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交通部衛生福利部就常榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1716.776,"end":1744.938,"text":"本日会议专题报告及讨论事项采纵和询答经委员王洪威罗廷伟刘建国及翁晓琳说明提案指去由劳动部部长报告及说明后委员陈昭芝等19人提出质询其中含提案委员说明提案指去均经劳动部部长交通部民航局局长何淑萍及卫生福利部一事司专门委员郭威忠及各相关主管等及其答复委员卢宪逸及陈寅所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报"},{"start":1745.698,"end":1769.807,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定討論事項審查行政用行情審議委員分別擬據職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等21案決議一說明及詢答完畢二行政用行情審議職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等21案"},{"start":1770.627,"end":1789.815,"text":"条文内容及修正动议宣读完毕另则其再行审查10月16日讨论事项继续审查行政院含情审议委员分别拟据儿童托育服务法草案等29案相关部分条文修正动议共14案决议一本日会议审查结果如下"},{"start":1791.765,"end":1797.051,"text":"1.照行政院提案通過第51條、第54條、第5張章明、第65條、第72條、第6章章明及第75條至第78條條文2.第48條修正通過3.第53條修正通過4.不予列入"},{"start":1808.102,"end":1830.575,"text":"1.委員林淑芬等25人提案第65條2.委員王玉明等24人及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第6張章明3.委員王玉明等24人提案第43條及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第44條4.委員王玉明等24人及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第47條5.委員王玉明等24人及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第7張章明"},{"start":1831.616,"end":1845.35,"text":"6委員林月琴等16人委員邱若驊等16人委員陳富岳等16人及委員游浩等17人提案第68條委員何新淳等16人提案第67條委員王玉明等24人提案第64條委員顏寬恒等16人提案第62條"},{"start":1847.513,"end":1871.994,"text":"7.委員林月琴等16人及委員邱若驊等16人提案第71條委員何欣淳等16人提案第72條委員陳素月等16人及委員游皓等17人提案第73條8.委員王玉明等24人提案第68條及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第65條9.委員林月琴等16人及委員邱若驊等16人提案第75條委員王玉明等24人提案第67條"},{"start":1874.857,"end":1902.778,"text":"10 委員林月琴等16人提案委員何新淳等16人及委員邱若驊等16人提案第79條委員王玉明等24人提案第74條委員陳素月等16人及委員游皓等17人提案第80條委員顏寬恒等16人提案第71條11 委員王玉明等24人提案第76條及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第73條12 委員林月琴等16人委員邱若驊等16人委員陳素月等16人及委員游皓等17人提案第85條"},{"start":1903.999,"end":1916.228,"text":"委員何欣淳等16人提案第84條 委員王玉明等24人提案第80條 委員黃健庭等17人提案第49條括弧5保留條文1行政院提案第47條第49條第50條第52條第55條至第64條第66條至第71條第73條第74條及相關對應提案條文2"},{"start":1925.094,"end":1950.927,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人提案第61條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第63條3 委員陳佩玉等19人提案第81條委員林淑芬等25人提案第82條委員侯孟凱等21人提案第72條4 委員陳佩玉等19人提案第84條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第85條2 行政院函請審議兒童托育服務法草案等29案尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1955.192,"end":1976.599,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好議事錄確定那第四本日會議議程為邀請環境部經濟部農業部內政部就太陽能光電板暗場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討進行專案報告並備質詢"},{"start":1981.321,"end":2010.016,"text":"审查委员赖瑞荣等16人委员陈婷飞等16人委员张志伦等17人委员王玉敏等24人台湾民众党党团委员黄建豪等19人委员牛许婷等25人委员罗明才等20人委员罗廷伟等17人分别拟据噪音管制法部分条文修正草案及9案以上专案"},{"start":2011.576,"end":2036.109,"text":"專題報告及法律案才綜合詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭資委員王振旭委員林月琴委員羅廷偉委員再來"},{"start":2037.25,"end":2062.552,"text":"介紹列席官員環境部部長彭啟明環境保護司司長徐淑芷大氣環境司副司長郭孟雲水質保護司司長王育彬國家環境研究院院長劉宗勇"},{"start":2065.277,"end":2091.142,"text":"資源循環署副署長林建三環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥經濟部次長賴建信能源署署長李軍理他可能會晚到一點再來就是水利署副署長黃洪普國營事業管理司專門委員林華宇"},{"start":2093.525,"end":2120.761,"text":"標準檢驗局檢任計政陳榮富產業發展署檢任計政童建強台灣電力股份有限公司副總經理孫愉華台灣糖業股份有限公司處長胡聰年台灣自來水股份有限公司處長陳文祥以及處長謝東穎"},{"start":2125.278,"end":2143.767,"text":"農業部次長黃昭清畜牧師司長李一千資源永續利用司副司長黃興達農田水利署主任秘書朱孝恩漁業署組長陳文生農糧署副組長饒美菊"},{"start":2152.322,"end":2179.973,"text":"農村發展及水土保持署副組長尹孝元林業及自然保育署的檢任繼政黃敬彥然後內政部國土管理署主任秘書歐振興而國家公園署主任秘書張維權警政署交通組副組長黃義三"},{"start":2183.376,"end":2208.982,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理司專門委員趙敬偉公路局主任秘書林益聖法務部法治司副司長林黛麗然後補充介紹剛剛來到現場的林淑芬委員還有剛剛的這個能源署署長然後李軍理李署長"},{"start":2213.854,"end":2228.409,"text":"再來接著請提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨沒有不發言好那請羅廷偉委員說明"},{"start":2238.018,"end":2263.404,"text":"好 感謝召委今日排審 噪音管制法第28條條文修正草案噪音車輛長期以來對環境安寧造成嚴重的干擾早就該 早就該 早就該修正草案了不僅擾亂居民的休息也影響著學習甚至是孩童的生活品質為解決此問題維護民眾安寧以及空氣品質"},{"start":2267.125,"end":2290.726,"text":"各縣市政府陸續推出了進程專案科技執法甚至是聯合稽查相關的手段來杜絕改裝噪音的老民問題然而現行噪音管制法所訂定的噪音管制的標準以及對今民眾檢舉並經主管所通知以後仍未於定期限期"},{"start":2291.747,"end":2309.978,"text":"在地点上能够检验者所做的罚款整个额度均低于道路交通管理处罚条例第43条第1项第5款的规定所以今天我们照应管制法第26条第28条的条文修正"},{"start":2311.419,"end":2326.388,"text":"針對超出噪音管制的機動車輛強化相關的罰則本次的修法有兩個重點提高罰款金額將現行的額度由新台幣1800元到3600元以下調整為3600元以上"},{"start":2332.984,"end":2352.061,"text":"到三萬六千元以下以提高違規抑制的效果第二 增訂累犯處理的規定參考道路交通管理處罰條例四三條第四項的規定增訂於一年內違反兩次者得一送"},{"start":2352.802,"end":2379.479,"text":"公路監理機關調扣其駕照6個月加強嚇阻力最後感謝環境部對本案的支持也期盼召委能夠盡快的逐條審查共同來維護社會安寧以上謝謝羅廷偉委員說明接下來請環境部彭部長就本日會議議程專題報告及法律案並案報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2388.519,"end":2408.679,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座的各部會還有媒體朋友大家好由我來報告關於太陽能光電板暗場環評的機制還有保護區的廢棄物的管理的檢討那首先呢跟各位報告我們現在全世界的太陽光電板全世界的這個總裝置容量已經到年底可以到2800GW"},{"start":2410.18,"end":2427.787,"text":"那我們台灣大概目前到8月底的時候已經超過15GW大概佔了0.5%左右那全世界到目前為止都是在因為要符合淨零的一個目標所以大概每年都是以15到30%也就是說500到800GW之間都在成長當中"},{"start":2428.787,"end":2451.287,"text":"那我们台湾过去呢其实也经历了一个太阳光电板毁损的事件这个应该是全世界到目前为止最大规模的一个毁损总共在丹纳斯台风期间毁损了12.1万片那当然了这个是业者自己必须去清除但是也凸显了说我们在这个法规上面或者制度上面还是可以有进步的地方所以本部呢其实也跟经济部"},{"start":2451.727,"end":2466.412,"text":"也有積極的去協調希望能夠改進未來這種所謂的大型的一個光電板他必須要有一定的這個這種檢核的一個措施或是廢棄物清運的一個措施那其實當中那就遇到一些是是而非的言論其實我們當時"},{"start":2467.853,"end":2485.14,"text":"其實也遇到一些例如說光電板綻放的地方是不是有紅色的水那本部也積極的去這個檢查查驗那後來也把那個洪水證實是所謂的農地的一個腐殖酸所造成的並非說它是一個重金屬的一個嚴重的污染"},{"start":2485.58,"end":2510.618,"text":"那另外一個網路上有很多的訊息包含這隻鳥喝了紅色的水然後就倒閉那我們也馬上很快的就送警檢調單位查詢也確實證實是來自於對岸的一個假訊息那引發我們很大的一個恐慌那目前我們為了這樣的一個訊息能夠讓大家知道在本部的官網都有特別一個光電板的一個專區清理的一個專區讓大家可以知道"},{"start":2511.078,"end":2530.732,"text":"那當然啦這個光電板的設置呢在這個水域上這個水庫上面到底會不會有影響其實根據這個我們的這個農業部特別是他們針對這個光電廠的上中下游整個有一些偵測那大家有意見的就是介面活化劑那經過本部的水保師的討論驗證之後其實它是普遍存在環境當中"},{"start":2531.733,"end":2550.732,"text":"而且這次驗出來的結果跟標準值差異蠻大的是在一個偵測的極限當中它無法區別人為或是天然當中但是其實它並不是所謂的適應性的感官的物質本部會持續的來監控這樣的物質那另外一個大家最關心的是全球水面型的光電大概有多少"},{"start":2551.152,"end":2565.584,"text":"那我們很認真的統計了也查詢了大概全世界大概有上百個水面型的光電暗藏有的大概只有1MW差不多是一公頃左右有的呢可以到達新的話可能到達五六百MW大概五六百公頃"},{"start":2566.144,"end":2586.009,"text":"不過他們當地的這個水庫是比較大的每個國家場域不大一樣我們目前在國際上可以搜尋的到就是有鳳山 烏山頭還有阿公店三個水庫我相信可能陸續也有一些的這個水面型的一個光電那我們本部對於太陽光電的處理我們是負責在這種環評的一個階段"},{"start":2588.41,"end":2610.952,"text":"那過去的確在去年修法之前並沒有所謂的光電板要環屏全世界也沒有什麼太多的一個限制不過縱使沒有環屏它也必須取得地方政府的一個許可或是目的事業機關包含了出流水的管制 水土保持的計畫甚至包含能源署的環社檢核的一個機制都有在進行"},{"start":2611.573,"end":2631.756,"text":"只要有目的實業主管機關做成許可的準博才可以來開發其實有沒有環評我們也有主管機關在負責做這些事情那本部呢其實大家關注到各界都對於這個水面型的光電有意見我們也特別去搜尋了不過呢也跟各位報告因為我們的環評的機制是全世界蠻特殊的一個機制我們有否決權"},{"start":2632.637,"end":2654.07,"text":"然後也可以否決目的世衛主管機關跟很多的國家是不大一樣的但是本部還是針對這個議題我們認為必須很負責任的保護環境為第一個優先那本部在過去的今年的1月16號也公布了環評的對於這種太陽光的一個機制不過是針對這種敏感區域在山坡地等等要20MW"},{"start":2655.191,"end":2674.816,"text":"或是15公頃以上必須要環評這個是到目前為止我們所看到全世界相對比較嚴格的一個國家的制度那全世界對於水面型的光電環評根據本部努力收集的結果目前還沒有但是我們認為我們可以來討論來研議這些事情我們希望是不是可以年底能夠達到一個設定一個環評的一個目標"},{"start":2678.497,"end":2693.063,"text":"目前因為過去從民國98年一直到現在其實一開始只有針對重要的濕地的環評的規定到我們今年1月16號開始針對山坡地或是整個敏感區域的環評的規定我們因為泰納斯颱風過後"},{"start":2694.924,"end":2710.193,"text":"國人非常感到這個關注所以我們認為呢還是必須要以這個修訂為一個研議修訂來當成我們一個目標同時本部呢還有其他的環評的一個例如說碳補儲跟風存有一些試驗的有一些未來要做的也應該要來環評"},{"start":2711.033,"end":2735.263,"text":"所以本部正在進行這個每年年度的這個環評的研議的修正我們希望把它放進去不過這一定要以環境保護為優先科學數據為基礎取得社會共識來納入環評的研議那目前的這個檢討正在進行當中我們是10月31號以前歡迎各界提供各式各樣的一個意見有一些認定標準可以出來我們就可以進行公聽然後盡快的就可以來進行公告"},{"start":2735.783,"end":2748.076,"text":"第二個呢是水質把關其實水質把關呢是本部的這個水保師在負責的目前呢我們過去在針對每一個水庫特別是淨水廠都有進行整個水質的一個量測那針對這次烏山頭水庫呢其實包含了這個農業部都有相關的"},{"start":2753.241,"end":2767.874,"text":"本部是針對嘉南受損的光電滯洪池我們主動進行的一些量測那其實都是符合標準的那紅色積水 如我說的它是屬於土壤腐蝕酸所造成的那本部呢是針對民生用水所需要的水質的安全"},{"start":2768.314,"end":2793.655,"text":"所以我們針對例如說以舉例烏山頭水庫其實我們每一個淨水廠我們都有量測目前這個烏山頭水庫的下游的淨水廠水質都安全無虞而且我們是拿PFAS這個全服化合物的項目來檢而且包含了相關的新興污染物都是遠低於指引值我們以歐盟的標準為基準那針對這個光電板的環境衝擊研究其實本部"},{"start":2794.495,"end":2812.735,"text":"也因為感謝委員本委員會的委員在去年初的時候我們的附帶決議要求我們針對幾個水庫進行量測所以我們在今年的1月跟3月進行兩次的一個量測那我們兩側都沒有看到污染的一個風險那另外一個我們進行了一個極端的一個試驗"},{"start":2813.476,"end":2827.329,"text":"什麼是極端的實驗呢左邊是我們量測這個所謂的現場實測的水質然後另外一個是模擬溶出的實驗這個第一個是經過破壞的條件之下在酸性條件之下看有沒有重金屬釋出"},{"start":2828.43,"end":2850.435,"text":"第二個是光電板經過破壞經過浸泡三個月之後看有沒有重心組釋出目前像這個程序是非常難做的我們的同仁我們國環院是負責做這個事情他們把光電板收集到了之後把它破碎這個破碎基本上用人工是無法破碎都要用機器來破碎最後破碎的樣品經由相關的溶出的實驗"},{"start":2851.255,"end":2878.151,"text":"符合這個相關的失業廢棄物的毒性的特性的溶出的程序來進行目前這個報告我們上禮拜五本部有一個記者會公開跟大家說明所有數據都是符合飲用水的標準但是我不代表說這個溶出之後我們可以拿來喝這個是不允許的基本上我們是不希望但是本部是針對我們的民眾所喝的進水廠有沒有遭受到可能的風險進行一個量測都是符合安全的那未來我們要怎麼做其實國人對於"},{"start":2879.732,"end":2904.691,"text":"這個光電板還是有一些疑慮所以我們特別請我們的國家環境研究院本部下面的國家環境研究院能夠來啟動長時間的研究調查希望未來一兩年內有一些初步的結果那這個呢就希望整合國內所有進行相關的不管是能源或是製造或是相關的這個學者環境影響的學者包含的土地利用 水質 水質跟水環境"},{"start":2905.231,"end":2920.24,"text":"生物系跟生態系例如說有些人認為光電板上面在水庫有光電板是可以減少這個蒸發的減少蒸發的對於這個優氧化是有幫助的但是也有人有一些反對的意見我們希望有一些更好的充分的討論跟調查"},{"start":2921.261,"end":2933.991,"text":"或是說它影響到我們國家的氣候或是微氣象它包含特別熱甚至呢也有人告訴我們說光電板它本身排碳量比較高反而是不環保的我們可以統一的來進行計算或是說它對於這個視覺的景觀"},{"start":2938.414,"end":2958.322,"text":"民眾的這個生活會造成衝擊到底如何去避免這個都要研究那另外一個呢是關鍵板施工當中也有一些噪音或是施工的衝擊這個也要另度評估最後一個呢就是退役回收跟長期的監測這個也是必須要考量在裡面的所以我們目前初年的八個面向我們希望未來呢一兩年內"},{"start":2959.062,"end":2977.698,"text":"能夠經由我們國家環境研究院統轄各個學術專業的部門一起來提出一個比較完整的報告讓國人可以在這個平台裡面進行討論也就是說我們希望能夠確保用可量化用科學的方式能夠來討論這樣的一個問題那第二個呢是針對這個最近的環保的犯罪的問題"},{"start":2979.042,"end":2997.702,"text":"也跟大家報告我們對於犯罪破壞環境就是一種罪這個是我們非常堅持的所以在過去這一年多檢警還掉過去就已經很積極在做但是這次我們更積極的希望能夠來進行所以目前環保犯罪是零容忍的所以我們破獲的量是非常的多那針對目前這幾次這幾個月發生的整個"},{"start":3000.765,"end":3026.099,"text":"這種所謂亂置廢棄物的問題本部在五月的時候跟內政部還有法務部合開一個記者會其實我們從去年年底開始我們就針對土方廢棄物的解決方案提出了四個方式來進行第一個是去化的量能一定要趕快找出來哪裡可以去化第二個要管理的強度第三個是智慧圍籬第四個就是本部在推動的啟動修法作業包含了廢清法"},{"start":3026.479,"end":3046.311,"text":"或是資源循環推動法希望能夠在裡面所以內政部也提供相關的一個法規的制度我們希望因為這個營建剩餘土石幫跟廢棄物是我國到目前為止都沒有一個完善的解決方式那我們其實也注意到這個問題所以5月有提出來了那我們期待是在明年1月1號開始能夠來進行"},{"start":3048.152,"end":3068.823,"text":"那現在呢其實我們已經在還沒有開始執行的時候其實已經結盟在一起所以各位看到很多非法的案件也都是檢警環調這個平台能夠破獲出來的我們是希望能夠找到上游把這個關係人可以找到不是只有找到開車的這個司機而已希望把整個鏈因為這個其實是有利可圖的"},{"start":3069.403,"end":3085.089,"text":"那其實這樣破壞環境就是一種罪我們絕對不手軟的會來進行這個事情我們也把這相關的非法棄置各種的環保案件都特別放在網路上面就是要周遭讓大家知道這個是會有重罰的也會有後面的很大的刑責在裡面"},{"start":3085.669,"end":3113.119,"text":"那未來呢 關於本案本委員會委員許多提到了一個噪音管制修正法我們非常感謝各位委員提供這樣的執法的工具給我們因為我們過去從源頭末端加強管制都有在推動但是呢 其實相關的如果這個法則可以更清楚更重的話多管齊下管制噪音車我相信都可以提升台灣的這個安靜的程度會顯著的增加本部也競表支持委員的各種提案 謝謝"},{"start":3121.678,"end":3124.321,"text":"謝謝彭部長請經濟部賴次長報告時間5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":3134.759,"end":3154.999,"text":"主席各位委員大家好城門委員會就太陽能光電版暗場的環評機制進行報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教首先跟各位說明的是接軌國際淨零排放的這個趨勢國際上皆是以太陽能光電為推動的重點之一"},{"start":3155.865,"end":3170.31,"text":"在全球能源轉型及淨零排放的目標下再生能源已經逐步成為各國電力系統中主要的電力來源依照國際再生能源總署的統計資料截至2024年底"},{"start":3172.901,"end":3189.321,"text":"全球再生能源的裝置容量已經達到4943GW佔整體的電力的裝置容量46%再創歷史新高而2024年全球新增的再生能源容量"},{"start":3190.582,"end":3212.787,"text":"達到585GW其中太陽光電更達452GW預佔7成左右顯示再生能源已經成為各國提升能源自主實現永續發展的核心手段而光電的發展是最為快速其次太陽光電是一個低強度的開發行為"},{"start":3214.327,"end":3232.085,"text":"各國皆將太陽光電為再生能源發展的重點項目截至2024年底為止我國太陽能光電發展裝置容量達到14.28GW佔再生能源總裝置容量21.07GW之比重"},{"start":3235.428,"end":3263.221,"text":"達到68%與鄰近的先進國家比如說日本日本的光電佔比69%韓國光電的佔比佔了79%約略相當持續趨勢顯示太陽光電已經成為全球跟我國不可或缺重要的電力來源之一第二點跟各位報告的是我國光電的環評標準比其他國家更為嚴格"},{"start":3264.622,"end":3273.336,"text":"世界各國都視太陽光電為低強度的開發行為影響的強度遠低於其他開發行為但是"},{"start":3274.656,"end":3301.274,"text":"国际也没有把它列为应办还品的事项或仅针对一定规模以上的光电设施采用相对密度低的管制措施国际光电的还品分为三种形态第一个德国设置太阳能光电无需办理还品第二种类型新加坡是由主管机关依照个案来决定是否办理还品"},{"start":3302.154,"end":3324.02,"text":"第三类是亚洲比如说是日本韩国分别以40MW跟100MW作为是否办理环屏的分界并没有针对复合型光电要求办理环屏第三点我跟各位说明的是我国光电的环屏标准第29条已经将太阳光电"},{"start":3325.603,"end":3332.254,"text":"涉及到特定的區域應辦理環評比如說是國家公園野生動物保護區重要濕地"},{"start":3334.025,"end":3361.806,"text":"沿海保护的敏感区设置一定规模以上的山坡地必须要办理环平相较于其他国家已经较为严格第三 跟各位说明光电的生设有相关的法规做严谨的把关近期对于地面及屋顶型的光电已经有强化灾害的防灾能力另外对水库的光电也有水质的监测以确保符合标准"},{"start":3362.406,"end":3380.747,"text":"那現行的光電的生設有嚴謹的程序除了電業的審查之外還有必須要經過區域計劃法非都市計劃法土地使用管制規定甚至是其他規定的要求至於在災害的防災的部分"},{"start":3382.439,"end":3410.491,"text":"針對地面型經濟部已經修法針對20MW以上的光電廠在申請合法電位執照前依照災害防救法提報防災計畫經能源署來核定那相關的防災計畫的審查的重點包括業者電線防災的這個規劃暗場的防災措施甚至是廢棄物的暫置規劃以及模組的回收等等"},{"start":3412.028,"end":3415.474,"text":"那至於屋頂型的部分我們也在今年7月4號預告"},{"start":3417.321,"end":3445.143,"text":"侦测安全跟定期检查的规范要求模组跟支撑的结构正背面都可以提高高抗压比如说是17西方的这个检验标准那水库的光电它设置之后亦严谨要求用清水的冲洗全程不使用清洁容器然后定期检测水样那经过检测的结果都符合标准没有污染水质的情况"},{"start":3447.184,"end":3473.995,"text":"經濟部會持續的跟各界溝通以科學驗證的角度包括收集國際的資訊後續配合環境部的會商的這個程序來確定相關的修法的依據那對於工協會跟社會各界我們也保持密切的溝通那希望提供相關的數據跟大家建立相關的共識以上報告進行指教謝謝大家"},{"start":3476.508,"end":3478.154,"text":"謝謝謝謝次長請農業部黃次長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":3491.21,"end":3506.418,"text":"主席各位委員大家好本部就太陽能光電板暗場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討進行專案報告 敬請各位委員不吝指教本部農業綠能政策秉持著農業為主 綠能加值"},{"start":3506.798,"end":3521.566,"text":"的這個主軸在確保農民權益促進農業發展及維護生態環境的這個前提下優先推動農業型屋頂設施的太陽能光電再逐步發展地面型餘電共生兼顧糧食生產及能源轉型達到農業綠能目標務實的這個達成使農業跟綠能能夠共存共榮"},{"start":3529.33,"end":3551.778,"text":"我國在有關於這個綠能 農業綠能的推供情形我國在115年太陽能光電的這個裝置容量目標為20GW其中農業綠能呢 肩負了9GW目前已經完工的有3.97GW在各類型施工中的有1.56GW申請中的有1.69GW"},{"start":3553.359,"end":3572.77,"text":"如果加計這個經濟部所列管的農地變更設置的這個光電設施1.5GW的話那所有的這個農地設施太陽能光電裝置容量約為8.72GW那另外呢本部透過法規還有這個農地盤點等做法避免光電設施影響到農業生產的這個環境"},{"start":3575.411,"end":3596.387,"text":"本部的这个农业容许使用审查办法里面呢针对农业绿能设施必须基于农业用地的生产事实并且与农地使用具有相容性使得以容许的方式来在农地上设置光电那在现行的这个容许办法在推动地面型的这个光电呢"},{"start":3596.767,"end":3620.142,"text":"主要以渔电共生跟不利农业经营区来设置光电这两类为主那渔电共生选址是由本部来盘点具有这个渔业经营结合绿能可能性的这个区位送经济部办理这个环境与社会减和机制之后再由经济部会同本部来公告至于不利农业经营区是由地方政府"},{"start":3620.526,"end":3634.85,"text":"依據地層嚴重下陷 長年淹水 土壤研化這些已經不是在做農業耕作的這些地形地貌呢導致近5年沒有農業經營適時的區塊來進行盤點並且在104年到107年之間公告那目前已經沒有在做相關這個不利農業經營區的這個公告了"},{"start":3643.692,"end":3668.07,"text":"如果光電暗場位於農業水庫那應該以不以影響灌溉水庫安全蓄水功能以及不污染環境為前提下使得設置那以台南烏山河水庫為例光電的這個設施器材水面浮力式的所以太陽能板吸用浮桶鋪設於水面之上面板並不直接接觸水體那太陽能板也均通過國際檢驗的這個標準不會釋出或滲出液體"},{"start":3671.573,"end":3685.557,"text":"那太陽能板的這個清洗呢則以清水進行嚴禁任何使用任何的清潔劑藥水化學藥劑那本處的本部的農田水利署嘉南管理處也會每年定期的進行水質監測那維護這個環境監測的結果均符合標準水質並沒有受到影響"},{"start":3691.559,"end":3707.688,"text":"另外有關於太陽能光電案場的環境影響評估已結那根據環境部所修訂的這個開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定那目前呢在這個農業特定區之用地 散播用地"},{"start":3708.608,"end":3728.14,"text":"主要的這個標準在20MW以上或15公頃以上的情形應納入這個環境影響的這個評估又如果光電廠遇於山坡地那應依水土保持法那你據水土保持計畫送主管機關審核後實施如果散開的這些標準應該送環境影響評估者那並應令檢部環境影響評估審查一併送審"},{"start":3732.122,"end":3755.34,"text":"那相關的這個經濟作為為了審核這個農地容許的這個部分本部於今年的2月修訂了這個預告修訂這個農業容許辦法如果你所送的這個計畫書未符合這個原原核定的這個計畫的話明定在3個月內限期改善得展延一次也就是說在6個月內如果沒有"},{"start":3756.361,"end":3774.97,"text":"欠期改善的话那我们急废止他的容许并通知能源主管鸡瓜继续候处那另外呢为了让农地变更做太阳能光电还有这个对农业生产生态环境的影响降到最低所以本部与也是在今年2月跟经济部共同的这个"},{"start":3775.97,"end":3792.514,"text":"公告了農業用地變更為設置太陽能光電適宜性的這個快篩表那針對土地的這個合適性排除第一級的敏感區特定農業區還有農業施政投入區位等這些一定不能夠作為這個光電使用的農地呢先行公告以減少業者這個投資的浪費那另外有關於這個水土保持法的這個規定呢"},{"start":3800.956,"end":3821.943,"text":"本部基於中央主管機關的立場呢運用衛星影像拿捷岸月的這個監控有疑似的如果越界開發相關的事情會立即通報縣市政府依法查處以嚇子不當的這個行為那本部為了確保農食糧食安全以及農地資源的永續利用明定農業綠能設施的設置規範在兼顧糧食安全與這個環境生態的前提下"},{"start":3827.565,"end":3831.948,"text":"實地達成農業與綠能共融發展的目標 以上報告謝謝黃次長報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告"},{"start":3848.396,"end":3870.324,"text":"第一本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘第二10點半截止發言登記第三委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理第四暫定10點半休息10分鐘第五本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位第一位的委員陳昭資委員發言"},{"start":3876.715,"end":3879.756,"text":"世界主席有請部長 彭部長陳委員早 部長早 部長你剛剛也有報告到 當然是颱風撞到南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量 這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月 7月的時候 16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說"},{"start":3904.022,"end":3926.516,"text":"已經完成99%的清理但是根據媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成了99%嗎"},{"start":3928.981,"end":3956.622,"text":"感謝委員的意見這個新許我有看到我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的場域我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長我是說首長在回答備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細"},{"start":3958.383,"end":3973.298,"text":"99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力"},{"start":3974.039,"end":3994.25,"text":"在清理現場 就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好 報告委員我沒有背書 我重罰我重罰 這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬"},{"start":3996.291,"end":4004.537,"text":"我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出我們沒有政府沒有出去冒錢"},{"start":4016.304,"end":4040.199,"text":"這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間多在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元"},{"start":4041.9,"end":4057.647,"text":"捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長址都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛"},{"start":4058.547,"end":4081.267,"text":"所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":4083.563,"end":4102.896,"text":"報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK"},{"start":4107.138,"end":4128.632,"text":"當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡"},{"start":4132.557,"end":4156.289,"text":"那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種"},{"start":4157.309,"end":4183.868,"text":"這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒才會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底"},{"start":4184.983,"end":4209.06,"text":"到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員 這個其實有幾個層次第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈 要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點"},{"start":4209.6,"end":4226.708,"text":"那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便清運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的"},{"start":4227.588,"end":4248.481,"text":"直接露天這個是不願意被允許所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質文教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項左邊有11項但是他的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準"},{"start":4249.542,"end":4265.84,"text":"那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了"},{"start":4270.885,"end":4298.23,"text":"甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊"},{"start":4298.75,"end":4323.662,"text":"我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調謝謝部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢"},{"start":4324.362,"end":4349.156,"text":"對 這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到告一段落之後我們一定會來做因為過去沒有思考嘛但是現在要積極改變嘛那先請法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段"},{"start":4350.717,"end":4366.937,"text":"就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個關聯案場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎"},{"start":4367.558,"end":4382.995,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提過要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被詢的時候黃國昌總召說"},{"start":4385.057,"end":4407.963,"text":"他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難"},{"start":4408.843,"end":4434.828,"text":"卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2"},{"start":4436.469,"end":4448.704,"text":"那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘"},{"start":4451.627,"end":4473.758,"text":"正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商"},{"start":4474.438,"end":4500.972,"text":"那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊"},{"start":4502.333,"end":4529.885,"text":"都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度"},{"start":4530.796,"end":4548.775,"text":"好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了嘛 是所以要積極介入好嗎 好 沒問題這是環境署稱環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員 好 謝謝我們會做 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員請陳清惠委員發言"},{"start":4556.551,"end":4559.262,"text":"謝謝主席我也請部長 謝謝請彭部長"},{"start":4564.74,"end":4587.99,"text":"陳委員好我7月16號的時候在這邊諮詢過那那個時候獲得了幾個資訊就是第一個屏東這個飄散的福台啊我拿到了廠商企劃書第二就是說光電板應該要納入因回收項目這個你8月初有預告嘛對不對不過我是從去年3月份就提案到現在過了一年半終於要做了"},{"start":4588.57,"end":4604.895,"text":"好剛也有講到很多環評你之後要做一個總體檢光電的環評要加嚴提出一個修法的方向這個我等一下再慢慢吸問你但有一個很重要的是我讓你回憶一下所以我們先看一個影片我跟你要了一個清單"},{"start":4606.095,"end":4627.036,"text":"你說九月初會給我但到現在已經快要十一月了你還是沒有辦法拿出來我希望片片要回收這件事情我們可以看得到你實際的做法清單裡面就包括廢棄的光電板有失蹤的要告訴我們失蹤的幾片然後提早廚藝的都很不積極很擺爛"},{"start":4628.257,"end":4642.633,"text":"好 我們從頭開始讓你稍微回憶一下你現在告訴我們說是這個意思嗎 部長你好您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了 我們會覺得說"},{"start":4643.134,"end":4645.575,"text":"我跟這位網友是不認識的但他覺得自己很委屈部長 您是認為他在造謠嗎"},{"start":4663.68,"end":4689.82,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果我們9月5號前沒有清那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面呢主要是處理食棉這最主要的廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證光電板是零好 這個廠商之前我們有跟你去考察你說很不積極 很擺爛他把光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法不在乎被你罰300萬你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":4692.142,"end":4704.738,"text":"每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證正號當初您說失蹤的 廢棄的 需要回收的真的到年限了 您也會告訴我八月底之前 您覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎可能要到九月中九月中 好 我再修改"},{"start":4706.854,"end":4726.247,"text":"當時我們是說9月中現在快要11月了我始終一直沒有看到這個清單所以全國人民不知道因為一個風災到底有多少光點板會提早除役到底有多少找不回來到底有哪些是正正式式的被回收回來的按照規定的你現在可以給一個答案因為我已經問三次了"},{"start":4726.727,"end":4755.559,"text":"報告委員關於那個因為我們剛剛有一個數字12.1萬片齁那其實有多少片是進到回收場裡的那有1.2萬片是還在堆置然後他準備要送到送到這個回收去做處理那這個部分呢因為每一個光電板都有序號其實這個序號的處理是經濟部能源署在負責當中那他們告訴他們說會一點時間因為那個幾萬片啦不是幾十片所以目前呢他們說還要給我一點點時間才能夠全面給我因為我也在追這個事情"},{"start":4757.862,"end":4767.535,"text":"所以是甚麼時間我一直在等他們所以能源署有要上來回答嗎你們有要上來幫忙回答嗎還是沒有"},{"start":4773.197,"end":4793.608,"text":"經濟部有市長代表還有能源署我們需要知道我們需要知道你哪一些是提早除役的然後我們又需要再添購新的光電板哪一些是真正試試回收哪一些是他到年限除役的哪一些是失蹤的大家很在意的是最後你沒有找回來的序號到底有幾片嗎"},{"start":4794.528,"end":4823.406,"text":"因為現在很多記者都已經拍到啦蓄洪池裡面還有海裡面還有山裡面還有啊跟委員說明我們現在太陽能這個光電的這個暗場大概在丹納斯颱風的時候受損的大概依照我的印象中應該有33個暗場占整體的裝置量的千分之四左右那整體的影響的這個所謂的光電板的片數大概是12.1萬片左右"},{"start":4824.006,"end":4841.08,"text":"至於你剛剛講的是說哪一些是要除疫的哪一些是因為我們太陽能的這個發展是近幾年來才開始陸續的發展那因為太陽能光電板它是一個非常穩定的一個物質因為它的使用壽命還有達到20年左右到目前為止的話還沒有"},{"start":4841.527,"end":4867.993,"text":"應該是還沒有處理的還沒有處理的案子對 所以他們很多其實是提早被回收了嘛 對吧你的意思是這樣嗎因為需要汰換的時候提早回收沒有 我說因為風災那風災的話這已經有清理了也到這個所謂的我們環境部所指定的那失蹤的呢回收的這個場地失蹤的呢那這個要可能要一個序號一個序號來做比對啦我剛剛講的說12.1萬片嘛"},{"start":4871.62,"end":4892.478,"text":"對所以你現在你們兩個都講不出什麼時候可以給清單清單的部分因為現在有幾個去處然後這個我們會跟這個環境部來合作是不是容我們這個會後再提供給委員好不好多久這個要看他們這個回收進來半年一年比例"},{"start":4895.18,"end":4921.53,"text":"因為他 何國委員這個一片一片是我有看到啦但是如果要12.1萬片齁那個數 那個量真的很大因為我們有一直要求說沒關係啊 你也可以說一年啊我不能這樣 但是我們會努力去追查啦委員我知道你希望我們可以給我會努力能夠追到這個數字因為我也很想看因為的確有些是整個碎掉了然後那個可能用論金種可能有多少的量那大概可以算得出來"},{"start":4921.83,"end":4941.819,"text":"對 因為大家也想關心有多少是最後找不到或是被違法碎掉的連你都有看到嗎報告委員 不會有違法碎掉的每一頁都清楚像這幾個 委員你看到這幾個我這幾天特別請我同仁確定9月6號有沒有拍照片其實9月6號我們清查的時候沒有這個照片因為那個是一個開闊的場地"},{"start":4943.22,"end":4954.909,"text":"所以是不是9月6號以前拍或是之後拍或是說誰都可以進去或是說他被這個下大雨之後這個被沖刷出來也有可能所以這個部分我們這禮拜會再去調查本來他在圖裡後來他被沖刷以後就露出來了但沒關係因為你的副署長林建三他就直接說"},{"start":4962.515,"end":4984.694,"text":"如果現場的狀況是像這樣子的確還可以再依照廢清法來裁罰好我們剛剛已經看影片了你說你罰了300萬900萬但是你要罰到他們清完為止可是很顯然的已經有陸陸續續蠻多記者在各地都有拍到請問你要不要換別招因為看起來你說你要罰到他們清完為止好像沒有什麼"},{"start":4985.414,"end":5004.375,"text":"我們9月6號的確是有查那我這禮拜也會請我們同仁再去看過一次是不是突然又跑出來 或是說因為這個是開過的場地 誰都可以去的嘉義縣已經額外開罰了是不是所以又罰了嘛 對不對所以900又往上了嘛 是吧對不對 同一家廠商是不是"},{"start":5005.718,"end":5014.349,"text":"是同樣一家廠商 對嘛但是他是那個就是說遺留在現場沒有清理的部分那嘉義縣他已經看過了也跟我們南區住宅大隊就看過了有開花單了"},{"start":5016.357,"end":5038.603,"text":"好部長我只是要問你你上次跟我的答詢你是說你很有決心你要罰到他們親王為止可是很顯然的就沒有辦法包委這個是事後有一些小的因為那個委員那個面積你也去看過你的意思就是說事後有一些小的其實你還是就是會陸續開罰就對了對會去處理一定會去處理那我們也可以之後再跟你們要最後你們開罰幾件對不對"},{"start":5040.363,"end":5060.309,"text":"對 當然這個是地方環保局在協助在開發這個是剛剛陳昭芝委員提到過的那我先追問啦它這個塑膠微粒啊因為你的報告裡面有寫你把光電板打碎然後泡在水裡面你們去驗那這個水質是沒事的但是你是不是有沒有考慮每三個月 每六個月"},{"start":5061.169,"end":5084.197,"text":"同樣的你還要再驗因為你在意的像上次被繳稅的福台可能也有塑膠微粒雖然報告裡面沒有很詳細你驗了哪些但我相信你有驗中金屬類你有沒有驗塑膠微粒塑膠微粒它的方法學全世界都還在確定當中那目前這個塑膠微粒的計算都是在實驗室的討論是不是請我們國環院院長來做一個快速的講"},{"start":5086.859,"end":5109.953,"text":"我們目前做的是對環境風險比較高的重金屬那塑膠微粒這個東西的檢測因為現在還在發展中所以目前那個是困難度比較大好 塑膠微粒沒有驗 好 知道了那部長我想問你既然會驗它有沒有打碎裡面有重金屬你有沒有考慮三個月後 六個月後因為可能有一些光電板的確是掉在其他找不到的地方了"},{"start":5110.273,"end":5128.201,"text":"那他三個月後六個月後就會試這個可能我們也可以擔心的物質會釋出來那個是一個極端值的實驗不是說那個可以拿來喝喔因為那個是極端我們是把它整個碾碎 碾碎變成粉這樣在處理的對啊 但是久了它是不是會釋出來這個是大家在意的嘛這當然 這當然"},{"start":5129.221,"end":5157.8,"text":"你會做嘛對不對因為這個是屬於廢棄物的研議我會請我們同仁來設計一個科學的實驗這不是說我覺得要幾個月因為藏任何的東西例如說我把我的手機放到水裡面當然都會有污染那剛剛你講到說你也會列入暗場防災救災設計的要求那這個的話你的時程大概是怎麼樣規劃這個是能源署他已經有相關的規定了剛剛這個次長也有說20MW以上"},{"start":5159.981,"end":5185.451,"text":"但是環評 剛在講防災跟救災這一些的光電業者必須要做災防計畫對啊 我說你的時程你預計什麼時候希望他們具備災防的計畫我們已經公告然後已經要處理了那現在就是開始在做這一些事好 那接下來這個水庫型的光電板我也想問一下"},{"start":5188.272,"end":5211.138,"text":"這個應該部長你有關心到這個新聞我有去鳳山水庫看那個光電板但是因為有網友還有當地的居民告訴我說他們感覺生態鳥變少了還有岩鼠變少了好我就給你看一下之前他曾經被內政部列為重要的失地但是呢108年卻取消了重要的失地"},{"start":5211.798,"end":5235.599,"text":"那因為其實在失地法裡面就有規定說如果要開發的話會需要環評他取消重要失地以後這個光電板暗場就建起來了我現在想問為什麼列為失地跟取消失地裡面沒有環境部的角色你有沒有覺得很奇怪這個是內政部主責的 失地是內政部主責的我想問你的觀點嘛"},{"start":5239.346,"end":5268.579,"text":"因為這個很詭異的是這個報告他取消了當時重要失地的報告裡面呢他甚至有提到這個失地裡面有一級的保育類動物比如說油準跟白尾海鵰還有二級的保育類動物類似什麼什麼什麼他都有列出來喔他就是一個失地分析報告表他這個失地分析報告表講完了以後說有一級保育生物二級保育生物結果最後他就禁制取消他被列為重要失地"},{"start":5269.904,"end":5291.902,"text":"我想聽環境部的觀點會不會認為濕地列入或者是濕地要被取消難道環境部裡面沒有角色嗎報告委員 這個其實是有一個我們政府裡面有一個濕地的小組在審議委員會來認定是不是那我相信我們環境部也在也有一個角色在進行我知道台水 台水今天有來對不對台水"},{"start":5298.635,"end":5319.594,"text":"台水回答了出來為什麼當初會把他從重要濕地沒有列上去取消他的這個重要濕地嗎因為你的這個報告書裡面明明就有寫他有一級二級保育類生物你要回答嗎跟委員說明喔台水公司啊所管理的鳳山水庫啊他是一個早期台水公司"},{"start":5321.495,"end":5348.021,"text":"開發的一個水庫他是主要是來供給工業用水為主的那這個水庫也依照水利法有一個明確的定義所以剛剛委員所提到的這個失地的所謂的認定的部分那內政部在做的失地的認定他會召集的各部會然後依照科學的數據跟專家的評估跟法規的要求我知道我只是簡單想問你為何取消"},{"start":5348.661,"end":5369.751,"text":"因為它就是水庫水庫的管理的話它在水利法的管理已經有一個很明確的標準我們全國90幾座水庫裡面不管是對於水庫的水質或是水庫蓄水範圍的使用其實它都有比相關的特別的作用法還有更嚴謹的要求包括安全 包括水質的部分"},{"start":5370.356,"end":5398.014,"text":"我知道啊但是濕地保育法就是說如果你開發它的話你就必須要經過環評所以它中間就取消了它是濕地嘛水利法這我都不是你現在講的是濕地但是現在水庫的話水庫依照它的蓄水範圍比如說是環評法的認定的標準在水庫的蓄水範圍裡面相關的這些的開發它當然也有受到相關嚴謹的規範"},{"start":5400.336,"end":5423.429,"text":"好沒關係台水要回答嗎報告委員那剛才所次長所講的大概就是我們那個時候解除的一個原因其實台水公司是被動的然後也就是說當在整個失地的一個審查的時候我們是提供我們的意見然後尊重委員會最後的一個決議以上"},{"start":5423.829,"end":5444.665,"text":"沒關係我等一下再跟你索取當時你們是怎麼做這決定因為你的報告寫到的是他生態其實是蠻重要的但最後是解除失地報告委員這個資料可能要跟內政部要因為他是失地的一個主管機關最後再請環境部部長"},{"start":5446.348,"end":5466.495,"text":"部長這個我知道你親身都有去過就是高雄我們從1月就開始被堆置一大堆廢棄物的碼頭山還有梅農大峽谷這個梅農大峽谷根據當地的居民講應該是開挖了一兩年以上那這個廢棄物是我9月22的時候發文希望你們可以去抽樣採檢因為居民很擔心"},{"start":5467.735,"end":5494.505,"text":"結果過了三個禮拜收到你的回函一看真的是嚇一跳碼頭山你跟我說目前沒有地下水相關監測的資料但是你要規劃好好選擇一個合適的地點進行監測但是呢你到當邊看你說用看的沒有問題是一般廢棄物所以其實你沒有做任何採檢你是用環保局的可是當地的人他就是"},{"start":5495.665,"end":5514.18,"text":"從1月開始投訴環保局的採檢是最近大家已經覺得不耐人信任了所以才會希望公正的第三方環境部可以站出來再來花旗湖是碼頭山的下游經過了那麼多次雨水的沖刷花旗湖是他們用來灌溉農地的"},{"start":5514.981,"end":5531.457,"text":"關於那個農作物的 這個這邊可不可以請你也介入 可以嗎好 這個我們再去了解一下不過委員 這個其實第一個要把行為人這個法院的判刑能夠抓到 這是最重的因為這個處理是地方環保局在處理的啦那我們也會提供必要的一個協助"},{"start":5532.199,"end":5551.696,"text":"我先給你看現在的圖他現在還只有清二十分之一 二十分之二左右所以那邊的人憂心忡忡希望公正的第三方站出來以及美濃大峽谷你給我的報告是說在最近呢"},{"start":5552.817,"end":5578.179,"text":"最近好幾次的檢測都沒有問題監測井的位置都是好的所以你研判沒有受到汙染那你11月根據本來的時程你11月會依照本來的時程再檢測但是這是一個全國熱議並且農民已經說對他們的農作物有影響了大家希望看到環境部是right nowright now你就去做檢測"},{"start":5580.04,"end":5598.91,"text":"但是你卻說過去三年都沒問題啊所以不需要我依照原本的時程就好了覺得這樣不是很奇怪嗎這個地下水的偵測或是因為他是屬於青稻這個營建廢棄物啦那這個我們會密切的一個追蹤不過委員因為這個其實要處理他一定要把行為人整個罵漲整個抓起來"},{"start":5600.231,"end":5623.697,"text":"所以委員再等一下時間這個我不方便細說我們這個檢警環到哪一種程度但是要把那個解決把行為人找出來他要負責清查這才是我們要做很積極要做的事那委員提到的一個環境的檢測我們會積極再跟我們團隊來研究一下怎麼幫忙高雄市政府來做這個事情謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳勤惠委員請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":5638.148,"end":5639.889,"text":"麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是"},{"start":5660.055,"end":5688.741,"text":"也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮 比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質 今天都有看你的報告嘛 氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道 甚至各個案場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話 長時間浸泡在"},{"start":5690.001,"end":5699.624,"text":"海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質所以"},{"start":5700.885,"end":5730.425,"text":"我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力"},{"start":5731.165,"end":5758.843,"text":"但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高質化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較"},{"start":5760.705,"end":5775.503,"text":"所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的也要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫"},{"start":5776.944,"end":5806.076,"text":"報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收這個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生了突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法"},{"start":5806.576,"end":5828.592,"text":"其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候 因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重金屬被完整的回收"},{"start":5829.412,"end":5851.025,"text":"報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上"},{"start":5853.024,"end":5880.657,"text":"所以費金馬修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理廠端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億"},{"start":5882.598,"end":5896.752,"text":"但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎"},{"start":5897.873,"end":5914.929,"text":"包委員 這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有邀請我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法"},{"start":5916.029,"end":5944.532,"text":"這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理"},{"start":5945.738,"end":5970.268,"text":"目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發我們目前就有這樣的工具上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰"},{"start":5971.068,"end":5991.077,"text":"我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼"},{"start":5992.68,"end":6015,"text":"包委員因為那個各種的工業他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前我們"},{"start":6015.82,"end":6043.727,"text":"當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且它是有利於淨零的但是它對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧"},{"start":6044.409,"end":6061.596,"text":"空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊"},{"start":6062.256,"end":6091.194,"text":"我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點"},{"start":6092.214,"end":6106.161,"text":"所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵"},{"start":6108.742,"end":6127.025,"text":"這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電廠破壞三波違規開發被撤照之後河山廠的周邊"},{"start":6127.746,"end":6145.527,"text":"海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突"},{"start":6147.549,"end":6168.911,"text":"所以我三點建議 第一個就是社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化 避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議 還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準 讓制度更有預測性"},{"start":6169.727,"end":6190.669,"text":"避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制那我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和"},{"start":6192.31,"end":6207.054,"text":"我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長"},{"start":6216.598,"end":6242.148,"text":"委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做當面目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的"},{"start":6242.894,"end":6265.22,"text":"數量的這個斐收的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年"},{"start":6266.36,"end":6283.869,"text":"根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在"},{"start":6284.569,"end":6308.847,"text":"也會劃設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊"},{"start":6309.828,"end":6333.842,"text":"我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間"},{"start":6336.377,"end":6361.993,"text":"謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向目前我們從去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開"},{"start":6363.214,"end":6388.462,"text":"透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個聲色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程"},{"start":6389.682,"end":6392.364,"text":"第二 能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程"},{"start":6398.105,"end":6423.731,"text":"原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相"},{"start":6424.491,"end":6449.973,"text":"相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地"},{"start":6450.553,"end":6465.593,"text":"那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位"},{"start":6466.734,"end":6494.401,"text":"國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你次長這邊我們如何盤點流程簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進步在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員"},{"start":6497.008,"end":6525.441,"text":"請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席有請部長請部長劉委員好部長好部長你現在是目前衛環主管三部會中重慶520還健在的部長"},{"start":6527.386,"end":6551.572,"text":"你會不會擔心因為會太陽能光電板會摔了一大跤我這樣提醒你不是沒有原因啦齁因為你前面幾位的部長我大致上都有提醒過太陽能光電板的這個回收的問題嚴重啊大家好像好像都蠻樂觀 包含現在的環境部也一樣是樂觀的在面對這個事情那現在已經爆發了"},{"start":6552.998,"end":6572.91,"text":"我覺得如果持續這樣的心態會很危險我是從2016年的10月質詢當時的林群院長以及李院署長有關於太陽能光電板的回收去化的議題2016年就已經知道2031年會出現第一波太陽能板的太萬潮"},{"start":6574.093,"end":6597.003,"text":"但是我們2025年就今年丹麥斯颱風就已經造成了13.5萬片約2800公噸的太陽光電板毀損去化立即發生的問題然後2025到現在再到2031還有6年6年的大限也差不多快到了會不會打破"},{"start":6599.068,"end":6627.385,"text":"環境部原有的預估還有當時的這樣的一個規劃所以是不是要有很大很大的一個修正跟調整的一個空間我這麼講啦齁我這麼講你看嘛齁這也是部長你講的我是應部長的講法當時颱風發生之後造成損毀這麼多我們每個月可以去化2900噸理論上是應該可以消化這個呃這個太陽光電的潰板齁"},{"start":6628.035,"end":6656.33,"text":"那主要的原因來自單一業者的態度消極延宕清運甚至於因為計較處理成本而此為護管才導致進度落後這是部長講的話是那照理講照理講明明都有回收基金而且偏偏都有登錄都有登記然後又是暗藏業者然後再來環境部應該也找跟業者有做衝的溝通甚至在委員會也多次包含我們"},{"start":6657.29,"end":6682.132,"text":"這一個屋頂型的我們都好像回答的都有相關的這樣的一個積極因應的有制度的機制不過那一次坦白講我問了兩次之後那個其實是到最後才比較肯定答覆我那現在面對這麼龐大的這樣的一個建制的量那基本上我們現在一個單次颱風好像就真的破功了雖然我們花了他900萬"},{"start":6683.686,"end":6711.248,"text":"但是那個3萬光電板還留在原地沒有沒有沒有 早就清除到這個你早就清除是多早之前9月5號9月5號 對對好 那現在還有多少尚未清除全部清除了全部清除了現在有1.2萬片它是放在準備佔置區它準備去清除那那個是合法放置一般廢棄物的地方好 我現在齁我現在要再跟部長提醒一點就是說如果這次的颱風"},{"start":6713.369,"end":6717.907,"text":"他是更加倍那我們可以在915號就完全處理清楚嗎"},{"start":6719.714,"end":6748.676,"text":"這個可能你現在沒辦法答覆我啦因為要看那個狀況嘛如果它是2900多的兩倍有辦法在9月5號之前處理掉嗎因為當時颱風是7月份來嘛如果一個月的量是2800那應該也是要9月份就可以解決嘛邏輯上是這樣但是我們現在看到一個狀況目前台灣只有六家具有處理太陽光電的這個許可證的廠家嘛 對不對就是這廠家只有四家是甲級 兩家是乙級的"},{"start":6749.557,"end":6761.436,"text":"我不曉得環境部能不能還有這樣的胸口撐住的把握來跟全台的人民百姓說未來還是有能力來積極應用這台太陽光電板壽命到最後起的大量的台灣草"},{"start":6762.563,"end":6786.463,"text":"還有這個自信嗎以現在這個家數來看報告委員 其實因為這次因為這幾家大多數都在北部那我們期待是有中南部也有一些業者那現在來看的話也的確有兩三家的確有跟我們提出申請有這個意願來做這個事情所以我們會審慎的來規劃這個事情因為部長你從就任到現在其實你是也是"},{"start":6787.544,"end":6805.662,"text":"環位的三個部位被肯定最多的啦謝謝因為你都很積極的在因應而且反應速度也很快但是但是這些太陽能光電板我真的會擔心是是處理不好不妥當會導致你的你的你的這樣的一個聲譽會真的會很大的受損那你聲譽受損相對的"},{"start":6807.003,"end":6824.57,"text":"也代表我們碳能關電的這些晦氣的量能處理得非常的讓人民無法接受嘛對不對我再補充一個資料我不曉得部長是不是有沒有掌握這樣的訊息一個足球場的面積大約是7,140米然後2016年當時全國碳能關電板的建置大約是1,125個足球場"},{"start":6833.905,"end":6854.087,"text":"你說截至到目前為止他們光電板已經在台灣建置幾個足球場的面積我們現在15GW啦1MW大概是1公頃所以是15000公頃左右所以我要去算一下足球場的面積是多少"},{"start":6855.482,"end":6869.654,"text":"組長面積就是7140 配妹啊 對不對那你再去乘以0.3 0.24嘛 對不對 這個抓出來差不多 我也這樣差不多 一萬七千多截至目前經濟部公園院的統計 已經高達17723個足球場"},{"start":6876.328,"end":6898.027,"text":"的面積這麼大也整整在短短的九年間喔短短九年間台灣的光電板覆蓋面積已經增加到15倍年增率35%比台積電還強總面積約1.26億平方米相當於台北市的總面積的一半"},{"start":6900.154,"end":6912.225,"text":"真的不要再去說這個光電板20年的壽命問題或是這個天災人禍還有新階段幾乎已經是無法負荷的狀態全台只有4家甲級"},{"start":6914.229,"end":6936.337,"text":"你環境部敢說這些有辦法幫你處理我覺得委員會也不敢幫你背書啊況且這些處理業者是全部都清空專門在等待處理燙的光電板嘛也不可能嘛 對不對那剛剛部長你打呼我 我是抱歉給你吐槽嘛你說9月5號已經處理完畢嘛你暫制的還多少"},{"start":6937.71,"end":6952.683,"text":"暫制的還可以算是處理完畢嗎一萬兩千片對嘛就是沒有處理完畢嘛只要是暫制的就不能叫做處理完畢啦應該是這麼說嘛所以我還是希望我具體在這邊要求部長啦"},{"start":6953.684,"end":6974.199,"text":"不要因為這個事情摔了一大跤可能依照你的處理的事情的態度要更積極更快速來做這個因應是不是兩個週內可以盤點出來就像你講的那些處理業者基本上都在北部那你北中南是不是要快速的來做一些相關的盤點甚至有規劃性的來做一些鼓勵"},{"start":6975.42,"end":7003.192,"text":"不要再到時候又有業者不積極配合還在嫌那個什麼成本不夠等等諸如此類的事情發生兩個星期內可以來來跟委員會再度的說明清楚你的規劃跟未來的這樣的一個部件嗎可以嗎好 謝謝你可能自己要立下軍令狀可能這個速度才可以趕得起來那第二件事情是這樣再過五天就10月25號部長知道是什麼日子嗎台灣關戶節沒有啦 跟你環境部有關"},{"start":7004.711,"end":7015.626,"text":"臺灣公婦節我不會問你吧部長的反應讓我有點汗顏十二十五號叫做清潔隊員日對 好 OK公婦節謝謝部長答覆"},{"start":7021.005,"end":7047.682,"text":"這是一個對你來講對全國的清潔隊員是一個非常重要的日子沒有這些辛勞的清潔隊員台灣的環境沒有辦法維持到這麼乾淨整潔啦但所以我們對這些清潔隊員我們都非常清楚他當然所屬是地方政府所轄管啦不管是一般的縣市市下市還是鄉鎮區公所來做這樣的一個管理但是部長知道嗎新北市政府現在對新北市的清潔隊員"},{"start":7048.802,"end":7077.707,"text":"健檢補助增加5000首創惠部的篩檢也就是惠部低劑量的電腦斷層LDCT嘛好那我不會去要求部長說全國22個縣市就一致全部的經費就拉到一樣嘛因為但是我們也不能讓這個縣市有錢就有做那個縣市沒有錢就不用做這對清潔隊員來講好像好像一國多次"},{"start":7078.514,"end":7098.056,"text":"那站在環境部身為一個主管機關我們要怎麼樣來因應這個事情報告委員因為我上禮拜也去頒獎我們傑出的優秀清潔隊員那我也非常感謝他們那其實我也關注到像包含了台北新北他們的福利跟其他的縣市是落差蠻大的"},{"start":7098.736,"end":7126.737,"text":"我們這邊當然是希望說全國有一個歧醫的標準但是這個清潔隊員他還是屬於地方政府的地方自治的項目我們現在第一個是在法規上面我們是希望可以盡量的歧醫有一個平臺也會希望各縣市的縣市首長能夠重視這一塊第二個如果我們中央可以做得到的話我們會努力的希望能夠再爭取一些經費當然這個跟地方的還是有一點差距所以我們會努力來做這個事情"},{"start":7126.997,"end":7149.897,"text":"我要提醒部長做這件事情真的是非常有意義而且你站在環境部的最高的主管來看待這個事情照顧全國的清潔隊員課不容緩然後也不是說新北市有錢就來做那其他一般縣市我想這個惠部這個低劑量的斷層掃描基本上也符合賴總統在講的嘛他目前國建署衛福部的國建署就有針對高風險"},{"start":7151.938,"end":7180.848,"text":"有家族死的 有肺癌家族死的還是這個吸菸 有這樣的狀態的兩年一次就免會來做LDCT的這樣一個檢查那清潔隊長期暴露在這個粉塵高風險的族群裡面那我們台灣的肺癌又是國病的第一名全球的15名那國健署又要配合賴總統所推的健康台灣希望這個肺癌的支持率可以下降到三分之一"},{"start":7182.459,"end":7197.194,"text":"這一個特定的高風險的族群環境部的主管就應該來發聲要不要把他納入也是在免費的項目其中之一的對象這部長來喊這個話應該賴總統可以接受了"},{"start":7198.634,"end":7218.17,"text":"應該可以聽得進去嘛照顧全國所有的清潔隊員畢竟他們為我們台灣的環境每一個角落 每一個縣市 每一個鄉鎮公所他們扮演非常重要的角色他也是我們國家 我們政府的同仁也是我們的夥伴嘛所以由你來發聲我覺得是最適當不過的是不是部長也可以來做一個承諾"},{"start":7219.411,"end":7245.669,"text":"謝謝委員因為我也常常說台灣很需要台積電但是台灣不能一天沒有清潔隊員所以這個我也公開跟他們說所以我也在上禮拜我也跟他們的優秀的清潔隊員承諾我會來努力來爭取所以委員理出的建議我之前沒有特別想過謝謝委員那我會來極力的來爭取好我希望部長能在你的任內對清潔隊員的照顧有相關的這樣的一個進步與提升好不好這個還是要給我一點時間來做處理"},{"start":7249.391,"end":7257.158,"text":"我給你時間啦 你要給我時間答覆啦你多久時間可以來努力到一個月一個月好不好一個月內喔 好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝劉建國委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":7271.64,"end":7295.571,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席那我請彭部長請彭部長還有我們國務部副司長林黛麗好 蘇委員好部長 最近辛苦了謝謝 多謝希望這樣沒到外國去玩最近是你最痛苦的時候不過我還是要跟環境部加油啦環境部表現非常好"},{"start":7298.185,"end":7317.796,"text":"承諾的事情都有做到只是時間晚一點謝謝好 我現在問你兩個嚴肅的問題第一個就是是不是以後的光電板都要做環評因為你講的都一下子有一下子沒有一下子有幾公頃你現在在這邊講清楚的表達"},{"start":7319.44,"end":7346.229,"text":"所有的光電板是不是都要做環評好 謝謝委員因為我們過去其實1月的時候也謝謝委員給我們很多的建議所以我們1月的時候有發布的確有加研然後也有在敏感區域或是山坡地都有一個規範所以委員關心到屏東那個案場其實我相信未來不可能會發生而且屏東三寶其實我們也把它退回去了所以其實我們這個的態度是堅定的但是因為我如果水面型的話"},{"start":7346.829,"end":7368.78,"text":"它目前全世界目前還沒有那所以我們現在的確是在研議當中那我希望快的話在我們的細則在年底或是明年初如果研議的出來的話我們就會希望能夠在水面型的光電有一個環評的機制好 那第二個問題就是剛剛你講的水庫 水池 滯洪池"},{"start":7370.487,"end":7392.239,"text":"這些上面要擺光電板這次在嘉義就是發生這就是滯洪池六十幾公頃我們都去看了 看了兩次了那到處的水池都要滯洪池都要再放光電板我們屏東那個農科研區有三個滯洪池現在有其中一個也要開始了那雞屎頭都流進去了 都流進去了"},{"start":7396.773,"end":7420.535,"text":"滯洪池的問題那麼多要做環評 要不要做環評 剛剛講什麼時候可以給我們一個期程確定要不要環評包委 滯洪池是屬於水面型的光電我們是希望說我們現在十月底有一個類似徵求意見然後我們希望未來兩個月年底之前希望有一個"},{"start":7421.215,"end":7449.571,"text":"到底多少的數字需要環比的數字出來我是希望年底前或是到一月的時候可以正式來公告不過因為委員那個像嘉義的案例因為我們有觀察過有些的滯洪池沒事有些滯洪池有事那其實跟他的這個強度是有關係的所以未來呢因為經濟部他們也有承諾說在一些規範上面施工的部分都要有一些規範他們要有已經有去檢查過了所以我相信這個兩個方式來進行應該有辦法避免像這樣的問題"},{"start":7450.672,"end":7469.845,"text":"自己的我看是 因為剛好風靠啦風太大 風靠這樣漏進來所以一片這樣 所以都騷擾起來你又沒辦法做什麼風洞實驗室 你又沒辦法你看風水而已 你又不是冰凍人像我也要看 看烏鷹 看墳墓就對了我們現在改革後 都要看"},{"start":7471.726,"end":7485.533,"text":"塞巴蝴蝶要來 海蝶來的魂這要喝大水的自己要練一生武功不然的話 你養魚 魚就死了所以這個風水啦 這個環評的魄魂是不是要加強 你要觀青脈道好 你要看天象這樣 霍長這題我答不"},{"start":7496.599,"end":7502.811,"text":"現在其實如果環評的程序連這個就要把它考慮在裡面現在委員關心的就是多大面積這個我們會來研議對啦 你現在"},{"start":7507.372,"end":7533.44,"text":"因為如果我看起來 風太大那你的自動池上面的 實際上脆弱啦真的是蠻脆弱的好 那我現在問第二個問題就是我們現在很多這些光電公司上上個禮拜在內埔說在公墓上面要蓋太陽能板那在蘇明會的時候 那個船長要去修葡邊渡"},{"start":7535.581,"end":7553.559,"text":"加這個我還不夠現場就變料了 如果不夠就再削四方的那現在一個問題就是我們這些能源業者在辦說明會他又去邀請一些社區環保團體啦或者是社區活動的啦"},{"start":7557.304,"end":7575.155,"text":"協會藉由這個肥料 帶人來聽聽這是好事啦但是就像剛才說的船長要去修復如果你說你要協會現在這個環保業者或是現在這裡的風 能源業者去幫你贊助贊助就讓他們去辦活動 辦路由現在後來還有意見來說說它是環保蟑螂"},{"start":7585.322,"end":7602.877,"text":"就用情緒勒索 我來贊助的也有人去用移送法辦我要請問法務部你們這個界定的標準是什麼那這些環保業者 那這些能源業者我在想是套養殺我們法務部你的立場是怎樣"},{"start":7610.041,"end":7623.162,"text":"這個有關於環境評估的話這個應該我們尊重這個環境部他們的專業評他們的專業判斷啦那至於說現場的秩序的話我想這個是個案我們就"},{"start":7623.96,"end":7652.127,"text":"我不是作案喔 大家都虛烈烈喔紡遼鄉那邊有一個屏南工業區因為東海村最大公生日 說是幾十九年去把這些青熊 去把牠們疊成金我們小時候叫做疊成金疊疊疊青熊如果不送 就要去補不說你在敲詐勒索什麼那這些環保業者如出一策 還有"},{"start":7652.915,"end":7680.535,"text":"我們的民意代表 你要好好回答喔這大家都在看喔民意代表說萬一選舉的時候要贊助他們都是正常的喔 公開說 都抱感染力的現在把他們站出來贊助我們立法會議員也都這樣對著所以很困擾 像中情形反倒回來說他是環保長 現在是環保黑道"},{"start":7682.481,"end":7691.731,"text":"华府的观念的想法是怎么样明确的跟我们讲一下没有办法明确至少要给我们开示一下大家都很困掉了"},{"start":7692.92,"end":7718.902,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢 那就剛才我想那個部長也一直提到我們有一個跨部會平台那這個平台是在行政院政務委員林明熙政務委員他這邊來做一個協調那就剛才委員垂詢到的有關於政治獻金的部分的話我想如果依照政治獻金法相關的規定的話"},{"start":7721.389,"end":7730.911,"text":"應該就是我們法務部這邊也尊重尊重沒有啦 這位民運代表說話總是有白痴啦"},{"start":7732.089,"end":7749.719,"text":"地理就是說這個社團 這個廟宇 會怕啦因為正經也有人往上 上場以後再去換衣 換衣以後一心二心沒辦法回來但是會怕很受傷啦所以不得不說 像這種能源業者 他這樣做 他是"},{"start":7753.24,"end":7778.799,"text":"說到拍電影以前 兩個都兩張雙咖啡啦對阿 對阿 把你 把你 把你贊助贊助這樣如果 你如果要怎樣就說你這這這就要收了所以這是真 真困擾的事情啦所以這個部長你你如果我有做環評就沒有這些事了啦你每一件都給他做環評就沒有這些事了啦一公頃 兩公頃他還好每天這樣蠶食精吞這樣你敢不敢看他啦所以你的 好啦"},{"start":7783.886,"end":7797.756,"text":"其實報告委員 環評沒有辦法完全禁止啦這是社會的問題這種環保蟑螂或是這種說敗類其實我們現在濫肯濫法的多的是所以我們現在很積極的沒有顏色如果有犯罪我們有證據就會抓"},{"start":7798.857,"end":7826.727,"text":"然後另外一個是說我們跟法務部有一個平台是林明熙政委在處理的所以我們現在針對這個是很清楚的界線所以委員我們可以如果委員有具體的案例歡迎給我們我們會絕對請我們檢警環調的平台來法辦明天總執行再好好的請教你跟院長 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員發言現在先做一下宣告"},{"start":7828.919,"end":7836.743,"text":"待會黃秀芳委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘然後現在請邱振軍委員發言主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":7852.151,"end":7867.709,"text":"邱委員好 部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的"},{"start":7868.349,"end":7892.57,"text":"我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快啦因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面"},{"start":7894.351,"end":7922.262,"text":"對 等於是會欠缺的一些彈性啦你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳捕捉跟封存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去定的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎"},{"start":7924.703,"end":7939.249,"text":"報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以"},{"start":7939.469,"end":7957.731,"text":"我知道啦能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊"},{"start":7959.22,"end":7986.813,"text":"也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性"},{"start":7988.053,"end":8010.295,"text":"如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎對 包委員因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛對 對不對但是因為"},{"start":8012.857,"end":8030.718,"text":"也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要這樣修"},{"start":8034.741,"end":8048.197,"text":"你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應"},{"start":8051.397,"end":8067.938,"text":"沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高"},{"start":8068.559,"end":8090.576,"text":"而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊"},{"start":8091.711,"end":8106.577,"text":"當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的"},{"start":8114.679,"end":8126.629,"text":"現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要"},{"start":8128.028,"end":8153.854,"text":"包委我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的"},{"start":8155.302,"end":8172.313,"text":"好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光電納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說"},{"start":8183.486,"end":8200.938,"text":"這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 鮑委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子"},{"start":8204.758,"end":8233.551,"text":"那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼火星級並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確他是在一個儀器的偵測的一個但是他是他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那我們自己我們同仁對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長"},{"start":8234.921,"end":8260.01,"text":"跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法"},{"start":8262.011,"end":8282.053,"text":"就是假西蘭的一個比射法那這個是目前是我們的國防研所公告的一個標準檢驗方法也是國際上所通用的因離子界面活性劑的一個檢驗方法所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是好那我再問你"},{"start":8283.252,"end":8305.561,"text":"我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對 報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了 今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的項限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個"},{"start":8313.837,"end":8329.264,"text":"太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚"},{"start":8331.534,"end":8356.439,"text":"報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦"},{"start":8357.783,"end":8381.318,"text":"事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他這個不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查"},{"start":8383.408,"end":8401.986,"text":"對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電共生都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定"},{"start":8404.975,"end":8430.547,"text":"我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行"},{"start":8432.268,"end":8452.61,"text":"不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入"},{"start":8453.148,"end":8469.7,"text":"他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣的嗎沒有 不行他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照電業的執照的執照拿到執照之後我們還管不管"},{"start":8470.576,"end":8499.173,"text":"當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好"},{"start":8502.574,"end":8504.396,"text":"謝謝 謝謝邱正軍委員發言 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長 請彭部長"},{"start":8520.424,"end":8545.781,"text":"王國元好 部長好 部長我今天想要針對就是這個廢棄物亂到的這種狀況來跟部長做一個討論就以彰化這邊為例彰化這個北有大渡溪南有濁水溪那中間還有貫穿著舊濁水溪然後還有楊子戳溪原大排那其實這幾個這個大排或者是"},{"start":8546.702,"end":8560.415,"text":"這個溪有的都會比較偏就是會比較偏人煙比較稀少的地方可能一般的人可能不會到達的一個地方然後有一些地方是這樣子那這些地方也會成為這個廢棄物亂到的一個很"},{"start":8563.976,"end":8591.384,"text":"可能是廢棄物亂到的一個天堂所以我們一直希望就是說這些可能比較偏遠的比較人煙比較稀少的這些地方也許可能要用一些比較科技的方式來執法那不可能說都靠著什麼這個河川的巡守員去巡邏我覺得這個可能會有一些困難所以在這幾年當中我們看到就是除了這個"},{"start":8592.684,"end":8610.761,"text":"第三河川分署第四河川分署还有彰化县政府以及农田农水署其实他们都有这个巡守队那针对这些河去做一些巡逻那也看到就是说在这"},{"start":8611.441,"end":8630.836,"text":"這一年當中這幾次當中就也出動了1800次的巡查也清除總共27公噸的垃圾這些地點有的甚至除了垃圾一般的家務垃圾之外還有一般的大型家具的垃圾"},{"start":8631.897,"end":8648.474,"text":"所以我在這邊想要請教部長就是說除了彰化有這樣的一個狀況我相信全國各地比較人煙稀少的不論是河川或者是山谷也是很多這樣的重狀況也真的非常多"},{"start":8649.995,"end":8674.042,"text":"一般的民眾不太會到達或者是人煙比較稀少的地方有時候山谷就是一堆垃圾所以我想請教部長針對這樣的一個狀況我們有沒有可能在這些可能垃圾可能會被亂倒垃圾的這些地點可能加裝監視器或者是用什麼樣的方式能夠杜絕亂倒垃圾或者是亂丟垃圾"},{"start":8676.061,"end":8695.627,"text":"包委我們這邊是處理是比較大型的例如說營建剩餘土石房跟營建廢棄物那個是大型需要一個車輛那我們現在是有一套的一個方案包含了監視器各方面然後用GPS不過委員你這邊這個是稍微小一點點我們會跟彰化環保局一起來討論"},{"start":8696.827,"end":8725.316,"text":"我也希望就是說不論是我們的這個營建廢棄物或者是其他的這種垃圾可能是這種失業廢棄物或者是那種工廠生產出來的垃圾其實這個環保環境部這邊管那其實有很多像這種大型垃圾在地方也是層出不窮所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府應該要去想一套方法可能更容易來稽查或者是更容易把這些"},{"start":8726.697,"end":8744.493,"text":"熱點可能這個容易被亂倒垃圾的這些熱點可能要加裝一些這個監視器或是什麼樣的方式能夠來杜絕另外我想請教就是說部長在也是在彰化地區在前陣子就是"},{"start":8745.594,"end":8762.73,"text":"有人就是把這個營建的廢棄物就丟到我們彰化的這個惡靈中科園區它是一個科學園區然後垃圾就直接這個營建的這個廢棄物就直接倒到那邊去所以我希望就是說其實"},{"start":8764.293,"end":8792.935,"text":"雖然我們在那個載運的這個貨車或者是那種卡車可能你們都有GPS那可能就是說上有上有政策下有對策也許他是用什麼樣的方式把這些這個營建廢棄物亂丟亂盜所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分我覺得應該還要有更精進的方式來杜絕另外他這個犯罪的手法他是用偽造土石方的證明"},{"start":8794.115,"end":8818.745,"text":"偽造土石方的證明然後去取得這個可能它裡面有管理員是因為這樣然後取得信任然後就進去裡面亂盜這個也是一個方式所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分未來如果還有亂盜這個營建廢棄物或者是一般的失業廢棄物或者是一般的這種垃圾我覺得應該要有這個嚴懲或者是重罰"},{"start":8820.833,"end":8846.209,"text":"對 謝謝委員這個案例我們有注意到那現在就是委員你說的嚴懲重罰那我們現在是未來會有一個智慧維理的計畫等於是除了GPS之外車牌在每個路口我們都可以掌握這個訊息所以我們會運用AI的方法來解決那事實上這個的問題在於是說如何廢棄物去化那現在我們的確我們跟內政部合作也在盤點這樣的一個機會因為這個其實"},{"start":8849.111,"end":8868.945,"text":"這個是台灣幾十年來都從來沒有人去解決這個問題但是我們也重視到這再不處理已經會變成是一個很大的環境的一個議題所以我們有認真有面對來處理這個事但是我也必須跟委員坦承這個道高一尺 魔高一丈他們在進化當中在進化當中 那你們應該要"},{"start":8869.966,"end":8890.262,"text":"比他更早一步去想到要怎麼去解決這個問題比如說像有一些地方不是只有高雄有台北也有挖下去全部都是廢棄物的也都有所以我們現在的確是更重視到這一個環節所以委員再給我們一點時間其實我們已經有一個跨部會的平台就是來處理這個事情"},{"start":8891.002,"end":8918.796,"text":"這一件其實因為是即時有去抓到才不會造成可能也許下一手的廠商他如果要進駐之後他一挖可能底下全部都是這種營建廢棄物這個廠商他會很倒楣要去清理這些廢棄物所以我覺得就是說應該我們還要有一個比較更精進的方式怎麼樣去解決這些營建廢棄物剛剛部長有特別提到就是我們未來會有一個"},{"start":8919.496,"end":8941.548,"text":"現在已經有跨部會跨部會然後我們在修改法令廢清法自在法都要修正然後這個所謂的廢棄物的量能可以去化甚至有人可以把這個所謂的這個營建廢棄物或土石方鼓勵成立這個土地銀行等等土質銀行等等能夠做好一個內循環來做處理就是說不要"},{"start":8942.228,"end":8962.06,"text":"什麼東西都是廢棄物來看待那現在的情況像這個就是倒一車可能就一兩萬塊所以一頓就一兩萬塊有利可圖所以大家都喜歡幹這種事情貪小便宜那我們就希望可以改變這個生態部長接下來我想請教就是說因為彰化這邊也有很多就是農業的廢棄物"},{"start":8964.641,"end":8978.554,"text":"除了農模之外也有一些葡萄藤或者是一些樹枝這種都算是比較農業的廢棄物當然就是說我們怎麼樣讓這些我們認為就是說可以再利用的"},{"start":8980.776,"end":8998.893,"text":"譬如說有的樹枝它就可以成為木炭或者是它還可以成為農地上有用的肥料類似這樣的一個狀況我希望就是說未來可能還要再加強力道怎麼樣讓這些農業的廢棄物能夠"},{"start":9003.157,"end":9020.436,"text":"可以推廣然後可以再利用我覺得這應該還要再去努力因為尤其是農磨的這個部分因為我也提到好幾次因為農磨確實是一個非常麻煩的一件事情你用完之後上面的土其實你要把它清掉其實還是有困難"},{"start":9021.317,"end":9036.156,"text":"那這個要怎麼樣去解決那另外就是說我們現在碰到這個花蓮光復香這些泥土沙可能混合著一些廢棄物那你怎麼樣我覺得這個土也許"},{"start":9037.558,"end":9056.374,"text":"感覺好像是還蠻肥沃的這種土那這種土是不是未來還可以怎麼樣再利用那就是說這些土它裡面夾雜的一些垃圾你怎麼樣去把它清掉然後讓它變成真的就是土或者是泥或者是沙所以我不知道說部長針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理"},{"start":9057.254,"end":9076.541,"text":"謝謝委員 委員提到這個彰化因為彰化除了這個葡萄藤之外還有這種稻米的稻梗其實就我們來看的話應該都是資源物所以我記得我也跟農業部陳部長有談過說我們是不是有一些輔導一些榻榻米的公司因為榻榻米用稻梗來做其實是蠻合適的"},{"start":9078.021,"end":9101.67,"text":"把這個規模經濟把它做出來的確我們是在想這個事委員提到葡萄藤是蠻好的我們會加大力道也希望能夠去了解說它可以怎麼樣再利用這個就是循環經濟至於花蓮那個部分其實它的現在最新的資料是30萬噸我們預估會到100萬噸目前的確是要把它分類然後進行各種各樣的一個運用"},{"start":9102.67,"end":9117.52,"text":"現在是正在進行當中因為我們現在還在救災所以我們現在有一套想法希望能夠把它做資源再分類不過這個真的也要一些特別的預算來去做處理我們希望明年可以來開始進行這個工作我們也會全力支持就是說"},{"start":9118.4,"end":9143.376,"text":"未來這個真的也是一個蠻大的工程我看起來應該是一個蠻大的工程所以我們希望就是說環境部真的在這個環境上面可能還要再加強力道就是說尤其是對於這個農業上的這些我們認為可以再利用的可以拜託再跟農業部這邊再合作然後再加強力道去宣傳好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":9146.556,"end":9150.6,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 彭部長詢問現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9765.558,"end":9771.86,"text":"現在繼續開會請王育民委員質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長"},{"start":9794.044,"end":9819.78,"text":"部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板"},{"start":9820.24,"end":9836.038,"text":"需不需要使用清潔劑清潔 就你掌握的 從環境部知道的就我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有 我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長"},{"start":9838.834,"end":9858.355,"text":"市長你這個經濟部有發文說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢網路上面現在有一個被截圖的就是說這個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過"},{"start":9860.257,"end":9880.337,"text":"他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅爆效果比粉紅爆好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文"},{"start":9882.942,"end":9911.611,"text":"報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息 我必須要去做釐清那次長你今天第一次看到我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好不可以任意發這樣的文"},{"start":9912.651,"end":9919.056,"text":"我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為呢這一則文呢這個看起來這一位人士呢他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下"},{"start":9939.671,"end":9955.251,"text":"如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑他們可不可以這樣子販售"},{"start":9956.272,"end":9976.559,"text":"如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品"},{"start":9978.842,"end":10004.625,"text":"這個我們來了解所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢"},{"start":10005.285,"end":10029.817,"text":"路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以"},{"start":10030.219,"end":10046.944,"text":"我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止"},{"start":10048.564,"end":10069.301,"text":"路上行的部分我去實在了解一下再跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長署長來"},{"start":10074.451,"end":10100.511,"text":"你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗他在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的但是如果他是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們允許他用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止他用大規模"},{"start":10100.731,"end":10117.714,"text":"你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電"},{"start":10119.11,"end":10140.925,"text":"其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解"},{"start":10142.466,"end":10169.585,"text":"我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他還沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地"},{"start":10170.725,"end":10190.211,"text":"這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息"},{"start":10190.771,"end":10209.425,"text":"我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個就是再用額外的這個洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分"},{"start":10214.325,"end":10233.801,"text":"這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作的狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止"},{"start":10234.802,"end":10262.43,"text":"還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部要訂嗎"},{"start":10264.884,"end":10287.445,"text":"我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用"},{"start":10289.238,"end":10308.665,"text":"水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥屎還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的"},{"start":10309.113,"end":10336.68,"text":"所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的"},{"start":10337.752,"end":10361.415,"text":"這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化的東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以"},{"start":10362.276,"end":10384.281,"text":"不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來"},{"start":10385.118,"end":10400.916,"text":"我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的"},{"start":10403.154,"end":10424.545,"text":"好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分在嘉義縣呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那嘉義縣環保局長說電子圍籬的效果有限"},{"start":10425.306,"end":10444.708,"text":"業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍籬並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍籬"},{"start":10445.669,"end":10466.77,"text":"而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子維理效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善"},{"start":10468.071,"end":10494.23,"text":"報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年"},{"start":10495.871,"end":10518.341,"text":"對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎"},{"start":10519.581,"end":10536.116,"text":"這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決"},{"start":10538.135,"end":10560.311,"text":"報告委員 那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會採取例行的措施對啊 那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決"},{"start":10562.219,"end":10583.814,"text":"這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有"},{"start":10585.015,"end":10602.75,"text":"這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言"},{"start":10612.335,"end":10614.877,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席請彭部長好請彭部長趙偉好部長好部長我第一個想要請教一下目前全國實施這個垃圾不落地並由垃圾車在定時定點清運那有些縣市可能還要使用專用垃圾袋然後要仔細分類"},{"start":10641.817,"end":10662.205,"text":"那通常民眾在等垃圾車的過程當中會預先把垃圾拿出來嘛攔在路上嘛然後放在這個勤運區集中並且暫置對不對那這部分沒有違法對吧是對那但是呢如果是在非垃圾收集的時段這樣子亂丟是不是就是違法的行為是是嗎是好很好謝謝部長喔"},{"start":10662.705,"end":10681.63,"text":"那部長簡單來說垃圾車清運停靠區是不是不能放垃圾而是只能夠暫置而且要遵守相關的程序規定反之就是違法對嗎對對好那我想要另外想要請教一下那這個第一個保護區可以到費力清嗎"},{"start":10684.524,"end":10708.417,"text":"呃 基本上是不行的基本上是不行的好 不行嘛 對不對好 那同樣我們就想要針對這樣子的廢棄物的處理邏輯喔我想要請問一下在高雄大平頂的垃圾事件高雄市政府說根據法規他的法規啊 他自己的解釋啊他說的確能夠放置相關廢棄物但是因為這個大平頂地區它是個保護區喔"},{"start":10709.517,"end":10737.307,"text":"但是他說可以放可是沒有申請那主管機關無法監督指導清運跟站制的手續這個在程序上是違法的事實那高雄市府自己也有開罰那這樣算不算是亂到報告委員他其實因為這個是屬於地方的事務啦那他是允許他這個這家公司來執行這個地方政府的一個公共工程所以他特別允許他有一個站制的地方沒有但是他沒有申請"},{"start":10738.487,"end":10766.326,"text":"他是說他的地方法規他說他合法這個地方在法規上有去做這件事有這個可以去申請的這個狀況可是他沒有申請那請問就像剛剛倒垃圾的概念一樣他有這個法規但是他沒有申請這樣算不算是這樣算是合法理論上是不可以的但是這個應該是他跟水利因為他是水利局的工程然後他是接受水利局的委託處理這個事情所以我相信他們可能有一些契約在做這個事"},{"start":10766.786,"end":10790.868,"text":"你相信他們可是你並不曉得我不知道因為這地方的事好所以我想要問一下因為在保護區到廢棄廢栗清沒有違法只是沒有申請這是他們的說法那所以我也去查了一下他高雄市政府這個水利局所說的高雄市府認定用途的符合他說這個都市計劃法高雄市的施行細則附表中有廢污水處理設施但是這個細則的附表中"},{"start":10791.588,"end":10819.826,"text":"是說保護區之土地及建築物以供國土保安水土保持維護天然資源與環境保護的生態功能為主除了幼立的規定之外不得為其他使用而此列又是這個所謂的公用事業設施而不是公用事業設施所產出的垃圾所以我在想它是不是在這個法規上是解釋是有問題不符合程序的那這個部分因為它有可能是會變成一個通案"},{"start":10820.706,"end":10849.375,"text":"那這個部分我想要請問一下部長你的態度是什麼你們有什麼事情可以去協助的報告委員這個是屬於都計法啦這是市政府他們自己訂的都計法並不是我們環境部主管的法規啦那這個當然是如果從常理來看的話保護區的土地的確是不適宜去倒這樣的一個廢棄物啦對 所以對 部長的態度就是保護區的土地不適合去倒這樣的廢棄物嘛而且他沒有合法的申請所以他也不能夠叫做暫置嘛等於是違法亂倒嘛"},{"start":10850.718,"end":10867.584,"text":"所以這個部分我想要請教這個是一個事件可是這事件的背後跟我們今天很多委員討論到的在處理整個不管是建築廢棄物或是各種廢棄物的流程上面我看這樣環境部好像會很難管理部長你有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":10868.024,"end":10896.701,"text":"報告委員因為有些是其實這個事情是地方自治啦那我們也必須尊重地方單位那尤其這個的施工是當地的水利局那那個土地也是主管機關也是水利局的所以我相信他們可能在某方面可能是簡化了一些形式啦那我們會去了解這個到底怎麼走但是基本上如果是一個部長你可不可以去了解這個事件因為它不見得只是一個地方自治的問題因為它有關到整個廢棄屋清運這跟你的主要的業務有關係喔"},{"start":10897.802,"end":10925.635,"text":"而且他們如果說這樣子譬如說美濃大峽谷啊這種挖一挖然後他最後可以放置的這些利益牽扯到的可能都是幾十億啊部長這個是會有問題而且對環境生態有很大的破壞這等一下跟這個光電板也有關係喔所以部長這部分你你可以做什麼調查或者是去了解他的委員這個我們再詳細的去了解啦因為這個畢竟是地方政府的工作但是我們會去了解說他到底在這個流程上面有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":10926.235,"end":10941.46,"text":"那部長您可以給本席什麼時候可以給一個了解後的報告嗎就是說他們這個到底發生什麼事而且他們還有沒有其他類似的地方是沒有申請然後亂佔志的那你未來要怎麼精進因為不見得只有高雄市政府啊各個地方南部現在很多地方可能都發生這種事情"},{"start":10942.025,"end":10967.131,"text":"好我們一個月的時間好不好好那拜託部長一個月的時間喔謝謝好那再來我想要再進一步去問喔就是剛剛其實有幾個委員包含剛剛陳金輝委員有提到有關於嘉義這次的瘋呆剛剛所謂的光電板序號的問題那部長你當時其實有承諾到他九月中給但是到現在沒辦法給那剛剛經濟部能源署也有說這個量體很大很複雜啦"},{"start":10968.291,"end":10989.45,"text":"所以本席就想要追問其實我覺得這是一個很大的問題而且應該要精進的問題這是不是在流程上面會有問題因為這就跟當初在討論花蓮的災後的這個重建或者是災後的廢棄物清理清運或者是回收這是行這個流程上面是不是有疏失你們要怎麼精進因為當已經發生的時候"},{"start":10991.932,"end":11016.48,"text":"然後你沒有辦法馬上的去核對或者是他在清運的時候你有沒有要求業者怎麼樣給這些序號然後你的資料庫跟他報回來序號這不是現在的電腦或系統輸入進去他就可以去說有哪一些遺失有哪一些沒有偵測到這照理說應該是很快的事情那你們在流程上面有沒有去設計這個是部分如果部長不能回答你可以請經濟部的代表"},{"start":11017.849,"end":11039.509,"text":"報告委員 因為這個其實我們那個序號訂的目的是當時是為了淘汰這個廚藝的這個光電板所以有做一個序號因為這個有錢的對價關係那這次呢為什麼比較慢因為它是大量的因為被風災損毀所以它等於是要把它去化掉所以這個的數字上我的確也在追這個數字但是其實這個十幾萬片有一點困難"},{"start":11040.39,"end":11066.852,"text":"部長所以我這是要講的好你也先回答因為我一直在強調我覺得這是一個工作流程上的問題因為就剛才講十幾萬片因為我們有那個業者他每一片的那個帳單但是業者他現在要去清點毀損的有12萬片左右但是他總共的可能超過幾十萬片那有一部分毀損嘛所以他要去核對就是說到底是"},{"start":11067.552,"end":11087.269,"text":"少了哪几片所以这个数量非常大那我们有叫他清点出来因为未来他要做如果他要复原的话我们要清楚知道他是哪几片在做复原所以我认为你们这个要求和行政程序上面是不是有精进的地方你们要求说他现在去挖"},{"start":11088.03,"end":11103.4,"text":"挖的時候報回來的每一片都有序號他都要登記起來然後每一段時間他就是必須回報到你這裡來那你們要求的時間序有沒有問題因為這也會牽扯到剛剛有也有那個委員有給照片嘛"},{"start":11104.02,"end":11122.407,"text":"圖片說你們說清理完99%那現在有12萬多在暫置然後但是他們後來又有記者去報再去挖土地之後發現還有破損的在土地裡面所以這又在追究一件事喔你放了太久到底是誰去把它挖然後再把它埋進去的這就是現在造成的問題嘛是不是"},{"start":11123.092,"end":11150.838,"text":"是但現在陸續有一些零星的可能是當時被這個泥土掩埋那下雨之後沖刷又出來或是有一些他可能當時壓在下面那現在脫離飄出來就零星的是有啦那業者我們也去在這兩天我們也再去看業者這個好幾百卡車都送出去他不會剩下一兩個可能他做的沒有落實那這一方面環境部有去開罰那我們也會叫業者再來做盤點"},{"start":11151.698,"end":11178.364,"text":"我建議你們應該要一起限制一個這樣子的平台這個包含到兩個很重要的因素就是所謂公開透明網路上譬如說你有這些序號在這裡這些序號它現在怎麼跑它現在跑去哪裡了被處理的怎麼樣是還在發電中還是什麼的好那這個應該要公開透明的去展現出來之外因為它有兩個用處第一個用處等一下也會討論到但是我們先針對這件事情就是發生了災後的時候的廢棄物清理的狀況"},{"start":11179.204,"end":11205.139,"text":"因為這個你後續要再來追我跟你講你一定很難追你一定追不到所以這代表現在這個流程沒有及時公開透明譬如說業者一回報你是不是就應該要有一個這個資料庫就知道說現在回報的狀況是不是這樣子好然後包含他案場整個破壞這個案場到底是幾號到幾號的序號你這樣子才有辦法管理嘛現在看起來這個部分是沒有辦法是不是可以請部長和次長回去有一個精進作為的報告也是一樣一個月好不好"},{"start":11205.879,"end":11223.911,"text":"我覺得這個廢棄物的部分也是一個後續的問題可以嗎可以然後再接下來進一步一個月兩個這個部會跨部會去協調那再來就是下一個問題最後一個問題我會盡速就是剛剛有討論到這個現在光電板有這個所謂的回收基金對不對"},{"start":11225.083,"end":11241.508,"text":"那現在的說預計2045年可以收到173億看似是一大筆數一大筆錢啊好可是遠遠不足說腰之硬的預估的成本是397億喔對不對現在等於是還差了這麼還差那個簡報"},{"start":11245.365,"end":11268.511,"text":"還差了很多就是現在說預估可以收到173億然後但是不足以支應的成本是397億所以中間換句話說差了220幾億啊那我就想本身就想問這個部分怎麼辦因為他的確當然現在還沒有到要大量除役的時候可是其實也快了啊我們都已經看到這些問題跟剛剛所謂的後續的怎麼處置那這個價這個錢怎麼怎麼處理"},{"start":11271.19,"end":11291.338,"text":"這個報告因為他當時我們是每K瓦收1000元是依照當時的價格去計算所以現在就是等於是擺明的收不夠嘛然後還有包含2021年到2023年的回收清除處理費有四成沒有繳納我就想問說那到時候真的碰到大量廚藝的時候我們的這些錢或是不夠用的那怎麼處理會不會變成是我們要另外拿納稅人的錢來做這個回收"},{"start":11294.975,"end":11319.803,"text":"不會 這還是業者要負責但是你到時候追不到呢會滾動來檢討因為他要20年的期間嘛那現在這些業者都在那另外有一部分的人沒有繳納這個我們都去吹繳他如果不繳的話我們就會移送法院去那所以這個機制是現在不繳有罰則嗎 罰款嗎吹繳 我們是有吹繳而已 但不用 他不能罰就是你只能跟人家說趕快繳錢 趕快繳錢然後你不能罰他嗎"},{"start":11322.523,"end":11343.937,"text":"因為這個是所謂公的義務如果他不繳的話我們會移送那個法院去查封他的財產或是未來要扣繳他的電費那部長你可不可以回答一下剛剛有說這個錢不夠到時候怎麼辦這個是需要一些財務模型的計算跟未來的量的推估然後因為現在的確我知道處理費用其實是比這個1000塊高很多"},{"start":11344.477,"end":11369.155,"text":"所以我們現在其實第一個是鼓勵市場上能夠更多人出來然後得到一個價量平衡當然我必須坦承說這個模型可能要再算一次那怎麼算 什麼時候可以算出來這個要我們再來協商最近一批大量廚藝是什麼時候2029到2031年左右2029到2031其實也快了2029也快了而且那一批應該也不少而且那個時候還是更早的技術"},{"start":11370.175,"end":11386.096,"text":"不多 那個時候還好就是早期的 因為那個大概從馬前總統的時候就開始有大量的在建了所以那一期大概都沒有叫所以那個也準備要除役啦馬上就會遇到這個問題對 未來再幾年那這個部分是不是那你們打算怎麼去做計算"},{"start":11386.972,"end":11410.206,"text":"基本上這個我們現在正在討論這個話題然後甚至說當然原來的想法是有一個基金是大水庫的理論但是未來呢我相信這個價量之間理論上是可以供需平衡的啦但是我們必須要再算一次好本席今天已經點出幾個未來可能會發生的問題請環境部和經濟部應該要就此有精進作為好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員的資訊"},{"start":11416.638,"end":11417.243,"text":"好接下來我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11449.84,"end":11456.482,"text":"謝謝主席請經濟部的賴次長跟環境部的彭部長好請賴次長彭部長委員好處長我看你經濟部從8號發了新聞稿16號又發了這個FBR你們都在強調說嘉義會計的這個光電板已經完全"},{"start":11476.351,"end":11482.896,"text":"清完了 不管是志鵬池不管是贊助區說不要再以訛傳訛確定都清完了嗎"},{"start":11484.17,"end":11512.047,"text":"現在還有部分在這個合法的戰事區域裡面那其他的部分都在戰事區你看你自己的圖戰事區10月11號以前不是全部都清完了嗎那個是在 這個是你那個是在打自己的新聞稿打點自己的新聞稿那個是在這個四個場區當時災後的緊急的這個戰事的一個區域你這個是16號剛剛發的耶距離現在才五天耶是啊"},{"start":11513.499,"end":11532.9,"text":"所以來來我們先確認一下新聞櫃下何鮑魚行政暗藏志隆市本身是7月24號就完成了對不對行政是7月30號嘛這個沒錯對不對這沒錯嘛戰事區照你的新聞稿跟你剛剛的FB還叫民眾不要什麼以兒傳兒來看這個"},{"start":11536.947,"end":11565.817,"text":"來來看一下所以新聞是10月11號以前清除貴社這都是10月11號以前清完嘛對不對特別下去看來這是嘉義新聞志鴻池的站置區你看房部蓋的那個你從外面都看得到那個裡面裝的是什麼"},{"start":11567.867,"end":11586.835,"text":"破碎的光電板跟角碎的這個湖板市長 你們為什麼急著8號要發新聞稿 16號要發這上面這麼大堆 一大堆這還不是剛剛環境部在講什麼那個什麼零星的那麼一大堆"},{"start":11591.792,"end":11607.664,"text":"市長 來來 我再進一步給你看 來來這個是旁邊 旁邊的贊助區閃落的 你看 左邊這個圖中間那個是破碎的光電板你先看 先看 來來收聽一下"},{"start":11615.734,"end":11641.234,"text":"第一個我們剛剛說明了丹納斯的時候我們有一個緊急的這個戰事區包括這個水面的太陽能光電板這個確實都已經我們都已經有清完了那至於你剛剛這個畫面包括後面那張畫面這個顯示的應該是委員最近有去看的那這個部分我們還是會定期去看若是還有沒有沒有清理的話"},{"start":11641.934,"end":11660.659,"text":"那會依照相關的這個規定來處理發新聞稿 發新聞稿的時候你全部都簽完了那我們確實在公衛區旁邊的那個戰事區當時協調完了 那個都簽完了來來來 我剛才那個問你的來回到那個新聞櫃下 這你們 我要幫你整理耶你8號發一個新聞稿 16號發一個LV"},{"start":11667.265,"end":11695.607,"text":"是我們夜上 是我們眼睛的夜上太重 看不到這也是我們看到這個戰事區我們當時協調的是戰事區我們全部都清完了 這個照片在這裡啊所以我找的那些東西那個是 林興說是喔 跑出來的話我們就繼續去巡檢一大堆在那裡 給我林興喔來 我再給你看 不是只有那一大堆來 市長你看 旁邊來旁邊 上一張"},{"start":11697.519,"end":11725.004,"text":"這個一樣是10月18號的新聞耶就剛剛那個一大坨的旁邊地面上是什麼左邊這一張破碎的光電板它的右上角這個是破碎的這個湖板下面還有金屬的這個擴建耶中間這張是什麼破碎的光電板很嚴重的現在環境部長在那連那個廢棄的電線都還在那裡右邊是什麼剛剛看那個亮亮的"},{"start":11726.388,"end":11744.135,"text":"破碎的光電板經濟部到底是怎樣是眼睛有業障一般人都看得到你們看不到還是你們變成一個造謠部並沒有沒有 為什麼直接為什麼我們今天不是只有看得到全台灣民眾都看得到還是你們看不到你們還要發個新聞稿說是民眾在造謠"},{"start":11745.393,"end":11773.779,"text":"並沒有這個事情第一個我們除了全部的這個戰事區這個部分我們在災後協調戰事區我們清完了之後我們還定期派人去比如說像這兩天我們還派著同仁然後去現場去看因為有一些的地方他可能被泥土所遮蓋的慢慢的有出來的那當然我們這個會要求他去處理不是你說的那個什麼被泥土掩蓋嘛對不對你說你們都還找人下去看那你們怎麼可以在8號跟16號"},{"start":11775.441,"end":11800.078,"text":"你們不只是說已經清完欸你們還說民眾不要再以而傳而欸你們是要反駁聯合報的報導 反駁立法院的質詢欸你們這樣不是在自打嘴巴嗎不是 那張照片的出處我們會去了解一下那張照片的出處我們絕對會去了解來來 我再給你看剛講的是 戰事區對不對你說戰事區把制洪池都處理好了 來 我給你看這是新聞的制洪池欸電話下一下 請請測測"},{"start":11806.257,"end":11818.113,"text":"那个是什么 像小船是不是几十艘的小船 现在在志鸿池的上面这个 我的是怎么会看不到 你还找人下去看"},{"start":11819.196,"end":11837.319,"text":"不過我們定期去巡檢確實是如此這個裡面的這個浮台據我的同仁去現場巡檢了解它大概有可能有兩種樣態一種樣態是它是定位點的這個浮台第二個部分是過去沉在這個水面裡面的話"},{"start":11837.859,"end":11865.121,"text":"那慢慢因為水波的這個衝擊或水利的衝擊慢慢再浮出來了所以這也是為什麼我們今天還有再請人家去尋檢的關係我們不會說清完的時候完全置之不理你可能清不乾淨結果你還敢發兩篇新聞稿還罵說大家以兒傳兒連我在立法院在質詢你們都可以講說都清完了就救資料我現在給你最新的資料那這樣不是變成兩個很嚴重問題嗎你清完這個東西你變成是一個錯誤的消息"},{"start":11865.842,"end":11886.618,"text":"第二個你還幫別人造謠 變成自己在造謠啦而且這個啦 你看 次長你看十幾... 十...好像那個小船一樣 十幾艘以上在那個水面上你都... 你只要走過去 一般的民眾就看得到啦不要媒體去採訪 不要立法院去看一般民眾只要從這個新聞 這個大馬路過去就看到了捏啊你還在損損沒 你不是故意在誤導嗎"},{"start":11888.557,"end":11916.051,"text":"我不要只有罵你啦我是說我現在是跟你講道理講得很清楚我給你看有圖有真相對不對啊這個是新聞的這個志鵬池你趕快找人去看好不好謝謝委員的資料給我們順便去尋查一下我會給你啊你也看一下你看一下不是只有那個小船在左邊飄你看右邊來來OK我給你看一下右邊那個是什麼那是廢棄的光電板啊那麼清楚啊來再下一張我為他證實是昨天去的喔我特別拿了昨天的報紙給你喝飽"},{"start":11917.728,"end":11942.944,"text":"昨天鄭麗文 前天當選這個黨主席鄭麗文當選國民黨黨主席 對這是19號的報紙我昨天人就在這個地方那我看到就剛剛講 剛剛給大家看了18號跟19號裡面的戰事區沒有清完志鵬池 該清的沒有清完你看 這個志鵬池 你看旁邊這個是什麼這是個很完整的光電板 整個整個好好的 整座都在這裡好好的"},{"start":11945.07,"end":11953.056,"text":"你怎麼連這東西都沒清呢右邊是破碎的光電板你隨便一看就抓得到了這個我們去查明一下"},{"start":11954.269,"end":11979.356,"text":"那個市長你們當初當初沒有會漏洞這麼大沒看到是你們自己去看的還是環境部給你們資料不是吧不是我們有自己我們在後有沒有最後因為時間有限來我整理了一下OK來下來我來我們最後時間有限我做一個第一個我鄭重的呼籲不是只有立法院在問政我很感動聯合報的記者一組人"},{"start":11980.475,"end":12000.156,"text":"一組人去做了90天對嘉義廢棄的光電板的追蹤他們說什麼 這是一個食言的教訓政策暴衝導致短短4年一個颱風來就翻車了而且要全民去買單到現在該清的還沒清完是不是污染了土地然後還要講說民眾在造謠這都嚴重的一個事情"},{"start":12001.614,"end":12028.297,"text":"我請那個部長跟次長回氣號看一看聯合報的那個追蹤報導90天的追蹤報導 好不好另外我做三個 簡單我做三個要求 來第一個 針對這一次為什麼出現剛剛我講的根本沒有清完 你竟然講說是清完了到底出了什麼問題 實地再去勘查 好不好然後盡快提出一個檢討沒有清完了 趕快清走 好不好這是第一個要求 第三個"},{"start":12029.693,"end":12058.539,"text":"一定要水面光電板的一個災害的應變計畫這個應該是環境部跟經濟部要趕快盡力出來好不好要趕緊 第二個我們民眾黨已經針對水庫跟水面型上面要納這個環評請環境部跟行政院跟經濟部不是只有做評估啦趕快提出一個正面板來好不好就提這三大要求好 一起努力拜託一下大家只要到嘉義"},{"start":12059.835,"end":12069.684,"text":"新聞還有一些那個志望寺那個旁邊去看就會發現戰志區跟志望寺都在那邊清乾淨 趕緊把它清乾淨 好 謝謝好 謝謝張綺凱委員發言 請洪孟凱委員發言好 感謝主席 麻煩請環境部彭部長"},{"start":12089.734,"end":12117.887,"text":"請彭部長部長好 部長好 部長很務實的來探討光電板的一個部分我延續剛剛召委的一個問題我先請教現在全台灣到底有多少光電板以重量來看這個要去算一下啦因為總共大概是15GW15GW重量 因為我們現在討論的是光電板現在發電以及未來20年後可能要清除的所以應該要現在算出來可以盤點出來現在台灣多少光電板"},{"start":12119.427,"end":12146.016,"text":"呃 這個因為它每一個順序的時間不一樣排出的時間也不一樣所以我們到目前為止都不知道此時此刻台灣有多少光電板15Gigawatt所以我們大概可以算推算呃 這個請能源署來算來 還是能源署 來經濟部次長因為那個片有大有小來 沒有問題大小這是 但是這很務實我們今天算科學 科學 數學這都很務實的數字現在台灣此時此刻有多少光電板重量來講"},{"start":12149.53,"end":12170.212,"text":"這個重量我們要計算一下 不知道 也不知道基本上我們現在設置了15.1GW 是 我都清楚但是我現在要了解的是說有多少 為什麼我會問這個問題 因為再來接下來第二 這次颱風毀損了多少光電板以我們現在看到的是有2000公噸的廢棄物 是不是"},{"start":12172.906,"end":12185.222,"text":"對 兩千噸兩千噸嘛那兩千噸的廢棄物平均要處理因為有近有遠有這個難易處理兩千噸的廢棄物要處理要花費多少錢 有沒有推估"},{"start":12187.028,"end":12205.273,"text":"因為這個是他光電業者跟回收業者的商業行為有的貴有的便宜有的一公斤可能只要20幾塊有的要開到30幾塊不一定但我的意思是說2000噸的這個處理廢棄物推估要花多少費用我所知道大概花幾億左右幾億左右幾億是幾億"},{"start":12208.735,"end":12226.805,"text":"部長為什麼會問這個問題 很簡單嘛業者羊毛出在羊身上如果說這一次破損了兩千公噸高達幾億元的部分那會不會業者他沒有辦法負擔然後他到時候就是擺爛變爛攤子不會不會 那以及現在全台灣到底有幾公噸的光電板"},{"start":12227.785,"end":12248.538,"text":"因為每年都會有颱風那我們想要了解的是說我們現在到底不定時炸彈今年因為颱風來而毀損了2000噸的廢棄物造成幾億的額外的支出那未來我們如果說以之後要報廢的光電板來算那這幾年我們就真的只能祈禱台灣都風調雨順 國泰民安"},{"start":12251.328,"end":12280.344,"text":"不然今年破損兩千噸明年破損一千噸那每年是不是都會有業者增加的額外的成本收入那這一些都應該是主管機關去掌握跟要求我們才能夠確保是說有沒有辦法推行這個政策的時候確實業者能夠到最後處理這些廢棄物嗎包委員 這個兩千噸目前我們算到平均的價格大概是一噸是上萬塊所以整個這次兩千多噸他們自己要負擔六億左右六億左右 對"},{"start":12281.164,"end":12299.969,"text":"不會讓他們逃掉吧當然不會啊因為他們基本上跟能源署都有簽約的你先講不會啦我先姑且相信不過再來我們看到2032年環境部最拼評估太陽能的發電廢棄物高達5萬公噸剛講2000公噸就要花6億那5萬公噸要花多少錢你剛剛講一個平均30塊5萬公噸"},{"start":12309.915,"end":12311.336,"text":"15億喔 還是150億150億那有沒有算過這150億誰買單基本上他如果是正常廚藝的話因為他們有交給如果2039年"},{"start":12325.816,"end":12346.642,"text":"每公會將近10萬噸10萬公噸的廢棄物1公噸剛剛你講了1公斤30塊10萬公噸會是300億對不對也就是剛剛我們召委有講到就是說你實際的處理成本可能到了397億可是你現在收的回收清潔費每千瓦只有1000塊"},{"start":12348.024,"end":12370.197,"text":"所以你平均差別有兩倍以上 差了兩百多億那這兩百多億要誰買單報告委員 因為現在量比較少所以量供需之間 因為他才開始在做從來沒有那麼大量過所以第一個是現在的市場上還不均衡那我們預期未來會均衡當然啦 那個價格應該是要把它調升啦"},{"start":12371.107,"end":12395.252,"text":"你說回收 回收的清潔費應該要調升對 我們其實有跟能源署在討論過這個事情因為2019年以前你設的光電板的業者是不是連繳回收清潔費都沒繳是 沒錯是嘛那你現在制度上面已經有公平性的一個缺陷你現在又持續的增加可是我們增加的這個回收清潔費也都沒有收足額日本已經出來了"},{"start":12396.292,"end":12418.906,"text":"上個月的新聞 日本就講說光電板的報廢潮會是一個未來非常嚴重而且是燙手的山芋尤其日本講說到2035年左右是會有50萬公噸的光電板日本的業者 日本的這個能源大臣直接講啊環境大臣環境大臣直接講啊 回收費用誰出無人買單啊"},{"start":12420.523,"end":12438.057,"text":"所以如果說我們現在已經看到可能10年20年左右的問題就已經有那麼龐大的一個成本支出而現在我們的經濟部相關的政策就是一直來光電光電來使用來申請但是光電會面臨到兩個問題第一問題是可能颱風每年都來一次來的颱風就會回損"},{"start":12442.519,"end":12467.216,"text":"這次是極端啦不是每一次都會那麼多因為以前也沒那麼多過所以你也沒有辦法保證我們的極端氣候只會越來越多越來越少沒有辦法保證嘛這是第一個我本席當然不希望我也希望台灣風調也順國泰民安但是實際今年已經面臨到這樣的問題啦在今年以前也沒有人也沒有人知道說現在我們光電板那麼的脆弱一次颱風來就會有那麼大量的一個破損"},{"start":12468.217,"end":12492.725,"text":"那第二個部分是我們看到可能預期的將來我們至少都還有幾十年可以活吧我們預期的將來10年20年左右就會有幾百億的處理費用應該要做處理而這些處理費用如果沒有預售的話到時候誰買單不知道業者他現在賺錢賺得很開心但會不會他到了那時間點之後他就雙手一攤沒錢了脫產了變賣了"},{"start":12495.523,"end":12502.928,"text":"他政府國家公司關閉了那逃走了怎麼辦還是要換一個人頭那是誰要誰要處理"},{"start":12504.707,"end":12529.316,"text":"部長這是不是一個問題我相信這是我們共同應該要面對的問題我認為報告委員其實這個回收你不要把它當成廢棄物啦所以我們在未來要修雙法的時候也希望委員來支持我認同啊能夠利用回收再利用我當然認同但是現在就很務實的層面就是說那你要告訴我你剛剛算的每公斤30元是不是就最低標準你至少你要花每公斤30元處理成本嘛"},{"start":12529.896,"end":12556.853,"text":"那如果說真的是這個處理成本就在這邊的話那就是鐵打的成本在那裡那你就要回推是說那你現在到底有此時此刻多少噸未來要花每公斤30元你應該這樣回頭來去算你就可以算得出你現在應該預期我們要怎麼樣解決這個問題嘛當然當然也因此剛剛召委才提出來您也講了應該要去算怎麼樣我們要來面臨到這個問題啊是這是一個債務模型的問題"},{"start":12557.694,"end":12565.211,"text":"沒錯 那這個辦法誰要來提出我們能源署跟我們循環署他們就是在磋商這個事情什麼時候可以提出"},{"start":12566.621,"end":12590.251,"text":"一個具體可行這個是減碳足跡我們講說淨零碳排的時候我們要看減碳路徑那一樣光電板的設置我們現在也沒有說反對光電板喔但我的意思是說你要預先設想20年後15年後廢棄的光電板怎麼處理那你的廢棄光電板處理路徑什麼時候可以提出我們剛剛兩個數都有代表說是年底之前提出方案"},{"start":12590.731,"end":12596.234,"text":"好 提出方案我們要再來檢視具體與否以及真的是否可行 因為我們都關注到這個問題了對 謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員發言請牛許廷委員發言謝謝主席 彭部長有請請彭部長"},{"start":12617.779,"end":12643.845,"text":"劉委員好 黃部長午安 辛苦了這今天除了光電板之外 噪音管制法也很重要這本席作為提案人 這花一點點質詢的時間我們提早把一些問題做釐清後面在逐條的時候速度可以加快這我有看到環境部的報告我們這次提噪音管制法修正大概幾個方向第一個是主管機關嘛 名字總要修嘛因為升格環境部 這應該沒有太大的問題那麼主要是26條 也有非常多的委員提大概就是幾個方向 第一叫提高罰緩嘛"},{"start":12644.705,"end":12665.312,"text":"第二個叫加入吊扣牌照的機制第三是本席提出的加入環境講習分別做這幾件事情來做一下討論第一個請教部長的意見有關於噪音車的橫行都會造成破壞大家生活品質這樣一個狀況部長同不同意應該要予以嚴懲重罰以嚇阻相關行為同意"},{"start":12666.152,"end":12690.262,"text":"非常同意 非常同意所以基本上各委員的版本只要能夠順利的整合提高法環都會支持嗎是 支持我們部裡面有沒有自己的版本目前沒有 我們都遵照委員的這個意見部裡面沒有自己的版本但是會對支持委員的想法對 遵照委員的意見 謝謝第二有關於吊扣牌照的機制這部長你覺得怎麼樣從我們的地方環保局給我們的反應他們非常認可這樣的一個制度"},{"start":12690.982,"end":12705.875,"text":"所以基本上尊重地方意見其實部裡面應該也會從善如流對不對因為本席其實是希望吊扣牌照的機制要盡快來入法而且其實我個人的意見是越嚴格越好啦因為你只有很多有條件搞噪音車的人大概也不怕你罰還啦"},{"start":12706.856,"end":12727.187,"text":"但是法環是一定要做的嘛 你不能不做嘛所以吊扣牌照 沒收車輛等等 這樣東西才會有效嚇阻好 那謝謝部長講得非常清楚第三個比較特別 因為其實剛剛前兩個您在你的這個部裡面的書面報告裡面也講得蠻清楚就基本上都表示同意 這本期非常感謝我們希望可以趕快完成這個工作那第三個本期提的這個新增262項是講說增加環境講習的規定"},{"start":12730.909,"end":12748.909,"text":"這個環境講習的意思就是說就像這個現在違反很多道路交通守則的祭典祭到一定程度之後就要去上課嘛那上課對大家來講當然就是一種麻煩嘛那這個麻煩它其實就是一種變相嚇阻的這樣一個效果那我想這個兆英從兆管法的角度來增加環境講習的規定一樣你這個在調控牌照跟罰環之間一樣有這種"},{"start":12752.239,"end":12770.253,"text":"中間的這樣子的一個違規情勢的時候要予以環境講習那這部分因為在書面報告裡面講得很清楚是不是請部長說明一下你們對於環境講習這樣的想法這邊支持委員的提案因為像空污法如果違反的話我們也是要求他們要去上課的真的齁好"},{"start":12772.535,"end":12791.878,"text":"那本期目前對於詢答的內容也非常滿意我們希望我特別要感謝一下我們廖偉強召委啊特派審的召應管制法剛剛部長都同意啊那我想這修法的時候會很順利我們希望這樣的民生法案趕快來三讀之後來質詢感謝部長那我們還是要談一下太陽能光電板部長你也是桃園人對不對你會支持皮糖重電嗎"},{"start":12793.099,"end":12818.18,"text":"呃 基本上齁 這個過去已經發生過很多的案例啦齁那基本上因為皮糖其實它是有一定的一個功能啦齁那過去一開始有過但是後來我所知道是都不大接受了是啊 我們那時候本席還是桃園市市議員基本上是地方議會當中是強力的反對後來才幫這樣子的案件踩了煞車那最近又開始出現什麼水庫重電等等那當然其實都會有"},{"start":12818.86,"end":12838.11,"text":"一樣的疑慮嘛 包含水質如何來做確保光電板的退場機制等等它其實都是很大的問題所以現在很多的委員都希望比如說納入環評機制或什麼我希望部長要採好環境部的本位嘛好不好 我們三個方向來做簡單的提點就好第一個 選址跟審查制度啦它可能要比"},{"start":12838.61,"end":12855.583,"text":"本來更嚴格你一開始做政策鼓勵因為推動綠能這本行願意理解但他如果造成一些成本外部化的時候他本來就要與時俱進做調整所以審查制度的修訂可能是需要思考的第二個是很多委員都講過我就不贅述了廢棄物模組的回收跟處理系統的落實嘛他是一個高成本的問題我們很擔心"},{"start":12856.744,"end":12875.343,"text":"很多的廠商只會開案但沒有辦法收場造成很多的成本不可以外部化的這是本席的提醒第三個當然就是敏感的區域嘛水庫也好 皮湯也好 農地也好它的設置退場跟土地富裕的機制我想這都是要站在環境部的本位那麼未來大家再進入一些機制的討論的時候我希望部長就不用"},{"start":12876.384,"end":12903.389,"text":"顧慮其他政府的時候有時候我們就不管是勞動權也好環保權也好本來在過去經濟發展的本位裡面他是相對弱勢的但部長的角色很重要是就希望採好這樣立場我們把機制完善好避免外部化大家才對綠能政策的推動會比較放心可以嗎好時間有限我們就說到這邊謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員發言先宣告待會羅廷維委員質詢完畢後休息用餐20分鐘休息後繼續開會"},{"start":12910.428,"end":12915.559,"text":"謝謝主席 有請環境部 經濟部請洪部長和池主"},{"start":12919.191,"end":12945.172,"text":"陸委員好部長想跟你就教幾個問題我想我們這一次因為颱風有許多的風電設施擋不住颱風所以造成了整個毀損那我們看到屏東嘉義環境部說有災損的總計有33暗場光電板那當初這些光電板在設置的時候並沒有做環評所以8月27號的時候有要求做事後的補救總體檢請問做了嗎"},{"start":12946.933,"end":12975.541,"text":"資料能不能提供這個能源署他們有特別去做我們有協商好 請說我們針對於丹納斯受損的31個案場還有4個比較大型的這個水面的這個案場有去做一些檢驗然後檢驗檢查的這個結果也有請業者在兩個月裡面進行改善兩個月內進行改善大致有多少要兩個月內全部都要兩個月內進行改善全部嗎"},{"start":12977.466,"end":12985.686,"text":"相關的這個缺失我們要求他兩個月內進行改善當然依照缺失的情節不一樣他有的是立即改善資料能不能提供"},{"start":12987.411,"end":13008.389,"text":"好麻煩你會後請提供那我想另外呢近期啊台灣設置在水庫跟集水區光電板遍及全國各地但相關的環評跟耐風性呢也引起了社會高度的一個關注我想請問現在多少的水庫集水區或者是在任何的河面上放置光電板不知道有沒有這樣的資料"},{"start":13009.534,"end":13032.969,"text":"我目前掌握的資料大概在是不是在水庫的水面太陽能的暗場大概是有6場6場 對 集水區呢集水區的部分因為我們從今年的1月開始針對於水庫的集水區它特別是屬於在環境敏感的區位20M以上的這個部分現在還沒有任何一個暗場現在經過這個程序審議通過的"},{"start":13036.482,"end":13047.602,"text":"我們希望還是要關注啦不管是任何的一個場域都應該有設置就應該要知道那大台中地區有哪個集水區有設置光電板部長你知道嗎"},{"start":13050.568,"end":13069.047,"text":"水庫集水區是一個非常大的概念舉例而言比如說像高雄或是台中台中的話石岡壩它非常的接近下游若是以水庫集水區的話幾乎整個所謂的大甲溪的流域都是屬於水庫的集水區"},{"start":13069.688,"end":13092.625,"text":"所以我今天想討論就是台電與大甲溪東市馬鞍後池設置的光電板根據台電的官方說明光電設施的材料為高密度的巨蜥耐酸鹼且不釋放有害的物質每年定期水質檢測台水公司配合確保水質的安全然而地方民眾跟部分團體還是憂心颱風期間漂浮結構安全與水質的長期變化"},{"start":13097.349,"end":13107.056,"text":"當然也有人在討論所謂的清洗光電板會不會有所謂的一些相關水質的污染我想是不是請部長或者是經濟部再一次的說明"},{"start":13109.319,"end":13131.317,"text":"針對於我們綠能的發展或是太陽能光電事實上我們在今年年初對於不管是環社的檢核或是景觀生態還有地方知情權都有強化的要求所以基本上我們會先要求說開發業者在當地先召開地方的說明會"},{"start":13132.677,"end":13145.903,"text":"我想我的問題比較具體一點就是你可不可以能夠具體的保證現在設置這些光電板不會影響到水質可以嗎還有清洗會不會影響到水質"},{"start":13146.55,"end":13175.289,"text":"那當然因為所有的太陽能的電板都是非常穩定的材料無論是過去設置的或是未來所開發的這個太陽能的耳光電板它的性質都是一樣那過去所設置的我剛剛說明了六處的水庫的這個設置我們定期的檢驗水質不管是經濟部所管或是農業部所管到目前的這個部分定期檢驗的這個結果水質都合乎我們國家的標準好 謝謝你"},{"start":13176.149,"end":13186.101,"text":"那我想在這一個案場當中我所提到的大甲溪那這些設置在設置的之前呢是否全數經過環評檢測"},{"start":13190.285,"end":13208.522,"text":"他要看那個規模大小那目前就我剛剛所提的啦就以大甲溪我們這一個東勢馬鞍後池那你後面要不要補你是不是應該當初未辦理啊那你環境部憲政在檢討嘛對不對你要要把他納入環評的標準是否會追溯你確定會追溯"},{"start":13209.363,"end":13223.579,"text":"基本上那個環評的概念是沒有追溯但是新蓋的就要開始接受環評所以我想問就是說這個部分是不是應該要追蹤一下我們都很關切啦隨面型的光電板納入審查範圍我想希望能夠啟動這樣環評什麼時候可以"},{"start":13226.659,"end":13252.894,"text":"目前我們是20公頃所以你有分大小嗎我們有分大小當然你說一片兩片你說真的是小到可能我們不予計較那就算了可是以大甲西光這個影片所看到的那個案場那以非專業人士我們都會有所疑慮那當時沒有啟動這個環評那未來能不能追溯去啟動我想位於颱風台灣位於這個颱風"},{"start":13255.735,"end":13284.234,"text":"我們非常多而且丹納斯所造成的這樣大面積的一個情況顯示浮動的這個光電耐風性還是明顯不足所以我想部長我強調綠能不可以建立在這個破壞水源的代價之上所以我們也希望未來在環評階段能夠聽取地方的意見加強溝通剛剛有提到也會不管未來如果設置的時候也會有地方的一個說明會對不對這個部分我希望能夠加強那另外我想再請問五街環評的一個審查"},{"start":13286.135,"end":13299.48,"text":"今天環團在立法院召開記者會對於環境部長就任後首提的環委名單卻因環公獨大遭抨擊那彭部長主政之下官派及民間的領選環委也是健康專長的雙掛鈴"},{"start":13301.121,"end":13320.647,"text":"那對於這樣子的一個記者會部長 環團要求重提環委的名單喔你有沒有什麼要回應的包委喔 因為這個環評委員是有一套機制的這個選拔也各界來推薦出來的所以其實那個是我如果環團如果有希望有自己的人選也希望能夠多提出來那基本上所以你願意跟環團溝通"},{"start":13321.747,"end":13339.853,"text":"其實基本上大家要聽因為那個有一個程序上來之後最後只有一個加倍的名單我可以來勾選那這一次呢總共這個民間的14位代表裡面有7位7位是屬於環工科系的但是環工也不是說開發智商喔他們自己有一個特別的聲明其中7位裡面有一位教授"},{"start":13340.253,"end":13357.344,"text":"他本身過去就中國醫藥大學的健康風險評估他就是做健康風險評估的所以這個大家的意見可能並不是如有些人這樣的其實我們是都有考慮在裡面我對個別的委員沒有意見我想但是這個記者會的內容我想應該多方參考去了解我們會參考"},{"start":13358.325,"end":13376.313,"text":"因為在這個911號公佈的第二屆環評委員名單中工程領域他們是說高達9人歷年最多一次那剛剛你有提到有所回應但是委員名單分佈且來自四個學科領域是歷屆最少醫藥的衛生委員他們則是掛鈴顯見專業結構單一這是他們的一個說法我希望說部長在本屆環委的隸屬四個學科領域"},{"start":13384.336,"end":13404.37,"text":"創立年新低他的遴選標準跟程序為何那為什麼醫藥掛零這個部分你可以再回應一下嗎包委員其實這個我們都有健康風險評估因為這個環評不是醫藥這不是醫藥的一個問題是健康風險評估所以我們裡面有一位專家就是風險評估的專家在裡面健康風險在裡面"},{"start":13405.21,"end":13424.122,"text":"我還是希望能夠多跟環團多做溝通那在這個 也跟你另外請教一下據聞本週將進行五階級中游試騎的環評大會有此事嗎沒有確定沒有他們的確送了報告但是現在讓委員在審核當中我自己都還沒有看到"},{"start":13424.622,"end":13452.457,"text":"所以目前的這個我相信可能委員有一些意見會叫他們提出書面意見目前我們還沒有進到排審的一個階段我想台中人擔心的是針對不論是五街或中游市區均要在台中港搶建LNG的這個接收設施而在多數環工背景的環評委員在中央受益下會不會有快速環評闖關這是我們擔憂我們希望能夠過程中能夠多溝通更圓融然後也能夠多聽聽地方的意見"},{"start":13453.377,"end":13471.09,"text":"那最後我想講的是噪音管制法今天我剛好在做所謂的提案說明的時候您也有在現場那許多的委員也很關注不管是罰款提高或者是調扣所謂的牌照我想環境部的都是覺得非常樂觀其成是嗎"},{"start":13471.73,"end":13491.375,"text":"支持委員的想法我們真的希望這件事情能夠加快速度因為民眾真的是苦不堪言所以也非常感謝昭緯這麼有智慧的趕緊排審那我們一起來努力也希望環境部能夠加大力度那最後想請問一下環境部聲音照相的科技執法啟動以來全台已佈建多少套設備"},{"start":13493.672,"end":13515.225,"text":"幾百套啦 幾百套 因為 之前就跟我講幾百套因為315套 你覺得夠嗎當然不夠啊 但是我也 因為 看起來還不如趕快修法是吧才化法過了之後我們本來希望更多啦 但是才化法過後之後因為我們主計單位也告訴我們說其實有些是地方的 直接採購跟補貼"},{"start":13516.966,"end":13542.275,"text":"鼓勵地方採購嘛 我想裁判法過後是錢又是權 大家一起想辦法嘛那我想不管是 因為我也曾擔任過議員地方的採購也是非常緩慢啦那所以我想不管是多管齊下的一個方式來解決噪音改裝的這個問題我們應該來努力那個裁罰件數啊 分佈啊這個是我們會後希望能夠再就教也希望這相關的數據能夠提供給我們是 好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":13545.527,"end":13548.899,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員發言那我們現在休息20分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14561.527,"end":14565.316,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14664.002,"end":14665.907,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":15290.888,"end":15301.19,"text":"現在繼續開會那請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們接著請楊瓊英委員發言 謝謝謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請環境部部長請彭部長楊委員好"},{"start":15318.547,"end":15338.296,"text":"部長好 我們看到從7月份的丹納斯颱風它毀損光電板的部分大概有10萬片當然這是顯性的數字我們不知道隱性的還有沒有但是我們看到烏山頭水庫浮動的太陽能板引發外界"},{"start":15339.056,"end":15368.042,"text":"的一個質疑說是不是會影響到水質的問題雖然政府也表示了這個對環境沒有什麼影響水質也無虞但是民眾還是認為不安心還是不安心所以因此政府好像事先沒有跟民眾說明清楚所以我首先要請教部長在環境部研議要將水面型的光電納入環評是不是有這回事"},{"start":15368.622,"end":15384.71,"text":"對 我們在研議當中那表示也就是說我們當時核准的時候我們也沒有想到會有這樣的事件發生對 其實因為全世界的這個水面型的光電就我們現在收集到的資料是沒有一個國家有水面型的光電有環頻"},{"start":15386.055,"end":15409.513,"text":"沒有 所以我們創因為我們看到這個事情這個面向民眾的不安所以我們預計要來研議將水面型的光電納入這個環評就陳磊你說的全世界還沒有那所以本期要請教因為民眾的安心非常重要跟地方政府來溝通也是非常的重要所以本期要請教預計什麼時候你們可以完成"},{"start":15410.072,"end":15424.947,"text":"我們希望年底之前因為我們現在10月31號以前我們因為其實這次我們的這個執法的修正不是只有水面型的光電還包含其他的項目所以我們現在在匯集意見當中我們希望一次的由本部的這個執法我們會來進行公聽"},{"start":15428.09,"end":15445.827,"text":"針對本席的提問也就是水面型的這個光電必須要納入環評你剛剛回答是說預計年底12月底以前能夠給社會大眾一個面向一個方向因為推動綠能落實在精靈碳排的部分是大家的共識"},{"start":15446.588,"end":15465.598,"text":"但是社會的共識跟民眾對於光電板的一個疑慮政府更應該要有負責任的而且不應該來忽視所以我們預計是在12月底能夠提出接下來本學要請教7月上旬的當然是颱風重創了南台灣"},{"start":15467.699,"end":15496.478,"text":"它高達的17級的陣風尤其讓位於滋洪池的水面的光電板受寵非常的嚴重那儘管這個是佔台灣所有整體性受損的光電板總體量是1%但是在水面被吹得一團亂的這些光電板還是讓人民觸目驚心還是非常的觸目驚心那受寵光電板超過了10萬片"},{"start":15497.979,"end":15523.72,"text":"超過了2000公噸這個數字幾乎相當於過去五年全台廢棄物的總和五年全台廢棄物的一個總和所以本席要請教院長也已經指示要將廢棄物清理法來做修正也就是說將光電板納入應回收的這個廢棄物的"},{"start":15526.983,"end":15549.674,"text":"範圍 內容 那請教目前的進度是如何呢報告委員 我們現在在修法的當中本部的修法的內容已經把這樣的概念已經融入進來的那整個廢青法的修正現在在院裡面在審核當中行政院那邊審查當中我們希望盡早可以送到大院能夠讓委員來用 院裡面審查當中那你們的KPI預計什麼時候會送進來呢"},{"start":15551.175,"end":15567.916,"text":"我們也希望能夠快一點因為院長也已經指示了你所謂的能夠快大概是什麼時候呢我們希望這個會期就可以送到大院來這個會期送來因為本席要告訴你的是說經過了一段時間之後它毀損的光電板所留下來還有細小的"},{"start":15569.353,"end":15586.723,"text":"矽晶片的一個碎片甚至還有玻璃的顆粒甚至還有塑膠浮桶的碎片還有電線散落在岸邊甚至我們看到有部分是它吹來吹去深埋在土裡頭"},{"start":15588.566,"end":15604.984,"text":"這些的問題都必須要去解決所以我們看到根據目前你環境部你的資料裡頭是說目前我們台灣可以有核准可以處理這些光電板的業者大概是只有4家"},{"start":15605.885,"end":15632.058,"text":"所以包含了你希望盡快在這個會期送進來第二個議題也就是說目前你核准的這些處理只有試一下那符合這些容量嗎請說說現在是可以的那我們也鼓勵因為但是有一個問題就是說這次發生的這個關聯板損毀是在南部那我們的幾家大的全部都在北部特別是桃園跟苗栗所以距離有點遠費用就相對的運送比較高"},{"start":15632.538,"end":15636.692,"text":"所以我們現在也鼓勵南部也應該有一些回收的業者來做這個事情"},{"start":15637.262,"end":15664.889,"text":"所以也就是我們修法然後我們要將它納入那同時也要到底我們能不能做得到這一個容量都必須要整體性去考量接下來最後一個議題我想要邀請這個經濟部因為風災之後我們的光電暗場滿目倉儀也讓民眾十分的憂心對於環境的一個影響因此卓院長也特別指示經濟部你要組成跨部會的總體"},{"start":15666.852,"end":15668.838,"text":"體檢小組 有沒有這回事啊"},{"start":15670.29,"end":15695.288,"text":"謝謝委員你們成立了嗎當那次颱風之後我們這些體檢針對31個案場包括我們這個外界矚目的水面型的部分我們都有去檢查了那我們也指定他一定的時間來完成改善什麼時候完成因為要進行整體性的場館管理還有抗災的韌性災害應變機制以及災後清除復原的這些整體性的檢討特別是在強化整個光電案"},{"start":15699.691,"end":15707.243,"text":"暗藏裡面的防災韌性所以你針對目前所體檢你預計什麼時候可以完成這些體檢"},{"start":15709.112,"end":15733.565,"text":"這個問題分為兩個部分針對抗防災的這個韌性的部分我們已經頒布了相關的規定要求所有的開發廠商必須要提出災害防救計畫併入在災害防救計畫裡面這就是以前我們核准的時候我們並沒有提出所以現在碰到了這些實例我們提出那本席要請教也就是說目前你的進度來"},{"start":15736.379,"end":15754.508,"text":"這個所謂的規定已經公告了這第一個 第二個的話 針對於體檢的缺失還有一些很少數的部分還沒有完成改善我們會持續的來追蹤你持續的來追蹤 你預計什麼時候完成體檢因為卓院長指示啊你預計什麼時候完成這些體檢啊"},{"start":15756.338,"end":15785.141,"text":"我們要求他大概年底前要提出來然後提出來之外我們還要複查去確定他所提出來的改善事項或是進行的改善事項有沒有合乎我們的標準為什麼本席要提出這個呢因為民眾很憂心到底他有沒有狀況他有沒有毒他要怎麼處理所以您現在給本席的回答就是說在年底以前你們的復檢一定會來做完成給國人報告是不是如此"},{"start":15785.761,"end":15804.829,"text":"對 而且這個 所以它那光電板它是非常穩定的這個物質啦它基本上對水質都有影響請針對本席的提問 是不是年底前你會檢查完畢 然後復檢完成 給國人報告是不是如此 是 是 是謝謝好 謝謝楊春英委員發言請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":15815.103,"end":15831.429,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想主席 各位同仁我國推動這個太陽能光電是邁向2050近零轉型一個重要的基礎的措施所以我完全支持再生能源發展的方向"},{"start":15832.069,"end":15858.52,"text":"那在這次的風災裡面我們也看到部分的這個光電暗場當然存在著很多的設置的風險還有環境管理的不足還有廢板這些處理延遲等等的問題所以我想今天在這個執行過程裡面不是在反對光電我是希望能夠協助政府來完善制度強化民眾對於綠能的信任我想"},{"start":15859.44,"end":15872.611,"text":"基本上重點是這樣子可是面對這次的風災所造成太陽光電板的受損還有這些板材外溢的甚至危及到民眾的生命財產安全所以我們認為除了研議如何精進這個環評的這個制度之外"},{"start":15874.733,"end":15898.386,"text":"更迫切的課題是要針對能源署對於現有以及審查中的光電暗場是否已經建立完善而且可執行的防災管理機制所以本席希望把焦點放在光電設施的防治治理責任跟制度的缺口我相信這不僅是產業署要管理的議題更攸關公共安全跟國土韌性"},{"start":15898.946,"end":15923.994,"text":"所以要先請教能源署李署長來這邊討論有關於相關的問題請署長署長你好是委員好是來我先請教一下因為上個月裡面有提到這個太陽光電的這個暗場設置是依法需要由專業的技師來簽證法官那另外這個"},{"start":15925.394,"end":15944.926,"text":"本次的風災裡面 能源署也會同電業審查委員針對全國水面型的光電案場一共有31案來完成電業的檢驗所以也希望能夠在兩個月裡面就要完成改善同時要加強宣導業者能夠落實平時的巡檢"},{"start":15945.846,"end":15965.311,"text":"想要請教第一個就是那這31個案場目前改善的情形如何具體的改善做了哪一些事情還有將來地面型的光電的這個場也是不是也要納入檢查如何能夠宣導業者能夠在平時落實這個他的巡檢是可以跟大家報告"},{"start":15966.151,"end":15979.139,"text":"兩個部分 一個部分就是剛才講這些水面型的我們有三十一個案場我們去把它再做一次全面的體檢那麼其中有二十二個案場大概是比較簡單 受損比較輕微的"},{"start":15981.38,"end":16008.942,"text":"那有九個案場是受損比較嚴重的那麼有五個那我們是希望他能夠提出改善計畫來在兩個月的時間也就是剛才講的他要提出他的改善計畫然後去做完改善那我們這個在年底前我們會再去複查他有沒有辦法完成改善那另外有四個案場是受損比較嚴重的就是我們看到比較多的那個滯洪池裡面再加一那"},{"start":16009.562,"end":16031.22,"text":"那受損比較嚴重那我們通常就是說請他提出改善計畫那有的有的案場我們了解就是說他可能就不改善他清走就清走他就損失了就是原來比如說原來他可能設置是3M但是有1M受到損害了他可能未來那個就清運走了我們是注重他會清運乾淨他可能就不再"},{"start":16032.421,"end":16057.157,"text":"增加修復它了那這個我們在年底之前會做完一個報告那第二部分就是剛才我們第二個槌尋的就是說其餘有關地面型的不只是水面型的就是地面型的這些太陽光電我們有什麼加強的措施那我們剛才也次長也報告我們現在是要求它依照災防法要去提出災害防救計畫"},{"start":16058.158,"end":16073.729,"text":"災害防救計畫除了事先災害來之前的準備作業也包括後面事後的廢棄物的清理那我們這個辦法已經公告了那我們會要求這些大型的業者他要提出依災方法提出災防的計畫"},{"start":16074.909,"end":16098.729,"text":"所以聽起來都有依照這個規定要求在執行中是那我們也期待能夠很快把這些該做的事情做好不過針對於這個業者落實平時的巡檢這邊是要做宣導這比較奇怪這個是一個責任為什麼還要宣導本來應該做的事情有沒有更強的這個措施來把這個事情可以更完整的落實"},{"start":16099.429,"end":16121.239,"text":"是我們宣導就是說要叫他要落實那另外我們也會去做抽查的查核那他平常做的查核他要留下查核的記錄那我們去做抽查的時候因為我們這個案件非常多全國的太陽光店大概有9萬多件那我們去做抽查的時候他要有資料讓我們可以查"},{"start":16121.639,"end":16145.744,"text":"他自己巡檢要做記錄大概我們現在是希望他能夠加強這一方面至少他準備的工作應該做好是那了解了那就謝謝署長請回座謝謝那我們知道這次風災不僅造成了嚴重的損害也凸顯了這個回收量能的問題針對現行的回收機制本席有幾個疑問想要請教彭部長部長請委員好"},{"start":16151.106,"end":16172.497,"text":"部長 有報告知道你所說的這個全世界的光電板的容量今年年底將到達2800個Gigawatts那台灣其實現在只有到15個Gigawatts 佔比只有0.5%其中33個光電廠的部分在12.1萬片的光電廠已經在這次淡拉斯颱風裡面受損"},{"start":16173.477,"end":16193.935,"text":"另外有9.1萬片已經完成資源化的處理1.8萬片經過修剪以後是何可以再利用現在也發現有1.2萬片暫置在合法場地這邊有幾個疑問請教一下部長所謂暫置是要放多久有沒有明確的處理的期程"},{"start":16194.535,"end":16216.32,"text":"這三個月呢還是半年還是一年那另外環境部能不能或是會成立災後光電廢棄物的管理機制納入未來如果光電案審查與營運管理規範裡面避免每一次都要先放著以後再說或者是說有沒有一個制度的管理避免讓這個站置將來就變成了棄置"},{"start":16218.881,"end":16243.209,"text":"環境部不能夠只告訴我們數字也希望能夠把這個管理的流程跟處理的責任可以一併來完成好謝謝委員因為我所知道這1.2萬片它是算是一般的廢棄物那它是暫置在那個地方那按照現在的法規它大概可以最多可以只能放一年那當然它因為它的處理廠的量能還有他們之間的合約可能沒有談得很好所以會"},{"start":16243.789,"end":16264.473,"text":"拖得比較久我們會盡量能夠督促他們盡快把它處理回收完成委員提到的災後風電的廢棄物管理就是這個概念非常好因為其實全世界沒有遇過這種所謂的十幾萬片毀壞的台灣是第一個所以我們現在其實很多的國家也來主動跟我推行我們怎麼去面對的這機制到底如何"},{"start":16265.413,"end":16283.102,"text":"但是我覺得我們未來也可以自己再檢討一下所以委員提出這樣的一個方式很好我們會組成一個小組由我們循環署來訂那因為包含了我們的這個資源循環促進法其實也會把這個東西放進來所以未來我相信我們可以走到一個正向的道路去進行"},{"start":16283.504,"end":16310.62,"text":"好 我們用前瞻性的方式來應對這些問題不少您也說太陽板廢棄物將歸類為四葉廢棄物的管理並納入應回收的廢棄物這個部分本席非常的支持可是還是有一些問題需要克服在修法還沒有確定之前是否能夠提出全國各縣市環保局一致性的執法指引因為我想不只是南部 應該各縣市"},{"start":16311.721,"end":16331.147,"text":"慢慢都會碰到類似的問題還有這裡面有提到這個將來要把這個相關的費率要做合理的調整那什麼叫合理的調整未來的規劃有沒有一個方向出來也報告委員其實因為他的這個現在的供需價量有一點因為過去的量不夠所以"},{"start":16331.647,"end":16357.106,"text":"做的成本就比較高那未來量如果逐步可以起來相對的供需之間這個價格就有機會會下降那這個當然這個是需要財務模型跟推算的那這個目前呢是要由我們未來可能都是我們循環署來推動未來我們是現在目前為止是我們循環署跟能源署一起來合作所以這個部分呢我們近期就會來討論這樣的如何去計算推估未來的需求那怎麼樣做得更好"},{"start":16357.85,"end":16371.181,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長下來還有一個問題最後要請教就是有關於老舊的這些漁船太儲回收處理上面的困難在這個請教部長之前我也要先請教一下有關於農業部對這個議題有關於老舊漁船的問題會請農業部方次長"},{"start":16381.284,"end":16402.119,"text":"次長好我知道您是漁業方面的專家剛好今天有機會在這邊麻煩次長對漁業方面的問題尤其是捕撈的這個漁船的生態應該很清楚尤其是這個老舊漁船的收購是一個很艱難的議題因為有很多的面向我們要同時的去考慮"},{"start":16402.899,"end":16424.353,"text":"那我們也知道台灣其實是一個海洋國家不管是遠洋的或者是近海的這個捕撈都是非常重要的對於漁民的生計對國家來講都是重要的問題那當然這個船用久了就會有淘汰的問題可能我們面對將來會有一萬艘的這個船需要做淘汰"},{"start":16424.873,"end":16450.971,"text":"那這個淘汰的過程裡面當然我們希望能夠減少過度的捕撈永續發展淘汰不符合標準船隻等等要提升我們的競爭力還有解決這個漁會船老問題跟輔導這個漁民作業等等目前比較困難的地方就是說有關於這個漁業船使用玻璃纖維材質的這個報廢困難而且回收的費用其實是高的"},{"start":16452.552,"end":16479.225,"text":"相關的這個船舶如果沒有好好的回收其實對地方尤其是漁館是造成一些處理上的影響那這個都是大家尤其是有漁港的這個縣市共同的痛所以想要請教次長就是說我們要完成規劃政策的這個前提要很完整的這個資料統計那目前漁業署這邊有沒有相關的資料可以讓我們多了解"},{"start":16480.24,"end":16495.339,"text":"跟委員報告那我們目前有在採取的這個收購老舊漁船這樣的一個計畫那去年114年就公告了之後呢總共有將近217艘的漁船前來參與這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":16496.641,"end":16513.21,"text":"那但是受限於經費的這個有限所以我們依照我們的經費的能量然後依序的排定這樣的優先順序以這個對於生態破壞比較大的微網漁船作為第一個優先的這個收購的順序然後依次的排列那剛剛委員所垂詢有關於就是"},{"start":16513.71,"end":16538.232,"text":"比較難處理的FRP的這樣的漁船的船體的這個問題那事實上我們在以前的減船的時候也曾經做過的就是把這個漁船內部的這個油倉各項清理完畢之後做為這個漁礁這樣的一個做法那目前我們也跟這個環境部這邊有在洽談就是目前有一個有一個新的比較新的技術就是利用水泥窯的這樣的一個回收的這樣的一個機制"},{"start":16538.652,"end":16567.545,"text":"那因為FRP裡面它的這個不可燃物包括氧化鎂 氧化鋁這些的部分可以作為使用那另外可燃物的樹脂的這個部分剛好可以作為一個結合所以我們目前正在洽談這方面的這樣的可行性好 謝謝市長那是不是能夠針對於如果有完整的統計資料也可以送到本席這邊來做後續的處理是 謝謝市長市長請回那最後還是要請教部長就是說老舊漁船的問題是跟光電板的處理"},{"start":16568.545,"end":16593.927,"text":"其實有點類似有點類似因為我們知道這個回收機制的建立回收量能跟技術的確保回收預算補助機制等等都是相關我們需要去處理的地方那到底廢棄物漁船的廢棄物是事業廢棄物還是一般廢棄物目前我們的處理量能是如何那將來有沒有相關可以回收的技術這剛剛次長所提到的問題"},{"start":16594.744,"end":16618.01,"text":"那這些部長這邊有沒有開始了解或者是開始去關注到這個議題報告委員目前我們有一個科專計畫就是協助農業部在處理這個問題那現在的在試驗當中例如說剛剛講到把它進到水泥窯之後去做處理那個量能有多少我覺得委員你說的沒錯這個就跟光電板一樣需要來規劃因為那個量慢慢就會起來"},{"start":16618.59,"end":16636.271,"text":"是 所以如果相關營業的成果可不可以也讓我們可以確實掌握 可以可以好 謝謝 也請將到時候那個相關的報告可以提供委員會的委員們謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":16647.469,"end":16650.216,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長"},{"start":16655.433,"end":16680.438,"text":"李委員好 部長部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重根據世界銀行的出版"},{"start":16681.038,"end":16710.336,"text":"他出版天然災害的热点全球的风险分析报告他指出台湾大概有73%的人口我们居住73%的人口居住在有三种以上灾害的可能冲击的地区第二个遭受到两种灾害冲击以上的国土地区台湾高达90%以上的国土"},{"start":16710.916,"end":16733.847,"text":"的這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎"},{"start":16738.294,"end":16751.142,"text":"全球UNDRR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦 出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫是你們自己的計畫"},{"start":16762.009,"end":16783.598,"text":"你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低"},{"start":16785.178,"end":16810.011,"text":"災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你"},{"start":16810.911,"end":16831.104,"text":"分別在災前 災中 災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員 災前是統計了目前我們的量能 積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎"},{"start":16832.365,"end":16849.428,"text":"對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統"},{"start":16859.91,"end":16873.161,"text":"那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS"},{"start":16875.564,"end":16891.099,"text":"那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的整備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢"},{"start":16892.38,"end":16911.93,"text":"錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決"},{"start":16921.474,"end":16949.391,"text":"系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新"},{"start":16949.991,"end":16974.604,"text":"即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理"},{"start":16979.266,"end":16994.063,"text":"架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎"},{"start":16995.186,"end":17010.758,"text":"報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷"},{"start":17012.16,"end":17030.857,"text":"因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道"},{"start":17031.818,"end":17041.148,"text":"整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資"},{"start":17049.878,"end":17055.864,"text":"自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛"},{"start":17065.012,"end":17089.654,"text":"所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個有沒有做到這樣的"},{"start":17090.898,"end":17099.044,"text":"這樣子 保證有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎"},{"start":17101.085,"end":17124.371,"text":"我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說"},{"start":17125.331,"end":17143.033,"text":"系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統"},{"start":17143.994,"end":17165.039,"text":"可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用"},{"start":17165.839,"end":17171.102,"text":"而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式 暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出 你們的溝通方式是環境部人員手動推波賴群組 提醒地方政府要進行災情通報"},{"start":17189.614,"end":17212.455,"text":"在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了 不是我們是要風險預測"},{"start":17214.597,"end":17228.849,"text":"你要達到風險預測 你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的準備的作用嗎"},{"start":17231.314,"end":17246.776,"text":"我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講得這麼好聽AMIS 滴滴OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧我是簡稱啦"},{"start":17248.138,"end":17257.043,"text":"那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在"},{"start":17274.934,"end":17293.809,"text":"我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講的災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針"},{"start":17300.514,"end":17305.938,"text":"這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程那他們的這個先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊非常明確的在規範的地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體這個措施平時準備的階段災害應急的階段還有這個"},{"start":17330.154,"end":17335.836,"text":"復舊復原復興的階段那災害應急的階段他們規定規範的說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準而要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散你要定期灑水"},{"start":17353.681,"end":17366.079,"text":"設置這個防飛的戰網那你處理實面建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設這個防滲透層"},{"start":17368.582,"end":17389.775,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維"},{"start":17395.678,"end":17424.364,"text":"但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到他體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力"},{"start":17425.064,"end":17446.25,"text":"而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛"},{"start":17446.75,"end":17461.315,"text":"譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔置場他們都規劃要兩階段"},{"start":17465.896,"end":17490.213,"text":"兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫這個災民清理出來讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制所以從第一階段的暫制場"},{"start":17491.374,"end":17515.484,"text":"然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要給你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升"},{"start":17516.264,"end":17537.925,"text":"然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃 這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫"},{"start":17539.426,"end":17563.246,"text":"或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場 第二次的佔治場然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促 尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次 第二次的佔治場 都要跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看"},{"start":17566.699,"end":17582.556,"text":"這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程"},{"start":17584.398,"end":17610.217,"text":"那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理"},{"start":17611.798,"end":17627.354,"text":"我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套"},{"start":17628.795,"end":17649.948,"text":"要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是"},{"start":17652.99,"end":17673.525,"text":"是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們是覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題"},{"start":17674.286,"end":17681.614,"text":"因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼"},{"start":17692.446,"end":17695.368,"text":"所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統"},{"start":17717.401,"end":17737.075,"text":"你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢 要建設這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的可是就沒好 現在不常來看是沒好的系統"},{"start":17742.967,"end":17768.465,"text":"痛定思痛啦這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門"},{"start":17769.786,"end":17792.756,"text":"我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林淑穩委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢下一位我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在下一位請突謙紀委員發言"},{"start":17801.468,"end":17825.885,"text":"好 謝謝主席那請問彭部長還有賴次長好 有請彭部長 賴次長土匯文好部長 我先請問一下像我們風災過後那個廠商如果跟環境部回報說這些光電板的處理情形已經全數清理完成了那清理完成是怎麼樣叫做清理完成"},{"start":17826.565,"end":17853.162,"text":"包委員因為我們的這個我們會有我們這個管理中心南區管理中心例如這次是南區管理中心環境部管管署的然後結合地方環保局一起去查驗所以最後那一家在9月5號他的我們給他期限是9月5號完成我們9月6號有去全部案場再巡過一次那的確是沒有廢棄物所以這個部分我們是有一套程序在進行但是其實那應該叫做清運完成"},{"start":17853.362,"end":17880.572,"text":"清运完成对你清理完成应该是指清运处理完成那你单就你看我们10月8号那时候我们卫环委员也有质询针对光电板这个案子那后来晚上马上就看到经济部当天晚上8点半就发新闻稿说我们的废弃的光电板已经全数清理完成而且其实我们那天质询的时候部长"},{"start":17881.092,"end":17903.087,"text":"也還在講其實還有一萬兩千片是佔置在其他的地方那可是晚上馬上經濟部就說全數清理完成這個我覺得好像在玩文字遊戲耶一般的民眾會感覺說好像我們光電板已經清理完了然後這個業者也已經都把它分解列解處理完成我覺得好像有一點在誤導民眾耶"},{"start":17905.237,"end":17923.172,"text":"我們的清理是指的是說離開原有的案場回復它正常的環境的品質那就是清運嘛A點到B點你把它清除清運走所以我覺得說這個還是要注意一下因為我覺得有一點而且當天明明就講說還有一萬兩千片"},{"start":17924.033,"end":17950.027,"text":"都還在暫置結果晚上就發新聞稿說已經全數清理完成不知道的民眾會覺得說我們環境部經濟部動作那麼快光電板已經全部都清理好了我覺得這個還是要注意一下我覺得有點在玩文字遊戲而且當天晚上在發這個我是覺得有點在誤導民眾那這個我覺得還是要稍微注意一下那還有針對我們"},{"start":17954.205,"end":17976.454,"text":"風災後廢棄的光電板我們現在到底還有光電板還有多少沒有處理我們看一下我們這個興溫智鴻池它是業者是永新能源那據我們了解永新能源應該是雲豹的子公司那在7月15號有去巡檢過後來好像就沒有再去稽查"},{"start":17977.074,"end":18003.069,"text":"那我們看了一下 它是當時是開罰100萬然後100萬可是它的稽查的記錄是說不需要改善然後當然目前我們查結果錢也沒有繳然後後來在9月16號環境部書面回覆我們說新聞志鴻池佔自1萬片那結果我們看9月19號這個新聞"},{"start":18006.038,"end":18033.426,"text":"媒體有去現場看說也看到現場還有光電板泡在水裡而且還有很多廢棄物還埋在土裡那後來經濟部在10月7號的書面又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片那其實我們就搞不懂一下環境部說9月16號說暫至一萬片結果經濟部又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片然後經濟部又在10月16號新聞稿"},{"start":18035.126,"end":18064.376,"text":"又跟我们讲说7月24号已经清理完了民众不要以而传了我刚刚也有听到张吉凯委员针对这一部分也有提出质询那我不知道说这个到底环境部跟经济部这个落差真的很大虽然那时候有讲因为规格尺寸大小不一所以计算上有落差可是这1万多的落差跟4万多的落差实在是差太多了吧"},{"start":18065.911,"end":18091.23,"text":"包委 這個可能是統計時間的不同的差別就我們來說的話我們9月6號去看是完全沒有在廢棄物的部分在那個暗場有一些呢 他的完好無缺的他還擺在那個地方並沒有廢棄掉至於說可能又一個情況是說因為現場其實非常的亂特別是在9月5號之前所以他們在清的過程當中可能有一些"},{"start":18091.95,"end":18115.929,"text":"不小心埋在土裡面了所以其實有經過雨水沖刷有可能造成所以我這個禮拜會請我們同仁再去看一次再去檢查一次對啊 部長你要看一下環境部9月16號說佔值1萬片經濟部10月7號變成3萬3千片不但沒有減少還變增加所以經濟部跟環境部這到底怎麼計算的"},{"start":18117.044,"end":18133.594,"text":"跟委員說明那個是10月7號回復了但是他引用的這個統計的時間我回去再查一下再跟你說明這裡面我們確實的這個回復的這個當時的這個時間點會有一個時間差的關係我想應該原因是在這個地方"},{"start":18134.034,"end":18153.499,"text":"對啊可是前面9月多是說環境部說1萬片10月多經濟部變成3萬多片上一次質詢的時候說1萬多片兩個都1萬多片說差幾千片因為規格大小計算上可能有落差後來我們再去查你們回覆是變成3萬多片所以"},{"start":18156.4,"end":18170.921,"text":"我們真的很不了解現在這到底還有多少光電板沒有處理而且我們問現在這個戰志在哪裡環境部也說不知道經濟部也說不知道那我不知道你們怎麼稽查的"},{"start":18171.927,"end":18198.994,"text":"這個有一定的一個廢棄物存放的一個規定不過 報告委員因為這個處理是地方的環保局在處理我們是在跟環保局在協同作業那我當然你現在問我在哪裡我當然不清楚但是我知道說它有存放一個地方在某一個工業區那我們經濟部跟環境部都沒有去稽查嗎我們處理我們的這個當成廢棄物在處理那他們是關電太陽能關電的主管機關所以我們的處理的角度不大一樣"},{"start":18199.594,"end":18209.894,"text":"對啊 你不知道在哪裡佔置那你怎麼去稽查我們當然清楚啊因為我們清楚在某一個存放的地點可是你們回覆都說你們都不知道環境部也不知道 經濟部也說不知道啊"},{"start":18212.556,"end":18233.917,"text":"然後環境部還說要看新聞才知道我們在前端清運的部分有分為兩個程序第一個從水面清到旁邊的土地那現在到底站置在哪裡那現在的話應該是在我們回收廠商他的所謂的指定的這個倉庫這個地方所以你們也不知道在哪裡地方"},{"start":18234.837,"end":18259.605,"text":"所以我就很疑惑啊你都不知道那你怎麼積查到底實際數量到底誰去查的所以難怪你們落差那麼大連放在哪裡都不知道包委員有啦那個是在一個戰智場裡面那我們同仁知道但是這個東西其實我們會清楚這個來源但是不見得會對大眾說放在哪裡所以我希望了解一下啦難怪你看9月16號說剩1萬片10月7號經濟部說剩3萬多片然後兩個部會都不知道"},{"start":18264.426,"end":18293.348,"text":"放在哪里那你怎么稽查到底还有没有说明更多根本完全都没有掌握啊那你再看新庄制红池也是这个业者是源于太阳光电那个时候我也有询问说环境部登记是源于光电那经济部登记是进精深能源那我说这样子登记可以吗你们到现在也没有回复然后后来八九月去巡查稽查"},{"start":18293.908,"end":18322.31,"text":"後來說喊開罰900萬後來聽說只罰了300萬說600萬因為有改善完成所以免罰那環境部在8月21號說園域還堆置三萬五千片在岸邊後來在9月16號就說只剩兩千片結果又來了經濟部10月7號又跟我們說暫至一萬七千片本來兩千片現在經濟部又說一萬五千片"},{"start":18323.41,"end":18349.577,"text":"然後經濟部還在10月16號馬上又再發新聞稿說在7月30號已經清完民眾不要以而傳而 又來了又叫民眾不要以而傳而結果你們自己一下子2000片 一下子變15000片然後又說7月30號已經處理完叫民眾不要以而傳而然後一樣 站置地點 一樣不知道然後媒體在10月17號"},{"start":18351.448,"end":18368.94,"text":"民眾跟媒體去現場看根本現場還凌亂不堪還有很多的碎片剛剛張祺凱委員書也有提供照片說他這裡是才去造的現場還有浮桶 還有碎片還有很多的廢棄物那我們這個光電板到底處理得怎麼樣"},{"start":18370.796,"end":18393.344,"text":"我看經濟部跟環境部現在大家都搞不清楚包委員不會啦 這個其實齁因為那個是一個很大面積開放的場域所以基本上清完之後有些他在這個當時我們去看那個岸邊都是爛泥啊爛泥 所以可能有一些的確碎片或做什麼放在這個下面或是說他整個業者又回去了做什麼樣的事情 我們不清楚因為我們是在時間點 例如說9月6號去處理"},{"start":18395.665,"end":18415.722,"text":"我們也答應委員 我們這個禮拜一定請我們同仁再去巡查過一次是不是有如張祺凱委員說的這樣的一個事實如果有這個事實 我們就會開罰好 你看 先溫治紅池 你們7月15號去巡檢之後開罰100萬後來稽查記錄我們也看 說不需改善也還沒有繳清這個罰款"},{"start":18417.543,"end":18443.233,"text":"後來9月19 媒體去看現場還光電板泡在那邊喔那我問你 現在到底新聞志榮池到底處理乾淨了沒有現場已經處理乾淨了但是我剛跟委員講說他可能有一些散落到那個地方可能雜質因為水泥下雨沖刷之後跑出來的這個我這個禮拜會請同仁去觀察那我問一下 他罰100萬不需要改善為什麼不需要改善當然要改善啊可是他稽查紀錄寫不需要改善啊"},{"start":18450.456,"end":18474.436,"text":"對啊 又罰錢然後不須改善 這我真的看不懂我們是罰的是廢清法 這個是我們這個是依照這個電業的這個處理的相關規定再去做處理的那不須改善是什麼意思表示他已經改善完成 所以不須改善嗎不是 但是是依照廢清法的這個規定去裁判"},{"start":18476.095,"end":18504.232,"text":"不過委員 這個他已經繳錢了啦他有繳錢好 錢繳了那他罰100萬然後為什麼上面住民說不需改善然後後來9月19然後媒體去看光電板還泡在水裡啊然後現在問到底處理好沒有沒有 委員光電板泡在水裡這個事情要去確定是他好的光電板泡在水裡就是還在水面上還是壞掉的在水面上這個要有一個定義喔 出來的那目前的確是壞掉的都已經移出這個水面上了"},{"start":18505.332,"end":18527.913,"text":"希望環境部跟經濟部針對這戰制的希望要有一個明確的數字啊這個差好幾萬片 這說規格尺寸大小不一 這落差幾萬片也太誇張了給你的報告跟新聞之間混在一起所以造成這個數字的混淆就我的數字 我看到的數字都是有在修正 例如說原來最早是15萬片一直最後修到12.1萬片"},{"start":18528.834,"end":18544.409,"text":"那我希望這新聞志宏池跟新莊志宏池我們經濟部環境部再去現場徹底清查一下到底怎麼回事那媒體也報導10月17號也報導現場拍的照片啊那剛剛張其凱說他自己去現場拍的啊然後"},{"start":18545.39,"end":18563.873,"text":"你看新莊志宏池之前罰900萬後來說改善了600萬免罰那如果照你現在如果這個照片是真的而且我相信這媒體也去現場拍的啦那根本就沒改善啊那600萬還要不要罰好 包委員那個開罰是地方環保局在我們協助之下在開罰"},{"start":18564.594,"end":18582.439,"text":"那至於他有沒有罰什麼繳錢我們會跟環保局保持密切的聯繫在最後的確認那至於說他有沒有清完成因為委員這個是一個開放的場域誰都可以去所以我們會請同仁再去確認一下我希望部長針對這個幫我們徹底了解清楚因為我們覺得"},{"start":18583.739,"end":18603.115,"text":"這光電板這裡面牽扯的問題真的太多了而且我剛剛一直講喔上一次也問過環境部登一個同一個案場環境部登記的公司跟經紀部登記的公司居然不一樣這沒有問題嗎你們到現在也沒回覆然後說因為他改善完成所以600萬不用罰結果一報你看現場"},{"start":18606.238,"end":18627.187,"text":"浮桶 碎片 那個名稱不一樣是因為那個電業的登記申請的開發商然後後面的那個是所謂的運尾的這個廠商名稱是不一樣原因在這裡那另外一個部分我剛剛只去問一下我們的同仁他10月7號他就有去現場看不管是在水面"},{"start":18628.347,"end":18646.214,"text":"這個水面的部分還有包括在周邊原來指定的站準場的這個部分這裡面全部都已經大概都已經清除完了當然剛剛委員所說的早上那些的照片我們還要再去確認因為我們去檢查的時候確實是沒有的"},{"start":18647.148,"end":18674.797,"text":"好我覺得環境部經濟部我真的這個溝通很重要啊9月16號環境部公佈的總共1萬多片結果經濟部10月7號公佈的4萬8千多片這落差真的太大了那我覺得這個我們那時候還有講了其實地方廠商也有在講因為這光電板的規格尺寸大小不一樣造成他們要回收處理造成"},{"start":18675.777,"end":18701.281,"text":"非常非常的麻煩啦所以當然這個回收的量能絕對就會減慢它的速度所以我們講這規格尺寸真的要好好研議一下這個規格尺寸一樣到時候再回收處理才會好處理才會迅速嘛好那還有我們今天有針對我們噪音管制法修法的部分"},{"start":18702.996,"end":18725.741,"text":"那我這邊也特別說明一下因為我們真的在地方接收到很多的陳情尤其桃園標車組非常猖獗長期干擾民眾夜間的安寧很多老人家或者上班族一被吵醒根本都沒辦法睡對於他們真的是很大的困擾所以我希望"},{"start":18726.721,"end":18751.484,"text":"交通部還有環境部應該怎麼研議這個取締的問題如何降低違規改裝還有青少年無照駕駛的問題我也希望部長針對這個罰則是不是要加重罰則加強取締不然這個問題真的困擾我相信台灣很多民眾對這個飆車族噪音的問題困擾大家很久了"},{"start":18752.312,"end":18781.625,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議 這個我們就遵照大院要修法的指示我們本部願意配合辦理那這部分我也希望環境部還有交通部大家為民眾的這個夜間安寧能夠多幫忙好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝全局委員的發言謝謝部長們的回應下一位我們請楊耀文發言謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長"},{"start":18782.355,"end":18802.228,"text":"好 又請彭部長楊委員好部長好 部長我先跟你討論一下廢棄物清理法的修法問題順便先講一下就是因為各部會要來開委員會大概都會先送書面資料過來所以以後"},{"start":18804.062,"end":18831.114,"text":"口頭報告就是檢藥就好了因為胃環實在太血汗了我第一班飛機來最後一班有的時候很怕會趕不及所以那事實上就是先送書面委員大概或者辦公室大概也都看過了嘛對不對所以在這邊念太久也不大好好"},{"start":18834.977,"end":18863.378,"text":"部長我們廢棄物清理法呢就是你們現在在修正要把光電板納入應回收的廢棄物目標是在拆解光電板中可以再利用的材料然後以利循環再利用那這個方向是好的可是呢"},{"start":18866.826,"end":18881.811,"text":"有業者指出一般來講太陽能板是這樣子除了老舊或回損才會汰換以外就是因為新型的東西一直出來"},{"start":18883.072,"end":18904.788,"text":"那新型的東西它的發電效能可能更好所以有一些業者他會提前汰換要不然一般的太陽能光板的壽命大概有20年到25年他提前汰換國內現在有沒有充足的回收量能可以因應提前汰換的太陽能光板"},{"start":18905.336,"end":18931.141,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個目前有四家啦但是我們覺得未來如果多一點的話讓它的價格往下降一點點應該有機會達成更多而且現在那幾家都在北部我們希望中南部也有幾家能夠來營運做這些事情就現在有四家可是因為因為太陽光板回收的量其實沒有那麼大對 很少所以這四家就是營運上會比較"},{"start":18932.509,"end":18960.441,"text":"就是在風災之前基本上都沒什麼生意所以你覺得是足夠的我覺得目前是夠啦但是因為因為我們以前從來沒有過真的回收開始進行這個市場機制那這次呢是因為大量的風災那麼大大量的量然後進來然後就產生出有的廠商他自己也還開始正式的去營運所以有的做的OK有的"},{"start":18961.241,"end":18970.309,"text":"就是沒有辦法有這個量能所以我們其實這次是一個很好檢驗的機會那我們也希望未來能夠多幾家能夠一起來做這個事情"},{"start":18972.521,"end":18991.875,"text":"太陽光板回收的利潤是不是很低如果按照目前這次的風災來看的話利潤不高啦但是他們其實利潤高不高就看他的回收率他們有些老闆很厲害他可以做什麼樣的應用他還可以有他的價值那如果他只是一個拆解"},{"start":18992.475,"end":19017.781,"text":"那他就要去很多的這個用處的話那就基本上沒什麼利潤也就是一開始我們講的嘛就是看怎麼讓他再利用嘛有哪一些材料可以弄出來那廠商 不同的廠商技術面不同所以才會有差異現在有的有幾家是還不錯也有一些是還有一點落差我們希望能夠到達一個水準"},{"start":19017.961,"end":19040.428,"text":"因為我覺得太陽光板日後回收會是一個大問題因為這一次是風災嘛所以就像部長剛剛講的也沒有錯就是剛好讓我們有一個測試的機會不過還是要提早因應因為太陽光板既然是國家"},{"start":19043.849,"end":19059.175,"text":"重大的政策在推動所以相關的問題還是要先做好準備是 我們現在在努力這樣做還是一樣是太陽能光板就是環境部修正開發行為"},{"start":19061.817,"end":19079.783,"text":"應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準你們1月份修了嗎我們是針對山坡地還有一個敏感地區我們在今年1月的時候有公告敏感地區包括國家公園 水庫等等不包括水庫"},{"start":19082.879,"end":19097.423,"text":"對對對不包括水庫但是未來因為這次水面型的光電大家都有很重視啦所以我們的確有在研議但是也跟委員報告因為還沒有一個國家針對水面型的光電有任何環評認定的標準所以我們也在討論這個事情對"},{"start":19100.784,"end":19125.129,"text":"這個就是我要問的就是說假如說因為太陽光板台灣畢竟搞不好相對於其他國家我們是相對推動沒有那麼進度上沒有那麼快的那假如說世界各國都沒有這樣子的都沒有把它納入環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":19126.604,"end":19133.338,"text":"我們為什麼要思考這個方向或者是部長先說明一下為什麼世界各國"},{"start":19134.502,"end":19163.405,"text":"都認為不用謝謝委員因為最主要是說太陽光電它跟一般的工廠或是有污染的這個場域開發行為是不一樣的它是把太陽能轉化成能源所以它基本上是一個永續的能源所以這是要鼓勵的啦所以各個國家說真的有環評也是這幾年才認定的標準它畢竟跟工廠會直接蓋下去就一直污染會不一樣所以基本上只要能夠跟環境做更好的融合都是鼓勵的啦"},{"start":19163.945,"end":19191.503,"text":"所以我們其實在看的這個所有國際上的資料也都是如此但是我們也知道說台灣地小人稠那大家會對於環境有更多的關心那我們當然除了要澄清很多的錯誤訊息之外我們恐怕也要讓大家能夠安心希望能夠他做得更好一點點因為全世界沒有一個地方像台灣竹安出現了十幾萬片的光電板的毀損這個是我們或許我們訂這樣的一個制度是有必要的而且是符合大家的期待的"},{"start":19192.214,"end":19210.803,"text":"部長 我覺得是這樣子就是說風災造成很多太陽能管板的毀損這是一回事水庫設置太陽能管板需不需要環評這是另外一個層次的問題"},{"start":19212.103,"end":19233.936,"text":"所以我剛剛才會先提說為什麼世界各國都沒有做這樣子的要求我們卻必須要去做研議當然水庫因為我一開始的想法是不是它影響日照所以會對水質有影響"},{"start":19237.436,"end":19252.944,"text":"其實基本上科學上是沒有問題的但是我們發現台灣的民眾很擔憂然後很擔憂他影響到環境所以我們環評的功能就是讓大家有疑慮的這個地方在我們環評這個部分幫大家來做把關"},{"start":19254.414,"end":19275.711,"text":"副長我並不反對啦我不是反對我只是還是要講說民眾的擔憂有的時候是脫離科學根據的那執政者的責任就是必須要把問題釐清把資訊公開清楚的宣達"},{"start":19277.456,"end":19294.236,"text":"而不是用一個假如說不相干這個我不知道我必須要先聲明我也不是反對把它納入如果假如說全世界都沒有這樣子的例子說在水庫上"},{"start":19295.638,"end":19321.805,"text":"架設太陽光板必須要納入環境影響評估那我們要成為世界的首創這個是不是要找到一些科學的根據來說服因為有的時候就是當然環境很重要所以真的有影響的一定要納入可是假如說全球都沒有那我們要納入"},{"start":19323.405,"end":19350.484,"text":"那如果以後會產生一個問題就是環境的兼顧假如說本來就不需要那反而多了一套程序來影響行政效率這個可能部裡面要再做一下研究假如看看為什麼全世界都不需要"},{"start":19351.656,"end":19365.549,"text":"它的理由是什麼 跟台灣到底有什麼差別那不能 理由不能只是台灣有一次12.1萬片的毀損我們就把它納入 我覺得這個就是"},{"start":19374.637,"end":19398.698,"text":"不正當的連結啦好不好我贊同委員的觀點我們會來用科學數據的方法來討論有必要納入那當然環境的維護是最重要的當然還是要假如沒有必要反而弄了一套制度出來影響行政效率這個對國家沒有幫助好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":19403.518,"end":19406.06,"text":"好謝謝楊耀委員發言請陳瑩委員發言麻煩請那個部長尹鵬部長"},{"start":19432.623,"end":19446.83,"text":"陳委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多這個光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的這個回收跟現況的問題"},{"start":19449.901,"end":19470.9,"text":"我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建置太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建置的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对好"},{"start":19471.67,"end":19500.048,"text":"那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這一次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理"},{"start":19501.601,"end":19526.859,"text":"包圍沒有 這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能"},{"start":19528.289,"end":19550.203,"text":"是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣"},{"start":19552.818,"end":19567.877,"text":"其实我这个简报上就是因为在这个1000元每千瓦1000元的这个设计上我们其实他当然主要原先设计是说支应回收技术研发然后辅导处理设厂"},{"start":19570.459,"end":19593.787,"text":"對 福島處理這個這個處理 對不起福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災 天災 意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮"},{"start":19595,"end":19621.689,"text":"要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限"},{"start":19622.99,"end":19636.889,"text":"這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助"},{"start":19639.311,"end":19656.177,"text":"其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的"},{"start":19657.097,"end":19680.416,"text":"那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況"},{"start":19681.957,"end":19710.236,"text":"那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗"},{"start":19711.217,"end":19721.996,"text":"為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害的"},{"start":19723.345,"end":19743.597,"text":"我舉一個苗栗這家老闆很認真他會想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":19747.839,"end":19777.121,"text":"最后再回收有价值的这些的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厉害了但是我们来看一下说它的分布问题有没有区域垄断的问题的确现在这次因为在桃园或是苗栗它从嘉义运上去那个运输的成本就很贵所以我们就一直考虑到说中南部应该一定要有才会解决这个问题以后如果还有"},{"start":19778.331,"end":19804.164,"text":"這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸"},{"start":19806.425,"end":19824.935,"text":"成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠"},{"start":19826.036,"end":19852.351,"text":"那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天"},{"start":19853.471,"end":19880.692,"text":"點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況"},{"start":19882.869,"end":19905.1,"text":"這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題"},{"start":19907.445,"end":19935.701,"text":"我不太明白你说的其他的成本还有例如像什么就是那个处理厂商他可能有两个收入一个就是我们那个循环署以后给他一个补贴的钱另外一个他就是说他会再跟那个对方收一笔钱那么这两笔钱里面我们不可能让他同时存在我们一定是取里面的比如说我们给他定额那超过的部分那他就不会再接受了我们的那个补贴"},{"start":19937.497,"end":19962.47,"text":"我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的這個回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解"},{"start":19962.89,"end":19983.702,"text":"但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的"},{"start":19986.103,"end":20010.839,"text":"投入龐大的資金如果說沒有辦法拿到這個D2528的資格等於說他們前面的投資都是白花了因此我們台灣就沒有辦法導入國外先進的這些回收技術也就沒有辦法就落實這個循環經濟這件事情我想請教部長就是說光電板明明它不是一般的廢棄物為什麼要先取得加以及廢棄物處理許可廠商"},{"start":20013.678,"end":20025.077,"text":"我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦那至於說這個如何減少它的一個負擔我們可以來想辦法"},{"start":20027.768,"end":20055.456,"text":"是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資"},{"start":20056.036,"end":20070.85,"text":"對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議"},{"start":20072.287,"end":20092.845,"text":"不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時"},{"start":20099.59,"end":20125.388,"text":"也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間"},{"start":20126.758,"end":20154.418,"text":"可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告"},{"start":20155.267,"end":20179.096,"text":"好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝陳英委員發言那蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在那本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":20180.709,"end":20192.322,"text":"現在做以下決定及決議第一報告說明及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內已書面答覆"},{"start":20196.772,"end":20210.46,"text":"委員另要求期限者從期所定第三噪音管制法部分修部分條文修正草案等9案並則期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}