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謝謝主席 請外交部跟國安局請林部長還有蔡局長"},{"start":14.929,"end":32.255,"text":"部長好 局長好我想本集今天就針對近期這個川習會後的這個國際情勢還有川普公開表示跟賴總統這個急要通話這個事情來提出幾個"},{"start":34.734,"end":60.323,"text":"嚴肅的問題就是本席認為說現在讓國人真正擔憂的不只是中共的任職作戰而是川習總統本人川普總統本人的不確定性因為我想川普總統他這個不按牌理出牌的這個風格已經不是新聞那他今天可以對台灣友善那明天又可以在美中國談判中把台灣當作籌碼"},{"start":61.741,"end":86.353,"text":"那我想尤其最近美國代理的海軍部長又傳出說主張要暫緩部分對台的軍售我想這讓台灣的社會非常擔心外交部雖然一直在強調說美方仍然支持對台的軍售也強調台灣並非挑釁的一方但是問題是說如果川普真的跟台灣的領導人來通話那這通電話到底是紅利還是風險"},{"start":88.989,"end":112.388,"text":"報告員只要是我想國家跟國家之間由國家元首來做對話溝通跟討論事情從台灣方面來講我們都是很正面看待因為中共都企圖矮化台灣什麼事情都要透過北京事實上在國際外交上其實即使立場再怎麼樣不一樣也能夠討論的這個就是大家"},{"start":114.73,"end":133.278,"text":"一定的平起平坐即使不同意也可以同意彼此的不同意agree to disagree所以中共就是企圖在外交上矮化台灣如果美台有國家元首的通話我想我們是很正面看待所以通話的內容我想我們很清楚我想總統方面"},{"start":134.699,"end":139.245,"text":"他們都是都有很好的準備但是這個當然也取決於川普總統他的一個這個怎麼樣去主動來促成那我們是正面歡迎"},{"start":152.08,"end":178.526,"text":"所以部長認為是紅利多一些這個是大家能夠在同樣一個就是說一個討論溝通其實是外交必要的條件如果像北京都不願意跟台灣討論任何事情這個就容易誤判那就像說我想川普也需要去跟習近平建立一個溝通的管道我想這一個跟台灣之間同樣是"},{"start":180.447,"end":186.763,"text":"這算是正面的啦齁是正面的 不用紅利啦齁不能講說紅不紅利 但基本上是一個正面的發展局長認為 局長"},{"start":188.968,"end":214.78,"text":"我很同意那個剛剛部長的講法就台北之間事實上溝通管道很多那假如說能夠有領導人之間的對話也不是壞事所以府方大概也有針對這一部分有一個態度的說明那假如進一步的規劃跟安排我想就由府方來對外做相關的一個所以局長你認為說如果川普總統真的跟我們的領導人來通電話這算是正面的事情是不是對啊對啊 府方也有這樣的一個說明也是樂觀其成"},{"start":216.061,"end":243.931,"text":"那兩位有沒有評估過就是說如果川普這通電話會不會未來是拿來又是拿這個籌碼來跟北京做談判那如果是這樣的話我們有沒有什麼因應的方式我跟你通完電話之後表示友好之後然後轉身又說我跟台灣談好了那接下來我們的包括我們的晶片包括農產品包括稀土這些東西要再重談有沒有可能有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":244.931,"end":265.192,"text":"這部分包括國安會外交部還有國安局這邊我們會做一些相關審慎的評估那包括是什麼議題那或是在什麼樣的時間點那進行的方式是什麼這都還有待細部的一個規劃那假如具體的一個狀況我剛才跟委員說明該府方要來對外來做一些進一步的說明所以也有評估過"},{"start":267.177,"end":293.123,"text":"福芳有說明是目前好像還沒有接收到美方正式的訊息啦我剛只是在回答委員的問題假如真的萬一有這樣的一個規劃的話那我們當然要做充分的一個就像本席是說我們有沒有先做好規劃要先做好準備如果真的他像他今天跟你講好明天又變的話那我們有沒有應對要準備應應的對策嘛外交本來就是在這樣子的情況國際外交是很現實的嘛"},{"start":293.723,"end":313.755,"text":"我們沒有永遠的朋友只有利益的關係我想這是很現實的問題那川普總統其實他再一次的展現出所有東西都是以美國利益為優先那有沒有可能我們的所謂的友好他有可能在他的美國的國家利益之前會被放棄掉這個有沒有考慮到我們要做一定的方式"},{"start":314.927,"end":332.563,"text":"報告委員陳如梨講的外交一定是幹在各式的國家利益怎麼樣去彼此能夠極大化自己的利益如果我們跟美國之間利益是一致其實美國不會傷害自己的利益我想在外交上最重要就是讓台美的利益一致"},{"start":333.543,"end":359.633,"text":"那當然建立在價值的外交的基礎上更需要有這個實質上利害關係那以這個川普總統他是一個所謂的一個三人性格所謂的就是他是一個great deal但是他也要make a good deal所以其實在美中之間有他談也有一些進展但是也有一些是困難"},{"start":361.033,"end":386.641,"text":"基本上台灣這個問題是習近平想談在美方這一次我們從事前事終事後其實他並沒有主動想談那想談的一方就會有求於對方那我想你剛剛提到因為所謂川普總統他的所謂的風格倒不是說什麼不安排你出牌我認為川普總統他說什麼我要注意他做什麼我們更要注意所以他的對台政策或軍售或認為說台海的和平穩定很重要"},{"start":387.961,"end":414.201,"text":"要求中共不能夠去破壞現況至於說在談判的過程裡面可能有一些修飾那個東西每個個人風格不一樣我們當然也密切注意我們一定是確保它的國家利益不會被談掉了但是我們怎麼去集大台美之間共同的利益美中去穩定關係是因為這有助於雙方面可是不代表它是一個戰略性的關係"},{"start":415.242,"end":431.567,"text":"他是要去穩定彼此不穩定的關係台灣是中間很重要我們不希望變成去可能讓川普總統以為說我們可能是不利於他去穩定跟中國的關係所以AIT古立言處長講得很清楚這也是國務院的立場也就是穩定的美中關係跟"},{"start":433.408,"end":451.994,"text":"這一個很強健的美台夥伴關係這並不衝突對 他說他要提講的是穩定的美中關係與強健的台美關係並不衝突但這個你一方面又強硬一方面又放軟這兩種策略其實在國際外交上是很常見的手法所以我們也很擔心就是說"},{"start":454.056,"end":476.398,"text":"他這樣子高度交易性的這種領導人的個性來說我們也會擔心他在乎的從來不是價值理念的相同他在乎的是利益的最大化所以我們這個部分我們也要做好預防那假設未來我們電話也通了然後新聞也有了但是後來換來是軍售的延宕台海的"},{"start":477.58,"end":486.632,"text":"這個壓力升高那甚至美方會不會就要求我們台灣在某些議題上要再做讓步那這個對台灣來講它到底是外交的突破還是戰略的傷害"},{"start":487.711,"end":508.64,"text":"我從委員的問題裡面我們都這樣回應就是說其實川普是站在美國的國家利益那我們如果跟他利益一致他不會犧牲他自己的利益因為犧牲台灣利益可能等於犧牲台灣利益所以我們去極大化台美共同的利益至於說美中之間他們在談的時候當然會有一些各取所需這個是我們要密切注意我們也要予以防範"},{"start":509.68,"end":535,"text":"大概如果真的有一些狀況發生我們要妥善因應市長其實本期意思是說我們不能過分的依賴期待在美國的這個保護傘底下一定的 委員講的是沒有錯我們一定是站在自己國家立意出發你不能期待在他的保護傘底下我們去做試圖改善兩岸這個平衡的狀態嘛所以這個東西是很危險的如果一個不小心的話可能就...就像你今天花要花的時間都遭到了我們存在自己的面對這些問題"},{"start":536.294,"end":555.107,"text":"委員講的都是對 這個是我們國際政治上我們一定從自己的國家的利益跟立場出發然後去極大化我們跟其他國家共同的利益好 謝謝副長長 主席本來在用一點點時間就是說在這一點點時間就是像我本時有看到這個鄭政權委員有質疑是"},{"start":556.849,"end":577.361,"text":"媒體引用非洲唯一有幫史瓦帝尼疑似出現援助經費用途變更的爭議這個部分曾正前委員還有提出原本要提供的史瓦帝尼住外使館採購設備援助經費大概65萬美元後續好像被改做機場貴賓室的修繕使用"},{"start":578.081,"end":603.563,"text":"那這個部分是怎麼的狀況第二個就是說這個相關的工程款後續的尾款大概有148萬美元這個部分是不是由我國駐石化地理大使館代為支付我想這部分 本期這兩個問題是不是可以回答一下報告員我們有個書面的說明另外就是簡單來講這個是有一些出入啦我們並沒有說去這個有通過這樣子的所謂的"},{"start":605.144,"end":632.418,"text":"計畫 但是 市方有一些要變更計畫它也還沒有走完程序 也沒有撥款這個也有雙邊一個委員會在監督所以我們會有書面很詳細的說明那 就是 像這個時候這個事情還沒發生就對了但是我們會妥善的來去因應因為對所謂我們不管是援助或者是說去建設一些我們的友邦到底什麼樣的項目以及它的程序我們都要做好"},{"start":633.038,"end":660.408,"text":"好,謝謝部長,我想我們外交是不容易的,然後這個是,好,來說明一下,簡單跟這個委員報告,這個雙邊這個合作款,都是有台灣跟史瓦帝尼都有一個這個技術合作監督委員會來共同來管理的,所以換言之所有的文件的審核都是兩邊,有史國跟我們台灣這邊就是我們大使館,一起來監控,那包括所有的計畫要變更,"},{"start":661.768,"end":687.217,"text":"這個也要經過這個委員會的同意來提出來那目前就像部長剛才跟委員報告的這些因為裡面有一些文件有問題所以我們根本還沒有到這個撥款的階段那所以這個目前就是還要叫使國方面還要提出相關的部會還要提出一些文件來補正那之後我們才會有到撥款的這個階段"},{"start":688.684,"end":713.577,"text":"市長那個外交確實是很艱辛我們好不用突破但是我想這個經費運用要更透明那至於有媒體這樣的提出這樣的訊息我想我們更應該讓我們所有的同仁能夠了解到我們的每一分錢用途然後並跟的時候要說明清楚那這時候再提醒我們部裡面這邊那謝謝部長也謝謝局長謝謝市長謝謝好謝謝委員我們有頭三說明"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:39.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:46:40.014000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:41.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:46:43.017000+08:00","text":"主席，我們有請外交部跟國安局。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:44.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:46:45.921000+08:00","text":"請林部長，還有蔡局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:53.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:46:54.409000+08:00","text":"部長好、局長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:54.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:46:56.210000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:46:56.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:47:13.874000+08:00","text":"本席今天就針對近期川習會後的國際情勢，還有川普公開表示要跟賴總統通話這件事情，提出幾個嚴肅的問題。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:47:15.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:47:26.418000+08:00","text":"本席現在是認為其實讓國人真正擔憂的不只是中共的認知作戰，而是川普總統本人的不確定性。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:47:27.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:47:39.323000+08:00","text":"我想川普總統不按牌理出牌的這種風格已經不是新聞，他今天可以對臺灣友善，明天又可以在美中的談判中把臺灣當作籌碼。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:47:41.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:47:50.386000+08:00","text":"尤其最近美國的代理海軍部長又傳出主張要暫緩部分對臺的軍售，這讓臺灣的社會非常擔心。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:47:51.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:48:05.353000+08:00","text":"外交部雖然一直強調美方仍然支持對臺的軍售，也強調臺灣並非挑釁的一方，但問題是，如果川普真的跟臺灣的領導人通話，這通電話到底是紅利還是風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:48:05.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:48:07.989000+08:00","text":"部長先回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:48:07.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:48:19.578000+08:00","text":"報告委員，只要是國家跟國家之間由國家元首對話、溝通跟討論的事情，從臺灣的方面來講，我們都是很正面看待的。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:48:20.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:48:39.333000+08:00","text":"中共都會企圖矮化臺灣，什麼事情都要透過北京，事實上在國際外交上即使立場再怎麼樣不一樣，也是能夠討論的，這個就是大家一定要平起平坐，即使不同意也可以同意彼此的不同意（agree to disagree）。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:48:40.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:48:58.224000+08:00","text":"中共就是企圖在外交上矮化臺灣，如果美臺有國家元首的通話，我想我們是很正面看待的，至於通話的內容，我們很清楚，在總統方面，他們都有很好的準備，但是這個當然也取決於川普總統要怎麼樣主動促成，但我們是正面歡迎的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:12.760000+08:00","text":"所以部長認為這是紅利多一些？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:14.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:20.782000+08:00","text":"這是大家能夠在同樣一個，就是說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:20.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:21.782000+08:00","text":"美國總統要直接跟領導人對話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:21.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:29.304000+08:00","text":"討論溝通其實是外交的必要條件，如果像北京那樣，都不願意跟臺灣討論任何事情，這個就容易誤判嘛！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:30.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:37.506000+08:00","text":"就像川普也需要去跟習近平建立一個溝通的管道，我想他跟臺灣之間也是同樣的道理。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:39.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:40.249000+08:00","text":"所以算是正面的？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:41.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:41.552000+08:00","text":"是正面的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:42.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:42.194000+08:00","text":"算是紅利啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:42.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:45.241000+08:00","text":"不能講紅不紅利，但基本上是一個正面的發展。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:45.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:45.743000+08:00","text":"局長認為呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:47.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:49:54.891000+08:00","text":"我很同意剛剛部長的講法，臺美之間事實上的溝通管道很多，假如能夠有領導人之間的對話，也不是壞事。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:49:55.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:03.275000+08:00","text":"府方針對這部分有一個態度的說明，假如有進一步的規劃跟安排，我想就由府方來對外做相關的說明……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:04.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:12.300000+08:00","text":"所以局長也認為如果川普總統真的跟我們的領導人通電話，這算是正面的事情？對啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:12.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:13.760000+08:00","text":"府方也有這樣的說明，也是樂觀其成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:15.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:23.084000+08:00","text":"兩位有沒有評估過，川普這通電話會不會未來又是拿這個當籌碼來跟北京談判？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:23.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:28.446000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，我們有沒有什麼因應的方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:29.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:42.911000+08:00","text":"我跟你通完電話表示友好，然後轉身又說，我跟臺灣談好了，接下來包括我們的晶片、農產品、稀土這些東西要再重談，有沒有可能是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:43.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:50:56.404000+08:00","text":"針對這部分包括國安會、外交部還有國安局，我們會做一些審慎的評估，包括是什麼議題、是在什麼樣的時間點、進行的方式是什麼，這都還有待細部的規劃。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:50:56.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:02.771000+08:00","text":"假如有具體的狀況，我剛剛也跟委員說明，應該由府方對外進一步說明。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:03.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:04.192000+08:00","text":"所以也有評估過，如果真的發生該怎麼因應……","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:07.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:16.219000+08:00","text":"府方有說明目前好像還沒有接收到美方正式的訊息，我剛剛只是在回答委員的問題，萬一有這樣的規劃的話，我們當然要做充分的準備。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:17.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:19.540000+08:00","text":"局長，本席的意思是，我們有沒有先做好規劃？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:19.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:26.482000+08:00","text":"要先做好準備，如果像他今天跟你講好，明天又變的話，我們是不是要準備因應的對策？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:26.482000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:28.362000+08:00","text":"部長，是這樣吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:28.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:37.766000+08:00","text":"外交本來就是這樣子的情況，國際外交是很現實的，我們沒有永遠的朋友，只有利益的關係，我想這是很現實的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:37.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:49.893000+08:00","text":"其實川普總統再次展現出所有東西都是以美國的利益為優先，有沒有可能我們所謂的友好有可能在他美國的國家利益之前會被放棄掉？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:50.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:51:52.735000+08:00","text":"這個有沒有考慮到我們要因應的方式？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:51:53.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:52:19.786000+08:00","text":"報告委員，誠如你講的，外交一定是站在各式的國家利益，彼此能夠極大化自己的利益，如果我們跟美國之間利益一致，其實美國不會傷害自己的利益，我想在外交上最重要就是讓臺美的利益一致；當然，建立在價值外交的地方，更需要有實質上的利害關係。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:52:20.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:52:22.327000+08:00","text":"以川普總統是一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:52:24.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:52:25.208000+08:00","text":"商人性格。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:52:26.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:52:50.036000+08:00","text":"他是一個great dealer，但是他也要make a good deal，所以其實在美中談判之間有一些進展，但是也有一些困難，基本上臺灣這個問題是習近平想談，而這一次就我們從事前、事中、事後的觀察，其實美方並沒有主動想談，想談的一方就會有求於對方。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:52:51.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:53:11.445000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到川普總統的風格，倒不是不按牌理出牌，我認為川普總統說什麼，我們要注意，他做什麼，我們更要注意，所以他的對臺政策或軍售，或認為臺海的和平穩定很重要，而要求中共不能夠去破壞現況。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:53:11.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:53:26.016000+08:00","text":"至於在談判的過程裡面可能有一些修辭，那個東西每個個人風格不一樣，我們當然也密切注意，我們一定是確保臺灣的國家利益不會被談掉，但是我們怎麼去極大臺美之間共同的利益。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:53:26.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:53:37.343000+08:00","text":"美中去穩定關係是因為這有助於雙方面，可是不代表它是一個戰略性的關係，他是要去穩定彼此不穩定的關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:53:37.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:53:57.550000+08:00","text":"臺灣在這中間是很重要的，我們不希望變成讓川普總統以為，我們可能不利於他去穩定跟中國的關係，所以AIT谷立言處長講得很清楚，這也是國務院的立場，也就是穩定的美中關係跟很強健的美臺夥伴關係，這並不衝突。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:53:59.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:54:25.929000+08:00","text":"AIT講的是穩定的美中關係與強健的臺美關係並不衝突，但你一方面又強硬，一方面又放軟，這兩手策略其實在國際外交上是很常見的手法，所以我們也很擔心，以他這樣高度交易性領導人的個性來說，我們也會擔心，他在乎的從來不是價值理念相同，他在乎的是利益最大化，所以這個部分我們也要做好預防。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:54:27.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:54:41.366000+08:00","text":"假設未來我們電話也通了，新聞也有了，但是後來換來的是軍售延宕、臺海的壓力升高，甚至美方會不會要求我們臺灣在某些議題上要再讓步？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:54:42.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:54:45.612000+08:00","text":"這個對臺灣來講到底是外交突破，還是戰略的傷害？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:54:46.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:54:58.956000+08:00","text":"我從委員的問題這樣回應，其實川普是站在美國的國家利益，我們如果跟他利益一致，他不會犧牲他自己的利益，因為犧牲臺灣的利益可能等於犧牲他的利益，所以我們去極大化臺美共同的利益。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:54:59.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:12.143000+08:00","text":"至於美中之間，他們在談的時候當然會有一些各取所需，這個時候我們要密切注意，我們也要予以防範，如果真的有一些狀況發生，我們也要妥善因應。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:12.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:17.287000+08:00","text":"部長、局長，其實本席的意思是，我們不能過分依賴，期待在美國的保護傘底下……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:17.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:21.670000+08:00","text":"一定的，委員講的沒有錯，我們一定是站在自己國家的利益出發。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:21.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:34+08:00","text":"你不能期待在他的保護傘底下，我們去試圖改善兩岸平衡的狀態，這個東西是很危險的，如果一個不小心的話，可能到時候你真的喊要打的時候，人都跑光光了，剩下我們自己要面對這些問題。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:35.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:45.181000+08:00","text":"委員講的都是對的，就國際政治上，我們一定從自己國家的利益跟立場出發，去極大化我們跟其他國家共同的利益。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:45.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:55:46.722000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長、局長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:55:46.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:03.693000+08:00","text":"主席，本席要再借用一點點時間，本席有看到鄭正鈐委員有質疑，媒體引用外媒報導指出，我們非洲唯一的友邦史瓦帝尼疑似出現援助經費用途變更的爭議。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:03.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:19.984000+08:00","text":"這個部分鄭正鈐委員好像有提出，原本要提供史瓦帝尼駐外使館採購設備的援助經費大概65萬美元，後續好像被改做機場貴賓室的修繕使用，這個部分是什麼狀況？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:19.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:30.233000+08:00","text":"第二個，相關工程後續的尾款大概有148萬美元，這個部分是不是由我國駐史瓦帝尼大使館代為支付？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:31.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:33.475000+08:00","text":"部長，本席這兩個問題是不是可以回答一下？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:33.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:34.476000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們有個書面的說明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:35.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:56:54.630000+08:00","text":"另外，簡單來講，這個是有一些出入，我們並沒有通過這樣子的計畫，但是史方有一些要變更計畫，他也還沒有走完程序，也沒有撥款，這個也有雙邊的委員會在監督，所以我們會有書面做很詳細的說明。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:56:57.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:57:11.398000+08:00","text":"事實上，這個事情還沒發生，但是我們會妥善的因應，我們不管是援助或者是去建設一些我們的友邦，到底是什麼樣的項目以及它的程序，我們都要做好。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:57:12.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:57:14.359000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長，我想我們外交不容易……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:57:14.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:57:15.359000+08:00","text":"我請司長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:57:15.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:57:16.300000+08:00","text":"好，說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顏司長嘉良","start":"2026-05-25T10:57:17.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:57:44.329000+08:00","text":"簡單跟委員報告，有關雙邊合作款，臺灣跟史瓦帝尼都有技術合作監督委員會來共同管理，換言之，所有文件的審核都是兩邊，由史國跟臺灣的大使館一起監控，包括所有計畫要變更，也要經過這個委員會同意再提出來。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顏司長嘉良","start":"2026-05-25T10:57:44.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:06.197000+08:00","text":"目前就像部長剛才跟委員報告的，因為裡面有些文件有問題，所以我們根本還沒有到撥款的階段，目前還要叫史國相關的部會提出一些文件來補正，之後才會到撥款這個階段。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:06.197000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:09.185000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝司長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:09.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:14.388000+08:00","text":"司長，外交確實是很艱辛，我們好不容易突破，但是我想經費的運用真的要更透明。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:15.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:27.794000+08:00","text":"至於有媒體提出這樣的訊息，我想我們更應該讓我們所有的國人都了解我們每一分錢的用途，變更的時候要說明清楚，這個再提醒部裡面。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:29.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:31.296000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，也謝謝局長，謝謝司長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:31.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:32.557000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員，我們會妥善說明。謝謝。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2026-05-25T10:58:33.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T10:58:35.628429+08:00","text":"接下來請馬文君召委。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}