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10:05:46","會議時間":"2026-05-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第5會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「邀請行政院院長應即率同大陸委員會、國防部、外交部及經濟部等相關部會首長就『川習會後台美與兩岸局勢變局、國安戰略、外交困境、經貿衝擊等之因應對策』進行專案報告並備質詢。」是否有當？請公決案等2案。二、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。三、5月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.73221875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.62659375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.85846875,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.77971875,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.27784375,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.14159375000001,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.16221875000001,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.70534375000001,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.21096875,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.82221875,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.00284375000001,"end":126.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.39096875000001,"end":126.59346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.59346875000001,"end":128.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.17534375,"end":132.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.55034375,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.23721875,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.26659375,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.66284375,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.21534375000002,"end":144.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.74659375000002,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.43846875,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.04096875000002,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.21784375000001,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.16284375,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.89221875,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.91721875000002,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.77784375000002,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.92534375,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.13596875000002,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.15221875,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.78471875000002,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.20596875,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.22221875000002,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.39846875,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.83596875,"end":224.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.09284375000001,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.65721875000003,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.86221875,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.86159375,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.45596875,"end":317.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.17534375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.42346875000004,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.02659375,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.40159375,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.88659375000003,"end":334.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.02096875,"end":338.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.86409375,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.46159375,"end":496.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.96596875000006,"end":497.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.92784375,"end":504.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.18909375000004,"end":502.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.04096875000005,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.69409375000004,"end":516.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.82471875000005,"end":509.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.85846875000004,"end":509.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.3090937500001,"end":518.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.37221875,"end":545.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.84409375,"end":522.3797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.3259687500001,"end":562.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.88659375,"end":546.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.03846875,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.97846875,"end":553.85159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現在院長 是不是我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":24.634,"end":40.964,"text":"今天要跟你討論從醫美診所爆發的偷拍事件這個事件現在已經擴大到不是只有醫美診所甚至是還有一般的中醫診所、一般診所也都包含在內"},{"start":41.944,"end":59.266,"text":"所以這個不是單一的業別也不是單一的診所的問題而是整個醫療管理醫療制度的管理上可能在制度上已經有一個缺口存在那我們衛福部在這一波的稽查裡面好像稽查了720家的醫美診所"},{"start":61.448,"end":85.829,"text":"那就已經查到三四十家 涉及到偷拍所以這個是一個非常嚴重的個案那非常大的一個警訊在告訴我們說這一些不肖的業者 那我們其實大家人心惶惶所以我們很想知道就是說 這一種不肖的業者的名稱你都查到了 除了看到的艾爾利 光澤"},{"start":87.15,"end":101.703,"text":"那還有什麼樣的診所那請問所在地在哪裡要不要公布跟委員說明我們陸陸續續都有衛生局採訪採訪之後我們最後會把採訪的結果公布給大家了解"},{"start":102.199,"end":120.201,"text":"你們要多長的時間啊因為對大家來講我很多人是繳廢制我還要不要進去啊還是我要退費啊那你查到的都已經是違法的真空的密錄了那為什麼不用最快的速度來公告呢"},{"start":121.008,"end":144.308,"text":"我們會要求衛生局盡快完成所有的裁罰程序裁罰以後我們是不是直接裁罰就可以公告應該是 理論上它就是公開的裁罰到現在已經查到了35家了那理論上這35家應該全部都公告給大家知道啊可以可以那對到底是要到什麼時候才主動的告訴我們盡快 我們回去就盡快是多快"},{"start":146.285,"end":168.755,"text":"從第一個診所到現在也已經很久了耶所以這已經不是盡快了大概是還要多久報告委員如果他確定裁罰這個名單很準很精確那麼他已經行為被確認了對我們衛福部會要求各地方政府對準這個名單之後應該要立即公告讓國人有知道的權利"},{"start":169.175,"end":192.84,"text":"好 部長你聽到了 院長說只要罰單一開出來 立即公告可不可以可以可以喔 那我現在在跟院長 部長請教違法的拍攝我們當然要查但是更大的問題是存在於說取得同意的錄影的這些影像被拍下來以後怎麼管理"},{"start":194.021,"end":212.275,"text":"誰可以調閱 會不會連上網路 要存取多久 流向會在哪裡 會不會外流所以這個不是說經過病患同意取得錄影的問題而已在這裡我們很清楚的要跟院長分享說"},{"start":214.256,"end":231.424,"text":"醫療影像的管理的最核心其實是資安是不是院長你可不可以同意而且我們在個資法上面也有相關的規定要保護到個人的隱私你就讓他同意讓你拍怎麼使用要嚴格的管制"},{"start":231.884,"end":251.563,"text":"對啊 所以資訊安全才是最重要的而不是只是同意拍攝嘛那韓國也曾經發生過這種外流的事件它還涉及到可以遠端即時觀看的IP Camera所以顯示說真正的風險不只是它有沒有安裝拍攝的鏡頭"},{"start":253.324,"end":276.562,"text":"它還必須涉及到這個設備有沒有聯網能不能遠端的登入是否有預設的密碼有沒有開放外部存取是不是會上傳到第三方平台是否會留下完整的調閱記錄所以我們現在就是認為說要克責醫療機關 醫療機構"},{"start":280.666,"end":296.323,"text":"要認為有錄影這個必要的時候就應該要採取不聯網限制權限加密儲存最小授權還有完整的調閱記錄的這一些措施這個院長請問你同不同意"},{"start":297.103,"end":317.631,"text":"當然同意 而且行政院的委員簡單報告案發之後我們就請張端凡秘書長召開一次緊急的會議就個案要加強偵辦的速度就場域要確定哪些場域可以拍哪些場域不可以拍就行為要加重他的罰則就設備也要分析哪些設備應該做比較嚴密的管控"},{"start":318.231,"end":337.497,"text":"那這個禮拜我們還會請林明星政委召開相關的後續的會議就這個細項再往更細的這個方向去做規劃剛剛委員所提到的這個流程的紀錄時間多長如何使用這個都必須在強化規劃當中好現在我就是要提醒你因為在委員會我也質詢過了"},{"start":338.917,"end":359.566,"text":"在這裡影像醫療的影像在台灣不是一般個資在我們的法律的架構它是特種的高度敏感的個資所以不能夠像衛福部現在做的衛福部只做一件事啊他們為醫事司召集了各個診所協會通通來全台灣診所協會通通來然後只去處理了"},{"start":360.466,"end":380.733,"text":"對空間管理的規範醫療機構全面禁止使用密錄設備公共空間的錄影需要公告低度隱私需要同意低度隱私空間設置要主動告知手術跟內診嚴禁錄影僅教學目的以例外他就只做空間管理的這個規範"},{"start":382.333,"end":392.044,"text":"但是我剛剛一開始就強調了這整個醫療影像的最核心其實是他的資訊安全是他的管理而且我們要克責於診所醫療機構的經營者要有責任"},{"start":397.29,"end":417.541,"text":"所以政府不能夠把問題理解成說只是同意然後要求空間規範管理哪些可以拍哪些不能拍不能夠只是這樣子而必須要建立一套完整的錄音錄影管理規範包括錄影必要性的審查近拍區的區域清單設備聯網的管理"},{"start":421.304,"end":450.203,"text":"調閱的權限保存的期限刪除的機制外包維護的責任以及外流後的通報和下架程序而且我們要進一步的要把它法制化明確的納入法律裡面的規範而不是只是一個醫療上的行政指引而衛福部到現在都沒有做這些相關的事情而且都沒有承諾我們它要法制化"},{"start":450.583,"end":474.132,"text":"因為苛責於醫療機構你要求人家有義務你必須採取法律保留原則必須以法律定制而衛福部之前面對我的諮詢通通都還沒有辦法具體承諾院長你可不可以承諾我們這個必須要法制化規範必須採取法律保留原則"},{"start":474.992,"end":494.602,"text":"而且不是只有空間管理上哪些可以攝影哪些不能攝影最核心的地方其實就是資訊安全就是資安可不可以請問謝謝委員提醒因為這個是一個跨部會很多的作業衛福部是依照它的業管範圍就資通安全上資訊的保護場域的保護協定我們另外還有經濟部財政部"},{"start":498.084,"end":503.728,"text":"就這個設備進口如何管制還有工廠會 還有內政部都有做月管的議案"},{"start":509.896,"end":528.147,"text":"跟委員說明確實剛剛您提到的我們是先做這個所謂的設路的空間管理的規範按照它是低度低隱私高隱私還有公共空間那另外一個是根據自動安全法的授權各目的事業主管機關可以要求"},{"start":528.807,"end":547.774,"text":"那麼我們過去只要求到醫院等級他要有一個自通安全的管理計畫要被 要核准的啦所以這裡面就包含剛剛提到的這些資料的保存 銷毀的機制等等沒有啦 你醫療法裡面壓納入對 要對醫療機構特別是診所要克責啦法律責任要克責要放到醫療法裡面來不要用一般的"},{"start":557.558,"end":579.842,"text":"各司法去處理他醫療法一定要特別法一定要特別克責啊醫院部當然說醫院要適用醫療法這個是他的場地的管理對好抱歉各位時間可以暫停一下嗎因為我的鞋子卡住了時間暫停慢慢來抱歉因為他卡在那個縫裡面沒問題沒問題好謝謝可以繼續了好時間繼續"},{"start":583.8,"end":604.447,"text":"好 院長那我現在就叫你關於勞動部門的事情因為在台北發生了密室逃脫的員工在扮演吊掛的時候不幸意外死亡其實這個不幸是可以避免的而且也應該是要避免的"},{"start":606.168,"end":631.047,"text":"現場發現沒有採取任何的預防措施然後沒有辦理職業安全的教育訓練業者沒有做任何的風險評估的問題雖然已經勒令停業但是我們要在這裡講這是一種新興的娛樂產業雖然看起來是娛樂服務業但是我們在乎公安消防的安全"},{"start":631.947,"end":641.737,"text":"這些消費者的安全之外我們還要看到在這裡面從業的人員的職業安全所以這種新興的娛樂產業它是一種情緒勞動在這個密室逃脫裡面"},{"start":649.303,"end":674.293,"text":"他不是像一般的遊樂園 電影院勞工只是接待 售票 現場引導 他不是像密室逃脫 他很明顯他是一個沉浸式的遊戲工作的內容可能包括吊掛 追逐在低照明的狀況裡面移動在小小的空間裡面執勤 角色扮演而你通通沒有"},{"start":675.694,"end":703.59,"text":"職災預防的任何的準備沒有風險評估所以這個問題就不是這一個職災的勞工的個人的問題它是整個制度對這類工作風險的辨識跟管理都沒有跟得上時代所以這個風險在國外也有當然大家看到很多都是像火災大家要密室逃脫他可能會噴煙在波蘭就曾經發生說他沒有"},{"start":704.69,"end":733.599,"text":"做到這個火災的預防消防的這個安全曾經啊在波蘭一個密室逃脫裡面有5個5個15歲的少女死亡而當時他們被鎖起來而那個職工呢他出去外面買個東西回來發現大火熊熊都根本來不及救這是一個公安安全以外這個很重要這個很重要但我們今天要講的是說不只是公共安全很重要"},{"start":734.699,"end":754.847,"text":"大家就開始感覺到說這一種這個具有封閉空間低照度迷宮式的動線還有機關設計還有延遲逃生它就不是一般的娛樂場所有時候還有做這個效果有這個噴煙其實你也很難分辨是真正的消防安全火災了"},{"start":755.567,"end":769.826,"text":"還是只是特效的噴煙一開始所以這是一個非常嚴重而且嚴肅的問題在這裡呢遊客的體驗的安全以外我一直講說現場工作人員的生命安全"},{"start":770.927,"end":795.187,"text":"所以重點我們看到消防和公安但是我們要看到勞安在這個裡面我們希望說除了火災發生的時候是不是能夠逃生我們更在意的是如果在黑暗封閉機關密集情緒高漲還要扮演角色嚇人的這種工作環境裡面要怎麼樣去做勞動規範要怎麼克責於僱主你要職業"},{"start":800.352,"end":819.012,"text":"這個職業災害的預防的責任那這個在很多地方都有這種討論在勞動部的勞保局2016年有一個很有趣的徵文他說最有梗的打工的事你最有梗寫下來我們來徵文徵選"},{"start":821.034,"end":844.382,"text":"結果呢一個這個得獎的作品叫半鬼嚇人可是遊客比鬼更恐怖這一篇得獎了這個學生寫到說他暑假的時候去賺外快打工報名了鬼屋的工作人員但是遇到穿高跟鞋來體驗的女生女生嚇到拿高跟鞋狂砸他的臉"},{"start":846.162,"end":860.57,"text":"說讓他直覺說客人比鬼更恐怖其實大家聽了以後都會覺得蠻好笑的老實說其實我們是其實這好笑當中我們是看到這個真的是對這個從業的勞工完全沒有保障"},{"start":861.07,"end":876.493,"text":"所以把顧客的暴力跟情緒勞動的可能遇到的風險都要納入職業安全裡面去規範那我們現在就看到出事了大家去勞檢可是我們更想要看到的是應該要法制化 制度化"},{"start":877.514,"end":906.013,"text":"我們要問說需不需要檢查繩索有沒有固定檢查吊掛橋段有沒有做風險評估員工在低照明度的空間移動追逐扮演有沒有需要兩個人協同機制有沒有緊急停止緊急解除和脫困的程序有沒有做這個職安教育訓練和實作研練有沒有建立譬如說需經事故的通報和改善機制"},{"start":906.673,"end":916.739,"text":"在這種顧客高度緊張受驚嚇或情緒失控的下會被攻擊的狀況裡面你要怎麼樣去做勞檢怎麼規範中央應該要訂出一套勞檢的重點規範的制度出來吧"},{"start":922.867,"end":936.347,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在這個治安法裡面其實是有相關的條文來做包括他機械設備器具等等等所造成的危害"},{"start":939.957,"end":959.244,"text":"機械設備他今天鑰匙的那個人是什麼機具他哪裡有機械設備機具所以我跟你講我們都是在法治面相當不足因為整個產業 重勤勳勞動的產業不斷"},{"start":968.099,"end":988.555,"text":"所以隨時我們這個小孩子在玩的我們根本無從想像他的從業環境會是什麼所以你們隨時都應該要去檢討這個新鮮的產業裡面我們該給出來的職業安全的指引要求部主要做到怎樣去把應該是更具體的而不是只就現有的法律"},{"start":990.236,"end":1016.817,"text":"老實說啦現在有的法律工具你去挑一挑很難挑得到符合真的可以對它完整規範的條文出來而你們該有的指引該有的制度其實是刻骨柔軟應該要立即馬上建立至少這一個無辜的性命犧牲之後我們要看到文雅"},{"start":1019.721,"end":1019.742,"text":"好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}