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攸關發現金的韌性特別預算第二題是114年度附屬單位預算第三題是115年度總預算第四題是涉及中央對地方一般性補助款及計劃型補助款的財劃法修正案"},{"start":1986.687,"end":2013.598,"text":"那另外要跟各位跟預算無關的是第五題有關公民複決本院通過選罷法的複決公投案中選會含請本院來提出意見書再者我們依序進行協商現在進行第一題的協商第一題協商的提案以國防部提案最多所以本席在這裡建議我們先從通案開始"},{"start":2014.54,"end":2043.619,"text":"然後再進行各部會由於海洋事務委員會管主委辦公室是在高雄所以我們特別體諒我們管主委還有舟車上銷後的時間我們把海洋事務委員會提為第一案那將它審完以後主委可以回到高雄去上班這一點各位黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有好那謝謝大家的配合那現在我來開始介紹各位列席的官員首先介紹行政院主席長陳主席長好 歡迎您"},{"start":2044.82,"end":2058.108,"text":"財政部莊部長 歡迎您內政部劉部長 歡迎您教育部鄭部長 歡迎您經濟部龔部長 歡迎您老動部洪部長 歡迎農業部陳部長 歡迎您衛福部池部長"},{"start":2073.007,"end":2087.743,"text":"衛福部時務部長 沒關係 我們可以等一下海洋委員會的管主委 歡迎您現在我們開始進行第一題的協商通案開始國防部顧部長 歡迎您"},{"start":2103.956,"end":2123.187,"text":"好 我們現在通過第一個組決議部分大家有沒有寶貴意見請行政部門表示請問國民黨團提案有沒有寶貴意見行政部門說明一下"},{"start":2135.998,"end":2148.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2150.749,"end":2175.806,"text":"陳主席長請問有沒有寶貴意見這個部分就是我們有跟國民黨團有報告過就是這個改善報告是不是改成改善書面報告那這個黨團也同意這個部分是不是國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見我們就修正通過好 謝謝我們進入第二案"},{"start":2177.185,"end":2186.296,"text":"主決議 各位委員 各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見來 請行政院表達意見"},{"start":2188.755,"end":2216.238,"text":"好 請 洪部長請好 那個第二案主決議這個是高金委員跟國民黨團的提案那主要是針對這個我們支持勞工安定就業的部分那只是因為我們其實在特別條例裡面其實寫得很清楚其實這一次在特別預算裡面編列支持勞工安定就業主要是因應關稅跟國際情勢的不確定性"},{"start":2217.159,"end":2243.119,"text":"那但是這個高進委員的這個提案他比較是針對在0403跟馬太安的艷澀湖的霸體之後族人的就業的狀況那所以高進委員是希望說我們要把原住民青年的就業計畫跟臨時上工納入在這個特別預算的執行範圍裡面可是這可能會跟我們在特別條例裡面框定的這個"},{"start":2244.62,"end":2271.489,"text":"支持勞工安定就業的前提是不太一樣的可是高金委員其實期待的援助民族青年就業跟臨時上工計畫這個事情我們一定會做我們本來就會做只是不一定是一定要把它擺在特別預算的範疇裡面來做所以我們是提了一個修正案是希望說可不可以在第二段的部分改成援請相關主管機關也就是勞動部那應辦理輔助援助民族青年就業及"},{"start":2272.969,"end":2292.882,"text":"臨時上工等項目 那納入執行項目的這六個字可以拿掉納入執行項目 因為這邊寫納入執行項目的意思高進委員應該是要指說納入這個特別預算的裡面其實這在我們平常的計畫裡面我們就會做那第三行有一個同時要求於特別預算執行期間"},{"start":2293.863,"end":2320.545,"text":"把这个要求特别预算执行期间这几个字也可以删掉因为如果它在我们常态性的计划里面我们就会做的话就不用限制一定要在特别预算的执行期间所以我们其实是有一个这样子的修正是希望能够来取得国民党团跟高金委员的同意那这我们会做只是跟我们一开始特别预算设定这个劳工安定就业的名目可能是比较不符合的这样子"},{"start":2320.965,"end":2347.647,"text":"好 謝謝洪部長的說明副總統請坐那請沛翔副署長請說明同意好 國民黨團同意那我們就修正通好 謝謝那你把書面資料拿過來其實就劃掉這六個字嘛劃掉納入執行項目還有要求於特別預算執行期間這兩個字然後第二段的第一個有一個應將寫著應辦理我們就直接就是辦理了麻煩把書面資料拿過來謝謝洪部長請拿過來 謝謝"},{"start":2352.93,"end":2366.809,"text":"好 我們第二案我們就修正通過我們現在進入第三案主決議好 麻煩請行政院說明"},{"start":2379.642,"end":2393.63,"text":"請經濟部請這個案子就照辦理好 謝謝經濟部意見經濟部照辦好 我們第三案就照案通過第四個組決議台灣民眾黨團所提出"},{"start":2399.685,"end":2419.62,"text":"那也請行政院來說明 謝謝報告院長遵照辦理好 謝謝行政院照辦我們第四案以主決於照案通過我們現在進入第一款我們調整一下請海洋事務委員會各位黨團幹部容我再提醒大家一下我們先把次序調為第一個海洋事務委員會"},{"start":2425.067,"end":2427.989,"text":"麻煩請海洋事務委員和管主委請說明各位委員請聽管主委說明 謝謝"},{"start":2442.508,"end":2467.526,"text":"非常謝謝院長能夠給予海洋委員會有機會提前來做預算的審查那特別說明的是海委會總共相關的案件包括有第170億案第170億案是翁曉琳委員等五位委員的提案那是針對我們在國家海洋研究院裡面所編列的10億9930萬元"},{"start":2471.468,"end":2496.058,"text":"要做有關於海洋的地形、海床、地質以及災害潛勢跟水溫監測之用那因為有關於我們的海洋的科學的調查跟研究一直都處於非常荒蕪的階段而鄰近的國家卻比我們更了解我們的海洋"},{"start":2496.698,"end":2512.733,"text":"所以這個計畫有必要非常急迫的趕快來展開而且它也是我們國土防衛當中很重要的一環那非常感謝溫委員接受我們的說明那這個案和溫委員這裡"},{"start":2514.374,"end":2531.179,"text":"達成的最後的一個決議是凍結1億元然後我們在每一個會期都以書面報告來提供執行的進度跟成果報告這是第171案謝謝 那個海洋事務委員會翁委員請發言"},{"start":2541.123,"end":2556.799,"text":"海洋研究院剛剛也來跟我討論這個案子那我要特別強調就是說其實我是很支持海洋研究院所做的這個相關研究計畫但是呢這個坦白說不應該是要編列在特別預算裡面也希望未來海委會能夠"},{"start":2557.5,"end":2576.815,"text":"以年度常態性的預算去支持海洋研究院所做的相關的研究那這一次因為考慮到就是說他們這個海洋監測的一些急迫性那我這邊就是勉勉與同意那希望他們能夠按照我們這個所討論的結果來執行好 謝謝翁委員的補充說明我們請台灣民眾黨黃總召請說明"},{"start":2580.254,"end":2594.65,"text":"謝謝院長因為討論到海洋研究院的部分跟我們後面跟管主委這邊所下的同一個科目項目的174案有重疊我想說就一併表達意見就是說"},{"start":2596.81,"end":2611.496,"text":"針對國家海洋研究院的這件事情台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們基本上是採取支持的立場所以當初在修法的過程當中我們也積極的表達我們的看法提供一些法律上面的修正的建議給海委會做參考"},{"start":2613.937,"end":2636.284,"text":"只不過說我們現在在討論 在處理 在審議的是因應國際情勢的一個特別預算它不是一般 年度的公務預算因此我們當看到在國家海洋研究院裡面就針對有關於海洋水文監測監測能量等等的一些"},{"start":2637.785,"end":2653.159,"text":"預算編高達十億的時候我們其實有一點驚訝驚訝的理由不是說這些事情不應該做而是本來國家海洋研國家海洋研究院裡面他們本來的業務範圍其實在COVER就處理這樣的事情"},{"start":2654.215,"end":2681.716,"text":"但是現在本來應該要編列在國家海洋研究院裡面它每一年它業務範圍要去處理的事情現在突然用一個特別預算的方式去cover這個工作項目就會導致到說現在一般的預算跟現在的特別預算全部掛在國家海洋研究院下面那你所要執行的工作跟它本來的業務跟任務範圍是一樣的情況之下"},{"start":2682.877,"end":2697.368,"text":"出現了這樣子的一個特別預算要去做它本來就應該要做的事情跟年度預算彼此之間的關係還有跌床駕屋老實說讓我們對於這一項的預算要全數的予以支持"},{"start":2698.189,"end":2718.123,"text":"是沒有辦法所以我們才在174案當中提案減列2億元我們也希望因為如果是按照預算法一般的法則的話其實應該要全數刪掉因為這本來就應該要回到一般的年度預算去處理的這總會變成是國家海航研究院"},{"start":2719.059,"end":2743.762,"text":"他自己本來的任務範圍在沒有特別預算的情況之下用年度預算沒有辦法去執行這個部分先提出來跟院長還有讓其他黨團來代表好 謝謝黃總召的說明各位黨團幹部我們現在171號我們先確定管主委的發言還有翁委員發言我們就有凍結一改提出書面報告 好吧如果大家有沒有意見 171"},{"start":2746.013,"end":2759.127,"text":"沒有沒有沒有先171好不好沒問題那我們第一171我們再講一遍我們凍結一議員然後提出書面報告修正通過沒問題好我們進入172改組決議各位有沒有意見沒意見172通過改組決議修正通過173"},{"start":2766.291,"end":2792.828,"text":"173的話 國民黨團所提案 管主委請說明好嗎謝謝 剛剛羅委員有跟羅委員報告就是說第173案跟羅委員溝通以後羅委員是指示我們說凍結兩千萬元但是以專案報告那因為考量到就是說專案報告是涉及跨委員會的聯席會議那未來要排案的時候可能就會比較複雜"},{"start":2793.849,"end":2820.618,"text":"那另外就是今天到目前為止我們所有的凍結案在海委會的部分都是用書面報告所以剛剛有跟羅委員請示說那能不能就是說我們也比較像剛剛171案所做的決議我們以每個會期都用書面報告來說明當會期那個階段的進度用這樣的方式來處理不曉得羅委員是不是能夠同意"},{"start":2821.464,"end":2842.574,"text":"謝謝管主委說明那羅委員現在就是海洋事務委員會羅主委表達了就是凍結兩千萬元然後每一個會期提出一次書面報告您有沒有意見沒意見好那我們就修正通過現在進入剛才黃國昌總召所關切的第174案黃國昌總召已經表達意見請管主委請說明"},{"start":2844.595,"end":2871.258,"text":"謝謝黃主席的指導那特別跟大會報告也跟黃委員特別說明就是說我們常常會面臨這種責難就是說你為什麼不是應該在本預算嗎但是跟各位委員報告就是說海委會它剛剛成立是一個新的機關那它成立的時候呢說實在的政府的預算非常的有限它沒有框給我們很多的預算"},{"start":2871.798,"end":2899.868,"text":"因此海委會在做全海域調查一年的預算只有五千萬元以下所以我們如果要做完我們的全海域調查大概要一百年我們才有能力去了解我們的海洋但是跟院長跟大家報告的是就像是我們今天都還去撿到鄰近國家的浮標也就是鄰近國家對於我們周邊海域的研究可以說是既深且廣"},{"start":2901.228,"end":2918.155,"text":"我這張圖只不過是以我們海巡署有爭獲的在台灣周邊的海域所做的40艘鄰近國家40艘科研船它的航機密密麻麻的在我們的海域做這種調研"},{"start":2919.395,"end":2935.615,"text":"可是我們真的是望陽星探我們能夠對我們的海域做調查要調查水文要調查所有的水文資料也好地形地質的資料也好我們幾乎都沒有預算我們一定要特別的去用"},{"start":2936.135,"end":2959.537,"text":"中長期的預算來做呢或者是像這樣好不容易我們有機會可以有特別預算而且基本上這個工作他在國安的層次也是屬於國土防衛當中對於我們海域意識的了解也就是MDA的了解很重要的一環所以真的是非常希望說能不能請一定不要再給我們刪減因為"},{"start":2961.218,"end":2980.645,"text":"要做這件事情我們大概評估起來要達到百億的預算多年的累積可能才有可能做好那好不容易我們能夠有這十億來開始它真的也有急迫性而且也是一個開始所以還是請大院能夠給我們支持"},{"start":2982.213,"end":3010.338,"text":"謝謝管主委的說明那台灣民眾黨 黃總召要再補充嗎好 請黃總召請我必須要再強調一次喔針對有關於海域環境監測的能量水文的監測 海洋的地形海礦的預警等等這些工作要做我們不否認台灣民眾黨立法院黨團也是支持的但是我們現在在處理的是特別預算"},{"start":3011.451,"end":3026.127,"text":"在國家海洋研究院裡面它所編的這個象下是國家海洋研究院它本來設立的宗旨包括剛剛管主委所講的非常多的內容當初這個條例我們會支持理由就在這個地方"},{"start":3027.148,"end":3040.255,"text":"我們現在在處理的不是國家海洋研究院它年度的預算是它特別的預算那你如果說應該要編在一般的預算裡面你本來就應該要做的事情這本來就是你的業務範圍"},{"start":3042.561,"end":3060.264,"text":"這本來就是你的業務範圍那你就應該要編在年度預算當中怎麼會用特別預算的方式來加以處理呢因為編不進去 真的沒有錢不是 那行政院整體上面預算到底要怎麼編不好意思齁從立法院上面的立場"},{"start":3062.096,"end":3090.77,"text":"我們只能夠省 只能夠刪 只能夠動但是這個業務就不是用本預算的業務即使說我們編在這裡他也必須要用中長期計畫特別的這個計畫性的預算因為我就針對有關於國家海洋研究院裡面你們在這個特別預算裡面所描述的工作內容跟我在看到你們年度的預算裡面所描述的工作內容基本上是高度重疊的"},{"start":3091.994,"end":3105.993,"text":"基本上是高度重疊所以 如果今天行政院在各個部會彼此之間的分配上面你是 不是在因應這個高關稅不是在因應這個什麼國際情勢強化而是國家海洋研究院裡面"},{"start":3107.014,"end":3136.124,"text":"你要有多少的capacity要做多少的事情本來就是業務上面要在做的在體制上面本來就應該要反映在年度預算當中你如果說今天是以用沒有錢當作理由或行政院沒有給你們這麼多額度來當作理由要塞在特別預算當中的話這恐怕不是我們當初設置這個特別條例處理這個特別的預算所要達成的目的好 謝謝黃總召發言我們請羅志強 羅書長請發言您稍待一下 管書會"},{"start":3137.694,"end":3164.296,"text":"我覺得基本上這顯現我們很多預算上的根本性矛盾為什麼因為坦白講今天這個特別預算它的源頭其實是對冷關稅風暴結果最後民進黨一直堅持要把很多所謂的防衛韌性加進來就出現今天剛剛這個情形當然如果說真的有急迫性按照預算法83條的一些急迫性的情況我們可以特別來考量可是我也必須講就是說"},{"start":3165.737,"end":3186.062,"text":"海洋這個研究院它這個項目我不敢講說沒有必要性沒有需要性但是它的急迫性在哪裡事實上你就發現它就沒有辦法去詮釋這件事那當然我們為了考量這個計畫本身還是有這個需要所以我是非常同意民眾黨它今天只是檢列兩億元"},{"start":3187.202,"end":3208.059,"text":"那你真的不夠的部分你想辦法在這個一般的預算在我們總預算或公務預算裡面你去把它編進去或者你即便是中長期的計畫你再想辦法去編進去我覺得總就是還是要回去回應一件根本的事因為這件事情坦白它本來就可以編在一般預算裡面那今天減列兩億元我覺得我們的海洋研究還是可以繼續執行計畫以上"},{"start":3210.013,"end":3227.095,"text":"這裡面我知道鍾委員您稍等這裡面就是一個弔詭因為因應了美國關稅所以提出了特別預算在特別預算海洋事務委員會突然發現他的海洋調查非常的重要那假設沒有關稅事情沒有特別預算那海洋事務委員會怎麼辦這變成一個大家在思考這個好 請鍾委員請"},{"start":3228.877,"end":3250.494,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想各黨的意見領袖都提出了這樣的看法那我想因為我們整個的特別預算它的特別條例的法源大概涵蓋了幾個部分首先因應國際情勢這個國際情勢當然美中關稅的談判是一個部分但是接下來要強化經濟社會"},{"start":3253.176,"end":3276.467,"text":"強化經濟社會及民生這個是沒有問題的還有國安任性那我想國安任性這個本來這個題目配上前面的因應國際情勢強化各黨有各黨的解讀但是總而言之在我們特別條例通過的同時其實各黨都有一個共識就是大家都有各取所需有人認為強調的是中美關稅的風暴"},{"start":3280.009,"end":3301.371,"text":"那麼這種情況之下要強化國內的經濟社會的韌性也有人認為這時候要顧及民生那當然國安韌性在這段時間也是非常的迫切需要所以其實在特別條例當時通過的時候我們這個題目名稱就涵蓋了這三個範圍所以因此是不是說如果以特別條例的性質"},{"start":3302.792,"end":3312.405,"text":"特別條例的性質已經涵蓋了這三個目的的話那符合這三種目的的特別預算的編列是應該是可以在我們本院的思考範圍內啦所以我想大家是兼容並蓄都兼採各黨側重的範圍那也很感謝在171案"},{"start":3319.614,"end":3340.631,"text":"包括國民黨跟翁小林委員對於同一筆預算他表達了可以以提出書面報告的方式然後再凍結一部分那我想是不是可以請求我們這個過程是不是各黨我們都是以包括國民黨翁小林委員的凍結數及書面報告來責成海委會對後續相關預算的執行我們來要求"},{"start":3349.257,"end":3376.438,"text":"那個現在館主委您稍微等一下你綜合大家的意見您再做最後一次發言好不好我們現在還有柯委員跟張委員要發言您稍待一下柯總統請主席各位同仁剛才有171案已經很清楚兩個案子完全一樣這樣兩個案子完全一樣結果出於不同的方式而且171案已經通過我在這裡拜託就是"},{"start":3379.075,"end":3383.02,"text":"你師父在意嘛 那副總召大家都不要堅持 就找171案好 張委員請"},{"start":3397.97,"end":3425.97,"text":"那個剛我們國昌總召有提的那個國家海洋研究院這個預算我們是會支持的不過我現在提一個有重疊的地方因為我在115年度的公務預算就是你送到我們立法院的預算書上面看到兩筆一筆是這個海洋科學跟資訊研究作業會編的一億九千多萬第二個就是海洋生態跟保育研究作業七千一百多萬這兩筆看起來都是重疊啦"},{"start":3427.713,"end":3430.756,"text":"所以整體這個十億九千多萬我們會支持可是我們建議把剛剛講的重疊加起來兩億把它刪掉避免重疊跟委員報告完全不一樣完全不一樣我們真的要做地震的研究真的是越拖又拖兩年"},{"start":3447.911,"end":3463.02,"text":"那個海底的地形、地質跟我們的地震的預測與了解息息相關我們現在幾乎是無知那我們還要繼續保持這種無知然後把它推遲一年又一年嗎"},{"start":3463.98,"end":3478.2,"text":"那我是不是因為今天我們院長有機會我們國海院院長有機會然後可以跟溫委員做非常仔細的說明那也得到溫委員的支持那能不能現在我們也請院長在這個場合"},{"start":3479.361,"end":3507.783,"text":"因為我今天有打電話但是委員不接我電話你就不接我電話啊那我是要跟我也希望跟貴黨我也希望趕快去貴黨做報告嘛那能不能就是說沒有聯繫上沒辦法做報告的這部分我們現在請我們國海院的陳院長來跟大家說明為什麼會那麼有急迫性好不好好 各位黨團各位我們請那個陳院長簡短二要說明一下海洋調查的它的急迫性好不好"},{"start":3508.764,"end":3528.622,"text":"好 陳院長請主席謝謝我想還是很謝謝翁委員最後對我們這個提案的一個支持那其實我們提的這個特別預算跟過去是不一樣的因為過去其實台灣做的海洋研究調查都比較是屬於船載式的是調查船出去的然後還有包括是屬於比較平面的"},{"start":3529.062,"end":3553.709,"text":"那我們現在目前這個特別預算呢會針對山尾的空間然後也會在海底裡面去佈陣這個所謂的那個海底的那個地震的儀器還有甚至所謂的水下的無人載具所以這一些的一個花費其實事實上是費用來講相對比較比我們以前所做的這種比較傳統的調查事實上費用是比較高昂的那過去以來剛剛成如我們主委提到的因為過去幾年以來大概預算大概一年大概五六千萬"},{"start":3554.449,"end":3579.966,"text":"那做的大概都是屬於我要講都是屬於平面或者近海式的空間那這次特別預算特別可以去補足我們比較屬於深海的還有比較外洋式的然後三維的空間那這部分當然是有它的一個必要性因為這部分的一個空間裡面的一個資訊確實現在是比較缺乏的那事實上主委當然有提到因為國海院的成立本身我們就有本身有這個義務也有這個使命要去做這個所謂全海域的一個調查"},{"start":3580.546,"end":3590.788,"text":"那我認為這是一般我們調查裡面的infrastructure就是一個基礎的一個設施那也希望說透過這樣子的一個特別預算裡面可以把這樣子的一個工作裡面兩年把它補齊 以上"},{"start":3593.447,"end":3618.314,"text":"謝謝陳院長很清楚的說明那各位黨團幹部現在我想海洋事務委員會也講得很清楚那個管主委還有話要補充嗎我是說那能不能就是說我們多凍結五千萬變成凍結一億五千萬然後讓我們提報告的時候我們還是每個會期都來提書面報告報告進度"},{"start":3619.814,"end":3648.213,"text":"能不能用這樣還是請民眾黨這邊是不是委員們是不是能夠給我們支持因為真的是很珍貴的預算沒問題 那個各位黨團幹部現在管主委的意思說第174案就是能不能改為凍結五千萬然後加每一個會期向我們立法院來做報告那這樣子各位黨團幹部針對這一點管主委所提的這個有沒有辦法接受還是要 那個羅委員請"},{"start":3650.474,"end":3674.883,"text":"我覺得兩邊是完全在不同的平行宇宙基本上並沒有否定今天這個海洋研究院講的所謂的必要性但是實質上我們也看到說過他也沒有所謂的今天你一定要編在特別預算裡面的急迫性跟所謂合於預算法第83條的理由那我覺得民眾黨今天這個提案我覺得已經是非常的折衷也周到了"},{"start":3675.623,"end":3698.768,"text":"因為國民黨本來的立場是認為說你這根本就應該放在所謂的那個一般的預算裡面所以是10億是全部減劣的但是小英委員是被說服嘛所以他改動解但是我覺得民眾黨的邏輯也很對啊基本上10億減劣2億元我覺得是合道理但是因為我認為這個已經沒有辦法達成共識了那不如就保留送院會表決嘛對 謝謝好 陳委員請 首先請"},{"start":3701.974,"end":3727.555,"text":"好 謝謝剛剛羅委員的說明但是我想我們有一個不同立場也許我可以提出疑問請院長再多說明確實剛剛在野黨團提的是認為這個跟國安任性沒有關係但是您剛剛的其實剛剛主委也已經說明那是不是可以請院長就您科學專業的角度告訴大家您剛剛所說的不管是深海的 外洋的 三維的或者是海底的部件甚至是水下無人載具"},{"start":3728.155,"end":3741.371,"text":"相關的研究跟後續持續計畫的推動跟這一次國安任性的部分的關聯可不可以幫我們說明一下也許我們有機會在不要保留的情況下說服這一黨委員好不好 謝謝好 陳院長請"},{"start":3744.624,"end":3761.073,"text":"謝謝 那因為在這個特別預算裡面我們特別會去針對那個海底有可能的陣緣去做一個調查那事實上最近之前發生的那個花蓮大地震那現在有點事後諸葛那現在事後諸葛你們是發現就是說它其實它的陣緣也是來自於東部的那個所謂的一個斷層"},{"start":3762.254,"end":3782.35,"text":"所以事實上如果說我們可以在這就整個的一個台灣市周圍的一個海域裡面對它可能的一個增援的一個偵測的話確實會對於我們整個國土還有包括在海在放的一個航舊裡面事實上是有很大的一個注意然後還有包括就是我們所做的這個水文的調查那水文就是一般我們講的海流海礦或者是溫研"},{"start":3783.191,"end":3812.123,"text":"那這些其實還有包括甚至包括以後的這個水下的一些深井的一個調查那這個都有可能跟水下的一個活動是有關係的那這個事實上在未來的一個國防的一個運用上都是有很大的一個一個不可或缺的一部分的一個很重要的一個資訊那我現在要強調就是說我們現在目前雖然國海院成立大概不到六年那整個現在目前的一個科研的工作也是持續在進行可是都是一部分一部分那現在還是比較是屬於平面性的一個空間比較屬於近海的"},{"start":3812.463,"end":3828.452,"text":"那我覺得我有透過這一次的一個預算裡面才有辦法去突破比較外揚的還有比較三維的一個空間以上不知道現在有沒有辦法說服再等對啦"},{"start":3834.051,"end":3863.631,"text":"委員請發言 柯總召請準備事實上照我們要鎖法 預算法第83條規定的特別預算老實講這本來這個項目就應該是回到公務預算這是第一個點那第二個我剛剛已經很明確跟你講你今年編來的815年的115明年的總預算裡面項目就是重疊項目都是一樣的嘛那本來老實講應該跟國民黨一樣應該是全三的我們今天已經非常的客氣我也認為說沒有錯這本來公務裡面有很多是要國安跟任性都要做嘛所以我們那個今天"},{"start":3864.951,"end":3880.799,"text":"小強比較善良 你說十億 不是十億欸十億九千多萬 十一億只刪了兩億欸好不好 那我們就堅持刪兩億啦 好不好那如果真的有意見 我們到院委會去處理我知道 我知道 不要急 好 我知道那個台灣民眾黨的堅持一樣 請柯總長請"},{"start":3884.195,"end":3909.351,"text":"也是不在意拜託不要堅持吧讓他鬧下去啦因為大家我很冷靜的聽大家講話都很尊重坦白講的話同一個事情有一個凍結有一個刪除嘛那針對管主委剛才提出來他很誠意啊那這部分都凍結五千萬嘛這樣是一個同一個邏輯在做事情嘛我在這裡懇切拜託"},{"start":3911.92,"end":3925.186,"text":"那好了 那我們本案就保留不要 拜託 拜託真的一保留我就會哭那個院長保留一表決一毛錢都沒了 院長 院長剛才委員 拜託你要順勢這樣弄過去你怎麼亂裁決了委員 拜託院長"},{"start":3932.409,"end":3946.721,"text":"院長那個是不是請周秘書長說明一下因為我在看周秘書長的大作國會運作實務其實因為這171案跟174案剛剛一開始就有跟院長主席提示說因為雖然他"},{"start":3948.342,"end":3963.91,"text":"它的指定的項目一個是對海洋委員會主管的預算進行檢列那一個是對海洋研究院的預算進行檢列但是我們看它的決議文的內容它是寫說"},{"start":3965.661,"end":3985.82,"text":"國家海洋研究院單位預算編列不宜再重複編列他這裡面講的就是指現在我們174案的這個預算那這個預算想的內容金額是一模一樣那我們在海洋委員會主管的預算當中針對翁曉琳委員的提案已經審議過是使凍結書面報告室的凍資"},{"start":3989.784,"end":4015.232,"text":"那我們現在呢到174案又對同一筆預算進行審議那如果說大家覺得對前面那個案子的凍結的額度有意見那麼剛剛管主也很誠懇的提出把額度提高但是如果說同一個預算科目我們做出了兩個不同的決議一個做出是凍結一個是做成的簡列那這恐怕在我們秘書長的意識學上是不是可以用考量一下好 謝謝嘉秘委"},{"start":4015.892,"end":4030.04,"text":"我們請財務會的林專務委員跟大家報告說明一下不一樣的地方報告各位委員171案他是提案委員是針對主管當然他內容裡面有提到簡列"},{"start":4031.517,"end":4049.006,"text":"國家海洋研究院的相關研究經費它原來是全數檢列然後另外還有凍結海巡署的部分那目前174是針對海洋研究院的這個部分減了2億那其實 雖然它"},{"start":4050.246,"end":4064.98,"text":"我們在做的時候那是我們幫忙整理出來的匯增表所以我們把它列為第二項就是第九款的第二項我們把它列出來但是其實在我認知預算是不是有一事不在意這個好像在學理上是有爭議的我自己是這麼認為"},{"start":4066.101,"end":4071.067,"text":"我先覺得還是要倒帶一下因為實際上剛開始在講171的時候我們黃國昌委員就已經講說要一併除174但是"},{"start":4082.259,"end":4087.861,"text":"因為我們認知他還是可以做兩邊來分開處理所以當時並不是在處理把這兩個案子併起來處理因為是後來的大家討論的是分開來先討論17再討論17所以不是171結束以後14不在1就延展到174所以我認為這個部分並不是因為當時黃國昌委員就已經講要把174放進來"},{"start":4102.907,"end":4125.587,"text":"可是我們認為說他有些性質上的不同所以拆開17174所以在這邊我就不認為有疑似不在意的那個問題出現更何況疑似不在意 是不是私用那是另外一個爭議好 請黃總召請我們之前在處理預算的時候本來就是尊重各個提案委員一個案子一個案子去做處理過去向來都是這樣子"},{"start":4126.756,"end":4138.181,"text":"剛剛在處理翁委員的案子的時候我其實已經是基於善意我主動說了說好像跟174有關係所以我也在那個時候把我的理由都說明完了"},{"start":4139.011,"end":4167.045,"text":"接下來至於議事上面是不是要171 174合併處理還是接著順序171 172 173 174這樣處理其實我們沒有多說什麼都是尊重韓院長議事上面的主持所以如果說現在用一事不在意來當作理由或者是當作處理的基準化台灣民眾黨黨團沒有辦法接受未來為了避免類似的爭議再度發生我們是不是要先確認"},{"start":4168.286,"end":4190.994,"text":"接下來所有預算的提案單我們是要用什麼邏輯處理是一案一案一案處理還是把所有相同的案子統整好了以後有牽涉到相同的項目結的部分然後我們到時候討論的時候合併起來討論這個我們都尊重韓樂廠的議事主持謝謝黃國昌總召的清楚的說明柯總早請"},{"start":4193.213,"end":4217.535,"text":"我發現我們大家講的都很認真在這個議題上互相在討論請我做對面的副總召講一句話嘛這個應該不要再副總召你發言是希望副總召講話你應該講你自己要講的重點這我發現解套了吧OK 副總召發言的重點是希望副總召講兩句副總召你講的話我們再請管主委請"},{"start":4223.342,"end":4250.469,"text":"謝謝韓院長柯總召其實我在靜觀我都尊重每個委員所發表的意見但現在有一個小小的爭議確實如黃總召所說過去每一個委員的提案或是不同政黨的提案都是逐案來審查並沒有先由議事處把指向同一個案子都要合併起來"},{"start":4253.049,"end":4267.179,"text":"並案一起來審查過去比較沒有這樣的一個情況那至於呢這個是不是適用預算法83條我想這個大家的意見應該是一致的"},{"start":4268.171,"end":4281.55,"text":"那我想這個難得今天海院長在這個問題上詢問了這麼多次但我想還是我們還是尊重一下請那個海委會管主委是不是在跟這個黃總召"},{"start":4284.728,"end":4302.763,"text":"有善意的溝通我想什麼事大家很明確的在不違法的情況之下大家都可以討論那我想這個韓院長既然要我發言柯總長那你才是你才是同意他所請所以"},{"start":4304.384,"end":4322.637,"text":"所以現在我是覺得說大家氣氛也不錯啦那黃總召還有這個張幹事長沒關係 我想我們都尊重了我們都尊重 好謝謝 如果提醒一下我們還有100多個案我們請崑澤委員發言完畢管主委做最後說明"},{"start":4324.318,"end":4348.203,"text":"謝謝何院長其實我剛才聽不論是國民黨或是說民眾黨其實他們都是支持這筆預算只是說有在爭議說那是要列入特別預算呢還是說列入在年度的預算裡面那我想說既然已經列到我們這個任性特別預算裡面那剛剛這個國民黨的翁小林委員他其實也同意用凍結的方式要書面報告的方式來做處理"},{"start":4348.963,"end":4364.517,"text":"我剛才聽管主委講其實剛剛張委員所提到特別預算跟年度預算明年年度預算有重疊的地方他們也做了說明跟解釋是不同的他們也做了說明是不同的"},{"start":4365.137,"end":4386.623,"text":"那如果不清楚的地方可以再請館主委再做說明那我覺得如果大家都有這個心要來支持這筆預算的話那我們能不能用凍結來代替刪除因為其實你一刪掉之後等於這筆如果是保留啦保留等於是到院會就是會被刪掉了啦那我是不是既然有心要支持的話我們是不是用凍結來代替刪除謝謝"},{"start":4388.384,"end":4394.604,"text":"看守委員提的一個緩和一點 用凍結方式管主委您把握最後機會好嗎我要做裁決的 請"},{"start":4397.872,"end":4425.77,"text":"如果說以這筆預算的三千然後十億然後是三兩億的話那個比重十億九千然後是三兩億的話真的實在是重中之重不曉得有沒有可能如果說三兩千萬元然後讓我們努力的來做因為畢竟是海底政策地震的研究我們真的很希望有那個急迫性趕快來開始"},{"start":4427.231,"end":4450.916,"text":"那這樣的話也等於是對國海院的一個鼓勵好的好的我懂你的意思好謝謝管主委那個謝謝您表達完了嗎那如果真的是兩億的話兩億的話這實在是太珍貴的一筆預算一個計畫如果是兩億的話就是295億裡面兩億我們去自行調整"},{"start":4455.512,"end":4457.801,"text":"但是也真的是我才已經講兩千塊了"},{"start":4459.423,"end":4487.325,"text":"那這一筆預算我們真的希望能不能就是兩千萬讓我們讓我們來好好的來做好 謝謝管主委您說明好 好清楚那現在管主委的意思是說能不能調為三千 兩千萬這樣子我也知道這樣講好像壓力感覺到民眾黨對你們也不是很公平因為你們意見已經表達非常清楚了只是說在這種狀態之下有沒有可能我們現在只有兩個答案一 三兩千萬"},{"start":4488.286,"end":4492.339,"text":"二 就直接送院會就這樣子 好不好好 請直接送院會"},{"start":4493.632,"end":4521.781,"text":"好那我們就173案我們就保留送院會處理好謝謝管主委跟各位海洋委員會的列席官員好嗎我們後續大家掌握時間溝通就是說送院會之前我們真的完全沒有機會溝通嗎可以溝通嗎好我們會盡全力的來努力如果這一筆預算表決然後變成零預算的話好的好的管主委送院會前還是可以溝通啦不要硬拗"},{"start":4523.602,"end":4550.659,"text":"辛苦了 館主委 謝謝您謝謝 因為他們要趕回高雄所以我們把海洋事務委員會調為第一案謝謝館主委跟列席館長特別謝謝陳院長 謝謝謝謝你很專業的分析 謝謝好 我們現在回到第五案內政部請內政部有有有 劉部長帶劉部長請院長 各位委員 各位長官 陳委員大家好"},{"start":4562.526,"end":4579.776,"text":"我們進入第五案內政部老屋修繕請劉部長能不能表達一下意見跟各位黨團的成員報告有關第五案老屋修繕的部分其實這個老屋修繕所有的預算大概都是給要修繕的老屋的人"},{"start":4580.757,"end":4594.362,"text":"不是由我們的國家或包括國家住住中心來處理那原則上我們大概每一棟也就是說如果他是屬於耐震補強還可以修繕的話原來我們的預算大概是每一棟是補助200萬到500萬"},{"start":4596.383,"end":4606.835,"text":"那放在特別預算裡面就是說它是一個首發型的一個這樣的處理方式那當然那個民眾黨團有提到說那對於所謂的高齡者高齡者有兩個一個就是我們會跟這個衛福部的長照3.0它裡面的補助的項目會一起因為那個屬於內裝裡面怎麼樣幫助那個年紀比較大的"},{"start":4618.027,"end":4633.908,"text":"那另外一個就是說如果有高齡者並同這個老屋修繕一起的話那在室內裝潢的部分的我們在這個特別預算裡面就會加碼大概會增加兩成左右所以目前為止的這個50億大概都是要給有"},{"start":4634.409,"end":4655.042,"text":"有需求要做老屋修繕的這個部分那跟各位報告就是說我們國土署已經先針對目前在耐震補強尤其是四到六樓有問題的部分大概先盤點出來大概是257棟左右所以50億的部分大概是做這樣的分配以上簡單的報告好 謝謝劉部長說明麻煩請張七開委員請說明"},{"start":4657.642,"end":4680.017,"text":"有 內政部長不錯 看起來有準備啦事實上民眾黨提出 因為發現三個問題這五十億的這個老屋修繕第一個就是剛提的他是不是高齡者實際在居住或者是他是持有者或者至少要跟高齡者同住我們在這裡面沒有看到第一個就是剛提到的這個長照3.0你說內部的那個整個無障礙空間還有這個低碳建材 工法這些也都沒有看到嘛 對不對那第三個可能更重要的"},{"start":4688.282,"end":4714.455,"text":"這個本來這個勞務修正就是在公務預算裡面有的嘛那這次特別在特別預算裡面放了進來那我們要知道要知道你特別預算這個期滿之後怎麼樣回到公務預算繼續執行你只要提一個專案報告我們現在先51先凍結了一半先凍25億可是等你們提了這個專案報告到內政委員會通過之後經過同意我們就同意你凍置好不好把剛剛講這三點把它解釋清楚"},{"start":4714.835,"end":4721.554,"text":"真的照顧到高齡者而且呼應到這個長照3.0特別重要的期滿之後一定要回到公務預算"},{"start":4723.541,"end":4745.115,"text":"跟委員再補充報告有關老屋修繕的部分我們現在要放在特別預算的最主要理由是他可以馬上開辦那再來馬上開辦的時候我們會針對目前老屋修繕碰到的問題因為就我所了解如果他是老人要申請老屋修繕的部分的話他恐怕在金融上面會有問題就是說他去外面申請貸款會有問題"},{"start":4746.636,"end":4774.614,"text":"那我們要解決這個問題的話恐怕又要修法那如果要修法的話恐怕要在一兩年以上的時間也就是說兩年的時間呢讓我們在事辦方面是法律上面需要修改或者要跟衛福部對於長照三點的部分需要再做修正讓我們在未來的修法上面包括在金融權利變換上面可以做比較好的加碼的時候呢對於老宅延售的部分呢就會有比較好的一個方向那就可以列入未來的公務預算"},{"start":4775.114,"end":4794.819,"text":"可是他一定不會重疊不會重疊的理由就是說因為我們每一棟啊他如果申請完了他下一次不可能再申請啦這是一個然後再來呢目前我們覺得以目前來看的話呢老宅的延壽只要他是老宅就可以申請但是他如果老宅裡面有老人的話呢他申請的條件當然會更加碼所以其實他並沒有這個漢格的地方"},{"start":4800.16,"end":4811.034,"text":"也就是說以目前50億來講如果我們先讓我們先凍結一半那就表示我們只能執行一年但是各位委員都知道如果你要再跑選區的話房子要修繕"},{"start":4812.814,"end":4840.314,"text":"從你開始提出來到真正獲得補助這個時間絕對不是一週兩週如果在半年內能夠防止修繕然後開始找到工法找到好的部分的話通常沒有滿一年兩年以上大概不太可能那如果說先給一半讓我們執行一年的話第一個時間上確實有太緊迫的這個顧慮然後第二個呢就是說我們未來要再輔導他做老屋修繕尤其是弱勢族群的這個部分呢又會更慢"},{"start":4840.994,"end":4867.778,"text":"因為這裡面我們已經在找若干的國有的銀行來問看看他們有沒有可能針對高齡者願意給他做老屋修繕的必要的經費那這些經費呢一定不是只有五萬十萬這麼少一點點所以我們很希望說第一個可以提專案報告或提書面報告一定沒問題但是時間不能只有一年所以我們認為在特別預算裡面因為在這個民生相關的也是屬於我們在經濟面上面的一個特別預算"},{"start":4868.298,"end":4887.236,"text":"所以就請這個民眾黨團可不可以同意第一個我們一定會到委員會去報告但是呢盡量不用凍結的方式因為他是有多少給多少而且是給民眾裡面沒有任何是屬於公務機關裡面要用到的預算以上謝謝劉部長說明請宗家病委員發言傅坤吉總召請準備"},{"start":4887.898,"end":4914.191,"text":"好 謝謝主席我剛剛仔細的聆聽了我們的齊凱幹事長跟我們劉部長的說明我想這裡內政部應該很坦誠的說明一個困境就是原來他們這個老屋修繕原來的想像是對老者居住環境的改善所以申請的前提是必須先有老者然後再去修繕你的老屋那實務上在操作上我們發現了一個問題"},{"start":4916.152,"end":4939.622,"text":"第一老是否為老者所有這是第一個問題第二個以老者為申請者他可能要符合銀行貸款的條件是很難過關的一個七八十歲的老者為了修繕我們因為只是補助喔不是全部幫他出喔那如果說他還要去銀行貸款然後取得這個補助開始進行他所安身立命的老宅的修繕其實我們知道金融作業上"},{"start":4940.342,"end":4956.805,"text":"一般的行庫是不太願意對於七八十歲老人家提供這樣一個修繕的房屋的貸款因為他沒有再收入能力了所以目前的這個特別預算它調整不是以老人住在老宅以老人來提出而是以長者"},{"start":4957.566,"end":4981.804,"text":"有老屋本身就可以提出申請但是老屋本身要提出申請的時候他是以優先照顧裡面由長者居住的老宅那這就不太一樣了可能有兩代同住的或老老同住的那麼由適合資格的人因為有長者居住那來提出申請之後由這個提出申請的人去申請房屋的修繕貸款"},{"start":4982.825,"end":4985.227,"text":"但是內政部他會整合他們既有的老人的長照的評估未來在修繕的同時也去強化用他們的年度預算既有預算去強化在老宅修繕當中對長者環境的補強我覺得這是一個我們滾動式調整當中內政部發現了要照顧長者的居住環境在原來的政策下所做的一個修正"},{"start":5006.184,"end":5030.898,"text":"那我覺得這個修正呢應該很符合包括我們齊凱雄所在的我們中南部很多地區都有長者那他租的老宅那麼如果我們限定是因為以有長者來向政府提出老宅的修繕會有自然難行之處但是由老宅本身的所有權能來提出但是他們審查的時候以有長者居住的為優先並且整合他們既有的年度預算"},{"start":5031.298,"end":5035.079,"text":"給他在長者居住的環境內部設施上於補強既修了房子也幫裡面的長者的生活空間的需求也滿足了我覺得這樣的一個修正型的政策利用這次特別預算來滿足的確可以滿足我們很多鄉親的需求懇切的希望我們委員在您的選區裡面有長輩居住在老宅裡面的人考量到這個政策的修正的必要性我們予以支持"},{"start":5055.686,"end":5074.054,"text":"那如果說需要內政部提出專案報告那麼或許我們可以用什麼方式的決議來要求我相信這樣的目的也是張七開委員您看到我們在鄉間的這些老宅或獨居長者他們所需要的情況所做的一個努力那懇請來支持跟提亮謝謝嘉賓委員 我們請副總召請"},{"start":5078.499,"end":5105.914,"text":"謝謝主席我還是要再強調一下我們現在審查的是中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算條例其實有太多各部會所編入特別預算的這些相關的經費都不符合預算法83條的急迫性"},{"start":5107.045,"end":5117.664,"text":"但是尤其這這個一邊就是兩年這五十一一邊就是兩年所以現在原則上"},{"start":5122.205,"end":5149.635,"text":"這個民眾黨是提出凍結50%我想在這裡不管哪一個政黨對老屋的修繕還是獨居老人的支持我想各政黨沒有任何異議我覺得我們不要在這個上面打轉哪一個政黨對老人比較照顧我想講這些都多餘的大家都支持但是問題是適不適合放在特別預算裡面第二個兩年是不是要一次編列"},{"start":5151.155,"end":5168.026,"text":"所以民眾黨會提凍結50%就是在執行可能兩到三年給你一半的預算其實全部預算也都通過了只是前面凍結50%就是看你執行的情況如何再過來我想現在是這樣子"},{"start":5171.768,"end":5185.922,"text":"我想內政部也國土署也不斷地去跟民眾黨溝通也跟本黨有在溝通本黨張志倫委員也一直在關心這個事情我想我們是不是如果民眾黨同意的話"},{"start":5187.579,"end":5211.14,"text":"麻煩民主黨聽一下 副總召再跟你們講話如果說同意的話我們凍結50%是不是能改到凍結20%並且要專案報告後使得凍資如果可以的話副總召提出一個就凍結改為20%然後專案報告使得凍資 請黃總召表達意見同意同意前有幾句話一定要講清楚你不要急 我還請你 請發言第一個"},{"start":5214.101,"end":5217.566,"text":"今天討論這個特別預算本來是一年高關稅只有900多億但沒發現現在已經變成5000多億了"},{"start":5222.315,"end":5248.113,"text":"因為公務預算這個老屋的修建本來在年度預算本來就有在做所有的黨國民黨民眾黨大家都很支持老屋的這個修建可是在年度本來就在做所以我們本來是一毛錢都不給的大家知道嗎你要鎖這個財政紀律啊你要特別預算你本來就應該回到預算法第83條結果你一下子把所有東西都丟出來那我要請問以後年度預算要省嗎"},{"start":5249.505,"end":5265.03,"text":"所以第一要財政紀律第二更重要的嘉賓你一直在講照顧年長者這我們都有在照顧可是長久以來不管以前國民黨執政民進黨執政民眾黨做一個在野黨我們在強調老屋修建是重要我們要照顧長輩可是你剛剛講的一副好像是只有你們重視"},{"start":5266.51,"end":5290.196,"text":"你不要毀壞財政紀律 回到預算法第83條這是一個 第二個 大家做在重視的同時我們只要你做什麼事 預算是要給的喔可是我剛講的 因為你跟長照3.0沒有扣在一起嘛你到底無障礙空間 跟這個低碳建材你要怎麼做 包括剛講的 你是不是要照顧長輩高齡者有沒有住在裡面 他有沒有擁有這個房子你本來要再交代清楚啊"},{"start":5291.016,"end":5304.801,"text":"所以我們才說本來是一毛錢不給的後來我們 老實講我們就做了讓步了凍結50%那剛剛如果討論我就覺得如果剛剛國昌也同意好 我們就凍結20%可是我剛剛講的我明確要求的"},{"start":5306.55,"end":5332.455,"text":"明確要求一定要做到 特別是這個期滿之後不要再編特別預算了因為本來年度預算就在做嘛 好不好不要重疊再做了而且破壞了 嚴重破壞了這個財政紀律 謝謝那個 劉部長 那個現在這樣子齁現在就是國民黨團體一個就是改為凍結20%然後黃國昌總召也同意那現在就是改凍結114年度老屋修繕20%大概在10億新台幣左右那剩下這個也"},{"start":5333.643,"end":5358.297,"text":"如果有需要的話咧 就是用書面報告動之後 使得同意使用還是要專案報告書面報告 剛講的那些點都要進來喔不要急嘛 要回到公布預算好不好 不要 我先試試看把兩個總召的想法先跟部長交換一下意見謝謝那請問一下劉部長 您可以表達意見謝謝院長 我還是再重複講一下第一個 這些都是給各縣市地方政府"},{"start":5359.338,"end":5382.217,"text":"那還有就是說如果能夠改成書面意見因為我剛有特別提到長照3.0是衛福部那衛福部如果他們要到內政委員會來報告我們意見可是在裡面有些條件包括我所說的我們的困難點是在於法律上的適用以及金融權力的變換那這個部分我們會再明說讓他怎麼樣更smooth可以去推廣給地方政府"},{"start":5382.717,"end":5395.531,"text":"那如果說幾個黨團都同意凍結這樣子的數目字那個也就是十億左右我們當然是遵照辦理但我們希望改成書面意見因為專案報告的部分我已經講了 剛才講了就是用書面報告之後使得凍資116年度好不好如果這樣子的話"},{"start":5402.488,"end":5429.288,"text":"那第五案 各黨團幹部所聽下我們就改為凍結116年度老屋修產20% 10億元然後呢 另外提出書面報告經過同 書面報告之後同意並經同意後 使得凍值各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見如果沒有意見報告 報告院長 書面報告要經同書面報告就可以了 好不好"},{"start":5432.304,"end":5435.491,"text":"可以啦黃總召請剛剛院長出來試圖綜合意見其實我們本來是希望要求專案報告"},{"start":5442.182,"end":5468.79,"text":"但是院長都已經說話了所以我剛剛並沒有打斷院長的說話但是書面報告我們可以接受但是要先同意那否則的話送書面報告來那書面報告拿一張紙他有沒有回答問題是不是解決所有委員的疑慮圖據形式啦所以剛剛院長的折衷方案書面報告我們可以接受但是必須要先同意好 謝謝黃組長補充意見那劉部長這邊有一點小修正就是"},{"start":5469.468,"end":5493.964,"text":"那20%之後要經過書面報告 經同意之後使得凍資這要特別跟內政部交換一下意見好 如果各位沒有意見的話我們第五案就這樣修正通過好 第六案改為主決議各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有沒有意見我們通過第七案修正通過第七案主決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有"},{"start":5496.229,"end":5509.841,"text":"柯文哲你慢一點嘛 還沒講就慢一點我讓其他黨團跟他們消化一下嘛好不好好 有沒有意見沒有意見 主席可以通過第八案我們緊急救災這個台灣民眾黨提出的凍結1820萬那個內政部請說明"},{"start":5516.475,"end":5540.228,"text":"謝謝有關台灣民眾黨的立院黨團所提的這個部分那我可以先從前面再講一下第一個這些防救災的緊急衛生物資整備呢也就是我們現在的防災協作中心基本上就是鄉鎮村里公所裡面他們所要配備大概是為了天然災害裡面所準備的部分那放在特別預算裡面當然跟我們現在的這個國安任性有相關"},{"start":5541.429,"end":5562.527,"text":"所以如果刪掉1800萬的話對不起 凍結1800多萬的話我們在緊急衛生設備上面大概就會往下縮減這是一個部分再來一個就是說在裡面的民眾黨團有特別提到說未來有些維修的部分第一個先跟大家報告"},{"start":5563.228,"end":5582.626,"text":"因為我們現在要支援給縣市地方尤其是公所等等這些部分大概368個鄉鎮公所我們都去拜訪過了他們大概知道都是要放在什麼地方然後要配備什麼樣子的發電機或者是緊急用的這個通訊設備那如果因為這些都有些都是消耗品"},{"start":5583.447,"end":5604.527,"text":"那既然是消耗品的話過了三年的保固期間的話其實應該是在下一輪那下一輪的部分我們會放在我們自己這個災防辦裡面呢也就是我們的這個消防署裡面會再繼續往下補助大概就是消耗品的關係而不是因為沒有沒有大到或是複雜到需要再做維修的這個部分這是第一個"},{"start":5605.208,"end":5620.895,"text":"那再來就是368個防災協作中心目前以我們在年度預算不是這個特別預算年度預算裡面我們會分大大的防災協作中心跟小的防災協作中心如果是大的防災協作中心的話我們會補助他們50萬元"},{"start":5622.156,"end":5637.392,"text":"那不在這個預算裡面那小的防災協作中心會補助他們20萬元對於譬如說要有這個物資整備上面要有倉儲或是其他這個緊急電源或是水啊等等這些會放在我們的公務預算裡面做支出以上報告請黃總大請"},{"start":5642.327,"end":5656.848,"text":"黃主席 對不起 我打個岔麻煩後面的工作夥伴各位 大家都同仁能不能把那個錄清一下好不好我們會場有點凌亂請大家 不是內政部的請離席好不好好 拜託一下會場真的有點凌亂 不好意思 黃主席請"},{"start":5659.376,"end":5681.544,"text":"因為剛剛內政部劉部長針對這個提案所為的回應也好說明也好他沒有針對這個提案的全貌做完全的說明我怕沒有看到提案單的人會誤會如同什麼要補助給這些村里中心補助給他們的經費會縮水因為這個凍結所以就會縮水"},{"start":5685.005,"end":5699.313,"text":"會產生這樣子的誤會所以我必須因為有很多人可能看直播嘛但他沒看到提案單嘛在這個向下總共編列了15億8500萬15億8500萬15億8500萬裡面我們只要求凍結1800萬只要求凍結1800萬"},{"start":5713.277,"end":5727.35,"text":"那為什麼是凍結1800萬因為這1800萬是拿來做行政作業的相關的行政作業它不是針對補助本身有任何的刪減或者是凍結我再強調一次15億8500萬沒有刪一塊錢"},{"start":5733.686,"end":5757.976,"text":"第二個我們凍結的是1800萬也沒有凍結到補助的部分而是相關行政作業的部分那為什麼凍結相關行政作業的部分就是從這幾次的災難裡面對於各個村裡他們的補助在系統上面怎麼樣真的能夠到位因為過去"},{"start":5759.622,"end":5771.326,"text":"我相信這些防災的經費這些給村里補助的經費過去其實都有變但我們看到實際上面的實踐會發現說為什麼跟我們的認知差距這麼遠錢灑下去了怎麼實際上面看到的狀況是這個樣子"},{"start":5779.693,"end":5797.023,"text":"我們很關心我相信很多基層的民眾也很關心但我們也了解這個救災上面村里需要的所以我們希望能夠針對這件事情在15億8500萬裡面針對行政作業的部分凍結了1800多萬拜託 懇請請我們的內政部來做一個專案報告讓所有的委員知道"},{"start":5807.78,"end":5820.414,"text":"為什麼會出現這樣子的落差我們錢撒下去是不是有符合村里他們真正實際上面第一線的需求我覺得這個提案非常的合理而且非常的卑微"},{"start":5822.79,"end":5839.981,"text":"黃總召所提的這個部長也可以思考一下中委麻煩掌握一下時間好不好因為我們還有100多個案請我簡單說因為這個提案我有在委員會審查的時候提出了主決議那這個主決議內容跟我們民眾黨的提案內容的一個思維的邏輯是一樣的"},{"start":5841.542,"end":5845.544,"text":"但是我在這裡要提醒一下因為這所謂的1820萬跟所謂的15億8520萬它的關聯性是什麼也就是說這一個1820萬的事務費它就是要做剛剛民眾黨所提的這些事情我們現在看到的這些譬如說村里辦公室 結構是會有補強是不是可以放這些裝備"},{"start":5866.195,"end":5880.835,"text":"那我這裡呢也都很清楚的去看到他整個15億的經費裡面他的確是針對全國上百個這樣的防災協作點他是要把這些裝備呢要撒下去的那當時呢本席有建議說是不是"},{"start":5881.696,"end":5888.758,"text":"但是我的方向剛好相反我覺得並不是說把各地方的需求調查好透過行政會調查好之後呢我們就進行採購然後你就灑下去而是要想到說這裡面有些是各裝有些是團體裝備比如說發電機不可能放在村長家裡譬如說緊急照明燈"},{"start":5899.662,"end":5923.458,"text":"譬如說一些青蛙衣像這些在防災可能用到的所謂的電動鏈具那這些設備有時候不是適合放在村裡當中而是適合在災前譬如說颱風警報發布後由協作廠商將這些保管的物資發放上去這些設備發放上去如果沒有用到或用了之後收回來繼續保養"},{"start":5924.679,"end":5927.564,"text":"不然的話有些裝備交到這協作點它沒有辦法維護保養它是很快就壞掉的因此在這樣的情況之下我反而認為這1820萬要趕緊的去把這樣的一個"},{"start":5939.483,"end":5944.385,"text":"一個分配收回的機制把它建立起來所以是不是請我們的民眾黨的同仁可以支持說這個案子我們要求內政部做怎麼樣內容的強化而不是你把它凍結了三個月它不能凍以至於後面15億的設備裝備沒辦法採購我們今年已經到10月了我們很希望這在明年來之前我們各地的村裡房債協作點可以趕快的拿到裝備以上"},{"start":5964.454,"end":5990.949,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委那個劉部長您看這個剛剛黃國昌總召跟鍾委員所說是有一點點出入但是以15億8500萬這邊凍結1820萬這個在我知道您有沒有意見請表這樣子好不好我先提就是比較positive的部分第一個就是說如果要把那個1800多萬全部刪除掉的話它整個項目都不見了沒有啊 凍結對不起"},{"start":5992.13,"end":6006.436,"text":"它整個項目就不能用整個項目都不能用所以就是會變成時間上會有遲延這是一個再來就是說我們的消防署的主任秘書他有提到就是有點類似像中委員所因為我們去民進黨團那邊解釋過"},{"start":6008.897,"end":6019.106,"text":"就是前面要有些輔導的措施否則防災協作中心的有一些人他會誤會覺得我錢撥給他他說不定跑去買冷氣買電扇但是我們要的是緊急發電機那怎麼用緊急發電機或是通訊設備像這兩次的天災都有通訊設備上面需要我們幫忙輔導那一般的這個鄉鎮或是村里長的辦公室沒有那麼快可以進入狀況那這些都要有一點點的訓練跟說明跟輔導"},{"start":6036.221,"end":6056.617,"text":"那這些大概就是要靠消防署或者是各地的消防局來協助他們我們主要是放在這個地方所以不是在於錢的多少錢如果跟剛剛那個黃國昌委員所提到的你15億多我只有給你動1800但是我現在講這個整個項目都postpone的話會造成我們有些困擾"},{"start":6057.618,"end":6082.655,"text":"因為明年的汛期幾乎在明的四五月就到來了所以會有這一點點時間差我們並不是要argue說前述的多少或凍結與否以上了解 那個張紀凱 張委員那就針對這個麻煩掌握時間好嗎好 謝謝關鍵是早該做啦是你沒有做好然後這個提案單看提案單好不好你三個月內你就趕快來我跟你講為什麼會提這個案子"},{"start":6083.72,"end":6094.576,"text":"像丹納斯的時候我回去嘉義你知道嗎那個異族鄉的那個緊急安置中心外面在下大雨人家說外面下大雨你家裡面下小雨不是耶外面下大雨它裡面也下大雨地上都是水"},{"start":6095.936,"end":6110.979,"text":"就表示你很多跟鄉鎮市長跟村里長的溝通是不良的就剛國商在講的你錢撒了那麼多年都幾十億幾十萬下去就出了一堆問題嘛所以我們今天要你先凍結這筆錢然後趕快來報告你三個月聽我講趕快三個月內趕快來報告這包括設備跟物資你要去問地方的村里長跟鄉鎮市長真正是了解地方真正解決問題到目前為止到目前為止"},{"start":6125.662,"end":6144.329,"text":"役組的那個緊急安置中心都還沒修好啊好 謝謝 裁判議員請發言好 院長謝謝 剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講的就在這個預算書裡面拜託齊凱委員你看一下這個部分是寫的寫法是說這個錢是為了辦理計畫行政作業"},{"start":6149.431,"end":6168.963,"text":"嚴禮防救災緊急衛生設備項目之規格與標準及審查補助案相關工作也就是如果我們前期這些事情沒有做包含部長剛剛說的再去宣導我們就沒有辦法把地方上的需求透過縣市政府再回報給內政部所以剛剛部長跟您解釋的你先讓我講完"},{"start":6169.944,"end":6184.337,"text":"部長剛跟你解釋的是這個第二個你剛舉嘉義為例那難道我要舉花蓮為例嗎在這一次艷澀湖的狀況裡面我們看到縣市政府不是沒有角色而且這件事情是全台灣22個縣市都是如此可是剛剛在齊凱偉您的發言當中"},{"start":6187.159,"end":6193.963,"text":"不知道你有沒有注意到你刻意忽略了嘉義縣政府難道他們沒有角色嗎難道你要內政部在全台灣的每一個相關的災防所都有內政部自己派科員派組員下去說明嗎不可能嘛如果我們回到地方自治跟中央政府的關係你怎麼會把縣市政府的關係拿掉呢所以你剛剛指責內政部好像忽略了沒有去跟鄉鎮區公所這些里長里長溝通"},{"start":6214.416,"end":6225.526,"text":"這個我認為在地方自治跟中央分工的角度有非常大的問題但是我還是要拜託齊凱委員看一下預算書有說得非常的清楚謝謝院長抱歉陳委員一直在誤解那你怎麼樣我幫嘉義爭取該有的錢利你不幫花你是不是更重要剛剛講的請不要再罵了張齊凱請跟我道歉請不要罵我你剛剛講話沒有插嘴"},{"start":6241.028,"end":6262.002,"text":"為什麼民眾黨提了這個案子我們經過黨團討論就是因為你早該做的事情沒做好嘛所以要由下而上不要每次由上而下撒了錢下去出了一堆問題我們要你解決問題把該做沒有做的或早做你現在做得不好的先動解一部分趕快來把它解釋清楚做得更好這樣提案你們都要扭曲嗎"},{"start":6263.939,"end":6290.547,"text":"如果他們要這樣扭曲我們非常堅持就是照原來的案子 不用再講了重大應援去處理我們幫陳平講話 結果你們一直在扭曲你們要捍衛不是你們要捍衛你們民進黨不是這樣大家看一下主席好不好稍等一下我要請劉部長先講劉部長舉手兩次了部長請表達意見好 謝謝我想各位委員都非常關心這一點我們完全贊同可不可以這樣子第一個就是一千八百"},{"start":6293.428,"end":6316.342,"text":"20萬的部分呢這個經費的凍結我們完全同意但是項目的部分呢請把它刪掉讓我們自行調整好不好就是說包括要做專案報告這個我們也都同意因為我還是強調就是如果你把整個項目都刪掉的話等於是前面沒有人在做其他的這個輔導規格的開設啊等等這些那這個經費都沒有辦法再運用"},{"start":6318.305,"end":6333.22,"text":"可不可以用這樣的方式 或者是比較比較比較籠統一點 不要把整個項目全部都刪掉我就要說 劉部長您的意思是說1820這個數字不變但是希望把項目刪掉 剩下您自己來調整是這個意思嗎 對對對對可不可以用這樣的方式"},{"start":6334.79,"end":6363.769,"text":"不用啦 因為民進黨的黨團一直在當打手你們一直在扭曲我們的提案我們就堅持原來的你們只要對待起人民就好了委員長 我簡單說明一下啦其實喔 剛剛其實劉部長他也同意說凍結了這個預算那只是說因為這個預算是做這個行政作業費前置作業 如果你前置作業沒有讓他做的話等於其實後面都沒辦法做那所以讓你們凍這個1820萬但是不要指定這個項目讓他能夠做好不好"},{"start":6364.409,"end":6386.318,"text":"讓他能夠做下去因為這涉及到各個村裡各個到那個各個鄉鎮市都需要那你如果前面租業費沒有的話那其實後面就沒辦法做了吧那所以能不能就是按照劉部長所建議的我們就凍結這筆預算但是不要指定是這個項目好不好讓大家做個折衝啦那個好 謝謝啊那個現在"},{"start":6389.3,"end":6404.45,"text":"那個中委稍微等一下好不好容我再提醒一下我們有一百多個案子還在等那現在張其凱張委員台灣民眾黨團我特別講現在劉部長提了一個建議就是說1820不變但是不要限制他的項目這樣您看可以不可以 沒關係講"},{"start":6406.271,"end":6431.705,"text":"這個提案單強調就是地方的需求本來要傳給中央中央你本來就是要雙向溝通嘛所以你趕快去由要聽他們的意見然後提出一個好的而且這裡面提的是三個月內你可以盡快提啊結果你們當打手你們還扭曲我們的提案我們站在人民立場我們為什麼要同意呢除非你把事情講清楚沒有我們先堅持大院會去講啦我們堅持原來的提案那個"},{"start":6434.771,"end":6461.925,"text":"該做你為什麼要額外處理呢其實是有機會打成公事但如果各位再讓情緒對立下去又沒有意思所以說我覺得行政內政部講的也非常理性就是民進黨也就不要再接槍了那現在台灣民眾黨團這邊就1820這個數字我們把它凍結那讓這個案子能夠繼續往前推進"},{"start":6464.913,"end":6490.993,"text":"我知道 就1820就第8個案子嘛就凍結1820不要限制他的項目可以還是不可以 請說明這樣可能會影響到那個地方補助那一塊啦我們本來就是為什麼就是不要影響到地方所以才要項目要明確嘛 對不對啊你現在又把它拿掉不就影響到地方嗎影響到你的屏東 影響到你的花蓮"},{"start":6493.953,"end":6501.916,"text":"齊凱偉 你講了半天你還沒有回答可以還是不可以可以 維持我們原來的一案這麼清楚 他們應該保留不是 我怕主席不是 因為齊凱兄有點誤會啦我這樣說明好不好其實齊凱兄他們這個計畫不是今年才做其實在之前他們就有委託平科大我所知道只有屏東"},{"start":6517.481,"end":6538.252,"text":"他們就委託平和大做災防協助中心已經在做宣導了所以我所接觸到的村里長他們就是有接到這樣的一個輔導所以他們才有跟我們反應所以我才很認同你們提案文裡面所說的這些內容包括說這些村里辦公室或者說社區活動中心它不見得適合放這些防災設備所以我才用主決意形方說有些設備不要放在社區活動中心"},{"start":6541.954,"end":6567.656,"text":"是有災來之前才發放所以是支持你的方向那是不是說剛剛那個主席也建議說是不是這個讓因為他們已經是要退一陣子了那如果這個時候呢如果這個前置作業擋住了後面的這些我們村里村長他們所期待的防災協作中心他們要的這些裝備不能及時取得這有點可惜跟遺憾所以我懇請說是不是可以就是用剛剛主席建的方式我們來處理好不好"},{"start":6568.797,"end":6594.799,"text":"嘉賓也認同我們的提案嘛對不對也認同嘛那更重要這件事情本來就要做你說本來就有研究的你就趕快來報告而且為什麼我特別強調不能夠改成把那個行政作業那一塊拿掉啦我們當初為什麼要這樣訂就是怕影響到對地方的補助嘛所以我們非常堅持到此了不要再說了說來說去都是這一套好不好就這樣第八案保留我不再回頭了我們進入第九案主決議內政部請表達意見"},{"start":6597.669,"end":6615.395,"text":"那個羅明財委有沒有意見啊好那這案通過那就謝謝謝謝內政部劉部長跟各位列席的官員謝謝請回 謝謝我們現在休息十分鐘之後開始進行國防部的 謝謝"},{"start":7453.356,"end":7477.882,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝我們現在進入 顧部長 謝謝我們進入國防部我們現在第十案到一百三十二案現在跟黨團幹部報告一下我們馬文君委員要徵提兩個組決議那現在已經發到各位"},{"start":7483.103,"end":7494.669,"text":"這兩個主決議請大家參閱一下馬文靜委員所提出來的請大家參閱一下如果各位同意的話我們就收案好 謝謝我們就收案"},{"start":7510.894,"end":7535.496,"text":"10案我們先保留 回頭我們再來審第10案我們先進入第11案 主決議 沒意見進入提案委員討論之後 建請同意文字修正後通過 好 謝謝修正通過 我們第12案12案進入提案委員討論後 建請同意預算照列好 謝謝同意照列"},{"start":7536.618,"end":7565.438,"text":"我們現在進入第二項國安部所屬第13案請國安部說明經理提案委員討論後 建請同意預算照列同意照列好 同意照列 好 謝謝我們進入第14案 請國安部表達意見是 就這個部分在鋼棚類的部分經理委員討論之後我們並聯席會就是聯席會的第91案的主決議辦理那預算的部分 建請同意照列"},{"start":7568.998,"end":7587.603,"text":"這個有刪喔第十四案第十四案是刪有刪減數沒有嗎沒有沒有那是提案對就是有關鋼棚的工作項目律定個案項目規格及要求據以辦理照因為在我們的這一次任性預算抱歉抱歉"},{"start":7589.784,"end":7606.402,"text":"這一次在我們的任勳預算裡面因為有很多鋼棚的這樣的一個設施可是我們完全看不到它的功能或者它的規格或者它的數量或者它的大小所以這個部分我們可以並這個組決議辦理希望可以確切的提供相關的資訊"},{"start":7608.626,"end":7615.452,"text":"同意改組決議並組決議辦理集會的那個九十一案當時馬委員在聯席會提出來那個九十一案的組決議辦理我們就並聯席會九十一案辦理馬委員這樣沒有意見嗎沒有意見好"},{"start":7628.795,"end":7652.993,"text":"進入第十五案 請公安部表達意見十五案就有關這個工程鋼棚的案件也是一樣的案件或工作項目律定個案項目規格及要求具以辦理遭開標或違反罪也就是一樣連同上案就是並聯席會議的九十一案主決一辦理那建請同意預算照例那十五 十六都是一樣喔同意"},{"start":7654.154,"end":7671.78,"text":"十五 十六案都是併聯議會十六也是如此併九十一案 滿為沒意見好 同意第十七案十六案併也是併聯席會九十一案對第十七案十四 十五 十六的那十七案的話經理天安委員討論 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7672.628,"end":7700.319,"text":"好 同意好 我們預算照例第18案18案同意刪除全數刪除3614萬好 減列3614萬好 我們通過進入第18案第19案19案也同意刪除2000萬好 同意刪除 光復同意刪除通過 第二十案二十案經議提案委員討論 建議同意預算照例"},{"start":7701.42,"end":7721.858,"text":"好 馬委員沒問題 同意照列我們議議20案預算照列 21案21案經議天安委員討論 建請同意預算照列我們預算照列 同意照列 謝謝 22案22案跟前面的14案一樣都改成並聯席會的91案決議辦理 那預算同意照列同意 一樣我們22案並聯席會91案"},{"start":7727.222,"end":7753.504,"text":"二十三案二十三案也是建請同意預算照列同意照列二十四案二十四案也一樣就是併聯席會九十一案主決議辦理預算照列併九十一案聯席會 同意二十五案二十五案同意刪除四千四百八七萬二十五案同意刪除四千四百八七萬通過二十六案"},{"start":7754.584,"end":7759.866,"text":"26案同意刪除1億5706萬26案同意刪除1億5706萬 同意刪除通過 27案同意刪除3500萬 同意刪除3500萬通過 28案"},{"start":7770.461,"end":7792.759,"text":"二十八案經議委員討論或建請同意預算照列二十八案就照列 同意照列好謝謝 二十九案二十九案 建請同意預算照列那麼就剛剛馬委員提出一個新的組決議的部分我們到時候那個組決議我們就按組決議來辦理好的好的 那是在第三十二十一"},{"start":7797.294,"end":7800.656,"text":"100改組決議對 我們改為組決議 好不好好 改為組決議132之1132之1就沒有3也改為組決議好 並131好 並131我們第32"},{"start":7814.051,"end":7832.243,"text":"三十案 建請同意預算照列好 預算照列滿圍好 第三十一案建請同意預算照列滿圍同意照列同意照列第三十二建請同意預算照列同意照列第三十三建請同意預算照列同意照列好 同意照列第三十四"},{"start":7832.711,"end":7856.639,"text":"建請同意預算照列 同意照列 第三十五建請同意預算照列 同意照列 照列 第三十六建請同意預算照列 同意照列 照列 第三十七第三十七建請同意預算照列那一樣就是改組決議就是併那個四個案子是不是第二張因為有兩案嘛"},{"start":7861.76,"end":7877.43,"text":"並議三議嗎沒問題我們就一樣改為主決議嘛這樣就好了好不好毛委員2287495四個案子他就是新增主決議然後同意招列這個部分"},{"start":7878.291,"end":7894.662,"text":"改組決議 同意照列我們等一下回頭到那個組決議的時候我們再探討第38 同意刪除700萬第39 建請同意預算照列第40 建請同意預算照列預算照列第41 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7902.008,"end":7928.355,"text":"同意遭列 同意遭列第四十二建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列第四十三建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列預算遭列第四十四建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列遭列第四十五四十五同意三除一千九百萬同意 四十五案同意三除一千九百萬好 我們進入四十六四十六建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 好 四十六案預算遭列 四十七"},{"start":7929.814,"end":7951.466,"text":"47也是建請同意預算照列那麼鋼紅類的部分並聯繫會91組決議辦理好第47案並聯繫會91組決議來辦理好嗎好謝謝第48建請同意預算照列同意照列好48預算照列 49建請同意預算照列同意照列好預算照列第50建請同意預算照列同意照列好預算照列第51建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7956.269,"end":7982.365,"text":"同意照列 預算照列 五十二五十二 一樣併聯席會九十一組決議辦理 預算照列併聯席會九十一案 同意謝謝預算照列 我們併聯席會九十一案組決議來併案討論 五十三建請同意預算照列好 五十三 預算照列 同意照列五十四 建請同意預算照列五十四 滿委員 同意預算照列 五十五"},{"start":7983.165,"end":8000.159,"text":"55同意刪減1575萬好 55同意刪減1575萬那同意刪減這個數額以外其實我們還有一個就是要刪減那個教練儀館天線基座的整修的部分這個部分也在討論之內好 統一就在這個案裡面嗎對"},{"start":8008.906,"end":8025.707,"text":"那第55萬有指定刪減教練 儀館 天線 基座 整修這個案子已經就這個部分全數刪除了全數刪除了 馬委員好 已經全數刪除了就不需要"},{"start":8026.869,"end":8042.967,"text":"我們就全數刪除50萬 第56依照馬委員的提案因為他是整比大的那個項目就這個部分我們有指定的部分就是那個項目刪減我們進入56建請同意預算照例同意照列57"},{"start":8045.609,"end":8062.717,"text":"建請同意預算照列同意照列58建請同意預算照列同意照列同意照列59建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第60這個建請同意刪除2100萬元"},{"start":8064.762,"end":8085.216,"text":"馬委員這第60案建請刪除2100萬我們同意不過就是我們有特別要求在他應該要怎麼樣去強化因為你四個案子嘛就我們要求的部分下去做一個調整好不好好同意好我們第60案刪減2100萬好第61案建請同意刪除1800萬好刪除1800萬同意第62案"},{"start":8095.75,"end":8116.75,"text":"62案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第63建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第64建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第65建請同意預算照列同意照列第66建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列67建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8117.29,"end":8143.878,"text":"同意照列 預算照列第68 建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第69建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第70建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第71建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第72建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第73建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第74建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8144.218,"end":8168.86,"text":"同意遭列 預算遭列 第75建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第76建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第77建請同意預算遭列同意遭列我們三個人這樣一搭一唱 蠻順暢的大家都沒意見 第78建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第79建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第80"},{"start":8170.75,"end":8187.563,"text":"80 一樣預算照列並聯繫會議91案的主決議辦理好 滿委員好 同意並預算就照列了好 並主決議第81建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 第8282 同意刪除1779萬元同意刪除1779萬元 第83"},{"start":8194.996,"end":8209.602,"text":"第83這個一樣建請同意預算照略那就並同新增的主決議的部分就並新增的主決議預算照略好 同意好 沒問題83並新增主決議好 第84"},{"start":8210.866,"end":8237.918,"text":"是一樣 建請同意預算照列那鋼棚類的部分並聯席會91的組決議辦理好的 媽媽有沒有意見沒問題 預算照列我們並91聯席會的會議來討論 第8585建請同意預算照列 同意照列好 預算照列 第86建請同意預算照列 同意照列預算照列87建請同意預算照列 同意照列預算照列88"},{"start":8238.783,"end":8263.685,"text":"建請同意預算照列 同意照列 預算照列八十九建請同意預算照列 同意照列 預算照列八 九十建請同意預算照列 同意照列 第九十一建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列 九十二同意刪除三千萬元同意 好 第九十二案同業減列三千萬元 計九三"},{"start":8265.552,"end":8280.251,"text":"93 建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第94建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第95建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第9696 同意就同意刪除2000萬元"},{"start":8282.277,"end":8286.999,"text":"同意好 第96案預算簡列業務費2000萬元 第9797 一樣 併聯席會91組決議辦理預算照列同意 併聯席會91案好 第98同意刪除9000萬元"},{"start":8300.478,"end":8325.389,"text":"因為我們有指定刪減的項目就是同意一案刪減九千萬我們同意啦我們第九十八案檢列業務費九千萬元九十九建請同意預算照列預算照列 同意照列好 九十九案預算照列一百案一百案同意委員提案刪除一億兩千五百九十六萬元我們"},{"start":8327.011,"end":8353.32,"text":"第100案 檢列業務費1億2461萬 設備費135萬同意 檢列那馬委員 檢列同意好 刪除了 第101案101案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 102102案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 第103同意刪除4千萬元"},{"start":8354.434,"end":8379.535,"text":"同意好 我們103案檢列業務費4千萬元 104104 建請同意預算照列那無人機訊廠的這就剛剛無人機訊廠的這幾個案子就是依照新增的主決議文辦理好的 我們預算照列然後無人機這一部分就是照主決議好不好 同意好 新增的主決議好 104案"},{"start":8381.397,"end":8386.421,"text":"那105案 統一3減200萬105案減列200萬元106 建請統一預算照列統一照列107案 統一3除3億2202萬6千元"},{"start":8408.67,"end":8412.934,"text":"馬委員同意就是我們簡列設備及投資3億2202萬6千元好108108件請同意預算照列同意照列好108預算照列109同意刪除9527萬"},{"start":8427.935,"end":8431.997,"text":"同意好109案檢列業務費9527萬110同意3除4800萬同意好110案檢列業務費4800萬111同意3除1億9264萬同意好檢列1億20001億90001百111"},{"start":8455.044,"end":8458.905,"text":"檢列業務費8,558萬不是 1億9,264萬還有設備投資1億0706萬合起來是就全部合起來是您剛剛講的說1億9,264萬馬洪源對 同意好的 我們就檢列好 112"},{"start":8477.833,"end":8485.918,"text":"112 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 113113 就同意刪除610萬同意113 減列610萬好 114114 是併同115 同意刪除4770萬5000元"},{"start":8502.642,"end":8513.231,"text":"就兩個案就114是減列業務費7426部長講的數字是哪個數字因為1415合併114跟15合併就兩個案就刪除減列4770萬5000元那部長的意思是說114跟115本來我們這邊減列合起來9000多我們同意減4000"},{"start":8531.44,"end":8551.548,"text":"四千七百萬四千七百七十萬四千七百七十萬五千麻煩這裏有沒有意見 同意好 第一百一十一百一十五我們簡列四千七七零四千七百七十萬五千五千元稍微等一下"},{"start":8562.323,"end":8585.963,"text":"更正一下113案我們再重新它是分為業務費跟設備及投資那39萬是業務費571萬是設備以及投資通通簡列好 更正一下加起來610萬我們現在進入116案116案建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列117117同意3.6600萬"},{"start":8592.455,"end":8595.357,"text":"同意117案檢列設備及投資6千萬元6千6百萬元跟證6千6百萬元118118就庫儲的部分是凍結1億以順便報告後記得凍值"},{"start":8619.98,"end":8644.294,"text":"不急不急慢慢來因為案子太多到118部長慢慢來不急您再看一下就庫儲的部分庫儲的部分鋼棚的部分鋼棚啊鋼棚鋼棚的部分部長您那邊修正完畢了嗎那文字好這邊翁曉琳委員所提案的一個修正文字不要急先請部長那邊您那邊是主決議還是"},{"start":8652.205,"end":8662.19,"text":"119 418是118減列38億 翁曉琳委員所提的這個你那邊文字出來了嗎如果你沒有 你先準備一下 我請翁曉琳委員發言好嗎好 翁委員請發言"},{"start":8666.009,"end":8677.965,"text":"這對國防部的這個案子我基本上是跟國防部應該是次長那邊討論過了之後我基本上仍然是不同意戰備飲用水所以就是三減戰備飲用水7億至於就說他們要蓋的軍車"},{"start":8683.277,"end":8707.682,"text":"的鋼棚就是放軍車的鋼棚那我這裡是免於同意但是就凍結一役然後請他們要就軍用鋼棚規劃及建制的事項提出書面報告然後並且在每個會期這個要提供相關的執行進度與成果報告我在講念一次"},{"start":8708.982,"end":8718.126,"text":"就是山檢 原山檢戰備用水7億元凍結軍車及用場整修1億元提供書面報告後對不起"},{"start":8725.982,"end":8743.155,"text":"凍結軍車及用場整修1億元並就軍用鋼棚規劃及建置提供書面報告使得凍支並與美會期要提供執行進度與成果報告"},{"start":8746.528,"end":8772.1,"text":"跟主席報告一下就是說就那個軍用的鋼銅的部分我們同意剛剛翁委員提出的文字但就那個水的部分因為翁委員是提議三減全部那119案那個馬委員的也有一樣的提案那我們是建請同意修三減4億元"},{"start":8775.802,"end":8794.878,"text":"那國安部提出來對於118案與119案佔備飲用水7億國安部同意咧現在反正因為你們有好幾個案嘛我們現在就是折衷就是說3減4億元那馬委員 廷安委員有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":8797.236,"end":8819.67,"text":"就是7元3.4億保留3億有沒有意見 請因為這個部分戰備用水我們還是同意有3億元讓國防部可以去支用可是他不可以買這麼貴的水然後這個戰備用水希望其實應該要分布讓我們所有國軍在整個考量戰備上面的一個使用這個部分我們同意3.4億"},{"start":8821.031,"end":8838.865,"text":"馬委員同意三減四益馬委員有另外提出一個新增的主決我們就按照主決好的 那翁委員請表達意見好 那我也就是同意前面兩位委員的就三減四益我們第118案跟119案我們就是一零月水123"},{"start":8842.342,"end":8868.442,"text":"飲用水 那國安部的意思是同意3.4億元剩下來保留那各位黨團幹部有沒有保管 張委員請我們提的是123案啦因為我們之前去 如果用原來這個國安部的這個長效飲用水去算一瓶水大概要120塊啦那後來討論了嘛 我們是同意說3 2億啦不過現在部長既然已經佔成3 4億 我們也同意"},{"start":8869.79,"end":8875.256,"text":"那就是同意部長的意見就對了吧好 那118 119 123引用稅我們保留3億元嗎凍結4億 減列4億元 這樣就好了對 減列4億"},{"start":8885.356,"end":8907.277,"text":"沒有 那個還有一個軍車集中廠同意凍結一億嘛凍結一億新台幣好不好對 就是凍結一億提出書面報告然後並以每會期提供執行進度與成果報告對 完全不 國安部完全同意嘛歐盟也沒有意見好 謝謝不好意思 再補充一下是書面報告就是要經同意後使得凍支沒有 沒有吧"},{"start":8907.797,"end":8931.436,"text":"沒有啦 沒有啦 就順便報告好 那就順便報告吧 使得公知然後在下面會議要提供相關的進度喔 我這邊也有寫好的好的 翁委員如果要相關資料麻煩請國防部配合 謝謝我們現在進入120案120案 建請同意預算照列好 請問提案的馬委員 請表達意見建議同意照列好 同意照列 121案"},{"start":8933.052,"end":8962.439,"text":"一百二十一萬民眾黨提案是因為發現那個週一的那個價格太讓人家你先不要急現在國安部表還如果他同意你的條件你就不用發言了因為就這個部分跟民眾黨團報告就是說這個案子是同這個一百一十四跟一百一十五案那這個案子在剛剛討論是已經同意三減四千七百七十萬五千元了"},{"start":8965.3,"end":8975.963,"text":"是不是能夠就因為刪減的數目要比這個民眾黨提出的要多好 現在張委員請教一下國防部表達我們在114案已經刪減了4000多萬已經大於您所提的這個檢列500萬您表達一些請"},{"start":8982.677,"end":8992.202,"text":"我先提醒國防部我們是支持這個國防的可是你看看喔剛剛那個水一瓶平均下來120塊太高了這邊桌子 這邊桌子這邊桌子換算以後一組5000 5000多塊錢椅子一張8000多塊錢"},{"start":9003.175,"end":9028.204,"text":"我是同意就是說我們用剛剛那個幅度去刪減不過要提醒國防部啦每一分錢都是人民的民脂民膏好不好不要從粥食 椅子然後到飲用水都這樣而且這個會排擠到其他的預算我們提醒第一個不要排擠其他預算好的 謝謝張委員的提醒非常寶貴的提醒 謝謝我們進入121案我們就這邊就不再處理了好嗎 好"},{"start":9034.093,"end":9051.255,"text":"那進入122案因為122案我們前面剛剛所討論的都是這個重要防護設施改善這個部分那麼剛剛前面都已經有同意刪減的數字了"},{"start":9052.556,"end":9073.106,"text":"對 那就這個部分是不是能夠麻煩民眾黨團這個部分能夠並同前面因為它這個是一個很大的一個包裹所以我們前面已經都提了我們再提醒兩件事第一個金額就像部長剛剛講非常的大"},{"start":9073.866,"end":9078.13,"text":"然後你年度預算裡面這個金額已經相關的預算已經這麼多了結果你現在又提了一個這麼400多億出來然後又是要密集去發包老實講現在國內有很多切工你現在一下要這麼多錢你會不會消化不了所以我們提醒先凍結30%你們提個專案報告看怎麼樣可以如期去凍工如期去完工我們再把這筆錢再放行好不好要不然你現在要這麼多錢老實講你也執行不了了"},{"start":9100.075,"end":9127.367,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下因為另外那個馬委員有提了一個主決議文就是是主決議嘛就是說這個各單位各單位所割開各子項目之預算執行那麼環境開標程序結標是標於結款除了工程物調管人工及原物料上場所需外計劃執行完畢後如果有剩餘的話就繳回國庫"},{"start":9128.507,"end":9150.603,"text":"那是不是我們就可以按照這樣子的主決於文來辦理就可以了我就是倒狗為鷹的嘛你應該是把它做好才要預算就不是你現在執行完了以後有問題又回繳那就回到我剛剛講的問題啦你就是變成會排擠到其他的預算嘛而且你又消化不了你應該是來報告說你有什麼方法確實可以確實的執行發包跟完工都可以我們再把錢給你嘛"},{"start":9151.624,"end":9157.174,"text":"對不對要倒狗為營反而這樣反而不好好不好如果要全部的案要再凍結我們沒辦法執行"},{"start":9159.909,"end":9188.483,"text":"不是 先凍結百分之三十你三個月內就來報告嘛同意以後就給你啦這個還是 凍結為什麼要有這個凍結就是要你去執行不要變成你剛剛部長你剛剛講的你後來消化不良然後這樣也延誤你自己的工程你再回過頭再去把錢繳回國庫這樣不對啦各位委員報告因為我們前面都已經有三減的金額了那如果要再凍結那我想我不曉得這兩個案要評統怎麼處理所以就三減的部分是不是前面都已經討論了那就這個部分我們就按照這個"},{"start":9190.709,"end":9194.144,"text":"組結一文的提案我們會努力來辦理這樣子好不好"},{"start":9199.484,"end":9226.315,"text":"齊凱是不是我們你這邊也用提案齁黨團這邊提說病檢列案這樣子喔 那個張齊凱委員是這樣前面113案檢列4千多萬所以就4千7百多萬所以說您後面還有馬委員 翁委員所講的這幾樣國安部這邊是大於這個數字的那所以說您如果能接受我們就要通過因為前面已經三檢我們動10%好不好本來動30動10%就好了那你這樣執行上沒有問題你三個月內趕快來報告完就給你"},{"start":9227.115,"end":9244.134,"text":"不是你我剛講過了很重要為什麼要凍結就是不要弄到後來你是像部長講的你消化不良這樣對你不好然後才會回來你要排擠到其他的預算嘛我們有很多預算很多的重要的事情要做啊那你趕快來報告只有凍死我們本來30先下降凍死趴可是在三個月內趕快來把它"},{"start":9245.555,"end":9257.981,"text":"你不要倒果為因來 只要部長你報告的是合理的真的可以達成你要這個預算的這個目的對不對那我們就趕快去解凍好不好122案張祺凱委員所提出來的就是凍結改為10%"},{"start":9261.002,"end":9281.492,"text":"然後提出書面報告之後使的動資請問國防部有沒有意見這個現在的凍結數到底是以什麼的凍結數來是以122案就是強化國土防衛能量那個因為它這個是一個很大項叫做中藥防護設施改善這樣大項那前面都已經有刪減了"},{"start":9283.055,"end":9303.064,"text":"那這個部長你意思是刪減那個要扣掉可以啦你420億去刪那個4000多刪完以後的10%現在怎麼會太多本來是38沒有 最重要是每一分錢都是民脂民膏更重要的就是剛剛講的你只要是合理的你可以切實可以執行進度的嘛要不然為什麼要省預算"},{"start":9305.006,"end":9313.8,"text":"立法委員就代表人民要看清每一分錢而且更重要你的工期你是提出預算是確實可以執行的嘛要如期完成啊不要像部長剛剛講的執行不完我才繳回來"},{"start":9317.443,"end":9343.525,"text":"部長 我跟你講啦你三個月來你三天提出真正可以達到你這個目標的到時候就放行可是你又拿出來的東西連民眾都不同意那立法院怎麼可能放行是不是這樣張委員這樣子好了這有一點困難因為這邊刪減數字太多到現在沒有辦法你要不然就一個定額例如我先凍結五一新台幣後面報告之後再凍資這樣國防部就很清楚否則他 現在他是會混亂"},{"start":9344.306,"end":9349.488,"text":"一個個量下來 例如凍結3億那5億啦 凍結5億之後經過書面報告之後 使得凍資這樣的話國防部很清楚 大家也都清楚國防部長應該凍結5億 這345億之前前面三四千多萬 您看能不能這就同意凍結5億經書面報告後 使得凍資可以"},{"start":9366.994,"end":9380.184,"text":"好 謝謝因為這樣的話大家腦袋都會清楚 OK第112項我們就凍結五億元新台幣經書面報告之後使得凍資好 我們現在123已經處理過我們進入124案124案因為那個前面的110"},{"start":9388.94,"end":9407.68,"text":"前面的120應該是120已經處理了然後18 119也都有處理了是不是就可以不要再處理因為剛剛也同意凍結對 好好123那個張委員張啟凱委員那就是前面我們凍結5億了嘛跟這個都有關我們就不再處理好嗎"},{"start":9409.838,"end":9423.611,"text":"好謝謝我們進入125案直通作業這個檢列優惠費2億請這個賴委員賴世保委員提的刪除2億這個部分因為我們在126案到131案"},{"start":9431.206,"end":9450.485,"text":"因為賴委員提的也是一個大項就是全部的資通作業環境及設備提升案那麼在1256案到131案所簡列的數字要大於這個2億是不是就並同那個後面就處理了大包小"},{"start":9451.145,"end":9478.475,"text":"顧部長的意思非常清楚1 2 5 1 2 6 1 2 71 2 8 1 2 9 1 3 0 1 3 1就以賴氏堡委員為基礎所謂檢列業務費兩億元如果可以兩億元不處理然後另外每個案子再按照馬委員的提案處理這樣會不會比較清楚一點好 那併在馬委員的後面來一併處理可以嗎好 沒有問題"},{"start":9481.448,"end":9488.916,"text":"我們1.25就不再處理了1.26就是建請同意我們併1.26跟1.29三個案子3減12億元"},{"start":9495.916,"end":9500.378,"text":"好 126 127 128 129沒有 126跟129126 129就兩個案3減12億元並案3減12億元那馬委員有沒有包括意見"},{"start":9511.684,"end":9531.309,"text":"同意好各位黨團幹部我們126案跟129案兩案減列12億元好好現在繼續127127案建請同意預算照列同意照列同意照列128建請同意預算照列同意照列好同意照列130同意3減20億元"},{"start":9534.471,"end":9545.074,"text":"剪裂21 馬委員同意剪裂21 130剪裂20億元好 進入131 建請同意預算照列同意照列131 132132這個已經跟蘇清泉委員討論同意下修凍結數是3000萬元然後書面報告後是個凍值"},{"start":9558.868,"end":9582.833,"text":"好 公安部跟提案書欽勸委員已經達成共識 凍結三千萬元於書面報告之後 使得凍資馬委員有沒有寶貴意見好 沒關係 你是召集委員 還是要問一下問習慣了好 沒意見 好 同意凍結三千萬元 好 謝謝加上書面報告好 謝謝"},{"start":9586.818,"end":9614.407,"text":"好 對不起 對不起 國安部這邊我們現在還有13加剛才修建的132之1跟132之2對 131之1跟13現在列為131之1 132之2兩個主決問都同意好 我們寫真列的131之1 132之2國安部這邊全部同意各位黨黨幹部沒有其他意見好 那麼我們現在要回到剛才一開始的第十案"},{"start":9618.481,"end":9638.636,"text":"呃 實案是不是建請同意預算照列好 第十案我們剛才都已經處理完畢該刪減 該凍結的我們第十案我們是不是建議我們就不再處理了好 同意照列好 同意照列那謝謝國防部 列席官員謝謝大家好 謝謝啊 好我們現在請財政部"},{"start":9709.81,"end":9725.614,"text":"好 謝謝財政部莊部長 各位財政部的官員我們現在進入 各位黨團幹部我們進入財政部主管國庫署133案現在已經達成共識改為主提案委員改成主決議請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見請部長請說明"},{"start":9729.143,"end":9749.741,"text":"謝謝 跟委員溝通後 同意改為主決議然後不凍結 然後改題書面報告好 謝謝 各位黨團跟媒體好 謝謝我們一三 謝謝財政部 謝謝部長 請回來 開心啊謝謝 謝謝 好好好謝謝啊 好好好我們進入第四案 教育部主管"},{"start":9759.845,"end":9766.131,"text":"謝謝 麻煩請教育部正部長請說明我們134沒有關係 請部長口頭說明一下謝謝主席 在134案我們歐委員"},{"start":9775.632,"end":9789.817,"text":"先說明 你說了嗎翁委員這個改動決五議員書面向立法院財政及相關委員會提出書面報告謝政部長說明 麻煩請翁委員請說明"},{"start":9790.802,"end":9806.126,"text":"是我想在這個案子上面我當時的是因為搭配了一個主決議那在這個主決議裡面我先講就是為什麼我這是要刪要刪減同時凍結教育部的所提出來的案子因為他們在針對"},{"start":9809.298,"end":9825.027,"text":"特別預算案裡面所補助的項目基本上這應該是在各個年度預算裡面所編列的即可可是他們這次又編列了這個項目是要來作為去補助各大專運銷的什麼"},{"start":9828.349,"end":9854.87,"text":"這個叫什麼雜資學雜費並沒有說特別要去幫助因為美國關稅政策受影響的家庭經濟弱勢的學生那麼所以我們當時的意思跟教育部那裡談的就是說我同意可以這個就是用凍結而不用刪減的方式但是在做成主決議的時候呢必須要將大部分的經費20%的經費要"},{"start":9857.192,"end":9873.217,"text":"補助給那些受經濟衝擊學生的就學負擔那麼可是現在就是教育部不同意我的主決議的內容所以我在這裡我就撤回我之前所說的書面所講的凍結5億那麼就是簡列刪除預算40億這可以可是就是凍結的話我還是要維持原來的30%"},{"start":9888.682,"end":9891.565,"text":"這邊 翁委員你們這邊 是 所簽的"},{"start":9899.368,"end":9928.312,"text":"簡列41這個要撤回跟委員報告我想在137案的一個主決議委員的這一個對經濟弱勢這一個學生因為關稅所造成的我們承諾絕對會全部的這一個給予這個生活的一個輔助我想這個是沒有問題的那另外委員在第三段裡面的說把這一個各補助各項的計畫培訓計畫改為計畫改為課程這我們也配合辦理"},{"start":9928.959,"end":9957.883,"text":"那有關獎學金博士班的獎學金這個部分是不是能夠著以著以就是說我們名列說不得低於8也就是說10%用來鼓勵我們這個博士班的獎學金我想委員的對這個博士生還有經濟弱勢這本來都是我們在既定我們的一個規劃裡邊那是不是能夠能夠同意有這樣的一些這一個文字上的一些修正"},{"start":9961.856,"end":9985.625,"text":"我想在這個部分因為當時的主決議裡面的三個大類第一個就是說希望能夠將這個提升大專校園校務經營的這個費用呢提撥至少不可以低於20%是要去資助那些家庭經濟弱勢的學生而且給予獎學金可是這個部分好像部長這裡不同意"},{"start":9986.645,"end":10007.077,"text":"跟委員報告可能訊息在傳遞上有一些落差我們原來因為以教育部來講我們現在手上的這個經濟弱勢的有大概11%那也就是說我們在這個11%裡面特別譬如說台城清教在經濟弱勢他事實上是沒有那麼多的這個學生的比較是屬於"},{"start":10008.678,"end":10034.467,"text":"中後段班的這些學校他反而是經濟弱勢的學生是比較多的所以我們是不是在一個總體整體來看當時才會想說是不是跟委員做這樣一個建議我們overall來看是大概有11%如果可以來講就不得低於10%這一個東西在整個執行上來講可能相對的是一個比較合理的大概做這樣的一個以上的補充說明"},{"start":10035.346,"end":10064.227,"text":"我想在這邊跟部長說明因為現在我們講的親韓學生他的條件基本上是相對嚴格的所以這次受到關稅衝擊的這些企業勞工們的經濟可能會影響他們的家庭經濟我認為條件要放寬如果條件放寬的話那當然可以申請的學生比例就會增加可是因為我們現在如果沒有壓個比例的話那我擔心最後這些錢全部都拿去補助給各大專院校的一般的校務費用"},{"start":10065.027,"end":10093.646,"text":"所以我本席认为说这样的比例基本上并不是一个很过分的我并没有说50%全部都要去补助给这些经济弱势的学生对那你现在是从11%然后提拨到20%本席是认为这是合理的那另外就是说在补助给高等教育人才永续发展促进计划因为你们这笔80亿的钱主要都是要给聘老师"},{"start":10094.546,"end":10120.236,"text":"平體老師 可是本來的用意特別預算的這個項目的用意是要去培養學生跟委員報告如果我們沒有優秀的師資我們怎麼能夠確保我們有一個對學生能夠提供相對高的一個品質我也跟委員報告因應這樣一個關稅事實上日本提出了一千億元的這樣的一個人才延攬"},{"start":10121.036,"end":10144.089,"text":"日幣1000億元的日幣那歐盟也提供了這個5億元的這一個人才延攬我想在這個部分我們總是希望對大學所可能增加儀器設備的一些這個支出跟人才培育上的一些因為產業上我們怎麼樣來這個協助大學並不是教育部要來拿這些錢"},{"start":10145.55,"end":10171.02,"text":"來教育部來使用而是基本上都是用來支持大學的發展那當然我們也可以了解委員對學生因為衝擊所帶來的這個生活上的一些需要的輔助以及博士生的一些獎學金如果委員堅持我當然我們就尊重配合辦理因為基本上我們都希望說能夠給高等教育有一個更好的一些支持的力量以上謝謝部長我在這裡我堅持謝謝"},{"start":10172.025,"end":10192.499,"text":"那個這樣子我們可能顯然要先處理137這個組決議之後再回過頭來這樣的話比較會比較順一點好不好137這個組決議我們先來處理翁委員所提的那現在張委員跟鍾委員想要發言是我們等137處理完畢之後還現在就要發言"},{"start":10194.974,"end":10198.801,"text":"因為剛剛部長跟翁委員都已經提到內容都是跟我們的135有關的135是特別針對"},{"start":10203.285,"end":10228.579,"text":"不是 我說剛剛他們兩個在講高等教育人才他們在講134都已經講到135這個案子我們是特別針對大專院校的這個精進產學合作計畫教學這一塊那部長有來溝通幾次我們肯定你的這個努力不過我現在提醒的就是我們去對照發現這次這個預算科目跟整個項目跟我們的年度預算重疊性太高例如說產學合作"},{"start":10229.738,"end":10255.129,"text":"培育研究經營計畫還有博士級研究人才培訓計畫跟年度預算都是一樣的所以我們就先凍結四億然後請來報告報告兩個重點一個就是你這個特別預算跟平常的年度預算常態有什麼差別還有你預期的這個結果計畫有什麼效果我們再來放行這個我們還沒處理到那裡可是他們兩個都已經講了你聽清楚我講話嘛"},{"start":10256.149,"end":10270.4,"text":"我們現在先把137組決議處理完再回到134然後再接下來關切的135好不好拜託這個軸線不要偏好不好總委拜託時間掌握一下我們現在看的是137案"},{"start":10272.381,"end":10289.832,"text":"那麼在這個組決議當中因為對於預算的金額都支持但是資用的結構卻有一些要求那我們可以理解其實剛剛歐委員提到的對於弱勢學生的體會跟支持我們是非常的認同"},{"start":10290.672,"end":10313.601,"text":"那至於說這個比例要多少因為剛剛的教育部說目前他們調查是11%那翁委員是覺得說好像他原來的提案是20%我覺得這裡有斟酌的空間那我是不是做一個建議因為後面包括第三項最後面一句話說急補助各項培訓機關剛剛教育部部長意思是說跟前面的這些內容是有些重複"},{"start":10314.321,"end":10332.932,"text":"那另外的第四項呢講注金額比例不得低於計劃金額的30%那我是想這樣好不好是不是可以請院長主席來讓我們在場的委員思考一下是不是對於弱勢學生的部分我們請教育部啊力道大一點來支持那至於呢其他的培訓"},{"start":10333.972,"end":10355.938,"text":"補助及各項培訓計畫或是說不得地域計畫的30%的部分呢是不是建請我們提案委員 翁委員這邊可以考量到教育部我們目前的有限資源有的要放在師資 有的放在其他部分那是不是我們就請他集中在照顧弱勢學生的部分那至於比例多少我是覺得可能要比原來的5%要多那至於是11%還是多少還是翁委員提的20%這個可以來斟酌"},{"start":10357.478,"end":10376.548,"text":"是不是這樣子好不好周嘉賓委員講的是有道理你現在數字統計是11%最低就是11%清函學生這個是不是要稍微高一點那您是不是看我們是同意的就是說如果能夠11%那委員如果堅持是說要20%我們就配合辦理"},{"start":10377.108,"end":10391.85,"text":"那其他兩個就不要了那就是現在教育部配合辦理不低於金額的20%那因此我們只137案教育部這邊主決議這邊是可以接受的是不是後面有兩個要調整後面兩個就不要了啦"},{"start":10392.33,"end":10402.137,"text":"但是後面還有兩個修正您就 董委員您看呢第三跟第四部長那裡已經同意了而且我再說明一下在第三點的後面的再培訓及補助各項培訓計畫我尊重教育部的意見就是變成再培訓課程"},{"start":10408.982,"end":10423.773,"text":"就是並針對受產業影響結構調整的勞工提供知識與技能的再培訓課程然後把後面的補助各項培訓計畫那個刪除但是第4點的部分真的我們現在各個大學裡面非常缺博士生是"},{"start":10424.754,"end":10445.765,"text":"對 如果沒有博士生的話怎麼會有老師所以我真的認為說是應該要多給一些經費然後能夠鼓勵我們台灣優秀的學生能夠留在國內讀博士所以也很希望部長能夠支持這個案子好嗎畢竟他這是特別預算他第四點就對博士班的獎金金額不得低於計畫30%您的看法請表達一點 謝謝"},{"start":10448.735,"end":10477.3,"text":"我們原來是因為教育部公務預算事實上也對博士班這一個部分也有一些已經有一些這一個加碼的一個那當然委員對博士生這事實上在高等教育的品質當然也很重要但我也希望說我們是不是還是有一個標準博士班的學生他真正在課業跟研究上的表現他要有一定的水準而不是齊頭式的一個平等我想在這個原則上我們來配合辦理"},{"start":10478.22,"end":10497.993,"text":"那這要怎麼把它文字化呢你這個講的像莎士比亞一樣你這要怎麼把它文字化呢是不是說在10億等於說10億元的一個我們用來支撐這個例如直接把數字10億元定出來那歐美尼卡直接教育部直接定一個數字可以嗎"},{"start":10499.097,"end":10526.885,"text":"這樣的話其實這筆預算金額是80億剛剛部長講的其實在現在這個例行性的計畫裡面就給大學老師什麼彈性薪資然後鼓勵新聘的老師這些預算都在年度預算就有了所以如果說依照剛剛部長的講法的話基本上也不是很合邏輯因為我們現在就是因應特別關稅然後考慮到就是也希望更多可能失業的勞工優秀的人才可以來"},{"start":10527.845,"end":10555.544,"text":"我們在公務預算今年15年就有編10億就是用來加碼這個支持博士班那如果這10億等於我們就有double確實對博士生來講我想這個事實上他有特殊的不是那你這樣的話你對於師資延攬的部分你本來在公務預算裡面就有你現在double的還不只是還不只是double你現在已經是多了4倍或是5倍更多所以我的想法真的"},{"start":10556.864,"end":10580.455,"text":"現在的意思就是說我們希望這比81的經費能夠多用在學生其實整個概念當時是高等人才教育培養而不是說是高等師資教育培養是圓覽人才我們必須要跟委員報告不要急嘛 等一下一定會讓你發言因為他現在已經到了最關鍵了好不好歐委員那像教育部所提出來增列10億你對這個數字覺得太低是不是"},{"start":10583.703,"end":10587.046,"text":"那您覺得要怎麼樣 你可以現在提出來如果說這樣的話 妥協的話就是20億啦"},{"start":10590.263,"end":10618.408,"text":"對 我覺得說還是要 真的要鼓勵好 二十億接近百分之二十五囉接近百分之二十五 好歐委員提出來的建議就是直接就是二十億新台幣就不講%直接講金額因為部長提的是金額嘛 十億那歐委員認為加匯這些博士班學生直接把它double 直接二十億在剛剛您說的那個還有一個十億加起來就三十億了"},{"start":10618.968,"end":10647.999,"text":"您看這樣可不可以接受沒有沒有 那另外一個 另外一個幫助博士公寓 另外一個我們來配合辦理好那翁委員請問一下教育部現在配合辦理您有沒有意見沒有意見好 我們現在針對第四點高等教育人才永續發展促進計畫我們改為最後一行鼓勵優秀人才報告博士班那"},{"start":10649.557,"end":10667.87,"text":"此項獎註金額不得低於20億元新台幣以提升整體高等教育品質教育部可以同意 歐盟也可以同意各位黨團剛剛有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見 副委員請其實這個部長"},{"start":10672.745,"end":10699.352,"text":"韓院長已經一直在做球給你我不曉得你為什麼反應為什麼這樣子很奇怪轉不過來歐文言的提示已經很清楚他在大學裡面非常熟認的了解現在校園需要什麼學生需要什麼所以提出包括親韓學生要如何支持博士生要如何支持畢竟是在特別預算因為你們"},{"start":10701.941,"end":10713.051,"text":"長年預算本身就有這些相關的經費那既然在特別預算裡面更希望能夠支持到這些需要被支持的學生所以這一案137案也剛經過部長 公務委員溝通以後"},{"start":10719.699,"end":10740.289,"text":"這個對博士生的獎助金額從80億的30%已經調降為25%我想其他的部分我們就不要再提其他的意義好不好因為這個直接又會回到前面央委提案的134案我想那137案就照雙方現在協議的這樣子來進行我們134案原則上"},{"start":10744.691,"end":10756.679,"text":"這個案就不存在了沒有關係 我們先確定137131組決議 大家沒有意見 我們就修正通過好 我們現在回到134動5億 動5億"},{"start":10766.741,"end":10775.086,"text":"那歐元提出凍結5億就不刪減了然後經過報告之後使得動之書面報告之後使得動之 政部長這邊沒有意見好 134案我們就凍結5億元加書面報告好 謝謝我們進入135張其凱委員所關切的剛才說凍結4億元張其凱委員已經發言過請問教育部有沒有表達意見"},{"start":10794.67,"end":10798.892,"text":"好 教育部配合辦理我們135萬凍結4元我們進入136案郭國文委員改為主決議好謝謝"},{"start":10820.252,"end":10822.795,"text":"謝謝教育部正部長跟列席的官員 謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝院長 謝謝各位謝謝 辛苦大家"},{"start":10837.578,"end":10856.205,"text":"來 拱部長 請 謝謝我們進入經濟部138案國民黨謝依鳳委員所提出請拱部長 請表達意見我們遵照辦理好 138案遵照辦理139 謝依鳳委員所提出 請拱部長 請表達意見也是遵照辦理好 謝謝 140"},{"start":10857.932,"end":10878.471,"text":"也是中招辦理謝謝 141也是中招辦理謝謝 142也是中招辦理好 謝謝 143143 修正文字 剛剛跟委員有討論過了跟張機閣委員也討論過了修正文字就是後面委員手上兩個月會把那個寫得更清楚兩個月內提書面報告嘛"},{"start":10880.553,"end":10903.812,"text":"那143案的話呢經濟部表達已經跟黨團提案黨團溝通完畢了兩個月之內會提出更清楚的說明那沒有問題我們就通過修正通過了好 謝謝現在我們進入第三項國際貿易署144144我們是不是可以希望可以改正組決議144好的"},{"start":10907.555,"end":10933.592,"text":"因為那個黃委員他是比較在問說這個因為我們這個經費是要防制席產地的他在問說那這個席產地是我們主動編進來還是美國人要求那我們是說因為美國那時候他在對外講的時候就是川普總統對外講的時候就是對等談判之外如果有發現席產地的話要加徵40%"},{"start":10935.475,"end":10962.353,"text":"的稅那這樣的話我們就要去防止這個被加徵40%的狀況所以特別就要有這樣的經費來防止這樣的做法好 謝謝那部長提出來改為主決議那個張祺凱台灣民眾黨團陳昭志委員的意見請表達這剛剛經過溝通我們沒有同意啦因為這個很嚴重是牽扯到息產力的問題好不好我們先依照我們的凍結這個凍結數然後三個月內來財政跟經濟委員會報告完以後"},{"start":10965.695,"end":10990.235,"text":"才可以動之經濟部這邊關於這個凍結三億四千萬三個月之內提出書面報告可以接受嗎人書面報告嗎張啟凱委員他現在經濟部接受在三個月之內提出書面報告之後使得凍之您有沒有意見 沒有意見 好"},{"start":10994.952,"end":10998.661,"text":"就照你的意思啊你听我念完不要急你看我眼睛嘛"},{"start":10999.611,"end":11028.809,"text":"你這搞一百多個案子好不好 你每個案子這樣慢一點就現在這個經濟部已經同意凍結你們所提出三億四千萬剩下三個月之內提出書面報告之後 使得凍資請問張其凱委員有沒有意見好 好 謝謝一百四十四案 大家其他沒有意見我們修正通過一百四十五案經濟部請表達意見報告主席一百四十五跟一百四十六是同一個項目可不可以一起定案好了可以可以 可以請"},{"start":11029.349,"end":11047.237,"text":"那黃委員他是說我們在這個經費裡面有編了委託智庫來針對國際情勢變化的這個影響是不是可能會跟平常的預算有一些重複那我們是認為就是說因為"},{"start":11049.017,"end":11072.389,"text":"這對典關稅還有國際情勢在兩年當中它是滾動式在變化所以我們要請智庫幫忙的頻率會比較高另外也就是下一個案子就是說我們也要透過這個智庫跟其他國家的智庫有很好的連結因為他們也在算這個事情他們也在關心這個事情所以有必要這樣的出國經費讓他們去做這樣的聯繫大概是這個樣子"},{"start":11076.671,"end":11100.776,"text":"你現在講完你還沒有講出所以希望改成主決議或者是我們提書面報告把這個講清楚因為145台灣民眾黨案提出來是減裂五千萬那146案台灣民眾黨案提出來是凍結兩億合起來是減裂五千加上凍結兩億原劣數是十億那您這樣的話您是希望兩個案都改為主決議"},{"start":11101.656,"end":11122.745,"text":"是是是那張棋凱委員請表達意見剛剛我們已經做了同意因為院長剛剛開口這兩個案子我們就非常堅持我們一定要送到立法院經濟委員會同意以後才可以動之堅持我們原來的提案 謝謝也就是說第145萬張棋凱委員您認為是凍結還是減劣145 凍結好 你這邊寫的是減劣改為凍結好不好 是不是這樣子你原來是減劣喔等一下等一下對 你是減劣喔"},{"start":11132.25,"end":11139.334,"text":"然後你146類是凍結145案是有檢列也有凍結兩個同時存在的然後146案只有凍結所以說145的那個檢列5000要堅持要檢列5000凍結1000還是要凍結1000另外146凍結2000000"},{"start":11154.924,"end":11174.94,"text":"是這個意思 那各位黨團 其他幹部有沒有中委員請那個簡略5000的部分是不是因為你既然是要來報告了嘛那是不是都改成凍結因為反正來報告後才能確定要不要給他嘛都改成凍結 這樣一次處理事實上我們在委員會的時候討論已經刪掉1000億了1000萬 1000多萬"},{"start":11181.142,"end":11203.751,"text":"張委員如果說全部改為凍結就分成三筆五千萬 一千萬跟兩億元通通改為凍結啦改組決議嘛對 就是改為凍結一百四十五萬 凍結一千萬一百四十六萬 凍結兩億元然後經過三個月之內經過報告之後 使得凍資"},{"start":11206.533,"end":11212.217,"text":"那各位黨團幹部145案我們凍結1000萬元146案凍結2億元然後"},{"start":11226.86,"end":11242.367,"text":"經過書面報告之後 三個月之內提出書面報告之後 使得動之請問各位黨黨幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 經濟部有沒有意見沒有意見 好 我們進入147組決議請經濟部表達一點好 147 我們組決議我們就通過現在勞動部 謝謝 國務部長 謝謝經濟部官員 謝謝"},{"start":11261.67,"end":11267.437,"text":"好 謝謝我們進入148案148案原列數101凍結20%台灣民眾黨團提出請問勞動部洪部長請表達意見"},{"start":11275.403,"end":11292.219,"text":"跟這個主席還有各位委員說明因為這個其實是波普勞保的100億元波普勞保基金的100億元那基本上這波普勞保基金其實也是在我們之前通過的特別條例裡面"},{"start":11292.879,"end":11308.08,"text":"其實在特別條例裡面的第三條的第一項第七款裡面就寫到波普勞保條例所以我們是希望說是不是這部就不要凍結可不可以改成主決議好 請提案台灣民眾黨團張委員請表達意見"},{"start":11311.204,"end":11336.743,"text":"請陳委員 陳昭志委員請表達意見洪部長你對我跳票幾次了你答應的都不算數我們在處理勞動部的預算的時候我就一直強調這個勞保勞保從106年就開始入不敷出啊然後迄今連續8年都斥資你知道勞工嚇死了他們就是依靠未來的這個整個基金要來支撐他們的最後的這個退休後生活你113年度的那個這個收支決算短處660億"},{"start":11339.746,"end":11367.704,"text":"114年到現在在7月底是短處將近400億所以我上次在這個勞動部這個解凍案的時候我通過附帶決議當時就說你看我勉為其難答應你說就把這個凍結的部分我記得是凍結10%或50%蠻大的一個數字那蘇昭偉在那邊一直折衝所以你答應我三個月內要研議政府最終責任及負責任入法你說好啊結果時間過去了你根本不理我啊"},{"start":11368.044,"end":11391.324,"text":"我沒有 你今天怎麼來面對我 我說明第一個因為我知道其實好幾個委員很關注這個政府最終責任那個入勞保條例的部分那基本上我其實因為這個民眾黨團林國成委員很一直在在意這件事情我其實有跟林委員跟民眾黨也都有說"},{"start":11392.785,"end":11416.138,"text":"院長在院會我們也有講到就是說如果這部分這個立法院要來排審那我們會持開放的態度我們會持開放的態度所以這個其實就是我們的態度所以關於因為我知道有幾個委員很在意這個最終責任入法的部分我們持開放態度陳教授委員請補充意見"},{"start":11416.874,"end":11445.404,"text":"沒有你不是當時是你今天的講話跟那天差很大這個就是說你當時覺得困難重重所有民進黨的立委都在幫你說話結果這個多困難事多困難事怎麼我提了一個這麼不可思議的問題是這件事其實民進黨在野的時候就提了整個勞工大概900多萬要你等著這句話你現在用所謂的挹注有點錢就趕快撥一下有點錢撥這個我們要的是一個真的常態化入法的常態化要穩定的機制"},{"start":11446.224,"end":11451.286,"text":"這個是全勞工在7萬多而且你們動不動就告訴大家都要破產了要破產了那你叫這群勞工怎麼辦所以你那時候有答應我你至少開始規劃你覺得很困難我還鼓勵你你這個年紀輕輕去當上勞動部部長是勞運出身你就開始寫開始規劃你答應我啦你今天告訴我說要入法我們也不反對反對啊那個執政就在委員會全部就翻倒我啊就我一個人在撐啊"},{"start":11474.158,"end":11493.435,"text":"跟委員報告我說這個議題在總諮詢的時候在院會裡面被詢跟院長一起被詢的時候我們其實就有表達追蹤責任入法這件事情我們就是持開放的態度"},{"start":11495.257,"end":11518.443,"text":"陳昌志委員他現在持開放的態度那我再請你再發言他還是持開放態度那現在您覺得這個凍結20%他希望改為主決這個真的是給勞工的錢啊沒關係陳昌志委員請三次發言沒問題謝謝讓我就是繼續講什麼叫開放態度又跟邱若凡一樣你們又不給願版了你們沒有版嗎就用我們的版嗎用民眾黨的版嗎"},{"start":11518.803,"end":11545.459,"text":"因為其實幾個委員都有搬你所謂的開放你就是不負責任你從來沒有對岸提出這個執政黨不要再搞這件事我們太多重要法案你就是你們看怎麼解決到時候表決輸了回去就反正輸了誰叫我們人數不夠難怪要再搞一次大罷免對不對不是這樣你跟我說開放請你解釋什麼叫開放開放是什麼意思我們其實現在我們的政策上面的態度其實就是政府的最終負起最終責任那提出來啊"},{"start":11546.4,"end":11560.337,"text":"對我們其實現在政策上就是政府負起最終責任不是政策那要把這幾個字放到勞保條例裡面那把放進去那在這個放入法這件事情我們不會表達反對我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":11564.622,"end":11591.421,"text":"主席這個問題不解我們民眾黨的態度就堅持就是凍結然後就你看你要不要寫嘛你要解凍你就是報告要好好寫你到現在都不教功課啊你答應我的事你都沒有做功課也不教我們已經寫了我們已經教了時間過了我怎麼不知道我們怎麼沒收到在8月底的時候其實就寫了我們應該就有8月底8月底我們的報告就有了好 謝謝我們現在接下來陳培宇委員請發言"},{"start":11593.007,"end":11619.589,"text":"那個謝謝兩位剛剛的對話但是我想部長其實剛剛已經很有誠意的解釋這個錢其實就是直接撥補勞保基金那部長也沒有逃避責任那部長也有跟陳委員有認證的交代那不只是開放態度啦那八月底的報告是不是就請部長待會說明請部長說明一下那拜託陳委員再聽一下因為這個錢就是直接撥補那個基金所以拜託委員你再聽一下好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11621.397,"end":11643.146,"text":"根文因為這個錢真的是勞保金這都是100億百分之百全部都是給勞工的錢那你這個因為我跟根文說因為這個錢其實照理來說應該是在明年的1月1號就要撥補進去了所以如果今天有任何一個凍結的話就等於會有一筆錢被凍結在撥補它沒有辦法在明年1月1號撥補進去的狀況之下"},{"start":11645.367,"end":11661.418,"text":"其實我覺得這並不是一件好事所以我很希望說我們對於最終責任入法這個議題我們是持開放的態度的那如果立法院要來排審那我覺得大家就來做這些相對應的審查那我們基本上就是開放的"},{"start":11662.645,"end":11691.378,"text":"可不可以以後不要再講撥補這兩個字了我們就是不要你撥補啊就是要你常態要入法啊就是要入法總要有一天開始啟動啊現在已經2025年了你要啟動啊要啟動入法的規劃機制啊開始要入法啊那你始終如果不要再講開放也不要講撥補好嗎就是不安心嘛就是你對勞工沒有辦法交代嘛你為什麼不把責任扛起來呢就是扛責任嘛政府對你扛起來就是撥補嘛"},{"start":11694.96,"end":11711.713,"text":"政府一定會扛起勞保基金的責任這是一定的政府不扛沒有人扛政府一定扛我們一定扛這是毫無意義的事情毫無意義的事情我在這裡可以把包票那個陳昭志委員洪部長這樣子講您那個這樣子"},{"start":11716.074,"end":11733.749,"text":"我要求那個就是你們要提出願板你們提出對案出來就是那個最終責任如果提對案出來看多久你要多久可以出來那洪部長這邊願板這邊您可以用口頭先表達一下沒關係你既然說政策是這樣開放你的開放我等一下這個這個我可不可以在私下跟委員溝通一下這件事情你功課還在顧喔"},{"start":11734.97,"end":11763.053,"text":"因為現在已經快六點鐘了所以我就不休息一直往前再往下開會你現在沒有辦法休息再私下溝通你就是能不能提一個願板出來這樣好你提願板之前你一定負責跟陳昭之委員進行溝通這樣會不會比較好一點我再重複一遍你提願板之前因為這個不是不是他不喜歡找我這個議題這個議題基本上我們就是持開放的態度委員會如果要審我們就大家就審然後"},{"start":11765.604,"end":11791.349,"text":"該怎麼樣子入法就這樣我們的態度就是這樣子我們沒有要阻擋這件事也沒有要反對這個概念覺得他這樣夠不夠開放就是怕他開放開放就是空白的意思就是不要他這樣講開放跟撥補我們不會表達反對在這個案上我們不會表達反對撥補多少看情形那這樣的話我只能裁決保留如果要這樣的話我只能裁決保留可是這個這個一定是撥補的"},{"start":11797.292,"end":11808.444,"text":"這個 柯總召我們要留點這個功德給真的我們的後代讓他們安心啊遲早要入法你也知道這個一定要入法的嗎天天這樣做不是 你現在的提案才是功德啊"},{"start":11811.507,"end":11822.962,"text":"你們要解決真的要去幫勞工的話就是真的要趕快不只入法你要確實去做你就連一個案子都不提嘛我們第148案保留我們第149案勞動部表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":11828.206,"end":11839.05,"text":"這個案子其實是國民黨團提的其實也是勞保基金的部分我們也是希望能夠爭取是可以有組決議我們願意其實來寫書面報告把這個書面報告"},{"start":11845.412,"end":11864.659,"text":"後面有一個括號 含勞保基金財務改善因應對策原本是寫含勞保基金改革之其成與方案把它改成含勞保基金財務改善因應對策我們願意來寫一個這樣的報告希望能夠爭取改組決議謝謝 國民黨團請表達意見我想國民黨"},{"start":11873.264,"end":11889.541,"text":"對這次的特別預算已經廣開扇門我覺得這個洪部長不要得寸進尺一百億只凍結一億最終的目的就是要你到立法院來報告"},{"start":11892.216,"end":11919.218,"text":"年金改革的期程跟方案剛剛陳昭志委員講了半天就是你什麼時候要提出你的方案出來不是你都開放什麼叫開放要拿你的布板要送過來嘛不是放話放得很好聽嘛那現在只凍結一百億只凍結一億還不是刪除欸只是要你一個態度而已你連這個態度都不給立法院"},{"start":11920.236,"end":11942.432,"text":"我覺得他們如果這樣的話 都願會處理啦黃班長現在就是說大家國民黨團 台灣民眾黨都希望看到院版的這個關於這個最終責任已經很明顯你可以再表達一下意見我們對於最終責任入法就是開放的態度然後我們不會表達反對好 鍾委員請"},{"start":11944.243,"end":11961.578,"text":"我是這樣的因為剛148案同樣的事情我們討論那麼久那如果149案如果假設跟主席詢問一下如果149案呢這個洪部長說那就凍結1億那我們提個專案報告使得凍資那如果這個同意過了那148案是不是也是比照辦理呢"},{"start":11962.779,"end":11973.318,"text":"對 如果說以異動節報告後專案報告時的動之就可以了那你前面的148案不同政黨提出不同的不要混為一談因為這個同一件事情嘛同一件事情沒有錯"},{"start":11974.957,"end":12004.177,"text":"兩件 兩個提案都是要求他提出來但是從頭到尾都還在講都還在講 講得很漂亮那你院版提出來嘛不要假裝聽不懂嘛院版提出來這兩個案子都可以談因為149案裡面講得很清楚嘛就是勞動部向立法院財政及相關會提出專案報告嘛含勞保年金的改革之期程與方案如果勞動部做到了這一點那一役呢就動之了"},{"start":12004.717,"end":12026.46,"text":"那但是我們148案現在保留到院會如果院會又通過了那這兩個就打架啦謝謝鍾委員意見那洪部長那我們149案就保留了好我們進入150案都保留了150案的話主決議我們現在有洪孟凱委員請勞動部表達意見"},{"start":12027.388,"end":12034.294,"text":"這個案子其實已經跟洪孟愷委員溝通過了 他已經同意了好 修正通過好 現在我們進入151案這個"},{"start":12039.705,"end":12062.946,"text":"151案請檢列2000萬 凍結400萬 請勞動部表達意見這案是針對我們其實在這一次因應關稅跟國際經貿情勢下給勞工的這個就業支持的方案的宣傳的經費那我這邊想要補充其實在從上半年開始我們其實跟工會大概幾十場的座談"},{"start":12063.907,"end":12088.53,"text":"其實很多的勞工朋友跟工會都是不斷的跟我們說因為這個勞工朋友其實這個獲得資訊的方式其實真的因為大家可能有不同的階層或不同類型的勞工所以都希望我們要擴大宣傳讓更多勞工朋友知道尤其是受到關稅影響的勞工朋友知道其實我們可以提供給他們的一些支持跟支持他們的方案"},{"start":12089.21,"end":12112.139,"text":"所以在這裡面我們編了四千萬元那我們很希望其實這四千萬是可以不用動山的那這次在這個委員會裡面其實也有一個當時有通過一個案子是併案是刪除兩百萬那我們是不是希望就能夠併委員會的提案就好也是針對這個就是針對宣傳的經費這樣子謝謝老鄧不意見請台灣民眾黨人請表達意見"},{"start":12116.141,"end":12134.14,"text":"高關稅衝擊之下已經多少人無奈的辛苦的在過無薪假了結果我們的勞動部竟然去編了四千萬要去做媒體宣傳跟政策的這個宣導錢不是應該用在勞工跟年輕人身上嗎"},{"start":12135.293,"end":12164.236,"text":"每一分錢都非常的重要這次為了支持勞工我們一共給了新台幣150億結果這次我們一翻開裡面竟然發現了還要拿4千萬去做宣傳有那麼多的產業已經是那麼慘了有多少人是減班休息的第一個你現在應該是尊責開支嘛你怎麼還去做宣傳更嚴重的是什麼歷年來看到你們這個所謂的媒體宣傳會拿出去都做了什麼"},{"start":12165.359,"end":12171.927,"text":"特定的媒體這是一個第二個產出的都是那種點滴率很低或者觸及力很低的還浪費了公堂"},{"start":12173.617,"end":12195.485,"text":"這筆預算到目前為止很多人看到是非常不是只有嘆氣是憤怒的所以我們很明確的談民眾黨要求把這四千萬砍掉一半兩千萬另外凍結四百萬請提出專案報告把錢用在刀口上幫助真正受到衝擊的產業還有無薪假的這個民眾此不要再插支摸粉那個"},{"start":12198.809,"end":12225.62,"text":"我先問一下勞動部議員再請總委好不好黃部長請表達一下跟委員說明其實現在我們最大的因為我們有一個政策出去勞工朋友要知道或者是企業要知道他們如果受到影響我們其實提供給他們申請的資源或者是他們要知道這件事情他們才知道要來申請他才有辦法可以取得這個資源跟權利所以我們這個宣傳的經費就是用在這個地方"},{"start":12226.892,"end":12252.359,"text":"這也是為什麼這麼多的勞工朋友因為我們是跟他們座談他才知道可是很多勞工朋友跟我們說可是不是每一個受影響的勞工朋友都能夠座談其他的可能不一定知道不一定都能夠從新聞上面知道他可能用多元的方式包括我們可能會在比方工業區讓他知道說如果你受到關稅衝擊如果你減班休息的話你要到哪裡去尋求協助"},{"start":12252.779,"end":12274.891,"text":"你要怎麼尋求協助這些事情都必須要靠宣傳都必須要靠媒宣而這個錢是拿來用在這個地方的他不是用在辦活動不是用在哪裡都不是是用在讓資訊能夠傳達讓勞工朋友知道他可以怎麼得到協助的這是這筆錢的最重要的用意在這裡所以OK好我們現在請中委員請發言"},{"start":12276.524,"end":12293.235,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個媒體宣傳這過過幾年來在我們的預算審查好像把它特定污名化如果把媒體宣傳變成是正確資訊傳播或是對抗假訊息我想大家的感受就不同我舉個例我們這次普發先進1萬元總共編列了2360億"},{"start":12299.4,"end":12326.16,"text":"每個人都一萬元那心想啊這個普派先進一萬媒體連篇累讀的報導哪個民眾不知道大家就等著11月要領一萬元照說呢是不需要奔列任何媒宣費用的但是我們看一看這段時間以來網路上看一看媒體上看一看社群上看一看有多少詐騙廣告每天傳到你的手機裡面告訴你說如果你要領一萬塊趕快什麼方式輸入呢我就幫你趕快領出來"},{"start":12327.961,"end":12332.456,"text":"请问针对这样的一个假讯息的轰炸诈骗广告的轰炸"},{"start":12333.598,"end":12358.089,"text":"正確的行政機關要不要提供正確的資訊呢需要啊所以我們就是需要一個資訊正確出現的傳播費啊所以呢我們這150億要給勞工的費用你是不是應該要給他提供正確的資訊讓他可以查證免得被詐騙所以我們是覺得說沒宣費用不要把它污名化或者原罪化沒宣的好像就是給業務單位拿去亂花 沒有"},{"start":12358.749,"end":12385.302,"text":"就是要去抵抗避免假訊息 詐騙訊息來詐騙我們的勞工我想這一點做個說明謝謝嘉賓委員發言然後我們請陳佩玉委員請好 不用請各位 請沒心肺啦不用汙名化他本身夠黑了啦連你們的卓院長都說過度集中對不對都是哪些哪些親力的媒體拿去這每個頁都要披露的啊而且後來效果怎麼樣大家也都看得到啊你們"},{"start":12388.263,"end":12407.39,"text":"這都明明確確的好 更重要的我今天講為什麼台灣民眾這麼堅持要砍掉一半你四千萬不會太多嗎這是一個點第二個你長久的效果就是不髒現在更重要更重要的那麼多人已經在放無薪假了你這筆錢每一分錢都要去用在勞工跟青年的身上嘛你現在還去做媒宣"},{"start":12409.454,"end":12432.028,"text":"所以我們現在堅持你就砍一半然後另外凍結了400萬來做專案報告顯然勞動部是沒有辦法接受那本案保留好 謝謝152案請勞動部表達意見 謝謝好那152案是翁曉林委員的案子那這個案子翁曉林委員是要把150億凍結30%"},{"start":12435.117,"end":12456.465,"text":"那這個凍結30%其實45億那這真的是蠻多的所以我們很希望是不是第一個還是能夠降低這個凍結的金額那因為這個150億真的是絕大多數都是給而且他都是給受衝擊的勞工部長您覺得能接受凍結多少你直接講我們這樣立刻就可以判定能不能夠3%3%對"},{"start":12460.762,"end":12472.07,"text":"好沒關係你提出來沒關係好謝謝因為我們提案呢翁委員也在現場請翁委員表達一些好那麼針對勞動部這次他提出的特別預算裡面又"},{"start":12473.258,"end":12499.991,"text":"又放了支持勞工安定就業150億元事實上我們知道之前勞動部對於就業安定基金的使用本來就有很多的爭議而且也不符合一些法定的用途然後還有一些追繳等等這些問題所以在這次他們在支持勞工安定就業項目底下所編列的預算又跟年度的常態預算多所重疊"},{"start":12500.871,"end":12526.34,"text":"那麼根據立法院預算中心的評估報告裡面他們這次的這個所編列的十項計畫就是在特別預算當中支持勞工安定就業項目底下編列的十項計畫大部分都是既有的措施或者是說在COVID-19的時候當時他們所提供的相關的措施所以並沒有什麼新意那麼更何況就是在"},{"start":12527.6,"end":12542.567,"text":"支援青年就業計劃裡面他們是特別針對第一次找工作的穩定的青年提供一些穩定就業計劃可是第一次找工作他根本就還不是勞工然後你就要去給他補助這也不符合就業安定基金的使用的規則"},{"start":12545.188,"end":12549.811,"text":"然後至於就是說勞動部其實從109年到112年當時辦理很多因應COVID-19的疫情相關措施那麼經過監審計部的查核那麼當時也有一些申請補助或津貼的領售人他根本不符合計劃的規定或者是有重複領取的性質的問題"},{"start":12571.082,"end":12587.228,"text":"所以本席認為說就目前就業安定基金它目前的規模還有430億其實這430億就已經足以去因應這次因為關稅衝擊的失業的勞工所以不需要就是"},{"start":12588.593,"end":12605.563,"text":"有這麼多的錢那麼同時對於他們所提出來的方案根本也不清不楚因此本席這邊提議就是要凍結百分之三十等他們提供更詳細的規劃之後呢使得凍值以上您百分之三十已經很清楚就是說紅布草期的百分之三你有沒有意見我當然有意見當然有意見差十倍所以你維持百分之三十不變"},{"start":12614.219,"end":12630.091,"text":"因為我之前提出的我之前提出給洪部長這邊參考就是說凍結10%可是他不接受那麼所以呢基本上我就維持我原來30%像翁小林委員的意思是說我們他提出來凍結10%勞動部請表達一下可不可以凍結5%好不好"},{"start":12638.666,"end":12661.462,"text":"因為這真的是都是給勞工朋友的錢這不是用在勞工部剛剛翁曉寧委員在講的話我有幾部分想回應第一個剛剛在講到青年尋職為什麼有青年初次尋職因為當關稅受衝擊的時候很多的企業他一開始他會開出給比方說就業博覽會裡面的一些職缺他可能就會鎖起來"},{"start":12662.362,"end":12683.385,"text":"所以他可能會對於青年找工作這件事情會有影響所以我們特別規劃給初次找工作的年輕人給他幫助的經費那第二個剛剛翁小英委員跟翁委員講的事情是因為現在關稅的衝擊的影響跟平常常態性的狀況真的是不一樣"},{"start":12685.382,"end":12709.16,"text":"現在大家都很關心因為關稅衝擊所造成的減班休息的狀況這些減班休息的狀況我們就是希望能夠用特別預算有多一點的經費包括我們也加碼給大家的薪資的津貼這是為什麼我們要編列這樣的錢的原因非常感謝洪部長說明因為還有好幾個單位在後面都在stand by不好意思而且現在"},{"start":12710.137,"end":12720.538,"text":"翁委員現在勞動部提出5% 你是堅持10%有沒有可能 因為現在我們快達成共識了如果能夠達成共識我們就達成 達不成就送"},{"start":12725.578,"end":12752.685,"text":"我要再強調就是說因為你們之前的一些計畫執行率非常低再加上現在就業安定基金本來就都還有430多億你們就已經去可以足以用原來的經費去支應這些受衝擊的勞工那現在呢這150億裡面然後凍結30%的部分你已經修正為10%了我現在修正10%我已經是降很多了否則的話我基本上是不同意的同意10%好"},{"start":12753.865,"end":12754.866,"text":"謝謝 我們151案 152案我們凍結10%"},{"start":12765.825,"end":12790.874,"text":"是院長除了就是凍結10%之外呢我這裡還有說希望這個這個希望勞動部能夠救受關稅衝擊的企業勞工提出專案因應輔助計畫向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告這不是被唐詩山白手念那麼長根本記不住現在我們先把阿拉伯數字確定好不好我們現在就是大家經過這麼辛苦我們達成凍結10%各黨團員沒意見"},{"start":12796.141,"end":12823.235,"text":"沒有意見 我們先確定151保了我宣布過了151保了 現在152啊你越講我越糊塗151都翻頁了 現在152我們經過那麼辛苦就希望達成一個共識嘛凍結10% 勞動部接受 公委員也接受那這個文字咧 我想我們再發下去請文字修正 勞動部來跟各位黨團幹部來參考一下好不好 好"},{"start":12837.693,"end":12848.66,"text":"好就跟剛才一樣好 文字可以好 勞動部接受好 謝謝謝謝勞動部 謝謝接下來農業部辛苦啊辛苦謝謝洪部長各位勞動部官員辛苦大家請農業部陳部長 謝謝好 我們進入153案153案農業部陳部長"},{"start":12860.478,"end":12861.783,"text":"我們153農業部主管 119歲 請問那個 修改啦"},{"start":12869.847,"end":12893.297,"text":"翁曉琳委員從20%改為凍結5%剩餘凍結部分提出書面報告之後始動之農業部有意見嗎沒有農業部知道13項貴謝謝154案不好意思那個報告院長因為我後面還有一個附加條件並且每會期要提供相關的執行進度請本會議提供相關程度我們會提書面報告以後並在每個會期提他的進度知道154案農業部請表達意見"},{"start":12900.18,"end":12929.144,"text":"五十四案的部分是民眾黨委員會民眾黨團提出來的那主要的是針對我們的冷鏈的計畫的部分那我要跟委員說明的部分就是我們在這一次的台美關稅本身的一個座談會裡面那大部分的農民或農民團體最需要的就是冷鏈的相關的設備那這個冷鏈的設備基本上是在因應這些產品沒辦法及時出口的時候能夠做一個凍存的部分那"},{"start":12930.41,"end":12953.899,"text":"張委員這邊有提到的就是說因為我們年度也有編所謂的冷鏈的計畫那這邊要跟委員說明的就是我們年度的這些冷鏈計畫最主要做基礎建設那這個基礎建設包括區域冷鏈物流中心都是跟地方政府合作的他所受的是一般的作務但是在這個特別預算裡面的對象是不一樣的一定是受到衝擊的這些品項"},{"start":12954.719,"end":12969.878,"text":"那這些品項本身是需要做一些冷鏈的部分的處理所以希望委員能夠接受我們提書面報告後再動之以上提書面報告那提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達一下請掌握時間 謝謝"},{"start":12974.867,"end":12999.372,"text":"行政院從民國110年開始推動到目前已經有三座旗艦的物流中心了還有10處的區域物流中心他從110年到113年我們去查建過農產品冷鏈物流及品質確保市販體系4年這個中長期就已經花了126億喔另外呢"},{"start":13001.516,"end":13023.121,"text":"114年開始又執行一個建構農產品冷鏈物流及品質確保示範體系第二期又編了71億就從民國110年到現在為止已經花了將近200億了而且這個冷鏈中心不是隨便設的它在每個地點都需要很明確的分工跟盤點"},{"start":13024.505,"end":13041.702,"text":"所以我們這次又發現竟然這次冷鏈用特別預算一下又灌了50億進來之前已經用了200億左右的現在又出現了50億而且跟年度預算大部分都是連同的資源根本就是重疊的啊"},{"start":13042.728,"end":13058.431,"text":"而且我們看這個預算書特別預算裡面的他前期整個規劃還是不足的特別是在到底要選址選在哪個地方都沒有清楚的所以農業部的意見你不接受所以我們明確的要求減內25億另外凍結5億凍結這5億凍結這5億等在三個月內提到經濟委員會報告同意之後使得凍失這5億另外先前先砍25億"},{"start":13071.243,"end":13088.242,"text":"那個農業部這邊張提案的黨團在繼續堅持簡歷二十五一凍結五億請您表達意見我再次說明就是我們這一次特別預算的不是去給地方政府不是去選址我們的基礎工程是跟地方政府合作就要選適當的位置"},{"start":13089.964,"end":13118.505,"text":"但是這個是受到衝擊的產業的業者本身我舉個例子像鬼頭刀我們針對鬼頭刀他的船上的這些冷凍冷藏的設備還有他下船以後的養殖漁業的無鍋魚的這些農民團體或是農民本身比較大的農民之間去協助他做冷凍冷藏設備他不是說跟我們的基礎建設那個是基礎建設是另外一件事情這是我想請委員能夠支持"},{"start":13120.058,"end":13132.091,"text":"好 鍾委員請發言謝謝 我想剛剛張旗開委員是有很清楚的掌握到我們農業冷鏈過去的執行情況那我再說明一下三座旗艦物流中心是放在機場"},{"start":13133.95,"end":13154.104,"text":"這10處的區域中心是放在我們農業區的一個樞紐區那現在剛剛我們農業部的說明是怎樣我們冷鏈大概在兩個部分一個是生產端一個是加工端一個是出口端我們在出口端跟加工端就是上次之前年度預算所執行的現在我們在生產端什麼叫生產端呢我芋頭採收了"},{"start":13155.405,"end":13162.915,"text":"如果我沒有有冷鏈把它降溫把它冷藏我可能五天就壞掉了所以農民需要有一個冷鏈那個冷鏈可能沒有很大一個貨櫃那麼大我這個芋頭可以放到三個月的時候我就不用花錢來給我抬價啦"},{"start":13170.746,"end":13196.642,"text":"但是如果我沒有這個能念我生產端的農民我放五天就會壞最後一天換他來跟我說多少出價我就要賣他但是過去農業部所支持的是在哪裡機場要出口的或是加工廠大型加工廠 裁切廠那實處是便於食品加工用的現在我們要布點的是在生產端漁民 漁船上來我就給他動然後上了岸再送去加工加工完再出口"},{"start":13197.622,"end":13223.06,"text":"這個整個過程它是逐層式鋪建的所以我們現在在第一線我們很需要這樣的預算來幫助農民在生產端不管是漁民的漁船上還是我的農作物我的蘭花我的鳳梨我在我的生產端那邊就可以先有一個冷鏈讓它保存起來才不會在物流的過程產銷的過程當中被中間商所破我要強調一次前面的是什麼出口"},{"start":13224.369,"end":13246.709,"text":"三個地方包括機場十個地方是屬於大型加工廠他需要冷鏈現在我們不見到農民的生產端在產地在漁船上這個部分拜託張其開委員我們可以來理解後來給予支持好不好我們拜託農民拜託現在農業部的意思是說還是希望不要跟凍結提案的黨團委員請再度表達意見我要裁決 請"},{"start":13248.533,"end":13269.204,"text":"嘉賓講的就是跟我們剛提的案子不是一樣嘛你本來在年度預算裡面應該做的事情那你現在又這是一個高關稅你又弄了一個跟年度預算都是重疊的沒有嘛 聽我講嘛 聽我講嘛一個是重疊性然後第二個更嚴重的你從預算書你也看不出來你的前期規劃整個那個都是不清楚的 都粗糙嘛所以你才提說第一個你量已經過了"},{"start":13270.345,"end":13284.659,"text":"你從111年你已經投了200億進去每一分錢都是民脂民膏我們看不到你計畫嘛所以我們先看這個我們給了你一半喔50億是給了一半喔另外凍結了一部分請你把計畫提出來弄清楚說你的細部規劃所需的經費跟你要達成什麼目標如果同意的話這筆錢再給"},{"start":13289.706,"end":13316.813,"text":"兩個性質不一樣的現在這個樣子提案的黨團很堅持您可不可以做最後的我可以再跟委員報告第一個部分就是對象不一樣我們這次受到衝擊的這些產業不會擴及到非衝擊的產業以外的部分然後之前的這些冷鏈的建設是全國建構全國的冷鏈物流包括區域冷鏈中心是針對跟縣市政府合作然後這些產品是做到加工的"},{"start":13317.153,"end":13344.502,"text":"那現在是很多因為外銷受阻的時候我就必須要有一些冷藏冷凍的部分讓他暫緩出口的時候的一個作為所以這個部分是針對但是我們的對象現在有受到衝擊的時候他們需要的時候就會提出來所以我們對產業升級的部分那還是拜託委員能夠支持我們可以用書面的資料然後甚至於每一個會期都提供我們的相關的進度跟成果報告給您好 謝謝陳委員請發言"},{"start":13346.909,"end":13372.674,"text":"好 謝謝院長給我發言的機會那我們是不是可以討論一下也請民共黨團這邊是不是可以考慮一下關於檢列的部分跟凍檢你們都各自有提出一些數字那如果張其凱委員你可以接受剛剛包含中嘉賓委員剛剛的說法確實他們保證不會溢出受關稅衝擊的產業他們會focus在不管是之前他們有去辦鬼頭刀的說明會等等那我們是不是可以請求"},{"start":13373.794,"end":13394.319,"text":"凍結的部分我們也許就尊重民眾黨團但是在檢列的部分是不是可以給農業部一個空間跟討論的機會陳培偉的意思是說凍結還是凍結檢列部分就把它取消掉他是這個意思修正張啟凱委員你做最後表達我要做裁決了我剛剛就講過了這個本來它的用途跟年度預算就已經重疊了"},{"start":13395.439,"end":13412.276,"text":"當然是要刪啊你不同意就對了現在我們保153案保留性質是一樣的啦好了 不要再翻頁不要再回頭 我已經下達我已經做出保留處置了好不好保留決定了好不好現在議務五案主決議 請農業部表達意見"},{"start":13413.57,"end":13432.326,"text":"遵照辦理好謝謝156案遵照辦理謝謝157案遵照辦理謝謝158案遵照辦理好謝謝159案遵照辦理好謝謝那關於160的主決議國民黨團謝一鳳所提出來的委員所提出來的160遵照辦理160主決議遵照辦理好謝謝"},{"start":13439.085,"end":13460.197,"text":"謝謝農業部陳部長 謝謝各位農業部官謝謝謝謝天氣已經晚了 謝謝大家接下來衛福部我們謝謝衛福部我們第161案一族全民健康保險國民黨團提出凍結1億元新台幣請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13461.641,"end":13484.793,"text":"主席跟各位委員報告這個健保一項我們都在國際上的評比不錯那去年呢那麼在立法院裡面也有過關於這個健保的永續特別是點子的保障等等問題你接受不接受我們也努力了所以是希望說這不是刪減喔這是凍結喔對能不能接受"},{"start":13485.353,"end":13503.44,"text":"是不是說這個從這個第幾行 1 2 3 4 5第五行後面民進黨政府執政迄今十年不思提出改革良策只知不斷用基金破產來恐嚇人民用撥補來煽動問題這些文字是不是可以刪除"},{"start":13503.9,"end":13521.769,"text":"因為事實上我們做了很多的努力那麼包含把一些原本在健保裡面那麼屬於比較政策性的我們用公務預算移出那麼讓這個財務上能夠更好那另外也提出了很多的細則的修進甚至在研究這個"},{"start":13523.931,"end":13536.244,"text":"廢機的擴大等等所以是不是可以把這些文字刪除那我們改成主決議會提案按照這個提案向這個立法院財政及相關委員會提出檢討書面報告"},{"start":13539.512,"end":13559.638,"text":"謝謝石部長 怪不得其實應該他是說將來他這只是凍結而已他現在請各位黨團幹部特別是天安國民黨團請看一下他就是所謂第五行民進黨政府執政迄今十年不思提出改革這個開始他這一段他希望能夠刪除其他金額凍結議員您沒意見"},{"start":13562.48,"end":13572.028,"text":"對文字有意見如果可以變成是這個主決議就是不凍結那我們來提出報告連凍結都有意見 希望改為主決議好 請國民黨團 天安黨團 請表達意見基本上 民進黨政府執政起今十年不失提出改革良策一直用基金破產恐嚇人民用波普來閃走問題粉飾太平 事實問題啊為什麼不能寫"},{"start":13589.714,"end":13610.688,"text":"凍結一役就凍結一役啊那如果照你這樣說法那這個案子也很好處理就保留直接送院會啊好 司部長您能接受嗎提案國民黨團他堅持因為我們一直在努力讓這個健保的財務永續啦並不是說完全沒有在做改革好 謝謝 謝謝司部長再次的回答我們161案保留送院會進入162案 請"},{"start":13615.357,"end":13631.004,"text":"衛福部請表達意見 凍結0.01 國民黨團所提議是 那個委員已經同意 改成主決議好 謝謝 我們162改為主決議修正通過163國民黨團羅明財委員所提出 遵照辦理好 謝謝 164"},{"start":13633.705,"end":13645.431,"text":"順照辦理謝謝165順照辦理謝謝166166委員有同意修正文字修正文字在各位手上謝一芬委員同意修正文字"},{"start":13647.072,"end":13666.592,"text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見沒有意見我們就照修正通過167167這個遵照辦理好168遵照辦理非常非常感謝我們現在進入169簡列2000的台灣民眾黨團所提請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13668.059,"end":13684.031,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個在這一次的特別預算裡面有特別對獨老就是獨居老人的關懷服務包含這個訪視關懷送餐還有這個緊急救援等等但是因為這些獨老獨老者"},{"start":13684.451,"end":13699.436,"text":"不容易接觸所以我們有編列這個沒宣費那麼希望能夠來讓這些老人知道有這些服務能夠得到這些幫忙所以希望不要這個刪減因為我們總共才編3253萬那減列了2600萬的話我們就很難執行了"},{"start":13707.916,"end":13722.653,"text":"好 謝謝那現在衛福部所提的請提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好 請陳昭之委員請表達市部長你115年購屋預算你就編了沒宣費 編多少你記得嗎"},{"start":13723.547,"end":13729.669,"text":"115年的公務預算做個比例是1700萬但你這一次的沒宣費你編了快要兩倍耶這是兩年"},{"start":13740.954,"end":13763.503,"text":"然後就你在本來有的預算這次第一個就是說這樣子的合理性我們來討論看看第二個 第二個就是說一下將近兩倍 兩倍的一個費用就是說正常的預算是這樣然後你在特別預算的時候變成有兩倍的沒去費用然後你說要照顧弱勢或是老人等等這個是專做獨居老人"},{"start":13767.085,"end":13785.706,"text":"你這個煤圈它要怎麼用它數位落差它也不用手機也不用電腦也不用你要怎麼對老人做這些而且高關稅老實說也不會加速跟老化的這個問題這個都不太相關所以你變這個預算又比正常的預算又多兩倍然後對象又是他們"},{"start":13786.874,"end":13804.9,"text":"老實說你是我可能你也是跟我現在難過關喔不容易approach啦所以我們是希望說不要剪裂那凍結讓我們來報告沒有問題但是不要剪裂讓我們可以去執行這樣那個現在台灣民眾黨團是不是提出修正"},{"start":13806.269,"end":13833.07,"text":"修正的就是檢列1627000然後並聯席會三檢數請問一下台灣民眾黨團有沒有提這個案其他不要再說就只講有還是沒有我們就是 沒有啦我們就是堅持原案我們檢列2000你提了比年度預算更多我們是要求檢列2600 2600萬然後另外凍結維持原案就對了啦就是邵志剛講的我們維持原案張委員這邊有你們的簽字"},{"start":13834.474,"end":13838.025,"text":"黃國昌總召他建議"},{"start":13840.151,"end":13862.485,"text":"好 他建議這個 OK好 那換句話說張旗開委員他就現在堅持原來的所提減列2600萬要加一個字叫餘剩下的餘額凍結30%因為少了這個餘 好不好 加進去請問一下衛福部有沒有意見這樣是沒有辦法執行好 那我們本案保留我們進入170案凍結20%國民黨團所提案請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13867.068,"end":13876.094,"text":"這個委員已經同意有修正 改動節10%好 我們170案改動 提案的委員改為10%剩下書面報告之後時的動資 好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝衛福部 各位部長 主席長 謝謝"},{"start":13892.113,"end":13910.057,"text":"那我現在做一個宣告現在我們第一題特別預算已經協商完成共保留八案二保留的提案部分不會人可以繼續跟黨團保持溝通三現在有一個協商草案我們請工作人員發放來宣讀一下看大家的意見如何"},{"start":13931.926,"end":13949.408,"text":"好 這個協商結論各黨團幹部麻煩看一下我來宣讀一下協商主題延長中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟及社會及民生國安任性特別預算案相關事宜協商結論一協商通過內容及保留部分如後赴"},{"start":13950.169,"end":13971.357,"text":"於照聯席會議審查結果通過由財政委會整理送各黨團確認之後於10月14號星期四下午5點前送議事處2本案於院會進行處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分均"},{"start":13973.767,"end":13994.266,"text":"暫保留保留部分進行處理之前由台灣民眾黨團推派一位民進黨團推派一位國民黨團推派一位以上開黨團順序發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後各保留提案均不再發言即開始進行保留部分之表決"},{"start":13995.387,"end":14021.69,"text":"本案經二讀之內容請主席總處與財政委員會核對刪減項目及金額共願會進行三讀三 本案完成三讀之後由各黨團各推派一位進行三讀後發言本次協商各項提議均予以刊登公報記錄請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 請羅委員請發言"},{"start":14023.554,"end":14048.864,"text":"報告院長 因為我們今天還有2345的那個開會室友那我想說是不是有可能明天因為有些 校園裡面有些時效性的問題才化法的部分所以如果明天2345尤其第四個OK好 謝謝院長那我們現在先請問一下這個協商結論這個部分有沒有問題沒有問題請簽字好嗎好 總系長請發言"},{"start":14055.685,"end":14069.059,"text":"主席長不發言則一發言就是重點我們日習都寫錯了你看主席長 難逃主席長發言的趕快改好 謝謝主席長好 其他沒寶貴意見沒有 請簽字我們先一個人按一個人按來"},{"start":14121.089,"end":14122.574,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部簽好字了嗎"},{"start":14127.551,"end":14150.851,"text":"我們請繼續 第四個重點我們協商結論簽字之中 順 疑並要跟大家來報告本次協商還有其他的題目我們會定期協商 而且會盡快來處理到時候再通知各位黨團幹部非常感謝陳主席長 從頭到尾 養心辛苦你我們謝謝各位列席的官員 謝謝各位本院工作夥伴們我們現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}