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去了解"},{"start":304.606,"end":330.304,"text":"這樣的話就可以繼續在辦理行政院所核定的第三次的架構這是國發會所交辦的一個任務所以這個部分我本席也曾經質詢過在114年 去年也質詢了所以這個部分不曉得我們的同仁有沒有新的進度"},{"start":332.513,"end":357.542,"text":"誒 報告委員齁 那個 當然上次也 也那個該 該被降官是反原住民的大概都 都會處理 但是我們一定會遵照這個 我們沒有問題來做這樣的那個處理齁 那當初當然原住民保留地的地方 還有有些地方齁 我家在仲田 隔壁是台南的土地一點點而已 那為什麼勒 因為當初齁"},{"start":358.582,"end":382.141,"text":"政府要徵收那個要納稅 很多人都不要去納稅因為那時候的那個收入很低嘛 每人都要繳稅大家都不要 那不要讓有一些政府就台糖就被台糖去繳稅 它變成台糖的土地那所以這個有歷史的背景 那這個當然那個台糖也肩負的就是說"},{"start":382.694,"end":390.801,"text":"那個繳稅然後看幫政府看管土地的功能啊謝謝那我們一定會遵照那個相關的"},{"start":392.468,"end":421.47,"text":"對 那個董事長你講的是一小部分啦重點是重點就是說國發會已經寫得很明確只要7721以前使用祖先的土地到現在無論是出租的或是佔用的都希望能夠透過振化變成人民保育地當然就是要去演命會還是要去架構嘛那演命會要去釐清所以你們必須你們的責任呢"},{"start":422.23,"end":449.782,"text":"就是依國發會的意見把這些符合這個條件的全部給人民會,人民會去了解報告委員,我們是有這樣做,現在簽了二七案但是我們會繼續再處理是有在進行的,謝謝好,這個部分要請台糖公司繼續加油但是很重要的"},{"start":451.421,"end":459.31,"text":"這裡面之所以一直會爭執有時候會拖很久你們台堂一直會強調要試駕 要用試駕"},{"start":463.672,"end":490.259,"text":"過去這個第一次的時候九十幾年第一次的時候是用公告限制公告限制現在我們都是按照公告限制不是按照市價喔我知道那個董事長如果從我剛才就這個整個台塘企的這個土地你們是賺很多啦為什麼呢第一個本來就不是你買的"},{"start":491.616,"end":511.071,"text":"不是你台糖公司,一個公司通常土地都是自己買的,對不對?台糖公司的土地不是買的,是政府一個辦法把它直接就交給你了,這是第一個。第二,我們的鄉親自己的土地,"},{"start":512.096,"end":539.603,"text":"然後還要繳租約繳了幾十年的租約從民國35年開始一直繳租約是管理我們要花很多人力那個我知道但是畢竟你你拿到的是租金那個董事長你可能不是很清楚之所以可以真化編寶的地事實上我們的鄉親因為當初是一整片的"},{"start":540.819,"end":567.69,"text":"日本的時候是一整片事實上我們的鄉親的住家在那邊的或是自行耕種的這些自從台糖接收以後也一樣繼續使用這才會有成豬才會有成豬才會繳豬業所以事實上是他自己使用在管理你們只不過是繳"},{"start":569.227,"end":589.742,"text":"收租金所以這個部分不要太在意說我有花很多的錢沒有沒有所以這部分我們就依相關的規定來辦理好不好好謝謝委員以後不要再討論什麼市價按照過去的案例公告限值對我們都是遵照公告限值對對對對謝謝好謝謝謝謝好謝謝鄭天才"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:56:56.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:57:00.257000+08:00","text":"主席，有請台糖公司董事長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T10:57:00.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:57:06.939000+08:00","text":"有請台糖公司吳董事長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T10:57:06.939000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T10:57:07.939000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:57:06.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:57:07.720000+08:00","text":"吳董事長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:57:13.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:57:34.427000+08:00","text":"台糖的前身就是日本株式會社，日本當初成立株式會社，以花蓮、臺東來講，就將很多的原住民土地變成日本株式會社的土地。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:57:35.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:58:41.797000+08:00","text":"臺灣光復之後，當然日本株式會社無法把土地帶回日本，但是行政院成立了台灣糖業監理委員會，後來也成立了台糖公司，針對這些土地，行政院發布了收復區敵偽產業處理辦法，就將日本株式會社的土地全部移給台糖公司，成為台糖公司的土地，有這樣的歷史背景，所以後來我們很多鄉親就要跟台糖承租，自己的土地被拿走了，然後還要承租、繳租金。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:58:43.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:58:53.225000+08:00","text":"當初第一次的租約日期就是在35年5月1日，所以他們就一直繳租金。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:58:56.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:59:05.696000+08:00","text":"我過去在臺灣省政府服務，當然在臺灣省政府時代也曾經跟台糖協調，所以當時有增編為原住民保留地。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:59:09.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:59:28.264000+08:00","text":"後來精省之後，行政院在95年第一次核定將原住民使用的台糖土地，符合增劃編原住民保留地的部分由原民會價購，我那時候在原民會擔任常務副主委。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:59:29.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:59:39.162000+08:00","text":"第二次價購是在112年7月27日，當然如果省政府時期不算的話，就行政院來講是第二次。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:59:40.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T10:59:51.947000+08:00","text":"我們看行政院的函裡面表示原則同意，並照國家發展委員會審議意見辦理。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T10:59:52.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:00:28.130000+08:00","text":"我們現在來談國發會的審議意見，國發會審議的意見在(二)特別提到，因為增劃編原住民保留地從過去臺灣省政府時代，於76年開始調查，然後77年決定只要能夠證明77年2月1日以前原住民即使用祖先的土地，就可以增劃編為原住民保留地。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:00:29.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:00:34.535000+08:00","text":"這是當時的一個公文，所以國發會也依據這個特別提到「7721」。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:00:36.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:01:02.177000+08:00","text":"因為我們第一次、第二次價購都是用35年以前的部分，之後還有一部分也有價購，但是現在國發會特別提到7721以前只要符合臺灣省政府時代所訂，祖先留下來的土地可以證明的都可以，所以就以7721為基準。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:01:04.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:01:59.195000+08:00","text":"因此這個部分要請台糖公司協助，只要是原住民承租或者是占用的，你把這些土地還沒有被原民會價購增編為原住民保留地的全部拿出來，把土地的地段、地號，還有誰使用、承租、占用這個土地的資料給原民會，原民會會透過其增劃編原住民保留地的程序去調查、了解，這樣的話，就可以繼續再辦理行政院所核定的第三次價購，這是國發會所交辦的任務。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:01:59.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:02:12.284000+08:00","text":"這個部分本席也曾經在去（114）年質詢過，不曉得同仁有沒有新的進度？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:02:14.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:02:27.718000+08:00","text":"報告委員，當然上次該被價購或是返還原住民的，大概都有處理了，但是我們一定會遵照這個……沒有問題，我們會做這樣的處理。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:02:28.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:02:38.281000+08:00","text":"當初原住民保留地還有一些地方，比方說我家種田，隔壁是台糖的土地，一點點而已，為什麼呢？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:02:39.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:03:12.781000+08:00","text":"因為當初政府要徵稅，很多人都不去納稅，因為那時候的收入很低，每年都要繳稅，大家都不要，不要的話，有一些就變成台糖去繳稅，變成台糖的土地，所以這個有歷史背景，當然台糖也兼負繳稅及幫政府看管土地的功能，謝謝，我們一定會遵照相關的……","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:03:15.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:03:53.974000+08:00","text":"董事長，你講的是一小部分，重點是國發會已經寫得很明確，只要7721以前使用祖先的土地到現在，無論是出租或是占用，都希望能夠透過增劃編為原住民保留地，當然原民會還是要去價購，原民會要去釐清，所以你們的責任就是依國發會的意見把這些符合條件的全部給原民會，原民會會去了解。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:03:55.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:04:04.499000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們有這樣做，現在簽了27案，但是我們會繼續再處理，我們是有在進行的，謝謝。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:04:04.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:04:09.701000+08:00","text":"這個部分要請台糖公司繼續加油。是。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:04:10.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:04:31.194000+08:00","text":"但是很重要的，這裡面之所以一直會爭執，有時候會拖很久，台糖一直強調要用市價，過去九十幾年第一次價購的時候是用公告現值。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:04:32.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:04:38.035000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在我們都是按照公告現值，不是按照市價。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:04:38.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:04:50.138000+08:00","text":"我知道，董事長，如果從我剛才就整個台糖取得土地說明，你們是賺很多，為什麼呢？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:04:50.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:05:01.042000+08:00","text":"第一個，本來就不是台糖公司買的，一個公司的土地通常都會自己買，對不對？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:05:01.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:05:09.128000+08:00","text":"台糖公司的土地不是買的，是政府一個辦法把它直接交給你，這是第一個。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:05:09.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:05:21.218000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們鄉親自己的土地還要繳租約，繳了幾十年的租約，從民國35年開始一直繳租約。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:05:21.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:05:23.218000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實我們管理要花很多人力……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:05:23.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:22.255000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是畢竟你拿到的是租金，董事長，你可能不是很清楚，之所以可以增劃編保留地，因為當初是一整片土地，日本的時候是一整片，事實上我們鄉親的住家在那邊的或是自行耕種的這些土地，自從台糖接收以後也一樣繼續使用，才會有承租，才要繳租約，所以事實上是他自己使用、管理，你們只不過是收租金，所以這個部分不要太在意說你有花很多的……沒有、沒有，所以這部分你們就依相關的規定來辦理，好不好？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:22.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:23.016000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:23.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:25.858000+08:00","text":"以後不要再討論什麼市價。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:25.858000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:26.858000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有按照市價。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:26.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:28.640000+08:00","text":"過去就按慣例是公告現值，好不好？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:29.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.082000+08:00","text":"對，我們都是按照公告現值。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.342000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳董事長明昌","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.342000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝委員。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.462000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:31.542000+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭天財委員，謝謝吳董事長。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:32.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:34.327714+08:00","text":"我們現在休息8分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:34.627714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:35.770571+08:00","text":"休息（11時6分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:36.070571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:37.784857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時15分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:38.084857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:39.799143+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T11:06:40.099143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T11:06:43.527714+08:00","text":"接下來有請賴惠員委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}