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time的陳永康委員然後羅美玲委員"},{"start":1770.319,"end":1794.33,"text":"另外根據我們勤工法以及本委員會歷次的提案在有關勤工法規範的相關單位來到本委員會除業務主管我們名字揭露以外其餘我們皆隱匿其名這是基於保護我們國家勤工相關人員的必要那以下我們今天參與國安局業務報告的首先是國安局局長蔡明彥"},{"start":1797.723,"end":1825.981,"text":"廣布縣指部指揮官目前因公在外請假本席有給予核准所以由副指揮官余大任志通電指揮部指揮官毛建秋軍情局局長陳明華電展室主任郭志國這個新到任歡迎來到委員會政治專案局局長石順文"},{"start":1830.285,"end":1858.393,"text":"軍安總隊總隊長余明達海委會海巡署署長張忠榮巡防組組長洪柏昇情報組組長廖德勝內政部警政署由署長張榮鑫刑事警察局局長周祐偉"},{"start":1861.128,"end":1886.555,"text":"這兩位都我們台南出生的好再來是保安組副組長王秉瑞你們組長有事嗎對OK我們通常是正主觀那如果不能來要請假一下好不好謝謝再來是防治組組長陳炯志"},{"start":1891.09,"end":1918.474,"text":"內政部移民署署長林鴻恩國際級執法事務組組長江玲陸出國事務組組長林怡峻移民事務組組長徐雲移民資訊組組長黃耀良法務部調查局局長陳百利"},{"start":1922.404,"end":1946.2,"text":"國家安全維護處處長葉麗欽國內安全調查處處長陳宇源保防處處長林天進直通安全處處長張游仁我們目前要到場的是陳俊宇委員"},{"start":1949.734,"end":1973.423,"text":"本日會議邀請國家安全局局長率相關情報機關首長提出國家情報工作即國家安全局業務報告並被質詢那詢問本報告區分為公開及機密兩部分採取先公開後機密後秘密那詢答是先秘密後公開這樣我們清場只要處理一次就可以了"},{"start":1974.884,"end":2000.386,"text":"本委員會發言時間是6加2分鐘非本委員會的發言時間是4分鐘這個時間機密跟公開的時候是共用時間10點半的時候發言登記會截止如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出我們在11點左右本席會試會議狀況來進行處理首先我們現在請國安局局長蔡明彥蔡局長進行報告"},{"start":2012.844,"end":2033.38,"text":"好謝謝主席主席各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早首先感謝外委會安排本人協同我們國安情報團隊的首長來會會進行下半年度的業務報告那現在緊就國家安全情勢分析跟未來工作重點方向跟大家進行以下提報第一部分是有關於國家安全情勢分析一當前重要的情勢"},{"start":2034.66,"end":2051.25,"text":"美國的政策牽動到全球政經格局的變化那美國川普政府強調美國優先在經貿的部分從今年8月7日開始對各國開始來課徵各種的對等的關稅那在此同時也防止中共來進行席產地或是過剩產能的一個傾銷"},{"start":2052.29,"end":2067.613,"text":"另外美國政府也依照貿易擴張法第232條的一個規定針對戰略產業的產品來進行國安的調查相關的一個關稅措施已經改變了全球相關的一個貿易的流向促使全球產業鏈發生重組的一個狀況"},{"start":2068.434,"end":2083.146,"text":"那在安全的部分美國川普政府也陸續地重啟二戰時期在西太平洋相關的軍事基地來強化在西太平洋第二島鏈戰略的一個佈局在印楚區域的安全部分那川普政府介入到以伊的衝突"},{"start":2083.706,"end":2100.345,"text":"也推出以哈停火的談判還有俄烏和平的協議那同時也尋求以色列還有歐洲國家可以來分別承擔在中東地區還有歐洲地區的安全責任以便美國可以把資源更急駐到印太地區來應對中共的一個擴張所帶來的一個威脅"},{"start":2102.287,"end":2123.894,"text":"歐亞供應俄中安全的威脅那俄烏戰事久拖沒有解決那俄中之間的協作關係也日益的緊密所以面對這樣的發展趨勢我們看到歐盟開始要求中共必須要停止援俄那反對片面改變台海的現狀那英國政府也發布了國家安全戰略法國也更新了印太戰略來關切印太地區的和平跟穩定"},{"start":2124.594,"end":2147.154,"text":"那在此同時我們也注意到美國跟區域友盟繼續的來推動美日加恩的安全合作的機制那美國除了在日本菲律賓加強軍事部署以外也積極的來推出南韓跟澳大利亞等等區域友盟可以來擴大共同防禦的責任提升第一跟第二島鏈整合性嚇阻的能量以便來遏制中共破壞區域的安全跟穩定"},{"start":2149.177,"end":2177.297,"text":"中共推動周邊外交應處壓力那有鑑於美盟加大對中共的戰略圍堵的態勢那中共也積極地試圖來恢復跟改善跟美國友盟包括像日本、南韓、歐盟、澳大利亞、印度等國的往來合作那透過推進自由貿易協定的談判以及運用中共的籌碼像是稀土的管制還有反傾銷的調查那希望透過這些的政策的作為來降低美國盟友抗中的力度"},{"start":2177.837,"end":2189.662,"text":"但是美國區域盟友在經貿上還是維持去風險的路線同時在安全上也加強跟美國的合作導致中共來改善對外的關係也面臨到一些因素的制約"},{"start":2191.53,"end":2207.587,"text":"包括是美國關稅加劇的中共的金色風險那在經濟的部分中共雖然推出所謂的兩新政策也就是以舊換新設備更新兩新政策但是地方政府補貼的資金不足而且政策的成效也逐次的在遞減通膨"},{"start":2209.629,"end":2228.167,"text":"風險也逐漸的在升溫所以我們看到從今年的1月到8月那中共國內的投資增速只有0.5%那創下了2020年同期以來的最新低點那另外在民間還有房地產的投資降幅也不斷的擴大那顯示中共在內需的動能目前來看能非常的疲弱"},{"start":2229.148,"end":2245.365,"text":"在社會風險的部分那從今年一月到九月中共總共發生了三千六百六十三起的陳抗事件那跟去年的同期來比較的話增加了百分之六十三那陳抗事件當中以欠薪跟爛尾樓的抗爭事件那佔了最高的一個占比"},{"start":2245.885,"end":2253.276,"text":"那中共官方的數據也顯示了在今年的8月中共的青年失業率高達了18.9%那這是在2023年12月中共調整了青年失業率統計方式以來最高的一個新點"},{"start":2261.448,"end":2288.914,"text":"第二部分是跟大家來提報有關於我國的國安的威脅瓜湖一共軍海空挑釁推升區域的緊張那中共的空中武力從今年的一月到九月逾越台海的中線侵入我國的防空識別區有超過三千架次那也增加了他們在夜間活動的一個頻次那試圖來擴大對我國常態侵擾的一個力度那除了中共的海空的侵擾以外那中共也派遣海警船公務船"},{"start":2289.554,"end":2315.443,"text":"海洋調查船以及民兵漁船在我國的本島跟外島周邊的水域來活動擴張中共所謂的管轄海域在今年的九月三號那中共也以抗戰勝利八十週年為名義來舉行閱兵的典禮那展示火力打擊無人作戰和威懾等等所謂的新型的戰力那我們可以綜合來分析看到中共除了企圖來對內"},{"start":2317.163,"end":2330.263,"text":"轉移經濟的不振跟貪腐的問題以外對外也聚集的極權國家包括俄國跟北韓來推升抗美的態勢那為習近平後續可能第四任期的顧全奠基來做好一些鋪墊的動作"},{"start":2333.117,"end":2354.9,"text":"中共加大打壓對我去主權化那中共在今年以來持續的來扭曲聯大2758號的決議案在國際上矮化我國主權國家的地位強化國際一中的格局另外也策動了親中的國家拒絕承認我國的護照或是把我國的外館來進行更名主要的目的就是希望對我來進行去國家化扼殺我國的國際能見度"},{"start":2357.519,"end":2373.351,"text":"中共擴大對我統戰滲透的工作那中共持續的透過退役拉攏現役網路勾連金錢利誘債務脅迫等等的方式對我國的軍事單位還有政府機關來進行滲透來刺探相關的情資"},{"start":2373.991,"end":2399.864,"text":"或是在台部件組織發展武裝的內應勘查軍事的要地或是利用我們的國軍官兵來宣示效忠面對這樣的一個狀況我們在共諜案的起訴的部分從今年1到9月也共計有24人這個部分可以顯示中共對我們在刺探機民資訊非常積極的滲透作為除此之外我們也看到中共持續的來拉攏"},{"start":2400.464,"end":2417.502,"text":"我們國內年輕的世愛世代到中國來進行相關的一個交流活動那除了來免除相關的台胞證辦證的費用以外各種交流活動也提供落地招待的方式來誘拉我國年輕的首來族到中國大陸來進行相關的交流或訪問的活動"},{"start":2419.386,"end":2436.648,"text":"關乎是中共密集的來對我國妄害 竊資以及進行威懾近年到目前為止我國政府的網路服務網每天遭到中共網路侵害的次數達到280萬次那駭工的目標主要鎖定我國的政府"},{"start":2437.388,"end":2461.83,"text":"關鍵基礎設施以及相關重要產業的供應鏈那在中共的網害戰略的運用主要有透過兩手策略包括了隱蔽滲透還有政治操作這兩手策略那中共除了來進行情報的竊取之外也結合在暗網論壇還有媒體來傳散各種的偽冒文件那目的就在動搖我們國人還有社會對於政府網防的一個信心"},{"start":2462.771,"end":2490.442,"text":"關乎中共利用新興的技術擾亂我國的輿論場域那今年以來我們國安情報團隊總共收獲爭議訊息有150萬餘則那異常帳號有1萬800餘組那中共主要是透過官媒網路水軍還有龍媒體等多層次的一個途徑對我國來傳散相關攻擊政府或是揚州以美的爭議訊息那主要的目的就在加劇我們國內的對立還有分類"},{"start":2492.843,"end":2518.771,"text":"分裂那第二部分是跟大家報告一下未來的工作重點的方向那大概有六點那以下逐一的跟大家來做報告跟說明一深化國際情報合作共同遏制中共擴張那本局會持續的來指導國安情報團隊廣泛來收集重要的情訊嚴謹延續未來情勢發展的趨勢跟因應的建議以便來支援政府的一個決策"},{"start":2519.491,"end":2542.118,"text":"二提升情報不收的效能掌握中共內部的動態那中共近年來剛剛在跟大家報告內容有提到經濟比較低迷官民對立的氣氛比較加劇社會矛盾也日益的嚴重所以本局會持續的運用多元情戰的方式擴大發掘對中收密的線索以便來及時收報中共的內密情資掌握中共內部動態的發展"},{"start":2543.999,"end":2564.634,"text":"第三,掌收中共某台舉措,強化檢調協作的機制。本局會持續地來深化國安情報團隊跟外部協作的機制,來擴大我們政府機關彼此之間聯防應處的一個效能,強化橫向的通報、內控的機制以及反情報的一個宣導,以便來確實維護國家安全跟民主體制的運作。"},{"start":2565.535,"end":2579.643,"text":"第四 先期規劃專案的部署 確保民主選舉平順那為了因應明年九合一的選舉那本局會先期的來完善安危專案的規劃 機先掌握各項違常的動態確保我們的選舉可以平順來舉行"},{"start":2581.064,"end":2598.774,"text":"第五,結合科技預判威脅,建置多元備援系統,本局會穩健地來推動各項的多元科技徵召預警的能力,服以我們AI技術來優化我們情勢預判的量能,同時來擴增跟政府資安聯防還有行船通聯的一個韌性。"},{"start":2599.795,"end":2617.723,"text":"第六 也最後一點來深化我們的國安協作機制共同聯防徵訊的操作那本局會密切的來統合我們國安情報團隊掌收中共遂行認知作戰具體的基證及時的來通報全球機關採取必要的應處作為以便來阻斷徵訊的傳散最後部分 結語"},{"start":2618.723,"end":2643.926,"text":"面對訊息萬變的安全情勢國安情報團隊會增進我們情資收援的能量同時也來積極整合跟政府機關協作交流深化跟國際友盟戰略溝通跟合作強化情報還有反情報安全防衛的韌性以便來進一步維護我們的國家安全跟社會穩定那敬請我們在場各位委員先進可以持續給國安情報團隊必要的支持協助跟指導謝謝大家"},{"start":2646.291,"end":2664.037,"text":"好 謝謝局長完成我們公開報告的部分有沒有其他單位要補充的那如果沒有的話呢我們公開報告結束那接續要進行秘密報告跟秘密詢答秘密會議的部分我們要進行清場那今天出列席的人"},{"start":2686.034,"end":2695.87,"text":"把相關的傳輸系統的東西收納然後檢查簽保密切書進場另外我們現場的安全也麻煩再確認一下麻煩從前門離開"},{"start":4248.943,"end":4249.307,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":4277.309,"end":4280.401,"text":"人的手機都失了"},{"start":4368.803,"end":4397.935,"text":"我們在開始詢答之前跟我們委員會的同仁報告在10月13號我們進行海倉計畫機密專報的時候那在我們的發言系統當機電視閃爍電腦系統出問題那當時我們在機密會議裡面有要求我們立法院進行了解那現在剛才醫生員給我回報情形我向本委員會同仁報告一下資訊處說明及處理情形如下"},{"start":4398.735,"end":4416.58,"text":"那電腦網路連接的部分是他們的陳述是網路交換器電源接觸不良那已經在10月13號汰換該交換器還有網路線另外電視螢幕呢我們那時候在開機密專報的時候各位應該有看到那不斷的閃爍那是訊號傳輸變壓器故障"},{"start":4421.941,"end":4445.228,"text":"將所有的傳輸變壓器一併換新所以就資訊處調查情形並沒有我們擔憂的相關資訊外洩或者駭客的情形所以向本會的立委同仁做一個報告好 我們現在登記公開質詢的委員開始詢答第一位請陳俊宇委員上台質詢時間6加2分鐘"},{"start":4459.295,"end":4462.219,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請蔡局長來 局長請好 局長早蔡委員早"},{"start":4470.051,"end":4494.385,"text":"最近國際間發生多起的政治暴力事件包括先前美國川普在競選時遇刺還有上個月保守派領袖柯克的槍擊事件還有上禮拜德國也發生新當選的市長遇刺還有厄瓜多總統的車隊也被丟石頭等等"},{"start":4495.245,"end":4509.804,"text":"那這類似的針對政治人物的暴力攻擊事件他所襲擊威脅極端主義的行賄日據升溫對全球的民主國家造成相當程度的危害"},{"start":4510.405,"end":4524.074,"text":"那我想請教局長就是對於近期的國際間發生的這些政治暴力事件我們國安局是否都有掌握相關的情資那相似的事件在國內有沒有可能會發生的風險局長您怎麼評估"},{"start":4528.737,"end":4549.469,"text":"謝謝委員來關注我們警衛安全的問題事實上對於國際上發生這種暴力攻擊或恐怖攻擊的事件我們國安局這邊都有進行一些專案的搜報來分析相關的一個攻擊的手法跟樣態以及可能在事件發生之前是不是就有些爭吼這部分包括我們"},{"start":4550.65,"end":4578.88,"text":"國內情報處 國際情報處以及我們特勤中心都有這方面資訊的分享跟聯繫第二部分是針對我們國內會不會有發生內岸的狀況因為在相關國安局負責的是警衛 援守的安全所以這部分我們一直都有一個非常嚴謹的機制來做相關援守歷齡場所之前的一個現勘還有一些安檢的一個工作至於相關可能進出"},{"start":4579.58,"end":4591.793,"text":"的人員我們也會進行相關的身份的查證跟辨識那也不可以攜帶相關的違禁物品那委員在螢幕上有顯示說是不是有一些所謂的恐嚇的郵件這陣子在國慶期間確實有比較嚴重"},{"start":4595.456,"end":4613.153,"text":"我們大概在國慶期間收報到的有二十幾件的這種電郵恐嚇的這些郵件那包括有要針對人群來做一些相關的一個車衝啦或是所謂的一個威脅的一些言語那我們大概收報到這樣的一個情節都會"},{"start":4613.954,"end":4635.141,"text":"跟國安情報機關來進行通報跟分享來加強我們警衛安全的作為另外也會去進行溯源跟查找這些IP的位置以及從它的恐嚇郵件的內容來分析到是不是特定的人士來進行這樣的一個恐嚇郵件的激發的動作目前為止大部分IP位置都是從境外進來的"},{"start":4636.061,"end":4644.63,"text":"都是從境外 從境外進來不是國內 是這部分我們應該都掌握相關的事實情勢對 沒有問題 跟整頓署長我們隨時在討論這個問題"},{"start":4647.997,"end":4676.015,"text":"因為國慶期間有委員的名字被冒用他用吳斯堯委員的名字發送這些恐惡的信件所以我也希望說我們不只是這個國慶典禮的類似的威脅未來在選舉造勢還是這個節慶典禮外賓來訪的這種高風險的活動舉辦的時候也都可以來做相關的預防避免相關的情勢在發生"},{"start":4678.177,"end":4692.357,"text":"我想再請教局長就是針對這個部分因為我們本身我們國內並沒有反恐的專責單位我們必須要跨單位之間來做處理那我們是否已經有一個快速應變的"},{"start":4696.5,"end":4722.471,"text":"對 這應該分兩個面向來講一個部分是就政府的權責來講主要還是由行政院的國土安全辦公室來負責這方面的業務特別是針對人安反恐的部分那第二部分是剛剛跟委員報告說明的就我們的特勤維安的團隊那負責維安的對象是總統跟副總統那這部分我們有一個非常嚴謹的機制來確保總統副總統的警衛安全那至於其他的政府的"},{"start":4723.511,"end":4732.835,"text":"官員的相關的警衛安全工作那主要是由警政署在負責那這部分假如有在情資上有升高這個違案的風險我們也都會啟動相關的機制來應處"},{"start":4736.018,"end":4762.569,"text":"好那這部分我還是請我們國安局持續的注意避免類似的事情在台灣發生那在這個雙十連假的期間這個中共對台的文攻武嚇也是沒有間斷而且還更加的加劇那個我們台獨水軍就是我們的政戰局跟軍情局的部分針對這個部分我們有18名的成員被這個"},{"start":4764.209,"end":4785.684,"text":"各自被發布出來那他們是用懸賞通告這也不是中共第一次那對於這個部分我想請教局長就是今年六月對於這個中共所公布的二十多名我們支通電軍人員的這個各自相比這一次的這種懸賞通告在對象上意義有什麼不同"},{"start":4786.28,"end":4801.031,"text":"對 當然可以看到它鎖定的都是我們國安情報團隊在這個部分主要還是一種所謂認知作戰的操作透過一些公開的情資還有錯誤的情資故意的來交互混雜的運用"},{"start":4803.092,"end":4825.954,"text":"那也針對這些所謂中共指出來的個人來進行所謂的追訴、起訴的動作那我覺得主要的目的有兩個部分第一個部分是來造成一種心理的一個恫嚇讓我們的國軍官兵弟兄特別是國安情報團隊的國軍官兵弟兄會有這種心理上的一個壓力達到他所謂心理戰還有輿論戰還有法律戰的一個效果"},{"start":4826.374,"end":4842.585,"text":"那第二個面向是有時候這些資訊的公佈它會抓一些比較特殊的時間節點那像最近這兩次包括政戰局還有我們軍情局的公佈它幾乎都是在我們的國慶前後這兩天來發佈那也透過這樣的一個發佈故意來引導我們國內輿情討論的一個方向"},{"start":4846.468,"end":4859.969,"text":"那也特別來凸顯說中共在對台的勤工作業有它的一個成效那我再次的提醒因為很多資料是錯誤的照片也是錯誤的所以這部分我想國防部已經有對外來做正式的說明"},{"start":4860.558,"end":4875.317,"text":"好 那對於我們這個情報人員的身份的保護啦我想我們 局長您認為我們目前做得足夠嗎那未來因應相關的這種手法我們會不會有相關的這個反制的這個作為"},{"start":4876.919,"end":4896.411,"text":"對 那兩個部分跟委員報告那在怎麼樣來加強人員的去識別化那這部分國安局這邊是經過很多年的一個整備避免到有人員的這些情資的外洩那這部分我們也會持續的跟我們國安情報單位來進行溝通怎麼樣來移植我們的一些經驗給各單位來做參考"},{"start":4898.812,"end":4920.545,"text":"那特別是在那個人員的去識別化因為國防部的單位他有時候會有一些公開的人員的資訊包括人員的調動那這部分中共就比較容易在公開的情資來做一些收集跟比對那所以這部分我們會再來提醒我們國防部的友軍在這部分去識別化的動作怎麼樣來再進一步的強化"},{"start":4922.606,"end":4949.021,"text":"第二部分是有關於有時候國軍官兵他在保防意識還需要再進一步的加強有些國軍官兵他會在網路上有字階身份的這種狀況不小心說出自己是部隊服役的限職人員中共的網軍在這一部分收集資料是非常容易的所以可能這一部分也是我們後續國安情報團隊包括我們國軍來進行一些保防宣教未來的一個重點"},{"start":4949.921,"end":4968.412,"text":"好 那另外是這個中共在下週就要舉辦這個四中全會那對這個部分他們主要的議題有可能是第15個這個五年的規劃還有這個會觸及到他們中共本身高層人士的相關問題"},{"start":4969.412,"end":4998.051,"text":"甚至這個對美的貿易戰等等那對於這個部分我想請教這個局長就是對於本次的中共所要舉辦的四中全會所聚焦的議題以及會議中可能會這個做出的相關重大決定還有相關高層人事的變動甚至現在網路上也有在這個謠傳就是說胡錦濤的這個勢力在反撲等等那對於這個部分我們國安局目前有沒有預估到什麼或掌握到相關的情勢"},{"start":5000.178,"end":5022.794,"text":"兩個部分 一個部分是在經貿的部分因為委員剛剛提到是市中全會會討論十五五的經濟規劃那我們相信它的主要重點會放在新職生產力的部件那另外還有擴大內需以及維持貿易的開放還有增加更多的自由貿易談判在人事的部分因為目前的中央委員205名裡面有3名的缺額那他可能會進行人員的一個地補"},{"start":5023.514,"end":5048.776,"text":"比較重要的是包括中央軍委會描劃有沒有會在這一次的四中全會來做進一步的人事的處理另外還有像中聯部的劉建超會不會處理這是重點的人物另外我們有在注意的是中共的35名的上將目前有32名是現役上將另外3名是中將代理上將職務的35名上將裡面的32名現役上將"},{"start":5051.858,"end":5077.408,"text":"從去年的12月到現在有16位是沒有在公開場合出現的所以我們的判斷是中共的軍方人士有在進行大規模的調查跟清洗那等於是三將32名裡面有一半以上已經有快一年的時間沒有公開樓面所以這部分我們會來看在市中全會相關人士包括政府還有黨還有軍方一些人士的佈局跟安排"},{"start":5078.479,"end":5096.322,"text":"那以上也請我們國安局持續的掌握相關的情緒我們會 會 謝謝陳委員的指導 謝謝陳俊宇委員你們國安局知不知道胡錦濤現在在哪裡我私下跟你講OK 好我等你私下跟我講好 接下來進行巡達的委員 陳永康委員"},{"start":5114.113,"end":5124.106,"text":"蔡局長來 蔡局長請謝主席 蔡委員長主席長 委員長局長剛才在聽您的報告裡面"},{"start":5129.811,"end":5150.749,"text":"有几个议题特别提出来做一个建议第一个您提到英国最近公布了国家安全战略其实我们很多的友好国家都有国家安全战略那么中国大陆它是叫大战略川普2.0的战略在今年底或明年初也会公布因为它是根据1986年的高尼法案"},{"start":5151.61,"end":5168.625,"text":"因为国家安全战略它是长期的它不只是国防军事它包括它的社会韧性包括它的金融包括它的能源医疗体系社会结构都含括在内我们局里面在跨部会的协商当然扮演一个很重要的角色"},{"start":5169.686,"end":5189.656,"text":"什么时候我们中华民国官方版的国家安全战略可以在我们赖总统这一任内公布我想邀请局长这边鼎力建议跟协助因为他的目标是长期的目标那不是短期的军事威胁所以他是维持和平促进繁荣"},{"start":5190.416,"end":5214.435,"text":"那我们国防部也出了国家安全战略国防战略但是着陷在军事上所以我们的这个QDR四年期总检还有我们的这个白皮书他强调的是社会防卫任性国防民生嚇阻敌人赢得战争但是他涵盖的目的不够没有上游的国家安全战略的指导啊"},{"start":5215.925,"end":5229.236,"text":"跨部会的协商在这个责任分摊上面他会有时候会产生一条协调的困难那这个我们是需要呃国安局啊在在上面来协助指导这个以色列"},{"start":5230.543,"end":5258.755,"text":"跟這個哈姆斯或者是跟這些中東的國家通常是贏得了戰爭但是有的時候是輸掉了贏得戰鬥輸掉戰爭但是即便是贏得了戰爭如果輸掉和平像俄國入侵或這種狀況下全民是受災的因此國家安全戰略給一個長期的預警做一個指導是很重要的那今天您特別提到資安的這個"},{"start":5260.202,"end":5270.563,"text":"重要性我想貴局已經在內部做了很多的這個資安過濾有資訊大部分的資訊尤其是供應鏈的supply chain還有一個基礎設施"},{"start":5272.711,"end":5296.955,"text":"我们要满足战略安全的需求包括分级跟审查的标准涉及到情资共享那么有些运用AI的技术它的云端在国外这个部分我们要考虑到合约里面的就是说我的自主性因为不见得是完全用国内的云端AI的技术有部分在国外包括软体硬体查核机制下面我就提供一张图片做参考"},{"start":5297.515,"end":5323.016,"text":"就是說我們的關鍵性基礎設施它不是單一列名單列項目比方講能源發電廠電網醫療體系金融體系甚至通訊民間的這些廣播系統它產生了一個互聯性的關係我們從這個圖來看這個是用AI來幫我排序做的架構你看看這個複雜性有多少"},{"start":5324.485,"end":5339.387,"text":"它就不是单一的层次的问题所以它牵动了比方讲我们的发电设施电网设施地面的通讯机动通讯卫星通讯甚至金融服务医疗体系它有一个互联性的"},{"start":5340.488,"end":5354.441,"text":"網路那這個在櫃局裡面是一個非常重要的一個角色協助監控也是提供部會不同部會提醒它的重點那就是這個是屬於一個什麼預警什麼真後出現了"},{"start":5355.342,"end":5372.279,"text":"那么金融体系有一个状况保险增加了或者是天然气的迟到了就像灰色地带中共做这些嚇阻动作拦截了某一条天然气的船产生的结果这个图它会持续跟进的那后面一张我就特别介绍"},{"start":5373.618,"end":5401.338,"text":"这次花莲大水灾产生的结果就是马太安西的状况这个图是用美方的海洋大气总署的3D图做的这个图是灾前的河流的状况下我们国家在一流之后也有用不同的资料拿到的位照但是关键在我给您看一张"},{"start":5403.411,"end":5427.711,"text":"這是日本公布的衛星照片也就是它這個雁塞湖不管你講潰堤或是溢流它整個沖下來已經不只是說我們那個堤防缺口了它實際是從山坡後面就直接沖下來那這種狀況下如果貴單位能夠也有一個共同圖像的平台"},{"start":5428.371,"end":5450.186,"text":"协助我们政府因为国军也有在做救灾进去可是我们并没有及时的卫照去focus on这个灾情状况那希望贵局除了在威胁以外天然灾害的威胁也能够跟友好国家取得一个卫照经过校正泡碟那你看完这个图就知道并不是想象中公布的"},{"start":5450.606,"end":5475.958,"text":"完全是河川然後一流把堤防沖掉從破口進來它實際上已經從我們住宅區的後面從山上沖下來了這個圖像也是運用一些工情資料結合衛照結合我們講的共同圖像套疊做3D的參考這個上面以上提供局長做參考您看看有沒有什麼指導回應好"},{"start":5477.078,"end":5504.134,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為委員每次在詢答的過程當中都很有系統性的來提示我們應該要注意到的一些相關國安議題在國家安全戰略部分我們在內部討論我會轉達委員的意見相關的一個重要性第二部分是在通訊跟資安的韌性我想我們也曾經跟委員報告過這一部分一直是本局一個業務的重點我們會以現有的基礎持續的來提升我們在這一方面防護的一個量能"},{"start":5504.554,"end":5527.815,"text":"特別在政府內部討論的時候也要來注意一下跨部會的協調的部分第三個部分是有關於添災的部分也確實跟委員報告在這一次的災情之後我們是有用衛照去了解相關災情的狀況衛照收集之後我們去了解它溢流的位置以及水量在溢流之後的變化以及溢流之後對於周邊鄉鎮的影響"},{"start":5529.096,"end":5557.003,"text":"那相關資料我有提供給國防部那我也有提供給內政部部長那希望他們在做救災指揮的時候能夠有一個空照鳥看比較全局的一個局面那在相關的救災兵力的調度上也比較能夠有系統的來處理那謝謝委員指導我們會繼續往這方向來努力好 謝謝局長我們大家共同努力謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳永康委員 局長請回接下來進行詢問委員是羅美玲委員"},{"start":5566.383,"end":5568.292,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長來 局長請"},{"start":5575.556,"end":5601.623,"text":"主席早 羅委員早局長早 局長剛剛你有提到就是說中共擴大對我國的其實它滲透的手法已經到了五花八門的地步同時我們也提到就是說中共很密集對我們的妄害竊取機密甚至來做威懾我們從過去所知很多的攻擊或者滲透其實大部分都是來自於境外"},{"start":5602.043,"end":5606.708,"text":"可是今年9月份 央廣的官網的首頁被入侵了然後它首頁被置換為中國的五星旗甚至在9月19號、25號連續遭到網攻 造成整個系統的癱瘓當然第一時間我們會想說 這個又是來自於境外的駭客的入侵"},{"start":5625.866,"end":5652.326,"text":"可是經過調查之後才發現原來是陽廣內部的工程師所為當然我們有很多的專家學者就在提到了這是不是又是另外的中國的認知作戰的手法之一局長您如何看待陽廣被入侵的狀態會不會是國內的協力者跟中國所引起的一個國安的事件這個有沒有一些跡象來顯示"},{"start":5653.487,"end":5677.881,"text":"有 這個問題我們有在注意因為央廣也算是重要的一個政府的一個關鍵的重要設施因為它涉及到大眾傳播所以這個案子一發生我們就有在注意那第二個部分是這個案子確實有央廣內部的人員因為有外洩一些治安的資訊引發相關的一個犯罪偵訪的案件所以這案件檢調已經有在進行相關的調查"},{"start":5679.082,"end":5700.211,"text":"那我們所了解的是 非常的積極的在處理據說我打岔一下 因為我剛有聽到你說他其實有外洩一些資料 所以他這個這個工程師他除了惡意的把這個首頁換成五星旗的網頁之外 其實他確確實實有外洩了一些"},{"start":5702.058,"end":5725.417,"text":"資訊出去嗎是這樣子的意思嗎因為剛剛您的說法我說明一下因為他在進行那個網路的內部的這種干擾的手法的時候他有涉及到他們內部的一些資訊就包括資安管理的一些資訊那這部分的資訊可能涉案相關的人他們有一些相關的一個資訊的"},{"start":5727.748,"end":5743.678,"text":"交流因為這大概是目前整個在處理的一個主要的一個方向至於有沒有外力的部分這部分可能要再由檢調這部分來做進一步的偵辦我們這邊要是有相關的情資的話也會提供給檢調單位來處理"},{"start":5745.347,"end":5772.704,"text":"所以目前有任何比較確實的情資嗎因為這案子還在正辦當中所以很多細節都不方便因為這個部分呢因為很敏感就是說他這個首頁呢至於五星期甚至呢媒體報導就是說可能還牽扯到一些政治人物我想這個部分的話國安單位可能要特別的來留意那好那再來我們要提到就是說其實我有看到就是說我們的報告裡面也整理出來了像"},{"start":5773.344,"end":5795.268,"text":"中國呢他這個滲透的這個方式真的是非常的多元像國安局這邊其實很早就已經有整理出來了現在鎖定這個退役軍人、新役軍人政府機關還有這個親中的組織那管道呢當然報告上面我也看到有黑道幫派、地下錢莊一些宮廟、民間社團等等那手法也是非常的多元像網路的勾連、金錢的這個利誘還有這個債務的脅迫等等"},{"start":5800.589,"end":5818.664,"text":"那其實之前我有看到某些專家學者都已經提到了其實不單單是這些手法那看起來這些手法好像是針對高層其實已經是全面的入侵因為我有看到一個高檢署的一個偵查的一個案件就是今年年初的時候他們有偵辦一個有關於這個國安有支持違反這個國安法的一個"},{"start":5824.869,"end":5852.692,"text":"案件那里面就有提到就是说有一个张姓的这个民众他就成立的这个军用品的这个这个这个公司这个商店那当然去的人可能很多都是警察啦或者是说军人军警很多然后大家就说我给你折扣可是你必须要出示你的证件那再来的话他必须把这些证件上面的资料比如说名字啦联络电话等等就是单位是可能也还有单位把他这个做记录下来"},{"start":5853.212,"end":5873.324,"text":"這跟一般上的就是上家給折扣的這個方式不太一樣一般上給折扣的話說你出示一下你的證件證明你的這個你有這個優惠的資格就OK了可是不是他做了所有的記錄那甚至呢他還辦了這個所謂的這個民房的這個座談那當然參加的這些這些人就發現說為什麼來的時候要寫非常仔細的一些資料"},{"start":5874.364,"end":5888.05,"text":"那時大家就覺得不太對勁所以這個我們可以發現說除了剛剛我們所提到的這些管道啦這些對象其實它幾乎已經到了前面入侵的部分你可能去買個東西你買個東西你可能就是會成為這個被諜報的這個對象"},{"start":5891.178,"end":5918.052,"text":"你的資料可能就是被後來也證實了偵辦的過程當中也證實了他也是經由這一些方式這個民眾這個開設這個經用品店的這個張姓的這個人他就把這些收集到的這些身份跟資料真的就是給中國了所以讓我們一般民眾根本防不勝防我們要如何判斷說我連去買個東西我可能就是會資料就是壞一些我資料可能就被送到中國去了這個民眾要如何防範呢"},{"start":5918.792,"end":5938.88,"text":"我想這部分也謝謝委員的質詢民眾的這種所謂的保防或保護各自的意識可能也要我們透過這樣的討論來讓民眾更加重視這個問題包括企業也是一樣企業也有一些企業的機敏的資訊可能也要注意到這種機敏資訊的保護"},{"start":5939.48,"end":5963.498,"text":"所以委員所提到的是民眾在消費行為的過程當中難免會留下一些個資我們還是會盡量來提醒在流用個資的過程當中可能還是要確認它的相關的一個必要性假如說是沒有必要的一個消費行為過程當中要留下個資的話我們會盡量提醒民眾可能要盡量避免這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":5964.218,"end":5991.553,"text":"因為這種個資被收集之後假如再經過大數據的運用的話就我們國安的角度來講它可能產生的影響會蠻大的不是只有你個人的傷害而是對於整個國家群體造成的一個影響是像過去的話像民眾他去做消費的時候可能考慮就是說我這個資料可能會被留到詐騙集團的手裡也許過去的認知就只有這樣可是我們現在發現不是這樣而已除了會流入詐騙集團你可能"},{"start":5992.273,"end":6015.819,"text":"可能你這些資料可能就會被送到中國去這個部分可能現在有很多民眾還沒有辦法意識到可能大家還停留在就是說我的資料可能被這些不法的這些人士可能就是轉賣給詐騙集團可能只停留在這裡可是可能還是沒有意識到說這個資料可能會跟國安有"},{"start":6017.36,"end":6038.452,"text":"對 可能這是一個破口對 這部分要特別利用這個機會應該跟大家做個說明跟報告那因為中共他有國家情報法的規定那假如是有中資的這種APP或是有中國的中資的電商的話那你在網路的這些消費的行為或使用APP的過程當中可能就有一些個資被收集了"},{"start":6038.832,"end":6066.229,"text":"那在中國的國家情報法的要求之下這些中資或中企他就必須要把這些他的客戶的資料來提供給中國的安全部門來參考運用所以我也是因為這樣的一個考量才會本局在之前有針對中資在國內比較流通的APP他的資安來做一個蠻全面的檢測用五個類別跟十五項的標準來認為他們對於個人的資訊的收集太超過一般的授權的權限"},{"start":6067.25,"end":6087.098,"text":"局長你現在講的這部分本來是我待會就是要繼續跟你做探討因為時間的關係你剛才所講到的Google Apps受到這個就是它有我知道你們之前有做過檢測就是有一些違規就是非常多的違規像小紅書微博抖音微信百度雲盤"},{"start":6088.339,"end":6101.558,"text":"這些是違規 都 項目非常的高尤其是小紅書是全面的這個違規可是問題是我們的民眾並不知道啊也許你使用這些APP的時候你的資訊 你的資料 你的個資全部都已經在中國了這是不是要加強來做這個宣導"},{"start":6103.52,"end":6131.495,"text":"因為事實上這方面的管制並不是國安局的夜管但國安局我們基於國家安全的需要以及對於中共收集國人個資的一個關切我們才會自己很積極主動的針對這些中資的APP來做治安的檢測那麼後續還會針對中資的一些產品來公告一些治安檢測的項目對 因為我是看到說你們確實是有做檢測你們跟一些國安單位其實今年就已經有公告了一些可是問題是到底多少民眾會去看這個資訊"},{"start":6132.555,"end":6155.495,"text":"有沒有意識到這個國安的危機所以我是這個部分的話我想說國安相關的單位應該要一起來想辦法讓民眾去了解我們這方面的檢測報告大概都也有跟媒體朋友來分享那也希望透過媒體的報導讓國人在這一方面的治安的警覺跟意識可以透過一次一次的社會的一個討論能夠持續的來提升謝謝委員來提醒 謝謝OK 好 謝謝 以上謝謝謝謝羅銘林委員 局長請回"},{"start":6169.656,"end":6172.657,"text":"好接下來有請王定宇召委謝謝主席麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長"},{"start":6189.211,"end":6212.27,"text":"謝謝主席 王委員早好 局長時間寶貴我幾件跟我們攸關國安還有相關的應處要就教於你那其他相關單位如果有需要補充說明的就可以自己上來我就不用再請第一個我們都知道最近中國其實連續三波公佈我方不管是資通電軍 軍情局或者是我們政戰局的新戰相關人員"},{"start":6213.331,"end":6234.983,"text":"那這樣子的目的你剛已經說明過我們就不再贅述那當然對國內中國的長臂管轄對台灣是無效的他的法律不及於我們國家的國內那他們做這個事情的荒謬在哪裡呢這就像幫派堂口發佈通緝警政署長一樣荒謬就是我們的國軍是在防衛我們的國家"},{"start":6236.618,"end":6265.428,"text":"做的是讓我們台灣納稅人值得尊敬的事情然後在軍事威脅台灣的人來發布這些名字內容當然我們就說這內容資料未必正確我們也不用幫他去核實幫他校正但這種荒謬的行為我剛才講的就像幫派他發布一個通緝令通緝張榮鑫這不僅荒謬這有很多該應處的事情所以本席今天要問的是具體的因應"},{"start":6266.817,"end":6294.231,"text":"第一個 他公布這個之後對於我們相關人員會有什麼樣的影響不管軍情局 資通電軍 或者星戰大隊未來可能還有所以各位將領 擔任主管是要注意一個情形我這邊有具體的個案其實這個案我已經進行了解相當的時間我隱匿掉相關的個資竟然有相關我們在我們機敏單位服役的人員"},{"start":6296.005,"end":6308.07,"text":"離退之後要辦理保險要辦理貸款被以中國有發布這樣的通緝當理由拒絕核貸 局長你知道這情形嗎"},{"start":6310.09,"end":6329.738,"text":"有聽到這樣的狀況,也有跟我們相關國防部、第二局、還有剛剛警政署長我們有討論了一下,那初步的判斷可能並沒有在洗錢房制上有正式的這樣的或警政的通報,沒有正式的通報這兩個銀行是公股銀行"},{"start":6330.698,"end":6353.695,"text":"他們只是根據媒體報導 哎呀 我們某個單位的人被發布了那個身份證號碼都有在上面嘛 被發布了結果呢 有類似的人去辦理房貸有一個是去辦理保險要更名結果竟然他說 你不行喔 你有涉嫌犯罪竟然用中共點名的資料"},{"start":6354.79,"end":6382.171,"text":"我們的公營航庫在執行他們的制裁這開什麼玩笑啊這因為這個東西我已經進行了相當時間那公股的航庫有這樣的情形其實已經不是要疏忽了根本是連一點國家意識安全意識都沒有各位這個擔任主管管的人可以想像一下你下面帶的"},{"start":6383.427,"end":6398.059,"text":"被中共發布名字結果他跑去辦貸款的時候說因為你被中國點名我不能貸給你所以局長這要怎麼辦我想大概幾個部分第一個我剛剛第一部分跟委員說明的是從那個洗錢房子或警政的通報並沒有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":6400.563,"end":6428.235,"text":"也就是說去通報到說你看我下面第二格寫的因為這些銀行都會現在AI跟Google太方便了他就一Google哎呀 蔡明彥被中國點名制裁我不能貸款給你你怎麼辦好 那第二個部分我要說明的是針對這個個案我們會來了解是不是像委員所說明的這個狀況還是有其他的原因而導致了他在申辦貸款過程當中遭到一些問題這是個案的部分第三個部分 通案的部分那我會後會跟金管會這邊來了解"},{"start":6430.256,"end":6451.436,"text":"這不允許喔銀行如果做這樣的事情我甚至去主張我們的銀行要處分喔是 沒有錯這我們會確實來了解這絕對不允許是不是有這樣的一個通案或類案那假如有這樣的狀況的話我們會請金管會這邊絕對的來現在台數太慢了我已經反映給你們相關單位幾個月了幾個月了我自己開過三次會了"},{"start":6453.719,"end":6460.463,"text":"我一開始舉那個荒謬的例子黑幫通緝張榮鑫就張榮鑫去銀行貸款說不行喔你被通緝我們不能貸款給你這樣子的行庫在幹嘛他是掛五星旗的嗎我們來瞭解然後再來我們針對中國這樣的樣態我們有沒有跟友盟進行溝通為什麼要跟友盟進行溝通友盟的態度有多重要呢中國是"},{"start":6482.165,"end":6487.7,"text":"Interpol國際行政組織的會員國我國不是他如果把這些名單"},{"start":6489.249,"end":6513.395,"text":"放進了國際行政組織的黃色名單 紅色名單我們這些相關人員在國際的遷徙 旅遊 進出第一個 會不會遇到問題第二個 風險的評估跟因應他們去到所謂的高風險國家也就是為北京馬首是瞻的國家有沒有被逮捕遞解的風險局長你們有沒有處理這一塊"},{"start":6514.955,"end":6538.724,"text":"對 這塊事實上應該由葉管來回答但是就我所知的來跟委員做個說明事實上在有這樣的一個名單公布之後因為我沒有辦法來證實他是不是我們國軍的人我沒有辦法證實萬一真的有的話那事實上國防部是有一個機制的他們會跟每一個萬一真的有的話每一個個人來了解他們目前在名單公布之後相關的一個狀況第一種情形是"},{"start":6539.81,"end":6552.679,"text":"他到一個我們覺得還不錯的自由民主國家去旅遊就因為他被放在國際刑警組織資料庫裡面被查扣下來了這是一種還有一種他去了對中國相當友好對我們不友善的國家"},{"start":6553.922,"end":6581.004,"text":"被抓起來了我不希望到那一刻這兩種情形發生之後我們才有所謂的營救行動而是事前做好兩件事情跟有盟國家跟國際行政組織做好溝通避免發生第二個做好風險的評估告訴相關他們也許因為中國公佈的名單不一定正確但我們確實有這些從業人員讓他們知道說哪幾國不要去喔去了你有可能有什麼風險你們有沒有做這樣的處理"},{"start":6582.53,"end":6600.316,"text":"這部分應該國防部這邊針對萬一真的有這樣的名單的對象的話那他有一個機制在提醒一些相關的事項那第三個國內的處理所該講銀行那個荒謬情形以外國內如果幫忙蒐集名單"},{"start":6602.549,"end":6624.65,"text":"幫忙公布說這些是他所認同的祖國發布的名單大家看到幫忙標註 幫忙登錄 幫忙標註他的地點 外貌 行貌如果國內有人做這樣的協作者 附和者甚至幫忙分享公布這樣的資料 有沒有違法當然 這會違反反滲透法跟國安法 都有違反目前有沒有這樣樣態"},{"start":6626.372,"end":6645.411,"text":"呃 有涉及到個案的部分我想我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員做說沒有 我沒有講個案有沒有這樣的樣態有沒有在查處我們有在注意要有這樣的嚇阻啊對 我們有在注意所以有這樣的樣態我們有在偵辦中也就是去分享說這個這些是志通電軍的哈大家看到他把他標註出來喔 兄弟啊 我等你"},{"start":6647.964,"end":6674.636,"text":"對於元首對我們國家的國軍都不能夠做這樣的事情該偵辦要偵辦當然所以目前有這樣子的案情正在你們在處理當中相關的狀況事實上剛剛羅委員也特別有提到就是有沒有一些相關的資訊的收集那這些資訊的收集之後還會流漏到對岸去那這部分的一個資訊的流通或有沒有相關金流的流通我們都有在處理對這種的附和者協作者"},{"start":6675.41,"end":6683.066,"text":"如果他不是罵髒話要辦的話其實有辦到要立即揭露出來去嚇阻這樣子的"},{"start":6683.996,"end":6712.277,"text":"犯罪可以了解委員的關切但假如是真的在查辦過程當中因為他還是有刑事訴訟法的規範當然還是要按照證據法條但是對於這一種把叛國當作進出便利商店一樣方便的人其實要我們國家要有一定的安全嚇阻力量大概都是在檢方起訴之後會把案情來做一些收整來對外做另外有一題我來不及問了時間關係我提出來我下次我希望有完整的報告我們常常在相關的機敏我們的"},{"start":6713.558,"end":6740.919,"text":"業務報告或者是公開報告裡面目前我們有看到比較詳實評估俄羅斯俄軍在中共侵台的角色四個角色原來我們的評估他都是牽制性的角色兩線牽制在歐洲發動事情讓美國相關的友盟調派產生困難其他還有一種是參與的角色軍備提供的角色還有一個是情報分享的角色我有一個表格"},{"start":6742.742,"end":6759.519,"text":"我這個表格請你注意在C1 N3 N4 N5這幾個地方不管是宮古海峽 巴士海峽或者是台海周邊或菲律賓的北側其實這些地方都有俄羅斯的軍艦跟軍機參與或出現"},{"start":6763.823,"end":6780.657,"text":"而在他那個位置未來中共發起侵略台灣的戰爭的時候俄羅斯軍隊的直接角色是什麼我目前沒有看到國防部我也沒有看到我們國安局有相關評估未來我希望看到這一部分你們能夠有相關的報告可以給本委員會"},{"start":6782.158,"end":6803.198,"text":"簡單一句話的說明就這一部分事實上不只是台灣關注我們周邊的有門國家都非常的關注那對於中俄的一些軍事演習或協同的活動那他的一個活動的一個狀況演習的科目我們都有掌握那也會針對這些活動狀況跟演習科目對區域跟台海意涵也都有一些情緒的交換我這兩個題目我希望在"},{"start":6804.099,"end":6833.207,"text":"你們可以的時間內提供報告有關對於中國對台灣這樣子的相關的國軍 機敏人員所做的動作我們在風險評估協助應處相關的報告給本集跟本委會那該機密提供的你就機密提供另外俄羅斯的我講的是直接角色軍隊的直接角色 牽制角色情報共享角色 軍備角色對台灣安全的危險這一個部分也希望能夠有一份可以讓我們"},{"start":6833.547,"end":6843.134,"text":"好報告部分我們會盡速來完成那假如有機密的部分我們跟委員面報謝謝謝謝謝謝王定宇召委接下來有請沈博洋委員謝謝主席有請蔡局長來局長請"},{"start":6864.794,"end":6888.379,"text":"謝謝主席 社會委員長局長早一開始我想我今天想就一些修法的內容想要來做一些討論在這一次的夜報裡面有提到我國的國安威脅提到這五點我今天想針對後面這三個一個是統戰滲透的工作第四個關於妄害竊取個資還有去用技術去擾亂我國輿論的場域"},{"start":6890.319,"end":6907.025,"text":"最後一點剛剛其實美領委員其實有問了所以我大概總共在第三 第四點這一個我是想問一下局長就是說局長應該也知道這樣的一個歷史就是當年的中立事件當年的中立事件其實海外的這些留學生等等之類的有很多的抗議的活動"},{"start":6907.945,"end":6927.178,"text":"抗議的活動在這些人出席的時候就有這種海外的留學生去那邊拍照拍照之後再把這一個照片回傳到國內以當時的歷史的氛圍台灣那時候是有一些惡法的存在而這些惡法的存在會導致在海外的留學生參與了這些活動可能會受到處罰"},{"start":6929.64,"end":6957.377,"text":"所以在那個黨國體制之下在這個海外做這些偷拍的行動等等之類的對內的這種政治征訪我認為是極其嚴重的事情這個也延遲到國安局的業務是因為後來國安局就非常的強調我們做的是對外我們針對的是比如說境外的敵對勢力我們不做對內的政治征訪但因為現在台灣民主化之後現在變得有點詭異是在於說雖然我們現在的國家不需要這些"},{"start":6958.197,"end":6984.372,"text":"有的沒的這些資料不需要這些移動這些到底參與了什麼活動啊抗議什麼內容啊但是呢我們開始呢有另外一個境外我們有一個境外敵對勢力就是中國他會有一些重點想要觀察重點想要竊取各自的對象那這些竊取各自如果說他是單純的駭客活動啊等等之類的那一個本來就已經有法律所處罰但現在麻煩的是比如說這些公眾人物的出入"},{"start":6985.152,"end":7003.271,"text":"他都在哪一些餐廳用餐他都見了誰然後他私人的生活他的家人有幾位他的家人是念哪一個小學然後這些人最常在哪裡聚會這一些資訊你很難說他是在國家機密的保護裡面"},{"start":7004.372,"end":7032.652,"text":"但這個都是中共想要的資料我記得我前陣子在暗網上面也看到就是我就不要講這上面的哪一個人物就是在暗網上面我就有看到有些人的通聯記錄就被公開在暗網上面在上面販賣這些資料到底怎麼取得那是駭客活動它本來就有法律可以處罰是真是假我們也不知道但我現在講的就是公開場合公開活動看起來沒有任何法律的規範這個時候我們的這些反滲透法的規範裡面"},{"start":7033.993,"end":7052.775,"text":"本來有說到第一個條件叫做境外敵對勢力的指示委託跟資助但我現在覺得麻煩的事情就是有時候它跟指示委託資助沒有關係比如說它可能是在台灣它可能跟狗仔合作它拍攝了大量的這一些照片跟影片但它是事後"},{"start":7053.556,"end":7072.255,"text":"交給這一個境外敵對勢力那如果是這個樣子的話呢在前面我們可能找不到只是委託跟資助的證據那它卻有事後交付而這個在反滲透法裡面第一個它在第一個條件就可能不被規範然後再來第二個就是本來的反滲透法它一定要搭配一些違法行為嘛這些違法行為這個"},{"start":7073.556,"end":7094.693,"text":"我们最熟知的可能是选罢法可能是这一个游说工作妨碍选举但我刚刚讲的这些公众人物尤其是我们刚刚讲的前面的这一些人物行政院长 秘书长 立委等等之类这个并没有在选举的期间它也没有在选罢法的规范里面所以它在我刚刚讲的那些太阳也不存在"},{"start":7095.353,"end":7112.336,"text":"那就變成說如果反滲透法在這邊呢第一個條件它沒有第二個條件它也沒有那明明這是一個國安問題那這是中共想要的資料它也想辦法用滲透的方式來取得但這個時候呢我們不管是國安局還是調查局可能會失去那樣的一個牙齒"},{"start":7113.277,"end":7140.408,"text":"然後呢發動相關的一個偵查所以目前來講我想知道就是說因為畢竟呢我們可以看到在這一個這幾天的新聞報導裡面我們已經有國安官員透露說近年國際有多位政府官員受到暴力的襲擊啊刺殺等等的狀況也涉及到境外的主導那我們呢也有這一個呢這個相關的人員說明顯的感受到自己有被跟蹤那在這樣的一個情況之下我們現在到底該如何是好"},{"start":7142.021,"end":7167.51,"text":"對 針對這部分以目前的法律來講那跟拍的行為來講主要可能還是違反的是刑法的妨礙秘密罪那另外可能還有這個資保護法相關所謂非法去收集個人資料罪這大概是目前偵辦也是警方跟檢方他切入的一個法律的一個角度那委員所提到的確實也反映出來我們在國安法制包括國安法或反生鬥法"},{"start":7167.91,"end":7193.002,"text":"那怎麼樣來針對委員剛剛所描述的這樣的一個行為有更嚴謹的一個法律規範那這部分事實上前一陣子行政院也有進行一些跨部會的修法的一些討論那國安局也有去表達一些意見那針對這個跟拍的部分那怎麼樣在相關的法規裡面再加強一些條文來做一些規範那我想這後續我們再查處這樣的案件的話會比較有一個法律要件的依據"},{"start":7193.442,"end":7213.395,"text":"好 那這個可能再請局長待會兒去院會做一些相關的討論我自己是有提一個類似的一個修法就是我們在講這個反滲透法的時候前面我們剛剛講的第一個條件這個委託啦 指示啦等等之類這第一個條件我沒有動但第二個條件呢我把它增訂了個資法第五章因為個資法第五章本身就是個資的收集那"},{"start":7213.795,"end":7240.046,"text":"但是因為他沒有在反滲透法裡面那現在如果把剛剛那個行為太陽多了一個個資法相關的那就可以把剛剛那個類似的情形至少我們把比如說中共直接做指示然後在地的協力者然後去蒐集大量的個資尤其是政要的個資這絕對是在戰爭之後非常危險的事情嘛我覺得這可能是一個路徑但他可能沒有辦法解決的就是我剛剛講的第三點如果他只是先蒐集蒐集之後他跟中國一點關係都沒有"},{"start":7240.586,"end":7259.685,"text":"但他事後去做了提供而這個提供背後的原因我們可能無法得知因為很難去查處它可能發生在境外所以在這個第三點到底該怎麼辦呢這個我還在思考所以可能請局裡面可能來想這件事情那還有關於第一點這個散播不死謠言就剛剛在前面我們剛剛講國安局的這個"},{"start":7260.854,"end":7280.474,"text":"報告裡面說中共利用這個新興的技術擾亂我國輿論的場域我就看到最近這一個國民黨的黨主席在選舉他們裡面自己就有提到說有這個中國境外勢力的介入裡面我還看到他這個這位是趙少康他還去公佈說有幾支影片什麼等等之類的"},{"start":7281.235,"end":7294.438,"text":"雖然跟選舉比起來這個量體並沒有那麼的大我看到他有提到有八個頻道做了什麼事情有多少的影片但如果我沒有記錯的話在去年選舉的時候應該說2023年應該說已經是前年了那個時候Google也就是YouTube一天是移除中國200個頻道所以那個scale那一個維度是比這個更大的"},{"start":7306.48,"end":7325.119,"text":"但這邊就反映出來一個問題是因為國民黨的黨主席選舉它不是一個國家中選會所舉辦的選舉所以它也不在我們直接選罷法跟反滲透法的規範裡面但是如果今天中共去介入了一個黨的黨主席的選舉這顯然也還是國安的危機嘛"},{"start":7325.359,"end":7345.508,"text":"那是國民黨自己講出來的所以這個問題到底該如何是好我們有在思考就是說當然我們如果把這個反送中法境外敵對勢力的一個指示把它納入到所有政黨相關的事務可能也太多但黨主席的選舉這一件事情有沒有可能在這邊做法律的規範是不是請國安局也可以可能研擬跟思考看看"},{"start":7345.814,"end":7367.979,"text":"好 謝委員的提醒事實上今天到會場之前媒體也有在關注這個案子那以目前來講大概能夠運用的法律工具只有刑法的毀謗罪就大概那個方向那針對那個國安法或反滲透法那目前並沒有條文可以去查處偵辦外力來介入到國內的相關社團或政黨內部的選舉目前沒有"},{"start":7368.539,"end":7383.407,"text":"對 所以可能這一部分我們後續再來依照目前新的這種案例跟樣態來看法律條文上怎麼樣來加注一些新的這種行為規範那到時候假如委員這邊有相關提案我們也非常樂意跟委員辦公室這邊來交換意見"},{"start":7384.528,"end":7403.766,"text":"不好意思 主席再三十秒就是說我認為兩條路徑第一條路徑就是我們不去講說黨主席選舉把它納入到這個反社會法的規範而是利用謠言的散播這件事情只要是比如說中共只是在台灣在地協力者散播謠言這個進入到反社會法這是一種方式以往我們有 但只針對選舉"},{"start":7404.827,"end":7432.186,"text":"但如果我們不要針對選舉比如說假設今天跟民生物資有關的跟黨主席有關的任何有關相關的謠言那我們把謠言做一些特定不要所有的謠言都納入規範這是一種做法還有一句話我補充一下因為這還有涉及到的是網路上散佈的AI生成的影片目前在法律規範也有不足的地方所以這部分看後續是不是在人工智慧基本法或是在相關的資通安全管理法"},{"start":7432.566,"end":7460.203,"text":"那可能也要有類似的討論或是個資法也可以有類似的一個條文討論讓一旦有AI生成去涉及到毀謗的動作的話可以強迫我們相關的業者必須要下架我在畫面的左邊這邊是我提的跟謠言有關的這是一種另外一種就我剛剛講的直接把可能像比如說黨主席的這種選舉納入到規範這也是一種但至少我們現在已經發現一件事情就是雖然比如說今天在野黨喊說這個就應該要調查什麼之類的但其實法律工具是不足的"},{"start":7460.623,"end":7478.107,"text":"那法律工具不足就是因為我們有些法案卡在這邊沒有辦法去討論跟通過那我們希望這件事情能夠發生那我們也才能夠如我覺得這個是各黨的共識中國的介入是應該要查處中共的介入是應該要monitor這件事情是大家都應該要同意的有 這部分看法跟我一樣"},{"start":7479.107,"end":7496.957,"text":"謝謝局長 謝謝主席謝謝委員那個國安局有就那個AI基本法有關AI生成影片造謠啦你看這次有討論過行政院這邊林明熙政委他有在處理我們有討論 謝謝好 請回好 接下來進行詢問的委員是馬文君委員謝謝主席 麻煩請局長"},{"start":7516.209,"end":7517.191,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩你早"},{"start":7518.014,"end":7536.299,"text":"局長早 局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就是這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局 新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個"},{"start":7547.903,"end":7566.375,"text":"還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了資通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊"},{"start":7568.797,"end":7572.901,"text":"一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為"},{"start":7590.356,"end":7593.999,"text":"除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們"},{"start":7616.015,"end":7617.477,"text":"除了剛剛王朝偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被"},{"start":7632.216,"end":7635.518,"text":"公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣"},{"start":7655.418,"end":7657.56,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護"},{"start":7677.154,"end":7700.148,"text":"那之後再處理上 等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒 可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人 可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會收到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話"},{"start":7700.928,"end":7712.76,"text":"要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面我剛剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份"},{"start":7713.991,"end":7731.934,"text":"名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報"},{"start":7732.415,"end":7736.756,"text":"沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常"},{"start":7761.143,"end":7768.506,"text":"長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道"},{"start":7779.15,"end":7782.772,"text":"可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請"},{"start":7803.962,"end":7806.743,"text":"國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公佈那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞"},{"start":7827.954,"end":7842.858,"text":"這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明"},{"start":7853.641,"end":7876.252,"text":"因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長"},{"start":7881.354,"end":7886.818,"text":"其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗"},{"start":7899.628,"end":7923.221,"text":"可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在 坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民"},{"start":7926.423,"end":7930.266,"text":"那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊"},{"start":7944.617,"end":7951.701,"text":"他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做"},{"start":7963.487,"end":7964.928,"text":"剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼"},{"start":7977.253,"end":7993.217,"text":"而且還是我們國安局下令的喔這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要再更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整的話這已經不是溝通 局長"},{"start":8005.88,"end":8016.509,"text":"你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個 合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人"},{"start":8027.057,"end":8030.779,"text":"他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記"},{"start":8048.45,"end":8054.875,"text":"註記的時間有多長 有沒有這我們來了解 因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好 那我現在就把問題提出來這是非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的"},{"start":8075.509,"end":8100.273,"text":"如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好"},{"start":8105.074,"end":8108.436,"text":"這我也說明一下 就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的技巧上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統 副總統 從過去到現在都一樣你有總統 副總統 行政院長 或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好"},{"start":8126.104,"end":8130.527,"text":"其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎"},{"start":8152.299,"end":8167.201,"text":"安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好 一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好不好一個禮拜可以嗎 夠不夠可以 好 這一個很簡單的問題 謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員 各位請回接下來進行詢問的委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":8189.577,"end":8190.56,"text":"三位麻煩請局長來 局長"},{"start":8200.11,"end":8224.849,"text":"謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說"},{"start":8225.99,"end":8249.356,"text":"有一句話我想要請局長請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核委員說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核目前就你們的了解好 個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話"},{"start":8250.296,"end":8271.727,"text":"那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的"},{"start":8272.868,"end":8282.044,"text":"那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍"},{"start":8283.243,"end":8304.46,"text":"那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多"},{"start":8305.04,"end":8329.701,"text":"那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動它非常的積極那也佈建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的一個組織那另外一個部分是在於說"},{"start":8330.822,"end":8352.413,"text":"這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制那不只是國安情報團隊我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制那所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見"},{"start":8352.953,"end":8369.338,"text":"他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到"},{"start":8369.938,"end":8397.61,"text":"那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是它沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內"},{"start":8400.354,"end":8417.334,"text":"国安会秘书长他的这个秘书那后来跟他外交部都有类似这样的状况这其实是非常严肃的问题所以我必须要提到说我们不能够在事后抓到那包含我现在手上的这个是美国国防部的反情报及安全署的这些资讯也就是说如果我们"},{"start":8418.223,"end":8438.152,"text":"沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制"},{"start":8438.792,"end":8464.483,"text":"你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局 不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部 衛福部 健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全 資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情"},{"start":8465.287,"end":8490.555,"text":"因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話"},{"start":8491.872,"end":8517.892,"text":"麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事物的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次"},{"start":8519.758,"end":8539.623,"text":"一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過"},{"start":8540.922,"end":8557.881,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替無比署長來說明我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會"},{"start":8559.442,"end":8581.532,"text":"從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊"},{"start":8582.592,"end":8599.08,"text":"所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫 智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去"},{"start":8601.803,"end":8628.883,"text":"如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風勢也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐"},{"start":8631.405,"end":8650.106,"text":"或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範"},{"start":8651.047,"end":8668.061,"text":"那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是 這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來"},{"start":8669.702,"end":8698.864,"text":"要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統他確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話我會來再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借權這件事情我是很"},{"start":8699.364,"end":8726.052,"text":"很重視因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化"},{"start":8726.977,"end":8754.45,"text":"然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟"},{"start":8754.73,"end":8775.414,"text":"最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 各位請回好 接下來進行詢問的委員是林楚瑩委員"},{"start":8789.291,"end":8814.405,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請國安局蔡局長以及我們法務部那個法務部調查局的陳百利 陳局長好 兩位好 謝謝主席 林委員早好 因為時間有限 我直接就切入主題喔那就是這個過去喔 我們都是擔心所謂的境外勢力包括剛剛提到的這個中國的透過境外網軍來介入國民黨 在野黨黨主席的選舉喔"},{"start":8815.385,"end":8826.593,"text":"那麼其實媒體的滲透一直都存在在今年6月6號的時候王滬寧密會台灣高層這個事情也不是秘密了他還要求這個台灣的媒體對於這個促進統戰的宣傳不要做表面功夫當時我們認為說這個只是民間的媒體所以說這個我們只能請媒體自律畢竟台灣是一個言論自由的國家但是如果今天連央廣"},{"start":8841.624,"end":8858.077,"text":"也就是我們國家的廣播的這樣的一個對外宣傳都已經出現自導自演放上五星旗我想就叫兩位局長這到底是一個犯罪事件還是一個國安事件首先我想要先請"},{"start":8860.118,"end":8887.687,"text":"陳局長好了局長我想這個是檢調單位正在調查當中你不用回答個案但是這是不是表示在我們國家的媒體當中已經出現了這樣的一個外部勢力的滲透還是說這個只是一個不經意的犯罪行為我完全同意那個委員的看法對 這應該是一個國安的議題我們應該要把它當作是一個國安的案件來看待"},{"start":8887.967,"end":8907.606,"text":"好 我會特別請局長上來的原因是因為我們看到中央社有記者潛入政府的官員內閣閣員跟立法委員的家裡的地下停車場來租這個車位之後中央社的做法是把它"},{"start":8908.507,"end":8910.029,"text":"免職 就是開除他啦但是央廣到目前為止只是停職 這很奇怪耶就是你自己內部配合就是說有人把五星級放上去也知道就是內部員工做的了"},{"start":8923.965,"end":8941.347,"text":"但是只停職那這個會不會可能還有更糟蹋的包庇有關於案件我不會下指導棋但是我提供這個角度我希望能夠再繼續的向上追查而不是只是好像這個人說了然後就好像只有他的事情"},{"start":8942.348,"end":8956.986,"text":"本案的主嫌檢察官是第一時間是有生壓但後來是交保那對那至於央廣對他們的員工要做怎麼樣的一個那個我們要尊重央廣是我尊重但是好謝謝我局長可以請回"},{"start":8958.682,"end":8970.735,"text":"那我就請 就叫蔡局長像這樣的一個內部自己搞破壞而且是直接已經進入了國家的媒體當中喔這個會不會是過去我知道我們這個國安局喔都是這個所謂諮詢的機構但是會不會是因為相關的法規同樣這裡也出現所謂法規有不足之處"},{"start":8977.262,"end":8991.431,"text":"因為它已經是從內部人員來做搞破壞的動作過去之前剛剛也提到了我們有國會的助理成為共諜的案子當時在資通安全法管理第19條第一項有說公務機關必要時得"},{"start":8992.472,"end":9011.243,"text":"所屬的資通安全專職的人員進行事任性的查核言下之意就是得但不是必要這個會不會也是另外一個破洞變成是當你內部出現了外部干預把壞份子放進去把老鼠屎放進去的時候法規有不足之處"},{"start":9012.208,"end":9040.195,"text":"對 因為本身央廣它算是重要的關鍵基礎設施之一因為它是負責公共傳播的部分所以在案件發生之後我們也非常的重視那也有注意到兩個面向的問題一個部分是犯罪的偵查的部分那這部分剛剛陳局長已經有跟委員做說明那這部分所運用的法律大概是刑法的背信罪這個角度去切入那至於有沒有境外勢力的介入這部分我們要再查查"},{"start":9040.635,"end":9062.294,"text":"包括到金流或是有沒有像有一些相關的聯繫或指示的一些事證那假如這方面的機證的話我們也會提供給檢調單位來了解看他的行為裡面有沒有涉及到一些比較公務機密或是因為資安而造成一些相關內部資安管理或其他的危害這我們再來了解"},{"start":9062.834,"end":9080.4,"text":"因為本席要特別提醒的就是有關於法規的不足的部分在這裡是不是也一起有關於資安的部分尤其是公務機關相關的人員的部分應該也要加強在法規上面的我們也希望就是國安局可以提供相關的單位不論是數位部或者是相關單位在修法上面的更多的意見"},{"start":9082.02,"end":9105.717,"text":"好 謝謝下一題我要來問的是有關於喔其實我在這個退府會的質詢的時候有特別提到那就是今年7月我們講到的相關的這個國防國家安全的所謂社會防衛任性的部分的時候提到了就是有關於退府會轄下的北融或相關的機關他們在物流的時候使用了具有疑似中資"},{"start":9107.678,"end":9112.866,"text":"這所謂資金在內的這樣的一個物流的相關的這個運輸的物流鏈喔那當時北榮的講法就是說因為他們所這個合約的藥商喔他們只打藥商之間的合約那麼沒有辦法去規定藥商使用"},{"start":9124.002,"end":9134.173,"text":"哪一個所謂物流公司但是我想這個案子發展到現在其實不是只有北榮包括台大在內我想要就叫局長的事您來看這個圖我想這個圖您也不陌生這個叫做郭孔華的"},{"start":9139.138,"end":9146.421,"text":"他是除了是北京市政委委員之外中國新聞網把他認為是所謂新橋代表還說我們有責任讓外界更了解中國人民網也幫他說了他在上海累積投資高達600億元顯見這樣的人中國把他捧在首賞心而這樣的人如果他身為台灣"},{"start":9164.85,"end":9186.804,"text":"物流業當中資金的一份則重要的人士的時候在這個部分我們是不是必須要有其他的法規的修正尤其是我們也都知道如果一旦發生戰爭的時候這樣的所謂藥物的物流鏈或者是甚至於所謂的這種供應鏈的部分都是非常重要的局長你怎麼來看這個"},{"start":9188.265,"end":9214.56,"text":"這問題我們有在注意因為這種物流鏈它可能涉及到相關冷鏈、物品、藥品傳送過程當中會掌控到一些相關的物流甚至也有可能這些物流業也有在我們的科學園區來針對生技業者它的相關進出運送貨物的一些細節還有接收貨物的對象可以被掌握所以我們非常的重視"},{"start":9215.3,"end":9237.766,"text":"在處理上大概有兩個層次跟委員報告第一個是大家的資金結構有沒有涉及到中資這個部分因為在審查的時候沒有但是我們後來有向委員所提示的這些相關的上游的資金結構的狀況我們在掌握資料之後已經有通報到經濟部經濟部在投資審查部分可以來重新審視包括"},{"start":9238.266,"end":9259.315,"text":"是不是他在香港的母公司有所謂政協委員的這個身份那我們會請相關在台的公司來提供這種股權結構的說明這是第一部分第二部分是有涉及到假如是科學園區的部分他的業館可能有包括到是我們的國科會跟我們的衛福部那這部分我們也有進行一些跨部會的協調未來"},{"start":9260.655,"end":9283.079,"text":"怎麼樣來規範那可能涉及到外資或是中資來介入到我們這些重要的物流業那假如是外資的話即使是外資不是中資外資的話還是可以用外資投資審查辦法當中的第七條國安的因素禁止這一類有問題的外資來投入我們的涉及到國安的相關的一個產業假如是中資的話那更不允許"},{"start":9283.359,"end":9301.767,"text":"好 局長這個部分你其實解釋得非常清楚我們可以看到從這一張圖就知道說他的孫公司或子公司在台灣而他往上延伸是有中資的色彩在裡頭而本席剩下最後一點點時間我跟主席借個一分鐘就是我們看到我們目前針對所謂中資或僑外資尤其是中資來台灣都是修正一個是在2012年一個在2018年一個是所謂的正面表列誰可以來"},{"start":9311.892,"end":9334.985,"text":"另外一個是負面表列誰不能來但是在這個部分通通沒有把物流業放進來但是我相信剛剛在局長的回應當中已經非常清楚的知道當戰爭爆發的時候物流業它可以成為助力也可以成為對方要入侵台灣的時候的一個主力甚至於非常重要的在地協力者"},{"start":9335.365,"end":9362.277,"text":"所以這個部分要修法的主管機關我知道是經濟部但是我也希望就像局長剛剛說的跟經濟部在做意見交流的時候我認為是該修法了不然會跟不上現在所謂中資或者是境外資金進入來滲透台灣或影響台灣安全的這個部分對 這我們會繼續來注意它涉及到的有國安以外還有我們的產業安全的部分我們繼續來跟其他部會來加強聯繫那來擦除這樣的案件"},{"start":9363.477,"end":9376.704,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主委員那個局長高雄港的65、66號碼頭東方海外那個這也一定要注意一下好 請坐好 謝謝接下來進行詢答的委員是許巧欣委員謝謝主席我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來 局長請"},{"start":9397.725,"end":9414.61,"text":"好 謝謝主席 許惟華局長好我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到就有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那你也提出了這個相關的數量"},{"start":9415.631,"end":9431.072,"text":"像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害"},{"start":9431.613,"end":9456.536,"text":"那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息"},{"start":9457.657,"end":9461.901,"text":"因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判"},{"start":9483.26,"end":9505.443,"text":"那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊"},{"start":9506.504,"end":9512.53,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題事實上對於經衛勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈我們有一個查找的系統我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網絡當中會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊有沒有具體的案例"},{"start":9533.268,"end":9562.648,"text":"有 這個案例非常的多我知道 我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這也是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破的情況我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例"},{"start":9563.608,"end":9583.497,"text":"非常多啊 不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬"},{"start":9590.1,"end":9601.332,"text":"真言說瞎話你在哽咽什麼啦你在哭什麼哭沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌沒出息那您認為他是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的"},{"start":9614.088,"end":9636.615,"text":"大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況 你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況 你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎 國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員 王逸川委員說不可以聽 因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢"},{"start":9642.637,"end":9667.783,"text":"我跟委員說明一下這有兩個層面第一個我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化這第一個部分第二個個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共"},{"start":9668.643,"end":9684.537,"text":"用他有做一個 假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息 然後來統戰台灣然後呢 那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查"},{"start":9685.638,"end":9703.238,"text":"那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染"},{"start":9703.738,"end":9722.591,"text":"那請問一下 這個就是類似的情況啊那你們 要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分 假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分 一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分 涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分 在國家重大的災情或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好 所以我們可以看到二創的部分 來"},{"start":9732.816,"end":9753.522,"text":"我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查"},{"start":9756.553,"end":9785.717,"text":"委員提到的是政黨的選舉 不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢"},{"start":9786.377,"end":9809.671,"text":"你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會由國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響"},{"start":9810.031,"end":9829.81,"text":"要看他的一個案情 我剛經過委員說明過了所以嘛 我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話 那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局不應該有反應嗎"},{"start":9831.311,"end":9857.934,"text":"第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們去研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如詹勳的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為救災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題啊太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題"},{"start":9858.795,"end":9876.846,"text":"不是啊 那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢 那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀 這個是統戰哎呀 這個是 這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候 那請問一下那"},{"start":9886.631,"end":9904.559,"text":"我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是"},{"start":9905.939,"end":9914.788,"text":"大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了"},{"start":9921.876,"end":9927.961,"text":"現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135 136 138 140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢"},{"start":9945.957,"end":9952.405,"text":"員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了"},{"start":9961.556,"end":9979.003,"text":"那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎"},{"start":9979.703,"end":9988.329,"text":"請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況啦那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解啦那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好"},{"start":10007.222,"end":10028.061,"text":"就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話"},{"start":10031.144,"end":10050.068,"text":"我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊我只是說你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛"},{"start":10056.85,"end":10071.908,"text":"過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說啊這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾"},{"start":10072.529,"end":10087.414,"text":"不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議"},{"start":10097.998,"end":10104.642,"text":"好 謝謝 意思解答完整了 請回 謝謝接下來進行詢答的委員是王宏威委員時間4分鐘好 謝謝主席 請我們蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 王委員早好 局長好"},{"start":10124.437,"end":10145.492,"text":"那個前兩天日本媒體報導特別談到台灣在美中關係之間而且最主要的就是我們對外簽署相關的貿易協定那麼日媒就是日經新聞他直接說說我們因為受到中美"},{"start":10146.272,"end":10168.772,"text":"的夾擊的困境所以呢台灣簽貿易協定卻遭世界各國冷落這裡面主要是談到我們跟加拿大事實上已經談定但是呢但是其實沒有辦法簽署這個協定那我想台灣我們其實對外貿易是我們非常非常重要的一個環節"},{"start":10169.933,"end":10196.042,"text":"那麼尤其我們現在也在面臨整個的美國的這個對等貿易關稅的這樣壓力所以請問一下就我們所了解日媒的報導日經新聞的報導是正確的嗎那有關於我們台灣對外洽簽貿易協定除了美國之外我們也激進跟其他國家洽簽貿易協定是不是確實有受阻的情形"},{"start":10196.65,"end":10225.6,"text":"好 先跟委員簡單說明一下因為那個經貿談判不是我的夜館但是因為委員在關切那我們大概就國際情資的角度來跟委員報告一下可能目前一些國際在這一部分談判的一個狀況尤其在整個美國關稅之後我們可以看到國際之間確實對於雙邊多邊的經貿協定的洽談是越來越積極我們國家在對外經貿談判也是不斷地在推動所以也跟英國最近有接近一個協定那我們是不是真的已經受阻了不只是跟美國"},{"start":10226.64,"end":10241.545,"text":"跟其他國家 因為連加拿大已經跟我們談定但是卻遲遲沒有辦法簽署而且這個已經受到日本媒體的高度關切這是事實嗎 有些經貿談判它還在進行過程當中當然媒體的報導我們都要重視實際的進展我想還是要由涉及談判的單位來對外做比較完整的說明 會比較恰當"},{"start":10254.13,"end":10274.662,"text":"不過這個跟我們整個的其實我覺得台灣最重要的國安就是我們整個在國際間的有關於經貿的部分那個是最重要的那另外一件事情就是日本的政局日本現在自民黨已經產生他的新的那個黨魁"},{"start":10275.623,"end":10294.13,"text":"但是那麼新的黨魁高市早苗能不能順利的成為日本的新任首相現在卻出現了變數啊那現在也有這個媒體報導啊就說日本的政局恐變天因為原來是自公黨的合作"},{"start":10294.91,"end":10322.608,"text":"自民黨即使沒有過半數的席次仍然可以去拿下首相但是現在看起來非常有可能就是高市早苗沒有辦法成為新的首相而這對於台灣來講當然有影響大家也知道高市早苗因為基本上他走的是安倍路線安倍跟台灣的關係非常的親密那麼特別跟賴總統的關係因為賴總統曾經去參加過佳季"},{"start":10323.188,"end":10345.799,"text":"好 那如果今天不是高市早苗的話而且有新的不管新的黑馬是誰那請問一下我們有沒有掌握相關的狀況我們的評估是什麼好 跟委員說明一下我還是前提先說明清楚我國安情報所長我不適合去評論其他國家的內政而且正在進行跟台灣呢對 好 那我來說現在跟台灣有關係"},{"start":10348.76,"end":10377.655,"text":"好 我來說明一下事實上現在就日本的輿情輿情的討論跟委員報告 輿情的討論日本方面是認為說各政黨之間還在做一些折衝高市代表的自民黨他目前還在爭取在野黨的支持另外的立憲民主黨在野黨也在爭取其他黨派的支持所以目前還在討論過程當中我們不適合做太早的斷論第二個 在各政黨的政治立場上幾乎有它共同的地方"},{"start":10378.095,"end":10394.373,"text":"那對於這個區域安全跟某種程度維護集體安全跟美國日安保的合作這個主軸基調是在的這大概是第二點跟委員來做報告那第三點當然在管理跟中國的關係上那也會希望用比較務實的角度來進行必要的一個管理"},{"start":10394.713,"end":10423.09,"text":"那第四個在政策路線上對於台灣有事可能對於日本的影響那他們確實幾乎都有一些跨黨派的共識那這部分我們是有蠻廣泛的跟日本政界的接觸那有得到以上比較初步的一個觀察跟委員做的說明我想第一個我們還是要密切去掌握狀況終究呢我想日本跟我們長期以來是對那現在這個政局當然我們不曉得最後的結果但是我們第一個一定要掌握"},{"start":10423.89,"end":10440.418,"text":"那第二個但是我覺得因為每一個政黨或者每個人他們的路線多多少少會有些許不同所以這一點還是會對台灣會產生影響尤其我在這邊沒有特別講我覺得最近以來日本媒體很多人講說日本媒體"},{"start":10441.238,"end":10465.396,"text":"最愛台灣了可是最近日本媒體對台灣的報導說實在都是會讓大家呈現比較憂心的一面不管是政治上的比如說日本媒體根本不同意大罷免甚至在他們的社論裡面那現在對我們的經貿問題這台灣媒體沒有提出來但是去提出說我們已經被各國人弱這都是我們值得去重視跟關心的警訊"},{"start":10466.036,"end":10483.819,"text":"因為日本是民主國家那他們的媒體的討論會非常多元那我們都會來收報來掌握相關的動態謝謝委員來提醒我們謝謝王宏委員 局長請回好 接下來進行詢答的委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請吳宗憲委員進行詢答時間四分鐘"},{"start":10494.232,"end":10494.994,"text":"麻煩調查局局長"},{"start":10507.967,"end":10533.774,"text":"好 局長你好 局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法 竹條有有 竹條皮那天新書發表會那個總長有邀請我去好 那我想你那時候也有提到這本書啦你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為那個國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以"},{"start":10534.474,"end":10558.801,"text":"可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高"},{"start":10560.422,"end":10584.661,"text":"我有整理一下 你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件 那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單 就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長 你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊 會不會回來就被抓不會"},{"start":10586.363,"end":10602.511,"text":"所以這個問題就在這裡嘛 如果你說回來被抓 不會但是那麼多人 牽結 不起訴 判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好 謝謝委員 容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對 我們反滲透法 其實它要處罰的是受中共"},{"start":10603.351,"end":10618.121,"text":"只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話呢要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受假官的傳喚來來作證那"},{"start":10620.723,"end":10648.804,"text":"委員可以看到這裡面有罪的 其實都是糾團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦 這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條"},{"start":10650.982,"end":10679.941,"text":"反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好 所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好 那這次大陸旅遊裡面有一些國台辦跟團員這個私下 私下講兩岸一家親和平統一或者是我看到有很多民眾拿著卷來找我找我們陳情我發現調查官就一直磨一直磨一直磨磨到他講出這一句話"},{"start":10681.082,"end":10709.653,"text":"講出這句話有啦那個他們私下有跟我們講說兩岸家親啊他抓的這個點就要移送移送這些人我給你講就是今天這個東西是不應該的另外我再跟你講一下就是其實最近在你們在這本書有兩個最新的判決無罪判決沒有放進去就是有提到這兩個很重要的點我現在跟你說第一個政治傾向的口號不能夠代表會選所以呢"},{"start":10710.765,"end":10736.252,"text":"口號不是要求你要特定的投票所以函宣跟動員也無關這個沒有利益對價關係的其實根本就談不上反省策法請你告訴所有的調查官要注意這個標準執法不能毫無標準 不能如此空泛不能讓現在大量的牽結以及判無罪大量的牽結以及判無罪 那我就會請教你那你們為什麼要發動這個偵查你要知道民眾遇到偵查是下的半尺"},{"start":10736.832,"end":10753.299,"text":"那這些都是無辜的民眾你知道這些人被你們找去之後回家家人都怕得半死鄰居看到他都不敢講話這個是我們不應該的地方所以我再請教你這本書出來之後請問一下調查局有做什麼樣的教育作為"},{"start":10754.219,"end":10775.02,"text":"我們大概因為這本書剛出來那我們有發給我們的個外勤但不是每個人都有大概主要是負責國安業務的這些幹部大概要研閱一下比較能夠快速這本書主要是收錄反滲透法國家禁閉保護法還有一個因為時間關係因為時間關係我有去跟各個調查官都有打聽的"},{"start":10776.121,"end":10795.776,"text":"目前麻煩你們既然輸出來了你也說這個東西給第一線非常重要是請排入教育訓練好嗎是可以好那能夠把那個教育訓練的那個那個一些相關的習程或什麼樣的計畫給我們一下沒有問題讓我們了解不要再讓亂抓人變成下一次選舉權的一個大問題絕對不會亂抓人課程課綱師之對象討論的內容要給我們一下因為我認為司法是講求事實講求證據不是臆測不是偵查人員主觀"},{"start":10805.623,"end":10826.377,"text":"判斷 而且制度一定要存在 不能靠人的自律 人的自律是沒有意義的包委員就您提到了這個那個揪團去大陸旅遊的這個有最新的兩個判決請委員可以參考一下就嘉義地方法院跟屏東地方法院的一個兩個最新的判決一個是判決有期徒刑四年 一個是判決有期徒刑四年半沒有問題"},{"start":10827.177,"end":10849.035,"text":"一定很多有罪 但是我現在告訴你有罪的他們罪有應得沒有問題我現在是說大量的牽結跟無罪你也讓這些民進黨的委員也倒霉啊因為很多人無端被抓 他們就背原罪啊所以我的意思不是有罪 有罪人反而罪有應得破壞國家安全我也痛恨但是不是破壞國家安全的人不要隨便抓我請教一下 那個書的作者是誰"},{"start":10852.001,"end":10875.789,"text":"最高檢 最高檢要排入教育訓練不要有圖利作者就好了不會啦 這個是公家的都是檢察官 檢察官河邊出公告的時候他也有在我怕那個書是我們什麼人出的就不好那你出沒關係 列入列入不會啦 這個最高檢啦我們也邀請過委員到我們調局來演講過你不就上一本給我們看一看嗎好 謝謝主席"},{"start":10877.009,"end":10889.455,"text":"好接下來進行尋答委員燕姿燕姿燕姿委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":10890.868,"end":10912.335,"text":"已登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答皆已結束本日會議有黃人委員林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料回覆者"},{"start":10913.315,"end":10932.509,"text":"請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆那委員另有約定期限者剛才有幾位局長有答應一週的另約定期限者從期鎖定以上如設有機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理大家辛苦本日會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":10969.923,"end":10992.261,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11060.413,"end":11060.917,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}