{"error":false,"id":["169450"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169450,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169450","日期":"2026-05-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-20-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-05-20T10:29:52+08:00","結束時間":"2026-05-20T10:40:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e8e93c7ebde79baeef1edb9a1c8befc48366f596cea4852f1cbc05507f2af634ab1e007f00cecbda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:29:52 - 10:40:29","會議時間":"2026-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲與公股行庫董事長及金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「公股金融機構數位轉型、人力招募、員工權益及中長期整併規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分、財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（僅詢答）\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案有關賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬歲出預算部分。（僅詢答）\n【5月20日及21日二天一次會】\n【預算提案截止時間：5月21日（四）下午5時】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":7.08471875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":7.67534375,"end":8.704718750000001,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":14.172218750000003,"end":14.99909375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.62346875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":15.724718750000001,"end":16.500968750000002,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":16.61909375,"end":92.16846875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":27.28409375,"end":27.68909375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":93.26534375,"end":122.88096875000001,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":122.81346875000001,"end":124.60221875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":123.23534375000001,"end":123.92721875000001,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":124.09596875000001,"end":153.94784375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":153.94784375,"end":172.30784375000002,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":172.67909375000002,"end":213.85409375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":211.71096875,"end":217.51596875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":216.77346875,"end":244.24596875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":220.67159375000003,"end":221.73471875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":232.06221875000003,"end":232.95659375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":244.04346875000002,"end":249.51096875000002,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":250.20284375000003,"end":250.86096875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":251.19846875000002,"end":257.08784375,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":258.26909375,"end":259.33221875000004,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":262.52159375,"end":264.59721875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":268.90034375,"end":282.83909375,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":283.32846875,"end":303.15659375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":296.59221875000003,"end":296.99721875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":303.61221875,"end":305.02971875000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":305.02971875000003,"end":305.97471875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":305.97471875,"end":306.02534375000005,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":306.02534375000005,"end":306.31221875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"董董事長瑞斌","start":307.47659375,"end":323.54159375,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":322.05659375000005,"end":326.47784375000003,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"董董事長瑞斌","start":326.56221875,"end":331.43909375000004,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":327.52409375,"end":328.38471875000005,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":330.02159375,"end":350.28846875000005,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":350.84534375000004,"end":359.90721875,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":360.46409375,"end":366.20159375000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":366.28596875000005,"end":367.11284375,"speaker_score":0.973},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":367.11284375,"end":369.20534375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":369.34034375000005,"end":383.80221875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員書彬","start":383.80221875,"end":401.40284375000005,"speaker_sco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謝謝主席有請金管會陳副主委請陳副主委是 委員好好 您好那我們看到金管會他為了吸引投資人去減碳然後2024年已經推出了永續經濟活動的指引2.0版那這一點的大方向是值得肯定的不過我們知道說"},{"start":31.38,"end":51.252,"text":"台灣它是一個出口依賴的經濟體那真正的話它能夠發揮作用就是要跟國際接軌的ESG認證那我們的目前指引也看得出來它現在並沒有是立法它就是一個指引的效力那相對於歐盟的永續分類法明顯的規定也是叫寬鬆對於我們舉個例子來講"},{"start":54.714,"end":62.296,"text":"對於未造成重大危害的標準歐盟也制定了各項的經濟活動重大的危害標準但是台灣只要說台灣只要沒有認定只要他沒有違反通用規則或是沒有重大的裁處的就算是可以過關或是在轉型當中因此本席想要問的是永續經濟活動認定這個指南他是要鼓勵金融業去導引讓他到永續的經濟活動當中"},{"start":84.64,"end":85.923,"text":"金管會這樣的寬鬆資金對企業而言怎麼樣去說服金融業要去投入這樣的資金呢"},{"start":93.365,"end":122.372,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實委員剛剛提到了非常一個正確以歐盟而言的話其實大概在四年前那時候EU Taxonomy它就已經發布以及它所謂的永續報告書或這一些最主要的一個我們的永續經濟指引在這個地方各國在頒布的時候就是說什麼樣的綠才是真正的綠因為如果那個標準沒有對齊的話其實各國之間國際上的比較是困難的"},{"start":122.972,"end":138.605,"text":"您的方法呢 具體趕快說所以台灣在這個地方我們在第一版第二版就是持續的持續的依據我們就是說在防止漂濾的一個狀況之下我們也納入永續經濟活動就是說除了"},{"start":139.165,"end":153.702,"text":"以往的歐盟歐洲那邊所謂的綠以外我們還有一個支持性的經濟以及呢我們對於一個所謂我們對於這個IFRS永續指引的Full Adopt完全的一個接受以分階段的要求它來揭露"},{"start":154.002,"end":170.707,"text":"可是現在的成果如果我們先看看在目前只看到以不到百分之一的達成率的KPI那副主委你滿意嗎那金管會怎麼樣讓更多的企業去投入啊有沒有一些對下一年度更多的企業或到今年度有更多的企業幾家可以做一個預期嗎"},{"start":172.748,"end":197.878,"text":"其实以国际上的一个统计而言的话就算以德国这个最先进的其实它也只有达到2%所以呢其实在欧洲那边他们也在更动这一些的一个政策因为呢过于严苛的一个所谓的绿色或者是直接的要求它的一个转型会整体的对于中小企业有极重大的影响所以是说呢在欧盟也发布一个新的指令Stop Clock"},{"start":197.998,"end":216.306,"text":"就是說我把時鐘給停止停止之後呢其實他們現在集中要求的是大型的一個企業大型企業呢在呢這個所謂範疇一 範疇二 範疇三透過它的一個所謂的另一面的執意副主委 副主委你們現在是上市上櫃公司基本上都已經是比較大型的啊"},{"start":216.826,"end":243.778,"text":"其實我們的上市上櫃的大型對於歐洲那種大型其實還算算偏小但是我們對100億以上已經要求那在兩年後的話其實我們對於這個50億的也像那再就是說對50億以上那再來的話我們就是20億最後對是慢慢的分階段的一個進行我覺得不是我覺得其實以整體所有國際學者來台灣呢他覺得我們的速度目前為止是穩健而正確"},{"start":244.258,"end":245.379,"text":"我想就食物面就要做一個請教了"},{"start":268.956,"end":296.247,"text":"林董事長那請問一下那您就您在業務上面的永續金融在這個ESG跟這個IFRS 1跟2的這個業務人力的話您目前的人力是多少那等一下也是請趙豐金說明董事長說明我們目前整個IFRS還有這些永續經營的指引呢都是在台灣金控來做的那目前的人力其實配置是不多因為我們整個金控的人力大概只有50個人那配置在這個領域的其實是沒有很多"},{"start":296.667,"end":296.867,"text":"董事長"},{"start":307.746,"end":324.837,"text":"我們詳細人數我不是很清楚啦不過就說我們整個編制上是這樣就是在這個金扣裡面我們有一個永續的小組有永續長就是由我們總經理來兼任那另外呢在各個子公司都有永續小組那你們覺得業務成功就是業務的進行是順利的嗎"},{"start":326.958,"end":348.31,"text":"對 是順利的 因為我們每一年自己做還要找顧問來幫我們做好 謝謝 我現在想要繼續往下去 那個林董事長想請問一下根據台銀的永續報告書跟氣候風險結構當中台銀已經把電力跟燃氣供應業 石油跟煤製產品業跟化學基本基礎工業都列為高碳排高氣候的這個風險產業 那請問"},{"start":350.911,"end":352.614,"text":"林董事長 在這些產業 鹹素的產業當中總受性的曝險金額是多少那這邊多少呢 它還比例是多少呢"},{"start":361.533,"end":381.592,"text":"這個數據可不可以容我這個會後再行提供因為我現在手上沒有這麼詳細的資訊那你應該知道這個比例應該是相當高對不對這個我們在整個銀行授信當中一定會朝向這個方向來做努力甚至包括不只是授信的部分包括我們投資的產業的部分我們也會朝這個方向來努力那是不是我們會後再提供資訊給這個委員來參考"},{"start":384.074,"end":399.103,"text":"這個部分因為它涉及到電力跟石油化學這是高碳排的那你剛才說應該是相當高的比例對不對這個比例當中我記得大概是有六千多億六千多億的比例變成是你們可以說它應該是你們很最高的一個創意的來源嗎"},{"start":403.068,"end":431.326,"text":"不一定是最高的收益的來源因為銀行本身的收益的來源有非常多種那受信是其中之一好 那這一部分我再繼續再問下去那你們的包括的是像如果是這樣ESG的部分因為這個部分是屬於永續報告的你們氣候風險的接受所以你們給他們這樣子的一個受信嘛 對不對那這樣的受信呢那對在ESG真的在屬於在災商能源拿儲能夠電網這部分的那比例又是多少呢"},{"start":431.986,"end":453.664,"text":"我想這個比較詳細的數字是不是容我會後再提供給委員來參考我之前跟林董事長你這邊還包括董董事長應該好都現在一時拿出去可能拿不出來可是我要告訴你這個部令一定相當的獲利因為尤其是你們對電力的這種水泥鋼鐵他們是真的需要資金因為在平常的這個金融的部分因為他是高"},{"start":454.645,"end":458.287,"text":"其實因為我們是百分之百的這個國營行庫所以對於政府尤其是百分之百國營的這種譬如說台電等等這樣的一個支持我們本身就是最大的支持者所以這部分的一個受信額度其實是沒有辦法做一個非常大的一個減幅"},{"start":479.576,"end":496.328,"text":"對 但是這個問題就是很大了我們現在看到的是因為它就是高碳牌它並不符合所謂綠色金融它包括國際間的這樣的趨勢尤其是國家等於說帶頭在產業的部分的時候化石性能源這麼高但是這部分呢因為它還有涉及到有些可能轉型的這樣的一個需求那你們有沒有被要求說"},{"start":497.89,"end":519.209,"text":"這個像剛才所說的像電力啊鋼鐵啊這些的是不是有包括像化石燃煉的曝險要下降啊目標或高碳排產業必須要解碼的這種KPI兩個公司這邊有沒有做這樣的要求這個我們有訂定一些指標有訂定指標那指標是什麼我只可以會後我們再行提供給委員參考好不好因為這個都是非常細的一些資訊尤其是針對產業別"},{"start":522.54,"end":536.939,"text":"因為你那邊才有永續長對不對對 幫我補充說明一下我們在某些產業上面的話就是實行這個所謂的赤道原則就是說譬如說像那個燃煤電廠我們現在就已經不對燃煤電廠做授信了"},{"start":537.52,"end":553.751,"text":"因為國際上還有很多燃煤電廠但是我們就不做這個授信除非是它經過當地他們的環保單位核准是一個短暫性的一個措施的情況之下我們才做授信那譬如說很多的像軍火啦或者是像類似像這個賭博或什麼這個我們都不做授信的"},{"start":554.211,"end":567.987,"text":"那另外還有就是說我們對那些高碳牌的話我們會有這所謂的那個制式條款就只要是它是有ESG是被採訪的情況之下呢它達到某一定的比例的時候我們會在它的利率上面會有加碼那如果它沒有的話會有減碼這個措施"},{"start":569.008,"end":590.893,"text":"好 這就是請兩位的董事長在會後就再提供本席你們這邊非常比較細緻因為兩個公股銀行這邊帶領的是呈現的是金融機構對於我們台灣的永續發展或是轉型當中的非常重要的一個指標所以希望你們能夠提供這個資訊讓大家全體知道說國家在這邊是扮演什麼樣的角色好 那謝謝"},{"start":592.293,"end":608.63,"text":"那我跟妳講還包括再生能源的部分喔這部分就是相對應的喔因為其實這個永續的部分特別要再針對再生能源節能跟除電這部分這事實上也要補上來喔對 我們綠色債券也投資了將近70億左右吧再生能源或是相關的大概2000多億的壽信"},{"start":610.111,"end":629.364,"text":"好 希望是說呢 因為這些不是說沒有ESG 可是這個ESG當中的資金呢它應該還是要讓大家知道它是真的要變成是永續發展的需求不然的話 ESG可能就只是一個金融的包裝數這樣是非常可惜的喔好 那就時間到了 那就今天就講到這裡好 謝謝謝謝劉淑萍委員我們結束劉淑萍委員的詢詢接下來請顏寬恆委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:29:55.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:29:55.287000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:29:55.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:29:55.667000+08:00","text":"有請金管會陳副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T10:29:56.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:29:56.728000+08:00","text":"請陳副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:29:56.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:29:56.968000+08:00","text":"委員好。你好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:29:57.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:30:00.089000+08:00","text":"我們看到金管會為了吸引投資人減碳，2024年推出了「永續經濟活動認定參考指引」2.0版，這一點在大方向是值得肯定的。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:30:00.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:30:31.825000+08:00","text":"不過我們知道臺灣是一個依賴出口的經濟體，如果要真正發揮作用，就是要跟國際接軌ESG認證。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:30:32.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:30:42.612000+08:00","text":"但是從目前的指引看得出來，現在並沒有立法，就只是一個指引的效力，相對於歐盟的永續分類法的規定來說也明顯比較寬鬆。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:30:42.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:30:53.015000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，對於未造成重大危害的標準，歐盟也制定了各項經濟活動的重大危害標準，但是臺灣並沒有認定，因此，只要它沒有違反通用規則或是沒有重大裁處的，就算可以過關或是在轉型當中。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:30:53.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:17.903000+08:00","text":"本席想要問的是，永續經濟活動認定參考指引是為了鼓勵金融業將資金導引到永續的經濟活動當中，面對金管會這樣一個寬鬆的指引，對企業而言，要怎麼樣說服金融業去投入這樣的資金呢？","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:25.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:29.886000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實委員剛剛提到的非常正確。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:29.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:37.788000+08:00","text":"以歐盟而言，其實大概在4年前EU Taxonomy就已經發布了，以及所謂的永續報告書等等。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:38.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:54.352000+08:00","text":"最主要的我們的永續經濟指引在這個地方，各國在頒布的時候，對於什麼樣的綠才是真正的綠，如果那個標準沒有對齊的話，其實各國之間、國際上的比較是困難的……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:54.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:55.673000+08:00","text":"所以您的具體方法呢？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:56.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:31:56.874000+08:00","text":"趕快說。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:31:56.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:09.604000+08:00","text":"所以臺灣在這個地方，我們在第一版、第二版，就是持續的依據……就是在防止漂綠的狀況之下，我們也納入了永續經濟活動。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:09.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:25.682000+08:00","text":"就是除了以往歐盟、歐洲那邊所謂的綠以外，我們還有支持性的經濟，以及我們對於IFRS永續指引是full adopt（完全接受），並分階段的要求它來揭露。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:26.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:26.942000+08:00","text":"可是現在的成果如何？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:27.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:27.683000+08:00","text":"我們來看看。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:28.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:34.265000+08:00","text":"目前只看到不到百分之一達成率的KPI，副主委滿意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:34.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:36.425000+08:00","text":"金管會要怎麼樣讓更多的企業去投入？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:36.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:42.707000+08:00","text":"有預期明年度會比今年度多幾家企業嗎？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:44.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:32:50.570000+08:00","text":"其實以國際上的統計而言，就算以德國這個最先進的國家來說，也只達到百分之二。","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:32:52.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:06.056000+08:00","text":"其實在歐洲那邊，他們也在更動這些政策，因為過於嚴苛的綠色或者是直接要求它轉型，整體上對於中小企業會有極重大的影響。","quality":0.623},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:06.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:24.164000+08:00","text":"所以歐盟也發布一個新的指令「Stop-the-Clock」，就是把時鐘給停止，停止之後，其實他們現在集中要求的是大型企業，再來所謂範疇一、範疇二、範疇三，透過他的供應鏈的指引……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:24.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:24.984000+08:00","text":"副主委，您的部分呢？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:25.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:28.266000+08:00","text":"我們現在是上市上櫃公司，基本上都已經是比較大型的啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:28.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:32.808000+08:00","text":"其實我們上市上櫃的大型跟歐洲那種大型相比，還算是偏小的。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:33.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:44.533000+08:00","text":"但是我們對100億以上的已經有要求，在兩年後，我們會對50億以上的，再來就是20億最後……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:44.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:45.533000+08:00","text":"往下了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:45.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:47.294000+08:00","text":"對，是慢慢的、分階段的進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:48.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:55.778000+08:00","text":"其實所有國際學者來臺灣，他們都覺得我們的速度目前為止是穩健而正確的。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:55.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:56.778000+08:00","text":"好，如果這樣子，謝謝副主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:56.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:57.778000+08:00","text":"我現在要請臺灣金控公司的董事長跟兆豐金的董事長兩位董事長上臺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:57.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:58.778000+08:00","text":"請兩位董事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:33:56.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:33:57.199000+08:00","text":"我想就實務面來請教。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:21.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:31+08:00","text":"請問凌董事長，在永續金融（ESG跟IFRS1、2）的業務人力上，您目前的人力是多少？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:31.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:34.641000+08:00","text":"等一下也是請兆豐金董事長說明。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:35.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:48.227000+08:00","text":"我們目前整個IFRS還有這些永續經營的指引，都是在臺灣金控來做的，目前的人力其實配置不多，因為我們整個金控的人力大概只有50個人，配置在這個領域的其實沒有很多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:48.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:49.227000+08:00","text":"不夠的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:49.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:50.227000+08:00","text":"但是在旗下有相當的銀行或者是人壽、證券下面，都有相關的同仁可以來做一些配合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:48.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:34:48.867000+08:00","text":"好，董董事長呢？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:34:48.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:01.807000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:01.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:10.973000+08:00","text":"詳細人數我不是很清楚，不過我們整個編制上是這樣，就是在金控裡面，我們有一個永續的小組、有永續長，就是由我們總經理來兼任。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:11.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:14.595000+08:00","text":"另外，在各個子公司都有永續小組，因為它的業務非常的多……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:14.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:16.837000+08:00","text":"你們覺得業務的進行是順利的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:18.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:21.760000+08:00","text":"對，是順利的，因為我們每一年除了自己做，還會找顧問來幫我們再做檢測……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:22.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:22.520000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:22.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:40.290000+08:00","text":"我現在想要繼續問下去，請問凌董事長，在臺銀的永續報告書跟氣候風險揭露當中，臺銀已經把電力及燃氣供應業、石油及煤製品製造業，跟化學、基本金屬工業都列為高碳排、高氣候風險產業。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:40.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:44.274000+08:00","text":"請問凌董事長，在這些產業當中，總授信的曝險金額是多少？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:44.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:44.594000+08:00","text":"還有比例是多少呢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:53.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:55.615000+08:00","text":"這個數據可不可以容我會後再行提供？","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:55.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:35:58.358000+08:00","text":"因為我現在手上沒有這麼詳細的資訊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:35:58.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:02.101000+08:00","text":"你應該知道這個比例應該是相當高，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:02.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:05.825000+08:00","text":"我們在整個銀行授信當中，一定會朝向這個方向來做努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:06.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:11.930000+08:00","text":"甚至不只是授信的部分，包括我們投資產業的部分，我們也會朝這個方向來努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:12.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:13.572000+08:00","text":"是不是我們會後再提供資訊給委員來參考？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:16.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:23.138000+08:00","text":"好，這個部分，因為它涉及到電力跟石油化學，這些都是高碳排的，你剛才也說應該有相當高的比例，對不對？對。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:23.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:31.103000+08:00","text":"這個比例當中，我記得大概是有六千多億的比例，它可以說是你們最高的收益來源嗎？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:35.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:41.972000+08:00","text":"不一定是最高的收益來源，因為銀行本身的收益來源有非常多種，授信是其中之一……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:42.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:36:55.921000+08:00","text":"好，這一部分我繼續再問下去，你們包括的是像……如果是像ESG的部分，因為這個部分是屬於永續報告的、你們信用風險的揭露，所以你們給他們這樣的授信，對不對？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:36:56.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:03.306000+08:00","text":"這樣的授信，對於ESG，像再生能源、儲能、電網等部分，其比例又是多少呢？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:03.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:07.549000+08:00","text":"我想比較詳細的數字，是不是容我會後再提供給委員來參考，好不好？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:08.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:15.236000+08:00","text":"好，我這邊要跟凌董事長以及董董事長說，現在一時要你們拿數據，你們可能拿不出來。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:15.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:25.644000+08:00","text":"可是我知道這個部分一定有相當的獲利，尤其是你們對電力、水泥、鋼鐵，他們是真的需要資金，因為在平常金融的部分，他們是高碳排的，他們就是沒有辦法拿到比較好的資金。","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:25.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:26.725000+08:00","text":"可是你們是公股銀行，所以就變成會有很大的責任要去進行這樣的授信，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:26.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:37:30.267000+08:00","text":"因為我們是百分之百的國營行庫，所以對政府，尤其是百分之百國營的這種，譬如說台電等等這樣的支持，我們本身就是最大的支持者，所以這部分的授信額度，其實是沒有辦法做非常大的減幅。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:37:51.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:02.624000+08:00","text":"對，但是這個問題就是很大，我們現在看到的是，因為它就是高碳排，它並不符合所謂綠色金融，還有包括國際間這樣的趨勢，尤其這等於是國家帶頭在這樣的產業，尤其化石性能源這麼高。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:03.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:19.378000+08:00","text":"但是這部分因為它還涉及到轉型等這樣的需求，你們有沒有要求說，像剛才所說的電力、鋼鐵這些，是不是有包括像化石燃料曝險下降目標，或是高碳排產業必須要減碼的這種KPI？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:19.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:21.520000+08:00","text":"兩個公司有沒有做這樣的要求？","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:22.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:24.663000+08:00","text":"這個我們有訂定一些指標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:24.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:25.244000+08:00","text":"有訂定指標？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:25.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:26.925000+08:00","text":"指標是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:26.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:29.367000+08:00","text":"我可不可以會後再行提供給委員參考，好不好？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"凌董事長忠嫄","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:29.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:31.189000+08:00","text":"因為這個都是非常細的資訊，尤其是針對產業別。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:31.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:34.540000+08:00","text":"好，那董董事長呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:34.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:38.345000+08:00","text":"因為你那邊還有永續長，對不對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:38.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:39.166000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，我補充說明一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:39.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:48.919000+08:00","text":"我們在某些產業上面就是實行所謂赤道原則，譬如說燃煤電廠，我們現在就已經不對燃煤電廠做授信了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:38:49.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:38:59.647000+08:00","text":"雖然國際上還有很多燃煤電廠，但是我們就不做授信，除非它經過當地的環保單位核准，是一個短暫性措施的情況之下，我們才做授信。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:39:00.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:39:05.731000+08:00","text":"譬如說很多像軍火或類似像賭博等等，這些我們都不做授信的。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:39:06.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:39:19.967000+08:00","text":"另外，我們對那些高碳排的會有所謂的制式條款，只要它是有ESG、是被裁罰的情況之下，它達到一定比例的時候，我們會在它的利率上面加碼；如果它沒有的話，會有減碼的措施。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:39:21.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:39:42.893000+08:00","text":"好，請兩位董事長在會後再提供本席比較細緻的資訊，因為兩個公股銀行呈現的是金融機構對於我們臺灣的永續發展或是轉型當中的一個非常重要的指標，所以希望你們能夠提供這個資訊，讓大家全體知道說，國家在這邊是扮演什麼樣的角色，謝謝。好。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:39:45.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:39:53.482000+08:00","text":"同樣的，還包括再生能源的部分，這部分就是相對應的，其實永續的部分，特別要再針對再生能源、節能跟儲電這部分，這些資料也要補上來喔！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"董董事長瑞斌","start":"2026-05-20T10:39:54.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:40:00.610000+08:00","text":"對，我們也投資了綠色債券將近70億左右，再生能源或者相關的大概是兩千多億的授信。","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:40:03.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:40:15.760000+08:00","text":"因為這些不是說沒有ESG，可是應該還是要讓大家知道，ESG當中的資金真的要用於永續發展，不然的話，ESG可能就只是一個金融的包裝術，這樣非常可惜！","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-05-20T10:40:18.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:40:20.003000+08:00","text":"時間到了，今天就講到這裡，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T10:40:20.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:40:20.963000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉書彬委員，劉書彬委員質詢結束。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T10:40:21.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:40:21.364000+08:00","text":"接下來請顏寬恒委員。","quality":0.889}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}