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王定宇委員請準備好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長跟顧部長麻煩再請卓院長 國防部長備選林委員好"},{"start":29.69,"end":46.587,"text":"左院長、顧部長、各位國安高層跟全國現在正在看這場諮詢的好朋友今天我要談的不只是軍購而是台灣到底有沒有準備好面對未來的戰爭因為戰爭不是買東西戰爭是整個國家生存能力的考驗"},{"start":47.688,"end":69.265,"text":"那今天行政院提出的有關第一批發價書的採購總金額接近三千億包括海馬仕系統M1動99A7自走砲標槍飛彈TOW托式飛彈反甲型無人機等我先要講我支持國防我支持強化國軍我也支持保衛中華民國"},{"start":70.253,"end":89.934,"text":"但是真正負責任的立法院不是看到抗中保台四個字就直接通過而是要替人民問這些武器到底有沒有用值不值得 是不適合台灣是不是真的能夠撐過戰爭而能不能保護人民的生命安全因為納稅人的錢不是政治口號"},{"start":91.115,"end":109.194,"text":"而是我們人民辛苦的血汗錢今天我要從軍事戰略國安質疑跟現代戰爭三個角度來請教院長跟部長來幾個非常核心的問題第一個問題我們到底是在建立豪豬還是在買高級展示品"},{"start":110.175,"end":114.702,"text":"這次軍購的最核心項目就是海馬仕系統82號4320枚精準火箭420枚ATA CMS戰術飛彈總價高達1597億"},{"start":124.801,"end":152.199,"text":"事實上海馬士沒有不好他是目前全球最成功的遠程精準打擊系統之一烏克蘭戰爭也證明說哈馬斯的確也具備高精準高機動力高殺傷能力但是問題在於台灣真的有忍能力讓他活下來嗎我要請教國防部你們有沒有做過完整的兵推因為到目前為止不管從軍事專家還是各方智庫都說一旦兩岸開戰"},{"start":153.3,"end":182.219,"text":"共軍的第一波一定是衛星徵收無人機搜查電池定位飽和飛彈打擊網路跟通訊癱瘓請問台灣西部平原這麼小海馬市打完之後能躲去哪裡有多少地下化的機動陣地有多少後備油料有多少分散式的彈藥庫有多少甲車跟誘餌有多少地下維修設施還是現在的規劃是希望海馬市打完一輪之後靠運氣"},{"start":183.58,"end":208.991,"text":"請教部長跟委員報告第一個我想我們這個條例就叫做不對稱戰例我也可以跟委員報告如果沒有合乎不對稱戰例的這個要件的話其實美國政府他會有所遲疑美國政府跟我們經過這樣兩年的磋商他提出的這些案項都是認為符合不對稱戰例那不對稱戰例有一個特色就是"},{"start":209.727,"end":234.48,"text":"一定要能夠激動引力然後具有您剛剛提到的相關的致命性的火力海馬式的一個遠程性它可以做跨區的增援並且它可以同時淡著它可以做分散部署所以在這樣的一個情況之下它是完全合乎我們現在所面對這個共軍可能的全面入侵"},{"start":235.28,"end":262.953,"text":"這情況之下我們的一個不貼身戰力的建構的一個所有的元素好 謝謝那請問院長 俄烏戰爭已經證明一件事情現代戰場上不是武器先進就一定能夠存活如果缺乏生存能力 偽裝能力分散部署 戰場機動再昂貴的武器都可能在幾天內被系統性摧毀尤其台灣不像烏克蘭有巨大的縱深台灣真正的問題是空間太小"},{"start":263.473,"end":289.405,"text":"所以我今天要質疑的是我們到底是現在在建立豪豬戰略還是在買一批昂貴、醒目、容易被獵殺的高價目標呢?更重要的是我們現在買的是發射器但是真正決定戰力的其實是彈藥儲量、補給能力、暫時持續生產能力那順便我是要務部長想要回答那請問國防部如果戰爭超過兩週我們有多少精準彈藥?"},{"start":290.345,"end":308.469,"text":"還是現在的戰略是希望說建立在戰爭很快就結束呢委員剛剛提到的那個作戰持續力是一個非常好的一個意見那可是我們這一次在特別條例提出來的我們的彈藥的一個戰備的生產量我們要擴張14條產線將我們的戰備存量提高到120天這個被刪掉了這個被刪掉了"},{"start":317.671,"end":334.919,"text":"所以相關的這些我們的彈藥不但是要增加它的產線我們也要能夠分散然後我們也要在這些相關的這些所有的持續的這個量你們要做好另外您剛提到偽裝"},{"start":336.48,"end":362.426,"text":"甚至欺敵這個都在我們規劃的範圍之內部長跟院長報告因為老實講很多時候我們的劇本戰爭真的戰爭從來不照劇本走如果一卸照劇本走的話這個每一戰爭或是每一特別軍事行動應該在一個禮拜甚至十天之內就會解決不過現在已經撐了超過三個月以上所以說我會覺得比較擔心說我們有沒有做好準備"},{"start":363.166,"end":386.503,"text":"那第二個問題就是我們剛剛加到的,第二個問題,不好意思時間不太夠第二個問題,M109A7真的符合台灣的不對稱作戰嗎?這是我們採購60門的這個自走砲,總價是806億元,平均一門超過13億元那我要請問院長,台灣真的適合投入這麼高比例的重型自走砲嗎?"},{"start":389.305,"end":405.935,"text":"剛剛部長說過了我們在跟美方洽談這樣的武器供應的時候不對稱戰力是一個非常關鍵的思考不好意思 院長請讓我先把話講完好不好因為老實講就是後面要去講的因為這個武器好像跟我們不稱稱作戰好像有一點差距它先進"},{"start":406.795,"end":426.75,"text":"他具有數位化快速射擊精準火控網路化作戰能力但是問題還是回來台灣不是烏克蘭我們沒有廣大的縱深我們沒有長時間的轉移空間我們也沒有遼闊的平原一旦共軍獲得去局部的制空這些大型裝備的生存能力到底有多少"},{"start":427.31,"end":453.586,"text":"那我也要請教國防部有沒有評估說暫時的轉移能力、隱蔽能力、地下隱蔽能力被無人機獵殺的風險因為在俄烏戰爭現在已經出現大量案例一台幾億的裝甲車被幾十萬的FPV無人機摧毀所以請問我們現在建軍方向真的有吸取現在戰爭的這些教訓嗎還是我們停留在大型重裝備等於戰力的舊時代思維呢"},{"start":455.707,"end":480.098,"text":"我想這個是要兼顧的我想您剛剛提到無人機確實也是一個非常重要的一個戰力那相對來講反制無人機也是一個很重要的戰力所以對於部隊提供反制無人機的一個力量這就是我們現在要規劃建制的也就是說對於無人機的攻擊我們假設能夠進行反制那就能夠保護整個部隊的安全"},{"start":480.678,"end":488.017,"text":"那這個您提到MVL-9A7您剛剛已經提到了它相關的這些能力那包括它的射程也"},{"start":489.172,"end":505.418,"text":"涵蓋了30公里以上的精準打擊能力所以像這樣子跟海馬士做一個匹配的話他特別在M127A7是在這個反登陸作戰的時候他會提供這樣子的一個比我們現有的這些我們現在的這個A2我們現有的這些牽引砲我們這些要來的"},{"start":512.338,"end":525.416,"text":"就是它的射程精準跟它的自動化射擊的能力跟它的GPS定位跟數位化質感這個都是我們要引進的一個理由因為如果我們不引進這樣子的部分的話我們的這個"},{"start":527.769,"end":551.02,"text":"砲兵還是一個重要的關鍵戰力可是它會停留在幾十年前這樣子的一個情況之下所以比較引進這個比較先進那當然對於無人機的反制也是一個重要的課題跟部長分享啦我老實講對於所謂的不對稱作戰核心從來都不是貴而是便宜難抓打不完如果我們今天把部分預算投入在機動碰砲就會水雷"},{"start":556.042,"end":583.902,"text":"還有機動反艦飛彈那是不是更符合我們台灣的需求因為我一直認為說台灣的真正決戰點其實應該在海峽而不是在敵人上岸之後才開始苦戰這是我這樣認為的我想我們一個削弱戰略的一個指導的好像我們從對岸的集結到渡海到濱海到短登陸一直到仲聖都是我們現在所有在演練的範圍之內"},{"start":584.642,"end":607.259,"text":"那第三個問題我想請教應該還是請教院長或部長就是說國安標準就是有關這個買軍購的國安標準為什麼對內特別嚴格那對外特別寬鬆呢我有一個蠻重要的問題想要請教院長目前我們國軍尤其是中科院在採購國防通信資訊電子系統的時候都明確要求"},{"start":608.339,"end":629.728,"text":"設備跟零組件不得使用中國大陸及港澳產製產品那我要請教院長原因應該會是涉及國安、涉及資安、涉及通訊安全、涉及後門風險那如果是這樣的話我就不太能理解政府對國內的廠商要求這麼嚴格那為什麼美國對台軍售案我們沒有要求美方也比照辦理"},{"start":630.808,"end":652.63,"text":"因為如果今天國內廠商用了陸制零件,政府說這叫國安風險,但是如果在美國軍售裝備裡面若存在中國制零組件的可能,那我們卻完全不敢要求揭露或檢驗,那麼人民當然會問我們是不是真的重視國安,還是我們只是用這套標準來要求我們台灣自己的廠商呢?"},{"start":654.13,"end":667.488,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想這個資安的這個要求在軍規上面的武器上面他的要求程度是特別高的所以美國在提供他一個軍售的方面"},{"start":668.058,"end":687.936,"text":"他整體在這個資安的這個要求上面我想絕對不會忽視這樣的一個資安的要求現在可能就要繼續問下去應該本來要問院長 接下來部長想答我們繼續問下去美方的資安要求 委員您拿到的確他會低於我們嗎"},{"start":689.037,"end":711.469,"text":"目前美國提供給台灣的軍售裝備相關的供應鏈跟零組件來源國防部是否有完整掌握能不能保證完全不存在中國製的零組件風險尤其是現在有很多軍用的零件那全球供應鏈高度複雜請問國防部是否有建立原產地查核機制 韌體安全檢驗"},{"start":717.755,"end":731.089,"text":"台灣今天存在最重要的就是我們可以在非紅化供應鏈當中佔領重要的一席之地也有靠我們的研發製造能力我們才能早日幫我們的有門國家一起去掉這個"},{"start":732.091,"end":749.114,"text":"紅色供應鏈目前他可能還有一些是必須的喔那現在我們及早把它去掉這個紅色供應鏈進入到民主供應鏈的完整的時代那台灣就必須在掌握這個契機嘛我會認為說其實與其說在一直在做保證倒不如說我們應該好好建立這個制度啦"},{"start":749.591,"end":755.078,"text":"那我這邊提出三點具體的建議我提出三點具體的建議第一點全面地下化彈藥庫跟機動的陣地今天最怕的其實不是武器不夠先進而是說怕說什麼開戰第一波就掛掉"},{"start":769.375,"end":790.136,"text":"高價武器如果沒有地下化、分散化、備援化那就只是昂貴的煙火那我要求國防部全面盤點地下化油庫、地下化彈藥庫、備援機動陣地、暫時偽裝設施因為真正的現代戰爭第一件事情不是射飛彈,而是找目標誰藏得久誰才打得久"},{"start":790.737,"end":814.451,"text":"第二,建立暫時快速量產體系,台灣不能永遠只會買武器,真正的國防任性是要自己能生武器,包括飛彈零件、通訊設備、電站模組、衛星通訊備援,都必須建立在民間跟暫時的量產能力,所以不然一旦被封鎖、補給中斷,我們買再多軍購都只是一次性消耗品。"},{"start":815.071,"end":830.757,"text":"我知道我們都沒談到無人機可是我老實說我們去不去把STARLAND或STARSHIELD這種低軌道衛星的設備轉變進來而是我們現在還是用英國那個OPEN WEB我如果記得OPEN WEB還是OPEN WEB那個系統是環不濟急的"},{"start":834.218,"end":850.942,"text":"那我認為說其實如果我們一旦被封鎖補給中斷,買再多軍購都是一次消耗品我認為未來真正重要的不是平時庫存多少,而是暫時每個月能生產多少第三個,我剛剛部長說要成立專案辦公室所以說應該會建立一個非紅供應鏈的國防採購標準對吧"},{"start":854.523,"end":875.136,"text":"那既然政府已經要求國內廠商不得使用中國大陸跟港澳製零組件那麼對台所有的軍售案也應該採取相同的標準國防不是嘴巴喊抗中但是供應鏈卻還在依賴紅色零件真正最重要的不是只有武器的名稱而是晶片從哪裡來"},{"start":877.298,"end":902.217,"text":"通訊模組誰生產電子元件誰供貨軟體、韌體誰維護因為未來戰爭打的不是只有飛彈還有資安、後門、電池滲透、供應鏈控制所以說我在這邊要要求國防部全力建立軍購的非紅供應鏈審查制度剛剛講專案辦公室應該可以做得到這一點不分國內外廠商一律採同樣的標準"},{"start":903.138,"end":928.443,"text":"最後啦就老師說真正愛國的人不會只問買多少武器而是會問這些武器是不是真的能保護到人民今天立法院監督軍購不是反對國防恰恰相反因為我們在乎中華民國的安全所以才必須幫人民買一分納稅錢問清楚查明白謝謝所以請委員能夠支持非紅供應鏈的國防自主產量謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:13:48.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:13:48.369000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:13:49.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:13:50.410000+08:00","text":"有請卓院長跟顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:13:50.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:13:52.711000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長、國防部長備詢。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T17:13:52.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:13:52.991000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:04.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:09.955000+08:00","text":"卓院長、顧部長、各位國安高層跟全國現在正在看這場質詢的好朋友。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:10.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:17.103000+08:00","text":"今天我要談的不只是軍購，而是臺灣到底有沒有準備好面對未來的戰爭？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:17.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:38.140000+08:00","text":"因為戰爭不是買東西，戰爭是整個國家生存能力的考驗，今天行政院提出有關第一批發價書的採購，總金額接近3,000億，包括海馬士系統、M109A7自走砲、標槍飛彈、TOW拖式飛彈、反甲型無人機等。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:38.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:54.683000+08:00","text":"我要先講，我支持國防、我支持強化國軍，我也支持保衛中華民國，但是真正負責任的立法院，不是看到「抗中保臺」四個字就直接通過，而是要替人民問，這些武器到底有沒有用？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:55.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:55.784000+08:00","text":"值不值得？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:56.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:57.726000+08:00","text":"適不適合臺灣？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:14:57.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:14:59.989000+08:00","text":"是不是真的能夠撐過戰爭？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:00.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:02.331000+08:00","text":"能不能保護人民的生命安全？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:02.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:08.638000+08:00","text":"因為納稅人的錢不是政治口號，而是我們人民辛苦的血汗錢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:08.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:18.929000+08:00","text":"今天我要從軍事戰略、國安制宜跟現代戰爭三個角度來請教院長跟部長幾個非常核心的問題。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:18.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:24.174000+08:00","text":"第一個問題，我們到底是在建立豪豬，還是在買高級展示品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:25.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:46.385000+08:00","text":"這次軍購的最核心項目就是海馬士系統82套、4,320枚精準火箭、420枚ATACMS戰術飛彈，總價高達1,597億，事實上，海馬士沒有不好，它是目前全球最成功的遠程精準打擊系統之一。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:47.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:15:59.134000+08:00","text":"烏克蘭戰爭也證明HIMARS的確也具備高精準、高機動力、高殺傷能力，但是問題在於臺灣真的有能力讓它活下來嗎？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:15:59.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:02.036000+08:00","text":"我要請教國防部，你們有沒有做過完整的兵推？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:02.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:17.826000+08:00","text":"因為到目前為止，不管從軍事專家還是各方智庫都說，一旦兩岸開戰，共軍的第一波一定是衛星偵蒐、無人機搜查、電磁定位、飽和飛彈打擊、網路跟通訊癱瘓。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:17.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:22.550000+08:00","text":"請問臺灣西部平原這麼小，海馬士打完之後能躲去哪裡？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:22.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:24.551000+08:00","text":"有多少地下化的機動陣地？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:24.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:26.332000+08:00","text":"有多少後備油料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:26.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:29.074000+08:00","text":"有多少分散式的彈藥庫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:29.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:30.295000+08:00","text":"有多少甲車跟誘餌？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:30.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:33.217000+08:00","text":"有多少地下維修設施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:33.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:37.219000+08:00","text":"還是現在的規劃是希望海馬士打完一輪之後靠運氣？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:38.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:39.601000+08:00","text":"請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:39.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:16:55.507000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，第一個，這個條例就叫作不對稱戰力，我也可以跟委員報告，如果沒有合乎不對稱戰力要件的話，其實美國政府會有所遲疑。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:16:56.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:17:10.530000+08:00","text":"美國政府跟我們經過兩年的磋商，他提出的這些案項，都是認為符合不對稱戰力；不對稱戰力有一個特色就是一定要能夠機動、隱匿，具有您剛剛提到相關的致命性火力。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:17:11.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:17:34.162000+08:00","text":"海馬士的遠程性可以做跨區增援，並且它可以同時彈著、它可以做分散部署，所以在這樣的情況之下，它完全合乎我們現在所面對共軍可能全面入侵的情況之下，我們不對稱戰力建構的所有元素。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:17:34.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:17:35.543000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:17:36.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:17:57.933000+08:00","text":"請問院長，俄烏戰爭已經證明一件事情，現代戰場上不是武器先進就一定能夠存活，如果缺乏生存能力、偽裝能力、分散部署、戰場機動，再昂貴的武器都可能在幾天內被系統性摧毀，尤其臺灣不像烏克蘭有巨大的縱深，臺灣真正的問題是空間太小。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:17:58.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:18:07.337000+08:00","text":"所以我今天要質疑的是，我們現在到底是建立豪豬戰略，還是在買一批昂貴、醒目、容易被獵殺的高價目標呢？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:18:07.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:18:19.823000+08:00","text":"更重要的是我們現在買的是發射器，但是真正決定戰力的，其實是彈藥儲量、補給能力、戰時持續生產能力，我知道顧部長想要回答。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:18:20.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:18:24.405000+08:00","text":"請問國防部，如果戰爭超過兩週，我們有多少精準彈藥？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:18:25.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:18:29.326000+08:00","text":"還是現在的戰略是希望建立在戰爭很快就結束呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:18:30.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:18:41.948000+08:00","text":"委員，剛剛提到的作戰持續力是一個非常好的意見，可是我們這一次在特別條例提出來的彈藥戰備的生產量，我們要擴張14條產線，將我們的戰備存量提高到120天。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:18:42.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:08.639000+08:00","text":"這個被刪掉了，所以這些相關的彈藥，不但是要增加產線，我們也要能夠分散，然後我們也要在所有持續的量能裡面要做好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:09.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:15.241000+08:00","text":"另外，您剛剛提到偽裝，甚至是欺敵，這個都在我們的規劃範圍之內。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:15.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:37.426000+08:00","text":"也跟部長、院長報告，因為老實講，很多時候真正的戰爭從來不照劇本走，如果一切照劇本走的話，美伊戰爭或者美伊特別軍事行動，應該在一個禮拜，甚至10天之內就會解決，不過現在已經撐了超過三個月以上，所以我會比較擔心我們有沒有做好準備。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:38.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:39.707000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，我們剛剛講到的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:39.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:40.728000+08:00","text":"我們要增加到120天就被否決。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:40.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:43.550000+08:00","text":"不好意思，時間不太夠。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:43.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:19:49.254000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，M109A7真的符合臺灣的不對稱作戰嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:19:49.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:01.503000+08:00","text":"這是我們採購60門的自走砲，總價是806億元，平均1門超過13億元，我要請問院長，臺灣真的適合投入這麼高比例的重型自走砲嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:01.503000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:04.305000+08:00","text":"不是說M109A7……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:04.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:12.010000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長說過了，我們在跟美方洽談這樣的武器供應時，不對稱戰力是一個非常關鍵的思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:12.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:14.031000+08:00","text":"不好意思，院長，請讓我先把話講完，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:14.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:41.730000+08:00","text":"老實講，這就是後面要講的，因為這個武器跟我們的不對稱作戰好像有一點差距，它先進、它具有數位化、快速射擊、精準火控、網路化作戰能力，但是問題還是會回來，臺灣不是烏克蘭，我們沒有廣大的縱深，我們沒有長時間的轉移空間，我們也沒有遼闊的平原，一旦共軍獲得局部的制空，這些大型裝備的生存能力到底有多少？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:42.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:20:52.776000+08:00","text":"我也想要請教國防部，有沒有評估戰時的轉移能力、隱蔽能力、地下掩蔽能力、被無人機獵殺的風險？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:20:52.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:21:05.444000+08:00","text":"因為在俄烏戰爭現在已經出現大量案例，一台幾億的裝甲車被幾十萬的FPV無人機摧毀，所以請問我們的建軍方向真的有吸取現在戰爭的這些教訓嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:21:05.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:21:08.566000+08:00","text":"還是我們停留在大型重裝備等於戰略、等於戰力的舊時代思維呢？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:21:10.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:21:35.078000+08:00","text":"我想這個是要兼顧的，您剛剛提到無人機，確實也是一個非常重要的戰力，相對來講，反制無人機也是一個很重要的戰力，所以對於部隊提供反制無人機的力量，這就是我們現在要規劃建置的，也就是說，對於無人機的攻擊，我們假設能夠進行反制，就能夠保護整個部隊的安全。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:21:36.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:22:33.394000+08:00","text":"您提到M109A7，且剛剛已經提到它相關這些能力，包括它的射程也涵蓋了30公里以上的精準打擊能力，所以像這樣子跟海馬士做一個匹配的話，M109A7特別是在反登陸作戰的時候，它會提供這樣子的一個比我們現有的這些，比如我們現在的A2、我們現有的這些牽引砲要來的……就是說它的射程精準跟它的自動化射擊的能力，跟它的GPS定位、數位化指管，這個都是我們要引進的理由，因為如果我們不引進這樣子的部分，我們的砲兵還是一個重要的關鍵戰力，可是會停留在幾十年前這樣子的情況之下，所以我們比較想引進這個比較先進的，當然對於無人機的反制，也是一個重要的課題。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:22:33.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:22:46+08:00","text":"跟部長分享，我老實講，對於所謂的不對稱作戰，核心從來都不是貴，而是便宜、難抓、打不完，如果我們今天把部分預算投入機動火砲或水雷……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:22:46+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:22:51.042000+08:00","text":"所以要高低配，我們的無人機就是屬於便宜的，但被刪掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:22:51.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:22:54.505000+08:00","text":"還有機動反艦飛彈，是不是更符合我們臺灣的需求？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:22:54.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:23:03.511000+08:00","text":"因為我一直認為臺灣的真正決戰點其實應該在海峽，而不是在敵人上岸之後才開始苦戰，我是這樣認為的，不好意思還有……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:23:03.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:23:18.902000+08:00","text":"我想我們有一個削弱戰略的指導，我們從對岸的集結到渡海、到瀕海、到短登陸，一直到縱深，都是我們現在所有在演練的範圍之內。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:23:19.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:23:31.651000+08:00","text":"第三個問題，應該還是請教院長或部長，就是有關買軍購的國安標準，為什麼對內特別嚴格，對外特別寬鬆呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:23:32.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:23:47.021000+08:00","text":"我有一個蠻重要的問題想要請教院長，目前我們國軍尤其是中科院，在採購國防、通信、資訊、電子系統的時候，都明確要求設備跟零組件不得使用中國大陸及港澳產製產品。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:23:47.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:23:53.783000+08:00","text":"我要請教院長，原因應該會是涉及國安、涉及資安、涉及通訊安全、涉及後門風險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:23:54.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:04.708000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，我就不太能理解，政府對國內的廠商要求這麼嚴格，為什麼美國對臺軍售案，我們沒有要求美方也比照辦理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:05.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:23.626000+08:00","text":"因為如果今天國內廠商用了陸製零件，政府說這叫國安風險，但是在美國的軍售裝備裡面若存在中國製零組件的可能，我們卻不敢或是完全不敢要求揭露或檢驗，人民當然會問，我們是不是真的重視國安？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:24.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:27.610000+08:00","text":"還是我們只是用這套標準來要求我們臺灣自己的廠商呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:29.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:53.808000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，資安的要求在軍規武器上面，它的要求程度是特別高的，所以美國在任何提供軍售的方面，它整體在資安的要求上，我想絕對不會忽視這樣一個資安的要求。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:53.808000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:54.808000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:53.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:24:58.512000+08:00","text":"現在可能要繼續問下去，本來應該要問院長，既然部長想答，我就繼續問下去。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T17:24:59.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:25:02.936000+08:00","text":"委員，美方對資安的要求難道會低於我們嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:25:04.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:25:11.921000+08:00","text":"目前美國提供給臺灣的軍售裝備相關供應鏈及零組件來源，國防部是否有完整掌握？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:25:12.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:25:16.504000+08:00","text":"能不能保證完全不存在中國製的零組件風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:25:16.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:25:26.469000+08:00","text":"尤其是現在有很多軍用的零件，全球供應鏈高度複雜，請問國防部是否有建立原產地查核機制、韌體安全檢驗、資安滲透測試、第三方認證制度還是有其他的……","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T17:25:32.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:25:58.506000+08:00","text":"臺灣今天存在最重要的就是我們可以在非紅化供應鏈當中占領重要的一席之地，也要靠我們的研發製造能力，才能早日幫我們的友盟國家一起去掉紅色供應鏈，目前可能還有一些是必須的，但現在是我們要及早去掉紅色供應鏈，進入民主供應鏈完整的時代，那臺灣就必須要掌握這個契機。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:25:58.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:03.893000+08:00","text":"我認為與其一直在保證，倒不如說我們應該好好建立這個制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:04.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:05.773000+08:00","text":"我這邊提出三點具體建議……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:05.773000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:06.773000+08:00","text":"雙方對軍購案都會成立專案辦公室，我們都會派駐廠人員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:05.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:10.058000+08:00","text":"我提出三點具體的建議，第一點是全面地下化彈藥庫及機動陣地，今天最怕的其實不是武器不夠先進，而是怕開戰第一波就掛掉。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:24.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:29.120000+08:00","text":"高價武器如果沒有地下化、分散化、備援化，那就只是昂貴的煙火。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:29.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:26:45.116000+08:00","text":"我要求國防部全面盤點地下化油庫、地下化彈藥庫、備援機動陣地、戰時偽裝設施，因為真正的現代戰爭，第一件事情不是射飛彈，而是找目標，誰藏得久，誰才打得久。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:26:45.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:09.431000+08:00","text":"第二，建立戰時快速量產體系，臺灣不能永遠只會買武器，真正的國防韌性是要自己能生產武器，包括飛彈零件、通訊設備、電戰模組、衛星通訊備援都必須建立民間跟戰時的量產能力，不然一旦被封鎖、補給中斷，我們買再多軍購都只是一次性消耗品。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:10.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:25.737000+08:00","text":"我知道我們都沒談到無人機，可是老實說，我們不讓Starlink或Starshield這種低軌道衛星的設備轉型進來，而是現在還在用英國OpenWeb那個系統，其實是緩不濟急的……","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:25.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:28.147500+08:00","text":"OneWeb。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:28.147500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:30.558000+08:00","text":"OneWeb，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:30.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:40.461000+08:00","text":"如果我們一旦被封鎖、補給中斷，那麼買再多軍購都是一次消耗品，我認為未來真正重要的不是平時庫存多少，而是戰時每個月能生產多少。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:41.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:45.922000+08:00","text":"第三個，我上次跟部長說要成立專案辦公室，所以應該會建立一個非紅供應鏈的國防採購標準對吧？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:27:49.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:27:59.910000+08:00","text":"既然政府已經要求國內廠商不得使用中國大陸跟港澳製零組件，那麼對臺所有軍售案也應該採取相同的標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:28:00.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:28:18.042000+08:00","text":"國防不是嘴巴喊抗中，但是供應鏈卻還在依賴紅色零件，真正最重要的不是只有武器的名稱，而是晶片從哪裡來、通訊模組誰生產、電子元件誰供貨、軟體韌體誰維護？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:28:18.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:28:37.197000+08:00","text":"因為未來戰爭打的不是只有飛彈，還有資安、後門、電磁滲透、供應鏈控制，所以我在這邊要要求國防部全力建立軍購非紅供應鏈審查制度，剛剛講的專案辦公室應該可以做到這一點，不分國內外廠商一律採同樣的標準。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:28:38.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:28:45.800000+08:00","text":"最後，老實說，真正愛國的人不會只問買多少武器，而是會問這些武器是不是真的能保護人民。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-05-20T17:28:46.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:28:58.382000+08:00","text":"今天立法院監督軍購不是反對國防，恰恰相反，因為我們在乎中華民國的安全，所以才必須幫人民把每一分納稅錢問清楚、查明白，謝謝。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-05-20T17:28:58.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:03.183000+08:00","text":"所以請委員能夠支持非紅供應鏈的國防自主產能。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:03.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:03.443000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:03.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:09.943000+08:00","text":"謝謝林沛祥委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及國防部長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:10.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:15.957286+08:00","text":"我們休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:16.257286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:17.400143+08:00","text":"休息（17時29分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:17.700143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:19.414429+08:00","text":"繼續開會（17時39分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:19.714429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:22.571571+08:00","text":"報告院會，我們繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-20T17:29:22.871571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-20T17:29:28.300143+08:00","text":"接下來請王定宇委員質詢，王鴻薇委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}