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謝主席 我們請曾主委主委請侯委員好"},{"start":13.669,"end":42.127,"text":"主委好首先想要跟您請教這個貸金補償制度的這個部分因為其實在2021年這個大法官已經認定有部分違憲那監察院其實也糾正過了那這個貸金補償的制度我不知道說現在距離這個修法的年限其實已經超過兩年了因為其實2021年大法官就已經要求說要兩年內完成修法可是修法的年限是2023年那現在已經"},{"start":43.788,"end":73.131,"text":"超过两年多 快三年了那我不知道说现在原民会修法的进度如何那我先要讲说这个贷金制度其实我们都认为它的利益良善因为对于企业来说如果没有聘用足额的原住民那就是必须要有这个课征贷金的制度那可以放到我们原住民族的综合发展基金里面可以用于这些职训啊或者是就业促进 创业贷款等等那我觉得这个对于促进原住民族的就业都是有帮助的"},{"start":73.671,"end":95.917,"text":"但是我看到這個監察院的報告裡面有一個案例他說因為中國人壽標了一個台中市一百六十四萬的案子那因為聘的人數不足所以他的代金要繳兩百九十四萬也就是說代金超過這個當初採購的金額意思是說你標了一個案子但是不僅沒有賺錢然後還要倒貼"},{"start":97.597,"end":123.698,"text":"那所以其實這個市字810裡面其實有顯然有認為是過於苛刻啦那當然這個後來原民會我知道說2022年就發了一個這個就業代金調整的暫行要點那說如果超過採購金額的話可以調整到採購金額的上限但是如果以剛剛這個例子來看其實還是不是很合理喔就是你這個案子是164萬那你就算最後要"},{"start":126.74,"end":145.476,"text":"繳出來的是一百六十四萬就是把採購的金額全部都吐出來但是等於是說他接這個案子完全等於白做了嘛那這樣子我不知道說這樣你們覺得是有解決了這個問題嗎還是說接下來你們有打算用修法的方式來完整處理這樣的情況呢"},{"start":146.479,"end":172.958,"text":"也跟委員報告這個因為在112年9月還有113年的2月我們確實我們也兩度核轉立法院來審議但是因為都沒有排入這個審議那當然這個部分也特別拜託委員是不是我們也也有希望能夠還是要走修法這個路線比較公平因為所以你們是有版本的那個是不合理的還是不合理是的"},{"start":174.366,"end":196.34,"text":"那我這邊要拜託的就是說因為其實現在的現行制度還有另外一個問題是我看到這個主婦聯盟的例子就是說他們其實是算是也蠻認真的想要就符合這個制度他們也很願意協助這個原住民族的就業那甚至是說他們也有透過原民會的就業的媒合平台在上面積極的找人"},{"start":197.501,"end":221.458,"text":"但是最後還是沒有找到所以還是必須要這個課徵相關的代金甚至是他們其實在相關的推廣計畫裡面也都是說他們想要多採購這個原住民族相關的農產等等的他們其實前期做了很多努力但是最後沒有辦法達到這樣的成果那所以我在想說你們到時候的這個修法的內容是不是第一個說就是當然找不到是一個結果"},{"start":222.219,"end":242.069,"text":"但是在這個過程當中如果他們有用其他的方式有努力的想要去符合這個目標甚至他們的精神也是希望促進就業那所以你看過程當中他們採購的項目也都是來自這個原住民區那甚至是他們也積極的上你們的原民會的就業媒合平台去找人了但是最後還是達成這個找不到這樣的結果"},{"start":244.87,"end":269.66,"text":"那是不是中間可以斟酌因為他們的這一些種種的努力所以最後這個課徵代金的金額不要最後還是必須是這個採購的上限呢是我們就做一個這個跟委員報告一下其實我們在院會的版本當中已經把剛剛委員所提到的已經考量進去了包含說你金融困難的部分我們都會透過練定辦法來去做處理以上"},{"start":270.182,"end":295.451,"text":"好所以你們的版本現在的進度是如何那是不是也可以多來拜託我們委員會來排錄審查那你們也報告一下你們現在修法的修法的精神以及說你們修法的內容大概是什麼樣子來跟委員報告一下那現在的修法的版本主要一個就是說過去原住民禁用的只限約顧五類的那現在呢我們只要就是整個分母老保"},{"start":296.058,"end":318.335,"text":"老闆身份跟公保身份都把它加入到就是說每100人就用一個而且我們針對原住民主地區尤其是公所的部分會按照它的人口數的比例比如說我是佔70%的原住民的人口數那我就這個公所就要禁用70%的一個相關的員工來所以以後過去大家就會把公保老闆一起算然後每100人禁用一名以上"},{"start":319.022,"end":334.407,"text":"好那這個要拜託趕快趕快處理這個畢竟已經是大法官有釋憲過然後監察院也已經都已經提醒你們過了那再來要請教這個原博館的部分這個我每一次質詢都會問相關的進度但是"},{"start":336.048,"end":354.27,"text":"讓我驚訝然後有點失望的是每一次這個相關的進度都是延宕欸一拖再拖那每一次都跟我保證說接下來絕對會如期如質的照這個工程進度來進行可是不知道為什麼到底是什麼原因"},{"start":355.091,"end":381.05,"text":"一拖再拖那甚至連我們因為我們澄清湖周邊相關的建設跟進度都已經做好了甚至最近我們連國嶺公園都開放了那邊附近的民眾是不斷的人潮越來越多那可是就看到說原博館這一塊就空在那邊然後每次都會有民眾來說為什麼你們那邊這麼跟周圍的這個環境是完全不相容的"},{"start":382.948,"end":395.814,"text":"我跟委員報告我們目前就是這邊大概我們就馬上就在這個6月就動工了 我們的驗警館 可是你們已經延宕一年了我知道 就是那個驗警館因為這整個的這個過程 因為它比較慢核定所以當然我們就加速的這個"},{"start":402.797,"end":414.243,"text":"這個一些相關的工程那驗金管希望我們今天六月初就會動工那很快希望在這個兩年內就能夠先把驗金管蓋起來那這個來作為後續的這個那請你們在這邊跟大家承諾一次你們的驗金管對我們的驗金管"},{"start":425.642,"end":442.319,"text":"什麼時候 什麼時候今年六月會動工然後什麼時候完工什麼時候明年的年底就完工好 你們承諾的千萬千萬不要再延宕了這個要拜託主委好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:49:56.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:49:57.212000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請曾主委。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T09:49:57.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:49:58.153000+08:00","text":"主委請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:49:58.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:49:58.333000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:50:04.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:50:04.889000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:50:05.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:50:16.717000+08:00","text":"首先想要跟您請教代金補償制度的問題，其實2021年大法官已經認定有部分違憲，監察院也糾正過了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:50:17.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:50:39.272000+08:00","text":"這個代金補償的制度現在距離修法的年限已經超過兩年了，因為2021年大法官就已經要求兩年內要完成修法，可是修法的年限是2023年，現在已經2026了，超過兩年多、快三年了，我不知道現在原民會修法的進度如何？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:50:40.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:51:04.111000+08:00","text":"我現在要講的是，我們都認為這個代金制度立意良善，因為對於企業來說，如果沒有聘用足額的原住民，就必須要有課徵代金的制度，收取的代金可以放到原住民族綜合發展基金裡面，用於原住民的職訓或者是就業促進、創業貸款等等，我覺得這個對於促進原住民族的就業都是有幫助的。","quality":0.534},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:51:04.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:51:34.782000+08:00","text":"但是我看到監察院的報告裡面有一個案例提到，中國人壽標了一個臺中市164萬的案子，因為聘的人數不足，所以代金要繳294萬，也就是說，代金超過當初採購的金額，意思是廠商標了一個案子，但是不僅沒有賺錢，還要倒貼，釋字第810號解釋認為顯然過於苛刻。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:51:36.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:51:47.712000+08:00","text":"我知道後來原民會在2022年發布就業代金調整的暫行要點，規定代金如果超過採購金額的話，可以調整採購金額的上限。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:51:48.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:52:11.592000+08:00","text":"但是如果以剛剛這個例子來看，其實還是不是很合理，就是這個案子的標金是164萬，就算最後要繳出來的是164萬，也就是把採購的金額全部都吐出來，等於他接這個案子完全是白做了，不知道你們覺得這樣有解決問題嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:52:11.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:52:16.456000+08:00","text":"還是接下來你們打算用修法的方式來完整處理這樣的情況呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:52:17.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:52:40.335000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為在112年9月還有113年2月，確實我們也兩度核轉立法院來審議，但是因為都沒排入審議，當然這個部分也特別拜託委員，是不是讓我們還是走修法這個路線會比較公平，因為剛才提的那個……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:52:40.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:52:41.636000+08:00","text":"所以你們是有版本的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:52:41.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:52:42.617000+08:00","text":"那個是不合理的啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:52:43.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:06.994000+08:00","text":"是的，我這邊要拜託的是，現行制度還有另外一個問題，即主婦聯盟的例子，其實他們也滿認真的想要符合這個制度，也很願意協助原住民族的就業，甚至他們也有透過原民會的就業媒合平臺，在上面積極找人，但最後還是沒有找到，所以還是必須課徵相關的代金，甚至是他們在相關推廣計畫裡面，也想要多多採購原住民族相關的農產等等，他們在前期做了很多努力，但是最後沒有辦法達到這樣的成果，所以你們到時候的修法內容，第一個，當然找不到人是一個結果，但是在這個過程當中，如果他們有用其他的方式，努力想要符合這個目標，甚至他們抱持的精神也是希望促進就業，而且在這個過程當中，他們採購的項目也都是來自原住民地區，甚至他們也積極上去你們原民會的就業媒合平臺去找人了，但是最後還是有找不到人這樣的結果，是不是中間可以斟酌一下，因為他們做了種種的努力，所以最後課徵代金的金額不要是採購金額的上限呢？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:08.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:10.376000+08:00","text":"我們會做一個……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅處長赫踛","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:10.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:20.640000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們在院會的版本當中，已經把剛剛委員所提到的考量進去了，包含進用困難的部分，我們都會透過訂定辦法去做處理，以上。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:21.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:23.583000+08:00","text":"好，所以你們的版本現在進度如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:24.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:28.365000+08:00","text":"是不是也可以多來拜託我們委員會排入審查。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:29.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:54:36.067000+08:00","text":"此外，你們也報告一下你們現在修法的精神以及你們修法的內容大概是什麼樣子。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅處長赫踛","start":"2026-05-20T09:54:36.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:55:09.315000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在的修法版本主要的重點之一就是過去原住民的進用只限約僱等五類，現在則是整個分母，包括勞保身分跟公保身分都把他加入，也就是每100人進用1人，而且我們針對原住民族地區，尤其是公所的部分，會按照他的人口數比例，比如原住民人口數占了70%，這個公所就要進用70%相關的員工，所以以後大概就會把公保、勞保也一起算，每100人要進用1人，以上。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:55:10.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:55:18.765000+08:00","text":"好，這個要拜託趕快處理，畢竟大法官已經釋憲過了，監察院也都已經提醒過你們了。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:55:19.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:55:46.651000+08:00","text":"再來要請教原博館的部分，我每一次質詢都會問相關的進度，但是讓我驚訝且有點失望的是，每一次相關的進度都是延宕，一拖再拖，每一次都跟我保證接下來絕對會如期如質的照工程進度來進行，請問到底是什麼原因一拖再拖？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:55:48.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:12.030000+08:00","text":"因為我們澄清湖周邊相關建設跟進度都已經做好了，甚至最近連果嶺公園都開放了，附近的民眾、人潮是越來越多，可是他們就看到原博館那一塊空在那邊，每次都會有民眾來問，為什麼那邊跟周圍環境是完全不相容的呢？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:13.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:22.212000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們願景館6月馬上就會動工了。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:22.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:24.213000+08:00","text":"可是你們已經延宕1年了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:24.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:44.043000+08:00","text":"我知道，因為在整個的過程中，他比較慢一些核定，當然我們會加速相關的一些工程，願景館6月初就會動工，希望在2年內就先把願景館蓋起來，作為後續的……","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:44.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:44.703000+08:00","text":"請你們在這邊再跟大家承諾一次。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:45.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:45.143000+08:00","text":"我們的願景館……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:56:57.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:56:57.784000+08:00","text":"什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:00.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:01.948000+08:00","text":"今年6月會動工？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:03.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:04.350000+08:00","text":"什麼時候完工？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:06.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:07.133000+08:00","text":"今年6月動工，明年年底完工。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:07.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:08.174000+08:00","text":"好，這是你們承諾的。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:09.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:12.878000+08:00","text":"千萬、千萬不要再延宕了，這個要拜託主委，謝謝。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:13.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:13.319000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T09:57:13.819000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T09:57:17.533286+08:00","text":"接下來請張宏陸委員發言質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}