了很多的預算我們看到很多的例子我們待會可以來討論一下我們當然希望有啊但委員把預算刪掉就是讓我們沒有沒有敵就來啦"},{"start":279.755,"end":304.424,"text":"院長我們先讓你等一下我會讓你知道我們為什麼沒有我們為什麼沒有你現在說的有院長剛剛你提到了嘛我說不是有預算是要有武器裝備那個東西我們已經付了錢我們先講你已經付了錢的你不要講還沒有的你以前付了錢都還沒有拿到"},{"start":304.944,"end":328.8,"text":"你以前付的錢都還沒有 剛剛講的F16V就是一個你們到現在也沒有辦法 今年最後一年 本來66架今年要倒欸如果你這樣講 這是完全失職 我們現在希望可以討論的是這個部分當你有很多都沒有到位的時候 我隨便再舉一個例子好了標槍飛彈 你們一直在說發架書 我們有一個四針飛彈"},{"start":329.981,"end":347.807,"text":"刺針飛彈惡武戰爭在打的時候我還有印象我們有民進黨的王定宇委員他還特別很高興的說像烏克蘭連一個老奶奶都可以拿著刺針飛彈就可以打敵人很容易操作 艱辛式的"},{"start":349.158,"end":359.385,"text":"可是我們在113年就因為這樣的理由不知道是不是啦我們本來買500枚在113年的時候我們又增加買多買了2000多枚從113 114起案我們有我們是破"},{"start":366.97,"end":373.132,"text":"就是增加購買從130億先聽我講完從130億增加到690億我們114年也有編預算今年也有編預算可是次增飛彈的發價書到目前為止還沒有來對不對"},{"start":388.118,"end":398.487,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個次增費單就是您講的現在就是說我們原來採購500枚的次增費單我們預計在今年底下對今年那個是加的我說我們這兩年還有發價書還沒有來對不對另外2121枚的部分確實還沒有取得發價書"},{"start":407.133,"end":432.407,"text":"對 已經兩年了 我們錢都編喔去年也編 今年也編可是發酵素還沒來所以剛剛你們在討論很多發酵素或者在特別條例討論的過程當中一直把發酵素拿出來講我們要講的是即使他們同意了 我們錢也編了他都不見得來這個是我們今天要特別提出來我們希望 預算案就會要先通過嘛所以我們"},{"start":433.127,"end":448.996,"text":"花架書確實沒有來這件事情我們要跟美方來商議但是我剛剛講的只是說我們計畫預算的精神就是說我們只要確定美方有供受意願我們就會先提出這個預算來供委員他有供受意願所以我們過了啊我們特別預算這個部分讓他過了"},{"start":449.736,"end":466.969,"text":"可是我要提醒的是我們有很多在這裡因為沒有辦法一一舉例在省預算的時候我們會提出來我們還有多少東西沒有拿到發價書可是我們錢一直編一直編一直編那就更不要說我們武器裝備什麼時候會拿到發價書就沒有付款的問題嗎沒有取得嗎"},{"start":467.83,"end":483.112,"text":"部長那個是錯的那不是沒有付款的問題你已經把它放到我們的戶頭裡面它已經框在那裡你的錢如果框在那裡你沒有辦法用在別的地方我們在FRB的戶頭那個還是屬於我們的而且還有知喜啊這個是屬於我們控制的"},{"start":483.473,"end":509.226,"text":"我們不要那些利息是你把錢框在那裡你就沒有辦法用到別的地方如果你今天這個條例過了然後明天又要一個條例後天又要一個條例如果你有很多沒有辦法到貨可是錢框在那裡並沒有用我們要的是有以待之是有那個武器裝備這是我們一直要強調的因為剛剛羅委員提出四個程序那就是現在國際上以及我跟美方軍購的"},{"start":510.647,"end":525.476,"text":"這個正常的程序先有供售的意願然後他還要報價資料外交官委員這麼久應該也知道這個預算的這個程序都是先有美黃供售意願我們就先行提出來了"},{"start":526.036,"end":554.145,"text":"過去發駕輸其實從來沒有發生問題所以只有在特別條例這裡出現那麼多這個你們可以去細究它的原因你說特別條例有發生問題你說這一次的特別條例嗎沒有啊不是特別條例是發駕輸沒有這麼多問題我沒有時間跟兩位談這個部分你現在有28個案子那當然你可以挑出其中某一個案子說還沒有取得發駕輸但是也有提前交運也有準時交運的那當然我們也不可否認也有一些延宕交運部長如果你要討論這一些"},{"start":555.825,"end":570.318,"text":"如果你要討論這些我們就要從頭來講了你F16V是我們最重要的主力戰機是現在空軍最依靠的一個戰機F16AV到現在十幾年了還沒有完成F16V"},{"start":571.779,"end":596.293,"text":"買了到現在最後一年66架還沒有到貨我們的潛艦往後延了兩年你們那個一邊是14年說因為要扒燒所以才可以阻敵於台灣海峽之外事實上台灣海峽根本不適合放潛艦可是當你們要潛的時候有人居然說那扒燒是經過美國的兵推還有台灣的漢光演習驗證的結果"},{"start":597.594,"end":615.106,"text":"那巴沙我們取得最快最快要16年以後還有我們的魚雷魚雷就是潛艦的武器今天我們潛艦機制做得再好今天如果讓你一個都做好了你沒有魚雷跟沒有拳頭是一樣的今天我們的"},{"start":616.447,"end":637.974,"text":"M16AB我們的飛彈系統到現在還沒有到貨已經超過好幾年了如果沒有飛彈它也等同於它的它的攻擊性其實是弱的如果你們要講這些的話我們現在要討論的是希望談別的我們有很多東西延宕了包括M1A2包括我們這個地表最強"},{"start":640.612,"end":667.114,"text":"我還沒講完M1A2它今年最後一批到貨可是你知道我們的訊廠還沒有做好嗎訊廠是我們台灣自己做的工廠到現在還沒有做好每一項都可以去講那我也可以要講M1A2到現在總預算都還沒有過人家已經交了總預算還沒有過對啊我們的M1A2最後一批的預算還沒有過哪一個部分沒有過M1A2戰車最後一批"},{"start":668.393,"end":685.198,"text":"我們今年總預算還沒過總預算還沒過你還是可以支出啊你還是可以支出啊這一個部分部長你很清楚我講的如果不能支出的是這個部分而且你很清楚如果在我們的那個戶頭裡面其實它是可以支用的因為它不是算得剛剛好"},{"start":691.96,"end":714.118,"text":"所以跟總預算是沒有關係的這個你非常清楚我們利用一點時間因為根據媒體的報導行政院是認為本次通過的版本排除商購以及偽製案嚴重損及國防建軍完整性以及五年兵力整建施政規劃跟排序會造成國防戰力的缺口會影響國內相關產業自主發展措施"},{"start":716.98,"end":737.85,"text":"跟國際安全供應鏈接軌的寶貴時機所以就這些部分認為遭刪除的部分會影響未來職管決策權益爭執還有台灣之盾防衛任性台美合作等等我們就這個特別條例的部分我們先簡單來討論一下因為最近執政黨也一直不斷的用"},{"start":739.592,"end":757.113,"text":"說刪減特別條例的預算就是在削弱台灣的防衛然後不照原案全數通過就是反對國防等等所以甚至把所有包括被檢視還有被刪減要求說明的這個項目都包裝成一句話叫台灣之盾"},{"start":757.714,"end":785.437,"text":"那本席今天要特別講清楚的是我們沒有反對建軍可是我們反對錯誤的建軍這個部分我們也不是不買武器可是不要買錯方向或買錯時間買錯系統最後花了天價也沒有形成真正的戰力因為國防預算它也不是政治口號也不是抗中保台就可以跳過監督首先我們來看看所謂的台灣之盾"},{"start":785.957,"end":814.056,"text":"它到底是戰力還是採購清單因為現在國防部是把增程型愛國者飛彈三型PAC-3MSE還有地對空飛彈還有包括像新雷達還有IBCS整合防空系統天空三型強攻飛彈普魯爪雷達這些全部劃到一張圖裡面說這是台灣之盾好像這樣就可以形成一個"},{"start":815.837,"end":828.232,"text":"完整的防空網可是本席想要請問院長跟部長這裡面剛剛提到的你們畫到這個防空網台灣之盾裡面的這些東西有哪些東西已經到貨"},{"start":829.963,"end":852.331,"text":"有多少系統已經完成整合然後有多少鏈路已經完成跨系統的接站測試或者有多少我們還在等他的還停留在這個軍售的規劃或發架書或者交貨的等待階段可不可以簡單的說明一下我們剛剛講的這些"},{"start":852.771,"end":867.341,"text":"跟委員報告大概就是說整體的防空系統我們可以分成高中低然後有反彈反飛機跟反無人機那這三個不同的一個防禦的都會有不同的武器所以現在要努力建置的就是在於這一個"},{"start":868.021,"end":888.081,"text":"我們將既有的跟現在獲得美資的以及未來獲得的我們透過一個整合的矛盾系統來連結做好這個火力協調因為剩下30秒你沒有聽清楚我的問題我知道高空低我說我剛剛念的那些就是高空低你們所謂的防禦可是這裡面哪些是經過驗測通過的是成熟的產品是經過你練錄"},{"start":891.724,"end":911.845,"text":"已經有可以連接的或者經過相關的測試這些有哪些已經做過了你可不可以提出來包括魚叉焙蛋跟雄蜂系列的廢蛋我們到現在還沒有辦法整合你未來要整合這麼多你要怎麼做台灣之盾那個是反建的不是你講的台灣之盾"},{"start":913.103,"end":926.916,"text":"部長你一直沒有聽清楚我說的我說台灣之頓你這些東西有哪些是你已經有經過接戰測試有多少鏈路已經完成這樣子的一個相關的整合"},{"start":936.715,"end":947.107,"text":"但是你放在特別條件裡應該是很乾淨的如果沒有就像我們之前要等你年十年甚至二十年這是很難阻礙的"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:44:38.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:44:40.734000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-19T15:44:40.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:44:40.754000+08:00","text":"請院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:44:53.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:44:53.513000+08:00","text":"馬委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:44:53.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:44:54.354000+08:00","text":"院長午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:44:55.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:18.290000+08:00","text":"院長，今天主要是針對特別條例的部分，剛剛有委員關切到F-16V這個部分，部長提到今年可能會有一架先回來臺灣，那我想要請教一下，要回臺灣的這一架F-16V裡面有沒有電戰莢艙？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:21.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:24.681000+08:00","text":"現在有五十幾架已經在線上作業。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:24.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:27.102000+08:00","text":"我說這一架有沒有電戰莢艙？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:27.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:30.624000+08:00","text":"部長說我們有相關人員去了解過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:30.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:38.668000+08:00","text":"我首先跟委員報告，並不是說只有回來一架，我是說預期今年的9月可能會先回來……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:39.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:45:48.093000+08:00","text":"部長，沒關係，不管回來幾架，我現在要知道的是，今年要回來的F-16V裡面有沒有電戰莢艙？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:45:50.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:46:01.116000+08:00","text":"電戰莢艙的部分，我的了解是，可能我們第一架的電戰莢艙……因為我們買的並不是每一個飛機上面都有電戰莢艙。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:46:01.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:46:33.418000+08:00","text":"有，現在F-16V上面都有內建式的電戰莢艙，當時我們F-16A/B升級案本來有要做電戰莢艙，後來就是因為採購了後面這66架，因為裡面有內建，所以那時候就把那些案子稍微停下來，我們現在還沒有追究原來的那些預算用到哪裡去了，可是我們要知道的是，F-16V如果今年要回來，裡面有沒有電戰莢艙？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:46:33.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:46:47.187000+08:00","text":"因為告訴我們的是有，我們買的預算裡面也是有，所以這個部分請國防部到時候釐清楚以後可以讓全民很清楚，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:46:48.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:46:56.652000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛講的電戰莢艙，因為我的了解是有狙擊手莢艙，還有紅外線偵搜莢艙，電戰莢艙這個部分也是一部分……","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:46:57.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:46:57.853000+08:00","text":"我說的是電戰莢艙。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:46:58.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:47:02.916000+08:00","text":"如果你說的是電戰莢艙的部分，那應該是在F-16V裡面。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:47:03.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:47:06.819000+08:00","text":"F-16V有，所以我們今年回來的就會有，是嗎？我想……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:47:10.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:47:38.075000+08:00","text":"當時一直還沒有辦法回來，這個也是一個很重要的因素，因為不知道要決定哪一型，如果說它今年可以回來，表示裡面已經有決定了，而且裡面已經裝設了，因為它是內建式的，這個部分我先提醒行政院還有國防部，如果你說今年會回來，我們希望回來的就是我們買到的這些裝備都要齊全，這是我們在這裡先提醒。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:47:39.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:47:45.876000+08:00","text":"對，現在電戰莢艙因為我們要求，所以在研發當中，我下去會再確定一下。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:47:45.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:47:59.984000+08:00","text":"這不是研發，照理說它本來就有，可是它就for Taiwan，所以不知道它到底用什麼，可是今年已經是最後一年，如果它能回來的話，沒有理由還沒有決定。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:48:01.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:48:13.691000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，這個部分顯然部長目前沒有辦法有確切的答案，我們先在這裡做一個詢問，如果有的話，它是什麼樣的電戰莢艙，以及它今年會不會在我們的裝備裡面？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:48:13.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:48:15.151000+08:00","text":"我先請教這個部分。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:48:17.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:48:34.857000+08:00","text":"接下來大概就是針對特別條例的部分，當然行政院很希望通過的是1.25兆，可是我們最後通過的版本為什麼會是7,800億，其實也是有經過大家的一些考量。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:48:35.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:48:44.668000+08:00","text":"我們一直在講，尤其是軍事專業的，大家很喜歡講：勿恃敵之不來，恃吾有以待之。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:48:45.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:04.109000+08:00","text":"所謂「有以待之」的「有」應該是要具備相當的準備，包括我們的武器裝備，那個「有」不是有預算就好了，因為我們過去編了很多的預算，我們看到很多的例子，我們待會可以來討論一下……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:04.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:08.872000+08:00","text":"我們當然希望有，但委員把預算刪掉就是讓我們沒有，沒有，敵就來了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:08.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:10.755000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:10.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:18.618000+08:00","text":"院長，等一下我會讓你知道我們為什麼沒有，你現在說的有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:18.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:19.818000+08:00","text":"刪掉就沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:19.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:29.062000+08:00","text":"院長，剛剛你提到了，我說不是有預算，是要有武器裝備，那個東西我們連付了錢……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:29.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:30.062000+08:00","text":"沒有預算就沒裝備啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:29.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:35.404000+08:00","text":"我們先講你已經付了錢的，你不要講還沒有的，你以前付了錢都還沒有拿到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:35.404000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:36.404000+08:00","text":"還沒有來的都還沒有付錢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:35.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:44.070000+08:00","text":"你以前付了錢都還沒有拿到，剛剛講的F-16V就是一個，你們到現在也沒有辦法，今年是最後一年，本來66架今年要到耶！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:45.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:49:47.972000+08:00","text":"如果你這樣講，這是完全失職。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:49:47.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:50:24.581000+08:00","text":"我們現在希望可以討論的是這個部分，當你很多都沒有到位的時候，我隨便再舉一個例子好了，像刺針飛彈，你們一直在說發價書，俄烏戰爭在打的時候，我還有印象民進黨的王定宇委員特別高興地說，像烏克蘭連一個老奶奶都可以拿著肩攜式刺針飛彈去打敵人，很容易操作，可是我們在113年就因為這樣的理由……不知道是不是啦！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:50:25.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:50:44.132000+08:00","text":"我們本來買500枚，在113年的時候，我們又增加多買了兩千多枚，從113年起案，我們有增加購買，從130億增加到690億，然後114年也有編預算，今年也有編預算，可是刺針飛彈的發價書到目前為止還沒有來，對不對？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:50:59.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:06.464000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，刺針飛彈就如同您講的，我們原來採購500枚刺針飛彈，我們預計在今年底交運……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:06.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:08.806000+08:00","text":"對，今年，那個是結案的，我是說這兩年還有發價書沒有來，對不對？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:08.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:09.487000+08:00","text":"另外2,121枚的部分確實還沒有取得發價書。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:18.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:24.417000+08:00","text":"對，已經兩年了，我們錢都編了，去年也編、今年也編，可是發價書還沒來。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:24.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:41.045000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛你們在討論很多發價書，或者在特別條例討論的過程當中，一直把發價書拿出來講，我們要講的是，即使他們同意了，我們錢也編了，它都不見得來，這個是我們今天要特別提出來的，我們希望……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:41.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:54.973000+08:00","text":"但是跟委員報告，那你們預算案就要先通過，確實，發價書沒有來這件事情我們要跟美方來商議，但是我剛剛想講的只是，我們計畫預算的精神就是，我們只要確定美方有供售意願，我們就會先提出這個預算供大院來審查。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:55.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:51:57.674000+08:00","text":"他有供售意願，所以我們過了啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:51:58.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:14.386000+08:00","text":"我們特別預算這個部分讓它過了，可是我要提醒的是，我們有很多……在這裡因為沒有辦法一一舉例，在審預算的時候，我們會提出來我們還有多少東西沒有拿到發價書，可是我們錢一直編、一直編、一直編，更不要說我們武器裝備什麼時候會拿到，所以恃吾有以待之……","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:14.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:17.588000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們沒有取得發價書就沒有付款的問題。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:18.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:29.546000+08:00","text":"部長，那個是錯的，那不是沒有付款的問題，是你已經把它放到我們的戶頭裡面，它就已經匡在那裡，你的錢如果匡在那裡，也沒有辦法用在別的地方。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:29.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:34.092000+08:00","text":"那個戶頭是我們在FRB的戶頭，那還是屬於我們的，而且還有孳息，這個是屬於我們控管的。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:34.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:38.975000+08:00","text":"我們不要那些利息，你把錢匡在那裡，你就沒有辦法用到別的地方。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:39.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:54.263000+08:00","text":"如果今天這個條例過了，然後明天又要一個條例、後天又要一個條例，如果你有很多沒有辦法到貨，可是錢卻匡在那裡，並沒有用，我們要的是「有以待之」，是有那個武器裝備，這是我們一直要強調的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:54.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:52:55.584000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-19T15:52:55.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:08.811000+08:00","text":"報告委員，剛剛羅委員提出四個程序，那就是現在國際上以及我跟美方軍購的正常程序，就是先有供售的意願，然後他還要報價資料，我們就要編列預算了……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:08.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:09.811000+08:00","text":"院長，這個不需要在這裡爭論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:09.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:16.456000+08:00","text":"委員，你在外交及國防委員會這麼久，應該也知道這個預算的程序都是美方有供售意願，我們就先行提出來了。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:17.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:24.558000+08:00","text":"過去發價書其實從來沒有發生過問題，只有在特別條例這裡出現那麼多，這個你們可以去細究它的原因……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:24.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:27.319000+08:00","text":"您說特別條例有發生問題，您是指這一次的特別條例嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:27.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:27.619000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:27.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:28.619000+08:00","text":"特別條例還沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:28.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:33.441000+08:00","text":"不是特別條例，是過去發價書沒有這麼多問題，我沒有時間跟兩位談這個部分，我們現在……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:34.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:53:44.204000+08:00","text":"你現在有28個案子，當然你可以挑出其中某一個案子說還沒有取得發價書，但是也有提前交運的，也有準時交運的，當然我們不可否認也有一些延宕交運的，所以我想美方……","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:53:44.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:54:44.946000+08:00","text":"部長，如果你要討論這些，那我們就要從頭來講了，F-16V是我們最重要的主力戰機，是現在空軍最依靠的一個戰機，但F-16A/B到現在十幾年了，還沒有完成交運；F-16V買了，到現在最後一年，66架還沒有到貨；我們的潛艦往後延了2年，你們那個一編就14年，說要8艘才可以阻敵於臺灣海峽之外，事實上臺灣海峽根本不適合放潛艦，可是當你們要錢的時候，有人居然說，那8艘是經過美國的兵推以及臺灣的漢光演習驗證的結果，那8艘要取得，最快、最快要16年以後；還有我們的魚雷，魚雷就是潛艦的武器，即使我們潛艦做得再好，今天如果讓你都做好了，你沒有魚雷，就跟沒有拳頭是一樣的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:54:45.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:54:59.231000+08:00","text":"今天我們的F-16A/B、我們的飛彈系統到現在還沒有到貨，已經超過好幾年了，如果沒有飛彈，也等同於它的攻擊性其實是弱的。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:54:59.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:01.472000+08:00","text":"如果你們要講這些的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:01.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:08.974000+08:00","text":"但我現在是希望談別的，我們有很多東西延宕，包括M1A2，包括地表最強……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:08.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:11.612000+08:00","text":"M1A2沒有延宕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:11.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:12.172000+08:00","text":"我還沒講完。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:12.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:20.259000+08:00","text":"M1A2最後一批今年到貨，可是你知道我們的訓場還沒有做好嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:20.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:24.803000+08:00","text":"訓場是臺灣自己做的工程，到現在還沒有做好！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:25.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:30.347000+08:00","text":"委員每一項都可以去講，那我也可以講，M1A2到現在總預算都還沒有過，人家已經交了。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:31.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:31.788000+08:00","text":"總預算還沒有過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:31.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:35.371000+08:00","text":"對，M1A2最後一批的預算還沒有過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:35.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:36.853000+08:00","text":"哪一個部分沒有過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:36.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:41.994000+08:00","text":"M1A2戰車最後一批，我們今年的總預算還沒過。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:41.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:43.434000+08:00","text":"雖然總預算還沒過，但你還是可以支出！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:43.434000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:47.155000+08:00","text":"美方待我們不薄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:47.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:50.736000+08:00","text":"部長很清楚，如果不能支出的是這個部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:50.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:55:51.736000+08:00","text":"人攜式刺針飛彈我也不一定要詢價，當時500枚的數量過少，如果我們一開始就決定兩千多枚，也許今天也不會發生延宕的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:55:50.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:56:05.742000+08:00","text":"而且你很清楚，如果在我們的戶頭裡面，其實是可以支用的，因為它不是算得剛剛好，所以跟總預算是沒有關係的，這個你非常清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:56:06.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:56:40.706000+08:00","text":"我利用一點時間，根據媒體報導，行政院認為本次通過的版本排除商購以及委製案，嚴重損及國防建軍完整性以及五年兵力整建施政規劃跟排序，會造成國防戰力缺口，影響國內相關產業自主發展，錯失跟國際安全供應鏈接軌的寶貴時機，所以認為遭刪除的部分會影響未來指管決策、全域偵知，還有臺灣之盾、防衛韌性、臺美合作等等。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:56:41.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:56:45.668000+08:00","text":"我們就特別條例先簡單討論一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:56:46.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:57:08.093000+08:00","text":"最近執政黨一直不斷地說，刪減特別條例的預算就是在削弱臺灣的防衛，不照原案全數通過就是反對國防等等，甚至把所有被檢視還有被刪減、要求說明的項目都包裝成一句話，叫「臺灣之盾」。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:57:09.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:57:26.268000+08:00","text":"本席今天要特別講清楚的是，我們沒有反對建軍，可是我們反對錯誤的建軍；我們也不是不買武器，可是不要買錯方向或買錯時間、買錯系統，最後花了天價，卻沒有形成真正的戰力。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:57:27.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:57:32.193000+08:00","text":"國防預算不是政治口號，也不是喊「抗中保臺」就可以跳過監督。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:57:32.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:57:40.420000+08:00","text":"首先，我們來看看所謂的臺灣之盾到底是戰力，還是採購清單？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:57:40.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:08.379000+08:00","text":"因為現在國防部是把增程型愛國者飛彈三型PAC-3 MSE，還有地對空飛彈、新雷達、IBCS整合防空系統、天弓三型、強弓飛彈、鋪路爪雷達等，全部畫到一張圖裡面，說這是「臺灣之盾」，好像這樣就可以形成一個完整的防空網。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:08.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:19.232000+08:00","text":"可是本席想要請問院長跟部長，剛剛提到你們畫到臺灣之盾這個防空網裡面的這些東西，有哪些已經到貨？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:20.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:22.984000+08:00","text":"有多少系統已經完成整合？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:24.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:30.326000+08:00","text":"有多少鏈路已經完成跨系統的接戰測試？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:30.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:40.170000+08:00","text":"或者有多少還停留在軍售的規劃或發價書，或交貨的等待階段？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:40.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:58:43.311000+08:00","text":"可不可以簡單的說明一下我剛剛講的這些？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:58:45.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:08.290000+08:00","text":"整體的防空系統可以分成高、中、低，然後有反彈、反飛機跟反無人機，這三個不同的防禦系統都會有不同的武器，所以現在要努力建置的就在於我們將既有的跟現在獲得美製的，以及未來我們獲得的，透過一個整合的指管系統連結來做好火力協調的分配。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:08.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:09.290000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道，不好意思！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:09.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:11.593000+08:00","text":"你沒有聽清楚我的問題，我知道高、空、低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:12.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:27.369000+08:00","text":"我剛剛唸的那些就是你們所謂的高、空、低防禦，可是這裡面哪些是經過驗測通過的、是成熟的產品、是鏈路已經可以連接的，或者經過相關測試？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:27.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:31.173000+08:00","text":"這些有哪些已經做過了，你可不可以提出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:31.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:32.173000+08:00","text":"你講的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:31.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:36.018000+08:00","text":"包括魚叉飛彈跟雄風系列的飛彈，我們到現在還沒有辦法整合……","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:36.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:37.018000+08:00","text":"那是反艦的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:36.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:38.821000+08:00","text":"未來要整合這麼多，你要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:39.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:40.243000+08:00","text":"臺灣之盾……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:40.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:42.825000+08:00","text":"那個是反艦的，不是你講的臺灣之盾。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:44.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:46.786000+08:00","text":"部長，你一直沒有聽清楚我說的。我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:47.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:53.952000+08:00","text":"我說臺灣之盾這些東西，有哪些是已經有經過接戰測試？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:53.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T15:59:57.896000+08:00","text":"有多少鏈路已經完成相關的整合？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T15:59:57.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:03.256000+08:00","text":"然後有那些已經到貨？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:03.256000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:08.616000+08:00","text":"就國產的、天弓系列的，都是我們國產的嘛！","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:08.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:11.079000+08:00","text":"你放在特別條例裡面，就是應該形成即戰力的……","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:11.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:12.079000+08:00","text":"愛國者系列也是美製的部分，我們現在也有相關的……","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:11.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:18.087000+08:00","text":"你放在特別條例就應該發生即戰力，如果沒有，就像我們之前要等5年、10年，甚至20年，這是很難等待的，謝謝。","quality":0.537},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:18.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:21.729857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝馬委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-19T16:00:22.029857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-19T16:00:25.172714+08:00","text":"下一位請沈伯洋委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}