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剛有提到刺針飛彈確實因為國際局勢中間有經過COVID-19也經過俄烏戰爭因為美國32次援助烏克蘭刺針飛彈所以交貨是有遲延 但是那個遲延在2024、23年吧 5月24號拜登總統用總統撥款權撥了154億元"},{"start":36.67,"end":48.225,"text":"就是撥四針飛彈來就是補足交貨來不及的戰備需求這個剛才在詢答的時候我覺得我們部會首長未必是那個主管部會未必了解這個要清楚讓他知道我印象是2023年5月24號"},{"start":51.889,"end":70.868,"text":"拜登總統的PDA總統撥款權撥了154億台幣的次增飛彈裝備撥交台灣好回到沈永中副主委是我的問題很簡單所以我們來看國際事件像中國的種種的高峰會Summit等等你不能單點去看它"},{"start":72.557,"end":95.331,"text":"就像我們看台灣跟我們重要的盟友之間不管是阿聯酋或者是以色列或者是美國在非洲之角的索馬利蘭的布局你也不能單點或距離遙遠去看他他都有很多地緣政治對國家利益有關的事情所以我要請教你的是如果你去看習近平最近很忙啊"},{"start":96.417,"end":122.624,"text":"前陣子忙著抓他們自己的將軍 抓掉一大堆他們的中將 少將以上有一個連的將軍都不見了抓抓起來鬥起來 差不多一個連他最近的跟相關的會晤從比較小規模的所謂的習政會因為習近平不喜歡叫政習會就跟鄭麗文 跟國民黨長主席見了面然後就要回去了接下來是川普跟習近平的高峰會"},{"start":123.894,"end":151.562,"text":"走了之後川普跟普丁的高峰會走了之後換這個習近平跟普丁走了之後換習近平跟金正恩的高峰會這幾個會幾乎是連續的喔在一個月內左右發生那陸委會組長對中國相關的工作當然我們國安局也是負責相關的情報收集跟資源請問一下這幾場會它有什麼目的它是每一個都是獨立偶發的"},{"start":152.722,"end":175.337,"text":"或者是有關聯的是非常謝謝委員的提醒我想以時間點來講還有以這個整個會務的這個背景來講還有他們共同的交集來講的話絕對不是偶發的就像剛剛委員提醒的這些會議基本上他們都有一個背後的大鋪排跟大的一個結構在我們可以注意到這幾場會議都有一個共同的交集跟共同的議題那就是一中原則那就是台海問題"},{"start":176.178,"end":205.507,"text":"那就是要怎麼樣去解決把台灣問題當成是中國的內政問題去做一個這樣子的錯誤敘事所以我們陸委會的觀察是這樣中共對台的這個政策來講其實我們不斷的提醒就是兩促兩反就是要促進融合促進統一促統促融合然後另外兩反的話就是要反獨反介入那我們會看到說這幾場會議他都在做這些事情而且是按照不同的對象在做不同的這樣子的一個敘事然後整個是包裝起來是一套組合權的這個方式那對台灣我們要注意什麼"},{"start":206.606,"end":225.684,"text":"對 所以我們會看到說他對美國來講的話那我們要繼續的暢通跟美國的一個溝通並且確保跟美國共同的利益因為我們看到這次的川習會他就是在講反讀 反介入 反對軍售那比較遺憾的就是說我們也會看到說在台灣也有一些反對軍售的這樣子的一些這種爭議在喔我請國安局長一起上來齁這個後面介入問題跟你有關 繼續生不住欸"},{"start":228.226,"end":253.553,"text":"那我們也看到說在這個習政會的時候確實就是在做剛剛說的這個促統促融合來推進對於台灣的這樣子的一種統戰的這個作為那對於這個普丁還有對於金正恩的這個會晤來講我們觀察到就是他企圖要去鞏固他在威權國家中他不是一個民主陣營喔是在威權國家中的一個領導地位然後要畫清楚他的這個一中政策的一個敘事喔所以中國的目的很簡單就是要改變現狀就是要併吞台灣喔"},{"start":254.113,"end":274.702,"text":"那他利用這幾場的這個峰會不管是在對國際敘事來講甚至是對於台灣內部來講都有達到分化的這樣子的一個作用OK 那個國安局齁其實剛才沈副主委講的就是中國大概就是兩隻手 一隻手呢他希望對台 他其實併吞台灣不管是用融合或者所謂的促統"},{"start":276.55,"end":304.735,"text":"他是要把台灣併吞下去所以希望在台灣的國內有應和的聲音有附和的力量那在國際上呢去阻止國際上對台灣的支援阻止台灣在國際上被看見另外結合像金正恩啊 普丁這種威權獨裁國家呢好像有一群人站在那邊在反對台灣的國際地位大概做法是這樣子這裡面除了情報收集以外"},{"start":305.535,"end":333.566,"text":"有沒有法律面的問題比方說我們在台灣台灣在走向國際的時候如果有人接受中國的指令去阻止台灣在國際社會上的被看見阻止台灣提升我們的自我防衛力量我們總是有一條法律的界線嘛意見表達自由的意思 OK但受命 受中共之命而為之那就違法的問題了國安局有沒有去研究有沒有看到這樣的個案"},{"start":335.647,"end":354.696,"text":"第一部分就是說中共的一些國際場合的操作一方面當然就是去推出所謂的一中原則把台灣問題給內政化希望外力不要去介入台海的事務另一方面他們主要的操作是在國際上現在開始把台灣當成一種麻煩製造者認為軍售台灣會升高區域的緊張跟衝突透過這樣的一個敘事來希望孤立台灣跟國際的合作跟連結目前國際的反應怎麼樣"},{"start":362.711,"end":380.464,"text":"我想就美國來講他們已經很清楚來說明對台政策沒有改變對台軍售的立場沒有改變那另外我也應該注意到不管美國國會或世界上各個其他的理內相近國家也都表述對於台灣維持這個安全跟自主地位的一個支持有沒有法律的紅線在那裡我剛才講"},{"start":381.485,"end":406.138,"text":"自由表達你要統要獨要成為火星人月球人那你的自由但如果接受中共的指令甚至於收到金錢或相關的資源這總是一條法律的線嘛目前又有這種現象好這部分大概國安局的夜館這邊我們比較注意的是有沒有國內的中共的協力者在接受中共的指示或資助之下去發展組織或是去借選"},{"start":406.778,"end":432.401,"text":"或是去竊取國家機密那假如有的話我們就會啟動我們的機制把相關的事證提供給檢調單位來查辦那這個部分我們再繼續來加強查查有這樣的案子嗎有的案內容對有的話我們都只要有這樣的一個事證我們都會處理我請外交部長一併上來啦剛才這個國安局長有特別提到這個中國當然他有一些希望孤立台灣嘛把台灣變內政化嘛把台海變內海化嘛"},{"start":434.002,"end":462.33,"text":"那我們當然很遺憾國內有一些人附和了中國做法把自己國家我們國家中華民國台灣維持現狀或者不管叫什麼名稱他總是我們兩千三百萬人共同擁有的主權國民主權也是我們自己大家所生存的地方這個國家一旦被併吞了什麼政黨競爭啊什麼的那個都沒有意義了國家存續很重要所以我們當然國內有一些人去依附去附和這樣的聲音那"},{"start":463.917,"end":484.774,"text":"這個是遺憾的事情踩到法律面我是認為不管是泛夫走卒達官貴卒踩到法律面該辦就辦但我要請教外交部就是說現在有一個現象就是我們比較擔心的是中國這些做法有沒有產生實質的效果我的問題很簡單我們都看到美國海軍的代理部長"},{"start":487.236,"end":513.394,"text":"在出席參議院聽證會 我印象是Mitch McConnell問他問題他有表達了一些所謂的對台 他沒有講141喔 他講對台軍售因為伊朗啊 因為憤怒之火暫停可是有意思 他在同一段這個證詞裡面 他有講出說這個職權是屬於Rubio跟Hexes 其實不是他的職權"},{"start":515.089,"end":527.71,"text":"就你來看 就兩位目前有關川普新一筆對台軍售不管金額多少因為金額還沒有宣布我們不知道你們怎麼看這個事件"},{"start":529.551,"end":557.625,"text":"因為不管戰爭部或國務院都已經針對所謂高雄這個海軍代理部長的談話已經澄清了而且他也不是這個政策的負責人或單位所以應該是很清楚而且美國跟我們也說明了對台的政策包括軍售沒有改變所以高雄是一個對他非他業務內容在聽證會的時候即席答詢因為那個答詢我看得蠻有意思的因為前幾天是他們的戰爭部長Hexes去作證"},{"start":559.126,"end":575.541,"text":"講了三四次說我們對伊朗的彈藥裝備絕對沒有欠缺那高雄在那邊講說因為彈藥我們必須更齊備所以暫緩對台軍作這兩個訊息其實是矛盾的他後來又講說那個是Rubio-Hexes的問題所以你怎麼去詮釋高雄"},{"start":576.522,"end":604.247,"text":"很萬人不了解美國的所謂的海軍部長什麼部長那個是政治任命海軍的業務他並不是主責的主責是有另外的人但他這個說法你們怎麼去詮釋他或怎麼回應他因為外界很關心我們當然也會去溝通那從美國方得到的訊息就是他並不是代表美國的立場或是一個這個負責的業務的人所以你認為沒有影響沒有影響好那我回到下一個問題AIT在5月21號"},{"start":606.267,"end":626.943,"text":"丟了一個聲明出來AIT的中文解也蠻好的這個聲明兩大段落第一個是對台政策承諾不變而且美國不同政黨的政府都有一致性因為我們都知道AIT不會自己發這個函啦這一定是從美國國務院來的第二段更有意思"},{"start":628.332,"end":643.723,"text":"穩定的美中關係跟強健的美台夥伴關係他們不認為有衝突會持續深化這意思是兩邊各自發展關係沒有誰是誰的籌碼的問題我先請教蔡局長國安局對於高雄到這個AIT這個聲明你們怎麼評估"},{"start":646.529,"end":662.655,"text":"他在國會的談話事實上剛剛外交部也說明了包括美國國務院跟美國的國防部都有在重申對台政策的立場沒有改變那也算是做了某種程度的一個澄清所以你們認為也是沒變對 那外交部怎麼去看AIT這份聲明他有什麼意義在裡面"},{"start":663.868,"end":689.125,"text":"報告委員這個聲明相當完整這也是國務院的立場那除了這美中關係跟美台關係是可以並行的啦我跟你講這是多年來大家努力的結果它是美台跟美中我也不妨礙你去交朋友又不是幼兒園說你是他的朋友就不是我的朋友我們沒有這個事情嘛但這裡面其實在回答一件事情台灣不是美中談判的籌碼因為這是並行不備的分別獨立的個案"},{"start":689.605,"end":711.881,"text":"我再補充委員,其實古立言處長在521的時候接受專訪,有一段談法是非常關鍵,他說針對對台軍售強調美國對台政策不變,且以明確向中方表達此立場。美方持續關切台海現狀遭逐步侵蝕,原高度重視透過強化台灣自我防衛能力,重建台海平衡。"},{"start":712.701,"end":730.296,"text":"美方亦歡迎賴總統重申維持兩岸現狀並希望北京不設前提與台灣民選領導人交流就是說其實在面對的是中共在片面的改變現狀而且是以武力跟脅迫的方式所以我們需要再平衡我知道主席站起來了我最後三十秒我其實最後要問你們六項保證對台六項保證"},{"start":731.477,"end":757.751,"text":"川普在川習會後所做的一些動作或說法你們認為六項保證有沒有受影響許不需要關切美方對台的軍售政策並沒有受影響或因此改變這個是據台灣關係法衍生出來那六項保證怎麼去解釋這個因為引起各界的關注包括國會你們認為六項保證可能未來也會針對這個東西有更進一步的發展包括國會部長你趕時間我問局長"},{"start":762.588,"end":785.534,"text":"我就六項保證川普在川習會後的動作跟說法就我們國家政府來講第一個他有沒有改變鬆動或者值得我們注意的副相訊號在裡面對我剛才跟其他委員在說明了我們在看川習會有一部分要看的是美國長期既定的政策有一部分是外交辭令有一部分是川普在即席現場個人的言辭對我們不同層次的分析"},{"start":785.874,"end":792.844,"text":"那就這一部分來講美國駐中大使也已經重新的聲明他們的立場對台的六項保證政策沒有改變好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:53:00.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:53:03.275000+08:00","text":"今天比較沒有人問到陸委會，請陸委會沈副主委。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-25T11:53:04.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:53:05.939000+08:00","text":"請陸委會副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:53:06.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:53:59.577000+08:00","text":"我提醒國安局、外交部，因為國防部官員不在這裡，現在你們不用出來，剛才提到刺針飛彈，確實因為國際局勢中間有經過COVID-19，也經過俄烏戰爭，因為美國32次援助烏克蘭刺針飛彈，所以交貨是有遲延，但那個遲延在2024年還是2023年的5月24號，拜登總統用總統撥款權撥了154億元，就是刺針飛彈部分，補足交貨來不及的戰備需求，這個剛才在詢答的時候我覺得部會首長未必是那個主管部會、未必了解，這個要清楚讓他知道，我印象中2023年5月24號拜登總統的PDA總統撥款權，撥了154億臺幣的刺針飛彈裝備撥交臺灣。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:53:59.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:54:00.978000+08:00","text":"回過頭來，我跟副主委請教。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:54:00.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T11:54:02.399000+08:00","text":"是，委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:54:02.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:54:30.828000+08:00","text":"我的問題很簡單，我們來看國際事件，像中國種種的高峰會、summit等等，你不能單點去看它，就像看臺灣跟我們重要的盟友之間，不管是阿聯酋、以色列，或者是美國在非洲之角索馬利蘭的布局，你也不能單點或距離遙遠地去看它，因為都有很多地緣政治上與國家利益有關的事情。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:54:31.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:54:47.060000+08:00","text":"所以我要請教你，習近平最近很忙，前一陣子忙著抓他們自己的將軍、抓掉一大堆，他們的中將、少將以上有一個連的將軍都不見了，抓一抓、湊起來差不多是一個連了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:54:47.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:54:59.383000+08:00","text":"他最近相關的會晤，從比較小規模的所謂習鄭會，因為習近平不喜歡叫鄭習會，就是跟鄭麗文、國民黨黨主席見了面，然後就要他回去了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:55:00.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:55:19.178000+08:00","text":"接下來是川普跟習近平的高峰會，走了之後，是習近平跟普丁的高峰會，走了之後換習近平跟金正恩的高峰會，這幾個會幾乎是連續的，在一個月內左右發生。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:55:20.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:55:28.961000+08:00","text":"陸委會主掌對中國相關的工作，國安局也是負責相關的情報蒐集跟資研，請問一下這幾場會他有什麼目的？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:55:30.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:55:33.683000+08:00","text":"每一個都是獨立、偶發的或者有關聯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:55:34.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:55:48.993000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員的提醒，我想以時間點、整個會晤的背景以及他們共同的交集來講的話，絕對不是偶發的，就像剛剛委員提醒的，這些會議基本上背後都有一個大的鋪排跟結構在。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:55:49.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:01.780000+08:00","text":"我們可以注意到這幾場會議都有一個共同的交集跟共同的議題，那就是一中原則、臺海問題，就是要怎麼樣解決，把臺灣問題當成是中國的內政問題去做這樣子的錯誤敘事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:02.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:14.724000+08:00","text":"陸委會的觀察是這樣，中共對臺的政策來講，其實我們不斷地提醒，就是兩促兩反，促進融合、促進統一，促統、促融合；另外，兩反的話就是要反獨、反介入。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:15.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:24.507000+08:00","text":"我們會看到這幾場會議他都在做這些事情，而且是按照不同的對象在做不同的這樣子的敘事，整個包裝起來是一套組合拳的方式。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:24.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:25.507000+08:00","text":"那他對臺灣，我們要注意什麼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:26.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:32.952000+08:00","text":"所以我們會看到，他對美國來講的話，我們要繼續暢通跟美國的溝通，並且確保跟美國共同的利益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:33.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:37.156000+08:00","text":"因為我們看到這次川習會，他就是在講反獨、反介入、反對軍售。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:37.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:42.961000+08:00","text":"比較遺憾的就是，我們看到在臺灣也有一些反對軍售的這種爭議，所以……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:43.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:45.564000+08:00","text":"我請國安局局長一起上來好了，後面接著的問題跟你有關。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:45.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:45.564000+08:00","text":"繼續，沈副主委。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:48.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:56:56.528000+08:00","text":"我們也看到，在習鄭會的時候，確實就是在做剛剛說的促統、促融合來推進對臺灣的一種統戰作為。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:56:56.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:57:09.772000+08:00","text":"而對於普丁還有金正恩的會晤來講，我們觀察到，他們不是一個民主陣營，他企圖要去鞏固他在威權國家中的領導地位，要劃清楚他一中政策的敘事。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-05-25T11:57:10.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:57:21.376000+08:00","text":"所以中國的目的很簡單，就是要改變現狀、併吞臺灣，他利用這幾場峰會，不管是對國際敘事來講，甚至是對臺灣內部來講，都有達到分化的作用。OK。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:57:21.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:02.074000+08:00","text":"國安局，其實剛才沈副主委講的就是，中國大概兩隻手，一隻手他希望對臺……他其實是要併吞臺灣，不管是用融合或者所謂的促統，他是要把臺灣併吞下去，所以希望在臺灣國內有應和的聲音、有附和的力量；而在國際上，去阻止國際上對臺灣的支援、阻止臺灣在國際上被看見，另外結合像金正恩、普丁這種威權、獨裁國家，好像有一群人站在那邊反對臺灣的國際地位，大概做法是這樣子。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:03.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:07.576000+08:00","text":"這裡面除了情報蒐集以外，有沒有法律面的問題？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:07.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:23.102000+08:00","text":"比方臺灣走向國際的時候，如果有人接受中國的指令，去阻止臺灣在國際社會上被看見、阻止臺灣提升我們的自我防衛力量，我們總是有一條法律的界線嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:23.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:25.323000+08:00","text":"意見表達、自由的意識，OK！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:25.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:30.084000+08:00","text":"但受命、受中共之命而為之，那個就有違法的問題了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:30.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:33.546000+08:00","text":"國安局有沒有去研究、有沒有看到這樣的個案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:35.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:40.909000+08:00","text":"大概兩部分，第一個部分，中共的一些國際場合的操作，一方面……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:40.909000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:41.909000+08:00","text":"副主委請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:41.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:47.973000+08:00","text":"一方面當然就是推促所謂的一中原則，把臺灣的問題內政化，希望外力不要介入臺海事務。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:47.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:54.596000+08:00","text":"另一方面，他們主要的操作是，在國際上，現在開始把臺灣當成一種麻煩製造者，認為軍售臺灣會升高區域的緊張跟衝突，透過這樣的敘事，希望孤立臺灣跟國際的合作跟連結。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:58:54.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:58:54.696000+08:00","text":"他這樣的敘事，目前國際的反應怎麼樣？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:02.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:08.836000+08:00","text":"我想就美國來講，他們已經很清楚地說明對臺政策沒有改變、對臺軍售的立場沒有改變。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:08.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:18.523000+08:00","text":"另外，委員應該也注意到，不管美國國會或世界上其他各個理念相近的國家，也都表述對於臺灣維持安全跟自主地位的支持。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:18.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:20.344000+08:00","text":"有沒有法律的紅線在那裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:20.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:31.970000+08:00","text":"我剛才講，自由表達，你要統、要獨，要成為火星人、月球人，那是你的自由，但是如果接受中共的指令，甚至於收到金錢或相關的資源，這總是要有一條法律的線嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:31.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:33.031000+08:00","text":"有，這一部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:33.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:34.112000+08:00","text":"目前有沒有這種現象？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:34.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:48.159000+08:00","text":"這一部分大概國安局的業管這邊我們比較注意的是，有沒有國內的中共協力者，在接受中共的指示或資助之下去發展組織、介選或是竊取國家機密？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:48.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:55.366000+08:00","text":"假如有的話，我們就會啟動我們的機制，把相關的事證提供給檢調單位查辦，這個部分我們再繼續加強查察。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:56.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:58.048000+08:00","text":"有這樣的案子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:58.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T11:59:58.508000+08:00","text":"我不是問個案的內容。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T11:59:59.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:01.611000+08:00","text":"有的話我們都……只要有這樣的事證我們都會處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:02.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:03.193000+08:00","text":"我請外交部長一併上來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:03.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:12.341000+08:00","text":"剛才國安局局長有特別提到，中國當然是希望孤立臺灣，把臺灣內政化，把臺海內海化。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:14.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:29.886000+08:00","text":"我們當然很遺憾，國內有一些人附和了中國的作法，把自己的國家……我們國家──中華民國（臺灣）維持現狀，或者不管叫什麼名稱，它總是我們2,300萬人共同擁有的國民主權，也是我們大家生存的地方。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:30.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:37.949000+08:00","text":"這個國家一旦被併吞了，政黨競爭或那個什麼都沒有意義了，國家存續很重要。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:39.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:00:51.664000+08:00","text":"當國內有一些人去依附、去附和這樣的聲音，這個是遺憾的事情，我認為不管是販夫走卒、達官貴人，只要踩到法律面該辦就辦。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:00:51.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:01:00.371000+08:00","text":"但我要請教外交部，現在有一個現象，我們比較擔心的是，中國的這些作法有沒有產生實質的效果？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:01:00.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:01:23.927000+08:00","text":"我的問題很簡單，我們都看到美國海軍的acting，也就是那個代理部長，他出席參議院聽證會，印象中Mitch McConnell問他問題時，他表達了一些所謂的對臺軍售……他沒有講140億，他是講對臺軍售因為伊朗、因為憤怒之火而要暫停。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:01:24.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:01:33.394000+08:00","text":"可是很有意思的是，他在同一段的證詞裡面又講，這個職權是屬於Rubio跟Hegseth的，而不是他的職權。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:01:35.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:01:47.690000+08:00","text":"就兩位來看，目前有關川普新一筆的對臺軍售，不管金額多少，因為金額還沒有宣布，我們不知道，你們怎麼看這個事件？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:01:50.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:06.740000+08:00","text":"不管是戰爭部還是國務院，都已經針對高雄（海軍代理部長）的談話澄清了，而且他也不是這個政策的負責人或單位，所以應該是很清楚……而且美國也跟我們說明了，對臺的政策包括軍售並沒有改變。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:06.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:12.883000+08:00","text":"所以高雄是對非他業務的內容，在聽證會的時候即席答詢的。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:12.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:23.370000+08:00","text":"那個答詢我是看得蠻有意思的，前幾天他們的戰爭部長Hegseth去做證，講了三、四次：我們對伊朗的彈藥、裝備絕對沒有欠缺。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:24.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:35.521000+08:00","text":"高雄就在那邊講：因為彈藥我們必須更齊備，所以暫緩對臺軍售，這兩個訊息其實是矛盾的，他後來又講那個是Rubio、Hegseth的問題所以你怎麼去詮釋高雄的說法？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:36.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:48.264000+08:00","text":"因為可能外人不了解，美國所謂的海軍部長、什麼部長，那個是政治任命，海軍的業務並不是他主責的，有另外的人主責，但對於他的這個說法，你們會怎麼詮釋或怎麼回應他？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:48.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:02:50.944000+08:00","text":"因為外界很關心，我們當然也會去溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:02:52.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:00.546000+08:00","text":"從美方得到的訊息是，他並不是代表美國的立場或是一個負責這個業務的人。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:00.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:01.826000+08:00","text":"所以你認為沒有影響？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:01.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:02.386000+08:00","text":"沒有影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:02.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:03.307000+08:00","text":"好，那我回到下一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:03.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:20.878000+08:00","text":"AIT在5月21號丟了一個聲明出來，AIT的中文其實也蠻好的，這個聲明有兩大段落，第一個是對臺政策承諾不變，而且美國不同政黨的政府都有一致性。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:21.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:24.801000+08:00","text":"因為我們都知道AIT不會自己發這個函，這一定是從美國國務院來的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:25.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:34.096000+08:00","text":"第二段更有意思，穩定的美中關係跟強健的美臺夥伴關係，他們不認為有衝突，會持續深化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:34.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:34.637000+08:00","text":"這個意思你知道嗎？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:36.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:40.401000+08:00","text":"兩邊各自發展關係，沒有誰是誰的籌碼的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:40.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:43.703000+08:00","text":"我先請教蔡局長，國安局對於高雄和AIT的這個聲明，你們怎麼評估？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:46.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:56.873000+08:00","text":"他在國會的談話事實上剛剛外交部也說明了，包括美國的國務院跟美國的國防部都有再重申對臺政策的立場沒有改變，這也算是做了某種程度的澄清。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:57.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:03:59.794000+08:00","text":"所以你們也認為沒變？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:03:59.794000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:00.794000+08:00","text":"對，沒有改變。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:00.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:01.655000+08:00","text":"外交部怎麼去看AIT的這份聲明？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:01.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:02.635000+08:00","text":"它有什麼意義在裡面？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:03.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:08.151000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個聲明相當完整，這也是國務院的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:09.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:15.135000+08:00","text":"除了美中關係跟美臺關係是可以並行的，我想這是多年來大家努力的結果。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:15.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:21.119000+08:00","text":"不管是美臺還是美中，我也不妨礙你去交朋友，又不是幼稚園，認為你是他的朋友就不是我的朋友，我們沒有這個事情嘛！對。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:21.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:29.105000+08:00","text":"但這裡面其實是在回答一件事，臺灣不是美中談判的籌碼，因為這是並行不悖、分別獨立的個案。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:29.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:36.050000+08:00","text":"我再補充給委員，其實谷立言處長在521的時候接受專訪，有一段談話非常關鍵。請說。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:36.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:42.134000+08:00","text":"他說針對對臺軍售，強調美國對臺政策不變，且已明確向中方表達此立場。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:42.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:51.861000+08:00","text":"美方持續關切臺海現狀遭逐步侵蝕，爰高度重視透過強化臺灣自我防衛能力，重建臺海平衡。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:52.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:04:58.086000+08:00","text":"美方亦歡迎賴總統重申維持兩岸現狀，並希望北京不設前提與臺灣民選領導人交流。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:04:58.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:05.152000+08:00","text":"也就是說，其實現在要面對的是中共在片面改變現狀，而且是以武力跟脅迫的方式，所以我們需要再平衡。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:05.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:10.296000+08:00","text":"OK，主席站起來了，我最後30秒，其實我最後要問你們，有關對臺六項保證。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:11.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:17.800000+08:00","text":"川普在川習會後所做的一些動作或說法，你們認為六項保證有沒有受影響？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:18.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:19.541000+08:00","text":"需不需要關切？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:20.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:28.426000+08:00","text":"美方對臺的軍售政策並沒有受影響或因此改變，這個是基於臺灣關係法衍生出來的。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:28.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:30.527000+08:00","text":"至於那六項保證要怎麼去解釋？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:30.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:32.628000+08:00","text":"這個會引起各界的關注，包括國會……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:32.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:33.628000+08:00","text":"你們認不認為六項保證……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:33.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:37.290000+08:00","text":"可能未來也會針對這個東西有更進一步的發展，包括國會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:37.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:42.588000+08:00","text":"部長你趕時間，我問局長，我看你們同仁站在那邊了。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:43.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:05:53.591000+08:00","text":"有關六項保證，川普在川習會後的動作跟說法，就我們國家的政府來講，第一個他有沒有改變、鬆動，或者有值得我們注意的負向訊號在裡面？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:05:54.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:06:03.573000+08:00","text":"我剛剛也跟其他委員說明了，我們在看川習會，有一部分要看的是美國長期既定的政策，有一部分是外交辭令，有一部分是川普在現場個人的即席言詞。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:06:03.573000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:06:04.573000+08:00","text":"所以你們怎麼分析？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:06:04.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:06:12.824000+08:00","text":"我們有不同層次的分析，就這個部分來講，美國駐中大使也已經重新聲明他們的立場，對臺的六項保證政策沒有改變。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-05-25T12:06:12.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:06:12.844000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-25T12:06:13.344000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:06:17.058286+08:00","text":"接下來請陳冠廷召委上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}