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主委院長今天其實我們針對特別預算的部分那很多委員關切的大概是無人機的部分那我們還是要再提醒因為我們的國防預算相關的預算今年編列大概9,450億還剛通過了任性"},{"start":47.238,"end":71.746,"text":"預算其實跟國防相關的1100億其實已經上兆了我們這一次通過的軍售就是特別條例的部分這個是針對軍購的部分那也7800億所以不是刪掉4700億而是我們又增加了這7800億我們希望在有限的資源之下我們其實是可以把它做得更好剛剛部長有針對9000多億的國防預算的內容做了一些說明"},{"start":76.688,"end":87.981,"text":"我知道我說國防相關預算你把它列入這樣嘛這是你們自己說的所以我們不用去爭執那個大家都可以看得到我們現在看的是無人機的預算裡面"},{"start":91.204,"end":113.191,"text":"無人機預算我們在115年國防部仍然編列了將近120億這是公開的而且國防部的報告裡面也清楚載明所以政府不要把無人機說得好像特別條例它沒有過然後台灣就沒有無人機這樣是一個欺騙的一個說法因為這個"},{"start":115.816,"end":138.387,"text":"院長你聽我講完115年我們已經編了將近120億光是公開的資料我們可以看得出來無人機的預算是一層一層疊上去的首先海空戰力提升計畫建想無人機是119.8億現在還在進行中五大信賴產業推動方案有18.8億"},{"start":140.248,"end":147.73,"text":"因應高關稅特別條例又納入了64.9億經濟部無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫也規劃2025年到2030年投入442億115年度國防部無人機相關預算將近120億這還不包含機密預算研發預算還有各軍種分散編列的相關預算"},{"start":166.855,"end":193.317,"text":"那海巡還有其他部會的無人機跟反無人機系統其實也都有編列只是它是分散的剛剛我念的這些其實它的預算已經非常高在相關的年度預算裡面所以問題不是有沒有編錢而是錢花到哪裡去了國防部自己報告裡面也寫得很清楚持續執行高高空無人機系統這些相關的案子並且在"},{"start":193.817,"end":220.337,"text":"一般武器還有戰備支援裝備以及一般通電裝備裡面也編列了815億餘元這些相關的部分而且在國防先進科技研究計畫當中也把航空載具徵收匿蹤通訊防護AI智能這些也都納入研發的方向也就是說無人機反無人機AI"},{"start":221.158,"end":249.569,"text":"通訊鏈路這個本來就已經都放在年度預算裡面研發預算機密預算裡面交叉編列這些預算清清楚楚都是在我們的預算裡面我們的預算書裡面都是呈現出來的所以我剛剛念的預算已經好幾千億喔所以就這些部分我們要怎麼樣好好的落實去執行這個可能才是比較重要的而不是在特別預算裡面"},{"start":250.969,"end":268.277,"text":"這個相關的部分我們剛剛念的那些也就是所謂商售跟偽製的部分我們希望它可以好好的落實在每一個年度因為我們研發無人機的相關預算如果像中科院或國防部其實已經接近20年了"},{"start":269.657,"end":291.526,"text":"這些相關的成果還有歷年的預算其實已經非常的高所以它不是因為這4700億沒有然後我們就沒有無人機產業絕對不是剛剛經濟部也有各個部會也有已經編列很多所以委員是反對我們在研發製造進入到一個更長期更大量更穩定的民主公益的時代嗎我們要停留在現在這個階段我們要停留在公務製造的時代嗎我們就是需要大量長期"},{"start":299.409,"end":326.514,"text":"你要大量長期等一下我會給你看看當你超過一兆以上的國防相關預算我們歷年怎麼樣的成果如果你沒有辦法把這些好好的做好以後然後你再去增加你的預算如果過去只有幾千億我們都做不好或者沒有辦法如期如止的完成那你如果更多的預算我們會質疑我們完全沒有辦法使用而且在浪費納稅錢"},{"start":327.654,"end":348.489,"text":"我是有基礎委員啦對於潛艦對於五輪載具都是同樣的態度我是很了解啦潛艦院長不要把潛艦拿出來講那是所有軍事官兵要下水影響到他們的安全你今天不是你開口說這是可以的就可以他還沒有測試通過如果你測試通過"},{"start":349.81,"end":356.398,"text":"如果你有安全的一個實質的證據那你就要接受他的預算 那個我們沒有意見嗎如果沒有...院長"},{"start":364.887,"end":391.117,"text":"原型艦還沒有通過你後續艦是依據什麼做如果有國防相關的這些概念包括你的無人機我想國防部長站在旁邊他很清楚潛艦整個過程你一直強調安全非常重要你心裡很清楚這個是什麼樣的核心的一個價值今天如果你可以做得出來不僅要安全他還是要能打仗"},{"start":391.937,"end":409.377,"text":"你今天做的不是觀光船我們未來可以看支持跟鼓勵不代表可以縱放我們今天沒有預算你五百多億花掉了你現在是把那個成果應該要呈現在國人的"},{"start":410.698,"end":432.773,"text":"面前今天他要是安全的今天所有的官士兵下水以後如果他潛下去他要是安全的而且要能打仗這是基本原則在這裡我們要特別強調的是這個部分所以如果我們今天無人採資的部分我能不能說明一下好不好您剛第一個就提到那個建想他其實就是擺在特別預算這是第一個"},{"start":433.653,"end":449.141,"text":"這第一個 第二個您特別提到的高高空無人機這個預算案比較大就是MQ-9B那這個部分跟我們現在要編列的國防自主的無人機我覺得性質有很大的不同就我來講MQ-9B是我們跟美國來買的"},{"start":450.341,"end":456.484,"text":"我們一直有無人載具尤其是無人居的相關預算不管是過去對美採購也好我們自己研發也好我們自己軍規商用"},{"start":477.933,"end":491.127,"text":"軍規商用的我們採購的很多的無人機現在很多陸續在執行中而且年度預算也有我們講的不是這個性質的差異為無人機它本來差異就很它本來就有它使用的不同的那一邊"},{"start":493.329,"end":507.416,"text":"國防自主的無人載具的重要性跟MQ-9V不一樣我只在說明這一點還有剛剛您提到國防運算國防運算剛剛黃安祥委員已經幫我們算出來連同這一次我們編的特定運算八億總共就是八千而已並沒有您講的這個金額"},{"start":511.038,"end":525.467,"text":"那個因為是你們對外說你是九千五百四十億九千五百就是含所有的含所有的那是你們對美方交代的不管你要八千多億也好六千多億都沒有關係反正他就是"},{"start":526.187,"end":551.745,"text":"列在國防預算裡面我們今天買的如果是五年以後八年以後十年以後甚至十五年以後才可能形成戰力的系統憑什麼把它放進戰備急需這真正的戰備急需照理說應該是三個月六個月或甚至一年內能形成戰力的項目這是我們要說它的差異性剛剛我說的是公開預算裡面我們在各個部會其實就編列那麼多"},{"start":552.225,"end":577.405,"text":"那你在特別預算裡面我們希望它是即時形成戰力而不是拿來研發用也不是拿來做測試用因為它沒有經過相關的驗證我剛剛念的這些其實它在公務預算裡面有編了那我們應該即時形成的這個是形成的集戰力這個我們希望是大家應該要共同去努力的一個方向有國防制組才有集戰力有什麼"},{"start":581.008,"end":602.561,"text":"有國防自主的產業鏈國防自主有很多啊你們的永英號延盪你們的潛艦延盪你們的很多無人機我們無人機不是沒有研發無人機我們從大型到小型我們從騰雲 尖濱 紅雀還有很多相關的無人機我們都做過研發我們也做過採購"},{"start":605.103,"end":619.796,"text":"如果扣掉我們剛剛講的建翔跟那個荒寨特別預算跟MQ-9B你如果來看的話從110年來看一直到114年花在這個無人機上面的預算其實是很少的很少"},{"start":620.676,"end":626.363,"text":"對 不多 因為你剛剛提到的MQ-9V就占了 譬如說104年 MQ-9V就占了104億我們買 我們僅只買四架然後它的價格多少 一架40億"},{"start":638.496,"end":653.271,"text":"我們是高於其他國家的金額在採購我們要建構的不是這樣子的無人機我們要建構就是一個能夠國防自主的一個具有產業鏈你才剛買然後你說我們不是要這樣的無人機我們現在要說的是我現在說發展國防"},{"start":655.393,"end":670.011,"text":"供應鏈的這種無人機不是那一種MQ-9可是你剛剛我們鏈的已經什麼都有我剛剛講給你聽的是我們從高高空我們攻擊型然後我們包括對美採購的MQ-9還包括你這次在特別預算裡面買的Artis 600"},{"start":672.493,"end":699.546,"text":"這些相關的你們買了很多我們現在要的是它的成果到底是什麼包括我們之前買的我們驗證不過的反無人機系統這已經長達兩三年以上的時間我們還沒有驗測通過這也是買的啊然後你在其他的我們在去年前年買的它的成效都不髒所以就這些幾個我們希望可以做的有一個部長最大的差異是部長一直在強調我們自主研發的能量要增加"},{"start":700.126,"end":717.625,"text":"要應付未來長期大量的需求所以我們支持院長我們支持所以我們希望放在我們的年度預算因為你如果要研發你要國防自主它不是放在特別預算我一直強調特別預算它是因應"},{"start":718.366,"end":731.683,"text":"我們緊急狀況你在三個月六個月一年可以形成集戰力可以馬上買到我們成熟的產品我覺得很好你可以分年買也沒有關係可是不是拿來研發這是我們再次強調的平常我們現在"},{"start":734.486,"end":739.33,"text":"我們也有相當長時間這個已經通過了我想你在這裡討論這個比較沒有必要第四個問題我們無人機到底是建軍還是買回來再驗證這個當然就是我們典型無人機在"},{"start":751.28,"end":774.913,"text":"雖然我們現在一直剛剛院長跟部長都講國防自主任及國家隊可是我們真正去看他採購的內容其實問題是比較嚴重的我們就來談這一次在我們這個特別預算裡面所謂的ARTIS 600的這個部分我們同樣在這個預算裡面其實我們也買了彈簧刀300"},{"start":776.394,"end":791.099,"text":"ARTIS 600就是所謂的彈簧刀600我們的彈簧刀300今年延宕沒有辦法交貨可是ARTIS 600它是如期它是所有的我們對外採購裡面最準時交貨的"},{"start":792.84,"end":817.217,"text":"這個我想大家去細想他的原因可是我們現在要來談的就是說他在美軍體系裡面他本來就還是在測試驗證還有概念運用的這樣的階段包括他的練步整合還有作戰概念的驗證實戰的穩定性都還在持續的調整也不是成熟的大規模的部署系統可是台灣卻直接大量部署在我們的"},{"start":818.058,"end":842.844,"text":"我們的運用上面我們之前已經編了55億就是我剛剛講的台灣刀300跟這個Artist600我們已經花了55億可是我們很迅速的在這一次的特別預算裡面又編了好幾百億要採購這個部分剛剛提到連美國其實他都還在驗證的階段所以我們到底要部署的是什麼樣的一個無人機載具怎麼樣讓我們的"},{"start":844.684,"end":868.856,"text":"戰力可以提升這個是我們要探討的我們現在來看一下相關的因為大家一直在尤其院長跟部長昨天我們也有探討過我們一直在講我們可以心平氣和的講我們今天如果要讓我們的國防戰力提升有很多我們沒有辦法在預算的期程之內完成的我們要怎麼樣去強化"},{"start":869.696,"end":892.449,"text":"我們可以來看一下我們現在重要的武器軍售的部分這光是這個對美採購的部分復仇者系統材料件回修這個發價書還沒有取得我們都已經在編列預算甚至有的超過一年兩年三年陸軍飛彩零附件的合約這個也還沒有拿到發價書脫勢飛彈"},{"start":895.951,"end":921.682,"text":"目標獲得系統的回修也還沒有獲得發價書AH-641直升機零附件採購也還沒有獲得美方的發價書標槍飛彈系統週期支援服務這個也還沒有拿到發價書這些都是我們重要的武器裝備而且他的零附件對於他的安全性妥善率都有非常重要的一個方向可是"},{"start":922.262,"end":930.785,"text":"這些發酵素我們年年變預算他到現在還沒有拿到我們再來看看接下來還有的就是我們其他自己"},{"start":963.316,"end":963.336,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:40:59.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:00.602000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T16:41:00.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:00.902000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:41:13.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:13.444000+08:00","text":"馬委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:41:13.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:14.164000+08:00","text":"卓院長午安。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:41:14.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:55.665000+08:00","text":"卓院長，今天是針對特別預算的部分，很多委員關切的大概是無人機的部分，我們還是要再提醒，因為我們國防的相關預算今年編列約9,450億，剛通過的韌性預算跟國防相關的也有1,100億，所以其實已經上兆了，我們這一次通過的特別條例是針對軍購部分，也有7,800億，所以不是刪掉4,700億，而是我們又增加了這7,800億，我們希望在有限的資源下，其實是可以把它做得更好，我們就這個部分……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:41:56.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:41:57.726000+08:00","text":"馬委員，剛剛部長有針對九千多億國防預算的內容做了一些說明……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:02.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:03.268000+08:00","text":"沒關係，那個我知道……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:03.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:04.268000+08:00","text":"委員應該清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:03.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:13.080000+08:00","text":"我是說國防相關預算，你把它列入這樣嘛，這是你們自己說的，所以我們不用去爭執，那個大家都可以看得到，我們現在看的是……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:13.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:17.204000+08:00","text":"但是那個九千多億是已經包括了特別預算。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:17.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:39.191000+08:00","text":"無人機預算，國防部在115年仍編列了將近120億，這是公開的，而且國防部的報告中也清楚載明，所以政府不要把無人機說的好像特別條例沒有過臺灣就沒有無人機，這樣是一個欺騙的說法，因為這個……不是！不是！","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:41.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:45.058000+08:00","text":"院長，你聽我講完……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:46.058000+08:00","text":"不是，你講到欺騙，總要讓我們講不是欺騙啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:45.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:42:53.822000+08:00","text":"115年我們已經編列將近120億，光是從公開的資料就可以看得出來，無人機的預算是一層一層疊上去的。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:42:54.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:43:40.842000+08:00","text":"首先是海空戰力提升計畫，劍翔無人機系統是119.8億，現在還在執行中；五大信賴產業推動方案有18.8億；因應高關稅特別條例又納入64.9億；經濟部無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫也規劃從2025年到2030年投入442億；115年度國防部無人機相關預算將近120億，這還不包含機密預算、研發預算，還有各軍種分散編列的相關預算；海巡及其他部會的無人機跟反無人機系統其實也都有編列，只是它是分散的。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:43:41.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:43:50.730000+08:00","text":"剛剛我唸的這一些，其實它的預算已經非常高，在相關的年度預算裡面，所以問題不是有沒有編錢，而是錢花到哪裡去了。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:43:51.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:44:08.484000+08:00","text":"國防部在自己的報告中也寫的很清楚，持續執行高高空無人機系統相關案子，並且在一般武器、戰備資源裝備以及一般通電裝備裡面也編列八百十五億餘元。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:44:09.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:44:42.724000+08:00","text":"除了這些相關部分，在國防先進科技研究計畫當中，也把航空載具、偵蒐匿蹤、通訊防護、AI智能等都納入研發的方向，也就是說，無人機、反無人機、AI、通訊鏈路，本來就已經都放在年度預算、研發預算及機密預算裡面交叉編列，這些預算清清楚楚都在預算裡面，我們的預算書都有呈現出來。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:44:43.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:07.113000+08:00","text":"我剛剛唸的預算已經好幾千億了喔，就這些部分，我們要怎麼樣好好地落實去執行，這個可能才是比較重要的，而不是在特別預算裡面的相關部分……我剛剛唸的那些就是所謂的商售跟委製的部分，我們希望他可以好好的落實在每一個年度。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:07.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:24.381000+08:00","text":"因為我們研發無人機的相關預算，像中科院或國防部，其實已經編列接近20年了，這些相關的成果還有歷年的預算其實已經非常的高，所以不是因為沒有這4,700億，然後我們就沒有無人機產業，絕對不是。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:25.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:27.482000+08:00","text":"剛剛經濟部也有、各個部會也有，已經編列很多……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:28.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:34.825000+08:00","text":"所以委員是反對我們在研發、製造進入到一個更長期、更大量、更穩定的民主供應鏈時代嗎？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:34.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:35.825000+08:00","text":"院長，你沒有認真聽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:34.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:35.545000+08:00","text":"我們要停留在現在這個階段……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:35.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:36.545000+08:00","text":"院長，你沒有認真聽，我們現在我剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:35.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:36.906000+08:00","text":"我們要停留在公務預算的時代嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:36.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:37.506000+08:00","text":"我們就是需要大量、長期……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:45.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:56.411000+08:00","text":"院長，你沒有認真聽，我剛剛說的這個是115……你要大量、長期，等一下我會給你看看，當你超過1兆以上的國防相關預算，我們歷年是什麼樣的成果，如果你沒有辦法……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:56.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:45:57.411000+08:00","text":"你這種講法是不正確的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:45:56.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:12.514000+08:00","text":"把這些好好的做好以後，然後你再去增加你的預算，如果過去只有幾千億我們都做不好，或者沒有辦法如期、如質的完成，那你如果編列更多的預算，我們會質疑你們完全沒有辦法使用，而且在浪費納稅錢，等一下我們會給大家看到。另外……","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:13.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:18.978000+08:00","text":"我是很清楚委員對於潛艦、對於無人載具都是同樣的態度，我是很了解。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:18.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:21.360000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下……潛艦？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:21.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:41.537000+08:00","text":"院長，不要把潛艦拿出來講，那是影響到所有要下水的軍士官兵的安全，今天不是你開口說這是可以的就可以，它還沒有測試通過，如果你測試通過，如果你有一個安全的、實質的證據，那你就接受他的預算，那個我們沒有意見啊！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:41.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:42.297000+08:00","text":"如果沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:42.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:43.297000+08:00","text":"國防部跟台船多少同仁辛辛苦苦在為這個潛艦拚命，你卻一再地把它……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:42.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:46:55.309000+08:00","text":"如果有人犧牲，院長，原型艦還沒有通過，你後續艦是依據什麼做？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:46:55.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:04.552000+08:00","text":"如果有國防相關的這些概念，包括你的無人機，我想國防部長站在旁邊，他很清楚潛艦整個過程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:05.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:19.419000+08:00","text":"你一直強調安全非常重要，你心裡很清楚這是什麼樣的一個核心價值，今天如果你可以做得出來，不僅要安全，它還要能打仗，你今天做的不是觀光船。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:20.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:22.262000+08:00","text":"院長，我們未來可以看……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:22.262000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:23.262000+08:00","text":"所以要請委員多多支持跟鼓勵啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:22.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:24.685000+08:00","text":"支持跟鼓勵不代表可以縱放……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:24.685000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:25.685000+08:00","text":"沒有要你縱放，我都不能縱放，你怎麼可以縱放。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:25.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:36.998000+08:00","text":"我們今天沒有……你今天沒有預算耶，你五百多億花掉了耶，你現在是應該要把那個成果呈現在國人的面前。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:37.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:51.348000+08:00","text":"今天它要是安全的，今天所有的官士兵下水以後，如果它潛下去，它要是安全的，而且要能打仗，這是基本原則，在這裡我們要特別強調的是這個部分，所以如果我們今天……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:51.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:54.230000+08:00","text":"委員，就無人載具的部分，我能不能說明一下好不好？好。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:47:54.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:47:58.773000+08:00","text":"您剛剛第一個提到的劍翔，它其實就是擺在特別預算，這是第一個。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:00.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:00.614000+08:00","text":"第二個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:00.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:01.614000+08:00","text":"我知道，所以特別預算已經有了還在執行……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:00.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:15.121000+08:00","text":"您特別提到的高高空無人機，這個預算案比較大，就是MQ-9B，這個部分跟我們現在要編列的國防自主的無人機，我覺得性質有很大的不同，就我來講，MQ-9B是我們跟美國買，它不會創建我們的國防自主產業，因為一架飛機就非常的高單價……","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:15.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:16.121000+08:00","text":"對，好，部長，我們今天沒有很多時間去解釋這個部分，我剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:16.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:17.121000+08:00","text":"我們現在要建造的是一個具有長單規模、能夠創建國防自主的無人機產業鏈……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:17.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:18.121000+08:00","text":"部長、部長，我知道，你聽我講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:16.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:48:56.827000+08:00","text":"我剛剛唸的是我們過去到現在，我們一直有無人載具，尤其是無人機的相關預算，不管是過去對美採購也好，我們自己研發也好，我們自己軍規商用的、我們採購的很多無人機，現在很多陸續在執行中，而且年度預算也有，我們講的不是性質的差異，因為無人機本來差異就很……本來就有它使用的不同的類別，所以……","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:48:59.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:06.253000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，所以我只是要說明，國防自主無人載具的重要性跟MQ-9B不一樣，我只是在說明這一點。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:06.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:07.833000+08:00","text":"還有剛剛您提到國防預算……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:07.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:08.833000+08:00","text":"好，部長，我想不用特別……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:08.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:12.116000+08:00","text":"國防預算剛剛王安祥委員已經幫我們算出來，連同這一次我們編的特別預算88億元……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:12.116000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:13.116000+08:00","text":"部長，我沒有要算國防預算，因為我們的時間很有限。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:12.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:13.416000+08:00","text":"總共就是八千多億，並沒有您講的這個金額。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:17.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:21.701000+08:00","text":"部長，因為是你們對外說是9,540億嘛，9,450億……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:22.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:24.142000+08:00","text":"9,500億就是說含所有的，含所有的……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:24.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:26.264000+08:00","text":"對，那是你們對美方交代的……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:26.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:27.264000+08:00","text":"那你現在說又再加上去，沒有，沒有再加上去嘛，只有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:26.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:33.348000+08:00","text":"不管你要八千多億也好，還是六千多億都沒有關係，反正它就是列在國防預算裡面。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:34.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:44.055000+08:00","text":"我們今天買的如果是5年以後、8年以後、10年以後甚至15年以後才可能形成戰力的系統，憑什麼把它放進戰備急需？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:44.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:49:53.322000+08:00","text":"真正的戰備急需照理說應該是3個月、6個月或是甚至1年內能形成戰力的項目，這是我們要說它的差異性。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:49:53.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:07.553000+08:00","text":"剛剛我說的是公開預算裡面，我們在各個部會其實就編列那麼多，那你在特別預算裡面，我們希望它是即時形成戰力，而不是拿來研發用，也不是拿來做測試用，因為它沒有經過相關的驗證。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:07.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:22.304000+08:00","text":"我剛剛唸的這些其實在公務預算裡面有編了，我們應該即時形成的即戰力，我們希望這是大家應該要共同去努力的方向。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:22.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:23.304000+08:00","text":"我們先來看看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:22.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:23.225000+08:00","text":"有國防自主才有即戰力、有國防自主才會有即戰力。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:23.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:23.405000+08:00","text":"有什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:27.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:29.189000+08:00","text":"有國防自主的產業鏈就會有即戰力。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:29.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:33.712000+08:00","text":"國防自主有很多，你們的勇鷹號延宕、你們的潛艦延宕。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:33.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:35.834000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得無人機的產業鏈……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:35.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:50:48.561000+08:00","text":"你們的很多無人機，我們不是沒有研發無人機，我們從大型到小型，從騰雲、尖兵、紅雀，還有很多相關的無人機，我們都做過研發，我們也做過採購。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:50:51.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:05.776000+08:00","text":"如果扣掉您剛剛講的劍翔跟那個放在特別預算跟MQ-9B，你如果來看的話，從110年來看，一直到114年，花在無人機上面的預算其實是很少的。很少？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:06.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:09.640000+08:00","text":"對，不多，因為你剛剛提到的MQ-9B就占了……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:09.640000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:10.640000+08:00","text":"部長，我們先來討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:09.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:10.361000+08:00","text":"比如說104年MQ-9B就占了104億。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:10.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:11.021000+08:00","text":"MQ-9B我們只買4架。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:11.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:12.021000+08:00","text":"對，你看它這麼貴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:11.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:12.002000+08:00","text":"然後它的價格是多少？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:12.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:13.002000+08:00","text":"一架40億。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:12.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:27.940000+08:00","text":"一架40億，我們是高於其他國家的金額在採購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:27.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:31.323000+08:00","text":"我們要建構的就不是這樣子的無人機。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:31.323000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:32.323000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，部長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:31.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:34.686000+08:00","text":"我們要建構的就是一個能夠國防自主的、具有產業鏈的無人機。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:34.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:38.690000+08:00","text":"你才剛買，然後你說我們不是要這樣的無人機，我們現在要說的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:38.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:43.836000+08:00","text":"不是，我現在是說發展國防供應鏈的這種無人機，不是那一種MQ-9B。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:43.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:51:44.836000+08:00","text":"我們支持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:51:44.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:04.096000+08:00","text":"可是剛剛我們唸的已經什麼都有，我剛剛講給你聽的是我們從高高空、攻擊型，然後包括對美採購的MQ-9B，還包括你這次在特別預算裡面買的ALTIUS-600，這些相關的你們買了很多，我們現在要的是，它的成果到底是什麼？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:04.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:13.860000+08:00","text":"包括我們之前買的我們驗證不過的反無人機系統，已經長達兩、三年以上的時間，我們還沒有驗測通過，這也是買的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:14.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:20.523000+08:00","text":"然後你在其他的……我們在去年、前年買的，它的成效都不彰，所以就這些……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:21.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:28.409000+08:00","text":"委員，你跟部長最大的差異是，部長一直在強調我們自主研發的能量要增加，要應付未來長期、大量的需求，跟買的這個不一樣。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:29.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:32.233000+08:00","text":"所以我們支持，院長，我們支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:32.233000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:33.233000+08:00","text":"支持就不要把預算全部拿掉嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:32.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:57.202000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望放在年度預算，因為你如果要研發，你要國防自主，它不是放在特別預算，我一直強調，特別預算是因應我們緊急狀況，你在三個月、六個月、一年可以形成即戰力，可以馬上買到成熟的產品，我覺得很好，你可以分年買也沒有關係，可是不是拿來研發，這是我們再次強調的。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:57.202000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:52:58.202000+08:00","text":"這次的特別條例我們也有相當的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:52:57.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:53:01.307000+08:00","text":"平常……我們現在……這個已經通過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:53:01.307000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:53:02.307000+08:00","text":"這個就是戰力堆疊的必要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:53:01.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:53:02.788000+08:00","text":"我想你在這裡討論這個比較沒有必要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:53:02.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:53:03.788000+08:00","text":"這個是戰力不斷的堆疊嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:53:02.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:53:35.270000+08:00","text":"第四個問題，我們無人機到底是建軍還是買回來再驗證，這個當然就是我們典型無人機在……雖然我們現在一直……剛剛院長跟部長都講國防自主、無人機國家隊，可是我們真正去看採購的內容，其實問題是比較嚴重的，我們就來談這一次在我們這個特別預算裡面所謂的ALTIUS-600這個部分。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:53:36.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:54:00.681000+08:00","text":"同樣在這個預算裡面，其實我們也買了彈簧刀300，ALTIUS-600其實就是所謂的彈簧刀600，我們的彈簧刀300今年延宕沒有辦法交貨，可是ALTIUS-600是如期，它是所有我們對外採購裡面最準時交貨的，我想大家可以去細想它的原因。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:54:00.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:54:48.023000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在要來談的是，在美軍體系裡面，它本來就還是在測試驗證還有概念運用這樣的階段，包括它的鏈路整合還有作戰概念的驗證、實戰的穩定性都還在持續的調整，也不是成熟的、大規模的部署系統，可是臺灣卻直接大量部署在我們的運用上面，我們之前已經編了55億，就是我剛剛講的彈簧刀300跟ALTIUS-600，我們已經花了55億，可是我們很迅速的在這一次的特別預算裡面，又編了好幾百億要採購這個部分，剛剛提到連美國都還在驗證的階段，所以我們到底要部署的是什麼樣的無人機載具？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:54:48.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:54:51.305000+08:00","text":"怎麼樣讓我們的戰力可以提升？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:54:51.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:54:52.625000+08:00","text":"這個是我們要探討的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:54:52.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:55:14.836000+08:00","text":"我們現在來看一下相關的，因為大家一直，尤其院長和部長……昨天我們也有探討過，我們一直在講，我們可以心平氣和的講，今天如果要讓我們的國防戰力提升，有很多沒有辦法在預算的期程之內完成的，我們要怎麼樣去強化？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:55:15.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T16:56:11.843000+08:00","text":"我們可以來看一下現在重要的武器軍售部分，光是對美採購的部分，復仇者系統材料件回修發價書還沒有取得，我們都已經在編列預算了，甚至有的超過一年、兩年、三年；陸軍飛材零附件合約也還沒有拿到發價書；拖式飛彈目標獲得系統回修也還沒有獲得發價書；AH-64E直昇機零附件採購也還沒有獲得美方的發價書；標槍飛彈系統週期支援服務也還沒有拿到發價書；這些都是我們重要的武器裝備，而且它的零附件對於安全性、妥善率都有非常重要的方向，可是這些發價書，我們年年編預算，到現在都還沒有拿到。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:56:12.343000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:56:33.771571+08:00","text":"我們再來看看接下來還有自己國內產製的，國內的工程至少有一、二十項沒有如期完成，包括M1A2戰車，車都已經來了，可是到現在訓練場都還沒有完成，而且一直在延宕，至少有十幾個。","quality":0.16},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-05-20T16:56:34.071571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:56:48.357286+08:00","text":"所以我們希望先把落後的補上來，然後未來的預算一步一步到位，讓我們的預算用在刀口上，也增加我們實際的戰力，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T16:56:48.657286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:56:51.514429+08:00","text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T16:56:51.814429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:57:01.814429+08:00","text":"我想我們就要審總預算了，我們再跟委員多多請教，但是我想不會因為委員問的問題……","quality":0.086},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T16:57:02.114429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:57:05.828714+08:00","text":"謝謝卓院長、國防部長備詢，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T16:57:06.128714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:57:10.128714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請李坤城委員，請質詢。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T16:57:10.428714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T16:57:12.714429+08:00","text":"林沛祥委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}