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各位同仁有請祕書長 張祕書長祕書長好作為一個讀書人人生最高的目標是行政院祕書長這個職務您的職務是非常關鍵的一個職務"},{"start":32.864,"end":59.885,"text":"所以我今天才來跟你交換一些意見在日本黑船事件庫洛夫內日本的天皇大將軍旁邊的老中掌管整個日本行政大權您雖然很年輕其實您是扮演這個老中的角色非常關鍵那在黑船事件日本要不要開戶"},{"start":62.515,"end":89.691,"text":"兩邊爭執的結果是老中被暗殺所以秘書長您知道您的職務非常的重要我非常的重視剛才您的報告我非常仔細聆聽我在台大法學院念書的時候我受惠於韓忠謀桂育老師這些都是國民政府帶過來的法學精英桂育老師他住在我們徐州路跟紹興南路的交叉口"},{"start":91.209,"end":114.676,"text":"結果那一邊沒有紀念它卻變成一個藝術沙龍我一直很感慨我之所以能夠學的國際貿易法、海商法、保險法都是因為它的傳承今天我聽到您行政院願意去把孫運璿的宿舍來再整修紀念我非常的感動因為我看到民進黨現在開始有這種氣度"},{"start":120.479,"end":145.5,"text":"願意去承認1949年國民政府蔣介石所帶來的這一批中國的精英要不是共產黨佔據中國大陸他們也不會到台灣這個島所以我們對他們對台灣的貢獻我們一直謹記在心蘇玉璇她其實是中國當時留學溫宿庫尼溫宿庫"},{"start":150.713,"end":174.005,"text":"滿洲國學得電機知識的人當時到台灣來要能夠恢復日本時代所建立的電力系統他是唯一的人選所以有這樣一個對台灣的重大貢獻我們真的要紀念他我非常感動所以我們現在這個全國這樣一起來保衛台灣就像祕書長剛才講到的"},{"start":175.896,"end":202.23,"text":"好像你說最近立法院跟行政院關係比較好好像在講我非常謝謝但是我個人應該不是因為我我們本來就是該刪就刪該審就審中國現在魔我日氣所以中國對台灣的間諜的部件包括中南部的廟會各種協會團體無孔不日"},{"start":206.428,"end":235.575,"text":"而中國這一套李克強會去游泳 去世變成李強完全沒有資訊所以各位就可以看到這個情報的建置的重要性所以我看到你們報告裡面有國土安全 土地的食品安全有個人隱私資訊的安全"},{"start":236.923,"end":262.385,"text":"但是我們的保密防諜也就是說行政院長以及您處理台灣很重要的國家機密我沒有看到你們的報告裡面有保密防諜方面的指出那你們如何做到保密防諜我們院長如何來做休閒他是不是也游泳"},{"start":265.953,"end":290.858,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎 請委員你是我的大前輩也是大學長 您是師承韓老師我是師承乙市的五更大法官剛剛委員垂詢到的保密房諜的部分我想我剛剛有報告到行政院今年是增加了蠻多的資安預算資安沒辦法 在通用的各種的行動載具上面包括"},{"start":291.658,"end":318.774,"text":"各種方式我們都加強我在關心的是行政院長身邊包括他的休閒他所處理的一些資訊沒有通過資訊系統的資訊系統我們會做嚴格的把關這個請委員放心那至於院長身邊的人我想這個對於相關的隨戶跟工作人員本來就有相關的辦法做這個考核的機制這個在去年也開始逐一的來落實也更加的謹慎在處理這個要嚴肅以待"},{"start":321.568,"end":350.339,"text":"這個要嚴肅以待中國的部件是無孔不入你從李克強變李強你就知道這個是很嚴肅的一個議題所以中國一定會部件在行政院長跟您的身邊所以這個是我們必須要有這個謹慎那第二點我看到你們的會議你剛才有提到法務尊檢了51.54萬我非常的感動你們刪除了這個出國考察的費用"},{"start":351.434,"end":377.555,"text":"今天變成說我在過去我們行政院長達成重大法案不附屬我看你們的法案審查有一般法案的審查會還有重大法案的審查會而這個財政收支發分法不附屬當然是一個重大的法案那你們當時是透過怎麼樣一個機制讓院長達到不附屬這樣一個結論出來"},{"start":379.878,"end":384.843,"text":"委員請問我可以回答嗎當然好委員剛剛說當然就回答了這個問題"},{"start":387.216,"end":415.604,"text":"依照憲法第37條總統依法公佈法律須經行政院長附屬委員是法律專家這個博學多文所以須經行政院長附屬某個程度也代表附屬權在行政院長身上喔 此言差矣台灣是立法司法行政商權分立我相信委員可能有不同的法律見解但是行政院長行政沒有審查立法但是不可否認的是也有許多的法學"},{"start":417.965,"end":445.663,"text":"這個學者也認為行政院長擁有了復議權、釋憲權跟附屬權我想這個我們可以做一定程度的討論我們當時憲法37條的設計就是如果不附屬就是自愛燃省自愛燃省就要提復議那根據舊的憲法57條復議結果如果未通過辭職或是應急接受辭職就是他只能離開應急接受就是附屬"},{"start":446.704,"end":461.743,"text":"那我們現在正式條文把辭職拿掉那表示院長只有接受這條路他不接受變成總統要跟他免職那總統跟他免職有兩種方式一種就是行政免職"},{"start":463.055,"end":481.312,"text":"一種是總統行政院長違反我們的憲法徵收條文違反公務人員服務法第一條沒有遵守法律然後根據我們公務人員服務法23條要適用工程法第九條司法免職"},{"start":482.284,"end":509.258,"text":"委員謝謝你齁這個您比其他的法學背景的委員還要專業至少剛剛講出了憲法徵修條文第三條已經廢止了憲法第57條那附屬權跟附議權確實寫在兩個不同的憲法條文當中那我也必須再一次強調如果立法院又或者是這個人民弄為院長行使不附屬的權利有違憲之餘也可以依照憲法徵修條文第三條執行保格或者釋憲"},{"start":512.139,"end":530.171,"text":"你們當時的幕僚作業你在重大法案達成不附屬你們是怎麼樣來達成不附屬這個幕僚作業委員跟委員報告齁當時的裁劃法的再修版他至少違反了憲法三條的法條第一那個要釋憲"},{"start":532.909,"end":543.585,"text":"這個違反會計年度,憲法第59條第二,最重要的是預算權是行政權的核心,這個違反權利分立的原則第三個,是憲法第147條這個地方均衡的原則"},{"start":547.304,"end":567.286,"text":"附屬公布成為法律在提示線這個我回到剛剛跟委員講的就是說憲法第37條明定總統依法公布法律須經行政院長同意這個須就代表這是行政院長的權利37條之後要走入互譽57條的程序"},{"start":569.246,"end":582.458,"text":"就像委員剛剛所講的57條已經被憲法正確條文第三條廢止了那如果這個行政院長賦予之後遭立法院否決那行政院長行使不附屬的權利立法院認為有疑義的時候可以依照憲法正確條文第三條執行倒閣"},{"start":590.014,"end":619.07,"text":"又或者提出釋憲,我想這個法律有權力必有救濟釋憲一定要公佈法律才可以釋憲法律一定要公佈才可以釋憲 釋憲必須公佈,但是憲法第37條應該很清楚附屬或不附屬是行政院長的權利行政院長辭職或應急接受,現在沒有辭職選項就是應急接受那他不接受也就是不附屬,這個時候違反憲法徵修條文,所以他是違法如果委員覺得違法可以提倒閣"},{"start":620.575,"end":632.794,"text":"根據我們公務人員服務法第一條公務人員要服從法律包括憲法行政院長不服從公務法第一條根據他23條要送公務人員懲戒法"},{"start":633.274,"end":651.9,"text":"委員這個剛剛你講到的沒有錯公務員都必須服從法律包括憲法憲法最核心的一個精神至少以中華民國憲法來講是權力分立有權每一個人都有守護五權分立當時行政院長做這個部署的重大決策的木牙作業就是您秘書長一個人跟他討論的嗎"},{"start":653.203,"end":674.031,"text":"我想這是非常多人討論的結果那也承如我剛剛講的至少他違反了憲法三條的條文而且委員那個時候可能還來不及參與但是當時財化法的再修版已經讓今年度要舉債2992億的中央政府的總預算要再增加2646億超過預算法15%流量的上限這個行政院是做不到的"},{"start":680.393,"end":703.373,"text":"各位,Where law ends, talent begins當法律走到盡頭,獨裁就要開始我們之所以重視法治,郭毓老師、韓忠謀老師教我們就是要遵守法治所以我每天走在台大法學院附近,我都在想說我的所作所為有沒有違反我的老師也就是這些國民政府帶過來的法學先輩對我的教導"},{"start":704.585,"end":724.743,"text":"委員 跟委員報告齁今天在內政委員會您跟我 你在質詢我所以我問的是幕僚週夜這就代表沒有獨裁嘛 對不對同樣一個憲法的條文您跟我有不同的見解也代表台灣是一個民主的國家所以您剛剛所講的法律沒有走到盡頭台灣也沒有獨裁謝謝 謝謝秘書長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:25.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.154000+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","text":"有請張秘書長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","text":"請秘書長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:28.194000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.194000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:27.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:21:57.487000+08:00","text":"作為一個讀書人，人生最高的目標是行政院秘書長這個職務，你的職務是非常關鍵的職務，所以我今天要跟你交換一些意見。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:21:57.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:22:32.220000+08:00","text":"在日本黑船事件（くろふね），日本天皇大將軍旁邊的老中掌管整個日本行政大權，你雖然很年輕，其實你是扮演老中的角色，非常關鍵，在黑船事件中日本要不要開戶，兩邊爭執的結果是老中被暗殺，所以秘書長你知道你的職務非常重要，我非常重視。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:22:32.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:23:05.353000+08:00","text":"剛才你的報告我非常仔細聆聽，我在臺大法學院唸書的時候受惠於韓忠謨、桂裕老師，這些都是國民政府帶過來的法學菁英，桂裕老師住在徐州路和紹興南路的交叉口，結果那一邊沒有紀念他，卻變成一個藝術沙龍，我一直很感慨，我之所以能夠學得國際貿易法、海商法、保險法，都是因為他的傳承。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:23:06.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:23:40.775000+08:00","text":"今天我聽到行政院願意去把孫運璿的宿舍加以整修紀念，我非常感動，因為我看到民進黨現在開始有這種氣度，願意去承認1949年國民政府蔣介石所帶來的這一批中國菁英，要不是共產黨占據中國大陸，他們也不會到臺灣這個島，所以他們對臺灣的貢獻，我們一直謹記在心。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:23:43.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:24:09.302000+08:00","text":"孫運璿其實是中國當時留學滿洲國（まんしゅうこく）學得電機知識的人，當時到臺灣來要能夠恢復日本時代所建立的電力系統，他是唯一的人選，所以有這樣一個對臺灣的重大貢獻，我們真的要紀念他，我非常感動。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:24:10.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:24:31.524000+08:00","text":"現在全國一起來保衛臺灣，就像秘書長剛才講到的，你說最近立法院與行政院的關係比較好，好像在講我，非常謝謝，但是我個人覺得應該不是因為我，我們本來就是該刪就刪、該審就審。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:24:31.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:25:05.072000+08:00","text":"中國現在謀我日亟，中國對臺灣的間諜布建，包括中南部的廟會、各種協會、團體，無孔不入，而中國這一套，李克強去游泳去世變成李強，完全沒有資訊，所以各位就可以看到情報建置的重要性。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:25:06.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:25:40.242000+08:00","text":"我看了你們的報告，其中有關於土地的國土安全、食品安全、個人隱私資訊的安全，但是我們的保密防諜，行政院院長以及你處理臺灣很重要的國家機密，我沒有看到你們的報告裡面有保密防諜方面的支出，你們如何做到保密防諜？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:25:40.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:25:43.365000+08:00","text":"我們的院長如何來做休閒，他是不是也游泳？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:25:46.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:25:49.453000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:25:49.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:25:49.453000+08:00","text":"可以，請。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:25:49.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:06.197000+08:00","text":"委員，你是我的大前輩，也是大學長，您是師承韓老師，我是師承已逝的吳庚大法官，剛剛委員垂詢到的保密防諜部分，我剛剛也有報告到，行政院今年增加了滿多的資安預算。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:26:06.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:07.597000+08:00","text":"資安沒辦法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:26:07.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:14.479000+08:00","text":"在通用的各種行動載具上面，包括各種方式，我們都加強，當然院長……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:26:14.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:23.344000+08:00","text":"我在關心的是行政院院長身邊，包括他的休閒、他所處理的一些資訊，沒有通過資訊系統的。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:26:24.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:39.453000+08:00","text":"資訊系統我們會嚴格把關，請委員放心，至於院長身邊的人，對於相關的隨扈跟工作人員本來就有相關辦法做考核機制，在去年也開始逐一地來落實，也更加的謹慎在處理。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:26:39.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:26:59.895000+08:00","text":"這個要嚴肅以待，中國的布建是無孔不入，從李克強變李強，你就知道這個是很嚴肅的議題，所以中國一定會布建在行政院院長跟你的身邊，我們必須要謹慎。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:00.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:27:11.319000+08:00","text":"第二點，你剛才有提到法務撙節51.54萬，我非常感動你們刪除出國考察費用。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:14.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:27:38.555000+08:00","text":"過去行政院院長達成重大法案不副署，我看你們的法案審查有一般法案審查會，還有重大法案審查會，而財政收支劃分法不副署當然是一個重大法案，你們當時是透過什麼樣的機制，讓院長達到不副署這樣的結論出來？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:40.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:27:42.460000+08:00","text":"委員，請問我可以回答嗎？當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:43.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:27:53.818000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛說當然就回答了這個問題，依照憲法第三十七條，總統依法公布法律，須經行政院院長副署。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:53.818000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-21T09:27:54.818000+08:00","text":"我知道你要講這一條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:27:53.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:03.320000+08:00","text":"委員是法律專家，博學多聞，所以「須經行政院院長副署」，某個程度也代表副署權在行政院院長身上。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:04.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:05.341000+08:00","text":"此言差矣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:05.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:07.501000+08:00","text":"臺灣是立法、司法、行政三權分立。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:07.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:09.802000+08:00","text":"我相信委員可能有不同的法律見解，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:10.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:12.503000+08:00","text":"行政沒有審查立法的權限。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:13.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:27.911000+08:00","text":"但是不可否認的是，也有許多的法學學者認為，行政院院長擁有了覆議權、釋憲權及副署權，我想這個部分我們可以做一定程度的討論。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:28.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:28:46.503000+08:00","text":"當時憲法第三十七條的設計，如果不副署就是窒礙難行，窒礙難行就要提覆議，根據舊的憲法第五十七條，覆議結果如果未通過，辭職或是應即接受，辭職就是他主動離開，應即接受就是副署。","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:28:47.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:29:22.312000+08:00","text":"現在增修條文把辭職拿掉，表示院長只有接受這一條路，他不接受，變成總統要跟他免職，總統跟他免職有兩種方式：一種是行政免職；一種是行政院院長行違反我們的憲法增修條文、違反公務人員服務法第一條，沒有遵守法令，根據公務人員服務法第二十三條規定，要適用公懲法第九條司法免職。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:29:23.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:29:50.258000+08:00","text":"委員，謝謝你，你比其他法學背景的委員還要專業，至少剛剛講出了憲法增修條文第三條已經廢止了憲法第五十七條，副署權和覆議權確實寫在兩個不同的憲法條文當中，我也必須再一次強調，如果立法院又或者是人民認為院長行使不副署的權力有違憲之虞，也可以依照憲法增修條文第三條執行倒閣或者釋憲。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:29:53.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:01.545000+08:00","text":"我的重點是你們當時的幕僚作業，在重大法案達成不副署，你們是怎麼樣來達成不副署的幕僚作業？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:01.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:10.651000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，當時財劃法的再修版至少違反憲法三條的法條……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:11.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:11.171000+08:00","text":"那個要釋憲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:13.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:24.585000+08:00","text":"第一，違反會計年度，即憲法第五十九條；第二，最重要的是預算權是行政權的核心，這個違反權力分立原則；第三個，憲法第一百四十七條地方均衡的原則。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:29.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:30.767000+08:00","text":"這個應該要副署、公布、成為法律，再提釋憲。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:31.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:41.839000+08:00","text":"我回到剛剛跟委員講的，憲法第三十七條明定總統依法公布法律，須經行政院長同意。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:42.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:44.602000+08:00","text":"這個「須」就代表這是行政院長的權力。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:45.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:48.266000+08:00","text":"第三十七條之後，要走入第五十七條的覆議程序。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:50.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:30:59.395000+08:00","text":"就像委員剛剛所講的，第五十七條已經被憲法增修條文第三條廢止了，如果行政院長覆議之後遭立法院否決，行政院長行使副署的……","quality":0.685},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:59.395000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:00.395000+08:00","text":"他沒有辭職的機會，只有被免職。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:30:59.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:15.777000+08:00","text":"行政院長行使不副署的權力，立法院認為有疑義的時候，可以依照憲法增修條文第三條執行倒閣，又或者提出釋憲，我想法律有權利必有救濟。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:15.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:18.678000+08:00","text":"釋憲一定要公布法律才可以釋憲。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:18.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:25.302000+08:00","text":"釋憲必須公布，但是憲法第三十七條應該很清楚，副署或不副署是行政院長的權力。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:26.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:31.845000+08:00","text":"行政院長辭職或應即接受，現在沒有辭職的選項，就是應即接受。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:32.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:37.728000+08:00","text":"那他不接受，也就是不副署，這個時候違反憲法增修條文，所以他是違法……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:38.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:40.070000+08:00","text":"如果委員覺得違法，可以提倒閣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:41.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:31:53.773000+08:00","text":"根據公務人員服務法第一條，公務人員要服從法律，包括憲法，行政院長不服從公服法第一條，根據第二十三條要送公務人員懲戒法。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:31:54.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:32:06.778000+08:00","text":"委員，剛剛你講到的沒有錯，公務員都必須服從法律，包括憲法，而憲法最核心的精神，至少以中華民國憲法來講是權力分立原則，每一個人都有守護五權分立的責任。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:32:07.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:32:12.900000+08:00","text":"當時行政院長做不副署重大決策的幕僚作業，就是您、秘書長，一個人跟他討論的嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:32:14.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:32:35.011000+08:00","text":"我想這是非常多人討論的結果，也誠如我剛剛講的，至少它違反憲法三條的條文，而且委員那個時候可能還來不及參與，但是當時財劃法的再修版已經讓今年度舉債2,992億的中央政府總預算，要再增加2,646億，超過預算法15%之流量上限，這個行政院是做不到的。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:32:35.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-21T09:32:41.393000+08:00","text":"如果我參與的話，我一定會講萬萬不可不副署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:32:41.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:04.373000+08:00","text":"各位，Where law ends, tyranny begins.當法律走到盡頭，獨裁就要開始，我們之所以重視法治，桂裕老師、韓忠謨老師教我們就是要遵守法治，所以我每天走在臺大法學院附近，我都在想我的所作所為有沒有違反我的老師，也就是國民政府帶過來的這些法學先輩對我的教導。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:06.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:11.010000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，今天在內政委員會您質詢我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:12.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:13.552000+08:00","text":"所以我問的是幕僚作業。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:13.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:15.954000+08:00","text":"這就代表沒有獨裁嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:15.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:21.419000+08:00","text":"同樣一個憲法的條文，您跟我有不同的見解，也代表臺灣是一個民主國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張秘書長惇涵","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:22.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:25.523000+08:00","text":"您剛剛所講的法律沒有走到盡頭，臺灣也沒有獨裁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:25.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:25.743000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-21T09:33:26.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-21T09:33:29.385857+08:00","text":"下一位請張智倫委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}