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部長請教違法的拍攝我們當然要查但是更大的問題是存在於說取得同意的錄影的這些影像被拍下來以後怎麼管理"},{"start":194.021,"end":212.275,"text":"誰可以調閱 會不會連上網路 要存取多久 流向會在哪裡 會不會外流所以這個不是說經過病患同意取得錄影的問題而已在這裡我們很清楚的要跟院長分享說"},{"start":214.256,"end":231.424,"text":"醫療影像的管理的最核心其實是資安是不是院長你可不可以同意而且我們在個資法上面也有相關的規定要保護到個人的隱私你就讓他同意讓你拍怎麼使用要嚴格的管制"},{"start":231.884,"end":251.563,"text":"對啊 所以資訊安全才是最重要的而不是只是同意拍攝嘛那韓國也曾經發生過這種外流的事件它還涉及到可以遠端即時觀看的IP Camera所以顯示說真正的風險不只是它有沒有安裝拍攝的鏡頭"},{"start":253.324,"end":276.562,"text":"它還必須涉及到這個設備有沒有聯網能不能遠端的登入是否有預設的密碼有沒有開放外部存取是不是會上傳到第三方平台是否會留下完整的調閱記錄所以我們現在就是認為說要克責醫療機關 醫療機構"},{"start":280.666,"end":296.323,"text":"要認為有錄影這個必要的時候就應該要採取不聯網限制權限加密儲存最小授權還有完整的調閱記錄的這一些措施這個院長請問你同不同意"},{"start":297.103,"end":317.631,"text":"當然同意 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還有內政部都有做月管的議案"},{"start":509.896,"end":528.147,"text":"跟委員說明確實剛剛您提到的我們是先做這個所謂的設路的空間管理的規範按照它是低度低隱私高隱私還有公共空間那另外一個是根據自動安全法的授權各目的事業主管機關可以要求"},{"start":528.807,"end":547.774,"text":"那麼我們過去只要求到醫院等級他要有一個自通安全的管理計畫要被 要核准的啦所以這裡面就包含剛剛提到的這些資料的保存 銷毀的機制等等沒有啦 你醫療法裡面壓納入對 要對醫療機構特別是診所要克責啦法律責任要克責要放到醫療法裡面來不要用一般的"},{"start":557.558,"end":579.842,"text":"各司法去處理他醫療法一定要特別法一定要特別克責啊醫院部當然說醫院要適用醫療法這個是他的場地的管理對好抱歉各位時間可以暫停一下嗎因為我的鞋子卡住了時間暫停慢慢來抱歉因為他卡在那個縫裡面沒問題沒問題好謝謝可以繼續了好時間繼續"},{"start":583.8,"end":604.447,"text":"好 院長那我現在就叫你關於勞動部門的事情因為在台北發生了密室逃脫的員工在扮演吊掛的時候不幸意外死亡其實這個不幸是可以避免的而且也應該是要避免的"},{"start":606.168,"end":631.047,"text":"現場發現沒有採取任何的預防措施然後沒有辦理職業安全的教育訓練業者沒有做任何的風險評估的問題雖然已經勒令停業但是我們要在這裡講這是一種新興的娛樂產業雖然看起來是娛樂服務業但是我們在乎公安消防的安全"},{"start":631.947,"end":641.737,"text":"這些消費者的安全之外我們還要看到在這裡面從業的人員的職業安全所以這種新興的娛樂產業它是一種情緒勞動在這個密室逃脫裡面"},{"start":649.303,"end":674.293,"text":"他不是像一般的遊樂園 電影院勞工只是接待 售票 現場引導 他不是像密室逃脫 他很明顯他是一個沉浸式的遊戲工作的內容可能包括吊掛 追逐在低照明的狀況裡面移動在小小的空間裡面執勤 角色扮演而你通通沒有"},{"start":675.694,"end":703.59,"text":"職災預防的任何的準備沒有風險評估所以這個問題就不是這一個職災的勞工的個人的問題它是整個制度對這類工作風險的辨識跟管理都沒有跟得上時代所以這個風險在國外也有當然大家看到很多都是像火災大家要密室逃脫他可能會噴煙在波蘭就曾經發生說他沒有"},{"start":704.69,"end":733.599,"text":"做到這個火災的預防消防的這個安全曾經啊在波蘭一個密室逃脫裡面有5個5個15歲的少女死亡而當時他們被鎖起來而那個職工呢他出去外面買個東西回來發現大火熊熊都根本來不及救這是一個公安安全以外這個很重要這個很重要但我們今天要講的是說不只是公共安全很重要"},{"start":734.699,"end":754.847,"text":"大家就開始感覺到說這一種這個具有封閉空間低照度迷宮式的動線還有機關設計還有延遲逃生它就不是一般的娛樂場所有時候還有做這個效果有這個噴煙其實你也很難分辨是真正的消防安全火災了"},{"start":755.567,"end":769.826,"text":"還是只是特效的噴煙一開始所以這是一個非常嚴重而且嚴肅的問題在這裡呢遊客的體驗的安全以外我一直講說現場工作人員的生命安全"},{"start":770.927,"end":795.187,"text":"所以重點我們看到消防和公安但是我們要看到勞安在這個裡面我們希望說除了火災發生的時候是不是能夠逃生我們更在意的是如果在黑暗封閉機關密集情緒高漲還要扮演角色嚇人的這種工作環境裡面要怎麼樣去做勞動規範要怎麼克責於僱主你要職業"},{"start":800.352,"end":819.012,"text":"這個職業災害的預防的責任那這個在很多地方都有這種討論在勞動部的勞保局2016年有一個很有趣的徵文他說最有梗的打工的事你最有梗寫下來我們來徵文徵選"},{"start":821.034,"end":844.382,"text":"結果呢一個這個得獎的作品叫半鬼嚇人可是遊客比鬼更恐怖這一篇得獎了這個學生寫到說他暑假的時候去賺外快打工報名了鬼屋的工作人員但是遇到穿高跟鞋來體驗的女生女生嚇到拿高跟鞋狂砸他的臉"},{"start":846.162,"end":860.57,"text":"說讓他直覺說客人比鬼更恐怖其實大家聽了以後都會覺得蠻好笑的老實說其實我們是其實這好笑當中我們是看到這個真的是對這個從業的勞工完全沒有保障"},{"start":861.07,"end":876.493,"text":"所以把顧客的暴力跟情緒勞動的可能遇到的風險都要納入職業安全裡面去規範那我們現在就看到出事了大家去勞檢可是我們更想要看到的是應該要法制化 制度化"},{"start":877.514,"end":906.013,"text":"我們要問說需不需要檢查繩索有沒有固定檢查吊掛橋段有沒有做風險評估員工在低照明度的空間移動追逐扮演有沒有需要兩個人協同機制有沒有緊急停止緊急解除和脫困的程序有沒有做這個職安教育訓練和實作研練有沒有建立譬如說需經事故的通報和改善機制"},{"start":906.673,"end":916.739,"text":"在這種顧客高度緊張受驚嚇或情緒失控的下會被攻擊的狀況裡面你要怎麼樣去做勞檢怎麼規範中央應該要訂出一套勞檢的重點規範的制度出來吧"},{"start":922.867,"end":936.347,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在這個治安法裡面其實是有相關的條文來做包括他機械設備器具等等等所造成的危害"},{"start":939.957,"end":959.244,"text":"機械設備他今天鑰匙的那個人是什麼機具他哪裡有機械設備機具所以我跟你講我們都是在法治面相當不足因為整個產業 重勤勳勞動的產業不斷"},{"start":968.099,"end":988.555,"text":"所以隨時我們這個小孩子在玩的我們根本無從想像他的從業環境會是什麼所以你們隨時都應該要去檢討這個新鮮的產業裡面我們該給出來的職業安全的指引要求部主要做到怎樣去把應該是更具體的而不是只就現有的法律"},{"start":990.236,"end":1016.817,"text":"老實說啦現在有的法律工具你去挑一挑很難挑得到符合真的可以對它完整規範的條文出來而你們該有的指引該有的制度其實是刻骨柔軟應該要立即馬上建立至少這一個無辜的性命犧牲之後我們要看到文雅"},{"start":1019.721,"end":1019.742,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:48:54.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:48:57.873000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，是不是我們請卓院長？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T09:48:57.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:48:58.554000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:48:58.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:49:05.094000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:49:05.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:49:11.634000+08:00","text":"院長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:49:11.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:10.267000+08:00","text":"我今天要跟你討論的是，從醫美診所爆發的偷拍事件，這個事件現在已經擴大到不是只有醫美診所，甚至還有一般的中醫診所、一般診所也都包含在內，所以這個不是單一的業別，也不是單一診所的問題，而是整個醫療制度的管理上，可能在制度上已經有一個缺口存在，衛福部在這一波的稽查裡面，好像稽查了720家的醫美診所，那就已經查到三、四十家涉及到偷拍，所以這是一個非常嚴重的個案、非常大的一個警訊，其實大家是人心惶惶，所以我們很想知道，這種不肖業者的名稱你都查到了嗎？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:10.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:16.372000+08:00","text":"除了看到的愛爾麗、光澤，還有什麼樣的診所？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:17.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:19.275000+08:00","text":"請問所在地在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:19.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:20.195000+08:00","text":"要不要公布？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:21.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:28.683000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，陸陸續續衛生局都有裁罰，裁罰之後，我們最後會把裁罰的結果公布給大家了解。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:29.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:31.762000+08:00","text":"要多長的時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:32.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:38.891000+08:00","text":"因為對大家來講，很多人是繳費制，到底還要不要進去，還是要退費？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:40.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:47.181000+08:00","text":"你查到的都已經是違法的針孔密錄，為什麼不用最快的速度公告呢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:48.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:52.552000+08:00","text":"我們會要求衛生局儘快完成所有的裁罰程序。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:53.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:55.495000+08:00","text":"裁罰以後是不是直接就可以公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:56.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:50:59.578000+08:00","text":"應該是，理論上它就是公開的，它就是公開的裁罰。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:50:59.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:05.443000+08:00","text":"到現在已經查到了35家，理論上這35家應該全部都公告給大家知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:05.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:06.524000+08:00","text":"可以、可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:06.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:09.167000+08:00","text":"對，那到底要到什麼時候才主動告訴大家？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:09.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:10.228000+08:00","text":"我們儘快，我們回去就……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:10.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:11.288000+08:00","text":"儘快是多快？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:11.288000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:13.285000+08:00","text":"我們回去就請衛生局報過來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:13.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:22.369000+08:00","text":"從第一個診所到現在已經很久了，所以這已經不是儘快了，大概還要多久呢？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:22.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:29.972000+08:00","text":"報告委員，如果確定裁罰的名單很準、很精確，那麼他的行為已經被確認了……對。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:30.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:35.735000+08:00","text":"衛福部會要求各地方政府對準名單之後，應該立即公告，讓國人有知道的權利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:36.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:43.457000+08:00","text":"好，部長你聽到了，院長說只要罰單一開出來，立即公告，可不可以？可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:43.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:43.617000+08:00","text":"可以喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:51:43.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:51:59.820000+08:00","text":"那我現在要再跟院長和部長請教，違法的拍攝我們當然要查，但是更大的問題存在於取得同意錄影的這些影像，被拍下來以後，怎麼管理？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:01.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:02.662000+08:00","text":"誰可以調閱？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:02.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:03.983000+08:00","text":"會不會連上網路？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:04.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:05.925000+08:00","text":"要存取多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:06.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:08.587000+08:00","text":"流向會在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:08.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:09.267000+08:00","text":"會不會外流？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:10.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:28.440000+08:00","text":"所以這個不是經過病患同意取得錄影的問題而已，在這裡，我很清楚的要跟院長分享，醫療影像管理的最核心，其實就是資安，院長，你是不是可以同意？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:29.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:38.884000+08:00","text":"對，而且我們個資法也有相關規定，要保護個人隱私，就算他同意讓你拍，怎麼使用，也要嚴格管制。對啊！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:39.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:52:43.989000+08:00","text":"所以資訊安全才是最重要的，而不是只是同意拍攝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:52:45.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:04.568000+08:00","text":"韓國也曾經發生過這種外流事件，他還涉及到可以遠端即時觀看的IP camera，顯示真正的風險不只是他有沒有安裝拍攝鏡頭，還涉及到這個設備有沒有連網？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:04.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:06.189000+08:00","text":"能不能遠端登入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:06.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:09.031000+08:00","text":"是否有預設密碼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:09.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:11.193000+08:00","text":"有沒有開放外部存取？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:11.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:14.856000+08:00","text":"是不是會上傳到第三方平臺？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:15.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:19.439000+08:00","text":"是否會留下完整的調閱紀錄？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:20.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:53:43.302000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是認為要課責醫療機構，當認為有錄影必要的時候，就應該採取不連網、限制權限、加密儲存、最小授權，還有完整調閱紀錄的這些措施，院長，這個請問你同不同意？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:53:44.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:54:04.611000+08:00","text":"當然同意，而且行政院的作為簡單跟委員報告，案發之後，我們就請張惇涵秘書長召開一次緊急會議，就個案要加強偵辦速度，就場域要確定哪些場域可以拍、哪些場域不可以拍，就行為要加重他的罰則，就設備也要分析哪些設備應該做比較嚴密的管控。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:54:05.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:54:20.515000+08:00","text":"這個禮拜我們還會請林明昕政委召開相關後續會議，就細項部分再往更細的方向規劃，剛剛委員提及的流程紀錄、時間多長、如何使用等等，都必須在強化規範當中。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:54:21.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:55:07.733000+08:00","text":"好，現在我就是要提醒你，因為在委員會我已經質詢過了，醫療的影像在臺灣不是一般個資，在我們的法律架構上，它是特種的高度敏感個資，所以不能夠像衛福部現在做的，衛福部只做一件事，就是醫事司召集各個診所協會通通來，全臺灣診所協會通通來，然後只處理了對空間管理的規範，要求醫療機構全面禁止使用密錄設備、公共空間的錄影需要公告、低度隱私需要同意、低度隱私空間設置要主動告知、手術跟內診嚴禁錄影，僅教學目的例外，它就只做空間管理的規範。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:55:09.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:55:57.270000+08:00","text":"但是我剛剛一開始就強調了，這整個醫療影像的最核心其實是它的資訊安全、是它的管理，而且我們要課責於診所，醫療機構的經營者要有責任，所以政府不能夠把問題理解成說只是同意，然後要求空間規範管理，哪些可以拍、哪些不能拍，不只是這樣，不能夠只是這樣子，而是必須要建立一套完整的錄音錄影管理規範，包括錄影必要性的審查、禁拍區的區域清單、設備連網的管理、調閱的權限、保存的期限、刪除的機制、外包維護的責任以及外流後的通報和下架程序。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:55:57.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:56:34.549000+08:00","text":"而且我們要進一步的把它法制化，明確的納入法律裡面的規範，而不是只是一個醫療上的行政指引，衛福部到現在都沒有做這些相關的事情，也沒有承諾我們它要法制化，因為課責於醫療機構，你要求人家有義務，你必須採取法律保留原則，必須以法律定之，而衛福部之前面對我的質詢，通通都還沒有辦法具體承諾。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:56:34.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:56:51.437000+08:00","text":"院長，你可不可以承諾我們這個必須要法制化規範，必須採取法律保留原則，而且不是只有空間管理上哪些可以攝影、哪些不能攝影，最核心的地方其實就是資訊安全、就是資安，可不可以承諾？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:56:52.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:10.588000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，因為這個是一個跨部會很多的作業，衛福部是依照它的業管範圍，就資通安全上資訊的保護、場域的保護界定，那我們另外還有經濟部、財政部就這個設備進口如何管制，還有通傳會，還有內政部都有做業管的業務……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:10.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:13.742000+08:00","text":"你講顛倒了、你講顛倒了，你剛才說的衛福部剛好全部都沒有做啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:13.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:16.896000+08:00","text":"我請部長再說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:16.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:22.059000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，確實剛剛您提到的，我們是先做所謂的涉入……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:22.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:24.320000+08:00","text":"空間管理的規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:24.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:29.483000+08:00","text":"對，按照它是低度、低隱私、高隱私，還有公共空間……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:29.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:30.483000+08:00","text":"你這個我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:29.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:49.112000+08:00","text":"另外一個是根據資通安全法的授權，各目的事業主管機關可以要求，我們過去只要求到醫院等級，它要有一個資通安全的管理計畫要核准，所以這裡面就包含剛剛提到的這些資料的保存、銷毀的機制等等，還有通報……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:49.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:49.732000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:49.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:51.413000+08:00","text":"你醫療法裡面要納入，要對醫療機構特別是診所，要課責啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:51.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:52.413000+08:00","text":"那現在我們來研議要不要擴大到診所的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:51.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:52.914000+08:00","text":"法律責任要課責……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:52.914000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:57:53.914000+08:00","text":"我們來研議，按照這個法律的授權來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:57:52.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:09.539000+08:00","text":"要放到醫療法裡面來，不要用一般的個資法去處理，醫療法是特別法，一定要特別課責啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:10.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:13.280000+08:00","text":"最後當然一定要適用醫療法，這是它的場域管理。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:15.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:17.321000+08:00","text":"抱歉，時間可以暫停一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:17.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:19.581000+08:00","text":"因為我的鞋子卡住了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:20.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:23.402000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，慢慢來，不急，林委員。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:23.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:25.082000+08:00","text":"抱歉，因為它卡在那個縫裡面。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:25.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:25.902000+08:00","text":"沒問題、沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:26.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:26.762000+08:00","text":"謝謝，可以繼續了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:26.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:26.842000+08:00","text":"好，時間繼續。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:31.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:40.983000+08:00","text":"院長，那我現在就教你關於勞動部門的事情，因為在臺北發生了密室逃脫的員工……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:40.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T09:58:42.004000+08:00","text":"請勞動部長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:58:42.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T09:59:26.295000+08:00","text":"在扮演吊掛的時候，不幸意外死亡，這個不幸其實是可以避免的，而且也應該是要避免的，現場發現沒有採取任何的預防措施，沒有辦理職業安全的教育訓練，業者沒有做任何風險評估，雖然已經勒令停業，但是我們要在這裡講，這是一種新興的娛樂產業，雖然看起來是娛樂服務業，但是我們在乎公安消防的安全、消費者的安全之外，我們還要看到在這裡面的從業人員的職業安全。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T09:59:27.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:00:19.123000+08:00","text":"所以這種新興的娛樂產業是一種情緒勞動，在這個密室逃脫裡面，它不是像一般的遊樂園、電影院，勞工只是接待、售票、現場引導，它不是，像密室逃脫它很明顯，它是一個沉浸式的遊戲，工作的內容可能包括吊掛、追逐，在低照明的狀況裡面移動，在狹小的空間裡面執勤、角色扮演，而通通都沒有職災預防的任何準備，沒有風險評估，所以這個問題就不是遭到職災勞工的個人問題，而是整個制度對這類工作風險的辨識跟管理都沒有跟上時代。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:00:21.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:00:28.008000+08:00","text":"這個風險在國外也有，當然大家看到的很多像是火災，大家在玩密室逃脫時，可能會噴煙。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:00:28.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:00:52.617000+08:00","text":"波蘭就曾經發生因為沒有做到火災的預防、消防的安全，在波蘭玩的密室逃脫裡面就有5個15歲的少女死亡，當時他們被鎖起來，而那個職工出去外面買個東西回來發現熊熊大火，根本就來不及救，這是一個在公共安全的例子。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:00:54.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:01:16.865000+08:00","text":"這個很重要，但我們今天要講的是，不只是公共安全很重要，大家要開始警覺到，這種具有封閉空間、低照度、迷宮式的動線，裡面有機關設計、延遲逃生，它就不是一般的娛樂場所，有時候還會做噴煙效果。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:01:18.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:01:29.557000+08:00","text":"其實一開始你很難分辨是真正的消防安全火災了，還是只是特效的噴煙，所以這是一個非常嚴重而且嚴肅的問題。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:01:31.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:01:43.292000+08:00","text":"除了遊客體驗的安全以外，我一直講現場工作人員的生命安全，所以重點是我們看到消防和公安，但是也要看到勞安。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:01:43.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:02:00.626000+08:00","text":"在這個裡面，我們希望除了火災發生的時候能夠逃生，我們更在意的是，如何在黑暗、封閉、機關密集、情緒高漲，還要扮演角色嚇人的這種工作環境裡面要怎麼樣去做勞動規範？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:02:00.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:02:08.673000+08:00","text":"要怎麼課責雇主負起職業災害預防的責任？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:02:10.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:02:26.012000+08:00","text":"這在很多地方都有這種討論，勞動部勞保局在2016年有個很有趣的徵文，就是寫下「最有梗打工事」，要人把最有梗的寫下來進行徵文徵選。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:02:28.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:02:37.617000+08:00","text":"結果這個得獎的作品叫「扮鬼嚇人，可是遊客比鬼還恐怖」，這一篇得獎了。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:02:38.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:02:55.784000+08:00","text":"這個學生寫到，他暑假的時候去賺外快打工，報名了鬼屋的工作人員，但是遇到穿高跟鞋來體驗的女生，女生嚇到拿高跟鞋狂砸他的臉，讓他覺得客人比鬼更恐怖。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:02:56.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:16.483000+08:00","text":"其實大家聽了以後都會覺得蠻好笑的，老實說，我們在好笑當中看到這個真的是對從業勞工完全沒有保障，所以顧客的暴力跟情緒勞動可能遇到的風險，都要納入職業安全裡面去規範。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:16.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:23.473000+08:00","text":"我們現在看到出事了，大家去勞檢，可是我們更想要看到的是應該要法制化、制度化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:24.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:27.736000+08:00","text":"我們要問，需不需要檢查繩索有沒有固定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:29.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:31.179000+08:00","text":"檢查吊掛橋段有沒有做風險評估？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:32.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:38.663000+08:00","text":"員工在低照明度的空間移動、追逐、扮演，有沒有需要兩個人協同的機制？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:39.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:43.066000+08:00","text":"有沒有緊急停止、緊急解除和脫困的程序？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:43.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:48.049000+08:00","text":"有沒有做職安教育訓練和實作演練？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:48.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:03:52.993000+08:00","text":"有沒有建立比如虛驚事故的通報和改善機制？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:03:53.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:01.538000+08:00","text":"在這種顧客高度緊張、受驚嚇或情緒失控會被攻擊的狀況裡面，你要怎麼去做勞檢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:01.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:01.838000+08:00","text":"怎麼規範？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:01.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:03.719000+08:00","text":"中央應該要定出一套勞檢的重點和規範的制度出來吧？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:09.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:23.327000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實現在職安法裡面是有相關的條文，包括機械設備、器具等等所造成的危害，然後這個雇主也就是事業單位……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:26.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:31.519000+08:00","text":"機械設備，那今天吊死的那個人是什麼危害？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:31.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:32.619000+08:00","text":"包括機械設備、器具，必須要……","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:32.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:34.520000+08:00","text":"有「器具」，但哪裡有「機械設備」？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:34.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:35.520000+08:00","text":"我是說條文裡面有包括機械設備，器具也包括在裡面。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:35.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:36.520000+08:00","text":"器具有所成……器具？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:34.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:04:56.340000+08:00","text":"所以我跟你講，我們的法制面相當不足，因為這種情緒勞動的服務產業會不斷地新興，也越來越多，而我們跟不上這個時代。","quality":0.54},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:04:56.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:15.535000+08:00","text":"那個是小孩子在玩的，我們根本無從想像他的從業環境會是什麼，所以你們隨時都應該要檢討新興產業該給的職業安全指引，要求雇主要做到怎麼樣的預防，應該是更具體的，而不是僅就現有法律。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:17.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:36.031000+08:00","text":"老實說，現有的法律工具，你去挑，一直挑，很難挑得到真的符合、可以對它完整規範的條文出來，所以該有的指引、該有的制度其實是刻不容緩，你們應該要立即建立。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:36.031000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:37.031000+08:00","text":"好的，中央地方一起來合力……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:37.031000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:38.031000+08:00","text":"把這個事實釐清之後，我們來加強這方面的防制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:37.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:43.637000+08:00","text":"至少這個無辜的性命犧牲之後，我們要看到亡羊補牢。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:44.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:45.565571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:45.865571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:52.437000+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員質詢，謝謝卓院長和相關部會首長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-26T10:05:52.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-26T10:05:58.165571+08:00","text":"接下來請林月琴委員質詢，廖偉翔委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}