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那麼我們就進行提案說明那每位委員發言的時間為三分鐘那麼首先我們就先請提案人賴世保委員進行提案說明謝謝主席以及各位先進那麼"},{"start":1475.26,"end":1486.188,"text":"我跟其他委員總共大概20來位委員我們有共同提案就是提有關於公立學校教職員退休等於是公教人員的"},{"start":1490.303,"end":1511.295,"text":"公立学校的教职人员他们的退休条例第37条38条以及第67条这里的修正案现在还67条67条按照现在来讲的话我们是这个要CPI要消费指数要达到"},{"start":1512.256,"end":1513.917,"text":"正負5%才來調整我把它改成3%另外一部分就是每四年檢討一次把它改成每兩年檢討一次"},{"start":1527.748,"end":1546.555,"text":"那另外一個提案呢我想另外一個提案就是所得替代率的問題啊這裡面37條38條這裡面有關於所得替代率啊這個的我們希望能夠stop here stop here那這裡面我要說明的這主要是"},{"start":1547.775,"end":1552.097,"text":"錢的問題我們都看到這裡面要砍繼續砍已經砍了7年砍了7年現在來講的話我們整個等於是砍掉的錢大概3000多億但是我們要看另外一個層面在勞保這一部分幾乎每年撥補"},{"start":1569.205,"end":1596.824,"text":"這次的任性也撥補幾百億那麼勞保到現在為止已經撥補了三千多億那麼如果把一百一十五年加進來的話大概差不多五千億上下了所以你就看到說這一邊一直減然後這一邊一直加照顧勞工的勞保我們不會反對 我們支持那可是對於我們的公教人員特別是教職人員我可以向主席報告 向主席報告"},{"start":1598.683,"end":1620.174,"text":"那個翁主席 因為我有兩個案子就給我多一點時間 好不好我有兩個案子 只這一批說明好的麻煩 因為我們今天提案的時候 麻煩代委員可以進出好 我再一分鐘 再比現在比委員多給我一分鐘就是我要提的就是說 現在都是Money Talk講錢的問題那我們就講說你這樣子一直砍 砍到現在已經第七年的時間"},{"start":1621.235,"end":1627.521,"text":"那這樣的一個光景其實已經見底了而且這個退休的教職人員也並沒有跟著說如果公務員長這個公教來挑釁的話他也跟著挑釁 沒有只是說四年要檢討 我們覺得四年太長我們改成兩年 而且我們希望能夠這個停砍就是說stop here 就不要再砍了"},{"start":1645.716,"end":1666.25,"text":"就是過去砍完 我們不是說回到過去七年前的時候不是 而是說不要再砍了就是stop here我們的重點在這裡 stop here所以這裡是兩個案子 一個案子就是說我們希望stop here因為案子就是我們希望每四年調整一次改成每兩年CPI呢 這個增加5的話"},{"start":1668.591,"end":1687.077,"text":"我們要調整 我們希望改成3%這是兩大重點 兩個案子最後一點我要提的是我希望執政黨的民進黨政府不要說把軍公教特別是軍公教當作說這個不是我的票就這樣子 氣之如碧熙"},{"start":1687.757,"end":1711.867,"text":"然後說這個勞工都是我的票所以拼命加拼命加這兩個可以比較嗎幾乎你可以看就如果以政府大水庫的概念來講把公交人員砍的這一部分的錢通通到勞保這邊去了雖然你說是回到基金可是就整個Lumson的概念是這樣的概念所以我希望我希望能夠得到本院同仁的支持我最後再強調一句話"},{"start":1713.388,"end":1728.769,"text":"我們不是說要回到年改前的那個狀況不是是說停砍就一直砍到現在可以的已經見底了更何況今年度的這個GDP按照組計長他講的可以到5%"},{"start":1730.131,"end":1748.658,"text":"去年也都是很好最近這幾年政府的財務情況非常好與其很多的浪費你不如說我們多照顧一點公教人員的一個退休的生活我想這是我們幾位委員這個修法的一個本意也請各位能夠支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員那接下來我們第二位請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":1763.294,"end":1782.346,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早那近年物價跟生活成本持續上升勞工年金現在是得依消費者物價指數CPI自動調整給付金額但公教退休人員的退休金卻未享有同樣的制度來保障"},{"start":1783.126,"end":1810.86,"text":"不僅自107年每年需遞減1.5%的所得替代率並與現職人員的條薪脫鉤導致年金被雙重削減實質所得水準大幅下降公教人員長年奉獻國家退休後理應獲得安定及有尊嚴的生活面對通膨壓力及醫療照護支出的增加許多退休人員陷入越老越窮的生活困境"},{"start":1811.52,"end":1827.541,"text":"此舉不但背離了社會公平以及憲法保證人民生存權的權利的原則也影響公教體系長期穩定及高教人員的士氣因此本次修法不只是補漏洞而是回到制度正義的原點"},{"start":1828.382,"end":1856.099,"text":"首先第三條已明定84年前已退休屬N級制人員不應再被納入退府基金範圍維護既得利益及法治安定第九條要求政府依法提高提撥比例不能讓基金虧損成為削減年金的藉口公教的退休保障更不應該被作為財政調節的工具更關鍵的是第37條與第38條"},{"start":1858.5,"end":1873.884,"text":"因停侃所得替代率逐年递减的规定建立明确的年金调整制度比照老保当消费者物价指数累积成长率达正负50%自动依比例调整退休所得"},{"start":1874.464,"end":1894.04,"text":"這是讓制度與現實對接讓退休金真的跟得上生活成本同時第67條刪除模糊授權的條文改與具體的指標規範CPI調整讓制度更透明更可預期這套修法"},{"start":1894.62,"end":1916.934,"text":"是要讓不是要讓誰能得利而是要恢復公平重建信任唯有讓公教人員在退休後能夠安穩有尊嚴的生活國家的行政體系與社會基礎才能更加穩固以上謝謝好謝謝張委員那接下來我們請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":1926.791,"end":1942.717,"text":"謝謝主席近年來我們身邊的長輩常常都提到現在的錢越來越薄退休金根本就不夠用這不是抱怨而是對生活的真實寫照從雞蛋豬肉到外食房租樣樣都在漲根據主計總數的統計消費者物價指數屢屢突破2%的通膨警戒線"},{"start":1947.839,"end":1962.615,"text":"對一般上班族而言已是沉重的壓力對退休收入固定的公教人員來說更是難以承受的負擔那這些曾經在教育崗位上奉獻青春教書育人的老師們如今眼看著物價節節上升生活品質不斷地下降"},{"start":1966.259,"end":1980.293,"text":"卻無力改變現狀因此為了讓制度真正的落實照顧老師的精神我們提出這樣的修法調整公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條第67條的內容讓退休教師能夠獲得更合理的保障"},{"start":1984.657,"end":2012.028,"text":"首先第37條的修正重點在於停止實施自113年1月1號以後逐年下降的所得替代率這項修法的核心是要清楚的表達國家的態度不能以制度削減對教師的尊重教育是百年大業教師是國家的根本當社會期望他們燃燒青春啟發下一代的時候國家就應該在他們年老時給予應有的照顧跟尊嚴"},{"start":2012.748,"end":2035.355,"text":"取消逐年下降的替代率這個修正看似簡單但是意義卻非常深遠象徵政府願意重生尊師重道的核心精神國家若連教師的退休保障都要節省那麼教育的根本將何以為繼唯有維持穩定合理的退休風才能讓教師無後顧之憂讓教育的火焰能夠持續的燃燒"},{"start":2036.175,"end":2040.659,"text":"接著第67號的修正則是將現行的消費者物價指數累積成長率達5%才調整的門檻下修為正2%負50%就應該及時啟動調整這樣的標準更貼近主計總署設計的通膨警戒線"},{"start":2054.292,"end":2075.424,"text":"也更能反映實際的民生壓力兩個百分點看似微小但是對退休老師來說可能是每個月可以多出幾百元的生活費我們同時要要求政府至少每兩年要檢討一次而不是像現在過去三四年才有動作我們理解財政有壓力但社會的溫度不該被冰冷的數字掩蓋"},{"start":2076.144,"end":2095.832,"text":"照顾这些教师就是在传递一个清楚的讯息国家不会忘记这些教育奉献一生的老师这不只是制度的修正更是社会的良心也是我们共同对尊师重道最实际的实践谢谢好 谢谢徐宇峥委员那接下来请黄金航委员发言"},{"start":2106.733,"end":2116.357,"text":"好 謝謝主席本期今天提的是公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例的提案說明那我想近年來各項的指數都有增幅那像基本工資115年調幅3.18%114年調幅4.08%去年的調幅是4.05那也是連10年調漲"},{"start":2124.361,"end":2143.835,"text":"同時現值的軍工教條新111年113年都增幅4%114年也增幅3%另外國民年金在2024年的時候因為CPI指數成長7.34%所以也調整了給付金額所以整體物價的波動很明顯的對於國人的生活影響非常的巨大"},{"start":2144.415,"end":2160.16,"text":"那行政院過去在2024年總統大選前9天曾經宣布過退休軍公教人員的退休分在2024年總預算已經匡列了44億元但是選後卻一直沒有消息後來司令法院洽詢之後才發現人就在公務會議中過程中延宕"},{"start":2161.34,"end":2189.857,"text":"大家要求之後他才加速完成好像就是想發就發如果沒有人問就不發所以可以看到現行方式針對退休軍公教的這種做法極為不公容易因為政府機關被動處理來調整那影響的是真實的人民真實的退休人員生活所需所以我們想應該要比照勞工保險條例的規定在中央主計機關發布消費者物價指數累積成長率達到一定比例之後來針對相關的比例來做調整"},{"start":2190.717,"end":2213.865,"text":"所以本期提出的這個六七條修正案是修訂中央主力機關發布的消費者物價指數累計成長率達到正負百分之五的時候應於發布日期的三個月內來調整那調整比例當然還是可以由考試院會同行政院來制定相關的公式那隨著軍公教的加薪比例來調整來保障我們的公立學校退休教職員現實的生活所需以上 謝謝"},{"start":2225.307,"end":2234.061,"text":"好 謝謝因為主席翁曉琳委員是接下來提案的提案說明委員所以先由我暫代主席我們接下來有請翁曉琳委員"},{"start":2239.434,"end":2264.716,"text":"主席 各位委員夥伴還有各位列席官員大家好本席這次提出公立學校教職員退休之前輔具條例第37條和第67條的修正案是為了要替我們國家所有辛苦一輩子逃離滿天下的學校限職和退休老師職員們爭取他們晚年最基本的尊嚴和生活保障那麼面對高通棚高物價不穩定的"},{"start":2265.837,"end":2290.099,"text":"經濟環境國家真的不能再虧待這些教育界的圓丁以及奉獻者照顧他們的後半生是政府應盡的責任和逃不掉的憲法與法律責任那麼民進黨政府當初強行推動公教人員退休金改革的用意之一就是為了要避免退府基金的破產但是防止退府基金破產的方式有很多種"},{"start":2290.7,"end":2314.256,"text":"政府最不应该的就是以粗暴的方式来扣减已经退休和在职适用就职退休制度的公教人员们的退休金牺牲他们请领退休金的权利来弥补政府操作退府基金的不当疏失退休金是雇主承诺在员工退休的时候要依照双方合议约定的条件来保证给付一定数额的退休金"},{"start":2314.716,"end":2329.373,"text":"因此雇主原本就应该为了他们的雇佣的劳工的退休金预做准备不能够因为退休金准备不足或是计算公司有错误等等这些理由来推诿支付员工足额退休金的责任"},{"start":2330.213,"end":2349.679,"text":"這種基本的道理為何當雇主是政府的時候就完全變了樣政府可以用一大堆的藉口單方的去修改退休金支付契約的條件耍賴不發足額的退休金硬是要把公教員工踩在腳底下這不是霸凌 什麼才是霸凌"},{"start":2351.072,"end":2375.14,"text":"民進黨政府主導的退休金霸凌法案已經實施了7年這段時間台灣經濟通膨物價飛漲不僅是青年人苦連退休族也很辛苦所以主計總處的數據也說了那麼物價上漲其實對於年紀大的長輩們來說衝擊最大一邊是退休金在縮水另外一邊則是生活費在漲這讓很多基層的退休老師們的負擔"},{"start":2376.5,"end":2392.834,"text":"已经重到快喘不过气来了所以政府不能够用牺牲退休人员的基本生活来达成修补财务亏损的目标继续扣抵退休公教人员的退休金是不公不义的那么剩下四年的主攻点"},{"start":2394.135,"end":2417.728,"text":"遞減退休的這個政策必須要立刻踩煞車讓他們至少能夠有安穩的過日子的錢這是對教師們一生貢獻最起碼的肯定那麼最後本席這裡也提出應該未來的退休金要隨著物價通膨指數來進行調整那麼我想這個部分也是很重要的那最後我還是要請大家共同支持教育人員"},{"start":2418.809,"end":2427.534,"text":"退休金扣減停存法案終止繼續霸凌公教人員好 謝謝大家好 謝謝鍾委員那現在也請鍾委員赴會主席那接下來我們請林慶琪委員發言"},{"start":2445.906,"end":2446.851,"text":"他代表國民黨黨團的這個提案發言 謝謝"},{"start":2456.399,"end":2474.989,"text":"謝謝主席本席代表國民黨黨團針對公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條修正草案作提案說明現行的制度自107年施行後階段性削減了退休教職員的所得替代率並於109年起連續10年每年再減少1.5%最高自77."},{"start":2483.293,"end":2505.038,"text":"最高至77.5%預計降為62.5%最低更從45%預計降至30%此外條文更規定年金不得在隨在職人員興奉調整這樣子的設計如今已經造成了退休人員生活負擔並且生活得很沉重"},{"start":2505.858,"end":2530.559,"text":"近年通膨的压力持续上升主计总数统计显示近三年的消费者物价指数连年上涨十一住行的成本全面上升基本工资与军工教薪资皆以速度调整然而退休教职员的年金却无法反映物价与实职薪资的变动导致生活品质不断下降"},{"start":2531.46,"end":2554.729,"text":"许多在教育岗位奉献数十年的老师如今面临了退休所得购买率下滑连基本生活开支都感觉到吃紧的困境国家设立公立学校教职员退休抚恤制度本意是在保障服务年资者退休后的基本生活让常年为教育奉献的人员能够安享晚年"},{"start":2555.97,"end":2570.49,"text":"現職人員若能隨心奉調整以反映付物價退休人員也應該獲得相對調整的機制這不僅是制度設計的應該有的公平原則更關係到政府信用與社會信賴的維繫"},{"start":2572.012,"end":2597.282,"text":"本次修法刪除了現行條文不再隨在職人員薪資調整之限制讓退休所得重新與現職薪奉連動並停止所得替代率逐年下降的一個規定付表三的逐年降低113年1月1日之後部分均不適用確保退休所得穩定避免年金制度淪為實質減奉"},{"start":2599.443,"end":2626.824,"text":"本提案致力於恢復制度的公平與合理讓教職員能安心退休讓廣大的公教人員相信政府制度是可信任的國家應該實踐信賴保證原則應以專業計算與政府的執行能力來維護人民的保障不應以任何理由來毀壞承諾而且是國家對人民的承諾更不應該被毀壞以上敬請各位同仁支持本案敬訴審議通過 謝謝"},{"start":2630.485,"end":2632.027,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好"},{"start":2656.004,"end":2677.833,"text":"大宴近日併案審查公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例相關條文修正草案以下請就大宴黨團及委員所提各草案提出說明進行參考一 提案修正第37條及第38條退休所得替代例自113年1月1日起或114年後停止逐年條項部分"},{"start":2679.033,"end":2691.404,"text":"教職研部分將使未來五十年年改節省經費挹注退伏基金減少約一千六百五十二億元導致退伏基金用期年度再提前三到四年對"},{"start":2692.901,"end":2712.722,"text":"基金財務安全產生衝擊且現行規定下約85%退休教職員實施夜退休所得超過5萬元平均每月支領金額約5.8萬元又現行已訂有配合消費者物價指數而啟動夜退休經調整之機制"},{"start":2714.003,"end":2733.055,"text":"調整後金額亦不受退休所得替代率上限限制原現行制度足以保障退休生活建請維持現行條文二提案修正第六十七條修正定期退伍給予以調整機制啟動條件調整比例考量因素及辦理期程等應退"},{"start":2734.016,"end":2756.098,"text":"退撫給予調整需考量退休所得整體之合理性以現值待遇間之橫頻及合理差異以及退撫基金財務安全及政府財政等因素不宜禁以消費者物價指數之累計成長率為調整比例或制定公式調整由107年至今以"},{"start":2756.698,"end":2782.107,"text":"二度調整業退休金合計調整6%現行制度應可提供適度保障三提案修正第九條增訂中央政府因每年因編制不低於各級政府所節省退伍經費之兩倍數額挹注退伍基金因現行規定以明定退伍基金由政府負最後保證責任且依"},{"start":2783.007,"end":2810.384,"text":"定有相關退伍基金財務切口由政府分年編列預算撥補至規定也原基於國家資源分配規劃彈性建議維持現行規定是提案修訂第三條增訂八十四年前已退休人員之退休知情撫恤事項人依原規定辦理基於橫平性考量不宜單獨排除特定年度以前退休是教職員中上現行"},{"start":2811.164,"end":2831.455,"text":"退府制度已在兼顧退休人員權益及退府基金財務擬定合理至退休所的替代力且經大法官肯認符合相關憲法原則據亦達成之改革目標原件請維持現行規定以上報告 期請各位委員不吝此證謝謝各位委員 謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長那接下來請循序部懷證次報告"},{"start":2844.125,"end":2867.79,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 今天大家早安今天大院審查國民黨黨團及部分立法院審查的提案關於公立學校教職員吹噓撫恤條例相關的提案基於公教人員的共同項目以及我們基金管理的立場 以上報告第一個是關於對於修正第37條跟38條的停止橋樑所得替代率的部分"},{"start":2868.51,"end":2887.57,"text":"那這個部分事實上我們那個退伍基金原來就是不足而提撥那我們在年改之前大概收支的部分是達到141.94%等於說收入的部分比那個支出部分更大那我們年改後已經調降到84.86%等於是有相當大的一個成果"},{"start":2888.03,"end":2913.025,"text":"另外在連改的時候相關的部分我們總共大概回饋到退伍基金裡面大概3390億多那如果我們停止調降的話未來我們這個缺口將會再減少2780多億那另外對於那個退伍基金用心的部分因為原來我們的設計是希望從本來是在119年就會用滿那我們後來連改以後已經把它調整讓它能夠到134年才"},{"start":2915.706,"end":2928.169,"text":"才那個用慶那麼是基於112年的7月1號新的退出專屋實施以後它的用慶時間又提前到132年那如果這次再予以再調整的話將會在用慶時間會提前到129年那整體來講大概中間還要再回補大概2700多億元"},{"start":2935.131,"end":2953.312,"text":"那另外一部分就關於要不要隨現實原因帶來調整的部分事實上目前有關於那個CPI政府5%就可以進行調整或每四年可以予以調整那目前我們在年改後已經大概先後已經調整過兩次總共合計增加6%那另外一個部分需要考量的是"},{"start":2953.772,"end":2972.263,"text":"限制人員的待遇如果跟退休人員待遇太過接近的話會鼓勵到很多人員就提早離開這樣部分事實上也會造成整個基金的重振的負擔如果說連限制人員待遇調整跟CPI同時都並行的話會造成整個財務的雙重負擔"},{"start":2973.784,"end":2988.255,"text":"另外我們在現行的退出制度上面事實上已經有最低門檻的一個保障那麼在這種情況下也不會說在118年以後會繼續往下去砍那麼在最後有提到就是說我們希望在那個"},{"start":2988.976,"end":3011.642,"text":"第三條把排除84年以前已經退休人員來的部分停止調降那以目前來講84年在年改之前已經退休人員就不是我們學校教職員退休條例適用的對象第三條這樣修正基本上在法治上是沒有失意但我們仔細來研讀提案說明的話如果真的要修正的話是應該要修正第三七條"},{"start":3012.302,"end":3030.492,"text":"不過這樣的修正可能要考慮到說84年以前可以豁免那85 86以後的相關聯約也是會有類似的一個情形發生這都需要一併來整個來考量那最後關於第九條要不要來編列預算部因為涉及到中央這種總預算編列那本部尊重那個財主單位意見 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 那接下來我們請張秋元副人事長報告"},{"start":3055.792,"end":3077.462,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早安感謝聯席會議邀請本總處來列席今天的會議以下僅就今天排審的十個委員提案修正公立學校教育園退休資權扶持條例說明本總處的意見第一"},{"start":3078.803,"end":3104.74,"text":"年金改革的目的是在強化基金的財務永續確保老年經濟生活無虞目前已經有初步的成果107年政府推動年金改革是為了要健全基金的財務達成世代互助並且實現政府基金跟國家永續發展的目標以目前的成果來看的確有效延長的"},{"start":3105.72,"end":3129.394,"text":"一個結果那考試院跟行政院在這個條例實施以後也依照條例的規定在施行的之後的5年也就是在112年已經完成了第一次的定體檢討檢討的結果考量現在的這個特務基金的財務一個世代30年內還是會有用盡的風險"},{"start":3131.335,"end":3155.611,"text":"另外配合112年7月1號開始實施的出任公交人員的個人專戶制的退伏制度衍生了一個退伏基金的財務缺口現在也必須繼續由政府來編列預算做撥補為了維持現有的改革成果現有的各項措施繼續維持然後也決定之後每五年會定期進行檢視那第二"},{"start":3160.92,"end":3180.001,"text":"如果停止所得替代率的遞減跟退休給予隨著限職人員調整或者是降退休給予的調整門檻都會衝擊基金的財務跟它的改革的成果也就是會讓基金的用慶的年度會提早"},{"start":3180.962,"end":3198.53,"text":"那大家關心的物價上漲的問題是在制度上已經有設計剛剛兩個部會也有多做說明就兩個條件一個是這個CPI達到政府5%第二個是每四年那這兩個機制之前其實也都已經有實施過總共調了6%"},{"start":3200.791,"end":3226.404,"text":"那最後政府推動年金改革主要的重點是要建立一個世世代代領得到長長久久領得到的年金制度那麼為了確保基金的長治久安它是一個整個制度有完整的配套所以我們會建議尊重退伍業務的主管機關教育部跟群區部的意見維持現行的規定以上報告請各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":3229.175,"end":3245.823,"text":"好 謝謝任市長那麼其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有要口頭報告或是補充的好 沒有的話那麼我們就機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":3247.523,"end":3276.663,"text":"那麼報告各位委員因為今天提案的這個就提出發言的委員的人數比較多所以我們接下來的詢答時間本聯席會的委員詢答時間為6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間為3分鐘均不再延長那麼上午10點半就截止發言登記那本日會議的請進行詢答那接下來我們就請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3285.19,"end":3312.102,"text":"謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱昏昏或是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部都在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來"},{"start":3318.379,"end":3330.378,"text":"委員長三位好 我實際的關係不一一問我首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例 總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說"},{"start":3332.901,"end":3361.266,"text":"新法生效以後現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了新法生效以後法律已經生效你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那天問選區部的部長我問他說啊你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有他跟我說有但問題是什麼問題是啊我們警察同仁跟我"},{"start":3362.372,"end":3386.374,"text":"提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有耶你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊"},{"start":3388.083,"end":3395.921,"text":"你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算施年傑跟我說有 這怎麼回事"},{"start":3397.099,"end":3419.318,"text":"現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦"},{"start":3419.958,"end":3447.088,"text":"怎麼會出現這樣的差異我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響"},{"start":3447.708,"end":3470.383,"text":"你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的是沒有 因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛"},{"start":3471.977,"end":3498.977,"text":"你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家"},{"start":3500.419,"end":3512.156,"text":"對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算"},{"start":3513.362,"end":3538.618,"text":"沒有預算 也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治 但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告 屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律 那是供預算編列那我們就沒有 這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛"},{"start":3539.358,"end":3549.791,"text":"你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊"},{"start":3550.885,"end":3575.553,"text":"而且我跟委員報告我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛"},{"start":3576.687,"end":3599.838,"text":"我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望"},{"start":3601.038,"end":3629.831,"text":"選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年"},{"start":3634.895,"end":3657.51,"text":"錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊"},{"start":3658.536,"end":3680.513,"text":"行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情"},{"start":3681.67,"end":3703.636,"text":"那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的 你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話 50年會增加1600多億嘛沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話 5年會增加1400多億啊"},{"start":3705.609,"end":3733.737,"text":"同一天喔到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個玄敘部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊50年 不管是1400多億還是1600多億平均一年多少錢就30億嘛"},{"start":3736.055,"end":3764.542,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費"},{"start":3766.621,"end":3793.259,"text":"給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流"},{"start":3794.52,"end":3804.162,"text":"明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年"},{"start":3814.485,"end":3828.61,"text":"跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補"},{"start":3836.914,"end":3865.549,"text":"教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎"},{"start":3866.824,"end":3892.86,"text":"有建議所以索隆他還是堅持己見那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體這個考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說"},{"start":3894.321,"end":3922.084,"text":"啊 如果教師停侃 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊"},{"start":3923.123,"end":3936.942,"text":"做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂"},{"start":3938.649,"end":3959.722,"text":"我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員請回座"},{"start":3969.465,"end":3971.886,"text":"好 那麼接下來我們請柯政委員發言謝謝主席 我們是不是請部長 教育部部長好 有請部長委員好"},{"start":3989.13,"end":4009.041,"text":"部长好我是提出第64条的修正动议但是在我进入主题之前我还是有个问题想问同样是全教总的问题我记得上上个礼拜我们提到有关于学校的校事会议没错吧部长跟部长不管曹也都提到校事会议大家是不需要精进但是呢你们就有一位前"},{"start":4009.761,"end":4039.174,"text":"这个主秘庄国荣教授他却在上礼拜五的时候对于全教总他认为他是没出息提到这个校师会议教育部完全没有任何的一个说法那你想请问他到底是吼给这个部长看指桑骂槐因为你明明告诉我们校师会议是要来做更精进的但是你却没有对于这样一个最大的教师团体被这样子的羞辱的时候教育部却完全没有任何的部分所以教育部是默许吗"},{"start":4040.729,"end":4061.398,"text":"跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊"},{"start":4061.909,"end":4088.339,"text":"他們有工作嗎 有吧沒有 就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似 但是教育部裡面沒錯 這就是一個重點啊但是呢 所有的權益修法教師法規審判 霸凌學生身心調適全部 很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個"},{"start":4088.899,"end":4092.442,"text":"如果都要參加這麼多的話 你們的法規處長在幹嘛他基本上是法學背景 當然在委員會 法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家 專業的一個學者是 非常多人可以去問 卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚 還有往下來去看特別是呢 他提出來 即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查 部長"},{"start":4114.398,"end":4116.701,"text":"你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們就要一個學校就要10萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重"},{"start":4130.356,"end":4133.198,"text":"但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛輸這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯 而且這位前主席當然 所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾"},{"start":4158.979,"end":4173.416,"text":"千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎"},{"start":4174.617,"end":4181.141,"text":"好 接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整"},{"start":4202.412,"end":4230.093,"text":"所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的這叫做好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長"},{"start":4231.614,"end":4257.296,"text":"對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟老保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以老保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍範圍誰可以回答我這個問題"},{"start":4259.707,"end":4280.799,"text":"那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務"},{"start":4286.963,"end":4308.267,"text":"年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六樣看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的公教人員需要做很多不同的方法每四年有這個政府CPI這個政府5%"},{"start":4312.688,"end":4324.316,"text":"是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊"},{"start":4335.703,"end":4363.782,"text":"所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力"},{"start":4365.478,"end":4389.809,"text":"好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員那麼因為今天這個登記發言的委員很多所以我們就是聯席委員會的委員發言時間是以6分鐘為限然後非本聯席委員會的委員發言則以3分鐘為限那接下來我們請外美林委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4395.563,"end":4421.783,"text":"好 接下來請萬委員 可以好 謝謝趙薇 我們有請部長不好意思 因為今天部長有提前請假他9點50分之後他請假 這麼重要的議題 為什麼可以請假之後10點有公務 還是說可是如果部長不在的話 這個問題 質詢就沒有代表性啦"},{"start":4423.669,"end":4448.764,"text":"因為之前有提出要不然就請萬委員執行完之後讓部長再理解因為我之前已經有同意部長然後接下來就會請政治代替好 謝謝 謝謝我們召委我想部長真的不好意思我一定得要請教您剛才您在這個備詢的這個最尾端說好我們會來努力我想我給您一點時間你告訴我針對這個我們年輕的這個部分這個議題你要怎麼努力"},{"start":4450.748,"end":4476.817,"text":"我想跟委員報告這一個它確實是當時的設立這一個年金的一個修改就是在一個世代的附註是啦那另外也跟委員報告我們其實看到我問你一個啦我今天看到您提出的書面報告您提出的報告上是寫說不建議修法來停砍年金這樣的一個說法這樣的報告這個立場是您本人的立場嗎"},{"start":4478.497,"end":4506.536,"text":"我其實跟委員報告就是說我們看到平均85%以上的這些老師是上次月退休金是5.8萬以上那以這一個再加上我們全民健保我們的這一個長照部長我只問您啦你講的這些我都有看但我就問您這是不是你個人主張的立場我們不建議修法停砍年金這是您個人主張的嗎但部長您是整個教育的大家長"},{"start":4507.677,"end":4526.664,"text":"持平的論我在橫豬我們台灣的各項的一個對退休這一個教師的一個退休的一個照顧我想怎麼樣去適當而能夠滿足他退休安全的一個這一個生活部長啊您的書面報告到底是幕僚寫的還是你有看過呀"},{"start":4527.421,"end":4542.457,"text":"我看過的您看過那請問一下針對今天的書面報告您本人的主張到底是不是不建議修改這個停凱年金基本上我是這樣認為因為我們有非常完善的一個您今天這麼清楚的這個全民健保跟這一哥"},{"start":4542.517,"end":4568.951,"text":"您今天這麼清楚的去講您個人的主張是不建議修法停侃這件事情我想真的是讓我們今天所有的教師會感到非常非常的痛心也非常的失望因為您是教育界的大家長但是理應是最理解我們教師的辛苦也理應是最會捍衛我們老師的權益的如果連部長都反對停侃年輕捍衛老師的退休的一個權益的照顧我想"},{"start":4570.633,"end":4586.304,"text":"現有的制度再加上我們中央跟地方的許多的主席把我的時間停止一下對 麻煩部長請尊重委員的發言抱歉發言完之後您再回答來 好 請開始謝謝趙偉我想因為您這個說得也很清楚了"},{"start":4586.804,"end":4615.383,"text":"如果您個人是這樣的建議那本席認為聽在所有我們基層老師的這個耳裡啊他們會非常痛心的因為呢您應該是最了解我們所有基層老師的辛苦也最了解現在在教育現場第一線的不容易喔那麼您現在喔這麼具體的反對這個停函年金喔等於是告訴全國的教師我並沒有反對以新階段來看他是一個師範國你剛剛有講您反對嘛這是你的立場嘛你等於啊是告訴全國的老師你們現在這些辛苦的付出喔其實是不值得被保障的啦"},{"start":4616.964,"end":4633.42,"text":"照顧 我想喔 我告訴你兩個喔 本席告訴你兩個 其實你自己心裡也知道 但我不知道你有什麼為難之處喔 我告訴你兩個年金停砍必須要停的這個兩大理由 第一個我們的所得替代率啊 已經砍到比勞工還要低了喔"},{"start":4633.92,"end":4657.731,"text":"我們退休的教師目前的這個所得替代率從107年到現在114年已經被砍了9%如果我們以年資30年的退休老師來看我們的所得替代率已經從67.5%降到了58.5%如果再往下砍我們就要低於勞工退休平均的替代率58%這是第一個 那麼第二個呢退休縫的條性啊"},{"start":4658.951,"end":4676.751,"text":"我們比不上現代的公務人員我們看到107年到現在現任的公務人員調薪11%退休人員我們退休人員只有6%足足差了5%所以我們看到如果我們的所得替代率比勞工還低我們調薪又比公務員來得還不如"},{"start":4677.392,"end":4683.394,"text":"我就不理解您是我們教育的大家長怎麼不知道要捍衛他們的權益所以我想部長你不要在這裡背詢聽後面跟你搖耳朵然後就來轉述自己不能了解"},{"start":4693.277,"end":4715.283,"text":"我覺得這樣是非常不好的啦那我想您從上任到現在大家都覺得你對教育其實很認真但是希望這件事情你剛剛說我們在努力我們希望你要努力捍衛我們這個教室的權益啦那當然我覺得上有政策但你下要摸著自己良心怎麼為這些老師來捍衛他們的權益那當然還剩一點時間今天要跟你討論的就是"},{"start":4717.608,"end":4744.016,"text":"我們在公務人員身心調適假的這件事情上面我想我們在教文委員會也聽過很多次全區部目前修正公務人員請假的規則也就是教育部同步修正了教師請假的規則讓我們的公務員跟教師10月10號開始起我們都有三天的身心調適假當然這個是很好可是您知道嗎新版的規定這三天身心調適假跟原本的七天的家庭照顧假"},{"start":4745.016,"end":4753.2,"text":"併入這一年只有七天的不扣薪試駕要併入啊 所以事實上喔這個就跟我們現在這個行政院在講什麼生一胎十萬塊結果要併入我們的這個社會保險一樣的喔 我覺得有點畫大餅啦所以呢 我想喔"},{"start":4761.243,"end":4786.843,"text":"部長是不是能夠在身心調適架上面我覺得要能夠做一些爭取能不能夠教育部跟權序部把這三天的身心調適架我們獨立出來從不扣薪的市價把它獨立出來讓我們真正所謂的三天的身心調適架能夠落實部長您的看法呢我想委員非常感謝委員關心委員也非常清楚"},{"start":4788.164,"end":4806.403,"text":"確實在整個精工教整個整個整體的考量我們老師只要請假他必須要他的課程必須要有人代理那這個部分過去試下是他要致富的那這個跟這個聲音調適教我們是由教育部跟地方國立的教育部全額補助然後"},{"start":4807.423,"end":4834.739,"text":"就縣市政府的這些國民教育的部分是由教育部跟地方共同合作來你應該在提的是代理代課教師的問題嘛對不對那一個全部都是包含在一邊的我跟你講每一個政策他會衍生出來很多我們應該要一併去解決的問題但不是因為會衍生出來那些問題我們就把最主要這個權益給砍掉所以我想今天我們提出來兩個問題我們希望部長回去好好替我們教育界替基層老師來想想怎麼捍衛他的權益好不好一定的謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4837.332,"end":4855.95,"text":"好 謝謝萬委員那接下來我們請陳培芸委員發言好 那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝"},{"start":4858.888,"end":4865.753,"text":"好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔"},{"start":4870.106,"end":4890.873,"text":"前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說"},{"start":4894.35,"end":4908.027,"text":"未來會出現繳得少退得早領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一經費不足二行業不平三世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下"},{"start":4912.485,"end":4930.12,"text":"啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下"},{"start":4931.261,"end":4953.374,"text":"有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難"},{"start":4954.975,"end":4979.83,"text":"我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠"},{"start":4980.911,"end":5007.788,"text":"我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務"},{"start":5010.39,"end":5021.386,"text":"在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人"},{"start":5022.799,"end":5047.228,"text":"年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事 淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行"},{"start":5048.851,"end":5066.097,"text":"好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本"},{"start":5068.263,"end":5085.369,"text":"我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以"},{"start":5087.33,"end":5108.482,"text":"我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年"},{"start":5109.022,"end":5126.965,"text":"下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第9次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來"},{"start":5127.686,"end":5155.655,"text":"整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年提前3到4年所以有可能是127或128128或129129就有可能用完那提早這4年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到"},{"start":5156.115,"end":5181.21,"text":"或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月實領退休所的你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那"},{"start":5184.452,"end":5205.252,"text":"跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想"},{"start":5205.992,"end":5233.924,"text":"創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止盡的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦"},{"start":5237.387,"end":5259.265,"text":"根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於退月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟限職人員薪資的一個橫平性限職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能說"},{"start":5260.607,"end":5274.104,"text":"我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降這樣真的有符合公平公義嗎"},{"start":5276.086,"end":5302.98,"text":"目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路"},{"start":5303.86,"end":5316.784,"text":"我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請王一川委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請教育部次長 謝謝"},{"start":5332.797,"end":5359.495,"text":"有請朱次長市長好上次我總質詢有問部長關於這個抖音TALK的問題最近交易部有沒有做什麼事跟委員報告我們目前針對小紅書跟抖音這方面的來自中國的APP依照行政院的指示事實上我們都有一些相關的建議措施來"},{"start":5361.816,"end":5388.282,"text":"比如說在小紅書我們有提出不迷小紅書 青春不迷圖在抖音的部分我們有短影音專區針對裡面可能涉及的一些詐騙或是一些不實錯假訊息我們都有整理出來放到專區未來也會再從專區去哪裡放 去抖音放還是怎樣專區我們會你看抖音的人你要說抖音的不好你不就拿去抖音放這樣看得到嗎"},{"start":5391.621,"end":5404.692,"text":"我們目前大概是第一個部分是掛在我們各學校的網站裡你如果要掛說要出一支條 要做這短片你就去抖音把它放 說你這抖音不好那抖音這要傳回來給人家看到邏輯是不是這樣我以為我聽起來說的時候我沒有想到 普通校院長說要請一些團體大家討論這個國中小校園禁用抖音的事情這事情要加速"},{"start":5421.06,"end":5426.844,"text":"因為家長啊 家長都幾十多教育現場的老師啊 會覺得說 哇 這可能麻煩麻煩啊 一些小朋友啊 也知道這個消息因為會覺得說 哇 這東西我不能看所以多方的考量所以請教育部啊 在這個這一題上面啊這個大家討論 就是不一定答案是什麼我是主張要緊"},{"start":5448.989,"end":5472.328,"text":"我是主張要這個校園 內地啦齁當然這個數位部 他們有說嘛齁 他們有說這個就是把這個抖音在校園裡頭 給它屏蔽掉啦齁阿抖音叫TikTok一樣的東西不是給一個英語而已 再高級不是說 喔喔TikTok不是抖音TikTok就抖音啦 什麼英語而已啦那後台也是中國啦 幾乎幾乎什麼 喔TikTok就不是 都是"},{"start":5477.452,"end":5484.534,"text":"研究看看 這校園裡面都要緊張好 第二個我請問一下 現在我們今天討論的這些條文剛剛有委員說這個所得替代率 說什麼B 六天再加給我量一段 量到B50幾%這數字是怎樣 給我補充 沒時間談 你講一下"},{"start":5504.848,"end":5533.116,"text":"跟委員報告因為是不同性質的一個保險或職業年紀的性質其實以所得替代率來講或許在有些部分勞保會比較高可是因為回到實際的投保薪資來講其實整體來說公教人員的月退租金還是普遍的比勞保所領的月退還要高普遍啦對公教捏比勞保還多這聽起來也正常正常"},{"start":5534.171,"end":5550.179,"text":"因為公交要科技嘛公交要科技所以現在你說你省給平均5.8萬現在已經退休了啦是 已經退休了好 我請問你退休的公交人員現在最多多少最多多少一個位這因為跟他的薪職 年資都不太一樣我知道我知道 最多可以多少平均"},{"start":5564.792,"end":5592.151,"text":"跟委員報告 平均來講因為剛剛有報告過 平均來講大概是五萬八嘛沒有啦 這平均就不準 有人捏多 有人捏少 最多要捏多少最多的資料可能還要查 再給委員沒有 你如果說這個什麼公立學校的老師做到好端就四十年四十年退休 最多他要捏多少跟委員報告 最多在這裡的資料大概八萬六"},{"start":5592.97,"end":5609.965,"text":"八萬六 最少的最少有三萬幾喔但是三萬幾的人其實大概差不多一千六百幾為什麼你那麼少這就是剛才市長說的因為這年資有關係跟他當時在限職的時候 他的本薪是有關係所以本薪本來就低"},{"start":5620.083,"end":5636.973,"text":"然後他可能那個年資也不長那就退了 是不是這樣我跟委員報告一個數據就是說我們如果以實質的所得替代率來講大概落的區間就是最高到最低大概是落在你薪資大概是73%到53%左右"},{"start":5639.778,"end":5649.42,"text":"那這樣子的一個所得替代率大概跟OECD國家比起來我們最低都還是OECD國家比較高不是啦 其他國家比不要比啦因為其他國家大家的物價水準不一樣啦我們現在跟社會說 其實退休的老師退休的老師啦 公立學校老師最多啦 你要最高人家好長啦已經做三四十年 退休的他也差不多八萬幾啦 我這樣說對不對最高 好"},{"start":5666.164,"end":5668.83,"text":"阿吉豪做儘管的 他可能本地薪水就多 連資委也沒做到很久他就退了 他也只有三萬幾啦"},{"start":5676.415,"end":5695.867,"text":"這樣說對不對目前的地板是37,000啦地板是37,000對 那有些比37,000更低是因為在連改之前它本來的月退就是比較低所以那個原來就低於37,000的這一次的連改根本不會去動到好 這樣剛才說這條時間有調過6%所以你想這三萬多的它也對在調就對了是八萬多的也都有對在調是"},{"start":5703.086,"end":5727.009,"text":"那那個條的機制就是今天有委員提出來的幾年檢討百分之多少就從那個地方動了嘛對不對是 67條很明確的規定就是政府百分之五或是我們如果沒有條每四年就會檢討一次好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝王委員總是非常遵守時間 謝謝您接下來我們請劉淑冰委員發言"},{"start":5739.019,"end":5742.542,"text":"請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策 謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝"},{"start":5760.049,"end":5787.195,"text":"好 主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務 處事長"},{"start":5790.885,"end":5818.165,"text":"依照98條規定有缺口 政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 是按照精算報告對 那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目"},{"start":5819.773,"end":5836.471,"text":"我們依法來辦理你們依法來辦理 對好 依法辦理 所以依法好 這邊我們看到希望這一邊會是非常重要的因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分這會看出他的態度好 但是可以看到的是你可以看到人"},{"start":5837.85,"end":5850.223,"text":"主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看到勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊"},{"start":5851.638,"end":5874.203,"text":"報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那113年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在"},{"start":5876.704,"end":5890.552,"text":"112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們知道113年的時候確實撥補了100億並沒有到精算報告那這邊"},{"start":5897.256,"end":5909.249,"text":"但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎"},{"start":5910.649,"end":5921.698,"text":"依照精算報告部裡面我們是以10年針對新制的缺口是以10年來撥補對 那你10年的話可是看到真正103年的時候破事實上是100億來講差額這麼大這樣子的話並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看得到如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到135年那這135年因為當初"},{"start":5939.091,"end":5950.823,"text":"的這個這個報告當中呢精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你111年加50年就是162年來講的話這邊就是他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成"},{"start":5956.869,"end":5962.353,"text":"你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變0的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了"},{"start":5975.627,"end":5995.02,"text":"這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來但是這地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情教育部跟"},{"start":5996.874,"end":6017.841,"text":"跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話或怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這個地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下好"},{"start":6018.641,"end":6044.27,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補那這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口那你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為"},{"start":6046.751,"end":6074.97,"text":"110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總處這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施能傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況"},{"start":6076.511,"end":6096.065,"text":"跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊"},{"start":6098.087,"end":6118.063,"text":"我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎"},{"start":6128.702,"end":6139.159,"text":"在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配博博我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力"},{"start":6140.185,"end":6166.618,"text":"好我們繼續往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退府給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退府條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數正負達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是"},{"start":6167.478,"end":6194.427,"text":"以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯但是我們看到的是今年在6月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅"},{"start":6194.867,"end":6214.013,"text":"基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算"},{"start":6215.668,"end":6244.144,"text":"報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是 我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上"},{"start":6244.915,"end":6266.544,"text":"好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔 退休之後的他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整 因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育的教育委員會呢"},{"start":6267.384,"end":6294.703,"text":"是不是請朱市長那邊或是主計處這邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在屬於教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話他可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考"},{"start":6295.143,"end":6310.432,"text":"好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟"},{"start":6322.519,"end":6334.91,"text":"跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以說說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它的效果"},{"start":6336.334,"end":6360.2,"text":"我們會後也針對第九次精算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這一部分就陳貞嘉說這一部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":6365.714,"end":6394.128,"text":"那接下來我們請葛如君委員發言好 謝謝主席有請教育部朱俊彰次長好 有請朱次長"},{"start":6396.505,"end":6412.765,"text":"委員好次長好我想本席認為今天召委排審公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例真的是在捍衛公平正義維持退休教師應有的待遇跟尊嚴"},{"start":6414.623,"end":6430.42,"text":"我們有看到教育部現在理論上應該要支持修法的方向但是我們看到書面報告裡面對於這次的態度卻傾向於維持現狀理由有各種各樣"},{"start":6431.68,"end":6453.739,"text":"甚至還提到未來這樣子做的話未來50年預計將減少1600億的收入但是老實說我們的政府台電撥補大筆一揮就是1000億結果50年1600億的差距就要靠剝奪我們這些退休教師的待遇跟尊嚴來達成"},{"start":6455.06,"end":6465.634,"text":"教育部為什麼對這次的修法持反對的意見為什麼不能逐額撥補這個朱市長您的意見是不是讓您表達一下您支持教育部這樣的立場嗎您個人支持嗎"},{"start":6467.041,"end":6487.873,"text":"根文報告在這一次的一個提案部裡面是建議維持現行條文那原因有以下幾個第一個部分就是說以目前整個不好意思 朱市長我打斷您我不需要看到您更多因為這其實報告裡都寫了不需要重複報告我問的是您個人你個人支持嗎"},{"start":6488.993,"end":6510.535,"text":"您摸著良心 您支持嗎我很感念年金改革是世代間的互助所以我怎麼樣讓在職的人員能夠安心50年只為了節省50年的1600億去剝奪這些教育跟尊嚴 您個人支持支持教育部要維持現狀 不支持修法"},{"start":6511.465,"end":6539.527,"text":"跟委員報告1650而已只是節省下來挹注到我們原來的退伍基金但是政府另外要撥補的甚至說因為這次停降可能引發的其他的缺口那個經費是更高的市長該做的事要做不要用各種的理由去剝奪這些待遇為什麼其實我們剛剛講到要世代互助要世代融合你想像如果有一間公司雇主在員工入職的時候"},{"start":6539.847,"end":6557.453,"text":"谈好了薪资待遇结果呢在员工退休以后呢说啊你的这个退休所得啊每年减少1.5%然后呢现在的这个通膨啊每年大概2%所以呢一增一减之间啊我算过了啦在20年就只剩下一半啊"},{"start":6557.853,"end":6586.98,"text":"那違背了當初跟員工談好的條件您認為這樣的雇主值得信任嗎年輕人找工作會考慮這樣的一個公司跟事業嗎事實上我們並不是隨便在亂罵根據Teach for Taiwan引用泰報所整理的數據112年來看我們有22.6萬人有合格教師證但是有7.4萬人領了教師證卻沒有進入教職去選擇其他工作"},{"start":6587.66,"end":6612.777,"text":"其實就是你們這樣的出爾反爾造成的嘛年輕人根本不願意投入進去這是個挑戰7萬多佔整體失智人力的33%我們都幫你算好了更有高達7成以上70%哦足被失智表示不願意投入教職為什麼講好的事情不願意投入不願意履行承諾嘛那同時啊最明顯的現象還有什麼"},{"start":6613.577,"end":6623.03,"text":"剛剛次長講了要世代互助世代協作世代融合結果我們30歲以下的教師占比明顯低於世界各國國小4.9%"},{"start":6626.734,"end":6644.734,"text":"國中2%高中只有4.1%普遍很低啊其他的國家鄰近的日本 韓國30歲以下國小教師的比例16% 11%新的人力不願意投入根據翻轉教育今年發布的青獅教育困境調查"},{"start":6645.795,"end":6671.662,"text":"還有38%的現職教師剛剛我們已經提到33%不願意進來接下來有70%不願意投入現在留下來的還有38%說在三年內要離開教職每年有15%的公費生寧願解約不跟你玩了請問市長我們的教育部有沒有體認到這些警訊"},{"start":6672.982,"end":6681.956,"text":"還在繼續當灌老闆繼續凹老師做功德以前是恐夫子啊現在變成恐功德市長你要不要回應一下"},{"start":6684.127,"end":6712.505,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為第一個目前零有教師證的大概有67%都是在已經有在服務所以三層這個數據其實我們有提出澄清過那另外就是說我們在這一塊我想應該更主要的除了退休人員保障這一塊是一個但是我們怎麼樣讓限職人員可以留住留住老師願意投入這個行業我想這是我們目前更需要做的啦"},{"start":6712.845,"end":6735.92,"text":"所以在這一塊也謝謝委員關心校師會議未來的福利不是一個條件嗎已經答應的事情不能反悔不是條件嗎因為在依照大法官您認為我們教育部這樣子去調整去不支持我們的修法您不覺得就是在鼓勵年輕人不要投入這樣的事業嗎您覺得這兩者之間沒有關聯嗎"},{"start":6739.147,"end":6762.443,"text":"有沒有關聯福利有沒有關聯年金有沒有關聯有關聯嘛好啦沒關係這個我還是希望教育部重新考慮但是啊還有更嚴重的問題啊對不起市長我想您是很專業的我是真的要代替全國的老師要來講這件事回顧20年來基本工資大幅調漲"},{"start":6763.939,"end":6784.918,"text":"部長您知道2006年到2026年20年間我們的平均時薪漲幾%您知道嗎體察民意嘛你可不可以講一下基本時薪喔基本時薪漲幾%你知道嗎基本時薪不是教師的喔社會的狀態基本時薪漲幾%沒關係我補充給您197%"},{"start":6791.277,"end":6802.983,"text":"那您知道我們的國中我們的高中薪資漲幾%市長知不知道這個你應該要知道了吧漲幾%這35年來還不是20年35年來漲幾%漲幾%主席我時間暫停一下漲幾%我現在真的要落淚了35年漲幾%"},{"start":6822.101,"end":6844.27,"text":"35年了是否麻煩讓我們會後去查最近4年是漲了謝謝 謝謝主席 時間繼續喔我告訴您啦35年來國高中只調過一次國高中 國高中您剛剛可能有人一直在跟你講一些別的啦國高中啊 高中400塊漲到420塊國中360塊漲到378塊 我有沒有講錯"},{"start":6850.484,"end":6870.285,"text":"這個數字不敢跟市長講啊20年基本薪資漲197%國中 高中 漲5%在國會的殿堂 你的幕僚不敢告訴你啊市長你不知道 你萬事繁忙 我們可以體察"},{"start":6871.57,"end":6884.106,"text":"我真的是替喔 這些教師喔真的是感到難過啊這個漲幅喔 18塊18塊連一支原子筆在2025年可能都快要買不起了所以市長"},{"start":6885.529,"end":6909.387,"text":"我給您一個機會因為一直有傳言說教育部正在研議調漲教師終點費這是部長在總諮詢9月份的時候提到的但我現在很擔心因為你們連對這個數字都不清楚我想請您透露一下現在研議的方案到底是什麼因為照這個197%我們高中至少應該要漲到可能要漲到1000塊國中可能要漲到將近1000塊"},{"start":6915.785,"end":6934.313,"text":"現在研議的方案是什麼可不可以透露一下根本報告方向我們當然是希望能夠再拉高那至於說拉高的幅度它會涉及到政府財政的問題還有各類人員的一個衡評問題所以我們會整體的考量但是方向上我們是希望把它拉高"},{"start":6935.014,"end":6942.667,"text":"謝謝 不好意思我是真的是替教師感到難過啦所以希望您可以包含因為5%比上197%怎麼會有年輕人願意進來啦"},{"start":6947.078,"end":6974.501,"text":"那我覺得我們真的是要給世代一個機會那另外這個導師職務加給也是13年沒有調整這個我想次長你應該知道每個月只有3000塊那現在行政又很繁雜又有很多手機啦數位網路的服務啦這個提醒次長啦這個如果老師是社會的燈塔可不可以不要連蠟燭的錢都省給他們一個好的工作環境條件還有福利可以嗎"},{"start":6975.262,"end":6999.142,"text":"各級內容支付加息這塊也是目前也在評估的範圍內也希望能夠做適當的反應再拜託積極那另外還是有一些議題請教次長這個非常難過的消息其實是這個資通訊的這個不流通這個本席了解因為他這個在申請這個休學的時候需要做很多的這個實體申請"},{"start":7001.064,"end":7023.719,"text":"那這個電子簽章其實教育部沒有排除試用請問能不能加速大專院校試用電子簽章可不可以這一塊我們會來瞭解來處理不要讓這些已經非常辛苦了打工還有很多的工作結果他要實體的去辦理這些東西他可能沒有時間資訊的流通也很重要那最後跟主席爭取一點點時間"},{"start":7026.521,"end":7053.44,"text":"不好意思對 我馬上結束因為我們今天的委員很多好 我馬上結束這個青少年詐騙的情況112到113年是倍增那114年的第一劑呢是這個9000多人接下來有可能會再倍增那這個占比非常的高現在總受害人數兩成是青少年那這一點教育部有沒有掌握"},{"start":7053.86,"end":7079.66,"text":"有沒有要做一些更多的處理是 謝謝委員提醒事實上我們在每一年開學就會有為期一個月的校園友善安全中其中針對反詐這塊就是我們的一個重點那我們有一些相關的措施跟成果會後我們可以整體提供給委員參考好 謝謝 謝謝次長好 不好意思 謝謝因為今天真的發言委員很多所以才提醒委員們控制發言時間好 謝謝"},{"start":7085.663,"end":7086.244,"text":"好 謝謝接下來有請翁曉琳委員被質詢質詢好 這邊有請次長還有群術部部長群術部次長 歡迎次長請官員被質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":7112.299,"end":7134.578,"text":"市長兩位市長好那個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年金改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏"},{"start":7135.999,"end":7151.507,"text":"退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎"},{"start":7156.403,"end":7172.769,"text":"對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在"},{"start":7173.689,"end":7200.344,"text":"你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產"},{"start":7202.141,"end":7208.301,"text":"但是破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔最後支付的義務"},{"start":7210.253,"end":7231.819,"text":"請問次長兩位次長是吧是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個"},{"start":7233.479,"end":7254.663,"text":"跟所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的利益"},{"start":7256.024,"end":7275.363,"text":"那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落"},{"start":7276.184,"end":7297.41,"text":"那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革"},{"start":7297.91,"end":7314.722,"text":"那我認為這個是一個終止政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再回復權力得到相當的正義喔那麼所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是"},{"start":7318.897,"end":7334.583,"text":"我这边的话我要请教的就是这个怀次长你们在这里左计算右计算你们从一开始当时在推动退府基金的建制之初你们就说是采取不足额提拨"},{"start":7336.325,"end":7358.644,"text":"一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說我們政府會不足而提撥所以遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是 這個跟委員報告一下這個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果"},{"start":7363.468,"end":7370.506,"text":"充分的在補足這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應"},{"start":7371.394,"end":7396.396,"text":"我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情有為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯"},{"start":7398.833,"end":7423.56,"text":"因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億啊所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中"},{"start":7423.88,"end":7450.9,"text":"是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是政府完全不體諒他們然後打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面"},{"start":7453.041,"end":7468.82,"text":"其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整"},{"start":7469.321,"end":7489.91,"text":"那我根据这次卫福部的报告说近年来卫福部针对他主管的六项居今天性质的年金给付包含老年年金给付什么老年基本保险金遗嘱年金身心障碍年金等等原住民等等这些给付他们总共办理了三次给付调整作业105年的时候调整3.65%109年调整了3.97%113年则是调整了7.34%"},{"start":7498.533,"end":7523.559,"text":"可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了"},{"start":7525.518,"end":7543.593,"text":"所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎我跟委員報告喔因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告"},{"start":7544.502,"end":7559.434,"text":"我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比"},{"start":7560.612,"end":7588.14,"text":"退休公教人員退休金他越退收他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情"},{"start":7589.209,"end":7603.414,"text":"好那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝謝謝王小林委員質詢官員請回座謝謝好有請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":7619.313,"end":7639.415,"text":"謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們教育部的副次長還有我們全區部的副次長有請副次長還有副次長兩位次長談這個退服尤其是公教這樣的一個制度"},{"start":7640.256,"end":7658.218,"text":"站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋"},{"start":7659.372,"end":7670.486,"text":"基金它本來就是一個水庫啦它本來就是一個水庫啦你退休的人多領的話你債值的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛"},{"start":7672.714,"end":7690.157,"text":"那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年,那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後,你提前到2040年,它就沒幾天了嘛,沒幾天了。那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面,"},{"start":7691.229,"end":7709.695,"text":"那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看"},{"start":7710.915,"end":7739.32,"text":"這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不爭議的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不爭議啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產"},{"start":7740.578,"end":7746.642,"text":"會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是 跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障"},{"start":7767.395,"end":7792.652,"text":"那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討"},{"start":7794.494,"end":7804.808,"text":"在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法"},{"start":7806.589,"end":7830.284,"text":"這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嗎那任何人發動這場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題4至7、8、1、7、8、2、7、8、3"},{"start":7833.346,"end":7853.786,"text":"把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數"},{"start":7855.067,"end":7870.519,"text":"第一就大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦"},{"start":7871.039,"end":7896.653,"text":"大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是同樣貼紙所以啊"},{"start":7900.154,"end":7923.705,"text":"我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去"},{"start":7926.363,"end":7936.871,"text":"你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一直改革下去說本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊是延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你政府財政你強加嘛你政府還要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛"},{"start":7948.248,"end":7964.415,"text":"水龍頭水不能轉出來不是這樣說那個次長 懷次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的機制讓學校的調查程序更完備"},{"start":7965.875,"end":7979.474,"text":"也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌體罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強"},{"start":7981.096,"end":7999.853,"text":"但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣"},{"start":8000.903,"end":8018.588,"text":"這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件"},{"start":8019.068,"end":8048.848,"text":"那我要請教教育部了就是說那關於這兩種說法看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的"},{"start":8049.248,"end":8068.35,"text":"第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎"},{"start":8069.171,"end":8079.939,"text":"其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行"},{"start":8080.768,"end":8100.387,"text":"今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校事會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮"},{"start":8101.488,"end":8121.815,"text":"那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較符正的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員長好 謝謝那麼我們謝謝鍾委員"},{"start":8128.325,"end":8139.995,"text":"那麼我們先做會議程序的宣告待會在林一錦委員發言完畢之後因為差不多到11點我們先休息5分鐘然後之後再請委員們繼續的來質詢那麼首先先請林委員謝謝主席有請全序部懷次長好有請懷次長委員早"},{"start":8158.732,"end":8177.068,"text":"市長早我想民進黨政府推動年金改革為的是就在讓年金的制度永續的經營保障年輕的公教人員在退休後都可以領到退休金也確保每個世代年老時都能安穩無虞的生活"},{"start":8177.728,"end":8197.874,"text":"所以國民黨現在的這種反年改的行徑其實真的是反其道而行它會讓放任財務的缺口越來越大其實是真的負責任那我們來現在檢視一下現行的公教退府基金面臨什麼挑戰如果依照退府基金最新的第九次的精算報告"},{"start":8198.934,"end":8209.919,"text":"公務員退府基金破產的時間已經從2049年提前到2045年那教育人員的退府基金的破產時間也從2045提前到2042那為了彌補這個財務上的這個缺口喔所以我們現在還在積極投入預算來做撥補"},{"start":8218.803,"end":8236.271,"text":"那當我們努力在搶救年金的同時那國民黨卻拼命製造年金的破口所以要請這個次長說明一下國民黨今天的這樣子的反年改的這個惡法是不是會進一步加速年金的破產"},{"start":8237.666,"end":8255.137,"text":"跟委員報告就是說如果說我們照目前的提案內容來看的話因為我們要停止調降那停止調降事實上在未來因為我們原來是到118年我們預期本來到118年不管是公務員的部分或教室的部分大概還可以再回頭挹注基金大概2700多億"},{"start":8257.058,"end":8276.398,"text":"這部分這個當然就會就沒有那當然這個那因為你調降以後那不但沒有進來那當然你這個就因為我們調降後這樣就等於是說支出的部分要相對增加那當然對我們整個基金的那個財務的壓力當然就會增加更多那這個大概是一個那另外一個部分說如果你要再隨從現職人員待遇調整的話"},{"start":8277.919,"end":8304.918,"text":"那這個部分就被造成說限職人員的待遇如果跟退休人員的待遇太接近因為您也知道限職人員部分是繼續在工作嘛那如果說我們這個太接近的話老實講人的本性一定想說那我如果差沒多少我幹嘛那麼辛苦還繼續工作那會引起那個早退的這樣跟事實上跟大概目前包括我所知道的包括即使在像在中國大陸他們也在希望的延後那個退休的整個趨勢是不太一樣這以上簡單報告"},{"start":8305.859,"end":8327.199,"text":"好 那如果真的要解決問題喔我想現在當然就是所謂的如何撥補這個年輕的缺口嘛那我們知道說現在的撥補策略分10年跟20年那當然正在老師們的立場當然期待說國家採取10年的方案喔那能在更短的時間投入這個充分的資源"},{"start":8327.759,"end":8343.514,"text":"不但也降低風險 促進這個基金的穩健也同時會對老師 對基金比較有信心那國家其實必須付出的總預算也會比較少那可是我看了一下明年度的預算 行政院"},{"start":8344.775,"end":8362.503,"text":"依照第九次精算報告是要分20年撥補的金額來編列那誠如剛剛本席所說的越快補足退伏基金的缺口那總額就會越少所以再請教次長說明一下明年度的預算還是採20年撥補的考量是什麼"},{"start":8364.744,"end":8381.185,"text":"那困難是什麼跟委員報告 事實上我們在112年由部裡面跟教育部我們有開過一個會議我們當然是希望20年撥補那在112年 希望20年撥補沒有沒有講錯 希望10年 抱歉抱歉這我口誤 希望10年撥補"},{"start":8382.046,"end":8403.508,"text":"但是因為國家的預算編制權你也知道這是屬於行政院的權限那我們有提出這樣的一個想法那這個部分最終還是要由行政院跟主席總書這邊來做那我們在115年部分已經大概編列了大概218億的部分未來在預算審查的時候也敬請各位委員給我們支持以上報告"},{"start":8404.451,"end":8432.446,"text":"那我當然可以理解就是說我們中央政府有很多的政策事務需要很靈活的預算來運用可是本席還是強調採10年撥補這是對基金的永續當然也是對中央財政支出最有利的方案所以以後再來明年度的這個應該說下一個年度的預算編列的時候是不是再來努力來改採10年撥補的方式我們會繼續爭取我們都一直都有在爭取"},{"start":8434.388,"end":8452.947,"text":"提高撥補 謝謝好 那我們談撥補那麼多喔 其實如果這個修法通過的話 其實還是一場空因為你之前二修才化法那從中央拿走4165億喔那當然這個我要請教次長 這個你覺得對退伏基金的撥補的規劃有沒有影響"},{"start":8455.029,"end":8470.119,"text":"不好意思因為我並不是財政這方面預算的那個想當然一定會有影響嘛因為整個中央政府的這個財政規劃那好那今天今天這樣子來來修法那我想某個程度啦"},{"start":8470.359,"end":8490.817,"text":"一定是全盤打亂了我們撥普的策略就像你們在下一個年度要爭取十年撥普或許又因為財政整個狀況的這個雪上加霜的局面所以我想這個還是要請次長再努力一下就是說下一個年度既然明年已經二十年撥普的計畫那是不是在下一個年度往十年比較健全的體制去走"},{"start":8491.787,"end":8501.852,"text":"我們會繼續爭取謝謝市長主席我現在先請人事副人事長張張副人事長謝謝請張副人事長我想談完退休人員的權利我要替在職老師說說話所以跟人事總處來探討一下軍公教員工待遇審議委員會欠缺受僱者參與會議代表的問題"},{"start":8521.166,"end":8547.908,"text":"就像是全國教師會他被排除在外被排除在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會那我們知道說其實這個薪資這個部分有僱主跟受僱者之間的溝通機制的完備會比起我們立法委員直接透過立法權來調升軍公教的薪資待遇會更符合所謂的憲政秩序也對國家長遠的發展會比較有幫忙"},{"start":8548.849,"end":8566.919,"text":"那軍公教的薪資2018年調薪3%2022年調薪4%2024年調薪4%2025年調薪3%這些都是實質薪資的增加那不只是最低薪資的調升我們很清楚喔 政府是有誠意來照顧軍公教人員"},{"start":8568.4,"end":8579.743,"text":"但因為調薪相關機制欠缺受僱者參與喔那這樣的好意就會被打折所以我覺得這個軍公教員工待遇這個調整的議題的座談會你在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會之前會辦一個調整的議題座談會"},{"start":8590.106,"end":8617.595,"text":"那這個也都被一般的教師團體認為說這個就是行李如意的年度大拜拜摸頭大會罷了啦所以我是不是詳情地詢問一下說是不是可以納入受僱者就像類似說教師就是全國教師會的代表那你公務人員可能就是公務協會的代表之類的來參加這個待遇審議委員會那如果不行的話那你那有困難度在哪裡"},{"start":8621.724,"end":8644.017,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這個議題就是朝野很多委員都在關心我們過去也都做了說明現在調新的機制是有制度化來做處理包括剛剛委員提到的在我們會有一個跟軍公教團體的相關的這個諮詢會議我們這些意見也都會在我們給這個"},{"start":8649.9,"end":8665.969,"text":"行政院的這個方案當中 會把這些意見通通如實的呈現 那個會議紀錄也都會在我們的官網上面 既然是如此的話 那為什麼就不讓他們進來 你說如果全國教師代表"},{"start":8666.929,"end":8688.367,"text":"你這個審議委員會其實人很多所以你多一個 兩個 三個代表其實都不能對於這個會議的決定有什麼樣的關鍵性的因素可是 他們就是有一起參與不用你之前在辦一個所謂座談會來諮詢就直接納入在這個審議委員會一起來討論嘛這個有很困難嗎"},{"start":8692.025,"end":8720.516,"text":"跟委員包括我們也是朝這個方向在努力所以我們這個法治正法案方案就是把我們在職的這個基層的代表納入那現在就是還在排審當中好 那請再努力啦這個某個程度讓收購者跟這個顧者有效的這個溝通才是我們未來最有利的方向啦 好不好OK 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8721.072,"end":8723.01,"text":"好謝謝林委員好那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9036.806,"end":9038.388,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那接下來請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席我們有請詮釋部好請懷次長"},{"start":9061.044,"end":9082.905,"text":"委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣"},{"start":9083.826,"end":9101.576,"text":"那左邊我們也可以看到歐規哲老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實"},{"start":9102.557,"end":9126.116,"text":"不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都已經在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說"},{"start":9126.977,"end":9140.97,"text":"好像的確中國比較好尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅"},{"start":9142.071,"end":9157.293,"text":"我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務"},{"start":9158.837,"end":9175.427,"text":"那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範"},{"start":9176.408,"end":9191.022,"text":"对 因为他如果没有兼行正职他就不算 对不对好 那接下来就是我要跟你讨论的地方就算因为在我们现在公务 教务人员他教育人员并不属于公务人员的一个服务法可是他同样是领我们国家的薪水同样是拿我们纳税人的薪水"},{"start":9192.003,"end":9221.563,"text":"那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉"},{"start":9221.903,"end":9222.026,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9223.018,"end":9252.058,"text":"教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們的教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部"},{"start":9253.792,"end":9278.971,"text":"謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國等等對 我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢"},{"start":9280.692,"end":9298.806,"text":"我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況"},{"start":9300.367,"end":9320.253,"text":"那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛委員展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是就法治"},{"start":9320.473,"end":9336.231,"text":"國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整啦"},{"start":9336.451,"end":9360.936,"text":"好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退府金是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了"},{"start":9362.062,"end":9380.575,"text":"教育部請回 謝謝這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補"},{"start":9381.596,"end":9410.573,"text":"才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的"},{"start":9410.973,"end":9427.364,"text":"所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零"},{"start":9429.646,"end":9451.305,"text":"教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金"},{"start":9455.288,"end":9484.475,"text":"那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們節約前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作"},{"start":9484.935,"end":9501.651,"text":"都会有一些争议嘛就增加那个收益的部分所以让我们基金会比较大那如果这样的话等于就是停在那个地方而且我们还要再多支出以上我想确认一下我之前读到报告是说大概可能在提前三四年就会见底了是吗这是正确的吗对对对好那我有一些建议我觉得就是说"},{"start":9502.392,"end":9514.993,"text":"我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個"},{"start":9516.881,"end":9531.267,"text":"抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化"},{"start":9533.308,"end":9562.018,"text":"第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答"},{"start":9562.298,"end":9578.751,"text":"我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右"},{"start":9579.972,"end":9596.384,"text":"我們未來還會持續來爭取希望行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI 正負百分之五就算你沒有達到正負百分之五四年我們一定會檢討"},{"start":9597.185,"end":9612.855,"text":"所以一定會檢討就對了對 這兩個機制都同時存在那我們事實上已經從實施新制退休補給以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右了解好 所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了那我簡單最後一句話做個總結"},{"start":9615.516,"end":9638.304,"text":"就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員那接下來我們請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":9646.789,"end":9653.971,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請教育部 朱長赤好 請朱次長程序部 懷政次"},{"start":9655.177,"end":9679.159,"text":"還有人事總署張副人事長我們城上剛剛有委員特別關注老師的言論是否中立那我想剛剛他所提到的案例是媒體採訪甚至是網路應用那我們也很關心剛剛我們的朱常志有提到老師的言論應該要中立 是嗎"},{"start":9680.487,"end":9693.139,"text":"教育基本法我們教育本來應該就本中立的立場剛剛委員所提到如果對於這個言論有所偏頗應該對於整個退府的機制上應該給予一些制度上入法給予懲罰"},{"start":9694.488,"end":9721.047,"text":"那我想問一下有老師對於在野黨的立委批評甚至是直接在課堂上給予這個影片教學帶入偏頗甚至是對於他自己的個人批評去攻擊在野黨的主席黃國昌甚至是在野黨的立委你覺得在教學的課堂當中帶入這樣子的一個影片甚至是這樣的言語他中立嗎 請問"},{"start":9723.095,"end":9742.97,"text":"各位報告 我想學校的環境還是要回到學術專業的考量那教育亦負如此所以有關個案的部分如果有我們都會請學校去了解實際狀況是如何我想這個時候就說是個案那我要講的是 PIMPLE 的言論應該要有統一的標準不要兩套標準"},{"start":9743.61,"end":9767.933,"text":"那对于自己的政党有利益的话我想就给予宽限我想这是不对的应该对于教育上我们都是要一视同仁的中立给予孩子更多元的客观的角度让孩子能够多元学习而不是给予偏颇的一个概念那我想我们都认同年金改革的出发点是为了让制度更公平财务更永续但是改革不能够只有财务账"},{"start":9769.114,"end":9793.957,"text":"還要顧及人性帳還要教育現場的運作帳我想教育部過去的說明107年的修法目的在於矯正企資的年齡偏低替代率過高甚至基金的準備不足等問題其能兼顧基金穩健跟退休的合理性然而實際情況跟初中完全背道而馳"},{"start":9794.918,"end":9804.171,"text":"教師延後退休整體年齡的結構快速老化心血進不來教育的現場新陳代謝逐漸停滯您認為這個新陳代謝停滯對於整個教育現場有幫助嗎"},{"start":9811.377,"end":9840.619,"text":"跟委員報告其實教育永遠是有進有出應該就是像活水一樣所以這幾年我們也包括在最近我們都在鼓勵地方政府先要釋放出來政治老師的職缺因為少子化影響當然 我們是鼓勵但是教學現場就是停滯教育部統計整個資料的顯示40歲以下的國小教師至100學年度從48000多人降至113學年度"},{"start":9841.44,"end":9860.823,"text":"是26000多人短短11年间减少超过44%反之50岁以上的教师从9455人增加到35487人征服是近三倍也就是说100学年度"},{"start":9861.804,"end":9881.983,"text":"約有一半的教師在40歲以下但到了113學年度僅剩餘27%50歲以上的教師比例則從10%上升到35而且最近我們也看到許多的一些報導3303所公立的國中小"},{"start":9883.464,"end":9902.027,"text":"人缺少了1429位的代理教師我想現在不是用少子化來說我們對於現在的整個制度都非常關注我也要問請問一下教育部我們現在的代理教師的終點費什麼時候要給予應該給予的待遇"},{"start":9902.968,"end":9919.802,"text":"根文報告針對教室的終點會不會因為過去確實調整我知道有調整但是實際就是不夠事實上跟不上所以目前我們已經有在會朝希望能夠拉高那也在考量到不同校內職級的部分做一些規劃"},{"start":9920.623,"end":9940.252,"text":"我希望能够有更具体的刚刚您对于校事会议有一个很具体的回应对不对我们都希望看到这个具体的改善但是对于终点费对于教师 代理教师还有这些老师给予的应该的特殊的加给这些都是我们一直在长期争取的我想另外提到一个问题"},{"start":9940.652,"end":9967.982,"text":"那就是退休金的本質是政府作為雇主依契約與法律給予公教人員工作報酬是勞動所得的一部分而非福利或特權當公教人員依法完成了服務年限後退休給付應受到合理的保障而不是成為政治操作或財務調整的犧牲品我們主張退休停止金是停止整個逐年的遞減"},{"start":9968.942,"end":9992.358,"text":"是作為主要的訴求並非要回到107年以前的舊制而是希望幫忙整個基層的公教人員減少在職與退休公教人員的實質損失恢復制度的合理性跟信任感反映出基層的教育人員對於政府的誠信公平原則的最低期待"},{"start":9993.098,"end":10021.238,"text":"我想另一方面整個退伏基金管理的績效問題是不容忽視的一個課題我們因為全序部現有的資料退伏基金過去20年年化的報酬率僅約2.76%明顯低於多數基金的平均水準我們要請教三個問題第一退伏基金20年的這個報酬率只有2.76這樣的績效全序部"},{"start":10022.27,"end":10027.934,"text":"認為滿意嗎我想現在您所提供的數據跟我的數據有一定的差距但是我看到的是20年的報酬率我們要整個攤提嘛那現在基金報酬率這麼低有沒有檢討過管理問題你覺得很高所以不需要再做任何的檢討 是嗎"},{"start":10053.431,"end":10071.263,"text":"跟委員報告這個2點多我們沒有這個數字因為我們的年平均就是從成立以來也超過5%以上會後我拿我的數據我們再來互相的探討但是我想問你現在所提供的數據你認為已經達到了一個水準還不需要再精進嗎"},{"start":10072.954,"end":10093.686,"text":"當然各種經濟的方式都還是要持續這個當然一定是永遠收益率是沒有一個天花板的我想所有的公教人員都在反映現在的所謂的基金到底是不是所謂的多繳少領大家心中都有一把尺那教育部你認為呢"},{"start":10095.037,"end":10120.836,"text":"虽然退府基金非教育部所掌管但你也是等于这些老师的大家长之一你认为怎么样跟我们报告刚刚其实怀生长真没有提到这近几年的一个基金的净值事实上是增加了快5000亿所以在这个部分我们当然是期待可以更好我想教育是国家的一个根本"},{"start":10121.636,"end":10141.985,"text":"年金改革只看到數字忽略人心跟教育現場的活力就失去了改革的一個初衷那我呼籲政府在檢討制度的時候應該要回到永續公平的一個原點正是教育現場真實的變化兼顧人性專業到信任整個制度的合理"},{"start":10142.785,"end":10160.291,"text":"刚刚你们所提到的一个数据我非常乐于的跟你们在做后续的探讨也希望全区部教育部我们相关的数据以及真实教育界的一个反应我也会持续的一个追踪跟做一个探讨然后也把相关的一些澄清来转交给你们"},{"start":10160.811,"end":10185.56,"text":"另外我想請問一下 親韓生繳不出一萬八罪樓的一個相關事件今天教育部也在現場 想請問一下台中一名大二學生因為家中親韓要辦休學卻被學校收取一萬八的學雜費而因為休學受阻而選擇親生的一個事情我想台灣高等教育的一個場域仍由親韓學生"},{"start":10186.641,"end":10190.793,"text":"因經濟困境面臨休學仍需繳交學雜費的結構性障礙"},{"start":10193.425,"end":10217.17,"text":"社會的個案再次顯現高教在弱勢生的一個輔導跨部門的資訊整合跟緊急協助的一個機制上漏洞我想學校的學務處跟教務處橫向溝通的一個失靈反映校內系統為整合學生的經濟家庭特殊的一個狀況比如當學生有學後學的意願學校有沒有了解為什麼要休學"},{"start":10217.91,"end":10237.219,"text":"然後休學的一個狀況學生的狀況輔導的機制以及任何一個環節能夠及時的留意諮詢輔導轉介經濟救助就可以避免這一起案件的發生那教育部目前對於此類的事件有什麼樣的一個具體作為"},{"start":10238.031,"end":10253.898,"text":"根文報告這件事情真的是很令人遺憾其實只要學校有多問一句我想這個問題都可以解決所以以目前我們對於清函學生來講除了學雜費減免第二層還有總統的我們拉近學雜費方案"},{"start":10254.658,"end":10280.481,"text":"甚至就學貸款這個部分是有三成這樣的一個保障債這個案子比較可惜的就是說在辦休退學的時候就像我已經講的在橫向連結是有瑕疵的這個部分下一步我們已經在禮拜五也再一次通行各個大學校院在一個身份的勾肌若是學生一旦有這個狀況怎麼來處理這個勾肌的處理以及如果有涉及到退費的時候學生有困難"},{"start":10281.101,"end":10308.835,"text":"學校要啟動急濫救助的方式是可以免收或是減收我想這個部分我們都已經有要求大學要落實我希望真正的落實狀況要有追蹤啦不要只是作為一個文字的回應我們希望這樣的事件是發生以後呢要有想辦法具體的一個改革作為希望教育部應該要追蹤以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員那麼接下來請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":10321.991,"end":10327.143,"text":"好謝謝主席有請諸次還有懷次好有請兩位次長委員好"},{"start":10332.405,"end":10360.646,"text":"兩位辛苦年改不走回頭路我想過去大家都說公務人員是鐵飯碗剛剛很多委員也都垂詢到那現在招募不易我想我們如果連現職公務同仁的鐵飯碗都照顧不了沒有辦法保障他們應得的退休生活那如何有更強的競爭力向新的世代來招手呢所以我們要很嚴峻的來面對"},{"start":10361.647,"end":10388.644,"text":"公教退府的樓地板事實上除了是公務現職人員大概八成左右的規模跟收入我們更要來比公教的退府的樓地板事實上是非公教人員的天花板在跨職業別我們不只對年輕世代不公平對非公教人員都需要國家照顧"},{"start":10389.565,"end":10414.372,"text":"的這些國人更是情何以堪所以我們今天我的質詢我們就來看看公平正義在哪裡2018年改上路之後成效看得見世代有保障確實透過我們的改革充實了財政的水位也達到了基金的永續所以都如我們過去的規劃合計到現在挹注了3800多億"},{"start":10417.333,"end":10438.183,"text":"而整個基金的運作永續性也比原本即將用盡來延後了他的基金永續的年限好我不贅述下一頁這是手上我這一厚厚一本是你們第九次的精算報告其實有很多值得關心的委員甚至我建議所有提案的委員都應當細讀"},{"start":10439.964,"end":10461.879,"text":"如果當這些提案的在野黨的委員細讀了這一本精算報告之後我認為他們都會回去重新思考他們提出來的反年改的法案是不是正確的我們這個第九次精算報告兩個結論第一個公務人員的新制財政缺口需要逐年撥補就是我們走在正確的道路上"},{"start":10462.719,"end":10487.624,"text":"第二個制度的變動呢如果有委員要提案修正的話真的需要有完善的財政評估跟配套的裁員而不是說停就停喊咖就喊咖所以我這裡很清楚的數字都來自於這一本諸次你還有幾年退休報委還有13年那你剛好就面臨那一"},{"start":10489.905,"end":10514.436,"text":"可能会用尽的那个年限因为如果喊卡的话教育人员的退府基金可能会在13年后就用完了而公务人员可能会到16年怀次你应该资深一点您应当退休的年限短了一点您还是相对有受到保障的那个时代是吗"},{"start":10516.585,"end":10532.542,"text":"因为我已经做了42年了是但如果说像诸次比诸次更年轻的世代可能在未来不管公或教如果我们年金破产的话谁都领不到就完全不公平不正义下一页"},{"start":10533.843,"end":10552.062,"text":"而我們當時在年改的修法就已經一致的去考量退休金的彈性調整機制就是跟隨著CPI的指數 正負5%還有至少每四年都要英語檢討 對不對那個懷次長 我們有考量所以這五年來的退休金調漲 應當有6%了吧"},{"start":10555.886,"end":10583.633,"text":"這都是為了配合物價來進行定期合理的檢討我們都希望保障退休人員的權益所以在年改的時候我們對於現在委員們在修法的時候說物價調升啊這個飛漲啊通膨啊其實當時在修法我們都一併的考量了更何況任何的物價的波動是所有的世代所有的職業都在面對嘛"},{"start":10584.861,"end":10601.511,"text":"對不對 下一頁所以民間呢 金明聯就出來倡議年金制度不換寡 而是換不均金明聯說 如果公教年改要再修至少要等全國老人都能夠月領八千"},{"start":10602.732,"end":10630.191,"text":"這是最起碼的生活照顧等全國老人都月領至少有八千以上政府再來啟動公教的年改因為我要再次說我們身為中華民國的立法委員我們要照顧的族群不是只有公教的退休人員我們要一併的照顧全職業各種十三類年金制度的所有國人"},{"start":10631.231,"end":10655.967,"text":"這才是我們的責任下一頁這一頁我們就用退休金比一比退休金比退休金喔這個是做出來的教育人員平均退府每個人領五七九七三 五萬七 將近五萬吧公務人員平均可領是五零六五六 就是五萬出頭"},{"start":10658.857,"end":10675.106,"text":"這是公務人員的地板啊但是都遠高於勞保可領的人的天花板我們有勞動部的代表勞保勞退的平均可領的月退縫是25479"},{"start":10678.148,"end":10705.153,"text":"連公教人員的一半都勉強達不到更不要說老農津貼的天花板是81108000塊國民年金不到4000元這就是為什麼金明聯在倡議如果公教要改那讓全國的老人有8000的退休金保障再說這就是退休金比退休金"},{"start":10706.505,"end":10716.112,"text":"下一頁如果跟現職的人員比一比其實有一個核心的命題所謂公教人員的"},{"start":10717.765,"end":10743.547,"text":"基本生活維持的那個線要在哪裡才合理如果以主計總數一口之家二口之家三口之家四口之家都是兩萬五到三萬六之間的支出月領五萬以上的公教退休金絕對很難說他沒有辦法維持基本生活對不對兩位"},{"start":10745.287,"end":10766.567,"text":"更不要說最低生活勞動未還未扶不所列的所以月齡五萬的退休金生活真的很難在台灣的現今社會我當然希望政府能夠保障的更多更好但是如果以主計總數的支出來比較的話我們看下一頁"},{"start":10768.598,"end":10777.167,"text":"又以退休生活跟現役的年輕世代領的跨領域的薪水這一頁來比這是主計總處的資料"},{"start":10780.35,"end":10803.2,"text":"剛剛說的教育人員月領五萬七起跳公教人員退休月領就是五萬起跳換言之教育人員的平均月退的年薪是大概七十萬左右這個七十萬左右的退休縫一年其實遠超過全台各年齡壽星者的一半以上"},{"start":10804.799,"end":10815.133,"text":"這是用退銷金比現役人員跨領域現役服務的壽星階級的比較所以我今天要說的是"},{"start":10816.55,"end":10833.541,"text":"到底一個基本的生活的那個線在哪裡才合理才合理好最後一頁我講到那個投資的那一頁剛剛有委員我再用30秒就好不好意思剛剛有委員說退府基金的投報率只有2%有這個數字嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":10837.654,"end":10858.277,"text":"至少年平均的投報也有5%對不對來次長你再說一次我們大概三年的收益率是8.88那是五年的話是9.36那十年是6.94所以平均average都是5%以上三年 五年 九年以上都是"},{"start":10860.398,"end":10881.283,"text":"8% 9%以上嗎所以我也算了我就是以這一本請委員問證的時候把資料讀清楚我以你們這一本第九次精算報告年改的節省加上投資這十年幾乎是倍翻的翻倍的我甚至剛剛聽您講說現在有一兆一千多億了是嗎我的資料是一兆873億"},{"start":10883.343,"end":10898.036,"text":"換言之我們投報是成長在這十年成長了這個破是成長95%所以我們要把訊息講清楚錯誤的訊息在質詢台上絕對要清楚的導正我們希望"},{"start":10899.417,"end":10921.349,"text":"節約增加政府的撥補然後透過資息債券或者是投資能夠提高他的投報效率讓我們這個母樹這個pool可以更大更保障所有公務同仁而這幾年來95%的這個pool的資金基金的累積這是事實所以如果年改喊卡了"},{"start":10922.95,"end":10948.385,"text":"喊COLOR 錢滾錢喊COLOR 它在複利的時代就是為基金本來可以正向的貢獻更多的投報的成果現在反而大幅的破一天所以今天透過這個質詢我知道週四還有公聽會再一次期許向社會喊話我們對於所有退休人員的照顧保障要一視同仁"},{"start":10949.185,"end":10975.524,"text":"我們不可能只單為某一個族群的退休軍來做更多的挹注然後我們的老農們我們的勞工朋友們真的是最值得我們去關切的一個世代希望所有委員提案的時候我們真的能夠理性討論不可為者絕對不要強行為之辛苦兩位 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10978.886,"end":10981.989,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員那接下來請郭育晴委員發言好 謝謝主席有請懷次 主次好 有請兩位次長"},{"start":11008.025,"end":11028.27,"text":"兩位市長早安我想今天其實我們要探討的這個問題因為教育文化委員會當中其實我們一直不斷的在關心教師的一些權益的問題但是這一次其實我們看到這個我們的退府條例的一個修正的版本大部分都是尤其是當中的37條38條67條"},{"start":11032.651,"end":11056.886,"text":"那我想這是教職人員退休制度當中要維繫整個所有的公平性同時還有基金永續性的一個核心的條款但是我們看到這套的一個設計其實也經過我們整個所有的年輕的改革審慎評估的一個結果這是兼顧了退休教職員的生活的保障跟退伏基金的長期穩健對吧"},{"start":11058.359,"end":11076.298,"text":"好 但是現在我們看到有多位的這個在野黨的委員喔他們也提案要來做修正那雖然是打著說因應這個物價的上漲然後要照顧所謂的這個高齡退休的人員的一個旗號但是實質上的一個內容我們看到的卻是逗退路啦"},{"start":11076.838,"end":11094.204,"text":"真的是改革倒退而且是破壞了制度的平衡的一個風險這是我們必須要考量進去的那我想一直以來我剛剛提到在教育文化委員會當中我們其實不管是在第一線的老師的關心或者是現在大家關注聚焦在所謂的教師會議對老師的衝擊"},{"start":11095.965,"end":11120.765,"text":"甚至在許多的資源充足的六都當中我們老師是招不滿的一招再招甚至帶領教師的部分這都是一個非常重要的一個警訊我想連現職就像剛剛吳志耀委員提到的連現職的教師我們的權益都沒有辦法給予他們充分不管是精神上的保障或者實質上的一個保障我們現在要來"},{"start":11122.423,"end":11139.617,"text":"照顧所謂的高齡退休人員那當然我們必須說我們當然願意提供這樣子的一個照顧但是我們也要審核我們自己本身的財政的一個負擔是不是也會引起其他族群的不滿這個其實是我們要去傾聽更多的一個民意啦"},{"start":11140.097,"end":11155.637,"text":"那我想呢如果在整個所有的財政的壓力跟勞工的對比之下甚至還有其他的一些族群會引發所謂的勞工看不下去我們的財政也吃不消這種兩種雙重的一個窘境雙重的一個問題我想呢"},{"start":11158.34,"end":11171.213,"text":"就算所謂的這個教職人員他是屬於軍公教的一個體系那相對來講他的福利他的穩定或者他完善的一個退休機制其實也是比較其他的族群要來得更加的優渥"},{"start":11172.369,"end":11194.08,"text":"但是這在社會的觀感上面我們不忍不防也會擔心到所謂的人家會質疑這越照顧越不平衡會有這樣子的問題產生所以其實如果要把教育體系單獨拿來修法那會不會引起因為過去我們知道軍公教其實是一體的喔"},{"start":11195.06,"end":11219.912,"text":"那其他的如果軍工是不是也要同步的調整但是如果軍工也同步的調整這整個所有的制度的公平性會不會遭到質疑那在這裡我想請教一下我們的這個懷刺的部分那我想這一次我們看到他們修法的內容是要排除113年後逐年下降的所得替代率的一個規定"},{"start":11221.673,"end":11237.359,"text":"但這個有沒有可能會讓我們的退幅基金財務壓力瞬間變大我們的退幅基金會不會入不敷出這個部分有沒有評估過請教一下 白癡如果照目前這樣的提案修法的話"},{"start":11238.299,"end":11265.061,"text":"會讓原來像教育人員部分他會提前到129年就會那個基金就會用慶接下來就是說因為我們停止調降那停止調降因為這次還包括公務人員部分那每一年可以節省下來的退伍就回憶到我們退伍基金的經費如果到118年那我們大概會減少大概2700多億的部分進入到我們的基金大概會有這樣的一個情形"},{"start":11265.461,"end":11285.311,"text":"好那另外呢就是也有委員提案說這個退休金啊要隨在職人員的本薪調整來重新計算那我想這個制度會不會也導致照這樣子的版本來講如果這樣子的一個制度真的先行下去的話我們的年輕負擔會不會快速的惡化"},{"start":11286.636,"end":11309.202,"text":"因為我們限職人員他是在工作所以他調薪的思考的因子是跟退休的部分是不一樣所以我們在現在的設計上面是CPI上下5%就進行調整或者就算沒有這樣的部分的話大概每四年也要進行一次的檢討調整過去我們大概已經有調整過兩次分別是2%跟4%加起來是6%"},{"start":11311.075,"end":11338.695,"text":"但現在他們提案要調降喔調降到3%上下3%甚至到2%他們就要來調整這個會不會讓我們的這個基金的財務不確定性更增加這個會 那我也跟委員報告一下因為我們這個不管是目前我們現狀第一層年金跟第二層年金包括國民年金 那個勞保等等都是用正負5%來做調整那如果說我們單獨的公教部分"},{"start":11339.235,"end":11367.157,"text":"把它減少的話 恐怕這個要省省來思考好 第四點我要質疑 我要請教一下這個諸次囉有委員甚至提案說要刪除直接刪除六十七條直接刪除六十七條或者是取消超過百分之五必須經過立法院同意的這樣子的一個程序實質上讓行政部門單方面來決定這個支出的增加這會不會削弱我們國會監督的一個權限我想請教一下我們諸次你怎麼看 你贊成嗎"},{"start":11369.388,"end":11384.91,"text":"我想因為陳土剛剛委員提到的有關於整個退府的一個調整他事實上可能還有涉及到其他不同職類的人員所以如果有國會適當的監督我想這是也是應該是必要的"},{"start":11385.33,"end":11387.771,"text":"好 我們再次強調我們樂於這個討論如何讓退休的教職員在物價上漲的一個壓力之下獲得合理的一個保障這我們樂見看見但是要維持制度的一個穩定跟基金的永續這才是我們的社會共識"},{"start":11401.357,"end":11420.851,"text":"那另外呢其實我可以建議就是我們行政院跟權序部是不是整個可以盤點整個軍公教的這個退府機制讓所有的有系統的一個調整而不是個別來做修補會搗亂我們的整個財政永續的這樣子的一個障礙跟困難好以上謝謝兩位好謝謝委員謝謝主席是謝謝郭委員好那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":11428.578,"end":11446.19,"text":"好 對 我們先處理會議時間那上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止好 請開始好 謝謝主席請教育部次長好 請朱次長我也請我們的權敘部次長好 請懷次長"},{"start":11452.389,"end":11471.58,"text":"我先請教教育部就是這兩天大家非常關心的就是在一個清涵大學生他辦休學之後因為一萬八千塊錢的學雜費他選擇了輕生剛才也有委員來請教育次長但是我看次長所講的話"},{"start":11473.26,"end":11491.808,"text":"比如說如果學校多問一句恐怕就不會發生或者說這個橫向聯繫有疏失感覺我們教育部看待這件事情千錯萬錯好像都是第一線校務人員的錯但是在制度面"},{"start":11492.708,"end":11517.847,"text":"如果碰到這樣的一個清寒的學生不管他是需要救助也好或者是他因此而要辦理休學也好除了在我們第一線比如說這件事是學務處跟教務處橫向聯繫確實失靈但是在制度上我們教育部可以做任何的補強嗎"},{"start":11519.409,"end":11546.184,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒其實我們現在也有在思考上次趙偉有跟我們指導就是說在他從高中升大學的時候因為我們對於中低收青函學生都有一些學長費的減免如果是過去在高中有被介入或是一些處遇性的學生我們也有相關的一個資料我想這個部分我們應該更主動的而不是只有仰賴學校的一個橫向連結所以這一塊我們會來加強"},{"start":11548.741,"end":11572.668,"text":"對 除了這個橫向聯繫就是學校的第一線的部分要加強之外其實包含剛剛講的他從高中升大學他是不是仍然具有這樣期函學生的一個身份或者是其實我們不管是這個大學公私立大學其實都有很多相關的救助而且應該讓所有的學生所有的學生都了解"},{"start":11573.188,"end":11591.922,"text":"都了解說事實上當他覺得他走上一個絕路的時候其實只要他願意提出是可以得到有人伸出援手的所以我覺得這一點就是說可能很多學生他的一個資訊的落差跟封閉所以我才說在制度上我們怎麼樣讓校園的捕獲網不要每一次在檢討的時候就會變成只是推向第一線的學校他們處理不當"},{"start":11603.05,"end":11607.152,"text":"所以我覺得以後不要再發生這樣的事情請教育部能夠有一套比較清楚的這樣的一個制度另外我想剛才也有很多的委員去詢問到我們這一次的對於退休教師不管是他的退休金應該按照消費者物價指數聯動"},{"start":11629.685,"end":11645.05,"text":"現在可以看到各個委員可能他有2%、3%、5%各個不同的版本但是他的出發點動機都是基於對於這些退休的教師們在整個物價上漲的過程裡面能夠讓他確保他的生活"},{"start":11650.572,"end":11656.557,"text":"那另外大家都提到其實每一次從年改開始啊就在講說哎呀這會讓我們退府基金破產啊這是讓我們的這個政府財政更加惡化其實我聽到這些話我都覺得這是政府的推脫之詞為什麼"},{"start":11669.207,"end":11692.876,"text":"我們已經講過 比如說台電 台電現在的虧損不就是錯誤的能源政策嗎那只要你改變這個政策 台電就不需要一年虧兩千億 三千億啊我們整個這次的年改下來一億住到退府基金 這麼多年來退府一住多少 也不過兩千多億啊你台電一年就會虧到兩千億以上耶"},{"start":11693.436,"end":11717.622,"text":"一年就要虧到2000以上另外 剛才我就在我們的隔壁國防外交委員會 質詢什麼呢我們國界國照海昆號一個海昆號 花將近500億新台幣500億 到現在仍然沒有辦法交件可是同一時間 日本的這個蒼金號下水"},{"start":11719.903,"end":11737.738,"text":"148億不到150億所以我說我們幹嘛這樣子浪費納稅人的錢我們直接跟日本買好了又可以下水而且呢這個它的造價遠遠低於我們的造價我說算一算你要造7艘可以節省將近1800億"},{"start":11740.12,"end":11768.779,"text":"可以節省一千八百億然後我們這樣一直搞一直搞一直搞花這麼多的錢還不能刪喔不要說不能刪還不能動喔所以我覺得這一點呢事實上我覺得不要再每一次用這種方式用這種方式好像一副你對於這些退休教室或退休公教人員好像他們就是拖垮政府財政你怎麼不去檢討這些我剛才以上所述的另外一個喔市長有一個很重要剛才特別提到為什麼對不起市長 下一步市長"},{"start":11770.3,"end":11786.514,"text":"很重要為什麼大家提到要讓消費者物價指數去連動退休的教師我現在講現役的教師現役的教師我們每一年消費者物價指數要漲多少"},{"start":11787.475,"end":11807.218,"text":"我們的導師費我們的高中以下的導師費已經連續動漲13年之久啊所以為什麼大家不想當導師當導師其實責任很重大我不用再贅述了最近的教師荒"},{"start":11808.559,"end":11837.333,"text":"其實就已經非常明顯年輕人也不想投入就算拿到教師證他也不要再去徵事了好那所以如果說我們其實我們照顧退休老師我們也應該去看現在的第一線的老師他碰到什麼樣問題導師費動漲13年所以我想請問一下教育部這是很多我們的教師團體爭取教育部有沒有要"},{"start":11837.933,"end":11863.663,"text":"準備研議改善是 謝謝委員的指導我想不僅是只有導師費包含幾位委員在關心終點費的問題目前教育部我們都已經有在評估了而且我們方向上是希望能夠爭取到支持把它調高那這塊我們現在也在收集意見跟考量校內不同職級的部分我想這塊是教育部教育部要期期 我告訴你"},{"start":11866.604,"end":11884.873,"text":"明年教育部的預算是不是少很多是不是少很多我們都說窮不能窮孩子窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子結果教育部因為國防的經費大幅的提高結果你們教育部相對的你看國教署就少了138億"},{"start":11886.374,"end":11914.411,"text":"所以我要講的是我們其實應該花更多的資源在教育上而像我剛才說的你說終點費也是一樣導師費也是一樣現在真的像代理老師有很多代理老師現在嚴重缺乏願意代理一定現在可能代理十年以上啦然後代理老師還要去當導師對不對那薪水就已經很微薄然後導師費一個月只有三千塊所以"},{"start":11916.312,"end":11943.813,"text":"我希望能夠你有一個期程你明年是不可能增加是嗎你現在還要等一年 一年多我們其實經費的部分會減少其實不是我們使者減少而是因為財發法的一些分配問題但是如果說我們一旦決定要能夠調高導資費跟終點費的話我想教一步我們自己內部也會盡量沒有 所以次長你認為應不應該調高"},{"start":11948.835,"end":11955,"text":"如果以我個人來講我身為三個小孩子的爸爸當然希望導師人這麼辛苦我是希望能夠盡量幫他們爭取"},{"start":11956.488,"end":11978.528,"text":"對嘛我覺得如果大家大家都覺得應該要調了實在是時間那麼久不調不合理的時候我覺得應該做就要做該花的錢這個是我們該花的錢好嗎我們會積極來爭取好不好我還是很希望說即便明年的預算沒有但是我們想什麼樣的方法"},{"start":11980.969,"end":11991.974,"text":"來讓這些第一線的導師能夠他們得到合理的一個酬勞好不好好謝謝委員知道好謝謝王委員那接下來請范雲委員質詢朱次長好有請朱次長"},{"start":12008.01,"end":12029.058,"text":"主持長剛剛王委員問到教育部減少的經費您應該要說清楚是因為財化法地方增加了很多錢教育原本就我們教育法規是地方事務過去是不足的部分中央補助那些少的部分以後教育部要講清楚是地方增加這麼多的經費"},{"start":12030.038,"end":12053.783,"text":"那應該該地方出的就是地方出好不好不要就是說變成魚目混珠說是國防預算排擠了教育經費不是 是因為真的是財化法的關係那我今天想問的一個題目是跟今天這個就是退休金有關的那我訴求就是不要讓追溯期的限制阻礙學生時期遭性侵者追尋正義"},{"start":12055.323,"end":12083.635,"text":"要先跟大家讲一个故事2022年我跟赖品瑜跟人本基金会开记者会因为当时我们发现有一位狼师他在学校50岁就退休了他在退休前曾经在台中台南很多所国小教书侵害多名学生情节重大到我讲一个最轻的其中最轻的情节是午休的时间下令同学都脸朝下趴着睡"},{"start":12084.335,"end":12098.219,"text":"在以健康教育為由摸女學生的胸部甚至整個伸到衣服裡面摸其他的情節有興趣看的可以自己看我的PPT更嚴重的情節還有是多個學生受害後來"},{"start":12100.826,"end":12120.983,"text":"受害者成年之后出面指控找到人本基金会跟我们然后学校性评会在调查之后确定性侵害成立决议终身解聘那问题是我想次长你应该知道这个郎师因为他已经退休这个处分"},{"start":12122.256,"end":12135.471,"text":"居然沒有辦法有任何的影響他每個月也可以繼續爽領退休金各位朱次長您覺得這樣子對當年的受害的學生後來勇敢站出來之後這樣子是有公道的嗎"},{"start":12136.668,"end":12159.695,"text":"根本報告據我了解目前在退伍條例八十條裡面針對於如果經過我們校園性平會調查涉及到性侵害解聘的部分應該是會致死去追回他的退休金所以您認為應該受性平會解聘的應該要收回退休金"},{"start":12160.935,"end":12175.047,"text":"那是針對現值那如果已經退休的呢像這個案例退休的我們也是追回啊現在1到80條應該4到追回所以市長你也認同追回退休了也要追回"},{"start":12176.168,"end":12200.469,"text":"那好那現在我就告訴你我們現在的法規有個部分跟您講的不一樣如果是在職教師一教師法14條被解聘的話就失去教師資格立刻取消退休金如果是退休教師只有在就是沒有超過追溯期的時候司法判刑確定才能夠就是第80條沒錯剝奪並取消退休金"},{"start":12204.472,"end":12224.21,"text":"今天像我剛講那個案例因為他已經過了刑法追溯期雖然學校的調查成立而且也把他象徵性的解聘可是他還是爽領退休金所以朱次長你非常認同我的講法那是不是我請教育部研議一下"},{"start":12225.211,"end":12252.862,"text":"那既然有人要修這個就是關於退休金的是不是也能夠在這個機會中就是研議一下第80條在判處有歧途性以上之行確定者把這個空間留下來對於就是已經超過追溯期沒有辦法就是在法律上得到一個公道可是學校的行政判斷然後地方局處都認定應該要就是還是"},{"start":12254.402,"end":12276.77,"text":"取消他的教師資格者那是不是能夠有真正的處罰他取消他的退休金呢是 謝謝委員的建議我想因為目前針對校園性平事件的處理學校不管在學校或教育部我們都有一個很嚴謹的過程所以說雖然他不屬於那個形式的確認判決"},{"start":12278.371,"end":12299.504,"text":"但是因為他也是經過相當嚴謹過程我們應該可以來演繹針對這已經過了刑事的輸送期但是確實有就是行政調查確定我們是不是可以來啟動而且就已經取消他的教職員資格那也應該要處罰好嗎那這就是第80條規定的那是請多久之內可以給我一個報告呢"},{"start":12303.402,"end":12323.736,"text":"是不是委員我們有三個月時間我們來收集資料研擬然後提出比較完整的可不可以加速兩個月好嗎兩個月好兩個月好那我們等您喔我們來就算是沒有趕上這一波這一條我們單獨我相信教文委員都會支持可以修好不好我們來努力是好好謝謝好謝謝范委員謝謝委員接下來我們請林倩琴委員發言"},{"start":12341.345,"end":12369.017,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們翁朝偉我先請我們全序部是不是我們懷次長我要請懷次長文豪好 次長您好本席今天要針對這個還是公教的這個退府條例來做一些請教那針對這個退休職員的基本生活保障本席這邊提出一個重點就是說政府是不是能夠及時因應"},{"start":12370.557,"end":12389.968,"text":"這個概念很重要今天大家對於公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例修正有迫切的期待其中一個很重要的原因就是要建立物價聯動及時調整退休金的制度這不僅是技術性質的一個修法也是制度正義的一個落實"},{"start":12391.128,"end":12407.458,"text":"近年來物價上漲的壓力大家都可以感受得到今年基本工資調漲就已經超過了4%現值的軍公教人員調薪4%國民年金也調整了7.34%對退休的公教人員而言"},{"start":12407.938,"end":12422.314,"text":"通膨的每一個百分比都在削弱整個實質生活的能力那麼對靠固定收入生活的退休老師而言這不是只有抽象的數字而是每一餐的米價跟每一罐藥的開銷"},{"start":12423.735,"end":12452.119,"text":"所以政府在去年初曾經表示退休縫調整是於法有據甚至在預算中也編列了44億元但是還沒有實施沒有執行那導致退休人員與現職之間的差距越來越大信任也隨之流失那部長 對不起 次長本席在這邊強調退休金的調整不是福利的擴張而是大家對制度信賴的一個維持"},{"start":12453.42,"end":12466.456,"text":"當現職人員的薪資隨物價或經濟情勢調整退休人員也一再停滯這樣的制度設計顯然不僅是有失公平而且還欠缺完整"},{"start":12467.937,"end":12487.468,"text":"當然大家有很多不同的計算跟比較的方式本席在這邊也要提醒每一項的退休的設計不能平行的跟不同類別的職業來做比較因為信賴保障原則是在大家簽訂契約的同時就已經存在"},{"start":12489.53,"end":12501.104,"text":"所以在中央發布的消費者物價指數累計成長率達正或負5%時規定政府應該於一定期間啟動調整"},{"start":12503.246,"end":12522.285,"text":"本席這邊提出來一個概念就是本席認為三個月就應該很恰當的來做一個處理因為剛才本席講的重點是有沒有辦法及時因應所以這邊請教次長您第一個部分是過去兩年退休縫的調整評估會議開了幾次具體的結論更為何"},{"start":12526.169,"end":12553.729,"text":"第二個部分是那麼目前掌握的CPI累計成長率已經超過了調整的門檻政府是不是可以先依既有的權限來啟動暫行的機制保障退休人員的生活第三個部分是權序部是不是應該主動與主計處考試院之間的協調管道是不是有更明確還有更積極那麼未來可不可以建立立即即時調整的一個制度"},{"start":12554.849,"end":12562.013,"text":"是不是請次長這邊簡短的跟精準的回應本席剛才所講的問題那簡單來講就是說過去我們曾經分別調過2%跟4%合計調整過6%"},{"start":12570.777,"end":12585.093,"text":"但是這個調整它是需要一點時間因為三個月這個我跟委員報告因為每個調整都是涉及到那個預算經費的問題那你如果在預算年度中的話除非說有一個法條譬如說它可以"},{"start":12585.894,"end":12612.169,"text":"從什麼經費裡面挪起來不然的話每一年預算編列下來我們都要反映在下一個年度因為這年度的預算是沒有這個預算它依照我們預算法或相關規定它就是不能再執行好的 謝謝次長這邊也提出來這樣一個問題所以本席講的這個概念你們也可以列入一下考量也就是即時因應這樣一個概念那如果您覺得三個月有點窘迫那你們覺得應該是什麼樣子大概多少的時間依據這幾年你們調整的跟"},{"start":12615.091,"end":12634.428,"text":"沒有辦法因應的部分你們再去做一個計算那我想在未來也可以就這個部分即時的因應好不好我想這是目前比較關鍵大家感覺很窘迫的一個問題那麼是不是也可以請你們說明那剛才本席有幾個問題你如果來不及回答的是不是可以書面給本席一個回應那包括您剛才講的2% 4%那這個總數呢有沒有"},{"start":12638.652,"end":12655.063,"text":"跟我們現在整個的這個物價的指數你覺得在平行的部分是不是有達到解決大家問題的一個因應那可不可以請你明確說明你是不是支持整個修法納入限職人員的一個聯動條款那第二個部分"},{"start":12655.683,"end":12679.397,"text":"如果沒有修法 那現行體制下能不能就剛才本席所建議的三個月來做相關的啟動程序或者是你們能不能先做一些規劃就未來您所講的這個情況如果有發生那你們可以怎麼因應好 第三個部分是那麼未來是不是願意建立明確的檢討時程跟公開透明的評估機制那這個部分是不是請次長也是簡短的回應"},{"start":12680.477,"end":12706.603,"text":"我簡單報告一下第一個跟限職人員調整的部分我們是比較不建議不建議的理由是說因為限職人員調整它有很多複雜因素我們退休人員這部分的調整在現行機制下就是用CPI跟民事聯監討一次另外一個情況是說限職人員待遇跟退休人員待遇本來他們跟退休人員的幾戶它是兩個不同的思考如果你跟限職人員待遇勾在一起的話"},{"start":12707.923,"end":12735.299,"text":"那就會鼓勵人家找退人家會覺得說我如果縣市裡面跟退休人大約是很接近那我為什麼這麼辛苦要來上班這都需要在我們HR上面我都建議要比較市長您剛才講的這兩套系統那你是不是給本席比較細節性的一個相關的資料本席所這邊講的就是即時因應的這個三個月是不是請你們也列入思考這樣可以解決比較即時性的一個問題"},{"start":12735.799,"end":12754.37,"text":"委員我們會後再書面給您做比較細的那個說明好的 謝謝好 謝謝委員 指導 謝謝那我可不可以很快的請教一下這個教育部就是也很快請教然後及時一個提醒那麼次長您好謝謝最近在這個那個次長 懷次長您可以請坐好 謝謝"},{"start":12756.38,"end":12765.465,"text":"近期在國立台灣戲曲學院因為姓平的案件有一些處理的延宕結果教育部這邊必須有一些因應因為你們凍結了相關的補助所以他們對一些主管的懲戒"},{"start":12772.888,"end":12787.236,"text":"但是大家都有點普遍質疑為什麼始終不作為都要教育部直接介入他們才會有一些動作目前我們在看待這個問題本席這邊提出來不曉得您教育部觀察的一個看法"},{"start":12787.896,"end":12814.757,"text":"就是說目前校長公開遴選看似大學自主但是常常大家都為了連任而又有一些不好處理的這個事項那這樣一個制度不曉得你們有沒有觀察到是不是這樣一個原因的影響而導致這種個案的一個出現那本席這邊做一個提醒那是不是這一次戲曲學院也可能是一個整體的縮影那之前其實你們可能也提出了一些"},{"start":12816.218,"end":12835.556,"text":"一些建議但是一直到你們出手以後那才有這樣子的解決所以這個不作為的結果不是只有個案上的一個帶墮那對整個學校的這個性平啊或者是師生的這個權益可能都有一點影響所以本期要請教的是那你們要不要全面檢討校長的任期"},{"start":12836.698,"end":12851.736,"text":"那本席這邊有一個建議啦你們可能了解以後然後再試試看就是說六年的擔任制那不得續任有沒有可能這樣子看法您可以研究一下然後給本席一個相關的這個報告嗎"},{"start":12853.318,"end":12876.24,"text":"這樣最主要是希望不要為了要連任然後有很多這些沒有辦法處理的那或者是如果要連任那還是這個過程當中他所做的事情是不是有某一些可能的積分等等當然有一些學校的自主啦那教育部這個部分是不是可以也做一些調整或者做一些KPI的一個設計那您的看法是"},{"start":12878.162,"end":12895.357,"text":"我們會後可以給評估報告給委員這邊做參考那確實以這個案子來講校長據我了解校長是還蠻積極的想去處理這件事情可是因為整個教評會它是個合議制所以校長在事例上那是比較辛苦"},{"start":12895.937,"end":12924.268,"text":"但是教育部我們因為已經有祭出我們凍結的一個這樣的政策工具之後這個案子最後確實有完成依照性平法該有的處分跟懲處我想這塊委員的建議我們也會評估給委員參考本席是從這個個案看到一個整體的這個問題那可以你們就這整體的一個概念是不是做相關的一個討論跟研究然後會後給本席一個相關的報告那三個月可以嗎"},{"start":12924.628,"end":12931.45,"text":"麻煩三個月之內提供報告給林委員好謝謝那麼接下來我們請黃金斌委員發言謝謝有請這個教育部諸長次然後群聚部兩位次長還有我們任總委員好"},{"start":12958.884,"end":12973.602,"text":"三位早安我想公教人員是這個國家重要的根基一輩子都為國家跟現在大家付出因此我想照顧他們的晚年我想不但是國家跟政府的承諾更是義務 三位認不認同"},{"start":12975.072,"end":13000.251,"text":"認同好 謝謝不過我想民進黨政府一上台之後他就翻臉不認人大砍公教年金所得替代率逐年減少1.5%這對公教年金他是極大的不尊重更是違背我們國家政府的這個承諾尤其在現在物價年年飆漲的年代這對於退休年來講這影響非常大甚至影響在晚年的時候會危及他的基本的生活"},{"start":13000.831,"end":13019.091,"text":"那今天司法法治委員會安排這項會議審查我們公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例的修法草案本席認為這是一個很重要的開始那停砍公教人員退休的這個所在地守護他們的權利跟晚年的生活這是慈愛的正義那我想也是這個國家必須要還給他們的公道"},{"start":13019.631,"end":13035.02,"text":"那本席還有其他國民黨的這些很多委員都提出這個修法的版本我們希望之後的逐條討論的時候能夠並案一起來審查我們也希望不分黨派的委員都能夠理性的來討論那本席也強調公教人員穩定的退休制度絕對他不是不是特權"},{"start":13035.86,"end":13055.605,"text":"而是這個國家跟公教人員定下的契約精神本席再次強調 那是契約精神那也希望教育部跟全區部務必要跟我們公教人員站在一起那 而不是跟執政黨在一起一定要全力來守護我們公教人員應有的權益那接下來我想要針對我們偏鄉的問題來跟我們任總這邊來進行討論我們請任總委員好"},{"start":13061.024,"end":13079.892,"text":"正好那個根據媒體報導我們這幾年那個公教人員的報考率逐漸下降可是離職率越來越高這代表什麼代表越來越少人願意留在我們的公教的職場那在偏鄉更是嚴重像台東的公教人員短缺跟流動的頻率都很高像"},{"start":13080.692,"end":13105.583,"text":"像那個情車台東整個服務員廣大那交通啊生活機能都不比西部跟北部造成很多公務人員公教人員都一樣就一定年資服務一滿之後他就會選擇離開台東縣變成一個新兵訓練中心一直在換人一直在換人那本市在立法院也多次的爭取這個一定要提升我們台東地區公教人員的家籍目前台東的東台家籍每個月是多少錢600"},{"start":13111.462,"end":13124.16,"text":"630 630從民國79年到現在都沒有調過各位清楚這30年的物價變化多大六百三以台東縣的整個服務員廣大的情況來講630塊他連一個月的油錢他都可能沒有辦法負擔"},{"start":13125.442,"end":13154.822,"text":"那我想這個真的是要很好要請好好思考一下東部的特殊性那我們行政院目前有推這個各級機關學校公教人員工作地域加級合理化調整方案本席在主張是說這個部分中央一定要挹注更多的資源我們研議我們怎麼樣讓來台東這些服務的不管是工人員或老師他願意留下來而且優先喔這個事情是從本島就從台東優先來做起"},{"start":13155.442,"end":13171.751,"text":"因為我相信全台灣很多地方跟台東一樣那台東是更明顯的因為其實坦白說我們自己本席從台東上來的不管是距離啦交通方式啦跟離島其實沒什麼兩樣所以這部分要請任總這邊來協助那這邊是不是可以來研議一下"},{"start":13173.633,"end":13182.082,"text":"委員 其實我們任市長對台東很關注他去台東很多次 我都跟他翻臉過他對台東是很關心的東台家族是比較早一點的規範現在是稍後第一家族來做處理所以委員是很內行的"},{"start":13197.358,"end":13215.037,"text":"就是他已經挪到第一家族在做處理那第一家族我們也做合宜化方案讓地方可以彈性一點看他能不能把它做大一點做彈性一點然後讓這個偏鄉 偏洋其實台東"},{"start":13217.059,"end":13232.775,"text":"是我們面對太平洋的前端不是後方我們是很努力的在做一塊做這一塊不只是在台東的縣政府相公所的公務同仁我們部會在台東其實"},{"start":13234.176,"end":13256.506,"text":"也有一些同仁在那邊 也都受委員的照顧這個我們都會一起去做考量副市長你也知道說以台東縣政府的財政情況並不是這麼聰明很多東西真的都需要中央幫忙我們可以幫的部分我們就一起來努力啦謝謝 那是不是請副市長這個在一週內將提報研議的方式給本席辦公室 好不好我會趕不來"},{"start":13259.168,"end":13261.93,"text":"謝謝副省長也謝謝三位謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝黃委員那就一個月之內提供報告給黃委員參考那接下來請武力華委員發言"},{"start":13287.163,"end":13306.659,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部 朱次長還有權敘部 鄭淑芬 退福斯司長還有行政院主計總署的基金預算處 謝謝好 麻煩請列席官員上台 謝謝"},{"start":13309.093,"end":13328.256,"text":"好 三位長官好本席其實一直以來都有在關心關於教職員或公務人員的一些權益多年來來到立法院也經常遇到一些單位團體會來辦公室跟我們討論"},{"start":13329.637,"end":13354.093,"text":"那我自己曾經在上一屆就是112年的時候有參與過公務人員退休子序撫恤辦法第39條以及公立學校教職員退休資金撫恤條例第98條的修法那總統呢也公告了那之後就是說要一退撫基金財務精算的結果來分年編列預算來撥補"},{"start":13355.854,"end":13378.989,"text":"但是上路以來其實像以全教總來講他們其實是感到還蠻失望的所以我也有就這個部分來找三個部會一起的討論那我其實還是要講因為這個退府新制上路之後它最大的差別就是它現在不進入大水庫它是屬於個人專庫制"},{"start":13379.99,"end":13408.544,"text":"所以呢這個基金撥補更顯得重要那大家的擔憂也是說之前已經有年改的經驗說會破產那如果不按照這樣子做那未來是不是還會面臨二次年改這樣的一個可能性所以其實我們的第一線的公務人員也好或公教人其實他們都非常的擔憂那我在這裡呢就是想要問一下因為如果說要依法來做"},{"start":13409.304,"end":13438.345,"text":"退府基金委員會的第八次精算報告他是這麼寫的他是說每年至少撥補194億元要20年那權序部這邊是更細就是提到說分10年會怎麼樣分15年會怎麼樣分20年怎麼樣所以看起來最優最省最好的方案是分10年撥補因為可以減少"},{"start":13439.125,"end":13452.277,"text":"少花710億元那教育部的部分我倒是沒有看到但是我想先請教一下就是教育部 權序部就是這個部分114年就是撥補的狀況"},{"start":13455.035,"end":13468.792,"text":"根本報告因為根據精算確實我們需要如果是分10年是1360那如果是分20年是1660那我們現在今年的部分我們是有編的74億明年會有92億以後92億來投入撥補"},{"start":13473.226,"end":13488.828,"text":"那請問一下92億是分幾年我們目前是以其實部裡面我們是希望爭取用10年但是目前是以20年的方式所以是用20年那請教一下那個全序部"},{"start":13490.605,"end":13515.562,"text":"這個部分因為新制上路以後我們部裡面是一直希望都是爭取用10年的撥補歷年都是用10年的撥補方案去編列概算但是因為國家有它政策支出的決定所以目前也是跟教育部一樣在今年經過核列的額度是用20年的方式來編是核定為120億"},{"start":13517.043,"end":13525.535,"text":"好 那聽起來就是教育部 權序部都是希望用十年好 那請教一下那個主總"},{"start":13531.149,"end":13552.036,"text":"因為最後也是就是整個財政最後盤點的結果那就是因為這個就是我們持續撥補那但是考量到E5的整個支付的狀況還是採用20年部分就是所以意思就是說合計的話是如果用20年"},{"start":13554.272,"end":13560.876,"text":"所以20年這個狀況是在明年會發生嗎20年撥補是明年的狀況嗎後年呢那我剛才聽到的是說因為財政的問題我們財政有問題"},{"start":13571.282,"end":13583.957,"text":"因為最後15整個盤點最後的稅入稅出的結果部分那這部分我們先用20年的基礎來做談題那明年就是每一年的那個財政收支會不一樣那可能還是可以再做滾動的"},{"start":13585.219,"end":13610.484,"text":"那我再請教一下因為我們修法之後他是寫說因一退府基金財務精算結果接續分年編列預算撥補現行的退府基金是嗎我們修法是這麼寫的條文是這麼寫的所以現在是因為退府基金委員會的精算報告是說因每年至少撥補194億元達20年是按照這個嗎"},{"start":13618.492,"end":13647.61,"text":"這部分還是有分三種那我最後還是用20年的部分先來那請教一下後年呢這可能還要看明年籌編總預算的時候再一起考慮所以我們其實沒有辦法因為修法之後有一個固定的數字有一個固定的做法是這樣嗎修法的部分可能如果說法是明定的話那當然是依法"},{"start":13648.314,"end":13651.537,"text":"那現在怎麼辦 那我們未來到底該怎麼做好 那沒有關係 因為時間的關係我只是說 我們希望能夠按照精算的一個數額來撥補因為好不容易就修法啦 總統也公告啦"},{"start":13676.619,"end":13685.57,"text":"那這個部分我是希望說這個部分因為我們有看到114年編列194億就是公教的部分120億教師的部分74億那就是採20年的撥補所以我們希望說這個撥補數遠遠的不足"},{"start":13695.862,"end":13713.593,"text":"那我們也希望說為了要防度未來就是因為這樣修法那就是為了要防度破產的可能避免二次年改我們還是要求說希望我們的主總能夠正視這個問題那也能夠提出一個報告可以嗎至少讓我們了解你們未來的做法"},{"start":13723.154,"end":13743.181,"text":"好那我回到今天排審的主席再給我一分鐘那因為我們最重要的修法重點就是要按限職人員的待遇希望能夠調升提高然後也希望按物價指數來調整所以我想要請教一下就是教育部還有組總就是對於基金的財務狀況會有沒有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":13748.693,"end":13766.151,"text":"確實如果說要做調整他必須還是會考慮到整個基金的一個財務的問題還有跟現值人員的差異的問題以及他是不是有一個保障合理性的問題所以這三個部分都要一併做考量"},{"start":13766.431,"end":13789.353,"text":"因為其實如果按照這兩個訴求像加薪3%嘛然後按著物價指數調整都是很正常的啦那重點是小小的調整大家會大大的有感啦所以我是想說就這個部分可不可以提供一個影響評估的一個書面報告就是主總跟教育部還有那個主總跟教育部可以嗎"},{"start":13791.115,"end":13810.907,"text":"是 委員是針對兩個部分對 針對修法的重點可以嗎至少我們要知道他的一個影響評估報告可以好 謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝吳委員接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":13823.884,"end":13851.459,"text":"主席有請我們教育部還有前系部還有人事行政總署委員好大家辛苦了這個今天談這個公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例這個我們必須去回顧這個剛才有民進黨的立委特別提到"},{"start":13853.67,"end":13877.588,"text":"這個馬英九總統過去也提過年金改革年金改革的方向或是怎麼樣去改革其實是有很多種面向我們就並不是說因為他講過所以現在的現在的法律是他支持的不是這樣我們來看"},{"start":13879.998,"end":13908.904,"text":"當初蔡英文上任之後成立了國家年金改革委員會邀請了各專家學者包括我們行政機關各機關的專業人員各院各部會都有開了20次會議20次不是小數字開了20次會議當時的行政院跟考試院"},{"start":13910.185,"end":13934.23,"text":"根據陳副總統召開主持的國家年金改革委員會20次的會議我再強調一次20次的會議然後你們提出了當時的行政院跟考試院提出了公務人員退休撫恤法的草案在106年3月30號但是呢"},{"start":13940.814,"end":13968.773,"text":"很遺憾的當時的立法院因為民進黨絕對多數竟然是依段宜康委員的等委員民進黨的委員的提案來通過是依民進黨的立委我是在現場段委員有怎麼了解這些嗎當然不是就大砍就對了"},{"start":13971.38,"end":13989.68,"text":"国家年金改革委员会20次的会议然后行政院考试院送来的草案是小砍那后来是大砍就这么简单所以怎么样要把它回复过来这个是我们必须作为一个"},{"start":13992.264,"end":14021.756,"text":"回到現在的話怎麼樣能夠回復到當時國民最起碼是國家年金改革委員會這麼多的專家學者各部會各院而且開了20次的會議這是一個部分好我們看一樣有關公立學校教職員退休輔系條例今天要談的這個部分也是一樣行政院也送來了"},{"start":14023.391,"end":14049.935,"text":"審查的時候這很複雜很簡單就是再砍當時的立法院民進黨記憶多數再砍就是這麼簡單依民進黨團再修正綜藝條文通過也就是現行的這些法例以及相關的這些附表"},{"start":14051.184,"end":14077.416,"text":"所謂的替代力就是按照民進黨團的他就是在大砍這裡面有簡單的做一些對照我們以40年的年資來講就公立學校教職員的退休輔系條例附表3主要重點就是附表3當時行政院的版本用16年"},{"start":14079.485,"end":14104.298,"text":"到最後16年是62.5%當時立法院通過民進黨團團的修正條文11年所以前面就要大砍就是這麼一回事就以30年的年資來看也是一樣要16年才達到52.5%提早到"},{"start":14109.113,"end":14122.138,"text":"民進黨談的修正再修正動議條文是提早到11年52.5%52.5%當初的行政院版本是第11年是57.5%57.5%我們看這個40年年資的行政院版本當初第11年是67.5%"},{"start":14137.332,"end":14163.18,"text":"民進黨再修正動力調整是62.5%很簡單就大砍而已啊他們哪有那麼專業絕對沒有那麼專業就是大砍比例再大砍縮小年限就這麼簡單所以我們應該要怎麼樣再回復過來應該的應該的就是要好好的提出來"},{"start":14165.39,"end":14194.1,"text":"不然的話陳副總統當初召集了這麼多的專業人員各院各部會所討論出來的所以這個部分我們要去好好的去說明所以這個部分是我們應該要繼續在今天的審查以及未來的審查都必須要盡力的部分這個是我們讓真實的回顧好不好"},{"start":14195.41,"end":14196.912,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝鄭委員 那接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言"},{"start":14208.415,"end":14232.64,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部的長官 權序部的長官兩位次長 還有人事行政總署的張副總人事長三位長官兩位次長 還有副人事長因為我時間很短 所以我只有一個問題就是教育部的長官要不要跟我們講一下現在已經砍了七年了吧"},{"start":14234.113,"end":14257.567,"text":"這個stop here而且現在來講的話我們一直講國民所的瓦占都瓦占你照顧等於說這個政府現在很奇怪照顧全部除了要公教人員就公教人員手不軟這個我們可以想一想你可以想一想原來我們普發現金1萬的時候行政院都硬了不發執政黨團不發到後來通通要了"},{"start":14264.69,"end":14283.753,"text":"以現在來講的話你清楚看得到我剛才在提案說明我就講了我就講了到現在為止如果加上明年度的話加上明年度我們給勞保的撥補有5000億左右請問交易部的市長我們年金"},{"start":14285.634,"end":14311.725,"text":"這個公立大學的公立學校的教職員到今年底這樣子可以要砍多少下來砍多少下來我也是講比替代率的比例還是不是 金額 全部金額金額 對 對 節省多少你都不知道啊 你都不知道啊 在這裡要講啊 省多少嘛 省多少錢嘛省多少"},{"start":14314.437,"end":14321.124,"text":"省多少一山一山不止一山了三千里左右了多少省下"},{"start":14323.221,"end":14345.329,"text":"從開始107年到現在我們107到現在已經回補一柱1321不是有3000億嗎教育人員的部分教育人員的部分是13211321教育人員1321就砍了1321對不對難道你不站在教育人員的一個角度上這個未來可不可以不要砍了"},{"start":14346.309,"end":14372.645,"text":"就這麼簡單一個訴求 我們多少委員提案就這樣子STOP HERE 七年呢他原來是十年嘛 對不對我們就少三年 物價上升其他的所得 其他的都一直漲這是一個訴求這個教育部 照理講應該替教育人員講話對不對結果我們看到其他的部會都是替他們部會相關人員講話獨獨教育部也不敢講也不知道為什麼你要不要講一下"},{"start":14376.745,"end":14393.423,"text":"跟委員報告 因為維持現行規定應該是相對限職跟退休人員是一個比較永續的做法什麼叫永續 你們說如果這樣子的話會提早破產3到4年 請問那是民國幾年的事情"},{"start":14394.454,"end":14412.273,"text":"民國幾年會破產129現在多少 11415年以後的事情我們很多人不知道15年還在不在咧你要考慮15年以後的事情這個東西我覺得這個東西太抽象太空泛而且非常不實際的現在來講你看那個潛艦幾百億"},{"start":14417.885,"end":14435.819,"text":"這個潛艦快變成這個爛尾艦一樣這樣子潛 這樣子炸 這樣子滑七年來如果你是一億三多一年就兩百億左右一年差不多兩百億左右 對不對兩百億可以不可以就不要再砍了就是這樣而已啊那你用其他的什麼理由說啊 這個是永續啦是什麼之類的"},{"start":14437.16,"end":14461.845,"text":"我覺得沒有說服力啦沒有說服力 你們的報告裡面也寫啦你現在寫啦 說現在平均他的所得是5.8高於主計總書公佈的這個經常性薪資4.6那是去年囉 今年不止 今年5萬多囉今年已經5萬多囉已經5萬多 你要不要調整今年已經5萬多了"},{"start":14464.671,"end":14483.329,"text":"今年已經五萬多了不是四萬多當然他中位數沒有這麼高啦但是平均數已經是五萬多了接近你這個了所以我們的訴求其實就是苦民所苦啦你對承建人那時候是負責的年金整個改革總負責人總舵手他講的"},{"start":14484.93,"end":14511.32,"text":"軍公教 牢一起改結果牢到現在為止完全沒有改 牢就是一直補一直補 補到明年的預算加起來五千億教咧你要繼續砍 這不通啊整個不通啊這個賴清德總統都說台灣現在經濟成長 華佔度華佔GDP成長多少多少要全民共享為什麼退休人員你就"},{"start":14512.506,"end":14525.018,"text":"沒辦法去給他照顧一下好第二個問題就是那我們現在講的說以前是四年調整一次可以不可以改成兩年調整一次你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":14526.184,"end":14547.714,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前的規定是只要正負5%CPI但是如果要調整的話事實上可能還要也要兼顧到限值的跟限值的一個差異跟橫貧的部分以及目前的像陸委員講的目前平均上來講已經是5.8%85%是在5萬塊"},{"start":14552.798,"end":14557.702,"text":"這個問題是這個平均薪資已經五萬多了已經五萬多了 已經換句話說現在的這個教啊"},{"start":14561.758,"end":14583.409,"text":"叫的人員他已經是很辛苦了啦已經到樓地板了啦不要再砍了啦就這樣子一個很簡單的訴求嘛然後這個未來要隨著軍工就要調整他可以調整吧你們同意再調整吧我們現在是依照CPI增幅5%跟每4年調事實上從年改到現在已經調過兩次6%了幾年調6%"},{"start":14588.546,"end":14603.345,"text":"從年107年對嘛 就7年調6% 1年1%嘛所以我才講說 乾脆我們就兩年 然後3%就這個意思啦好 時間到了 時間很短了所以我就不多講了就是告訴各位 就告訴大家"},{"start":14604.306,"end":14623.788,"text":"我們政府對勞保是這樣對軍工特別是公教是另外一個嘴臉完全正式考量這可怕的地方在這裡我覺得你現在今天在這裡回答你也不敢回答你這個都是造本宣科反正這個樣子反正我們立法院來改嘛因為民眾黨跟我們合起來民眾黨的"},{"start":14625.049,"end":14644.602,"text":"他只是一個堅持我聽到的是說不是回到原來的我們是說stop here不要繼續看我覺得你們應該好好去認真思考這個問題好謝謝好謝謝賴委員的提醒也請這個情緒部還有教育部你們作為公務人員跟教育人員的"},{"start":14645.575,"end":14665.68,"text":"主管機關更應該要保障公教人員的權益然後還有退休人員的權益然後裡面有一些事實其實沒有講得很清楚我們也希望你們之後能夠再把相關的細節能夠講得更清楚好 那麼接下來你們先請坐接下來就是"},{"start":14666.48,"end":14695.328,"text":"再看其他委員有沒有發言張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在張其凱委員張其凱委員張其凱委員不在牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員不在徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員"},{"start":14696.178,"end":14718.872,"text":"許新英委員不在沈發慧委員沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員不在吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員不在傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在接下來我們有請羅自強委員"},{"start":14731.912,"end":14736.313,"text":"主席好有請全序部有請懷智長委員好次長好在問公教年金是否停侃的問題之前我想先問一個看起來不是全序部主管但事實上和跟年金停侃有絕對相關的問題我想請問全序部以限制來說勞保何時會破產基金何時會歸零"},{"start":14762.743,"end":14791.818,"text":"勞保部我沒有研究不知道你當然不知道 我告訴你我告訴你答案好不好我告訴你答案勞保不會破產基金也不會歸零你知道為什麼嗎市長你知道為什麼嗎你不知道 我告訴你因為政府已經公開保證會對勞保負起最終支付責任我們的前勞動部長還說撥補就是改革撥補是不是改革 請問市長"},{"start":14796.373,"end":14809.509,"text":"撥補列為改革這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來問你的面向 權序部的面向撥補是不是改革應該是這樣講撥補也是增加我們基金來源的一部分"},{"start":14811.074,"end":14827.076,"text":"來來來我跟你講勞保不斷虧損你知道為了穩定勞保財務政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢來穩定勞保基金的水位"},{"start":14828.052,"end":14856.369,"text":"你還是不知道我看新聞好像幾千億的樣子對啊 5170億而且撥補的金額越來越大109年200億逐年跳增113年1200億今年1200億115年也是1200億好 我就要回頭來問年金停侃的問題啊權敘部反對停侃年金嘛 對不對所得替代率嘛 對不對最主要理由是什麼一個啦 我直接講啦"},{"start":14857.267,"end":14886.474,"text":"不繼續砍下去不把軍工叫砍死基金會提前歸零是不是應該這樣講就是說如果我們停止那個那個那個往下所得價降我們基金大概會未來到118年大概我們會減少收入大概提前多少提前多久歸零你們講的2700多億兩年嘛對不對接近到四年129年左右兩年到四年嘛對不對所以來啊"},{"start":14887.659,"end":14907.168,"text":"我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任我也支持政府對勞保撥補但我想問你三個為什麼為什麼勞保政府可以撥補公教年金停侃政府就不能撥補為什麼勞保可以撥補公教年金停侃政府不能撥補"},{"start":14908.345,"end":14937.527,"text":"我們也都有在爭取撥補啊非常好啊 你好好爭取嘛那你主張什麼停砍年金 不反對 為什麼反對你爭取好撥補就不用反對啦你說剛說的喔 你說在爭取撥補啊我也請我們今天偉大民進黨政府啊全區部都說要撥補啊 趕快撥補還在找藉口說停砍年金 不可以第二個為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任公教年金停砍政府就不能保證最終支付責任"},{"start":14938.677,"end":14964.936,"text":"可不可以保證最終支付責任目前法律上就是這樣規定非常好 既然這樣子的話你還跟我講破產歸零還在威脅大家發不出退休金但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下邏輯根本錯亂嘛來 那為什麼我們政府保證勞保不會破產你剛才也講了啊不會破產嘛 對不對"},{"start":14966.24,"end":14993.138,"text":"我們的公教年金不會破產嗎不會破產啊你告訴我講可以撥補啊最終自負責任啊那怕什麼破產還是要修正一下沒有喔 並沒有喔我跟你講 次長今天是我質詢全序部啊我最滿意的一天你第一個告訴我說可以撥補我謝謝你 你在爭取撥補我請那無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話爭取撥補"},{"start":14996.485,"end":15021.468,"text":"那你也說 就是政府會付最終支付責任啊你撥補完 你就不用擔心破產問題啊有沒有歸零的問題啊跟勞保基金一樣啊我直接告訴你啦市長 你還有同理心啦可是我們的民進黨政府賴清德總統就是瞧不起軍人瞧不起公教 瞧不起警消就是要欺負軍人 欺負公教 欺負警消"},{"start":15023.397,"end":15040.927,"text":"國民黨跟羅志強跟我們翁小林主席我們一路的挺軍人挺公教挺警消但我很難過看著一個政府賴清德民進黨一路的踩軍人踩公教踩警消這我最難過的事情我都還沒講台電撥補"},{"start":15042.935,"end":15050.52,"text":"為了要讓綠油油賺大錢對不對錯誤的能源政策搞得今天台電虧損連連撥補3000億都不夠虧損還有將近5000億你怎麼不說台電會打"},{"start":15056.243,"end":15082.157,"text":"因為綠油有中藥嘛所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的做法最後我要跟你講啦我們的軍公 我們的公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求他要求不過是停砍有要求回到2018年嗎 有嗎 有沒有我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎 有沒有沒有嘛從一開始砍5% 接下來逐年1.5%請問現在已經砍多少了"},{"start":15083.62,"end":15088.885,"text":"從今年應該是到68.5累積起來砍多少了啊累積起來大概剩68嘛 對不對對 68.5我告訴你啊 次長"},{"start":15095.202,"end":15113.28,"text":"現在軍公教 我們的公教人員你把他血跟肉都砍光了他今天也不是沒有體諒到今天國家財政問題他只是卑微的請求你 骨跟筋不要斷掉它嘛這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金我還沒講後面 最後很快的結論"},{"start":15114.656,"end":15132.898,"text":"我們的軍工教是我們經濟發展國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石現在你也知道老師找不到以前老師搶破頭的老師找不到公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬少了七成"},{"start":15134.059,"end":15155.252,"text":"你沒有辦法吸引好的人才請問怎麼去支撐政府的運作所以拜託高抬貴手今天我也很開心今天市長告訴大家你會爭取撥補就好好爭取撥補不要再阻攔停侃年金的一個我們的這個改革了拜託留給我們的軍公教留給我們公教人員一條生路謝謝好 謝謝盧委員那麼接下來請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":15171.158,"end":15178.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我要邀請教育部 權序部跟人事總署請兩位次長還有副人事長委員好"},{"start":15183.71,"end":15200.841,"text":"各位好我想我們今天在現場都是非常關心我們公教的人員的福利那我特別關心的是其實市長知道我們在教文會質詢的時候也就是我們最近新增加的給公教人員的身心調試價"},{"start":15202.982,"end":15230.38,"text":"10月10號開始上路那很多的公教人員都很期待就是說我們在過往的試駕以外我們新增了升星條試駕的價別但是呢很多的團體教師團體在反映主要幾項問題第一個是目前私校是沒有納入待客補助第二點是這個待客人力也很難找就是如果找不到待客人力的話可能教師也不敢來請這個價"},{"start":15231.661,"end":15240.5,"text":"第三點是因為你們現行的大家原來期待的是新增價別但沒想到上路之後你們是把它併入市價來計算"},{"start":15242.338,"end":15269.747,"text":"所以我就回去找了當時我們在研議要來新增身心調試假這個價別的時候教育部也曾經邀集了我們縣市地方政府的教育局來討論嘛對不對當時有調查我們縣市地方教育局大家的意見就是有關於我們是七天試假另外加三天的身心調試假還是說三天的身心調試假併入既有的七天試假來計算"},{"start":15272.008,"end":15288.006,"text":"當時在我們22個縣市當中有9個縣市地方政府的教育局都是同意升薪調試假的3天是另外新增的也就是7天試假加3天升薪調試假總共是10天"},{"start":15290.28,"end":15302.987,"text":"當時是有七個縣市的地方交局都同意喔也認為是可行的但是我們最後上路的時候卻是三天升薪條市價併入七天市價計算來請問一下市長這個是什麼原因啊"},{"start":15304.242,"end":15329.389,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子因為我們在跟相關部會跟各式教育局談的時候大概有兩個議題一個就是要不要獨立給假的問題那這個部分因為考量到說各個不同職系因為有教師 有工人 有軍人甚至還有一些勞工所以後來才決定說我們還是以"},{"start":15330.869,"end":15352.235,"text":"納入試駕7天裡面去計算但是我們會另外提供課貸的一個補助全部由政府來支援不用讓老師來負擔那這部分相較於目前的課貸的規定是一個進步的或是有前進是 因為當初是有提到說希望教師跟公務人員是一致的"},{"start":15353.015,"end":15373.184,"text":"所以說是之前是人事總處跟全序部認為公務人員應該要三天的申請調適價要併入七天市價計算嗎能不能請全序部跟人總來給我一個回覆是的我們就是參照家庭照顧價的處理方式併入市價來做處理好"},{"start":15377.672,"end":15394.539,"text":"剛剛其實主持人已經提過了 因為各種職域這個聲音調整是大家都需要的 所以我們從軍公教開始做示範所以也不希望距離拉得太大 各職域距離拉得太大所以全序部跟人總 我們是主管公務人員嘛"},{"start":15395.563,"end":15413.994,"text":"那教育部這邊是主管教師因為現在基層很多教師還有地方政府都在反映說這三天的身心調適假在我們第一線教學現場對老師來說確實是有所需要的而大家當初期待的三天身心調適假就是新增的價別"},{"start":15414.514,"end":15429.954,"text":"你在食物上你把它併入既有的七天釋迦你看像今天台中市就傳出來啦老師說十月十號上路要來請神經條釋迦結果學校跟他說什麼你先把七天的釋迦用完再來請你看食物上就很容易會遇到這樣的問題"},{"start":15432.617,"end":15454.156,"text":"這個如果說啦因為教育部現在應該要持續的跟我們地方的教育局還有基層的教師團體持續的來討論上路之後有沒有需要調整是不是可以來研議這三天申請調試價另外計算如果說教育人員教育部這裡有這樣子的討論這個我們程序部跟人總會反對嗎"},{"start":15457.955,"end":15486.663,"text":"就像剛剛跟委員報告因為我們要考慮到其他職域的問題因為譬如說像目前勞工他是沒有這樣的假那如果我們再外加這三天進去的話那這可能要在省政考量這個齁 我們公教的人員的這些福利在社會上都是叫做帶頭示範作用像我們嘉興 過去嘉興也是我們公教先行是為了要帶動民間公司行號讓勞工的權益也可以往前進"},{"start":15487.583,"end":15508.642,"text":"不是去製造衝突這才叫做改革啊如果說我們都不敢做不敢往前跨一步那社會怎麼會跟我們一起前進呢既然我們要新增身心調適價這個價別就是因為在當代現代社會確實有所需要包括我們衛福部也都在推動青少年的身心健康把他去汙名化"},{"start":15510.003,"end":15536.113,"text":"這個在我們公教人員的福利上面去先行示範這是一個很重要的社會帶領的作用不是在製造衝突所以呢我希望教育部持續的跟教師團體來溝通討論那倘若教育主管機關嘛如果說你們就拍板定案我們教師身心條試駕三天就另外計算不病入青天試駕我希望人總跟學術部不要來反對"},{"start":15537.833,"end":15566.772,"text":"甚至也應該要來跟上這個才是有辦法去增加我們第一現場讓老師在這個替我們教學的時候可以讓他有比較好的環境那最後一點我要關心的是因為時間有限但是因為我們有這個人事總署深夜為勞津貼其實就是大夜班凌晨半夜12點到凌晨6點有來值班大部分是警消人員我們現在是嚴禮要把它擴大來發放有沒有在討論當中了"},{"start":15569.474,"end":15592.724,"text":"就是說過去只有外勤的我們現在要把駐地的內勤的深夜值班景瀟的津貼也把它加入 有沒有再研擬了跟委員報告我們因為有值班的當然有各種類型的機關那我們從景瀟海巡開始已經核定了那其他的部分我們也有這個就是跟各機關徵詢的意見在做整體的研議"},{"start":15592.944,"end":15620.674,"text":"好 我希望 這討論許久了 趕快來把它增加因為我們內勤的 直大夜班的這些警消海巡的人 都同樣的辛苦這個我再跟你們追蹤進度 好不好好 謝謝主席好 那麼登記委員登記發言委員都已經巡達完畢那現在有議員之委員再度請求巡達在場有沒有異議好 沒有異議的話 那接著請議員之委員進行巡達 那時間五分鐘為限"},{"start":15628.439,"end":15630.4,"text":"麻煩請那個權序部教育部有請兩位次長請問一下兩位次長現在我們現在針對那個教職人員 退休教職人員希望能夠停扣那政府現在立場認為會製造世代對立是不是會嗎"},{"start":15653.206,"end":15678.363,"text":"跟委報告應該不是世代對立啦而是說會影響到現職的教師嘛我聽到很多講法都是這樣啊現行教師 是吧現行教師那當然這個差距的問題以及那個退休的有沒有個事主的保障這些應該都要一起做我不太知道說這有什麼相關耶請問一下那個你們會不會勞動部也沒有講說如果不去停購已經退休的勞工的話會影響到現職現在勞工啊這兩個有什麼相關"},{"start":15684.031,"end":15689.823,"text":"市長為什麼只有在教師公教這一塊會有這個問題勞工沒有這個問題"},{"start":15691.721,"end":15714.666,"text":"因為我們從年改以後大概所減少下來的錢是回到我們基金這個部分來勞保不是一樣嗎勞保是一樣啊兩位次長我覺得重點是勞工那塊我也都支持但是很顯然就是我們政府不重視退休公教人員嘛這很明顯嘛勞保部分是用撥補的嘛"},{"start":15716.331,"end":15733.63,"text":"所以退休公教也一樣可以用撥補啊更何況現在假設按照國民黨的版本我們停扣的話現職教師比如說他四年後退休他一樣適用停扣的版本不是嗎市長請問一下是不是所以為什麼會影響到現職教師"},{"start":15734.864,"end":15751.258,"text":"我跟兩位講真正影響到現實教師是什麼好不好現在很多資深的老師都跟一些可能對於教師有憧憬的那些青年才俊講說你有別的選擇你就不要投入這個不要來當老師因為我們的政府說話不算話"},{"start":15753.196,"end":15780.771,"text":"當時他們尋求一個比較穩健的工作然後也有教書的熱忱然後結果政府說退休金說砍就砍因為不砍的話可能會影響到現職老師的福利這是政府給這一些退休老師的感覺而他們也告訴其他的現職老師甚至於準備要進入老師這個行業的一些年輕人說不要來這才是最嚴重的問題 你知道嗎次長你有聽到類似的說法嗎"},{"start":15782.475,"end":15808.209,"text":"有沒有在教育現場我想目前各方面都有各方面的聲音都有包含說年改的原因大育的問題行政量負荷太高所以兩件事情第一個我覺得停扣這個部分絕對是合理的他可以挽救政府已經所剩無幾的信任感"},{"start":15809.751,"end":15826.804,"text":"這個部分我覺得政府不用再擋了啦除了是對資深老師一個尊重之外讓他們有更好的生活保障之外也是讓大眾喚醒大眾對政府的信心之一啦第二個有關於就是退休退輔金隨著物價調整這一塊"},{"start":15828.385,"end":15853.878,"text":"因為現在等於是授權給行政院或相關機構來決定當那個物價漲得很快的時候是授權你們去決定要漲不漲嘛所以這就會產生一個空間就變成說好像不漲也沒關係就像去 本來在選舉的時候民進黨的候選人 賴清德總統告訴大家說他已經準備一筆錢要用在這個方面後來也是拖非常久不是嗎這事情你知道嗎 市長"},{"start":15855.657,"end":15878.096,"text":"目前其實只要CPI的正負5%或是如果沒有的話至少4年我們都會定期調整一次那年改到目前對啊 那要到4年問題是現在物價已經我們調了兩次了 6%因為現在物價波動很大那除了現在就是等於是看這是人質嘛就是要看人嘛我們希望把它制度化如果把它制度化以後即便是"},{"start":15879.113,"end":15900.914,"text":"政府不想調但是因為法律規定在那邊他就必須要調嘛所以我相信台灣是法治國家啦任何事情制度化一定是比較好的也不會讓你們這些工人員為難啦比如說如果換一個政府他就是對公教非常的不友善的話至少我們還有一個制度在跟著走啊所以我不知道教育部次長您也是教育 算教育的嘛你支持對老師好一點嗎"},{"start":15902.671,"end":15926.803,"text":"我們當然希望讓老師能夠在校園裡面能夠安心然後從事他自己那這是退休的部分退休也影響到現職我剛剛已經有跟你提醒過第二個我們政府你是高教出身嘛我們政府對高教特別好在那個任性預算的時候變200億個高教變0元給國教但是現在缺老師是在國教這塊缺的很多我聽說連正職老師"},{"start":15927.944,"end":15946.583,"text":"正職 考上正職喔 都不去報到有很多的原因啦 因為我們今天時間關係啦就是希望 次長你對現職老師也要好一點啦該給人家加的啦 導師費 行政費還有那個操資終點費 該給就給 不要摳這個東西啦是謝謝好 謝謝委員指導 我們會來努力好 謝謝葉委員"},{"start":15951.491,"end":15972.59,"text":"那麼今天還有陳秀寶委員、沈發慧委員、謝龍介委員、徐巧欣委員、牛許廷委員、吳宗憲委員、張志倫委員、傅坤祺委員等等都有提出書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面回覆"},{"start":15973.424,"end":16002.089,"text":"好 那委員質詢的時候要求各機關要提供的相關資料或者是以書面答覆的那麼也請相關機關要儘速送交給個別委員以及本聯席會議好的 那麼今天所列的議程討論事項報告詢答都已經完畢那麼我們就決議就另定期繼續審查那本次會議進行到此結束那麼現在散會 謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":16008.882,"end":16013.387,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}