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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1936.211,"end":1946.537,"text":"请组密报告出席人数报告委员会出席委员11人以组法定人数现在开会进行报告事项请宣读上次会议意思录"},{"start":1947.403,"end":1970.096,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期經紀委員會第三次全體委員會議事錄時間114年10月15日星期三九十二分至十三十三分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員林黛華等十四人列席委員郭國文等十九人列席的農業部部長陳俊記等主席陳昭紀委員廷飛報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二 邀請農業部部長列席報告優概況並備質詢"},{"start":1972.621,"end":1990.658,"text":"農業部部長陳俊濟報告後委員林大化等22人提出質詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟等及其答覆決定以登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員林靜憲所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1994.877,"end":2009.468,"text":"謝謝 因為我們在場委員不足三任我們等待待會再進行處理一事路那我們現在進行報告事項 請宣讀邀請公民教育委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況並被質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2011.625,"end":2030.298,"text":"我们介绍我们在场所列席的机关首长我们第一位是我们公平交易委员会代理主委陈志明陈主委还有主秘毛厚吉毛主秘中文规划处代理处长洪德昌洪处长服务业"},{"start":2031.105,"end":2052.769,"text":"競争处处长胡祖顺胡处长制造业竞争处处长胡光宇胡处长谢谢公平竞争处代理处长叶天福叶处长法律事务处处长沈丽玉沈处长资讯及经济分析师分析室主任郑嘉玲郑主任"},{"start":2053.652,"end":2081.864,"text":"秘書是主任曹樹偉曹主任人事是主任陳龍清陳主任主計是主任陳盈環陳主任政風是主任陳舒樂陳主任謝謝那我們先請我們這個本日議程是排定公平交易委員會作業務報告我們現在請公平交易委員會的陳志明代理組主委來報告"},{"start":2093.939,"end":2101.667,"text":"主席各位委員我們稍等一下那個鄭委員等一下我們先確定議事錄一下議事錄有沒有問題"},{"start":2103.103,"end":2126.152,"text":"沒有的話我們就通過謝謝不好意思主委謝謝主席各位委員各位女士各位先生各位先生大家早安今天很榮幸能夠代表公平會來到大院做這個公平會最近的一個業務報告那我以下簡單的針對本會在過去這段時間所做的一些相關的在競爭法上的作為跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":2127.113,"end":2148.642,"text":"那維護市場競爭秩序一直是本會的重點那聯合行為當然又是其中更重要的部分那這段時間我們有針對幾個比較大的聯合行為做出了採取那包含了飼料業包含了東港小琉球之間的航運的聯合行為還有這個石化業聯合行為那也包括了請下一頁"},{"start":2151.684,"end":2181.204,"text":"也包括了其他的像這個不實廣告的部分不實廣告當然是我們的也是重要的業務之一那我們為了特別是在這個不動產的不實廣告的部分我們也有處理過相當的經驗那另外針對多城市傳銷的部分我們也處理了很多關於傳銷商未申報或是變更事項但是並沒有變更那所有的目的都希望能夠維持這個整個傳銷制度的健全發展跟合理的發展下一頁"},{"start":2183.305,"end":2208.217,"text":"那在結合案的部分我們針對幾個重大的結合案包含像金控公司之間的結合還有這個大家眾所矚目的有關中鋼等六家事業結合成立的一個台灣智慧電能股份有限公司的結合案那這個對我們國家在發展這個綠能產業上來講有重要的一個代表性的意義那另外針對"},{"start":2211.655,"end":2223.58,"text":"東港小琉球部分的一個聯合行為共同售票的行為等六家事業申請聯合行為這也是我們審理的一個重點那當然大宗物資的聯合進口案也是我們在審理正起審理過的一個重要的案件請過"},{"start":2225.674,"end":2245.534,"text":"好 那在另外ESG在永續發展是目前國際間的一個潮流那本會為了因應這個潮流也在114年的2月發布了事業因應環境永續涉及聯合行為的參考指引那這個指引的主要目的是希望能夠提供業者在進行ESG必須要彼此合作的時候呢"},{"start":2245.954,"end":2272.006,"text":"能够注意到公平交易法所设下的一个红线特别是有关于联合行为的部分所以我们在这个指引当中详细的具体的列出了可以被允许的行为不可进行的行为以及我们必须要进一步审查的一个三个阶段的三个层次的一个不同的行为那其实我们主要的目的是希望能够让企业有一个明确的法尊的依据那这个指引公布以后呢"},{"start":2272.586,"end":2300.108,"text":"业界反应非常热烈那我们为了因应这个业界的需求我们也在台北台中新竹高雄举办了相关的宣导说明会那在过程当中我们也邀请环境部共同来参与针对有关这个毒废器物的相关跟这个ESG之间的关系来详细来做一个说明那业者纷纷对于我们这样的说明会都表示高度的肯定也能够提供他们在法则上一个具体的一个指标下一页"},{"start":2301.482,"end":2319.43,"text":"那不實廣告的部分我們一樣秉持過去的作為積極的在查處特別是在網路的不實廣告那剛剛我談過的時候不動產的不實廣告 預售物的不實廣告我們也處理了很多這方面的一個廣告的內容那希望能夠消費者在購物的時候能夠有一個正確的資訊可以來做選擇"},{"start":2320.646,"end":2340.706,"text":"那在查查不實廣告的過程當中跨部會的合作也是非常重要那有些不實廣告的案子會是屬於其他部會主管的我們會把這個案子移給其他的主管機關那當然有些不實廣告有涉及到其他部會主管的事項我們會徵詢其他主管機關的專業上的意見來做我們採取的依據那我們在"},{"start":2342.167,"end":2362.683,"text":"檢討法規的部分我們也修正了公民交易法第21條的處理原則還有這個程序作業的要點其實主要的目的就是希望能夠有具體明確的標準也讓我們整個審查的過程能夠更加的快速跟明確那在宣導部分我們也積極的跟民眾還有各個相關的團體民間的團體來做一個做一個宣導請下一頁"},{"start":2364.397,"end":2385.907,"text":"多層次傳銷的管理部分在目前公平法的報備制度底下我們對於業者報備的案件所提供的資料我們都會詳實去查詢它的真實性那透過審查的報備資料我們來健全這個管理的機制那另外我們也修正了有關多層次傳銷的處理原則來節省我們這個審查的行政資源那希望能夠加速案件的處理時效"},{"start":2386.647,"end":2410.821,"text":"那多程式傳銷同時就傳銷的內容產品等等可能都會涉及到其他部會的分工像這個衛福部那甚至有些多程式傳銷涉及到違法吸金是屬於犯罪行為我們會把案件移給法務部從事這個犯罪行為來調查那我們也配合法令的宣導做業務的檢查我們會隨時跟有時候會跟其他的部會來做一個業務的相關這個事業單位的業務的檢查"},{"start":2413.883,"end":2435.612,"text":"那對於吸監案件我們會移送檢調那藉由這種種的方式呢我們可以來維護這個傳銷教育的秩序那當然民眾在事後如果跟傳銷商傳銷事業之間有一些民事上的糾紛我們的傳保會我們公民會也會傳保會積極的配合合作來協助這個相關的傳銷事業來進行這個法律上權力的保護下一頁"},{"start":2438.123,"end":2462.62,"text":"在物價的部分公平會向來關切對於這個物價波動我們向來關切的是有沒有業者不當的人為操控特別是聯合行為的部分所以本會是行政院的穩定物價小組跟物價聯合計算小組的議員那主要我們對物價是觀察有沒有當市場價格物價有所波動的時候有沒有背後涉及到聯合行為的部分那會內"},{"start":2463.621,"end":2476.437,"text":"本會內部有定期召開防治人為操縱物價的專案小組我們會主動去監控重要的民生物資以及輿論關切的一些商品波動那在三節的時候我們也會進行這個市場的市價的一個調查"},{"start":2479.941,"end":2494.409,"text":"那這些都主要在觀察有沒有業者利用這個節慶的時間進行價格的聯合漲價那如果市場價格波動達到一定的程度以後我們會進行溯源的調查會進一步去探究這個背後的原因是什麼好 下一頁"},{"start":2495.97,"end":2518.863,"text":"那公民法的發展是非常快速 尤其近幾年來在國際間對於新的議題的出現 包含像數位的議題 環保的議題等等所以本會也積極地在觀察跟配合 注意在國際間對這方面的一個發展那主要的作為是透過一些研究計畫 透過委託學者來做一些專題的一些演講跟報導"},{"start":2520.104,"end":2542.246,"text":"來強化會內同仁在新議題上的執法的一個能力那本會在112年委託的一個數位經濟事業定價策略的聯合行為實證分析方法研究這也得到了國際間的一個反托拉斯塔寫作獎的一個肯定那另外針對AI普遍大家現在非常關切的AI還有生成式人工智慧的這個問題"},{"start":2543.507,"end":2565.649,"text":"本會在114年7月也草擬了一個深圳市人工智慧相關的競爭法議題來徵詢外界的意見那廣邀社會各界提供的意見那主要的目的是希望能夠了解在深圳市AI未來對競爭對市場競爭所可能產生的一些影響那目前這個對外徵詢的意見已經結束我們正在彙整相關的意見"},{"start":2566.309,"end":2594.107,"text":"那进一步来思考未来用什么方法来做出一个更具体的一个政策上的说明特别针对人工智慧对市场竞争的关系来跟外界来做一个说明跟沟通那宣导的部分或是竞争倡议的部分也是我们的业务重点之一那我们用多元的方式来推广这个宣导倡议的工作那包含像教育陷阱面面观活动我们会积极的跟"},{"start":2595.12,"end":2617.836,"text":"民眾 我們甚至有辦一些經常辦一些宣導會來宣導公民教育法的相關規定那特別針對一些比較偏向地區新住民 原住民的地區我們也會適時的把公民教育法多層次傳銷法的相關的規定來跟他們做宣導希望他們不要上當受騙那另外我們有這個所謂的公民教育法G2B的直銷這個倡議的一個活動"},{"start":2622.881,"end":2640.956,"text":"那這個主要是針對配合企業的需求企業可以來跟我們要提出申請就是說他們希望能夠了解公平法或是其他法跟公平會有關的法規哪個部分我們可以客製化的針對他們所需要的需求去他們的公司來跟他們做這個這方面的宣導"},{"start":2641.937,"end":2654.848,"text":"那當然我們的有一些刊物像電子報的部分也都是把我們近期的一些重要的案例對外的宣導希望能夠讓民眾能夠多一點瞭解公平法的一個在實施上的一些內容跟績效下一個"},{"start":2656.345,"end":2681.898,"text":"那最後跟各位介紹我們在推動競爭法的國際業務上來講向來也是公平會一個一個主要的亮點我們會今年8月我們跟國際美國的知名的智庫國際法律經濟中心辦了一個關於數位競爭產業創新的一個研討會那主要是探討公平法產業發展跟科技創新之間的互動關係那與會有來自各國的"},{"start":2682.738,"end":2704.357,"text":"公部门的竞争委员会的委员也有包含学者律师专家等等那这个活动参与率非常高总共超过100多个人参与那活动的成果也非常丰硕那另外一个当然我们固定的会参加一些国际上的一些重要竞争法的会议其中像OECD ICN APEC这些都是我们固定会出席参加的"},{"start":2705.157,"end":2721.744,"text":"美国律师协会的有一些重要跟竞争法有关反突拉司法有关的会议我们也会适时看情况派员参加来掌握这个国际执法的脉络来提高我国国际能见度跟影响力那在双边交流的部分我们跟加拿大 巴拉圭 日本"},{"start":2722.704,"end":2746.723,"text":"有進行競爭法事務進行雙邊的交流強化這個夥伴的關係那我個人上個禮拜才從巴拉圭我率團到巴拉圭進行雙邊的會談那在巴拉圭地方我們受到相當多的一個禮遇跟歡迎我們也跟巴拉圭的競爭主管機關進行了將近三個小時的雙邊會談那針對彼此之間在執行競爭法的一些經驗做一個交流所以收穫非常豐碩下一頁"},{"start":2750.139,"end":2766.104,"text":"公平交易委員會的主要職責是在透過維持市場競爭秩序來實現產業創新提高效率間接的讓消費者能夠從中得到福利那過去我們積極的依照公平交易法還有多層次傳銷管理辦法這些我們執掌的法規"},{"start":2766.884,"end":2784.191,"text":"来推展我们的业务那未来我们也会本持这样的一个精神在这个法规架构底下我们努力的去精进我们的执法技能希望能够让整个公平法所要实现的目的能够更有效率的能够精进的实现那希望各位能够对本会多多指教那以上报告谢谢"},{"start":2789.183,"end":2811.2,"text":"謝謝 謝謝陳志明主委的報告那現在詢答我們委員詢答之前 依照往例我們做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的林黛華委員發言好 有請主委"},{"start":2819.076,"end":2840.957,"text":"我們請主委主委本期還是就傳實銷的部分跟你來做個討論本期的主張傳實銷業的業管應該是經濟部而非你們公平會這樣的主張訴求一直不變但在這個訴求達到"},{"start":2843.38,"end":2862.539,"text":"達成之前我覺得你們還是連監理的工作都做得不好所以如何讓傳直銷賣得開心買得安心你們現在你的簡報第8頁寫得多漂亮那我就要告訴你你的監理是多麼的多麼的弱化所以強化產業輔導與產品管理才是你們讓傳直銷"},{"start":2863.92,"end":2893.355,"text":"能够这个产业健全卖得开心买得安心好在多层次传销当中在台湾已经不是小众市场你们简报也讲很清楚今年的年报多层次传销登陆的是2183家参与的人是312万人可见这个产业牵动的是经济活动消费安全跟社会信任传之销在台湾长期就是一个尖锂灰色带的产业我讲尖锂灰色带是对你们的"},{"start":2893.875,"end":2916.989,"text":"批评他牵涉的经济发展也影响消费安全过去三年的裁罚只有92件罚还不到3000万好这样的绩效你来看真的实质的消费争议跟民刑事的案件超过2400件这都是你们公平会跟消保会我会诊的结果你才裁罚92件呢"},{"start":2918.63,"end":2938.064,"text":"然後滑板不到三千欸實質民行是跟消費爭議欸 兩千四百件欸你看你的監理力道在哪裡簡報寫在那上頭 我都替你看嚴好 我要強調的傳承消費不能無底線的劣幣驅逐良幣"},{"start":2938.985,"end":2964.216,"text":"你們現在就簡單講就是公平會放任無良的公司吸金詐騙所以我點出你現在的問題我就就你現在的監理來講第一個你的輔導流於宣傳宣導的活動缺乏實質追蹤跟評鑑機制第二個產品跟收益結構的風險監控是有斷層的你的資訊揭露不透明這是本席的創建嗎也沒有"},{"start":2964.896,"end":2982.629,"text":"這個其實是放諸國際上他們所做的好我們來看看你們的業務報告我怎麼說你們的監理力道不足你們是標準的準司法機關欸仲裁是你的工具欸這樣的情況之下你的監理力道還相當不足你們公平會的業務報告怎麼講呢"},{"start":2983.45,"end":3010.931,"text":"好啊這剛才你的簡報第8月就講了每年辦理傳銷法令宣導活動與法務部調查局合作防範吸金詐騙有做啊第二個呢主動函報這個食品資料給衛生主管機關第三個與衛生主管機關進行聯合稽查跟違法移送第四個真的你也有這個簡化這個作業程序提升效率可是呢來"},{"start":3012.532,"end":3041.352,"text":"你們現在所做的這三件事情第一個你就缺乏產業輔導成效的量化評估跟風險預警指標了產業輔導你既然要種材又要輔導我就不知道你怎麼做好 那既然你要做就要做得像樣所以你們在這個你既然輔導之後沒績效所以我又要求你要量化評估跟風險預警所以你沒有三沒有你沒有年度自律的評鑑報告"},{"start":3042.093,"end":3057.126,"text":"沒有違規再犯率的統計沒有頁著透明度的分析所以簡單講你們就重宣導清雞茶這個辦活動活動多數據少這就是你們現在的狀態好第二個"},{"start":3059.326,"end":3079.398,"text":"這個國際比較這個根據呢這個國際呢我就好吧你們喜歡報備就報備吧但是人家的報備制也做得有模有樣啊自律跟透明好根據OECD韓國的這個公正交易委員會跟美國的FTC聯邦貿易委員會的做法美國怎麼做他要求傳銷企業公開銷售收益結構"},{"start":3080.399,"end":3104.111,"text":"你的銷售收入必須高於招募收入這樣才是真的賣產品啊當你的招募是多於銷售的時候變成什麼你在拉人頭啊就有吸金詐騙的嫌疑啊好那韓國怎麼做這些都是屬於報備的喔韓國他建立起誠信業者的評鑑系統評比企業經營的透明度跟公佈值結果日本做什麼"},{"start":3104.791,"end":3124.081,"text":"實施再犯加重罰凡制 再犯我怎麼加重罰凡而且人家是每三年重審報備內容也是報備 人家三年審一次就可以管得那麼好你們每年都在做結果呢 吸金詐騙層出不窮十萬塊可以成立一家公司倒了再換 草永遠都查不到"},{"start":3124.841,"end":3146.649,"text":"劣幣驅逐良幣嘛所以這些做法這邊建議的都是這些國家都是報備他做的是強化資訊兼容跟事後管理你要做就做像樣所以就比照監理升級的模式現在就是讓你的報備制變成有責任的管理制這是你現在過度的做法本席還是強調商業就是商業"},{"start":3148.069,"end":3175.857,"text":"那這個管理 你是仲裁就是仲裁所以既然這個傳銷業它就是一個商業的一個產業你就回歸經濟部然後呢 這個你要做仲裁你就從你的這個報告第一頁開始 你看你的寫得多漂亮第一頁到第五頁都在 喔不對耶第一頁到第六頁六頁半都在講說你怎麼仲裁各行各業這才是你的本務嘛怎麼會是你在管一個"},{"start":3176.917,"end":3189.782,"text":"管一個多城市傳銷呢所以我也不講報備制或許可制了我覺得新力儲幣啦很單純的就是它是一個行業回歸經濟部經濟部沒有在防幣嗎不是吧"},{"start":3191.425,"end":3215.956,"text":"好 我就三大追問 三大的短期行動的要求第一個 產業輔導要有效 不是只宣導所以請你們公平會審慎評估建立針對業者輔導成效的績效評估指標建立起來吧輔導後的再販率要有統計所以短期誠信業者的名單 制度讓守法者受獎勵違法者受監控第二個"},{"start":3217.749,"end":3240.312,"text":"產品跟收益結構要透明現行的只要求書面報備但未強制揭露產品價值的比例跟分論模式你知道哪有這個業者說好你政府多管我一點你的這個分認制度要透明你的這個產品比例這都是業者告訴我們立法院的耶"},{"start":3242.645,"end":3256.589,"text":"這個所以你們不做好那你們又要監理所以這邊請你們建議導入收益結構的公開讓消費者一眼辨明這家公司是賣產品還是拉人頭我所謂拉人頭就是吸金是這個吸金詐騙的這個"},{"start":3261.07,"end":3278.367,"text":"的怎麼防範這些東西他的組織的下面的延伸是對的去發展這些這個這個船直銷的這些的組織是對的但是只要他透明分論透明那當然很多有人願意投入啊"},{"start":3279.398,"end":3292.366,"text":"這個是對的 但是當你的分論不透明你的監理機制沒有出來的時候沒有揭露這樣透明的時候就會變成有詐騙性的 但是如果好的話他是很好的一個產業長富於民吶"},{"start":3293.786,"end":3319.149,"text":"第三個 資訊要可查 稽查要可追公平會的網站 現在你們只有報備清單沒有違法紀錄的查詢與風險等級的資料要求半個月內推出多層次傳銷透明查詢平台要有這三個階段 第一個 違法案件類型與次數第二個 已受輔導業者的清單第三 年度市場規模的變動這是在你這個平台 網站當中就建立起來"},{"start":3319.87,"end":3347.869,"text":"好中長期第一個建立傳銷傳銷產業誠信憑鑒制度由你們主導你喜歡主導就由你來主導吧跟產業的工協會跟學界共同參與作為後續輔導的依據第二個跨部會的產品的稽查常態化你們現在就有做了那只是要常態化將衛福部經濟部納入固定聯合稽查的體系特別針對健康食品美容產品等高風險項目第三個強化資訊公開透明化"},{"start":3349.85,"end":3375.368,"text":"推動多層次傳銷白皮書這個一定要做年度報告公開數據輔導成效違法名單好我現在講到這三個你要短中長期三個行動方案三個具體改革好在這邊你回答之前我想到你們現在組織什麼公文會現在什麼都不做你就是你監管你把你的這個輔導工作人員交給的傳保費"},{"start":3377.069,"end":3390.703,"text":"然後呢把這個食品安全或美容就交給經濟部的商標局或者是衛福部的這個相關的主管機關然後你們就不做了然後就辦活動你們叫做只有仲裁罰人家錢之外然後就辦國內外的國際論壇"},{"start":3393.393,"end":3418.116,"text":"就這樣子而已這樣對嗎好 請簡單回應 謝謝跟委員說明非常謝謝委員的指教委員今天所提出來這些建議特別是關於一些資訊介入的部分其實是符合我們在報備制度底下要資訊要公開透明讓傳銷商有機會在加入之前能夠試所以這部分我們會審慎的來評估該如何做其實委員點出的這些問題我們在個案當中都有在做比如說"},{"start":3419.036,"end":3429.144,"text":"處分違法再加重這本來在公平在公正加重法裡面我們就可以加重那當然委員建議是希望把這個東西整合變成是一個具體的統合性的資料這邊我們回去會再"},{"start":3430.609,"end":3452.864,"text":"會再參酌然後看後續怎麼做那中長期的部分有些要建立一些比較這些比較大的一個改變的制度這個因為多層次傳銷基本上我們在因為是一個傳銷的手段所以應該還是一個私部門的契約行為所以我們會去了解一下這種建議是不是會過度介入到傳銷商跟傳銷事業彼此之間的契約的約定的自由"},{"start":3453.604,"end":3482.24,"text":"不會 現在都是你們做我只是把它建立制度而已啊參考國外的制度來建立而已啊誠信平建制度好的給它獎勵啊不好的就是要給它退場啊那它的再範率就是你這個不好的一個指標之一啊稽查常態化你們現在就有做啊只是常態化不要擾民但是你又有一個這個一個制度在那第三個強化公開透明啊你的白皮書要出來啊你既然要管就管得像樣啊白皮書就要出來啊"},{"start":3482.6,"end":3488.964,"text":"怎麼新立呀謝謝謝謝林黛華委員謝謝主委然後我們現在謝謝我們現在請邱映穎委員諮詢謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳主委我們請陳主委謝謝"},{"start":3516.513,"end":3542.164,"text":"好主委好主委我想這個每次談到公平會就會有很多其實大部分我們都會談到這個直銷到底這個直銷多層次傳銷管理法有沒有法律漏洞有沒有問題對於公平會來講你們能夠掌握的程度又到哪裡我相信每一次只要你們到立法院來備詢都會面對到很多委員的這個提問"},{"start":3545.26,"end":3560.86,"text":"主委你知道這家公司嗎我最近才聽到最近才知道聽說最近蠻紅的不過今天各大媒體都在報導因為這家公司的董事長涉嫌掏空公司所以這家公司已經幾乎是面臨倒閉"},{"start":3562.079,"end":3591.272,"text":"那這個涉嫌掏空公司這個另外有法令去處理為什麼今天在這裡問你們因為他是一家直銷公司他的入會會員要繳8萬8千塊然後呢還有商品進貨價等等會員轉售可賺取價差公司另外獲利抽成8到12%的獎金這就是明顯的傳銷公司嘛直銷公司可是這家公司現在"},{"start":3592.526,"end":3619.277,"text":"出現了一個大問題那公司涉嫌掏空6億董事長也坦誠犯刑我要跟你談的是那下面的這一些會員怎麼辦血本無歸在我們多層次傳銷管理法裡頭有沒有辦法來幫助他們這個等一下請回答另外我們常在講多層次傳銷的假投資真詐騙"},{"start":3621.289,"end":3645.052,"text":"其實是層出不窮除了這一家公司以外還有另外一家叫做愛美全球這一家前一陣子也倒閉了倒閉了之後不到多久在同一個地址又出現了一家叫做世紀全球又出現了一家叫做世紀全球公司"},{"start":3646.449,"end":3670.038,"text":"兩家公司的地址是一樣賣的產品是一樣只是公司負責人換掉了那自救會呢愛美全球的自救會去上門去討債去尋找這個債主但是所求無門啊主委你們知道這些事情嗎我知道"},{"start":3670.953,"end":3678.37,"text":"你們知道 那你們有沒有主動介入調查你們現在調查的結果 調查的程度到哪裡可不可以來這裡簡略說明一下"},{"start":3680.106,"end":3707.999,"text":"首先針對第一個案子那個部分掏空的部分我們有去了解當然後續我們還是會持續觀察有沒有違反多層層傳銷管理辦法規定那我們了解基本上是掏空公司還有公司股東之間的一個股權的爭議那我們有問過他們目前公司了解一下我們目前公司的營運狀況目前還是正常但是我們事後還是會持續去觀察看有沒有涉及到傷害到這個傳銷商的權益的一些事項那第二個案子"},{"start":3709.239,"end":3728.759,"text":"当然涉及违法吸金的部分这部分我们向来都是由法务部依照犯罪行为来处理那关于委员所关切的这些问题我想委员知道在多层次专项在公平会的报备制度底下我们要求他提供资讯在他设立的时候必须提供资讯我们要确认这个资讯的真实性"},{"start":3729.64,"end":3755.521,"text":"那當然如果後續他是不是片面的去改變他的資訊的內容理論上來講他一定要跟我們報備如果你要變更產品你覺得他如果片面改變資訊內容他會跟你們報備嗎這個報備制其實我們在這邊討論很久到底多層次傳銷是要用使用報備制還是使用審查制這個兩派的說法論戰非常的激烈但是眼前看到的多層次傳銷"},{"start":3757.463,"end":3786.048,"text":"的管理報備制的管理顯然出現了極大的漏洞跟極大的問題而且這樣子的多層次傳銷變成是假投資真詐騙的事情層出不窮對你們公平會來講你們叫做疲於奔命啊那你手上也沒有上方保健可以去處理他們就算你要處理你的量能基本上也是不足的就你公平會來講你每年只能積查100家左右100家已經很了不起了"},{"start":3786.96,"end":3810.094,"text":"那全台灣報備的或者是全台灣在做這些直銷的大概有幾百家幾千家你們量能在哪裡你每次都是講我事後知道看到報導了知道或者是立法委員在這裡質詢你的時候你知道然後呢你給他裁罰對不對你會給他裁罰你會去調查那裁罰了以後呢"},{"start":3811.372,"end":3830.359,"text":"我們事後的裁法當然像這個案子我目前已經有在立案調查調查這個事情那當然事後調查以後我們還是會持續的做這個業務的監理了解他有沒有按照我們當初裁法所要求來做那第二個案子的部分我想委員建議的這些相關的"},{"start":3832.06,"end":3856.66,"text":"积极的一点的一种报备的一个制度这个其实还是回归到我们刚刚委员谈到的报备许可制的问题其实我觉得现在已经走到这个阶段我们应该认真的思考包括你们公平会应该认真的思考到底多层次传销是不是要再持续使用报备制如果把它改成审查制对于消费者或者是对于这些会员来讲"},{"start":3857.541,"end":3874.908,"text":"是不是會比較有保障而且對於你們的監管是不是會比較與法有據這個是你們要認真考慮的一點我再來跟你講第三個案子你剛剛講到那些不管是報備審查我現在跟你講到第三個叫做強迫推銷"},{"start":3876.778,"end":3896.427,"text":"街頭強迫推銷過去你們曾經對一家叫愛妮雅的化妝品集團因為他這次在路邊發問卷免費是贈送保養品 試用品你們把他裁罰叫做依公平會的這個第25條顯示公平行為重罰新台幣2500萬元"},{"start":3899.761,"end":3928,"text":"過去愛妮雅的這種方式被你們裁罰過那我想請教最近媒體也多方的報導甚至在消保會消保官也累計到了15件類似行為的申訴他是在中山商圈有一家這個叫何瑞公司推銷什麼抹鹽硬強迫你然後把你拉進去就要買商品這你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":3929.946,"end":3937.334,"text":"好 那個我也跟委員報告 這個案子沒錯 就是在 在消保會所以還沒有送到公平會來 那他有沒有觸犯"},{"start":3938.927,"end":3962.021,"text":"當然這個個案我們要進行調查才會知道但是跟委員報告一下這個所謂的強迫推銷有一些要件除了剛剛委員點到25條要一定的數量以外另外就是說他的行為必須要讓這個受害人已經達到斜坡的一個程度讓他無法抗拒那我有處理一些案子基本上消費者在一開始被接觸的時候他可以輕易的就拒絕那就可以規避掉了"},{"start":3962.401,"end":3984.603,"text":"所以有時候那個階段基本上它就可以規避掉所以如果沒有達到那個強制的程度的話我們是比較沒辦法用25條去處理這種強迫推銷這個主委我覺得是這樣你這樣講大概很多消費者大概內心都不太能夠接受我希望你們能夠主動的去調查這個案子這新聞媒體也都有報導它有沒有強制"},{"start":3985.444,"end":3996.303,"text":"他把它拉用街頭抹鹽推銷然後把它拉進去店裡面然後就開了一瓶保養品說叫他立刻試用打開了之後就告訴他你已經打開了所以你不能退貨"},{"start":3998.379,"end":4025.515,"text":"那這有沒有強迫推銷我想這個還是要在個案去詳細情況了解那我就請你們去調查嘛如果像類似這樣的事情我覺得這個已經層出不窮至少要讓消費者覺得公平交易法是有保護到他們的多層次傳銷法你沒有辦法去嚇阻真正的詐騙集團假投資真詐騙那你這樣子的公平交易法至少你們可以做得到吧如果連這個都做不到的話那我真的不知道"},{"start":4026.84,"end":4053.417,"text":"公平會到底可以做一些什麼東西喔你不能都說 哎呀你們沒有主動的調查權啊等等的法令在那裡其實法令是可以修改的法令是可以往前更進一步的當你知道有這麼多的受害案件的時候其實我們不應該被動的去等待人家來提供資訊喔所以您會以我的看法嗎這個我們會主動去了解跟觀察那這個案子我們會後續會去進一步的了解OK 好 謝謝謝謝秋瑩委員質詢謝謝主委"},{"start":4056.124,"end":4059.346,"text":"我們麻煩易營請陳廷飛委員質詢謝謝主席我們請主委"},{"start":4081.877,"end":4094.135,"text":"主委我想我延續議員的質詢其實你剛剛講了一點讓大家很擔心的是說你要看強制的程度是什麼狀況請問這個標準誰定"},{"start":4098.959,"end":4118.828,"text":"这个我们在处理原则里面是依照一般人的生活经验合理的生活经验在这种情况底下消费者是难以抗拒的是啊他邀你进去然后开了一个商品让你试用然后你要离开的时候说你已经开了所以呢你要付费"},{"start":4119.727,"end":4145.975,"text":"那请问这有没有强制我们在一些案子不处分的案子其实我们处理过一些类似的案子但是因为就是那个程度我们在那些案子里面其实我们看到就是说你讲的这个话其实主委你要很小心因为大家会很担心因为你所谓的强制与不强制要看程度那请问程度又谁在做决定然后呢今天我的感受"},{"start":4147.113,"end":4170.248,"text":"他已经强制我了把我拉进去然后开了这一瓶这已经是强制了我的感觉已经强制了那你还要说要看强制的程度所以这个要很小心因为我们一直说公平会要给人民是信心而且现在诈骗非常的多方式非常的多元"},{"start":4171.209,"end":4193.264,"text":"人民如何受到保障這才是重點所以主委我覺得今天這個議題是給你們一個提醒因為你一直強調說強制的程度那請問強制程度是誰在判定我人民的感受還是公平會在確定還是我還要再提告"},{"start":4193.604,"end":4218.237,"text":"沒有 我們公平會當然有責任要判斷只是說那個判斷的標準我們是以一般日常生活一般人的合理的經驗來判斷在這種情況底下但是我的內心已經覺得我已經被強制了可是你不是當事者啊你不是當事者所以我覺得這個部分 主委要給人民有信心感就是說當我遇到這個問題的時候我來公平會"},{"start":4219.505,"end":4244.903,"text":"去做申訴請求協助的時候我不是得到是冷冰冰的說法說我要看強制的程度我就是因為我自己有被強制的感覺我才要尋求幫助所以這個可能我們在整個接案或是未來在回應的部分都要很小心所以給主委這樣的一個提醒因為"},{"start":4246.517,"end":4268.701,"text":"當事者跟你們判斷者這個Gap 這個落差這才是人民心裡的那一塊然後另外就是說我們一直在這一次風災的時候那地方的媒體也曾經報導過到底災害重建之後這些費用"},{"start":4270.114,"end":4285.416,"text":"因為大家知道我們台南的書店差不多都破了這個大概那麼比例之多然後大家再復原重建那請問這些已經經由媒體的報導"},{"start":4287.049,"end":4313.012,"text":"這個部分你們有去了解嗎報告委員我有責成業務單位去了解但是我們了解的重點還是說有沒有廠商利用這個機會在發災難財那有沒有進行特別是聯合烘台價格的部分因為你們去了解就會抑制他們這些動作你們沒有去主動了解他們會覺得沒有任何壓力所以你們現在了解的狀況呢"},{"start":4317.335,"end":4343.401,"text":"我们在持续观察但是因为没有特别具体的个案但是我们会去了解现在目前的市场的价格情况你们主动了解会把一些真的想要这么做的一些业者阻掉他们的一些想法保障我们这些灾民在灾后重建的一个状况所以你们主动出击主动了解这是非常重要的"},{"start":4343.956,"end":4370.885,"text":"所以我们再请公评会因为地方媒体有作战的报道那民众就会担心那也确实我们有接受到有一些民众的澄清说好像真的有类似的状况所以你们可能动作要更大是我们会持续观察后续还有很多是需要重建的个案是这个是很直接的再拜托我们主委是是那"},{"start":4371.665,"end":4390.236,"text":"還有我一直在追的公平交易法的修正草案在這個部分我一直都有提案然後這個提案就是針對幾大重點事業結合申報的門檻然後擴大聯合行為的規範範疇修正行政調查的規定還有徵定判決書的登載於新聞電子報當中還有修正違法結合"},{"start":4399.901,"end":4400.542,"text":"那现在呢进度呢"},{"start":4419.76,"end":4447.966,"text":"因為我們之前的法案是撤回現在我們在會裡面已經有另外也是持續的成立一個修法小組那已經開過一兩次會議了所以你們只有內部而已對 內部在研擬我們現在要研擬的是說那個整個修法的內容有沒有新增想要修的條文那預計呢 預計多久會從我們公平會送到行政院因為這個一定要到行政院嘛對 你們打算多久總是有一個時程表嘛"},{"start":4448.266,"end":4468.154,"text":"因為目前還在看看收集委員的意見好 你們預計要收集多久這個我很難在這邊給委員一個具體的時間點因為委員有時候意見不太一致對啊 那總是要定一個時間那一年 兩年如果委員大家意見都不一致那所以我們公平交易法這個已經那麼久"},{"start":4470.339,"end":4490.449,"text":"没有修法的部分已经那么久的一套你无法应付现在日新月异的整个所谓的联合垄断扩大联合的申报甚至是事业体的合并现在是层出不穷"},{"start":4491.69,"end":4520.411,"text":"所以现在的状况已经不比以前了那到底要多久我想我们会尽快我不希望能够我个人也不会希望拖太久就像如同委员讲的这整个市场状况改变非常大那我是尽快极大不是很大是极大是是是那当然因为是委员会制度委员的意见我必须要整合好那半年了这个会期有没有办法有可能看到你们送到行政院我不期待说你们送到立法院了"},{"start":4521.596,"end":4537.823,"text":"送到行政院好不好我们会尽量努力送到行政院让院里面去讨论因为从院里面讨论应该还要一段时间可是如果你们公评会里面都没送出来根本就一直在我们自己内部里面讨论"},{"start":4538.783,"end":4554.073,"text":"我们永远见不到天日当你行政院送出来之后那么就会有一些讨论的方向那还要一些公听会可能到时候还要收集更多外部的力量所以这还要有时间"},{"start":4555.094,"end":4579.075,"text":"所以我期待在這個會期我們可以從公平會把我們公平交易法修法草案面對現在層出不窮的整個事業合併還有聯合壟斷甚至是我們需要把一些相對的資訊趕快公告在我們的網站當中這個部分都一定要修法現在我們的法裡面是舊的"},{"start":4580.316,"end":4591.042,"text":"你無法應付到現在網路上的一個狀況所以趕快在這個會期趕快送行政院然後再進行討論我們現在朝這個目標來做好 謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝我們現在請張綺開委員資訊"},{"start":4643.138,"end":4668.824,"text":"請陳主委我們請主委謝謝委員長這個公平會的組織法我們這個7月份三讀的時候有修掉這個萬年條款然後明定要趕快三個月內補提名對不對是這個日期快到了"},{"start":4673.241,"end":4694.092,"text":"7月23總統公告嘛 所以下禮拜這時候如果又沒有補題名 現在主委也沒有 還少了一個委員 對不對那就變成兩個問題了 又違法那卓院長為了這個中選會的人選他沒有提 他在禮拜二的宴會他也總之想說他都特別道歉了"},{"start":4695.079,"end":4720.91,"text":"不要讓左院長又變成道歉的這個院長趕快提醒他這個禮拜趕快提好不好因為這是院長的職權所以不過會造成你們的人事空窗是而且不要讓他變成一次只有一次在道歉又違法提醒一下ok下個禮拜三之前你要趕快提好另外我們來關心一下鮮奶的這個問題"},{"start":4722.535,"end":4747.249,"text":"這在五月份的時候 你有說特別要立案去調查嘛來 我們看一下很多民眾啊 去買牛奶 貴三三啦你看那個生乳你買的時候啊台灣一公升是26.12塊比美國跟紐西蘭稍微高一點點可是嚴重在什麼地方你看賣出去 一公升的鮮奶台灣一公升 將近100塊耶"},{"start":4750.098,"end":4778.694,"text":"對比美國跟紐西蘭所以有人去國外說國外的牛丁怎麼這麼便宜其實是我們台灣的牛丁太貴而且很離譜你看生乳這個收購的時候價格是那麼低到了 主委你看差幾倍3.28倍所以現在造成什麼結果生產者也沒有賺到錢消費者買得非常貴那中間什麼地方出了問題"},{"start":4780.199,"end":4797.861,"text":"通路商我這個資料是引述的是上下游新聞主要來源是台灣大學動物科學系的教授習季泰 習教授他們就做了這個統計那他們就提醒了一個非常重要的重要的點中間有4成"},{"start":4800.25,"end":4815.105,"text":"的利潤為什麼中間落差這麼大價差這麼大從26塊買賣出去給我們消費者說貴這麼多85塊多將近100塊有將近4成是通路商通路商拿走了"},{"start":4816.53,"end":4844.345,"text":"通商拿走了所以等一下我們要討論一下這是不是變成一個價格的默契或者是市場的一個壟斷啊等一下我們進一步來討論好那我們再來看第二個這個也是非常嚴重的一個問題今年1月份開始紐西蘭的牛奶進來降為零關稅了現在紐西蘭進來他的價格沒有降耶還反而在漲而且幫他做了一個統計大家看到沒有大家看到沒有"},{"start":4846.398,"end":4873.93,"text":"這個第一年來這個乳品這個進口啊紐西蘭的國外的東西進來越來越來越多本來在2008年的時候大概只有2%到了去年2024的時候已經跳到28%的 量越多結果價格都沒有降 又零關稅所以啊中華民國乳業協會的秘書長方清潔就說啊 她說你如果"},{"start":4875.796,"end":4901.325,"text":"關稅已經變成是零關稅了你是不是價格應該是要降的他是不是提到說如果目前國內的這個量販超市超商等通路如果要可以調降這個上價費的話比照德國跟紐維也納歐洲國家的這個上價費啊他們這個通路啊抽成大概是20%"},{"start":4903.215,"end":4927.786,"text":"這個主委你們應該有去調查嘛我們要40所以他說如果這個有適度的調整我們台灣的牛奶不是這樣幾三三至少一瓶應該要便宜10塊錢的另外呢進口的這個紐西蘭這個液態酥啊零關稅以後它每公升至少應該比我們國產的要便宜20啊所以你看關稅降了量增加了"},{"start":4929.247,"end":4945.786,"text":"專家協準都出來講 乳業協會跟專家協準都出來講應該要講嘛 對不對好來 我們來解決問題保定我知道你去國會19歲的時候因為那時候國內消費者發起了一人一信的檢舉說這個太不合理了所以那時候你有公開承諾說"},{"start":4947.976,"end":4970.215,"text":"紐西蘭進口乳零關稅以後價格不降案子公平會要立案調查嘛 對不對是有調查了對不對對那時候你還說要去看看有沒有聯合定價的問題是好 那立案了 有立案有開始調查了對不對對 已經有調查調查目前我們在做最後的重整跟分析"},{"start":4970.882,"end":4996.75,"text":"快完成了大概什麼時候可以完成我現在先跟你講外界的質疑就是為什麼拖了這麼久5月19號到現在會不會拖太久所以今天我要很明確的話你最近要趕快把它完成第二個要公開的時候你自然要調查到幾個第一個你的調查範圍而且裡面要有所謂的項目跟你什麼時候要公佈最重要的你今天應該很明確要跟民眾講清楚已經從5月19號到現在"},{"start":4998.911,"end":5023.614,"text":"你的調查什麼時候可以完成一個禮拜內要跟民眾講清楚第二個我先講一個中間很重要的因為這裡面牽涉到的整個是跨部會對不對我牽涉到農業部你光是這個生主的收購價然後關路署他進口的成本價到底是多少還有商務司經濟部商務司他整個通路的這個價格我覺得你應該"},{"start":5025.407,"end":5049.796,"text":"都要在這個調查結果裡面要清楚的呈現這幾個價格跨部會都要你目前有調查這個嗎跟委員報告一下那個有關通路商的價格到下游那個部分從公平會的角度來看我們會尊重市場機制因為在通路行銷部分他有他自己本身的成本冷鏈運輸等等那每個通路商的成本結構一定不一樣"},{"start":5050.216,"end":5078.288,"text":"所以他最后卖给零售的价格是多少除非他们有联合定价或者说他们有一些排除竞争的手段那这部分我们可以针对联合定价或手段部分来查处但是直接去看那个价格的高低甚至于是设定一个百分比比较不适合由公平会来处理所以你只要是跨部会这几个包括你把它厘清了你的成本的问题就是你说的嘛通路到底凑成了还有市场到底有没有默契你的答案就会出来了嘛"},{"start":5080.931,"end":5097.389,"text":"因為你在5月19年清除前要去查有沒有聯合這個定價這個問題所以這次你要很明確的調查報告出來的時候要很清楚的說判斷他到底有沒有價格聯合或者是平行的這個行為我看你今天報告很重要你有提到包括移飼料這個"},{"start":5098.974,"end":5122.547,"text":"聯合壟斷這個事嘛對不對東流線台東到這個琉球你們都有去採訪對不對那你要不要變成是一個雙標你那邊都查得出來了那這邊我剛講的這是專家學者包括竹品協會他們都提出了很多的質疑嘛更重要的消費者說明明都變成零關稅了我去國外又那麼便宜對不對而且生產者沒有賺到錢喔"},{"start":5123.567,"end":5140.17,"text":"消費者買得這麼貴那我們今天的要求都非常具體這個應該跟你的調查方向也是很信任對不對我們這個聯合委員關切的這些跟競爭有關聯合行為濫用獨裁利益我們都會去調查唯一就是我剛剛跟委員報告價格的高低的部分可能不太適合由我們來做"},{"start":5141.108,"end":5152.764,"text":"你什麼時候這個調查結果可以出來我覺得跟委員報告一下我們可能還需要大概一個月的時間我們要根據我們調查的資料來做重整研析是不是可以再給我們一個月的時間你的那個題會討論題會討論題委員會討論你們就最近"},{"start":5157.169,"end":5176.47,"text":"一個月送到委員會去討論還是可以到時候就可以公開那看委員會討論的情況到時候要做什麼樣的決議很好現在今天全民有一個可以期待的答案經過了半年多的調查下個月對不對一個月後這個乳品到底有沒有降價有沒有壟斷在一個月後會公平會清楚的交代你們的調查會經過委員會討論"},{"start":5179.013,"end":5185.463,"text":"委員會調查以後委員會討論有時候委員有一些不同的意見可是討論完一定會公佈嘛是是是當然謝謝張旗開委員的質詢謝謝我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":5217.251,"end":5217.912,"text":"我們請主委委員長"},{"start":5251.162,"end":5275.288,"text":"抱歉好另外就是也針對這個近期檢討修正公平教育委員會對於公平教育法第21條案件之處理原則還有公平教育委員會辦理公平教育法第21條案件程序作業要點這個修正事實上事實上這個"},{"start":5279.775,"end":5307.441,"text":"在去年審查預算的時候113年度的預算的時候這個立法院有這個決議所以你們的辦理情形也提到是112年修正是112年修正也就是說我剛才講的這個你的報告裡面提的就是112年的按照你的這個辦理情形裡面就是112年"},{"start":5310.305,"end":5331.134,"text":"我们现在就是要检讨刚刚讲112年的修正我们看近5年诈欺案件数及财损逐年增加去年这个是2025年的一个资料去年就是指113年2024年"},{"start":5335.515,"end":5344.54,"text":"去年三大詐騙手法假投資43015件總共金額372.2億元假網路拍賣30100件金額26.2億元解除分期付款9134件金額10.3億元所以這個"},{"start":5366.232,"end":5391.646,"text":"所以我在去年就一再質詢網路詐騙特別多尤其是就你的業務來講就是假投資假網路拍賣這些都是都跟公平教育法都有關係所以看起來你這個112年修正的這個原則兩個原則顯然是"},{"start":5397.266,"end":5415.326,"text":"沒有辦法達到效果所以這樣的一個情形之下這種網路詐騙的一個普遍對台灣的人民假網拍真詐騙像這樣的一個情形這麼嚴重"},{"start":5418.069,"end":5446.456,"text":"所以公平教育法第25条事业意不得违其他主义影响教育之期之期望或显示公平之行为所以本习一再地是说希望能够修原则看起来无效修法除了修法之外是不是还有其他因应的作为这个是一定要去解决修法有时候"},{"start":5447.509,"end":5468.718,"text":"土法不足以自行這也是基本的所以這個部分到底應該要怎麼去因應真的是要好好的去公平教育委員會一定要認真的去檢討到底是怎麼樣跟委員報告"},{"start":5470.458,"end":5499.978,"text":"打詐這件事情目前是國家的重中之重那我們在行政院我們也有跨部會的分工所以像剛剛委員提到幾個詐騙性的不實廣告如果它基本上就是如果純粹是要詐欺的話那是一個犯罪的行為所以我們不會在不實廣告底下去處理它原則上是由法務部依照刑事案件來處理那當然有些個網路上的廣告的確是有不實的陳述那這部分我們都有處理在網路上的交易如果不實廣告我們也處分過很多的案子"},{"start":5500.778,"end":5529.527,"text":"那剛剛委員談到第25條欺枉或顯示公平那個條文其實我們內部有一個處理原則那在處理原則裡面我們有針對各種違法的類型我們有強列出來不過那個25條的適用是有一定的要件就是說它比較屬於一種補充法規的性質就是說其他像公平法其他條文已經有規定了或者是其他特別法規定主委我都了解行政院所謂的打詐無法了"},{"start":5530.498,"end":5553.603,"text":"现在很多的责任不管哪个部会针对打诈无法全部把这个责任弄在这个刑事刑事的话就是警察然后警察所以这个部分是一个我们必须要去深刻去检讨的部分能不能在防范与未然"},{"start":5556.232,"end":5576.532,"text":"所以防范于未然而不是它已经发生了然后省察要去处理那来不及了所以这个部分是我们要去作为一个行政院各部会各部会就你的业务来讲就公平教育委员会的业务来讲"},{"start":5577.452,"end":5605.57,"text":"怎麼樣去做防範於未然而不是說已經發生了到了警察手上已經是發生了基本上是這樣各位報告我們其實跟調查局警察局我們都有做一些宣導的活動積極的在提醒現在就是說怎麼樣讓民眾真正能夠感受到而且能夠知道而且能夠不再被騙"},{"start":5607.096,"end":5635.964,"text":"这个就是我们要你努力的地方了不然的话刚刚讲的那些数据如果已经到刑事案件很多机关都是这样我问数位发展部问其他的都是刑事案件那个已经发生了那这个刚才讲的这个数据永远不会减少因为已经发生了对不对这个数据就无法减少所以我们要怎么样让这个数据"},{"start":5639.063,"end":5662.641,"text":"所以這個部分我們要共同的去面對這個問題是 跟委員再報告一下就是對於事先防範這一塊只要網路上的廣告是屬於不實廣告基本上我們有一個網路的監控小組事實上我們都經常會在看有沒有一些不實的一個廣告出現那是目前我們在做的一個比較屬於預防性的會預防性很重要好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5664.797,"end":5668.34,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢 謝謝 謝謝主委我們現在請楊瓊英委員質詢 謝謝感謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請代理主委請主委 謝謝委員早"},{"start":5688.206,"end":5703.874,"text":"主席好我們來討論一下市場的公平性跟集中度的問題因為在全聯併購的大輪發之後大全聯那台灣的零售市場正式邁入了高度的一個集中化的時代"},{"start":5704.474,"end":5729,"text":"那我们也接到了几个供应商的工会的呈请也就是以保障毛利跟比他的其他的通路更便宜两成的合作条件那导致整个中小品牌它的溢价会失衡那在这样的情况之下即使你们在去年也开发了两千万"},{"start":5729.62,"end":5757.573,"text":"但是似乎還是沒有辦法去撼動這個市價主導的一個地位因為這個是條件說嘛所以在這樣的情況之下呢公品會你在這個核准的時候呢你有明確要求說三年內不得改變買斷的制度那現在呢已經提前來轉一個方式也就是轉為寄售它本來是買斷"},{"start":5758.934,"end":5781.107,"text":"但是呢转为寄售的这个模式那是不是表示我们公平会你当时所做的约束是兼理失灵呢请做说明当初我们付的条件是说不得变更更不利于供货商的条件所以现在问题就在于说寄售跟买断是不是对供货商比较不利"},{"start":5781.627,"end":5797.949,"text":"那我們這兩點來講第一個我們去了解結果是這個改成寄售這件事情並不是強勢的就是說供貨商仍然可以選擇那第二個寄售跟賣斷各有各的利弊所以有時候很難說你改成寄售就是不利就是不利那不利就違反了我們當初付的條件"},{"start":5798.63,"end":5815.713,"text":"所以我們會持續去注意就是說改變成寄售這個模式底下它到底是透過什麼樣的一個方法有沒有不公平競爭或是不當競爭的手段如果是它透過這種手段來強迫供貨商改成寄售當然我們就有空間可以介入那如果沒有的話這純粹是商務商彼此之間的選擇"},{"start":5817.099,"end":5833.333,"text":"所以对于这个这是公平会代理主委你现在的说法我们要看的是如果冲击到整个零售通路的一个结构尤其是让中小供应商它丧失了溢价的空间"},{"start":5834.573,"end":5858.452,"text":"那就会形成了制度性的一个退场现象我想你也不愿意看到有这样的面向那当然呢我们是怕说如果在垄断不断地在扩大的时候那整个监管的机制是不是应当要更精进请说明如果是出现委员将来变成垄断的机制这当然是公平会一个核心的重点我要去查处"},{"start":5858.612,"end":5876.361,"text":"所以這為什麼他們結合我們要去審查去觀察但是目前看起來即使是全聯或者在整個通路市場裡面看起來是競爭那當然我們也看到新型態的通路進來所以整個市場的競爭程度似乎在提升當中當然我們會不斷的我們會持續去觀察這個通路市場的變化"},{"start":5876.841,"end":5905.759,"text":"主委你讲到这个重点因为我们当然支持我们本土的产业但是要怎么样让大家都能够生存这是公品会你占的角色非常重要的一环因为现在也的确在整个市场这个变化的速度样态是非常的大所以你公品会是不是在通路合作的行为的准则你必须要有一套你的办法"},{"start":5906.423,"end":5916.444,"text":"你这个办法比如说揭露费用跟罚款那设立着你的并购持续的一个观察"},{"start":5918.726,"end":5946.417,"text":"併購或是這個相關的交易條件我們有類似的處理原則當然在公平法裡面併購這個結合這個都是我們審查的重點所以剛剛才會跟委員報告整個通路市場的結構的改變是不是會形成壟斷這個我們一定都是持續在觀察對 所以因為有這樣的陳情跟聲音你們要持續去討論這一個精進方案好 那接下來本席要請教我國深層市的人工智慧相關的競爭法"},{"start":5949.618,"end":5974.526,"text":"這個議題在你們的說明當中你首先首度針對AI產業潛在壟斷跟不公平的競爭來進行這個徵詢這也符合現在時代的一個潮流但是在內容指出說大型的AI公司它當然它有它的能力可以掌控的龐大的算力數據資源跟它的模式這個模型市場優勢"},{"start":5976.266,"end":5995.559,"text":"那但是呢如果透过结合跟联合的行为扩大来垄断的范围这就是你的功课了所以我们看到目前台湾AI的产业还是仰赖整个国际的供应链还是仰赖整个国际的供应链那如果竞争的范围"},{"start":6006.226,"end":6009.628,"text":"吃土啦我們要怎麼樣能夠讓我們本土的產業他有所政府是他的依靠嘛是他的後盾嘛那這個困境呢在工品會方面你要怎麼樣能夠好好的去盤點台灣產業鏈當中可能的市場集中跟依賴到"},{"start":6032.239,"end":6051.93,"text":"風險這些我想 本席認為這是你公平會你開始在徵詢的時候你就必須要有你的KPI指標的結果方向到底是怎麼樣所以建立一個公平跟透明的機制防止大型科技企業介於這樣子的一個生態來壟斷我想"},{"start":6054.091,"end":6081.212,"text":"这是我们本土这个AI企业我不希望本身不希望是外商吃肉台企吃土请做说明那个跟委员报告AI的发展非常快速跟动态其实就全世界来讲其实基本上还没有太多国家有针对很具体的针对AI定出很具体的一些法规那我们之所以推出这个公共的征询当然主要的目的就是如同委员所讲的我们希望了解本土的问题"},{"start":6081.932,"end":6105.415,"text":"到底有没有什么大企业滥用市场力量去排除小企业的竞争对 你在征询大概到什么时候会有一个方向呢我们的征询已经结束了那我们也收集到不少的意见你们从什么时候结束9月7号结束9月7号结束 上个月结束那你现在在整合所有的那你整合所有的资料大概什么时候会告诉我们"},{"start":6105.94,"end":6133.86,"text":"这个我现在没办法具体的一个时间点应该会有吧你有KPI嘛你既然9月7号就已经收集完毕大概一个阶段那你们应该要选个方向啊会提出一个草案不是草案提出一个大致的方向对对方向啊你大概什么时候会但是我们会要经过委员会的讨论当然当然你大概呢但是那个时间点我很难跟委员做一个具体的你们委员会什么时候会开委员会是固定星期三会开但是因为"},{"start":6134.62,"end":6161.686,"text":"固定是每個星期三都會開但是因為AI的問題很多對對對我們很怕你還是要有一個指標啊因為就像你說的啊AI的產業我們好不容易你們也提出了徵詢在9月7號徵詢完畢那完畢現在整理資料那我們還是期待啊你不能無止盡啊你比如說你三個月可以告訴我們還是多久可以告訴我們一個方向嘛那你也讓本土的產業才不會緊張啊"},{"start":6163.826,"end":6180.879,"text":"跟委員報告他有所依歸啊我們會盡快我們不會拖太久你的盡快是不會拖太久是多久因為這個有委員會的討論的時間對 當然啊委員的意見不曉得會如何我沒辦法掌控你應該是兩個月內可以給我們一個方向我們盡快好不好對 兩個月內給我們一個方向"},{"start":6183.402,"end":6211.71,"text":"對不對因為我現在還在重整對重整所以你從9月7號9月7號10月7號11月9號那你應該是在12月初可以給我們一個方向本席說的是方向我們朝這個目標朝這個目標12月初給我們這個方向那最後我給你一個功課我給你一個功課也就是我們針對於預售屋交易的這個部分本席還是非常的堅持因為還是有很多的陳情案"},{"start":6212.71,"end":6238.995,"text":"在他簽約前 他並沒有完整的建造銀本也沒有平面圖 也沒有預售屋的買賣契約書還有客戶持分的總表這些關鍵的資訊 本席認為還是在你簽約之前 必須要完整資料才得簽約是不是應當如此"},{"start":6239.86,"end":6263.548,"text":"這個我們在處理原則裡面都有詳細的規定這些都是他們要提供的就是他必要嘛但是你實務上還是我們有處罰類似的案子有處罰就是表示在整個實務的這個動作當中是沒有落實的所以這一方面請你們加強去宣導好不好不要再讓消費者再有這些陳情嘛保障消費者的一個權益嘛這是你法定要提供的啊"},{"start":6264.208,"end":6275.959,"text":"對 宣導我們都有在做我們77集都在跟業者宣導這個相關必要提議加強宣導 是是加強稽查 好不好 是是讓消費者可以安心嘛好 謝謝委員謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢 謝謝我們謝謝主委我們現在請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":6294.502,"end":6299.363,"text":"好 謝謝 先請工評會陳代理主委我們請陳主委 謝謝委員長主委早 主委那個我看了第三會期跟第四會期你們的所謂的工作報告與業務報告我覺得好像有點刻意到"},{"start":6317.15,"end":6338.822,"text":"要這個在呈現方式要規避這個或者避免立法院的監督為什麼我這樣講因為很多都是過程的描述沒有實際數據很多只是這個很抽象的一個敘述然後並沒有這個到底你裁罰多少然後主動立案有多少"},{"start":6339.582,"end":6354.134,"text":"然後有多少集合申報準博的比例等等我們需要是一個量化的數據不過量化數據當然事後跟你一樣可以但是你要提供給大家去做一個檢視嘛除非你們沒有這些相關數據資料或者你們數據資料很蒼白"},{"start":6356.567,"end":6383.287,"text":"你才不願意去呈現出來用一些文字的描述抽象的敘述去說你們做了哪些事情所以三四會期都是這樣的報告內容我覺得是不是下個會期你們的報告我認為我建議是應該做一些調整那個跟委員報告委員所提到的這些相關的數字量化其實我們都有 都有一些統計只是說因為在這邊的業務報告基於時間等等的考慮時間"},{"start":6385.275,"end":6413.449,"text":"時間不夠充裕嗎沒有 就是我們當然書面上的呈現是沒有問題所以委員會建議我們會納入考慮這本來就你應該要呈現不是說時間問題不是你可以決定時間問題主席就願意讓你做報告嘛而且我們是要需要你這個提供的數據才做一些才能對你們的工作績效做一些的監督是 我們下一次的報告就會比照辦理就是把這個相關的量化資料把它放進去而且你要有成效的報告"},{"start":6414.961,"end":6440.023,"text":"到KPI要有一個詳細的KPI的這個制度每一個你的施政項目都有個KPI的標準結案數 主動立案數 裁罰件數跟金額然後移送哪些單位比如說不實廣告關於藥品類關於這個保健食品類你要移送給衛福部對不對移送幾件"},{"start":6441.499,"end":6456.197,"text":"我就問這個例子每天就看到這個電視頻道都有這個大量這高密度高頻率長時間的所謂介於模糊這個地帶的保健食品具有這個誇張療效10秒鐘就入睡"},{"start":6461.904,"end":6470.292,"text":"這個也是不實廣告 對不對是啊 我們有處理過我們有處分過一些案子是你處分嗎有些案子是我們處分就是說他做不但誇張的"},{"start":6472.85,"end":6499.146,"text":"你搞不清楚狀況沒有 療效的部分是衛福部啦但是我很清楚但是你處分有這些不實廣告針對這個保健食品或者藥品的嗎沒有吧我是要你提供你移送移送多少件數給衛福部嘛是這些你都要呈現出來啊我才知道你到底針對不實廣告做了哪些事情是 這個我們在下一次我們會提供我看不用等到下一次你這個會後就應該提供給我們"},{"start":6501.486,"end":6523.153,"text":"我是不想用這個臨時提案來寫這本來就是應該你們要呈現的你說你都針對不實廣告做了哪些事情相關部會 比方說這個內政部管理這個不特產品銷售 房屋銷售你們移送了幾件 裁罰了幾件然後這個衛福部主管的藥品或者保健食品你們移送了幾件嘛"},{"start":6524.329,"end":6540.336,"text":"這些你都要呈現出來啊 我才知道你的績效到底符不符合這個這個大家的期待嘛你用一些抽象的概念 抽象的文字敘述 我覺得這個我沒有辦法去判斷你到底做了哪些事情所以這部分我希望說"},{"start":6541.789,"end":6570.088,"text":"主委你可以再檢討一下是 我們會改進我們會把這個東西納入我希望說下個會期這個呈現一定要以數據為主而不是你用列舉的方式把你的這些業務項目呈現出來是很精確地把每一項數據說出來另外你們這個每年春節或者是中秋有執行農畜魚的重點民生物資的產銷試礦調查"},{"start":6572.419,"end":6596.705,"text":"這個部分今年中秋過了嘛是那你們有召開房市人為操縱物價專案小組會議嗎有有有那會議的結論呢就是我們在中秋節去查過了嘛目前物價還算是並沒有出現有所謂聯合壟斷烘台物價的情況也是聯合是你們聯合還是聯合各縣市政府這是我們自己查的我們自己查了幾次"},{"start":6598.666,"end":6623.434,"text":"我們查了一個月的時間 就是分批去查那有沒有查核報告我們有查核報告啊 有我們公布在網上什麼時候去查 你說查了一個月 查了哪些品項這些都有 有你要提供出來啊我們是不是會後可以給委員你們針對中秋 你們執行這個民生物資產消失況調查的狀況"},{"start":6625.512,"end":6652.928,"text":"你們要提供一個比較詳細的資料我看寫那麼多的工作的項目到底你有沒有做好 有沒有做對另外啊 第三個問題請教深層式AI是未來一個你們的一個競爭的一個模式這些你們要跟國際合作然後你們要有前瞻性的這個相關的政策準備你們現在準備的進度怎麼樣這個徵詢外界意見就是我們在收集"},{"start":6653.838,"end":6669.264,"text":"各界的意見什麼時候會有一個初步的一個一個方案出來明顯徵詢的階段已經結束了我們現在匯整意見然後匯整意見以後我們會提到委員會去討論時間表要有啊因為要經過委員會討論所以就比較難有一個具體的時間表委員會是你召開的啊"},{"start":6669.924,"end":6685.102,"text":"是沒錯 但是委員的意見會不一樣不 總要有個時間表你不能這個無限期之後我還在收集意見 收集意見這甚至AI是瞬息萬變每天都有新的進展我們收集意見已經結束了我們現在是在延續這些意見然後再跟公平法的關係然後我們會送到委員會去討論"},{"start":6685.663,"end":6711.081,"text":"那最后是什么样的成果最后我们要看延续出来的结果怎么样就是看是不是要制定一个比较明确的原则或是执法政策方向等等类似像这样一个文件这个不要拖这是你们的业务我知道深层次AI很重要是所以赶快把我们会尽快准则把它定定出来是 我们会尽快另外你对国际交流的部分呢国际交流有没有实际的成果"},{"start":6712.202,"end":6737.01,"text":"因為我剛剛在報告有談到我上個禮拜從巴拉圭回來就是我率團到巴拉圭進行雙邊的會談為什麼選擇加拿大跟巴拉圭因為我們主要是跟他們簽訂有所謂雙方的MOU像巴拉圭是去年簽的簽的MOU我們跟巴拉圭之間雖然是邦交國但是過去有一些所謂國際合作的相關的案件調查嗎"},{"start":6738.326,"end":6757.365,"text":"目前巴拉圭是还没有但是像加拿大美国我们其实都有一些交流我比较重视跟我们贸易比较相关的这些主要贸易国日本东协国家巴拉圭也是重要因为邦交国非邦交国的部分你要去怎么样利用你们的交流"},{"start":6758.413,"end":6779.616,"text":"交流不是只有去交流之后回来就写个paper写个报告就结案你交流之后你要建立合作的机制才有意义啊交流之后一定要有具体的成果比方说你将去加拿大你去美国你要去谈的目标是什么未来我们要有一个什么合作的机制有人员的护防个案的资讯的共享这个都是在MOU里面会提到的"},{"start":6780.217,"end":6804.974,"text":"所以如果將來有一些案子是涉及到跨國之間的我們可以透過這個機制來討論像日本我們前陣子有跟他開視訊會議就是在討論這種案件或是處理原則彼此之間經驗的分享這個都有新加坡等等經驗分享是交流啦我的意思是說要有一個合作的機制出來裡面有一個想法就是說我交流完之後下一步是什麼交流完之後我常常想說交流之後要有更多的意義啊"},{"start":6805.973,"end":6831.989,"text":"否則你交流後面有更多的作為否則你交流一點意義都沒有要把那交流成果彼此互相認識有互信然後這個交換意見之後我們要有一個很完整的一個未來合作的一個方案每一個國家都要這樣去看待我想這個在MOU裡面我們都有要求或者說我們直接彼此都有要求你跟幾個國家簽訂MOU什麼你跟幾個國家簽訂MOU十個國家"},{"start":6835.444,"end":6845.158,"text":"哪十個你知道嗎像這個處長你還報告你們認為很重要如果我是主委的話我十個我都會記得起來"},{"start":6846.598,"end":6869.199,"text":"跟委員報告我們今天目前有跟日本印尼還有這個斯瓦帝尼還有加拿大還有日本還有這個巴拉圭澳洲紐西蘭這些東西我們都之間簽有一些主要跟我們在經貿合作比較密切的非邦交我這個才比較重要因為才才有可能產生合作嘛是你這個合作才有意義啊"},{"start":6870.621,"end":6898.954,"text":"所以我要去給你們一些建議往一些工作的方向做一些調整而不是做一些文字描述沒有具體的成果沒有具體的成果我就沒有辦法去檢驗你的績效還有未來工作的方向你們要知道說交流不是交流完之後就沒有了就沒有任何後續交流之後你要下一步就是合作那合作你要一個合作的方案是什麼這你們要去思考的而不是我幫你們思考謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6901.515,"end":6912.06,"text":"謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢我們請謝一鋒委員質詢謝謝我們謝謝我們待會在瑞隆委員質詢完我們就休息五分鐘謝謝好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳主委我們請陳主委"},{"start":6930.475,"end":6947.741,"text":"主委早安剛才前面有委員認為說你沒有具體的作為是因為你是代理沒有不是那個主委所以你才沒有具體的作為不是這樣的意思是這樣嗎我們是積極的在適用公平法處理公平法案件不會因為是代理不代理"},{"start":6948.101,"end":6968.376,"text":"但是我想要了解的是剛才多位委員質詢到你們7月18號開始就針對深城市AI的這個競爭法的相關的議題來徵詢各界的意見那我相信在上個月你們也收集就是截止收集了嘛"},{"start":6968.916,"end":6988.365,"text":"那就這個部分而言會不會像2021年你們在進行媒體議價法也是這樣子啊大方的就是在跟各界收集意見但是最後你們就把它給數位發展部了 是不是"},{"start":6989.946,"end":7009.123,"text":"我想媒體議價法的部分我們經過這個院內的討論最後才出現所以你們公平會是一個推沒有 我們沒有推我們一開始就表明我們本會對這個議題的立場到底是採取什麼樣的立場那就這個AI AI的部分我們算是很早其實我們已經觀察到國際間關切這個問題所以我們開始先蒐集國內對這個問題的看法"},{"start":7013.447,"end":7035.924,"text":"那目前收集完了以後我們現在在重整這些資料那看看這些意見跟我們公平法所要規範的事項有什麼樣的關聯性所以目前在這個重整階段那將來會送到委員會去討論那看看接下來那你們討論的情況是如何還沒討論啦因為現在還在分析收回來的資料你們只有在分析資料並沒有進行討論因為收集的資料很多"},{"start":7036.124,"end":7059.329,"text":"那未來一個月內會不會就是密集的進行這樣子的討論我們現在是密集的進行這個研習那研習完後一定會送到委員會去討論因為我們目前政府大力的在推廣AI的部分但是我們也發現了深層市的AI它會產生非常多的相關的疑慮"},{"start":7060.697,"end":7082.793,"text":"例如到底現在運算資源還有這些數位就是訓練的數據以及這些模型都是掌握在幾個大公司的手上那這會不會造成你們公平交易法的20條這個部分的相關的疑慮"},{"start":7083.593,"end":7108.841,"text":"這就是我們目前正在研析的就從收回來資料以後我們去看看有些個問題在國外發生但是台灣是不是有例如咧例如啊 數據的濫用或者是說有一些排他偏好的一些契約的約款從我們過去對數位市場的了解有些發生在國外的一些關切的議題在台灣事實上我們跟業者了解以後他們是認為台灣目前沒有這個情況"},{"start":7109.861,"end":7126.524,"text":"所以我們收集資料的目的就是希望能夠針對本土的問題來做一個妥適的處理但是我們現在看到了深層式AI所製造的內容有可能成為不實的廣告來欺騙消費者"},{"start":7127.125,"end":7153.804,"text":"那這有沒有違反就是公平交易法21條以及不實廣告以及25條概括性不公平的競爭這樣子的相關的疑慮21條當然我目前已經有條文在那邊所以這個條文當然也涵蓋AI如果你AI做的一些不實的廣告透過AI的技術來做一些不實廣告的一個商品的銷售那符合我們21條的規定這當然21條可以來處理"},{"start":7155.945,"end":7178.656,"text":"那是不是未來像AI所製成的廣告必須也要就是說在廣告的頁面上也要設立說這就是AI製造我想這個可以再研議因為我們公平會不時廣告主要強調是廣告的內容本身到底跟真實是不是有差距那當然是不是要揭露說這是AI做的"},{"start":7179.136,"end":7202.415,"text":"我想這邊有個問題就是假設今天我揭露AI做的或是沒揭露AI做的假設它廣告的內容是真實的那當然不會有不實廣告的問題今天其實你有揭露AI做的但是裡面是不實的那還是一樣會構成不實廣告所以我們關切的重點是在於內容本身有沒有誤導的效果但是我們現在發現主要的AI的公司都不是設立在台灣"},{"start":7203.556,"end":7221.657,"text":"他說不定也不是就是在亞洲也沒有分公司他甚至都是在美國或者是歐洲等等那我想要請問你未來在相關的就是說這些公平法的裁罰上面在美國你敢"},{"start":7222.678,"end":7234.047,"text":"對美國的公司做裁罰嗎你怎麼樣子跟他收集資訊你怎麼樣子要求他法律文件的取得以及你怎麼樣子對他拿到罰款"},{"start":7234.827,"end":7257.418,"text":"我想委員點到的是一個問題就是落地歸管的問題那有很多大型的企業它其實沒在台灣落地對 現在AI不需要在台灣所以這個當然會對執法造成一些相當的挑戰但是我們還是盡量看能不能透過一些管道包含像我們剛剛有談到國際間的合作你自己說你現在是你不會因為代理主委你就那個我覺得你現在回答有點保守"},{"start":7258.767,"end":7276.486,"text":"因为这的确是一个现实就是说落地归管的这个事情公平会其实所能够做的是有限的因为到底厂商是不是要到台湾来速册设立一个公司这个基本上跟公平会公平会比较没有空间可以去介入因为像上次的外送平台我们已经发现一次了嘛"},{"start":7276.906,"end":7306.101,"text":"對不對他還是在亞洲有總部的情況下可是現在的AI公司就如同你所說的都是在境外那甚至都是在歐美大國那在這個部分甚至我看到你剛才說的你的國際的交流的方面甚至都不涵蓋在這些相關的範圍裡面那我想要請問你你怎麼樣子做這些跨境的文件的收集以及你對於這些證據的取得"},{"start":7307.221,"end":7333.191,"text":"指法還有未來如果真正產生划繁的時候你怎麼做那如果你沒有給一個具體的這樣子的一個說明的時候那當然大家都在境外做了是不是這不會有所謂的境內境內只是被怎麼樣子被欺騙或者是被濫用不知道的消費者是不是"},{"start":7334.171,"end":7357.632,"text":"我們就剛跟委員報告我們會在既有的框架裡面盡量去取得我們所需要的執法資訊那當然跟國際的交流我們事實上在過去個案裡面都有會跟國外的主管機關來討論看他們那邊能不能提供我們一些相關的一些資訊或是討論這個分析的架構那目前因為他沒有落地所以這個就是我們在公平會在調查案子過程當中我們盡量可以做的部分大概就是這樣子"},{"start":7358.471,"end":7378.681,"text":"還有最重要的一點其實現在在國際上對於AI的這樣子的一個就是競爭法的相關的像歐盟他就是採取的非常嚴謹的就是有一個很嚴謹的基本法的這樣子分層的管理"},{"start":7379.608,"end":7391.981,"text":"對於美國英國來講他就散佈在各個法律裡面那未來台灣呢你是要散佈在各個法律裡面呢還是要一部法律"},{"start":7393.22,"end":7412.193,"text":"我想這涉及到整個AI的法制的整體的架構的問題這個公平會不適合在這個地方發言但是我們會從我們競爭法公平交易法角度來看待AI這個問題這就是為什麼我們在做這個公共徵詢的意見我們希望將來有一個政策為什麼你不適合說明因為這個AI涉及的議題太廣了人權隱私"},{"start":7412.833,"end":7431.231,"text":"對 就是因為太廣而且侵害到民眾的以及消費者的甚至是未來各個層面的爭議都有可能那在這時候公平會怎麼樣規範相關的內容呢因為我想未來將來會有一個AI基本法"},{"start":7431.832,"end":7453.764,"text":"那基本法建立的基本法現在已經有了但是基本法裡面規範的內容只是一些基本的架構對 基本的架構對於這些侵權或者是沒有沒有很就是說沒有非常嚴明的這個規範那但是我們行政院怎麼樣子做嘛那你公平會也是很重要的一個獨立機關嘛"},{"start":7455.325,"end":7478.601,"text":"所以才會跟委員報告我們會在我們的職權內來看待這個AI的議題我們會按照公平法的架構來延續AI對本土或是對整個市場競爭所可能產生的影響那在法規架構裡面看如何去處理這個問題這是我們在我們的職長範圍內可以做的部分好 謝謝謝謝先一奉委員的諮詢 謝謝謝謝主委我們現在請賴瑞榮委員諮詢"},{"start":7484.926,"end":7486.37,"text":"好 謝昭緯 請陳主委我們請陳主委"},{"start":7493.052,"end":7520.526,"text":"主委先請教就是說公平會的那個白皮書已經發布三年了那當時的修法也有提出來修法那後來又撤回可不可以講一下為什麼那什麼時候要再來提出修法白皮書公佈以後其實我們內部的規章我們是有修改譬如說相關市場的建設但事實上我們已經在做了那個對我們執法是有一些幫助修法的部分因為目前已經有委員更換借期的關係所以我們現在重新再來"},{"start":7521.266,"end":7540.903,"text":"那目前我們會內有修法小組我們還是持續在那預定什麼時候來提出修法這個我很難給委員一個具體的時間表但是我們已經開過會了我們現在目前要做的是要再重新彙整到底我們要修的條文是除了延續之前提出的版本之外我們要不要再多一點那我們再徵詢委員的意見"},{"start":7542.604,"end":7565.525,"text":"這裡2023年的6月其實已經預告了那2024年也送院了那2025年的時候卻撤回了今天6月撤回那我是希望這個要有一定的時間點因為這個其實是一個延續修法絕對沒有一次全部都修到滿意完成就是應該是你覺得差不多的可以的大家有共識的應該提出來那還沒有共識的繼續討論不然這樣子"},{"start":7567.347,"end":7584.034,"text":"再討論個三五年在下一屆恐怕都不見得提得出來是我們了解所以我們會盡快什麼時候半年內把這個就你們已經提成共識的在半年內把它提出來好不好因為我認為很多公平法不需要不斷的補強才能夠面對社會不斷的改變不斷的因應社會的需要"},{"start":7584.614,"end":7603.346,"text":"半年內提出修法內容讓立法院來審議來通過有共識的提出來這個已經2023年這個兩年前就已經有提出預告的一個版本了然後去年也有 院都已經也通過表示已經有一些有共識的東西了有共識的東西我認為應該要盡快提出來"},{"start":7603.946,"end":7631.762,"text":"當然其他部分你們認為好補強好討論你們可以分階段性的修沒有關係但是不要為了要等待全部一個你們認為討論完整的而遲遲延宕的修法的進度好不好那個主委半年內我覺得委員的更替都不應該是理由啦因為公平委本來就是持續在進行當中的齁那我認為其實應該要盡速的把你們過去有共識的東西提出來修法主委可以嗎半年內把你們有共識的提出來好不好我們朝這個目標來做啦好"},{"start":7632.742,"end":7655.534,"text":"再來我也請教一下這個現在很多的手機的遊戲他會利用假廣告來騙這個下載數因為比如像左下角這個左邊是廣告看起來吸引人但是進去之後真實的其實遊戲然後玩很多時候點免費的下載點了以後後來發現遊戲內容其實並不一樣這個部分公平會要不要去了解"},{"start":7656.912,"end":7676.979,"text":"我想這個部分是不是構成不實廣告我們可以進一步再去了解立案了解好嗎好不好立案了解因為它廣告的部分其實是並不是真實的它其實是要騙你進去點閱騙你去下載甚至騙你去做這個遊戲那有沒有涉及到不實的部分這個我希望公平會立案去調查因為這個"},{"start":7677.879,"end":7706.118,"text":"初步看起來這裡面涉及的問題就是說他其實沒有賣東西他單純只是騙你進去下載但進去之後有可能在裡面有可能在裡面賣東西了對有可能在裡面賣東西所以我說這裡面光廣告跟實際內容不實跟你進去之後有可能裡面會涉及到要不然他要賺什麼錢一方面當然賺你下載的一方面也賺這個點一方面有可能在裡面也會產生一些需要你來購買比如說有廣告跑啦但你不要廣告你就付費"},{"start":7708.079,"end":7722.709,"text":"我例子說這個我希望公平會立案去做調查好嗎是是好可以嗎一個禮拜內立案調查好嗎可以好好再要請教一下傳銷事業這也是公平會很重視的之前有一個愛美直銷的部分這個吸金很多的苦主"},{"start":7723.409,"end":7741.436,"text":"都在批評但是現在我們發現這個愛美全球事業他另外還有一家的公司叫做愛美全球國際一樣的名稱地址一樣名稱一樣都叫愛美國際愛美全球只是一個叫愛美全球事業一個叫愛美全球國際"},{"start":7743.877,"end":7760.552,"text":"愛美全球事業是詐騙的被你們認定了以詐騙處理但是愛美全球國際還在繼續在高雄還在繼續在做其他的業務他在2024年把公平會註銷到他傳銷業務但是其他的繼續做這個部分公平會要不要繼續去查"},{"start":7761.738,"end":7784.195,"text":"我想我們去了解過了這基本上是兩家是不同的公司他們傳銷的商品也不太一樣兩家是不同的公司但是在同一個地址在同一個地址而且名稱都叫做愛美全球只是一個叫做愛美全球事業一個叫愛美全球國際兩家公司都在登記在同一個地址下面那個愛美全球我們已經立案在調查了"},{"start":7784.315,"end":7800.951,"text":"好不好立案調查好不好我認為像很多的事情詐騙這麼嚴重的時候我希望公民會要更積極寧可嚴謹也不要很輕鬆的就放過去名稱不一樣啦就過去了他以後可能換了另外名稱用另外名稱繼續詐騙我已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":7804.215,"end":7817.955,"text":"愛美全球的事業跟愛美全球國際愛美全球事業有限公司愛美全球國際有限公司地址一模一樣一個是詐騙已經確認了另外一間現在只是把他的傳銷註銷掉我認為要去調查"},{"start":7819.577,"end":7843.264,"text":"如果他是同一批人同一群人一樣在做同樣的事情的話你們應該積極的作為不要等到很多人被詐騙了之後然後才開始在處理這件事情我們會去調查好不好立案調查你要調查結果一樣一個禮拜內有一個初步調查結果讓我知道一下好不好好我們讓委員知道另外歐盟跟美國現在都在認定蘋果稅就是說他們認為涉嫌到了違反數位市場法"},{"start":7844.444,"end":7859.131,"text":"這個罰了5億歐元大概170億台幣左右啦也就是說你一定要買這個蘋果你一定要用他的這個支付的方式才能夠支付那對於這個部分我們的公平會我們的政府有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":7861.508,"end":7888.206,"text":"苹果税的部分当然这方面我们有去了解那欧盟如同委员刚刚所讲欧盟是以违反的数位市场法这是一个特别针对数位平台所做的立法那当然我们国内目前我们没有数位市场法所以我们会在既有的公平交易法架构底下去了解它那数位市场苹果税的意思就是说它针对这个在里面消费的要抽30%还有15%那我们了解是说每一个厂商其实他抽的税比率是不一样"},{"start":7888.906,"end":7911.158,"text":"那你直接去對蘋果稅去用公平法處理的話當然每個國家的法律制度不一樣啦有些國家是刻有法律依據的但是在公平法的架構底下直接去以稅太高或是收的費用太高來介入的話在公平法裡面我們是比較傾向於就是說不要直接去干涉那個價格決定但是我們會關心這個所謂的蘋果App Store裡面"},{"start":7911.698,"end":7932.005,"text":"相關的這些交易行為我的意思是說當我們越來越多人都使用蘋果的手機的時候那這樣的行為的時候當歐洲當美國都有認定都有在做處理的時候我們的政府應該要有所作為我們是有一些我們是有在進行了解其實有在調查我看到你們2022年其實有立案做了調查有結果嗎"},{"start":7932.765,"end":7962.052,"text":"有結果嗎現在還沒有結果但是快了主委我講的只是說2022年調查現在2025年三年調查過去了人家美國跟歐盟早就具體行為了啦那我們都立案調查三年過去了還在很快又有結果我認為這都太慢了我希望更快的有具體的行為來讓國人感受到我們政府對這件事情是有感而重視的美國跟歐盟已經在行動了而我們研議了討論了三年還在研議當中我希望"},{"start":7962.692,"end":7988.755,"text":"我希望就如同剛剛講的我也希望在最短的時間內這半年內你剛剛說的半年內要提出相關修法該修的法該補強就補強公平我也要有作為讓人民感受到作為我認為這都是很好的方法主委是代理主委我認為其實這個時候是展現你作為很好的時候啦好不好我希望半年內該立的法該修的法把它完成同時我也希望半年內的時候我們跟參考歐盟跟美國我們認真來面對這樣的問題"},{"start":7990.637,"end":7993.644,"text":"認真來思考這樣的制度好不好好 謝謝謝謝賴銳榮委員質詢謝謝主委我們現在休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8019.522,"end":8047.878,"text":"那些委員連那個公平的競爭單位的性質都沒搞清楚大家不知道國務院的這個事情"},{"start":8054.974,"end":8072.722,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8073.106,"end":8079.613,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8100.147,"end":8106.39,"text":"所以我"},{"start":8124.025,"end":8125.947,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8128.729,"end":8146.852,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8165.36,"end":8170.323,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8172.947,"end":8173.147,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8186.631,"end":8199.395,"text":"請不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":8220.44,"end":8221.04,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8240.319,"end":8246.242,"text":"好,我們來試試看。"},{"start":8260.564,"end":8281.265,"text":"昨天那邊是嗎?其實現在問題是往進一步,往進一步開始,就是我們還要做什麼配合讓它延遲它是第一個講法,它是第一個講法,所以後來還會陪我去實施他們的服務,你還會繼續做,我現在會給你當地改延續他們,我還要提到這幾個,你會延續他們的話"},{"start":8329.088,"end":8349.801,"text":"謝謝 我們現在開始開會我們請陳超明委員質詢 謝謝首先我們請公平會陳代理主委我們請陳主委 謝謝"},{"start":8355.496,"end":8374.287,"text":"陳副委員早陳副委員好今天聽來聽去第一個我要請教你一個問題關於多層次的行銷好像這個問題一直存在那多層次的行銷以前就是老死費一層轉過一層來賺這個差價的錢來累積這個利潤"},{"start":8381.992,"end":8393.65,"text":"像老鼠會一樣的話就是以前有美國的安利公司引進進來所以造成一段時間的一個轟動他只要再鑽這個資訊廠"},{"start":8396.129,"end":8409.967,"text":"其實這個演變裡面你仔細看到台灣的詐騙集團所有的子資有很多都是根據多層次行銷在做事一層一層的缺乏那今天這個問題資訊時代那麼發達"},{"start":8413.351,"end":8429.152,"text":"那我們的網路行銷或是電商已經這麼普及了所以你這個多層次的行銷我覺得人都能接受網路的行銷各方面"},{"start":8430.073,"end":8456.786,"text":"這個不要多層次啊不一定要寫一個美國人美國公司安利公司所帶來的因為以前我們是他們講什麼我們做什麼我認為啊多層次的行銷稍微改一改名字改一改頂多兩層三層不然這種惡劣的風氣不時的現在一直存在考慮一下基本的原因在這個地方你看我怎麼樣"},{"start":8458.267,"end":8478.788,"text":"現在資訊是很快的我知道 跟委員報告一下 這業者要用幾成來行銷這是我想業者營業之一我真的想該改的時候改 這有時候引起了很多投資的詐騙其實這個根源都在從這邊發生了 大家了解這個結果好好考慮 好好構思 好好改變"},{"start":8480.004,"end":8492.095,"text":"我們基本上都有在監管你都有 我相信你不然你現在會留著當代理執委什麼時候要升如果體面的人權像你這樣的話我們就會直指通過了好不好再來你們只要公平教育法裡面遏止"},{"start":8504.55,"end":8525.365,"text":"限制的竞争不公平的竞争其实高通事件我一直在讲这个世界越大的公司台湾都不敢得罪什么就好像高通现在在中国大陆被调查欧洲也跟他罚款日本也跟他罚款韩国也跟他罚款只有台湾最特别"},{"start":8528.242,"end":8547.634,"text":"華樂7億美金210億你曉得高通在台灣的對手聯華科四星沒有得到補資7億美金他說用來補償那這個案子啊已經大概在112年結束了那我們政府也沒有擔當國科會 經濟部 國科會政府說很好喔他帶來很大的利益"},{"start":8556.431,"end":8582.819,"text":"美國人是很現實的是講利益的所有200多億要是給台灣幾家公司來做來研發還留在台灣你們寫出來的報告裡面到底實際的成效是怎樣國科會講好經濟部講好我相信他們不敢講不好但是你公平委員會竟然沒有表示一件到底好不好"},{"start":8583.851,"end":8605.28,"text":"我覺得莫名其妙所以這個地方大家不敢得罪為什麼你們裡面有兩個公民教育落選的話都是跟這個案子有關係除了李美職委另外那個落選的跟前年跟這個都有關係所以這歐羅博借不得這樣做專門求台灣人"},{"start":8608.252,"end":8629.268,"text":"連以外的人不以家人好好研究我一直對這個案件我覺得非常地不滿這個世界變成大則恆大以台灣的立場什麼都不敢講美國來講 日本來講 歐洲來講我們就乖乖地投降 招他們來我希望你有肩膀一點 有擔當一點"},{"start":8631.26,"end":8655.915,"text":"以後看到這樣的情形不要說有人在那個你們不表示意見這個公平 你們的委員就當不成了你看我怎麼樣我想高通的案子我們會持續觀察如果他還要一些濫用市場體會的行為我跟你講 那個公司是很你去問電子業是很二把賣多少都要要求他的條件你問他獨佔的市場"},{"start":8658.837,"end":8679.706,"text":"再来今天很多人问到关于生存式AI还有AI政策问题容然跟高通一样大则宏大他把基本的地毯盘好了但是这一些就是要靠台湾来生产的伺服器晶片才有办法造就他们的网口"},{"start":8680.646,"end":8704.286,"text":"这里面已经发生了一个问题像马斯克对苹果跟OpenAI提告为什么他认为苹果iPhone不公平的偏袒OpenAI的那个聊天的机器人ChapGPT的时候这个已经在形成了那台湾占有重要地位我们政府在推展"},{"start":8705.407,"end":8730.576,"text":"我們生成AI還有邊緣AI的運算我們自己也要一套把台灣的地位建立起來這幾年可能會投資幾千億在這個邊緣AI的邊緣運算跟生成的AI運算你太早來研究這個這個你制定下來不一定他們會照我們的因為這個已經很其實很明顯就是"},{"start":8732.318,"end":8760.244,"text":"歐洲 中國大陸美國已經開始在打拚這個市場看誰在領先債但是我覺得你關於法律的規定你們要去抓的時候多考慮台灣一點台灣現在正在要蓬勃發展而且要把生存式AI跟邊緣AI當為台灣另外一個軟體的主力債我只是說建議你好好考慮一下"},{"start":8761.144,"end":8781.078,"text":"你丟出問題表示你很關心但是你一定要收集好不要以外國的標準來用台灣的標準我們要稍微照顧台灣的標準把台灣的好處列在我們的法規裡面如果我們先列在前面我們就有抵擋 抵抗的效率在"},{"start":8781.978,"end":8799.551,"text":"我想這是為什麼我們要做公開徵詢然後收集意見以後當然在整個過程當中我們會特別關注這裡面有排除你記得法令不一定在歐美我們有一個麻煩因為歐美那個是最先的法令都沒有想到台灣因為未來我們自己發展的一個環境在"},{"start":8800.191,"end":8815.239,"text":"好不好先綁在前面照顧AI一點有力的我們先列在前面不要前半被他吃掉好不好這個是立法一個非常重要的一個精神在好不好你努力加油謝謝謝謝陳超明委員的諮詢謝謝主委我們請鄭振淺委員諮詢謝謝"},{"start":8830.142,"end":8848.076,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下陳代理主委請陳主委謝謝陳主委好我想先請教一下如果說有人檢舉之後我們大概多久會立案"},{"start":8849.008,"end":8870.969,"text":"有針對公平會有關的一個案子當然檢舉以後我們會看市政的程度那我們可能會進一步去了解了解以後覺得有立案必要我們就會立案一般大概要多久時間如果資料也很充分也很清楚如果資料非常充分我們一看大概就有嫌疑的話我們可能當場立即就會立案立即立案是不是OK 這聽起來非常的有效率"},{"start":8871.75,"end":8897.768,"text":"那個我要特別講一個案子其實因為我們辦公室在6月12號的時候收到民眾的一個檢舉而且好幾個民眾一起到辦公室來針對那個會眾智能販賣機這個案子然後我們當天的時候6月12號他們到辦公室來呈現的時候我們就直接把資料送到了公平會這邊的時候你知道他們什麼時候才開始立案開始啟動嗎"},{"start":8899.158,"end":8925.201,"text":"因為這個加盟事件有時候我們要比對他提供的實踐到底跟我們處理原則是不是比對了所以有時候實踐上會拖一點他拖了四個月你知道嗎那我們上個禮拜公平會已經要開始做業報要質詢了上個禮拜才開始約了業者過來這過了四個月當中的時候我不知道還有多少的民眾陷入這樣的一個陷阱當中"},{"start":8928.065,"end":8951.7,"text":"我們你知道在網路上面已經有好多的群組社群上百人大家在裡面分享他們如何的被匯眾給欺負那這樣的狀態我們竟然還要等四個月的時間才開始立案調查然後這四個月當中有多少的民眾在踩到這個坑裡面去我們不曉得"},{"start":8953.431,"end":8966.062,"text":"從六月到十月這四個月的時候我不知道公平會在做什麼針對這個部分的時候我希望主委這邊去好好瞭解一下然後針對這個案子的時候我好好的去"},{"start":8967.304,"end":8992.654,"text":"了解這個細節因為有上百個人已經組成了一個這樣子的一個社群到我們辦公室來的時候也超過兩位數的人到我們辦公室這邊來陳情結果六月份我們把這個案子送到我們公平會公平會現在四個月之後才開始做我不知道有這麼多的群眾在這四個月當中踩到這個坑裡面算公平會的嗎"},{"start":8993.934,"end":9017.223,"text":"那個跟委員報告這個案子當然我們立案啦不過當然謝謝委員的提醒啦我們會我事後我會注意到這個問題但是因為我們提供給你們證據非常的清楚因為針對我們公平會這邊的時候有一個公平交易委員會對於加盟業主經營行為案件的處理原則他裡面明顯的違反他沒有給10天的一個合約審閱期啊你知道嗎"},{"start":9018.143,"end":9044.7,"text":"然後也沒有給五天的一個契約審閱期都沒有然後這樣的狀態你們還覺得資料不夠完整讓他們拖了四個月去坑更多的一個民眾針對這個部分希望主委這邊趕快去追究出來它裡面其實有非常非常多的一個案子包括可能一開始用詐欺的方式告訴他們你只要繳85萬點他幫你找然後你到時候只要等著分紅就好"},{"start":9045.28,"end":9062.255,"text":"他其他後續的東西他就幫你做你只要出85萬後續你就等分紅這樣的狀態竟然都還可以拖四個月針對這個部分的時間本席是非常的不諒解啦所以希望主委這邊趕快去針對這部分去查一下到底是怎麼樣一回事好不好"},{"start":9065.086,"end":9083.551,"text":"那麼另外接下來我想針對台泥這個案子因為台泥這個案子公平會這邊的時候用了一個寬恕條例讓檢舉台泥的業者得到多少的寬恕我不曉得重點是北高行完全打臉了公平會"},{"start":9085.069,"end":9107.765,"text":"公平會處罰台尼的案子完全被駁回五千萬另外還有一個兩千萬的案子全部都被駁回然後北高行直接講到說公平會的證據不足裁量理由的不明確甚至於連裁罰金額到底怎麼樣算出來都沒有做詳細的資料說明然後沒有影音檔"},{"start":9109.764,"end":9136.954,"text":"然後也沒有譯文就直接裁罰針對這個部分主委要不要做個說明一下我想聯合行為的案子的處理證據的收集還有這個事證的調查本來就是比較難度比較高但是我們在處理個案的時候一定是盡全力的把證據收集好那這個案子我想裡面有涉及到當然有事實面的問題可能法院跟我們的看法不一樣也有法律面的問題就是到底什麼情況底下構成聯合行為的合議"},{"start":9137.794,"end":9147.744,"text":"董高興直接講說你們沒有付市政你知道嗎你們都沒有付市政然後如果這樣的情況如果同業當中他們用了一個寬數條款然後來開始構陷同業爭取減罰這樣的狀態你們買單嗎"},{"start":9154.488,"end":9181.341,"text":"那個寬恕政策的政策本來就是希望藉由提供減罰的方式所以這是必然一定會有這樣的情況但是問題就是說法院對這個事情的看法可能跟我們有點不太一樣OK 那我想問因為10月1號北高行判決下來的時候你們什麼時候收到這個文我們這個禮拜收到了這個禮拜收到有20天的一個那個"},{"start":9184.256,"end":9210.911,"text":"我們應該會上訴你們會決定上訴我們會上訴那我們希望公平會在處理所有的裁罰案件的時候要有很清楚的一個理由因為北高興這邊直接講說你們沒有附事證那感覺是沒有查清楚就開罰還是說沒有準備充分就去打這個官司我們希望公平會這兩個部分都能夠把它好好的處理我們會盡量在這兩點去釐清希望法院能夠接受我們的觀點"},{"start":9212.192,"end":9235.109,"text":"另外因為這邊的時候有特別提到說我們在這一次的時候整個罰款公示其實並沒有提供我想請教過去五年公平會裁罰的重大案件的時候大概有多少件你們之後給我一個詳細的書面資料我想知道裁罰在一千萬以上的你們的一個量處的依據跟整個計算邏輯是什麼一併給我好不好"},{"start":9236.062,"end":9252.244,"text":"我以為是要那個相關的數字相關的數字資料對就是這五年的所有的財發統計數字那我想知道一千萬以上你們的量儲的一個發放的公式是然後另外一個部分我想請教一下就是"},{"start":9255.462,"end":9260.63,"text":"2024年你們也做了一個很重要的裁罰就是針對全聯罰他們2000萬因為他們在併購大論發的時候有承諾不採最惠客戶的政策結果顯然他們違反了"},{"start":9270.784,"end":9296.975,"text":"現在他們違反了然後你們也罰了兩千萬那我想說是罰了兩千萬之後全年就可以繼續用他們的一個最惠客戶政策的時候繼續壓迫所有的供應商因為很多的供應商 品牌商其實他們非常非常的意見覺得說在這樣的一個全年發展出來的寄售制而且全面使用寄售制的時候讓他們的生存產生很大的壓力我想針對這個部分的時候"},{"start":9298.436,"end":9313.562,"text":"那個主委可不可以講一下接下來怎麼處理全年的問題針對剛剛委員所談到那個稅惠國待遇的那個價格的部分我們除了處罰他以外其實我們要叫求他要停止所以他其實是不能再做那他如果繼續做呢繼續做我們當然繼續罰"},{"start":9315.103,"end":9342.503,"text":"多久罰一次如果他有違法的事證我們經過調查的確有屬實違反我們當初所要求的雖然我寄授是持續的在做的時候你們每個禮拜罰一次嗎寄授跟那個賣斷是另外一個問題理解寄授跟賣斷的話因為他涉及到是我們在當初結合所以他只要說他如果說繼續採取最惠客戶政策的時候你們會持續的罰多久罰一次就是違法事情經過委員討論認定是真的是違反了我們當初要求就還是可以再處罰"},{"start":9343.143,"end":9371.338,"text":"OK好理解那最後我再丟一個問題就是針對那個台製電的問題因為台製電是政府政策推出來希望讓開發商可以去融資然後讓小公司可以買到綠電基本上利益良善可是因為總經理社會社攤的時候相關的問題的時候針對台製電他們接下來如果是壓價購電或者是提高售價這個部分我希望"},{"start":9371.798,"end":9391.832,"text":"那個公平會這邊有一個很清楚的一個立場我們在這個案子決定通過以後我們在新聞稿裡面有特別強調這個案子雖然通過但是事後我們還是持續觀察業者有沒有進行違反的這個中立性原則跟歧視性原則特別是針對那個買方價格的部分我們去看有沒有濫用市場地位的問題"},{"start":9393.392,"end":9407.978,"text":"因為這個部分對整個台灣的綠能的一個生態系來說是很重要的那我們希望公平委員會這邊能扮演更好的角色不要讓相關的人持續在當中當章玩法好不好謝謝 謝謝曾振淺委員的諮詢謝謝 謝謝主委 謝謝我們現在請黃國昌 黃國昌委員諮詢謝謝主席 馬上有請代理主委"},{"start":9421.267,"end":9449.826,"text":"我們請陳主委 謝謝委員長主委早公民交易委員會現在有幾個委員目前事實上有五位法定人數有幾位 七位五位現在運作有沒有問題運作上是有點還OK啦但是就是有時候會有委員譬如說利益衝突要迴避等等那如果利益衝突要迴避的話 員額夠不夠"},{"start":9451.308,"end":9477.316,"text":"目前都還夠目前在各會裡面出現這樣的情況所以我們如果把公平交易委員會組織法本會自委員7人改成5人你贊不贊成這個我沒有意見這個是現在就變成的是公平交易委員會你目前是代理主委是一個委員會裡面要有幾位委員才可以好好運作你應該要有你的看法我們是實際的委員數的過半"},{"start":9479.295,"end":9505.877,"text":"對啊 所以我就說嘛如果五位委員可以運行順暢的話是不是就不用提名了我還是希望就是人數多一點可以多元的討論會比較好OK那按照公民教育委員會組織法現在缺額的兩位什麼時候行政院院長應該要完成補提名根據修法後的規定是三個月吧是 所以什麼時候要完成補提名應該是在這個月吧這個月什麼時候"},{"start":9507.519,"end":9528.109,"text":"這個是院長的職權所以我也不沒有這是法律的規定這不是院長的職權陳主委我也是說具體的日期當然啊你是法律人你也是代理主委你應該要關心這個委員會裡面第一個現在的人數夠不夠第二個什麼時候應該要提名"},{"start":9530.267,"end":9557.5,"text":"委員的作業提名應該行政院在處理所以這部分我先問嘛 依照法律的規定什麼時候要完成提名10月23會依法嗎還是行政院院長會違法先違法然後再跟立法院跟社會道歉就像中選會一樣台灣是法治國家嗎"},{"start":9559.465,"end":9582.04,"text":"我們的行政院院長帶頭違法能混就混能拖就拖等我們到總質詢有機會問他的時候才說跟國會跟社會致歉戴主委你是法律人嗎在一個法治國家裡面"},{"start":9583.584,"end":9607.859,"text":"行政院院長享有優於一般公民的特權嗎行政院院長可以不守法嗎可以嗎請交代李主委當場法治國家就是依法行政啦所以行政院院長可以帶頭違法嗎我覺得這是行政院院長的職權他怎麼去行使這是我們要尊重他所以他違法我們也要尊重"},{"start":9609.403,"end":9635.894,"text":"是嗎 我沒有這樣想所以這是我的問題啊公民會是獨立機關啊挺直腰桿啊違法就違法啊行政院院長就沒有優於一般公民的權利啊他可以帶頭違法一般人就要守法那哪門子道理啊"},{"start":9640.987,"end":9663.637,"text":"那如果公平會是現在這樣子的狀態 行政院院長帶頭違法我們今年要處理公平會的預算那我現在問題來啦那我們應該給的人事費是七個委員的還是五個委員的立法院該怎麼審議"},{"start":9669.485,"end":9697.195,"text":"你有提醒院長跟院長反應還缺兩個人請他依法提名嗎我想院長應該都有一定的管道可以讓他知道這件事情他有沒有管道我不知道啦他反正就一副死豬不怕滾水燙的態度啊我就爛怎麼樣我就不提怎麼樣我有說錯嗎"},{"start":9700.02,"end":9725.465,"text":"下一個問題主席站起來我很快問完啊2022年全聯病大論發的案子人事同意權審查我有問過這一題 洪才龍搶索全聯三年每年捐3億聯合報小社論寫說要企業不樂之捐公平會生育賠帳兩個問題第一個問題"},{"start":9732.076,"end":9759.1,"text":"到目前為止當初負的負擔履行完沒有全年都有按照這個規定負擔來履行第二個當初用這種不樂之圈委員藉由同意權行使的過程當中開口搶所不樂之圈過了這個併購案到目前為止公平會認為過了這個併購案對消費者權益的保障是提升還是下降"},{"start":9761.343,"end":9781.625,"text":"如果就消費者的部分我們關心的當然是結合以後市場力量有沒有影響到價格目前看起來在終端的價格部分是競爭的所以對消費者是有利的我不敢說有利但是至少沒有看到有限制競爭的效果出現主席站起來我只提醒最後一件事公平會權限很大"},{"start":9782.694,"end":9805.854,"text":"特別是企業 結合或聯合行為等等你們罰與不罰之間 准與不准之間涉及到的商業利益都非常的大正是因為有這麼大的權限委員在行使這些權限的時候請提醒貴會的委員紅柴龍這一種 帶德的行為 濫權的行為希望不要再發生 可以嗎"},{"start":9807.204,"end":9816.268,"text":"謝謝委員提點 我想依法行政是每個委員都會注意到的謝謝黃國昌委員的諮詢 謝謝謝謝陳主委的諮詢備詢我們現在請呂毅林委員諮詢謝謝主席 請代理主委陳主委我們請陳主委 謝謝"},{"start":9839.019,"end":9851.025,"text":"主委 近年來多層次傳銷的在我們國內已經迅速的擴張了這個版圖那根據我們公平會在2024年多層次傳銷的這個事業經營的這個狀況的報告我們看到這個多層次傳銷它一年的銷售額高達了"},{"start":9860.43,"end":9875.009,"text":"零五十五億所以是相當經濟的規模那多層次傳銷的管理法它現在都是用報備制在報備制的執行當中我們看到很多違法的情形變成是假傳銷徵吸金"},{"start":9877.111,"end":9902.107,"text":"那我們舉例來說的話最近有發生這個爭議的就是愛美全球失業公司他在113年3月的時候跟我們公平會來做報備在今年114年7月的話就報停了所以我們很多民眾都質疑這個就是真詐騙那你們有沒有去關心到底受害者有哪些受害者損失的金額有多少有去做一個調查嗎"},{"start":9905.442,"end":9921.911,"text":"還是你事不關己沒有 關於犯罪的部分我們已經有請法務部去進行調查那至於愛美公司這個行為有沒有違反多層次傳銷辦法我目前已經有立案在調查立案調查所以你對於受害的人有多少或者是金額有多少不知道受害人是有一些數目的225人225人 金額呢總共是7900萬7900萬因為我們看到"},{"start":9929.659,"end":9937.846,"text":"公平會針對於這個我們整個多層次傳銷裡面你要看到的是不時廣告然後"},{"start":9938.993,"end":9961.127,"text":"跟消費者有糾紛的所以在這種情況之下你們要去執行這個管理辦法的話要怎麼樣去深入執行才能夠保護到這個傳銷商又能保護到消費者這是讓你們公平會要去執法的部分可是我們沒有看到公平會有確實去執法那尤其是我們看到這個114年8月報備的廠艙傳銷商有384家這5年來總共發生"},{"start":9968.611,"end":9979.757,"text":"違法的就有111件等於三家就有一家違法所以為什麼不能把報備制改為許可制我們嚴格管理一勞永逸"},{"start":9981.417,"end":10005.503,"text":"我想因為當初法律我們這個多層次傳媒官要採取報備制主要是在尊重市場機制跟一定程度的監管之間取得一個平衡因為畢竟這個是一個行銷的方式我們原則上還是要尊重業者之間的願望主委你們還是老是說法就尊重市場機制競爭公平的方式但是你是執法單位你要怎麼樣去嚴格積極的去執法"},{"start":10007.563,"end":10025.83,"text":"你要說出來在現行的法規之下報備不報備變更報備不來報備這個我們都有處分就是你如果被如果有這樣違反多層次傳銷管理辦法規定我們都是會依法來處理所以諸位多層次傳銷的管理辦法第38條裡面的設立就是多層次傳銷"},{"start":10027.39,"end":10052.887,"text":"保護這個基金會你們設立這個保護基金會對不對就是傳銷事業跟傳銷商當中有任何糾紛的時候你們可以來訴訟幫忙訴訟跟待場的待位求償的部分嘛這些你都會來做對不對但是我們看到我們384家裡面我們的傳保會裡面完成的只有189家有做輔導佔的比例還沒有過半"},{"start":10054.181,"end":10080.572,"text":"所以有繳納這個保護基金的傳銷商也只有2634人佔比不到1%所以諸位你怎麼去嚴格執法呢根本報告一下這個輔導的部分因為大的傳銷公司他們機制本身內部都有相當完整的一個輔導的機制所以未必會來運用到傳保會這方面的機制但是我們會積極的跟傳保會來合作看如何去輔導這個業者"},{"start":10082.372,"end":10106.426,"text":"主委我特別去研究這個保護基金會這保護是要保護誰傳銷商那為什麼他們都不來交保費保護基金的會費你們設定叫保護基金講起來就好像保護費那他們發生事情了你們實施了什麼功能去保護他們"},{"start":10107.444,"end":10125.771,"text":"就了解就是他們沒有繳這個費用基本上還是可以實施還是可以來請公署長保費所以大家不用繳你還會保護他嗎如果一年的產值的話有20億要繳400萬的保護基金欸不低欸 不少欸但是你沒有保護到他們啊"},{"start":10127.492,"end":10143.087,"text":"沒有保護到他們啊所以他們沒有來幫你繳這個保護基金也沒有來跟你繳保護費也沒有來繳會費都沒有所以質疑了公平會的能力效力是不是"},{"start":10144.421,"end":10167.512,"text":"我想就剛跟委員報告了那個輔導的部分除了這個船保會在做的以外其實大規模有制度的所以這整個市場的機制有問題了可不可以改為許可制每一年每一次委員都會問你可不可以改許可制為什麼不能改許可制重點審查一撈永逸不然你看你報備了這麼多家384家就111家都違法"},{"start":10171.565,"end":10199.948,"text":"你能如何處理你們的功能就等到建報發生了再來做亡羊補牢也沒有辦法處理所以許可制是一勞永逸 敢不敢沒有 其實平時我們都來做業務的調查業務的一個督導啦這個我們隨時會注意到有沒有違法所以要回歸到源頭啦只有許可制才可以從源頭來管理管控還可以控制整個機制不然的話 真的是假傳銷真榨財你沒有辦法防範欸"},{"start":10200.998,"end":10206.021,"text":"那你要討論我就請教你一個問題好了消費者今天如果遇到廣告不實所導致的消費糾紛請問他要跟哪一個單位來投訴請問消費者發生這件事情要跟哪一個單位來投訴"},{"start":10225.305,"end":10250.495,"text":"如果是它是不實廣告的話當然我們是要受理是公平會那是消費糾紛呢消費糾紛就是所以消保會嘛那消保會所以消保會跟公平會功能是不是重疊了我想還是不太一樣這是一件事情耶還是不太一樣不實廣告讓消費者損失它發生消費糾紛耶這是一件事情兩個單位你們永遠都互踢皮球嘛"},{"start":10251.744,"end":10263.525,"text":"所以大家合併好了沒有 消保費的部分比較傾向於個案跟個別消費者受害而且消保費的立場會比較傾向於保護消費者就是有不實廣告才會有消費糾紛我拿到東西 我的權益受損了"},{"start":10264.605,"end":10292.972,"text":"但是本會處理不實廣告是從市場不公平競爭角度去切入啦那跟消保會還是不太一樣主委我認為還可以是原意啦是不是要合併啦反正你們人員七個人現在有五個人啦那消保會的話也是啊所以你們的功能是一樣重疊不如研議看看可不可以合併讓你們的功能可以發揮讓你們的效率可以達到保護我們的傳銷商我們的消費者好不好謝謝委員指導我們會再注意這個問題"},{"start":10295.457,"end":10321.754,"text":"謝謝謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢謝謝謝謝主委後我們現在請何新淳何新淳何新淳委員不在我們請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在我們請馬文君馬文君馬文君委員不在我們請林楚瑩林楚瑩林楚瑩委員不在我們請徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在我們請林思明林思明林思明委員不在那個張家俊委員"},{"start":10341.084,"end":10342.025,"text":"兩位委員都在路上不好意思 我們現在電梯很難等我們等一下 兩個委員都卡在電梯"},{"start":10367.779,"end":10382.86,"text":"待會哪一個委員先到我們請哪一個委員先質詢我們現在等電梯都非常長的時間大概等六七分鐘常常有的所以不好意思等一下"},{"start":10428.22,"end":10443.513,"text":"好 我們請張家俊 張家俊委員質詢號 謝謝感謝主席 我是請那個代理主委 謝謝請陳主委 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":10446.482,"end":10474.038,"text":"陳主委好張委長我看到你們這次的業務報告提到就是公平會正式在研究這個生成式AI相關的競爭法法規的這個議題喔那也對外徵詢意見那這點我要表示肯定喔因為這個新時代喔非常多的新工具那也需要新的規範喔那當然從生成文字然後圖片影音喔"},{"start":10474.699,"end":10489.516,"text":"AI技术变化非常非常的快现在短短几年就已经都普及到整个市场我想要请教一下主委针对AI在市场上的实际应用你们后续有什么具体的规划跟行动方向吗"},{"start":10490.2,"end":10514.321,"text":"跟委員報告我想委員知道我們對外公開徵詢意見那目前意見已經回來了那目前我們內部在重整這些相關的意見然後思考它到底跟公平交易法的關係有哪些接下來我們會把分析的結果送到委員會去討論討論完了以後我們會朝著是不是有發布一個處理原則或政策說明提出一個方向性的文件出來所以目前大概規劃是這樣"},{"start":10515.242,"end":10541.692,"text":"了解那目前這個AI應用中最明顯也最棘手的就是不時廣告的生成喔那我想要知道的是說像現在網路上充斥著用AI生成的這個名人代言影片啊聲音啊表情啊幾乎都一模一樣好像是你現在看到像這個陳美鳳AI陳美鳳喔代言的保養品啊甚至就有這個知名的這個"},{"start":10544.153,"end":10565.284,"text":"社長就是像謝金河社長呀藝人啊推出這個投資課程都是被冒用的然後都是假的消費者是分不出真假那名人的這些權益也受損那市場信任嚴重被侵蝕這一點你們有什麼樣子具體的行為嗎"},{"start":10566.378,"end":10586.548,"text":"我想不管是不是AI或不是AI我想不實廣告重點是在於你廣告呈現的內容跟實際是有出入了然後這個出入會導致消費者做出錯誤的決定所以假設今天有這樣的一個冒名做一個不實的見證不實的廣告我們既有的公平交易法的不實廣告規定我知道但你們要怎麼樣去協助他們揭發"},{"start":10587.668,"end":10606.672,"text":"你知道嗎 就是不是揭發就是你要怎麼樣判你要主動出擊啊你不能等人家來他也不知道啊不實廣告我們隨時都有在監控是 你要去努力監控而且這個AI的生成的部分它跟真的一樣搞不好你自己的偵查的人員都被騙了我們會監控但是一旦發現有問題你要怎麼分析是它是AI生成的呢你們有相關的技術嗎因為你看連台大院長吳明賢"},{"start":10616.394,"end":10643.602,"text":"都被AI為影片冒名說在用什麼喝的瘦瘦針而且還是院方自己報的警你知道嗎除了本人自己來揭發說那不是我之外你們有沒有其他判別的方式呢我們都有進行網路監控當然委員談的沒錯什麼樣子的網路監控他知道嗎他明明看這個就是陳美鳳啊你覺得你的網路監控人員會覺得這一肯定是AI他怎麼判別"},{"start":10644.602,"end":10660.086,"text":"你現在肯定沒有工具那我的意思是說科技這麼發達你們要去諧詢這些可以判別是不是AI廣告或是AI影片的工具這是你們現在需求的我們也持續在做"},{"start":10663.567,"end":10681.656,"text":"那我想你們的報告裡面就是我就是想要提的我提的這幾個案例為什麼就是因為你們的報告裡面是沒有相關執法的案例那AI廣告生成的速度之快成本之低一天就能夠產出好幾百支影片"},{"start":10682.656,"end":10703.046,"text":"那這種內容透過社群媒體的擴散喔它造成的影響是遠比傳統的廣告來得更廣更快如果沒有辦法辨識或揭露的機制的話消費者將會完全陷入資訊混亂這一點我是必須要提醒主委你必須要有工具我相信喔這個"},{"start":10704.767,"end":10724.268,"text":"磨高一尺道高一丈喔你應該是有機會喔可以去找到這些工序你現在已經知道說你沒有工具你是不可能辨別的他好幾百個你怎麼知道說哪一個是真的哪一個是假的呢那所以呢是不是能夠建立一個就是AI生成廣告揭露的原則"},{"start":10725.089,"end":10744.27,"text":"那只要是AI生成的圖片或者是影片怎麼樣去讓他說能夠分辨說是AI生成的內容呢我想公平會可以扮演一個更加積極的角色因為這已經不是個別的事件了這已經現在是整個市場的"},{"start":10745.532,"end":10759.529,"text":"新風險那公平會也許也可以主導一個跨部會的合作像是跟述發部啊述發部我相信這一方面可能更是他們的專業共同來推動一個自律的規範或者是教育宣導"},{"start":10760.47,"end":10775.249,"text":"那AI其實應該是我們的好幫手應該是人類的好幫手不能變成欺騙市場的一個工具然後這樣子才能在科技創新與市場誠信中找到平衡點諸位你同意嗎"},{"start":10775.589,"end":10801.38,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的指導那個對於執法經濟的部分我們都持續在做啦就尤其是數位執法技術的部分所以你們要跨部會討論一下嗎跨部會的部分公益委員剛剛講說是不是在廣告裡面揭露這是AI做的是這個部分我們回去再研究看看是不是適合由公評會來做沒有就是你們要主動跟數法部討論啊我們回去會再研細然後再也許不排除跟數法部討論一下到底這個東西應該如何來處理"},{"start":10802.941,"end":10819.133,"text":"那我回到剛剛一開始跟委員報告就是說其實我們處理不實廣告不管它是不是AI只是它重點還是在於內容它本身當然啊它是AI製成就已經是不實廣告了它沒有得到這個當事人的授權啊我再跟你講的東西跟你再跟我講的東西是不一樣的你知道嗎我再繼續跟你講就是說我想要知道說像演算法在定價上的挑戰現在大家訂飯店"},{"start":10829.8,"end":10852.057,"text":"訂Uber然後可能買機票都會發現同樣一樣的這個現象只要需求一提高它的定價就會所有平台同時上漲那過去呢大家會覺得說一定要合意才是聯合的行為但是現在是演算法AI自己就算好了"},{"start":10852.938,"end":10873.546,"text":"那這樣子怎麼做呢演算法還是由人設計的所以不能說這是AI算的人就不管這個也是你要管啊但是在聯合行為的部分我們在執法常會面臨到一些限制因為當然剛剛委員有談到合意的部分很難去認定因為那個價格的match是同一時間所以你很難有看到跟隨"},{"start":10874.346,"end":10893.571,"text":"是 所以我的意思是說你要必須你必須這個思維要跟上時代就是說如果很多的業者他都用同一套的定價系統那自動調價那怎麼辦呢這個我們其實在白皮書裡面都有討論到我覺得這可能是要特別去注意這也是一個聯合壟斷的行為如果有市政的話當然是啊"},{"start":10894.335,"end":10901.943,"text":"你要去找呀怎麼可能沒有市政每天都有好不好每天都有 你自己看看Uber對 那我跟委員談到過你在看看訂飯店你可能太忙了沒有時間出去玩但是你總是會坐車吧對不對我剛剛講說執法上有一些局限就在法律的要件上來講是有一些限制的平台跟飯店"},{"start":10915.396,"end":10932.442,"text":"所以我的意思是說你要去規範你要再做更多的規範去做這件事情否則最終犧牲的也是消費者最終受害的也是消費者這是個重要議題我們會持續的觀察好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝謝謝張家俊委員的諮詢謝謝我們現在請蔡易宇委員諮詢"},{"start":10947.193,"end":10953.058,"text":"謝謝昭緯那我們是有請公平會我們陳代理主委我們請陳主委謝謝委員長主委你身為公平會的主委當然就是要讓所有的制度尤其是一些就是要制度公平啦我跟前舉一個很不公平的事情超級不公平"},{"start":10977.438,"end":10997.01,"text":"我剛剛從我們七樓衝來這裡我輸給我們張家俊委員因為張家俊苗條本身就速度會比我快啦可是我覺得還有最重要的原因我們這個立法院這個我們韓院長修理電梯修理好久好久"},{"start":10998.174,"end":11021.882,"text":"然後你看他兩邊不公平這不公平的地方來了你看右邊這張照片是單數樓層單數樓層又多停B2跟B3左邊這邊是雙數樓層他只停B1沒有B2跟B3然後你看單數樓層12樓副院長的辦公室也停"},{"start":11024.225,"end":11039,"text":"我宿樓當然有12樓所以你看單宿樓層就要承載更多的這個挺等待的時間來我們跟我們曾經的相親難道權益會比較低嗎"},{"start":11040.707,"end":11067.168,"text":"這個真的不公平 拜託這個要跟我們韓院長這個真的反映一下 兩個老君也不公平 阿丹有夠久的立法院這樣的效率真的是不好好 言歸正傳 好 可以了這個好好 主委我想跟你聊一下"},{"start":11068.337,"end":11083.808,"text":"我們現在的電信業因為今年九月的時候遠傳跟台歌大宣布要取消4G吃到飽不限速的優惠他們宣布取消4G吃到飽這件事情"},{"start":11085.222,"end":11106.964,"text":"基本上對民眾是很有感因為我們知道現在對於大部分的用戶來說4G都會覺得事實上是足夠我的生活的一個網路的一個服務所以覺得4G夠的情況之下我要生成5G那個費用就提升很多一倍有餘"},{"start":11108.435,"end":11118.442,"text":"所以既然提升了這麼多的費用然後你現在說要取消4G吃到飽然後遠傳跟中華電信兩家就一起跳出來"},{"start":11119.923,"end":11137.962,"text":"我覺得這部分一些決策的過程是不是公平會應該要也要表示一點意見呢我想這個取消的部分據我們的了解是如果消費者直接到門市的部分是可以被取消的啦應該是在經銷商那一塊才會取消那另外就是說剛剛委員關切的這個好像"},{"start":11138.783,"end":11156.345,"text":"所有的這個公司都在同一個時間要同時取消當然當然這個如果有涉及到聯合聯合來調整或是變更甚至取消一些交易條件的話這不排除是有聯合行為但是因為我們就看數字看數字我這個表裡面你看現在4G的用戶數"},{"start":11157.691,"end":11186.763,"text":"不管是中華電信台灣大哥大和遠傳電信4G的用戶明顯都還大於5G的用戶那既然是明顯都還大於而且你看一家是690萬一家是580萬另外一家是470萬都這麼多用戶的情況之下然後你就冒難的說我要去變更你4G用戶的他的服務的一個條件這個條件事實上對於所有的使用者來說是影響很大的"},{"start":11187.786,"end":11214.417,"text":"既然有這麼大的一個變更然後做出這樣一個決策我覺得這中間公平會應該還是要有角色我們當然就剛剛跟委員報告了如果有聯合去取消這些條件的話這個當然就違反聯合行為的疑慮但是如果個別的廠商基於他自己成本的考慮還有服務品質跟各方面的考慮他去做一些調整原則上公平會比較沒有介入的空間大概是這樣主委你要知道現在5G是這樣"},{"start":11216.468,"end":11244.462,"text":"5G我覺得我們它的架設的進度是慢的尤其是在越偏鄉的地方它說是5G的服務事實上你看已經幾年了它已經運作了多久5G運作多久了當時政府也是一個整個人一個他們去得標的金額也是有分配讓他們去建設5G你現在很多事實上它雖然叫做5G可是你一旦到了偏鄉到了山上還是到海邊還是跳回來4G"},{"start":11246.277,"end":11274.11,"text":"所以拖了這麼久的時間看起來5G的架設就是跟不上嘛跟不上大家的期待嘛那他們現在說要把4G逐漸把4G變嚴格那一定一個基本的想法就是覺得要希望大家提升大家都來5G未來可能還會有更新的更新的頻寬要出來立足點應該是這樣但是看起來現在4G沒有辦法跳到5G就一定有它的原因啊"},{"start":11275.314,"end":11290.412,"text":"第一 費用太貴第二 基本上5G服務的效率沒辦法超越到4G讓整個4G覺得說真的比人家慢 比較不方便看起來就不是這樣啊"},{"start":11290.993,"end":11317.706,"text":"我想這個當然是新技術轉換之間的一個對消費者可能產生一個震動期那這個的確是值得去關切的問題不過總統剛剛跟委員報告的從公平會的執法角度來看的話我們是比較關切有沒有聯合去做這樣的事情那至於說5G的進度品質如何這比較不是公平會所能夠介入去處理的部分對 但是我比較在意他們現在要把4G的就是費用調整然後服務也要調整"},{"start":11318.446,"end":11346.693,"text":"這件事我是在意的啊看起來4G現在還是使用的大宗啊對啊但是他現在要去把4G的部分這個對消費者的權利就明顯的明顯的影響到了然後電信業者會同時間丟出這樣的訊息我覺得這件事公平會你要有角色啦我們會從我們本會的立場去了解這件事情後續的發展那我再另外一個議題啦就是我昨天事實上在這裡也有去跟農業部在反映現在"},{"start":11350.823,"end":11370.153,"text":"你說齊了的價格不管是畜牧業或者是養殖尤其魚飼料的價格不管是哪一個品牌都飆升到底為什麼他們的成本是哪一端在提高因為我們知道現在國際玉米價格也下降了"},{"start":11371.661,"end":11389.215,"text":"國際玉米價格下降照理說這個飼料因為他用了這個飼料的玉米啊怎樣應該要跟著價格也要下降結果沒有下降價格反而還提高事實上公平會在111年的時候也有針對國內啦這是針對魚飼料我當時候也有認為說他們同時漲價3塊涉及聯合行為111年"},{"start":11398.863,"end":11424.555,"text":"那我現在我不知道 我沒辦法推斷有沒有聯合行為但是我看到的很多漁民 很多我們的養殖畜牧業者 都是老實說起了 起了會價格下跌起了會價格下跌跟國際行情又奪不起來 國際行情的價碼在下降我們過來價格一直在提高這件事情我覺得我們公平會是不是也是了解一下"},{"start":11425.243,"end":11449.574,"text":"剛剛委員談到的魚飼料這是我們處分的因為它主要是聯合的行為聯合去做一些就111年這一次嘛那委員我想關切的是說上游的原物料價格降低為什麼沒有轉嫁到下方這個問題那這個問題裡面有很多複雜的因素啦有些也不見得是公平會可以介入了因為中間的那個部分有涉及到不同的經銷成本還有相關的成本的考慮每個業者都不一樣啦"},{"start":11450.194,"end":11473.872,"text":"不過我們還是會持續去觀察這個事實上他們的作業都一樣因為台灣在飼料這一塊就是雜糧嘛就是黃小玉嘛從過去以來就是一直都是仰賴進口啊所以他們唯一的波動就是國際行情上去啊現在國際行情是下降結果看起來他們的成本他們的對外的售價還是提高"},{"start":11475.195,"end":11502.419,"text":"我是覺得這個了解一下我們在調查聯合協會過程當中也會去了解這些事情就是他們的成本的結構等等各方面的好 謝謝謝謝謝謝易瑜委員的質詢我們現在請葉元芝葉元芝葉元芝委員不在我們登機發言除不在場者外其餘都已發言完畢我們詢答結束那書面質詢及未及答複部分"},{"start":11503.16,"end":11512.796,"text":"請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日所列議程處理完據謝謝大家現在散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}