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謝謝主席我們請這個次長有請陳次長還有蔡局長"},{"start":20.646,"end":43.539,"text":"好 兩位 看哪一位要先回答 就是說川普在離開中國 在上飛機的時候忽然間丟出一句話就是對台灣的這些跟軍售有關的這個案子要在這一個談一談 大概是這樣的一個文字國安局第一時間"},{"start":45.134,"end":56.034,"text":"你們聽到這樣的文字因為它是一個影音這樣的一個文字你們第一時間聽到以後進行研判完以後你們做了什麼事"},{"start":58.75,"end":79.155,"text":"因為這次的川習會事前我們做了一些部署來了解到說可能川習會涉及到的議題那當然我們之前我記得在立院的專報我們提到中共一定會操作所謂的四台議題那第三個是在整個過程當中我們會注意的是美國官方的說法那以及一些川普總統在接受訪談"},{"start":80.495,"end":107.98,"text":"比較即席性的一些談話我們會做一些資訊的分析那整體上看起來就像美國官方對外澄清的他們的涉台的政策還有對台的軍售立場沒有改變那因為媒體有很多的報導所以可能我也注意到美國官方也不斷的一再的在澄清這一方面的既有的立場是有一貫性的後來他給了這個文字裡頭相對對台灣是友善的就是我們看的是官方的立場文字啦就是落實的文字"},{"start":108.96,"end":113.648,"text":"那我請教這個局長,如果沒有這一場川習會你個人研判,這個所謂的140億美金的軍售案"},{"start":124.281,"end":149.907,"text":"台灣的這個軍購案會不會現在已經簽出來了對我想就台美的軍售它一定有經過我們雙方國防部門一個相關的磋商針對台灣的需求未來戰爭情況的想定那來看哪些是重要的優勢來列在相關的軍售的清單上面那後續還要走國會及總統批核的程序那這部分以我國安局的立場來講我們當然尊重"},{"start":150.327,"end":170.043,"text":"美方它相關國內的一個流程那就我們的觀察來講那美國對台的軍售它不只是台灣關係法的法律的規定那也是它長期的政策那更結合到美國在印太整體戰略的布局跟規劃非常重要的一環這個是大部分的看法但是有一些的看法是說啊就因為說這句話"},{"start":171.975,"end":185.335,"text":"習近平有跟川普說什麼,說到川普要走回去之前說要搞台灣武器的事情,還想看看你個人認為這樣的推論可不可能"},{"start":186.411,"end":209.297,"text":"對我想川普總統當然可能在那個受訪的當下他因為人在中國嘛不管是一種外交辭令還是是因為在當天的歡迎晚宴習近平不斷地在講涉台的問題讓他有這樣的印象那不過我還是建議委員除了川普在隨訪時候的一個談話以外還是可以多注意一下美國的整個行政部門在這個議題的立場的重申就是說川普離開中國之後"},{"start":214.915,"end":226.849,"text":"川普離開中國之後的美國的官方包括文字各式各樣的說法是不是就回到了川普還沒去見習近平那個基調是一貫的就是說這個去之前跟去之後整個美國的官方"},{"start":234.106,"end":259.511,"text":"談這件事情是沒有改變的而且事實上我也可以注意到啦以這段時間不是很長的時間美國官方不管是白宮國防部或那個國務院以及駐聯合國大使駐東大使還有國會相關的一些議員幾乎對於一些涉台議題的一些論述跟說法可以是非常頻密的都是在重申對台灣的支持好那現在請外交部次長"},{"start":261.095,"end":283.863,"text":"這個過程中,因為這個訊息一出來之後,我們也看到美國的部分的國會議員他們也講話了,這一件事情外交部有出道力嗎?還是就是他們講話,我們只是觀察還是我們有去跟美國的國會議員、美國的政府有做任何的溝通說"},{"start":284.743,"end":300.092,"text":"你們川普總統到底在說什麼你們也說得更清楚因為國內訊息一出來因為今天這個報告裡頭也有寫說中國單方很快速地做了一個解讀這個報告裡頭寫的我們的外交部做了什麼"},{"start":300.992,"end":319.705,"text":"我們當然是說其實跟美國包括美國政府行政單位包括跟美國的國會包括跟美國的這個政策圈都隨時保持非常密切的溝通那委員也都知道說我們國會裡面有很多的好朋友對 平常有很好的往來同時他們都非常的關心台海的和平穩定"},{"start":320.566,"end":338.96,"text":"那我想是說在那個川習會之後,那麼國會發這樣的一個聲明,聯名信等等的,我想這個我們平常都有做好很多的努力,但是這個時候他們就觀察到這個局勢,他們主動的來關切這樣的問題,那我們對這樣的東西當然是表示非常的歡迎。"},{"start":339.56,"end":366.249,"text":"因為我跟委員報告一下其實美國的這個總統當然他的這個說話非常的一個重要但還要放在一個更大的一個脈絡之下像委員非常了解那麼我比如說那麼在前任總統拜登總統任內事事提出了就是他要不管任何的代價不顧任何代價要防衛台灣但這個並沒有形成一個完整的政策"},{"start":367.229,"end":387.262,"text":"就好像這次他在講這個事情的時候,包括美國國務院、美國駐中大使,甚至說也不算是他夜館貿易代表,他也出來說話,大概傳遞的就是一個清楚的訊息,美國對台政策不變,而整個的軍售,包括整個對台灣的態度,"},{"start":387.942,"end":400.901,"text":"主權地位我想也都是在歷史這個累積起來大致上的基調是維持不變的那麼偶爾會有這個領導人他自己的一個詮釋跟他因應實際的狀況所以每次看起來這個狀況沒有很嚴重"},{"start":403.024,"end":431.839,"text":"因為大家都很緊張那我想中共在這一場川習會大概就是最大的一個效果大概是造成我們台灣的人心惶恐那麼就我們外交部的立場當然我們會盡全力去了解整個的狀況但是我們的判斷是不需要這麼樣子的惶恐美國長期的對台政策包括軍售在內這一次又再一次的重申沒有任何的改變那我再請教一下局長"},{"start":432.799,"end":445.509,"text":"局長,若是我們的賴總統叫川普說到電話,按照你的建議,電話說到會不會跟大家講?會不會說哪一天講到了,講了什麼?"},{"start":447.075,"end":470.602,"text":"這部分總統府已經有對外說明了就是說假如總統有這個機會跟川普來進行通話的話那幾個重點的論述就會幫台灣的聲音來傳遞給美方那包括台灣是區域現狀的維護者然後另外台灣也會積極地在國防投資上做一些投資那以及區域安全 總統是主要的威脅挑戰這是我們的 總統已經有列出來我們的立場啦 對對對就是說 如果說你們到底兩個說什麼"},{"start":475.463,"end":491.897,"text":"這個對外說明你覺得適合嗎對這部分由府方來做相關的評估那以及不是你要建議啊你不是都會建議那假如建議的話是在內部建議而且國安局只代表我們國安局的意見可能府方還要在綜合各個單位的意見來做總體的評估那你建議呢"},{"start":492.617,"end":505.912,"text":"那我們的建議當然是在對話過程當中可能就目前比較共同關係的議題來交換意見就有朋友在講的時候你敢不參加看到時候的一個規劃那也還涉及到相關細節的安排那就是兩位都判斷現在的狀況"},{"start":512.198,"end":535.013,"text":"並沒有我們當時第一時間看到川普在飛機上面講的那一句整個新聞一出來全台灣都緊張你們兩位現在這樣經過一段時間之後整體脈絡看起來並沒有那麼嚴重對 就美方的行政部門跟國會部門大概在這個議題上對台灣的支持表達出蠻一致的一個立場好 謝謝謝偉"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:17:35+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:17:38.055000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，怎麼突然換我就要換人了？","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:17:38.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:17:38.236000+08:00","text":"我們請次長，還有局長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-25T12:17:38.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:17:38.896000+08:00","text":"請陳次長，還有蔡局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:17:56.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:17:58.608000+08:00","text":"兩位看哪一位要先回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:18:00.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:18:16.998000+08:00","text":"川普在離開中國上飛機的時候忽然間丟出一句話，就是對臺灣這些跟軍售有關的案子要再談一談，大概是這樣的文字。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:18:17.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:18:31.014000+08:00","text":"國安局第一時間聽到這樣的文字……因為它是一段影音，你們第一時間聽到以後、進行研判完以後，你們做了什麼事？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:18:33.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:18:59.616000+08:00","text":"因為這次的川習會事前我們做了一些部署，來了解川習會可能涉及到的議題，我記得之前在立院的專報，我們提到中共一定會操作所謂的涉臺議題，第三個是在整個過程當中我們會注意的是美國官方的說法，以及川普總統在接受訪談時比較即席性的一些談話，我們會做一些資訊的分析。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:00.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:19:13.878000+08:00","text":"整體上看起來就像美國官方對外澄清的，他們涉臺的政策還有對臺軍售的立場沒有改變，因為媒體有很多的報導，所以可能委員也注意到，美國官方也不斷的，一再的澄清這方面既有的立場，是有一貫性的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:14.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:19:19.399000+08:00","text":"後來他給的文字裡頭相對對臺灣是友善的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:19.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:19:21.120000+08:00","text":"是，我們看的是官方的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:22.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:19:22.960000+08:00","text":"是落實的文字啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:24.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:19:43.882000+08:00","text":"我請教局長，如果沒有這一場川習會，你個人研判，所謂140億美金的軍售案、臺灣的軍購案，會不會現在已經簽出來了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:19:44.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:20:01.746000+08:00","text":"我想臺美的軍售一定有經過我們雙方國防部門相關的磋商，針對臺灣的需求、未來戰爭情況的想定，看哪些是重要的優序，再列在相關的軍售清單上面，後續還要走國會及總統批核的程序。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:20:02.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:20:07.369000+08:00","text":"就這部分，以我國安局的立場來講，我們當然尊重美方相關國內的流程。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:20:07.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:20:20.079000+08:00","text":"就我們的觀察來講，美國對臺軍售不只涉及臺灣關係法的法律規定，也是長期的政策，更結合美國在印太整體戰略的布局跟規劃非常重要的一環。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:20:20.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:20:40.315000+08:00","text":"這個是大部分的看法，但是有一些的看法是，就因為這場談話，不知道習近平跟川普說了什麼，說一說之後，川普上飛機之前就說對於軍售臺灣武器的事情再想一想，你個人認為這樣的推論可不可能？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:20:41.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:20:54.874000+08:00","text":"我想川普總統當然可能在受訪的當下，因為人在中國，不管是一種外交辭令，還是因為在當天的歡迎晚宴，習近平不斷地講涉臺問題，讓他有這樣的印象。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:20:55.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:03.837000+08:00","text":"不過我還是建議委員，除了川普在隨訪時候的談話以外，還是可以多注意一下美國整個行政部門在這個議題立場的重申。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:03.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:19.666000+08:00","text":"就是川普離開中國之後，美國官方包括文字、各式各樣的說法，是不是就回到了川普還沒跟習近平見面之前？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:20.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:20.547000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，那個基調是一貫的。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:20.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:31.287000+08:00","text":"就是去之前跟去之後，整個美國的官方談這件事情是沒有改變的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:31.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:52.350000+08:00","text":"對，而且事實上委員可以注意到，以這段不是很長的這段時間，美國官方不管是白宮、國防部或國務院，以及駐聯合國大使、駐中大使，還有國會相關的議員，對於涉臺議題的論述跟說法幾乎可以說是非常頻密的，都是在重申對臺灣的支持。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:52.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:21:54.511000+08:00","text":"好，現在請外交部次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:21:56.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:04.938000+08:00","text":"在這個過程中，因為訊息一出來之後，我們看到美國部分的國會議員他們也講話了。是。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:06.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:09.400000+08:00","text":"對於這件事情，外交部有出到力嗎？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:09.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:11.240000+08:00","text":"還是就是他們講話，我們只是觀察？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:11.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:35.092000+08:00","text":"還是我們有去跟美國的國會議員、美國的政府做任何的溝通，對於川普總統到底在說什麼，他們要說清楚一點，因為國內在那個訊息一出來……因為今天這個報告裡頭也有寫說中國單方很快速地做了這樣的解讀，這個報告裡頭寫的，請問我們外交部做了什麼？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:35.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:52.344000+08:00","text":"我們其實跟包括美國政府及行政單位、美國國會、美國的政策圈都隨時保持非常密切的溝通，委員也知道我們在國會裡面有很多的好朋友，平常有很好的往來。對。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:52.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:22:54.685000+08:00","text":"同時，他們都非常關心臺海的和平穩定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:22:56.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:23:13.940000+08:00","text":"在川習會之後，國會發這樣的聲明、聯名信等等的，我們平常都有做好很多的努力，但這個時候他們觀察到這個局勢，主動來關切這樣的問題，我們對這樣的東西當然是表示非常歡迎。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:23:14.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:23:41.229000+08:00","text":"另外，我跟委員報告一下，美國總統的說話當然非常重要，但還要放在一個更大的脈絡之下來看，像委員非常了解，比如前任拜登總統在任內4次提出他會不顧任何代價防衛臺灣，但這個並沒有形成一個完整的政策。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:23:42.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:13.297000+08:00","text":"就像這次川普總統在講這件事情的時候，包括美國國務院、美國駐中大使、甚至不算是他業管的貿易代表也出來說話，大概傳遞了一個清楚的訊息，就是美國對臺政策不變，而整個軍售、包括對臺灣的態度、主權地位，我想也都是歷次累積起來的，大致上的基調是維持不變的，偶爾會有領導人自己的詮釋跟他對實際狀況的因應。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:13.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:15.881000+08:00","text":"所以你們現在看起來，狀況沒有很嚴重？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:18.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:19.845000+08:00","text":"因為大家都很緊張。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:19.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:44.918000+08:00","text":"是，我想中共在這場川習會最大的效果大概是造成我們臺灣的人心惶恐，就我們外交部的立場，當然我們會盡全力去了解整個狀況，但是我們的判斷是不需要這麼樣惶恐，美國長期的對臺政策、包括軍售在內，這一次又再一次地重申沒有任何的改變。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:45.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:46.839000+08:00","text":"好，我再請教一下局長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:47.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:24:59.067000+08:00","text":"局長，如果我們賴總統跟川普講到電話了，按照你的建議，會不會跟大家講？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:24:59.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:00.509000+08:00","text":"會不會說哪一天講到了、講了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:02.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:21.581000+08:00","text":"這部分總統府已經有對外說明了，就是假如總統有這個機會跟川普進行通話的話，幾個重點的論述就會幫臺灣的聲音傳遞給美方，包括臺灣是區域現狀的維護者，另外臺灣也會積極地在國防投資上做一些投資……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:21.581000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:22.581000+08:00","text":"這個我知道，這是我們的立場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:21.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:23.681000+08:00","text":"以及在區域安全上，中共是主要的威脅挑戰。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:23.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:24.501000+08:00","text":"總統已經有列出來了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:24.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:24.702000+08:00","text":"這是我們的立場。對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:25.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:33.486000+08:00","text":"至於他們兩個人到底說了什麼，如果對外說明，你覺得適合嗎？","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:33.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:36.528000+08:00","text":"這部分由府方來做相關的評估，以及……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:37.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:38.690000+08:00","text":"不是，你要建議啊，你不是都會建議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:38.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:46.316000+08:00","text":"假如建議的話，是在內部建議，而且國安局只代表我們國安局的意見，可能府方還要再綜合各個單位的意見來做總體的評估。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:46.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:46.876000+08:00","text":"那你的建議呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:48.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:54.304000+08:00","text":"我們的建議當然是在對話過程當中，可能就目前比較共同關切的議題利用這個機會來交換意見。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:55.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:25:56.587000+08:00","text":"在講電話的時候，你會參加嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:25:57.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:00.411000+08:00","text":"看到時候的規劃，也還涉及相關細節的安排，看府方怎麼規劃。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:26:00.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:22.648000+08:00","text":"好，那就是兩位都判斷現在的狀況並沒有我們當時第一時間看到川普在飛機上講的那些話，新聞一出來，讓全臺灣都緊張，以你們兩位的看法，現在經過一段時間之後，整體脈絡看起來並沒有那麼嚴重。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:26:23.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:29.993000+08:00","text":"對，美方的行政部門跟國會部門在這個議題上對臺灣的支持倒表達出滿一致的立場。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-05-25T12:26:29.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:30.013000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-05-25T12:26:30.513000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:32.227286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-25T12:26:32.527286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-25T12:26:36.241571+08:00","text":"接下來請郭昱晴委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}