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社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1147.529,"end":1175.378,"text":"出席委員已足法定人數現在開會現在介紹在場的委員我們先介紹列席的官員行政院秘書長張敦海秘書長教育科學文化處吳敬儒處長"},{"start":1179.005,"end":1203.096,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為主任委員被提名人蔣榮軒國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為副主任委員被提名人陳明修是在上午11點的時候才會列席行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處李花書處長"},{"start":1217.452,"end":1244.195,"text":"本次會議進行審查行政院韓宋國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單蔣榮鑫為委員並為主任委員陳明修為委員並為副主任委員黃薇薇及羅惠文軍委委員請同意案並說明如下立法院院會一一四年八月八號第十一屆第三會期第二十四"},{"start":1246.01,"end":1270.96,"text":"24次會議報告交付交通教育及文化兩委員會審查本案行政院並將審查時所需個別提名人之相關資料移送立法院參考交通委員會已於8月28日舉辦公聽會日前並已完成本院各黨團對"},{"start":1274.025,"end":1303.192,"text":"被提名人之資格及事任性所提書面問題函請行政院轉至各被提名人經行政院函附各被提名人提出之相關資料及拒絕部分檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排本20日及22日兩天一次會議分別審查"},{"start":1304.704,"end":1333.777,"text":"本日先依序分別進行被提名人蔣榮鑫先生及陳明修先生之說明與答詢22日再依序分別進行被提名人黃薇薇女士及羅惠文女士之說明及答詢本日會議開始進行各被提名人之說明與答詢前先宣告以下事項"},{"start":1335.342,"end":1361.891,"text":"先進行被提名人蔣榮鮮先生之說明與答詢與行政院長張敦海秘書長及蔣榮鮮先生分別說明後即進行答詢蔣榮鮮先生部分全部答詢結束後休息10分鐘再進行被提名人陳明修先生之說明與答詢程序同上"},{"start":1363.103,"end":1385.161,"text":"答詢時間出席委員6分鐘列席委員4分鐘本院委員發言登記於10點30分截止本日會議不處理臨時提案現在開始進行被提名人蔣榮鮮先生之說明與答詢"},{"start":1387.589,"end":1395.319,"text":"現在請行政院張敦涵秘書長就被提名人蔣榮先生之說明來 請張秘書長"},{"start":1407.87,"end":1435.091,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生各位媒體先進朋友今天貴委員會召開本會期第一次的聯席會議審查行政院提名蔣榮鑫為國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為主任委員陳明修為委員並為副主任委員那黃薇薇及羅惠文兩位為委員之同意案本人應邀列席報告深感榮幸那國家通傳播通訊委員會"},{"start":1436.272,"end":1464.985,"text":"是憲法保障通訊傳播自由的重要守門人更是在數位時代當中國家通訊安全與數位主權的重要防線依照NCC的組織法NCC致力於促進通訊傳播的健全發展維護國民權利保障消費者的利益提升多元文化尤其隨著極端氣候的變遷AI的應用普及以及資安的新時代的挑戰"},{"start":1466.553,"end":1492.589,"text":"日益嚴峻那NCC將來更是要肩負起防堵電競差期強化災防韌性的重要工作那這次的提名工作是依據NCC組織法第四條第一項第三項第四項所來辦理那回顧這次NCC新任委員的提名歷程那前任委員"},{"start":1494.11,"end":1521.144,"text":"這個陳耀祥翁伯中林立雲與王維京四個人的任期在去年的7月31號屆滿行政院在去年的4月30號依法提名並送請貴院來進行審查這個為未完成審查的程序並經貴院在今年的6月24號撤回同意的同意撤回提名然而為了確保NCC相關的業務持續推動"},{"start":1522.785,"end":1544.362,"text":"那行政院也依照立法院職權行使法第29條之一等相關規定在今年的7月31號將新提名的名單並同被提名人的最高學歷論文財產稅務刑案紀錄表等資料送請貴院審查那也跟這個委員會做一個說明"},{"start":1545.343,"end":1568.151,"text":"雖然新提名的委員如果經過立法院的同意不能夠來得及在去年的8月1號前任命但為了維持NCC組織法所定的任期交作制的精神並參考中選會的前例如果這個這次提名的四位新任的委員經過立法院的同意四位委員的任期"},{"start":1570.612,"end":1595.904,"text":"實際會從實際到職日起算到2028年7月31號為止那接著說明這次新任委員的提名原則主要有三項第一個是維持專業均衡那四位被提名人的專長涵蓋資訊法律傳播以及財經領域而不僅皆符合組織法的相關的規範也兼具了學術或者是實務的相關經驗"},{"start":1597.105,"end":1610.944,"text":"第二個是在黨籍的規定上也合法合規那這次的四位被提名人當中僅有陳明修先生為中國國民黨黨籍其餘三位被提名人是屬於無黨籍那如果經過貴院"},{"start":1612.95,"end":1641.716,"text":"同意任命那通常會未來的全體的七位委員當中僅有一位是國民黨籍那其餘六位皆為無黨籍那有黨籍的比例僅有14.3%完全符合這個組織法規定當中同一黨籍不得超過委員總數二分之一的相關規定那第三個提名的原則則是四位被提名的人當中都沒有中國的戶籍或者是身份證件那也沒有外國的永久居留權"},{"start":1642.856,"end":1654.745,"text":"無涉外的疑慮也符合相關的國籍規範那接著容許我用一點時間來介紹這四位被提名人首先是今天也是馬上要審查的蔣榮軒委員並為主任委員那蔣榮軒"},{"start":1658.688,"end":1681.527,"text":"先生他現任是國立成功大學資工系及研究所的教授專長為資訊及網路管理在人工智慧資訊安全醫療照護巨量資料分析等領域是有著住的這個學友專精那也曾經擔任過成大醫院的資訊長在COVID-19的疫情期間也曾領導跨域的團隊開發AI的判讀模型"},{"start":1684.389,"end":1699.855,"text":"兼具科技專業跟社會實踐能力那蔣龍先生他也曾經在2022年獲得聯合國教科文組織UNESCO推舉為全球Top 10的AI團隊這也是亞洲唯一入選的團隊"},{"start":1701.115,"end":1717.893,"text":"那第二位陳明修委員並為副主任委員那相信這個許多委員對他是有一定的熟悉度那他是現任東吳大學法學院的特聘教授專長為法律那在經濟行政法管制理論特許法制憲法訴訟資訊等基本權學有專長"},{"start":1721.697,"end":1737.569,"text":"他是國民黨籍那也承認公務員保障保訓會的專任委員那也曾經擔任過NCC一開始的這個調解委員或數位委員那在公法的法治監理體系有富有豐富的經驗"},{"start":1739.175,"end":1766.232,"text":"那第三位是黃薇薇委員那黃薇薇委員現任是國立政治大學廣電系的教授那專長為影音媒體市場傳播理論法規與媒體的識讀尤其在深耕兒少網路安全等傳播領域是非常的有深耕這個也有相當的努力那他曾經擔任iWIN網路內容防護機構執行長也曾經擔任過衛星工會以及多家媒體"},{"start":1766.912,"end":1787.242,"text":"的新聞倫理或者是自律委員會的委員或者是主任委員對媒體的自律創新跟公共責任有深厚的時機那第四位是羅惠文委員那羅惠文委員他現任是世新大學傳播管理學系的助理教授專長是傳播政策傳播產業公共媒體政治經濟"},{"start":1788.342,"end":1810.49,"text":"等方面那因為他的學金力也是這個經濟學的博士所以他除了傳播之外也有財經方面的相關的專業那他也曾經擔任過公視基金會的董事媒體改造學社的理事長長期關注媒體改革與傳播產業發展的領域那縱觀這個這次四位被提名人雖然來自於不同的專業領域但卻展現出"},{"start":1813.931,"end":1839.998,"text":"公共責任感與社會關懷的共通點那這樣的組合加上現有的三位委員相信更能夠深化台灣在數位民主治理的厚度與韌性那更能讓NCC在AI的時代能夠平衡自由與秩序創新與安全那依照這個NCC組織法第八條的規定NCC是依法"},{"start":1841.309,"end":1869.921,"text":"獨立行使職權然而我們所有人都期待NCC能夠獨立於政治但不脫離社會依法行使職權也主動回應人民的期待這次是為被提名人敬請貴院能夠同意支持讓NCC在AI與數位治理的新時代持續專業獨立跟公信力守護人民的通訊自由與資訊安全以上報告敬請各位委員先進執教謝謝"},{"start":1876.266,"end":1898.881,"text":"謝謝張敦海秘書長的說明現在要先進行列席委員的介紹首先介紹洪孟凱召委何新淳委員徐滬葵委員現在要邀請被提名人蔣榮鮮先生做說明"},{"start":1928.091,"end":1952.979,"text":"請容我有幾分鐘的時間來介紹自己我來自一個很平凡的家庭就像是典型的五年級生成長在台灣經濟起飛的時代那個時候小時候看著媽媽繳學費的時候在裱花也看著自己的家庭的經濟逐漸變好也就是我們所謂的最有韌性的那一代我們這一代很幸運"},{"start":1954.147,"end":1969.933,"text":"就是亲眼见证了整个国家从农业工业然后进入到一个资讯世代的转变在80年代进入90年代的时候大学毕业之后存了一些钱然后呢很幸运的就拿到美国奖学金到美国读书了"},{"start":1971.721,"end":1991.562,"text":"那個時候其實很簡單反正到哪個學校都一樣那就是哪一個學校給獎學金哪個學校學費最便宜我就去哪裡所以35年前很意外的我選擇了美國密蘇里大學哥倫比亞分校去讀到了美國才知道原來這所學校"},{"start":1992.745,"end":2019.454,"text":"在1908年就設計就建立了全世界第一所的新聞學院他在中華民國還沒有開國之前就建立了這個新聞學院那當年呢他們所撰寫的新聞人的誓言也就是我們所熟知的媒體人守則一直到今天都在使用那一百多年來這個母校一直是很多年的都是美國第一名的一個新聞系所"},{"start":2020.41,"end":2040.813,"text":"那台灣的許多知名的媒體的記者女士先生們都曾在那邊留學這也是我和所謂的新聞媒體的第一次接觸也沒想到解下了不解之緣那時候印象非常深刻每天在學校免費的CNN的節目有一個節目叫Crossfire在那個Crossfire上面上叫做交叉火力"},{"start":2042.089,"end":2055.661,"text":"美国最有名的辩论节目跟我们现在目前在台湾的立法院差不多每天针锋相对大家辩论然后辩论政策的价值也让我自己体会到了媒体第四权有了深刻的体认"},{"start":2057.998,"end":2072.425,"text":"我是在一九九五年的五月獲得電腦博士那一年剛好遇到大家所知的一九九五年潤八月大家都知道印象深刻隔年發生了第一次台海危機同時呢中共的試射飛彈"},{"start":2073.993,"end":2097.161,"text":"那我畢業之後拿到四個工作機會後來呢才知道了因為我博士學位期間呢參與了美國克林頓總統指派高爾進行的美國國家資訊通訊基礎建設計畫也就是所謂美國的NII計畫那這個計畫呢是我的博士論文的一個部分後來呢在國內呢同一時期呢當時的"},{"start":2099.541,"end":2117.94,"text":"總統府的執政李國麟先生看到了台灣也就藉這個機會應該可以發展網際網路所以當時指派了夏漢銀先生就是當時的政務委員夏漢銀先生預計要招募十位從美國參加過美國NIA國家計畫的人能夠回來台灣因為台灣沒有經驗"},{"start":2119.858,"end":2139.924,"text":"很慶幸的我是那十位中的一位那當年在美國那時候還要打月亮電話的時候有天的深夜我接到了夏漢明先生的電話他打來電話就問我說蔣博士你確定你要回來台灣嗎因為台灣很緊張喔那他言談之中告訴我說其實"},{"start":2141.277,"end":2169.389,"text":"他們預計招募的人選沒有那麼樂觀聽說要回來了五位最後只有兩位回來他確定說李國廷先生希望知道你會回來那我其實聽了非常感動我覺得自己有這個機會能夠參與這樣子自己發揮的專長所以後來也就讓我回台灣之後我大半輩子的工作行政工作都是在做網際網路的管理我從最基礎的"},{"start":2170.256,"end":2197.535,"text":"在大学教课之余我担任组长到主任然后到资讯长等等那也就是当年的台湾的学术网络TANET也许各位不知道什么叫TANET我跟大家介绍一下也就是全台湾所有的国小生国中生高中职大学的学生和教授们他们每一天在使用的网络全盛时期这个TANET使用者大概将近有500万人我当时负责国家南部网络中心的主任"},{"start":2198.769,"end":2222.701,"text":"那也就是讓我有這個機會見證到了那是台灣第一次透過海底電纜和國際接軌的這個機會跨越了國境連接了世界那最近的中華電信它呢終於邁入三十週年很多人都知道那我們也很很慶幸我能夠慶幸自己參與了這個數位國力的縮影感到很很驕傲"},{"start":2224.028,"end":2244.576,"text":"其中我的工作當中有一個比較特別的經驗就是在1999年大家可能聽過Y2K事件我其實就是Y2K事件的最主要的主角之一當年所有人在1999年12月31號的半夜準備要跨年的時候我在成大帶著一群工程師們盯著電腦的螢幕確認所有電腦都不會因為Y2K之後"},{"start":2251.21,"end":2273.625,"text":"電腦全部斷機斷線然後所有的飛彈亂射或者所有的電腦作業不正常我個人感覺到非常驕傲而且很焦慮那也是那一代所謂的網路管理者專屬的記憶當然跨越千禧年來我們進到21世紀了走完了第一個四分之一個世紀了已經2025年了"},{"start":2275.373,"end":2296.131,"text":"我個人很慶幸的見證了從波階上往就是滴滴答答滴滴答那個波階線一直到現在的次世代光纖可以看到從應用面向整個打造台灣的數位社會的一個生態系台灣的土地非常小但是數位世界的疆土非常大"},{"start":2297.253,"end":2308.822,"text":"我們已經不是一個二流的國家了數位科技可以讓媒體和通訊傳播業跟傳統有了很大的不同可以透過創新培養屬於台灣的軟實力我個人很期待NCE能夠把媒體視為一個產業"},{"start":2317.581,"end":2344.333,"text":"將來能夠把通訊傳播電訊複製成一個活躍的產業而且營造一個公平而且健康的環境他就像運動一樣嘛各位可能知道你喜歡統一師他喜歡魏全龍當然我們也可以有中信兄弟那麼多的球隊啊所以這是粉絲經濟學的概念所以我們期待未來的NCC呢他的挑戰不是只有頻道的分配"},{"start":2345.734,"end":2375.063,"text":"而是能夠讓產業媒體跟公民之間形成一個公平透明又充滿活力的競爭的環境那當然我自己對於通訊傳播產業有這樣的期許第一點我希望我能夠身為被提名人我能夠去以我的力量以我的想法能夠保障言論自由跟多元媒體的生態除非導致明顯且立即的危險"},{"start":2376.653,"end":2403.912,"text":"就像是我在回答了三大党团总共40道题目当中我非常详细的叙述了除非导致明显且立即的危险任何言论不应该受限制确保不论媒体的大小你的背景或者你的立场都能有公平的发展空间都能有他们发声的空间让社会大众能够接触更多元的观点"},{"start":2405.782,"end":2434.01,"text":"第二点呢期待能够推动跟时代接轨的通讯传播的法规来因应科技的演进例如对深圳市AI的内容5G的频谱社群平台等一些新兴的议题通传会应该主动与其他部会共同研拟法规还有产业的指引例如相对的政策还有制定更开放更透明还有扩大公众参与的方式"},{"start":2434.929,"end":2462.615,"text":"避免政策落後於技術發展第三點我覺得將來在強化各種媒體平台它的責任跟透明度上面將最重要的舉個例子來說可以主動要求大型社群的媒體跟網路的平台針對假新聞假訊息還有甚至於操控的演算法以及用戶隱私管理更具有透明度"},{"start":2463.885,"end":2487.933,"text":"同時呢也持續跟這個社群平台業者和社會大眾溝通來實現用跨域來做打仗一些民眾所期待的這些議題那最後呢我覺得實現普及以及公平的這樣子一個網路連接特別是在偏鄉弱勢的社群當中能夠加速推動寬頻建設價格合理"},{"start":2489.242,"end":2500.694,"text":"縮短全民的數位落差那當然NCC最重要的工作是維護閱聽人跟消費者的權益那能夠持續的賭詐能夠強化用戶的數據規範等等這都是NCC將來可以做的"},{"start":2507.301,"end":2527.133,"text":"我同時也知道部分的公民團體基金會非常關切NCC的業務甚至於在這個週末兩天前的下午還提出了問卷個人非常感謝這些學者專家很精闢的提問不過我仍然以立法院大院三大黨團內在稍早提出了40個問題我個人逐一詳細的回應了"},{"start":2530.785,"end":2558.522,"text":"由於時間還有個人的專業能力有限那多項提問呢也許有不詳細的地方也請各位見諒那對於NCC我的期待非常單純它必須是一個專業能夠體察民意的獨立機關我會希望未來有機會的話請各位一點時間我一定讓各位看到一個有願景"},{"start":2559.554,"end":2570.98,"text":"值得期待正直獨立的公務機關那我也期待也希望能夠帶領這一群懂技術懂政策懂人民需求的專業團隊謝謝大家蔣榮謙先生說明完畢現在補充介紹列席委員林國成委員"},{"start":2588.018,"end":2610.443,"text":"葛如君委員現在我們要邀請第一位登記發言的委員首先邀請洪孟凱召委來發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請蔣備提名人蔣備提名人"},{"start":2624.576,"end":2646.003,"text":"好長輩提名人好康凱基揚的演說不過我們還是回歸到NCC被提名為主委的一個部分我還願意一下因為本席一直很關心行政院什麼時候要提出名單但是我們在去年就詢問當時院長也說要送出就到最後沒有"},{"start":2646.573,"end":2663.13,"text":"今年4月也詢問院長也說要送出到時候沒有直到7月31號滿了一年才送出我想先請教主委什麼時候跟院長有碰到面然後跟院長有詳談邀請您擔任主委這樣的一個角色"},{"start":2664.943,"end":2691.452,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我必須要詳細的說明詳細的日期我可能一時解不清楚了但是卓院長非常的認真那有跟我有做兩次的會談對 什麼時間點那應該是我的問題因為當時我們學校因為所有的社會平民都是養生在正值上課期間那上課期間我們都沒有辦法做LEAK基金的答應所以行政院院長有找你談過兩次"},{"start":2693.41,"end":2708.216,"text":"是的第一次在什麼時間點差不多第一次是也就是接近了六七月的時候六七月那第二次呢差不多那個時候一個是六月一個是七月是不是是"},{"start":2708.8,"end":2735.416,"text":"不是被提名人這個問題應該很好回答吧這也不是陷阱題你就是院長有找你談過而且也詳細談了嘛對不對那差不多六七月的時候因為如果說連這問題都沒有辦法告訴國人的話那我們很難問下去那今天回答的都是誠實的回答嘛對不對好OK所以一個六月一個七月那有沒有印象差不多談了多久在院長的辦公室嗎還是"},{"start":2737.867,"end":2761.386,"text":"是在院長辦公室那談這時間呢我可能沒有辦法記得那麼詳細的但是呢兩次的時間第一次談的時間比較長大約有20分鐘的時間20分鐘所以院長一來就已經跟你講是說他希望提名你並且擔任主委的角色不是院長只是提名我希望能夠擔任被提名人而已謝謝是那之後"},{"start":2762.662,"end":2792.258,"text":"什么时候认为是说你合适因为四位委员嘛都学有专精每一位委员我们也都看过了那到最后是提名你并且担任主委的角色主要是什么样的一个最后的一个决定是您回答的让他觉得说你很有风骨很有专业还是院长觉得是说跟你比较投缘非常谢谢委员提问其实我并不知道我只是最后被告知可能会去需要担任被评议人然后兼主任委员"},{"start":2792.583,"end":2817.145,"text":"所以這兩次談完也都沒有跟你講是說你到最後會當主委被提名主委是的好來被提名的人因為之前前NCC不管是委員或主委其實違反行政中立慶祝難輸啊那其實高居民調最不滿意如果說真的有做最不滿意的民調我想NCC也一直讓國人沒有辦法相信那"},{"start":2817.765,"end":2835.948,"text":"因此既然你已經被提名為被提名主委了那你覺得如何洗白網路上有看到NCC張CC這樣的一個汙名本席其實很不喜歡對於我們任何的機關有這樣的汙名為什麼因為這每一個機關其實都是代表中華民國但是"},{"start":2838.24,"end":2855.368,"text":"面子是自己丟的NCC為什麼會讓大家覺得說張嘻嘻其實最主要原因還是因為過去很多的一個例子都是讓大家覺得說沒有行政中立所以主委可不可以簡單說明一下如果真的有機會你被提名了擔任主委了那怎麼樣恢復民眾對於NCC的獨立性"},{"start":2858.134,"end":2885.421,"text":"好 謝謝委員的問題那我剛剛有說過其實對NCC我個人的期待它一定是一個專業然後能夠體察民意的一個獨立機關如果說到要真的要做到如何獨立的話我必須承認我本身在執政黨有朋友在在野黨也有朋友所以我期待在我上任那一天起我會堅持與執政黨跟在野黨保持等距"},{"start":2886.533,"end":2895.369,"text":"也就是所謂的保持政治上的等距我相信唯有這樣子的我才能夠獨立行使職權那當然我必須跟這朋友們說抱歉了謝謝"},{"start":2897.421,"end":2922.371,"text":"所以未來你上任如果說正有機會上任之後你不會跟這些朋友聯繫那如果說朋友主動找你呢因為過去很多的NCC委員甚至有NCC委員屆滿在卸任前發表公開信痛批正媒集體化他直言NCC嚴重的腐化跟腐敗變更條明NCC變成首長制委員不具決策權你怎麼看"},{"start":2925.119,"end":2942.359,"text":"呃我相信這是他個人的言論謝謝那剛才呃我還不是必須回答其實所謂的政治上的等句並不不不不懂於友誼上的等句謝謝委員什麼意思也就是說我會希望能夠在跟執政黨與在野黨"},{"start":2943.717,"end":2961.018,"text":"保持到政治上的等距但是並不意味著我友誼上面所以友誼朋友還是可以交但是如果說講到公事的時候就行政中立我看你怎麼行政中立最主要是過去我們也看到NCC上一屆的NCC的委員"},{"start":2962.279,"end":2984.105,"text":"因為所謂的這個官司一直持續的連敗我不知道你有沒有注意到NCC其實已經連敗了好幾件官司甚至濫罰的這個裁量到最後也都被撤銷這是行政法院這邊判決出來那NCC委員從2018年NCC每年編列的法律諮詢費用150萬一年到2023年已經高達1310萬"},{"start":2989.947,"end":3006.502,"text":"十倍之多那如果說假設你有機會上任的話你會針對這一些一一敗訴的部分還要提起上訴還是你認為過去的一些政治紛擾的部分應該要喊停了請說明好 謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":3007.947,"end":3035.846,"text":"台灣是一個民主法治國家所以一切是以現在的最後的法律的裁決來做最後的決定謝謝那至於NCC內部呢所以你的意思言下之意是說不管你上任之後前面多少爛攤子即便是你不認同他的一個裁量的行為但是該編的法律諮詢費用編的打官司的費用你會編好編滿是這意思嗎不是這個意思謝謝那不然什麼意思"},{"start":3036.694,"end":3062.559,"text":"應該就是說依法行政依法行政啊對啊那我現在在問你請教您的是說現在已經連續敗訴26敗NCC不承認然後持續編1310萬的法律諮詢費用請律師來跟民間企業打官司啊那你要怎麼樣打未來你是要持續打官司還是你認為是說應該要大破大立過去不合理的部分應該要喊停了不要再繼續上訴"},{"start":3065.799,"end":3091.176,"text":"那我想我現在是被提名的人我會等到有機會上任的時候你沒有想過這個議題你不認為說這一題是我們會詢問的國人所關心的 大家所重視的請回答應該現階段呢我還沒有辦法去直接回答 謝謝沒有辦法回答來我最後再請教你剛剛講了一個誠實很重要"},{"start":3092.759,"end":3109.469,"text":"招委已經站起來了所以我想請教誠實很重要請再回答一次什麼時候院長找你談過請你提名NCC的委員你剛講6月7月我最後再給你一個機會什麼時候院長找你談過提名NCC的委員"},{"start":3112.662,"end":3134.431,"text":"什麼時候好我可以等一下查我的行事曆然後仔細的詳細的回答謝謝所以剛六月七月是隨便講講不是六月七月是我的憑記憶謝謝那不是很簡單嘛你現在講一個如果說你連兩三個月前院長找你那麼重要的事情你都回答不出來我們怎麼有辦法相信你有辦法獨立行使公正客觀的權利跟責任"},{"start":3135.854,"end":3143.566,"text":"擔任一個NCC獨立機關主委的角色連院長什麼時候找你談都想不起來"},{"start":3146.004,"end":3173.181,"text":"謝謝也請不是 趙偉趙偉不覺得這個問題很重要嗎因為我不清楚說為什麼會被提名人居然剛剛在國會答詢的時候可以那麼草率的回答本席的問題所以他必須要回去好 那什麼時候什麼時候你沒有一個印象院長找你兩次是的什麼時間點6月7月是不是是的是6月7月是"},{"start":3175.182,"end":3196.145,"text":"一次是5月5號5月5號好5月5號請去看一下公開的質詢在4月底的時候就有本院的委員質詢行政院院長說什麼時候要提名NCC的委員結果行政院院長在4月底講說就已經名單確認了等待送出來"},{"start":3197.046,"end":3208.531,"text":"如果你是5月5號才第一次跟卓榮泰院長見面並且你講說你們有見面兩次在第二次的時候你才被確定要提名的話那到底是行政院長說謊還是你說謊誠實是國人對NCC委員最基本的期待很顯然"},{"start":3225.051,"end":3240.829,"text":"主委你無話可說 啞口無言也請主委被提名的人先請回座也必須查明相關的形勢力要做明確的說明我在這邊再補充"},{"start":3242.741,"end":3261.347,"text":"說明本會會議的進行程序尊重每一位委員的發言時間所以六分鐘時間到了響鈴一次接下來如果委員無法在一分鐘內再做收尾的話我們會再響鈴三次然後再每過30秒"},{"start":3263.147,"end":3274.217,"text":"也會再想你一次再做一次的說明不論黨派所有委員發言世界我們都同樣的給予尊重以及基本的規範現在請葛如軍委員發言"},{"start":3295.563,"end":3301.182,"text":"謝謝主席有請被提名人蔣榮鑫先生請被提名人蔣先生"},{"start":3307.386,"end":3332.597,"text":"委員好蔣先生好恭喜您這次被提名為NCC委員並且為主任委員在此您也說明了您對於NCC業務的立場首先我想對於這個時序的黑箱也希望您之後可以再多做說明那您剛剛有提到幾個關鍵字公平言論自由一定要堅持這一點我也想先詢問您一下近期有這個教育部"},{"start":3333.958,"end":3356,"text":"說這個中小學的Wi-Fi要擋掉抖音還發了公文要警告說小紅書很危險到各大學校同時呢 成大也發生了疑似有這個長城在擋住這個B站的這個問題請問您如果上任以後您認為您同不同意應該要盡量避免這樣的事情"},{"start":3358.732,"end":3384.357,"text":"好 謝謝委員那很非常謝謝委員提到這個有關於中小學的抖音或者是像這樣子的一個社群媒體使用的情形那台灣還是一個民主自由的國家所以呢我們可能無法向某些國家去用強制性的方式去做限制那然而呢在中小學生在學校的階段他所接觸到的"},{"start":3384.957,"end":3387.399,"text":"對 您剛剛也提到了這個多元啊這個多元在這個上面就突然被覆蓋過去了嗎"},{"start":3402.522,"end":3430.283,"text":"並沒有好沒關係這個我們之後再來請教我想您剛剛的意見也表達得算相當清楚那我想另外您剛剛的公平我想我還是要持續來詢問一下首先NCC在今年的2月有對每件31產品收取750元審查費的事件引發民怨沸騰上路5天之後又暫緩收取那這整件事情缺乏跟民眾的直接溝通凝聚社會共識的管道"},{"start":3430.703,"end":3448.399,"text":"跟社會民意完全脫節您剛剛說要體察民意我想這整個叫做750之亂的事件您就任為主任委員以後您是不是支持應該要避免這種缺乏民意基礎NCC貿然施行政策的情況請回答"},{"start":3449.602,"end":3469.457,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問確實這個750之亂如果以我一般的民眾來講的角度來講我也感受到民眾對於這樣子覺得不適當知不知實這樣的做法不好意思不用重複我的問題謝謝所以呢如果說我上任NCC之後呢我們會避免這樣子的"},{"start":3470.558,"end":3485.78,"text":"更改或者政策不一致 很好 與民眾充分的溝通一定要完全避免那另外我想你們會不會再研議又要再來收一次這樣的審查費因為民間一直有在傳你們只是暫停有沒有可能再研議 支持嗎我不支持 謝謝"},{"start":3486.67,"end":3516.221,"text":"很好我想這個不體察民意的世界我們都不要再發聲另外其實為什麼有這個750之亂是因為有人工竹案審查而且它還不是實質審查其實這樣的一個程序是非常用人工的方式至少一件有可能要花半小時以上就文件審查還不是實質射頻審查另外民間人一直在講各國都有所謂電子射頻器材的審查"},{"start":3516.641,"end":3544.548,"text":"已經通過已經安全的東西進到台灣還要再重新審查一次有沒有可能做跨國資料的同步請教貝提名人您的資歷非常的完整又有數位又有網路人工智慧巨量分析 檢查有沒有機會假設您就任主委積極的向行政院爭取資源促進NCC的人工審查流程加速AI化 科技化非常謝謝委員提問這個完完全全是跟我的想法是一致的"},{"start":3545.522,"end":3574.633,"text":"一個數位的政府就該用這種方式來去自動的好謝謝之後希望有機會這個順利上任的話希望請您加油另外也請教貝提名人您也擅長科技領域我們也很高興能夠用同樣的語言我相信你有聽過eSIM就是數位的SIM卡2015年就已經存在了現在已經2025年了它有可能持續用在手機穿戴裝置車載裝置物聯網甚至是無人機上面"},{"start":3575.333,"end":3590.059,"text":"但是本席近期接獲很多民眾陳情只說國內各大業者均一價的向用戶收取eSIM300元的設定費每次轉移再300元民眾有質疑"},{"start":3590.839,"end":3615.393,"text":"可能有聯合壟斷市場的嫌疑另外呢也有部分媒體質疑為什麼國外的電信業者轉換eSIM的時候不需要收取費用為什麼國內的電信業者就要收取費用據了解NCC2023年曾經向國內電信業者提出著語減免設定費的呼籲但顯然沒有成效想請教被提名人站在促進數位人權與科技應用的立場"},{"start":3616.013,"end":3628.752,"text":"我的eSIM也是我的NCC應該要提升消費者對eSIM的接受度假如您就任主委是不是願意邀集國內電信業者再度就減免eSIM設定費的議題積極與電信業者進行溝通協調"},{"start":3632.577,"end":3648.432,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提問確實這個在我的立場上我一定會支持能夠讓國人或者是其他的科技按在這個科技將來的發展的鼓勵的立場上應該是跟業者溝通那這個費用確實聽起來這費用是不合理的謝謝"},{"start":3649.67,"end":3664.516,"text":"好 謝謝您有這樣的一個機會來表達您的看法最後請教貝提名人電子簽章法修正草案已經在去年5月正式施行根據訴發部的答覆NCC沒有提出暫緩適用電子簽章的申請"},{"start":3665.376,"end":3681.828,"text":"同時據本席了解NCC所公布的行政命令電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當中也有適用電子簽章的相關規定然後本席辦公室又接獲非常多民眾的陳情目前辦理各項電信號碼的業務剛剛我們講的是價格跟過程"},{"start":3685.55,"end":3707.032,"text":"現在我要講的是還需要親自到林櫃去辦理這擾民又沒有效率eSIM又更嚴重了一個數位的裝置在設定在轉移的時候竟然還要親臨現場來辦理我們真的是數位之島嗎請教一下被提名的人您是志工系的教授我們也非常高興"},{"start":3707.793,"end":3728.496,"text":"同時也是資安的專家假如您就認為NCC的主委是不是可以允諾以專業的角度出發大力推動電信業務全面適用電子簽章啊讓很多的民眾在業務上面不要再有很忙很辛苦卻還要抽出時間臨櫃辦理的困擾這個部分能不能現場允諾"},{"start":3730.367,"end":3749.976,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那因為這個屬於NCC內部的業務的工作我個人在觀念上面會支持這樣的做法讓數位科技讓更方便那我不知道中間有什麼細節我想如果有機會上任的話我一定會優先把這個議題當作是NCC可以做的事情"},{"start":3750.636,"end":3776.333,"text":"謝謝您承諾這是一個優先議題我想您剛剛提到的八個關鍵字我們都希望假設您有幸可以上任我們也期待您能夠把這八個字真的能夠落實第一個 體察民意第二個 運用科技以上的問題也謝謝被提名人的答覆我們未來一起交流 謝謝謝謝各位的發言我們接著有請李坤澤召委"},{"start":3791.303,"end":3795.067,"text":"謝謝謝謝許富奎主席現在請蔣榮軒被提名人有請我們蔣被提名人"},{"start":3806.622,"end":3821.042,"text":"蔣榮軒先生您好最近我們就直接來問相關的NCC的業務那最近台北車站發生相關的性侵的事件那當然"},{"start":3822.062,"end":3839.271,"text":"媒體在報導相關的性侵害性騷擾甚至是兒童兒少的保護事件的時候他必須還是要遵守相關的法令就是我們看到性侵害"},{"start":3840.231,"end":3867.55,"text":"犯罪防治法的第13條第一項以及性騷擾防治法以及相關的兒童及兒少的福利法他們都有兩個基本的原則第一個原則就是不得揭露相關當事人的或者是足以辨識當事人被害人的身份這是一個重要的原則第二個是要保障"},{"start":3869.071,"end":3894.936,"text":"保護被害人的隱私這是兩個主要的原則但是我們在這一次看到相關的報導過程裡面很遺憾的還是有部分的媒體他的隱蔽其實是非常的粗糙這個沒有辦法去做到能夠明顯的這樣的一個保障被害人的隱私以及破壞了這種不得"},{"start":3897.573,"end":3905.992,"text":"可以辨識被害人身份的這樣的一個基本的一個限制跟保障我現在要請教"},{"start":3908.224,"end":3927.219,"text":"蔣先生 被提名者我們對於這樣的報導的過程這樣粗糙的隱蔽沒有辦法去保障被害人的身分不得已被辨識的這樣一個重要的原則如何保護被害人的隱私這樣的一個基本的原則來 請你說明一下"},{"start":3928.935,"end":3946.692,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我也確實有當看到這個新聞的時候自己覺得非常的難過確實我們的新聞媒體還有它的專業性它在報導的時候其實因為本身NCC並不做新聞的內容審查"},{"start":3947.953,"end":3961.097,"text":"所以呢新聞的素材它是不是能夠清楚的能夠針對保護兒少的議題或者甚至於弱勢的這樣的議題能夠針對這樣的議題做更好的這樣子的保護應該是會更好的"},{"start":3961.792,"end":3985.247,"text":"那當然就是這件事情的事後呢就我所知道應該是國鐵公司呢還有將這樣的資料呢或者就做一些遮蔽那當然如果說是一個合理的一個做法的話我相信當不管是報案人或者是受害者他們都不希望這樣的事情發生"},{"start":3986.427,"end":3998.452,"text":"媒體在這件事情報導的過程當中不適當的使用這些影音這些甚至於資料其實確實是不適合的謝謝"},{"start":3999.639,"end":4024.374,"text":"好當然我們都要尊重新聞媒體的報導的自由以及言論的自由但是類似這樣的一個事件其實社會以及法令都有基本的而且是很嚴肅的原則這兩個原則不管是不得揭露主語辨識被害人身份以及保護被害人隱私這樣的重要原則是必須要堅持那現在因為NCC"},{"start":4025.094,"end":4038.886,"text":"的委員人數不足啊當然在做行政處置的時候當然會陷入相關的困境如果人數不足這樣的狀況繼續發生那相關的NCC會做怎樣的一個處理來你說明一下"},{"start":4040.279,"end":4059.258,"text":"是 現在目前的NCC由於委員人數不足所以成立了一個資訊委員會那對於重大的案件現在目前暫時是做擱置 做列管的動作那當NCC重新如果有機會再順利啟動的話我們的委員會就會"},{"start":4064.369,"end":4082.439,"text":"就如同NCC組織法所列的那會詳細的把所有的這些案件都逐一的考量好 我的重點是如果委員會NCC的委員人數仍然不足來作為相關的行政處置的時候你認為NCC要遵循怎樣的處理方式來處理呢"},{"start":4086.185,"end":4105.973,"text":"NCC的基本的核心理念其實是保障通訊傳播這所有是這個市場的公平以及監理的工作那目前NCC內部的研議他們在依法確實是無法去實行委員會但是他仍然有相關的不同的"},{"start":4107.213,"end":4133.952,"text":"處是會針對不同的問題去做處理所以呢像這些類似的問題也許不需要進到委員會去做大方向的決定好另外你有做基本的回覆啦那我再進步來跟就教育被提名人你有提到你認同新聞媒體善用AI是屬於高影響力的這樣一個領域那"},{"start":4135.253,"end":4154.556,"text":"它的核心理念當然就是要真實透明隱私跟避免偏見要制定相關的這樣的一個指引相關的法規人才的補助相關的透明報告等等那其實我們看到現在台灣還沒有建制這一種"},{"start":4155.757,"end":4183.205,"text":"具有法律強制力的AI內容的標示或者是相關的審核制度那其實我們看到有很多的這樣的一個媒體其實已經在使用AI的撰稿AI的合成主播AI的輔助剪輯影像的生成等等那觀眾卻是沒有辦法去得知這些內容是否是AI來產生那"},{"start":4184.065,"end":4211.931,"text":"你提出這種AI的透明度報告或是倫理指引但是實際上業界都會跟你說這是我們的商業機密所以他拒絕揭露相關的這樣的一個基本的資料那你要怎麼去實質的落實你是否贊成應該公部門學界還有公民團體三方共審的一個方式來最後讓你說明"},{"start":4213.015,"end":4236.679,"text":"好的 非常謝謝委員的提案確實我們知道過去媒體的自律第二個他律以及法律這樣的做法是多年來因循的做法那新聞媒體本身是高影響力有了AI之後就像是站在巨人肩膀上那換句話說它也是影響非常大我個人覺得能夠在這三方面去共管coregulate應該會是將來的一個趨勢謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4248.704,"end":4254.227,"text":"謝謝徐富奎委員現在請黃國昌主席發言請備提名人"},{"start":4272.449,"end":4290.694,"text":"委員長安蔣老師好老師在你自己專業領域當中的著作多數以外文發表我稍微瀏覽了一下你的著作目錄看了一下對於老師在你自己專業領域當中學術上面的表現我個人是高度肯定我個人是高度肯定"},{"start":4291.654,"end":4308.843,"text":"但是接下來的提問也要請蔣老師能夠體諒因為這是NCCNCC處理電信 處理媒體涉及龐大的商業利益更攸關台灣民主的成熟或者是台灣目前正媒集團的墮落"},{"start":4309.944,"end":4337.61,"text":"所以接下來的問題可能蔣老師既然已經被提名了你在你的著作當中你也很誠實的說不管是電信還是媒體相關的事情你從來沒有做過任何的研究也沒有相關的任何的研究計畫為什麼提名您出任NCC的主委過去大概都是媒體或者是電信突然找蔣老師來當主任委員我擔心你是誤入叢林的小白兔"},{"start":4339.091,"end":4358.885,"text":"在這個過程當中讓自己可能遇到一些沒有辦法預期的狀況但這是人事同意權的審查我們對NCC委員非常的嚴肅接下來就請江老師直接針對問題回答第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員的"},{"start":4360.299,"end":4382.776,"text":"好的 剛才 謝謝委員第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員好 第一次呢 卓院長5月5日的時候有邀請我是 什麼時候點頭的那一次呢 我答應回去就去思考是所以兩個星期之後呢 那時候呢所以大概520就同意了嗎應該是之後因為我今天一定要追出來啊當初卓榮泰跳票"},{"start":4384.034,"end":4409.109,"text":"5月底以前NCC的名單要送到立法院一拖再拖他說裡面因為有人有生涯的考慮要配合他我聽不懂啦中華民國這麼重要的政府職位到底要因為哪一個人的生涯考慮拖到8月30號才送來結果我看8月底送來的資料明明5月的時候就整理好啦"},{"start":4410.174,"end":4429.599,"text":"五月整理好遲遲不送來拖到八月底是裡面真的有人說我有生涯考慮大家等我還是要等到大罷免大落賽了以後知道不能再拖了才送來第二個過去有NCC的主委竟然有業者"},{"start":4430.922,"end":4449.175,"text":"在民進黨秘書長洪耀福的帶領下直接找主委出來說這個禁電視的執照要拜託出來喬來 請問一下蔣老師未來如果有民進黨的秘書長去關說 說特定電視台的執照要給他過這個面你會這個面你會見還是不會見"},{"start":4458.176,"end":4480.517,"text":"會還是不會現在我沒有要把以前的事情歸咎在你身上陳耀祥做的是陳耀祥自己負擔洪耀福做的是洪耀福自己負擔但我要一個基本的態度謝謝當初問陳耀祥的時候他負無藥無菌人家只是來關心啊表達關切啊為什麼這個電視台的執照還沒有發啊"},{"start":4485.447,"end":4507.048,"text":"相同的情況發生在你身上你會接受這種關說嗎來請教江老師好的委員謝謝您的提問非常簡單的答案剛才我前面就已經說得很清楚了我有機會上任的話我會和執政黨與反對黨保持政治上的等距也就是說非常的清楚"},{"start":4507.848,"end":4530.853,"text":"政治上我老師說啦老師講的話非常政治正確但是其實老師只要講一句話秉持我的專業跟獨立依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦這樣就好了好那我馬上來進行第一個蔣老師可能過去對於新聞傳播比較沒涉獵我強烈推薦你林立雲跟王維京這兩個絕對不是藍的啦"},{"start":4534.375,"end":4546.187,"text":"這兩個也不是白的啦這兩個都是綠底的啦我跟這兩個老師很熟啊所以我說他們綠底他們不會他們不會介意啊綠營出身的傳播學者在講什麼"},{"start":4547.321,"end":4571.327,"text":"台灣政媒共生集團透過政治與媒體影響力藉由土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事個案與政策讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具不公正的新聞報導及節目導致台灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期居於世界排名倒數為台灣民主的另外一個危機"},{"start":4572.407,"end":4582.527,"text":"這不是我說的這是林立雲跟王維京兩位我尊敬的媒體界的前輩也是前NCC委員講的主委看到這樣的聲明你認不認同"},{"start":4584.465,"end":4603.034,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那已經卸任的委員他發表這樣的聲明那他應該是有他自己的說話的權利我個人覺得台灣的媒體將來能夠做得更好或變成一個很好的產業的話其實除了說服國人"},{"start":4603.954,"end":4630.391,"text":"能夠將自律的更好對啦 我也希望但在現在的環境當中我是很悲哀我直接用一個具體的主席站起來了我最後只用一分鐘用一個具體的例子給被提名的人看一看就是當初有民進黨撐腰違法取得執照的靜電視前兩天說我什麼說我用假對話截圖蒙騙社會"},{"start":4632.847,"end":4657.657,"text":"我黃國昌問政 從來沒有人敢說我拿出造假的資料孰可忍 孰不可忍啦我馬上要求說明澄清結果呢 結果出事發訊給我的人他的律師給我喊 證實我出的函全部都是真的那代表了什麼 代表了進電視在做假新聞"},{"start":4658.911,"end":4679.645,"text":"我要求他們公開道歉他們也沒公開道歉到目前為止裝死當中啊裝死當中啊指著我的鼻子說我造假人家發的律師函說我都是真的我要他道歉啊他不道歉沒有關係我不是問你態度立場我要考你法規啊依照現行的法律這樣的行為"},{"start":4681.431,"end":4689.08,"text":"依照現行的法律 NCC主管的法律不要講民法或刑法依照NCC主管的法律有哪一個條文在規範這樣的行為"},{"start":4691.135,"end":4709.749,"text":"好的 沒有確實NCC是保障人民的知情權那也就是說那些聽起來不喜歡的或者不舒服的不好意思喔我現在在問的是哪一條法律規範這樣的行為沒有有來所以我就跟你說你作為主委的被提名人要多熟悉自己未來要主管的法規衛星廣播電視法第27條"},{"start":4713.072,"end":4721.285,"text":"第53條的規定規範的很清楚 除了罰還座重還可以停止該節目或廣告採取必要的更正措施"},{"start":4723.092,"end":4737.383,"text":"蔣老師不是來自這個專業領域 衛廣法不熟我們大家願意給你時間跟空間但是怎麼取得社會跟國會的信任說蔣老師有這樣子的專業來擔任主委是接下來比較大的挑戰好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員質詢完畢現在請柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":4755.398,"end":4769.627,"text":"謝謝我們請我們你沒有回去休息好我們請我們的獎盃提名人好謝謝我像我目前為止還是叫你蔣老師好了而且你進到這個會場之後你應該發現被叫老師應該比這個被提名人這個頭銜來得更輕鬆一點沒錯吧"},{"start":4772.697,"end":4789.966,"text":"好來蔣老師我想以你的學經歷跟你的資訊專長來擔任我們的政府首長我個人覺得他是絕對符合資格的但是呢NCC長年以來他就是被大家詬病就是完全缺乏了這個所謂獨立的一個精神所以備受外面的一個抨擊"},{"start":4791.667,"end":4813.095,"text":"像去年11月這個NCC的這個主委這個代理這個主委翁博中在去職的時候還恐嚇民眾他告訴大家如果NCC委員懸缺恐怕沒有辦法開iPhone這個會議所以沒有辦法上市你對他這個說法這就是大家被詬病然後事實證明沒有啊iPhone還是如期上市沒有NCC好像還比較親近一點"},{"start":4813.815,"end":4840.473,"text":"所以這就是我們所提到的NCC的獨立自主甚至有人提到這個NCC被變成髒CC就是在過去當中太多太多的事件沒有辦法來我先幫這個被提名人回憶一下你看中天被撤造的事件這是台北高等行政法院就已經判定中天勝訴然後目前還在上訴還有推動數位中介這是引發非常多的平台業者是強力的一個反彈"},{"start":4841.434,"end":4868.46,"text":"還有包括進電視在剛開始的時候資金沒有到位還有高層人士三立入股宗家案違反媒體壟斷的底線這些狀況這個被提名人你有充分去理解嗎是然後呢你的看法我沒有辦法讓你在這麼短的時間是但是我只能說這些部分都是過去我們所列出來的一些我們認為是需要被釐清而NCC沒有辦法變成他一個獨立然後來看待這件事情更何況我呼應剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的"},{"start":4871.101,"end":4897.788,"text":"这都是离去之前非常真实的一个告白批判走向的正媒集团化而且呢对于新闻报道不公而且他特别还提到的这让我们新闻的频道完全失去了公信力跟社会影响力永远在表决的时候都是五比二二就是他们那当然大家会批判说你为什么在当任主委的委员的时候不敢讲离去的时候还讲我们每一个人都是这样子啊很多时候都是如此但是他们所讲的"},{"start":4898.328,"end":4912.64,"text":"還有包括我前面所調列的黑歷史無非就是最近為什麼一個可以是獨立的一個機關目前為止被大家才發現沒有辦法發揮所以身為一個主委的一個角色你未來如何洗掉張希希的這樣一個汙名"},{"start":4913.995,"end":4940.074,"text":"謝謝委員的提問確實我身為被庭名人其實我認知到就是在中天案當中應該去正視這個案件當中的一些輿論還有對於程序正義的一些疑慮應該正視這個問題那確實我也認知到引發社會對於NCC程序正義跟比例原則這樣的疑慮就是我認為NCC應該要深刻檢討"},{"start":4940.939,"end":4962.735,"text":"因為對我們來說身為一個在野黨人來說我們完全明確的只看到這個執政黨永遠很想介入這個NCC所以你覺得你有辦法去承擔這樣子的一個壓力然後來升任我們認為你應該是主管一個獨立精神的一個角色嗎你有辦法有這個抗壓性嗎好剛才我已經回前面委員的話就是我希望"},{"start":4963.686,"end":4985.845,"text":"未來有機會的話給我一點時間我會讓各位看到一個有願景值得期待政治獨立的機關我們當然非常希望因為我們也很希望NCC的委員可以透過這樣子能夠提出一個有專業然後最重要是他可以秉持著這個獨立的精神我想沒有人會否定這樣的一個角色而且我也認為NCC過去是有很多優秀的文官"},{"start":4986.565,"end":5008.941,"text":"所以說呢很多的團體難免會有一些的害群之馬我想你也應該知道嘛前NCC委員去當電信那個門神而且呢寫論文還可以付諮詢費等等所以呢最後我想請問你就是除了這個你剛剛已經保證說你會讓我們大家看到你都維持一個等距很獨立的但是呢很現實的問題你如何約束規範這些NCC的委員跟嚴守這個旋轉門那個規範然後維持"},{"start":5013.484,"end":5031.764,"text":"不是在你這一任而是你未來在過去已經被污名化如果說可以從你這邊開始徹底的改變這樣NC的感覺還有最重要的是你如何能夠讓這樣子一個NC的名聲再繼續的維持下去跟他的一個形象這個完全是個事實你怎麼樣來避免這樣的事情發生好 謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":5033.052,"end":5045.266,"text":"将来如果NCC能够有机会在那边工作的话我希望能够实现被社会大众认可的这种中立性还有程序正义这会是我的第一件工作而且是唯一的一件工作"},{"start":5045.609,"end":5064.391,"text":"不是 我還在問你你如何約束規範然後嚴守你剛剛所講的部分只是一個宣示性的作用但對我們來說我們需要很具體的一些的做法萬一你有看到或者是類似像這個狀況就表示過去一定有一些內部的管理出了一些的缺失所以才讓你們這些"},{"start":5065.532,"end":5084.533,"text":"这些委员里面呢会有这些的弊端出现你如何用一个更强制性的方法来避免这样的状况我刚刚特别提到的严守旋转门的这个规范你的具体的做法是什么不是一个口号的宣誓而言贝提米人是当然就是依法行政如果这些人有违法一定是惨"},{"start":5084.873,"end":5108.461,"text":"當然你違法一定是依法行政這都是被追到這個就是依法行政才會被發現在你的管理的層面上面非常多而且NCC不像是常常就會被叫出來這樣質詢你們有很多的委員過去在這麼做狀況的狀況之下面所以我才只要問你的這個整個的嚴格的一個規範上面不是依法行政這四個字有辦法解決的被提名人到目前為止"},{"start":5109.801,"end":5118.529,"text":"講話是非常的保守然後呢不斷的告訴我們你是可以但是我們看不出來在這整個的具體的做法上面這是我目前為止對你很大的一個疑問如果還允許我說的話"},{"start":5123.175,"end":5143.528,"text":"我希望能夠重建社會大眾對NCC的信任那做法呢很簡單如果你想知道的話我想委員我會開始去執行一個步驟一個步驟先求容易的求小勝然後呢最後累積成滴水穿石這種改革策略會一件一件把這件事做好"},{"start":5144.195,"end":5157.762,"text":"好吧因為你是被提名然後呢很多的具體的事件還沒有到你手上我只能說在今天這個國會殿堂上你能夠遵守遵守你的諾言讓我們一步一步的看到你到底有哪些的作為好謝謝好謝謝柯智恩委員發言完畢現在請萬美玲委員發言"},{"start":5174.34,"end":5199.281,"text":"謝謝趙偉 我們有請我們的蔣榮軒備題名人請備題名人委員早安好 備題名人你好我看到了你的縣職是成大資訊工程學系特殯的教授兼成大醫院健康數據資源中心執行長對嗎是"},{"start":5201.724,"end":5221.249,"text":"您的學歷是美國密蘇里大學電機技電腦工程所的博士 對嗎是的好 我可以帶看到你過去的專長跟研究的領域不管是在生醫資訊探勘人工智慧智慧型計算雲端醫療照護癌症與幹細胞研究等等這都是你的專業跟這個研究的領域"},{"start":5221.929,"end":5241.519,"text":"那我看過這些以後真的發現你在這些領域上面有著很卓越的一個成績喔但是呢你現在被提名為這個NCC的主委喔我看不出來你對於通訊傳播的這個專業上面有什麼地方那你怎麼認為自己可以來接這樣的一個職務喔那你的優勢是什麼我能不能給你一點時間讓你這個重點闡述一下"},{"start":5244.531,"end":5273.608,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員的提問那如同您所提到的確實我過去的專長是電腦博士專長是人工智慧那在過去的跟NCC有什麼關係過去的25年來我在做網際網路的管理我在做網路的管理所以從網路的所有的台灣學術網路當中500萬人在使用網路的所有網路的公約網路的制好 就是你對網路上面也有一些專業在是這樣嗎好 還有別的嗎"},{"start":5278.567,"end":5281.712,"text":"我還對網路上面的安全還是網路 是的還有別的嗎"},{"start":5286.895,"end":5309.748,"text":"還有像是例如我過去在行政工作上面其實也曾經去好網路網路加行政好OK好那如果說這個看起來網路網路加行政跟NCC的專業上面其實沒有那麼緊密的一個結合那我請教一下你剛才一直在講講了很多什麼"},{"start":5310.208,"end":5320.888,"text":"要重建信任啦 要相信我啦等等我想這件事情不能只有建立在信任上嘛那早上被尋到現在本席還沒有聽到你提出來你到底要怎麼具體做"},{"start":5324.431,"end":5348.832,"text":"呃 我想 請問委員的問題是說我要怎麼樣去把NCC做這組合做好所以我問你 你問我因為我確實剛沒有 沒有很清楚好 沒關係 那我再來問一題你比較能夠答的好不好你對於NCC啊 因為你要來接這個位子你一定有去了解一下NCC到底是什麼單位過去的歷史到底怎麼樣 有沒有做這個功課有的有 好 那你對於這幾年NCC的印象最深的是什麼"},{"start":5351.053,"end":5373.895,"text":"過去我們國人普遍對NCC不信任好 你的這個印象最深刻就是NCC不獲得國人的信任這是第一個 再來第二呢 就是我們發現到NCC有許多的在行政上面的裁罰呢已經引起了社會普遍的民眾的不滿意不信任 不滿意 好 還有嗎"},{"start":5377.725,"end":5389.952,"text":"所以NCC給你的整個概括起來的感覺就是我們不信任他我們也不滿意他好那我請教一下我們對於前組委陳耀祥組委過去的這個五年當中你覺得他做得好嗎"},{"start":5392.206,"end":5409.759,"text":"對個人的工作形容很抱歉我沒有辦法評論謝謝他是主委耶他是主委耶我沒有評論他個人好不好他是主委耶他帶領整個NCC耶你不評論他我確實沒有辦法評論他所以你也不了解他做的好不好那你知不知道我們在這個陳耀祥前主委的這個任內有哪些NCC的爭議事件"},{"start":5411.394,"end":5440.463,"text":"因為你剛剛告訴本席說你有去研究一下嘛你也去了解一下嘛因為自己即將要可能即將就要這個來NCC嘛被提名了嘛所以呢你有沒有去看了一下這些爭議的事件是哪些目前三大黨團的提問當中都有提到過去NCC普遍的爭議案例如中天案例如靜電視案例如其他的這個電訊傳播的這個收費案整件所以在三大黨團的提問當中的40道題目我都已經詳細的回應了"},{"start":5440.723,"end":5467.096,"text":"好 你都有了解嗎我想幾件 第一個2020年 我們聚中天換照這件事情鬧得沸沸揚揚 過程充滿瑕疵所以也引起了大家對NCC最不滿 最不信任大概從這裡開始在我們在看到這個數位仲介法也好 進電視上架也好三立入股中加案等等 這一些通通都是爭議本席就以2020年聚中天換照這件事情為例"},{"start":5468.136,"end":5486.769,"text":"這件事情 外界普遍認為有政治介入中天跟NCC之間的法律訴訟到現在還在進行中 請問貝提名人知道嗎知道這一段時間 我們看到NCC的訴訟的費用明顯的攀升從過去105年到109年 平均只有105萬110年到114年 總共編列多少錢"},{"start":5495.014,"end":5512.925,"text":"多少錢3856萬啦平均每一年要花771萬的公帑打官司啊這樣的花費您認為合理嗎值得嗎我對於預算的編列還有使用上面因為沒有任何的這個細節的了解這是我第一次看到 謝謝"},{"start":5514.13,"end":5531.437,"text":"沒有了解也要有概念啦 你覺得這樣合理嗎一個單位 在這幾年當中每年都要花700多萬來打官司 你覺得合理嗎如果連這題都打不出來 你怎麼將來待任CCR合理嗎這個費用確實是高的"},{"start":5532.488,"end":5555.537,"text":"確實是高的 好 我想因為今天時間也很有限我希望如果您真的有機會接任主委之後您是不是能夠在這裡保證再保證代理NCC回歸專業 然後保持中立未來能夠讓這個國人對NCC恢復信任而且最重要一點 絕對不受任何政治力的影響跟介入 這點您做得到嗎"},{"start":5556.697,"end":5571.143,"text":"謝謝 做得到做得到 保證做得到好 你不要現在為了要上任都說做得到然後只想在現在匆匆容容的要上任但如果你真的做不到本期要提醒你你可能會連滾帶爬的離開好不好謝謝好 謝謝汪美玲委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5590.717,"end":5613.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC主委被提名人請被提名人劉仙主委委員早安主委早主委今天早上我想可能是主委一個人生第一次見面吧"},{"start":5615.104,"end":5641.834,"text":"被很多的我們的立委同仁來提問那我剛有特別看了一下我所問的內容以及主委的答覆主委大概一直過去專就是專長在網路這一塊但主委知道我們現在NTT其實有一個重要業務就是網路傳播的治理那台灣現在很多的網路上的奇奇怪怪的行為犯罪的行為詐騙等等"},{"start":5645.46,"end":5672.746,"text":"但是最重要的問題我認為是在於我們現在並沒有一個法律可以來管理網路上相關的一些就是說犯罪也好我們對網路上的管理目前幾乎是沒有法律所以NCC現在就如果你要對網路上能夠有一點他律那就等於必須要完成相關法案的立法了"},{"start":5674.079,"end":5699.982,"text":"否則 目前我們網路上都只能靠自律我舉個例子 10月9號 北車發生的那個有一個性侵的案件 你知道吧那這個案件 結果這個電視台 踢台它把這個畫面 它是監視器它就把北車 不知道怎麼樣取得北車的畫面它直接就把它在它的新聞節目裡面播出"},{"start":5700.953,"end":5726.748,"text":"那第一台播出的時候他雖然有用馬賽克但是你注意看這個還是可以看出他做出一些犯罪的行為和動作那這個拍攝的畫面以及這樣新聞播出來以後其中有一個部長有回應了衛務部長有回應了衛務部長說你這個拍攝這樣的一個性影像雖然他是翻拍的基本上已經處罰了"},{"start":5728.308,"end":5749.283,"text":"而更不用說你上架為了傳播影像而且在新聞報導內容也不應該揭露被害人的相關個資主委知道這個事情嗎是 知道那這個基本上也是NCC管的因為我們第一個在這個相關裡面有電視節目分級處理辦法我們還有衛星廣播電視法"},{"start":5755.376,"end":5778.141,"text":"我們播出人的內容基本上必須受到第27條第三項你不可以有違反下列幾個事項例如違反法律強制或法律禁止剛剛這個影片第一個他不可以去未經當事人的同意他不可以直接去取得這樣的影片性侵犯防治法裡面就有規定到"},{"start":5780.782,"end":5808.84,"text":"你不可以翻拍更是不可以有刑法就有規定刑法規定的是你不得無故於照相錄影我記錄攝錄其他的現影像刑法本來就有規定性侵害防治法更規定你不可以隨便的揭露再來再回到你管的電子節目分解處理辦法所以基本上有衛廣網裡面還有電子節目分解處理辦法所以其實NCC管的是非常廣泛的"},{"start":5812.838,"end":5825.692,"text":"相關的事情這個其實就是一個案例以後發生這個事情的時候那就是有NCC就必須要扮演一定的角色主委你對這個事情有什麼評論嗎"},{"start":5826.636,"end":5845.561,"text":"好 謝謝林委員那這個案件確實當時在社會上引起雷震騷動那我也注意到這個新聞那如果以現在目前NCC所掌管到的廣播電視傳播法以及它的分級處理辦法當中確實在隱私這個部分呢它在這個報導上面確實是非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":5846.681,"end":5862.64,"text":"那我們也知道隱私和社會公共利益之間它的這個平衡點這也是目前NC將來有機會的話應該是要詳細的把這部分的工作把它做好 謝謝其實很多立委會對你有一些就是說非常嚴厲的一個質詢"},{"start":5864.713,"end":5892.726,"text":"也在於NCC它其實掌有非常大的一些相關的權力例如NCC的內部就有一個廣電媒體自播涉及性別相關的那種制導原則這是你頒布給所有媒體的一個原則你看 你NCC就可以要求媒體做到這些事情所以NCC權力其實是很大的就是說你不可以播放哪些東西像我剛提的北車這個事情這個媒體實在很過分"},{"start":5893.826,"end":5913.985,"text":"因為你本來就不得不得洩露比如說性騷擾 性圈蓋 受害者的身分和資訊如果他違反這些事情比如說不可以畫面語音或文字凸顯另一個性特徵等等那這些都可以影響到相關的媒體的未來的一個評鑑的一個參考"},{"start":5916.055,"end":5935.971,"text":"所以我是要提醒主委喔未來在如果你在執行你的業務上那NCC基本上它大概主要業務有相關的衛廣啦電信啦你這廣的其實非常繁雜啦無線通訊等等那其中你現在"},{"start":5937.867,"end":5959.054,"text":"NCC要比較受到批判的應該是在網路這一塊尤其針對網路犯罪那其實也是因為無法可管那這個部分我們過去的那個網路相關法案NCC你來以後可能一個重要任務就是趕快讓這個法案你把它整點完成"},{"start":5961.103,"end":5989.365,"text":"然後來送到立法院或者跟立委溝通如果沒有一個法案的話目前說我們看到的網路犯罪等等其實大家對你的批判對政府的批判然後相關的法案又沒有制定出來或者制定出來的時候這個在立法院又沒有辦法得到通過那整個即使國家就有網路這個他律的管理就全部卡在那個地方了"},{"start":5990.8,"end":6017.561,"text":"所以主委你為了這個我相信這一塊對你會是會是一個最大一個挑戰非常謝謝委員謝謝非常謝謝主席謝謝林俊憲委員發言完畢接下來要請林國成委員發言在林國成委員發言之前稍微做個簡單的說明我們在廖先祥委員發言完畢之後"},{"start":6019.182,"end":6035.432,"text":"會休息十分鐘請黨團助理告知相關委員現在請林國成委員發言謝謝好謝謝我們召委來請我們蔣提名人請蔣被提名人委員好"},{"start":6041.587,"end":6067.917,"text":"好 我看我們黃國昌總召叫你是蔣老師但是我在想一向寫者專家我當然都持有非常尊敬之態度但是我們蔣提名人我要請教你一下我們台灣民眾黨一向秉存三個言者請問"},{"start":6069.963,"end":6082.252,"text":"我們講提名人你知不知道哪三項我們在問政的風格不知道吧第一個就是理性再來務實再來科學"},{"start":6084.747,"end":6101.797,"text":"所以這三種當中我會採取第一個理性探討的態度來對我們講提名人針對未來NCC如何去推展或者你有什麼"},{"start":6103.636,"end":6115.165,"text":"胸懷大志如何去做改革這個是我啟喜的但是我還是要提醒我們蔣提名的到立法院來一定要誠實"},{"start":6117.678,"end":6144.797,"text":"誠實是最好的一個執政答詢的方式所以剛剛我還特別來聽為了這個院長或總統來召見你這個時間的問題我還是建議這個部分要把它理清楚我相信未來在同意前的部分會有所幫助這是我以重心長給蔣提名人的一個建議來"},{"start":6146.238,"end":6155.163,"text":"蔣提名人我們大家都知道啦你在學術研究當然有你的專長跟你的特色但是在這裡今天張秘書長也在這裡我覺得"},{"start":6159.502,"end":6183.714,"text":"你的專業很適合去數位部當部長所以不適合在NCC當主委這個我要特別提醒我們張秘書長要下情上打所以現在的亂象就是什麼專業錯置隔行如隔山請問"},{"start":6185.936,"end":6214.802,"text":"因為到現在為止很多委員執行你的專業問題我看你的大作你對於醫學AI以及所有的研究部分你的專長就是放在這裡就是數位這個部分但是跟媒體一點關係都沒有所以在這個部分蔣提名人給你一點時間你有什麼看法"},{"start":6216.218,"end":6240.528,"text":"非常謝謝林委員這麼關心我的工作還有過去的研究其實我過去如果用一個簡單的經驗來去敘述的話如果我有百分之三十的時間是做研究百分之三十的人做教學百分之三十的人做行政工作的話其實剛好研究的工作占百分之三十的時間過去在成功大學在成大醫院服務的時候我歷經過三任校長然後歷經過三任院長"},{"start":6243.789,"end":6263.215,"text":"他們當時在我卸任的時候他們對我的評價其實很簡單就是這個人他的行政的手腕其實非常的願意去做事情第二就是這個人是很公正的這樣子所以我想也許是這個原因所以才能夠被提名好 謝謝"},{"start":6264.674,"end":6291.395,"text":"其實我要你答覆這是大家的疑慮因為這個同意前當然就會牽涉到你過去的著作跟你未來如何去做這個要綜合起來是否同意這些東西都會影響每一個委員對於你的看法另外一個我比較冒昧的請教我們蔣提名人"},{"start":6292.156,"end":6306.373,"text":"你的研究計畫裡面完全跟NCC的執掌多少是沒有關係但是在這個部分你現在擁有閣科會給你的研究案喔"},{"start":6308.015,"end":6326.11,"text":"到最後可能要用到三大電信公司你在這個研究案研究到一半的時候請問你如果出任了這些NCC主委的時候你如何去迴避或如何去切斷研究這個請你回答"},{"start":6327.045,"end":6350.802,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問很慶幸的我現在目前所手上的執行的以及過去執行的研究計畫當中目前都沒有任何跟NCC現在的業務直接相關以及和電信產業有直接相關的 謝謝好 那另外一個我還是要再提醒一下當然這是給你做一個功課NCC它本來是一個監督"},{"start":6352.623,"end":6376.114,"text":"管理單位這不是研究單位囉所以在這個部分我比較納悶要聽聽你的意見也就是中天撤照的部分他一個是監督一個是管理但是撤照是一個事關重大言論自由的部分你對這件事情請你簡單回答你有什麼看法"},{"start":6377.639,"end":6392.347,"text":"好非常謝謝委員提出這個這麼關鍵的問題那我自己也必須要承認在接到這個任務之前我原來只是一個一般的民眾所以呢以我的看法跟想法在想這件事情的時候我當時"},{"start":6394.045,"end":6406.417,"text":"一接到這個工作之後我就很仔細的把所有的公開資訊當中有關於中天案的細節過程仔細的研究了而且看了所有的報告我有兩點的發現第一點就是說"},{"start":6409.758,"end":6436.802,"text":"我有注意到整个社会大众对于中天案引起的社会大众的普遍的这些不满意或者是有一些对于这个案件的一些资讯那我觉得这个案件如果以我在现在目前来看的话我会觉得它是当时是依法不予换照那当年这个法律当时定的目的应该是很清楚的"},{"start":6437.512,"end":6459.343,"text":"我想這樣啦因為我時間也有限啦特別我要提醒你監督跟管理跟撤照這是兩三者之間當然有關係但是你要知道社會大眾對於這些是非常重視的所以希望有機會你如果當了主委以後"},{"start":6460.063,"end":6489.197,"text":"不要前車之間再換這個要特別注意最後一個我再請教你現在NCC已經在這快一年的情況之下他的檢舉案件喔社會亂象以及檢舉案件將近600件請問我們主委提名人你如果通過了任命以後你有什麼做法簡單回答好"},{"start":6490.816,"end":6518.398,"text":"我的做法就是會讓NC的做回符合社會的期待然後積極把它完成好 那個蔣提名我還是希望本黨一向是理性 務實 科學根據科學 根據非常務實的東西我們會做最後的一個評判我也希望在這裡祝福你有一個好的投票的結果但是希望站在這裡的時候守出"},{"start":6520.124,"end":6547.603,"text":"講出的任何一個承諾我希望有朝一日你要去實踐好不好好謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請羅廷維委員發言好謝謝主席有請講被提名人請被提名人陳被提名人要11點嘛對不對"},{"start":6549.274,"end":6576.702,"text":"就整個早上按照順序講被提名人大家發言完畢之後再看是要直接接上去還是到下午好 謝謝主席好 委員長好 今天聯席會審查行政院送來的NCC相關的被提名人那首先要恭喜兩位被提名人那剛剛也在台底下我也有聽那我想NCC身為我國憲政體系中具有獨立"},{"start":6577.802,"end":6596.871,"text":"非常重要的一個機關 肩負非常重要的一個任務我想其職權範圍從通訊傳播 設備 系統 審驗到整個廣播的電視頻道的一個上下架都與全民的資訊接收權是有產業的息息相關"},{"start":6598.012,"end":6623.613,"text":"那隨著科技跟媒體的快速變遷NCC的角色更為重要我想在現在又面對著數位轉型AI內容的一個深層網路中立性的一個維護以及防制假訊息跟網路安全的一個威脅來做一個挑戰社會對NCC的一個專業公正效率是寄予眾望那也要跟獎盃提名人特別分享"},{"start":6624.494,"end":6653.145,"text":"我今天早上才跟青年国教行动联盟一起召开一个记者会那我们在讨论的是媒体试读媒体试读我们可以看到不管是社群平台或者是网路的相关的一些新闻资讯很多的一些甚至是报道未经查证甚至是加工那有施工证甚至有媒体直接运用AI生成的影片"},{"start":6654.145,"end":6675.644,"text":"照片來做成新聞後續還補充說這個相關的資訊我已經查證我想這些都對於現階段我們看到的一些媒體生成的內容還有所謂的媒體試讀以及網路假訊息這些都是我們特別重視的我也在那場記者會說到"},{"start":6677.765,"end":6697.361,"text":"增加媒体试读全民来做一个认同重视这不仅仅是让青年发展有逻辑思维判读更多元的一个观点那更希望能够将假讯息诈骗讯息能够隔绝跟我们的人民"},{"start":6698.081,"end":6723.471,"text":"那我们更希望在这样子一个NCC的独立性透明度有极高的一个期待也希望不要有政治的干扰还有甚至是行政的一个依附如何让决策的过程能够更开放能够更自我的检验也希望这是被提名人应该要努力的一个方向所以首先我想先请问一下蒋先生被提名人"},{"start":6724.591,"end":6734.037,"text":"社會上現在對於NCC的信任度是不夠的可以說是非常不夠所以NCC也被戲稱是張CC你認為關鍵的問題在哪裡"},{"start":6740.15,"end":6766.718,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那任何的一個機構當他的信任被破壞的話其實往往需要多年才能夠修補那過去呢NCC由於有好幾宗的訴訟案件以及呢在過去的一些裁處案件上當中呢造成了一些社會的跟社會的期待是不相符的那我很期待我希望我自己能夠以一個將來一個開明務實的主委來自居"},{"start":6767.398,"end":6785.069,"text":"所以很希望將來呢能夠針對這些過去NCC的這些過往的案件當中呢能夠逐一的去檢視那能夠做一個符合社會期待這樣的一個公務機關 謝謝那你能不能另外說明一下你覺得NCC啊怎麼看待它的獨立性"},{"start":6786.352,"end":6808.807,"text":"是我個人還是說這個NCC你個人怎麼看待好的NCC是一個依法行政的一個獨立機關那換句話說它必須要維持形象上的中立它才能夠執行針對廣播電信傳播通訊等等這些業務上面能夠讓普遍的人民因為這些新聞資訊的訊息而能夠培養他們的對這個社會的認識"},{"start":6810.968,"end":6837.265,"text":"那當然NCC的工作除了說去監管之外呢NCC需要花很多的時間去體察民意去了解到現在目前的社會的普遍的社會期待是什麼那讓這個社會的期待和NCC的作為的最接近這應該是我將來做的應該這樣子我更直接的問你所以你可以承諾你會以民意為優先並且不會有任何政治的干擾"},{"start":6838.146,"end":6860.925,"text":"不會接受任何政治的牽涉當然我剛就已經在前面的委員就跟他們說過了各位都是為民喉舌所以每位立法委員其實對於民意的熟悉都很清楚這對我來說你們都是我的老師所以我很希望能夠從你們當中看到這個民意的期待然後我也期待能夠做得更好謝謝"},{"start":6862.426,"end":6888.601,"text":"那你的學術背景主要是集中在人工智慧那資訊安全跟醫療數據的一個分析這些領域確實跟資訊通訊的技術是有關的但是我認為NCC涉及的不只是技術也包括媒體的內容公平競爭言論自由等價值議題想請問你如何看待技術治理與言論自由兩者之間的界限好非常謝謝委員提這個這麼重要的問題"},{"start":6889.693,"end":6903.808,"text":"沒有錯NCC基本上依法是做監管但是它不去做內容的實質審查反而是去鼓勵讓我們的媒體去做自行的自律那換句話說呢"},{"start":6905.37,"end":6929.416,"text":"技術剛剛委員提到的技術部分是很好的將來的AI的技術或者是將來的生成式AI的技術將來可能也許是能夠被媒體所用例如我們都知道所有的技術是中性的它不具有任何政治色彩用得好它能夠讓這樣子一個產業變得好那用得壞就可能就能夠對這個產業產生破壞"},{"start":6931.636,"end":6946.421,"text":"所以我們希望將來能夠有這個NCC能夠有這個角色能夠當將來的一個新世代的NCC同時也對科技的擁抱希望能夠科技把這些內容產業做得更好"},{"start":6946.801,"end":6963.264,"text":"另外我想問你你作為如果未來擔任這個機關最重要的一個單位我們在審查任何的媒體相關的生成內容的時候所發現到有一些問題你看我剛剛有說的AI生成內容"},{"start":6963.965,"end":6990.754,"text":"AI生成影片被誤用甚至它就是要使用那你覺得NCC未來一定會面對AI生成內容的時候比如說AI的主播這樣子新型態你是否支持NCC主動研議AI內容透明的標示制度比如讓民眾知道這段新聞影片畫面照片是人寫的還是AI生成的你支持嗎"},{"start":6991.643,"end":7014.826,"text":"謝謝委員的提問確實目前生成式AI已經造成了社會大眾的困擾它雖然說提供了方便性但一般民眾對於它的識別的識度如果不足的話很容易去誤導民眾所以將來也許在媒體產業上面除了自律之外除了事實查證之外我也很同意委員這次我提到了"},{"start":7015.246,"end":7033.016,"text":"對於深層次內容應該主動明確的標示能夠讓所有的閱聽人有很好的認識 謝謝 好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷維委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言廖委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們講被提名人 請被提名人"},{"start":7051.77,"end":7070.523,"text":"委員好您好這個其實我對您其實並沒有太多的認識那因為您要行使這個NCC獨立機關的職權那我可能其實我包括不知道其他三位可能副主委跟其他被提名人有沒有聽到我其實都可以預告等一下問的問題我可能針對三位都是一樣的問題我不會針對你們個人可能過去的一些行為舉止或者是學術注重提出特別的一個提問"},{"start":7077.708,"end":7097.404,"text":"那NCE這幾年被社會廣泛討論最主要的原因就是針對這個新聞媒體的監管的獨立性被認為被執政黨高度的影響那因此我會針對新聞媒體的監管提出一些問題那當然新聞媒體在西方叫第四權當然我們現在五權但其實國內也一樣習慣稱之為第四權那您對於第四權的理解"},{"start":7098.581,"end":7115.943,"text":"好的 剛才非常謝謝委員的提問我剛才在自我介紹有提到我很慶幸的在美國那時候其實是三十年前就見識到第四權其實能夠透過媒體能夠透過公共政策的辯論其實能夠讓社會上形塑成社會的價值這是我見識到而且非常重要的一個事情 謝謝"},{"start":7116.664,"end":7134.659,"text":"那您對於第四權的期待就是社會它賦予給它一個第四權這樣的一個的稱號那總是會對它有一些期待或者說你認為它應該在這個社會上面它應該有的義務是什麼所有的媒體其實呢最主要的就是公共利益也就是它對於"},{"start":7136.089,"end":7161.759,"text":"民眾的知情權的保障這個是最重要的也就是他能夠去揭露政府機關不該做的事情他能夠把一般人所願意不喜歡聽的言論他都能夠透過公平透過公開的方式呢去在特定的這個媒體上面去報導那這樣子呢就能夠促進公共利益甚至可以有讓一般的民眾去理解到更多的這些知情的意義"},{"start":7162.359,"end":7172.179,"text":"其實人啊其實每一個人一定都有他自己本身的一個立場或者是意識形態我覺得這是非常正常的那只是說有時候我們在行使一些職權的時候或者是我們在某一個"},{"start":7173.257,"end":7194.264,"text":"在我們的位置的時候我們可能要盡量的去排除我們的立場然後去盡量做到客觀或者是符合社會期待的一個職權的一個形式我相信媒體也是一樣的那其實我們都知道台灣的媒體或者是全世界的媒體其實現在光譜每一個媒體會被光譜的情況是越來越嚴重每個媒體其實本身也都有他自己的立場"},{"start":7195.945,"end":7224.408,"text":"我想不可能有一百分的媒體那為了確認這個您是否注意被獨立性不會帶著政治的任務行使職權或者是被媒體集團來操弄我相針對不同的政治光譜的各大媒體新聞媒體請您提出批判我想這個各類的媒體不只偏藍偏綠而是所有的媒體我都會可能請你簡單的論述一下您可能對於這個家媒體你對他的認識你提出你的一些批判可以嗎"},{"start":7226.072,"end":7252.147,"text":"我想我不做個案分析但是我做一般性的分析所以確實以現在回答委員的問題以現在目前國內這麼多樣性的媒體的生態當中確實有些媒體它的背後的老闆集團所以因此它會有特定的色彩它在一個民主國家的常態裡面這是應該被尊重同時被保護的這樣的一個現象所以我個人不認為說不同的政治光譜"},{"start":7253.147,"end":7268.731,"text":"導致了這些不同的媒體就應該被管理或被管制我反而認為應該要讓媒體能夠正向的看待當它能夠發聲能夠有更多元化的聲音能夠讓我們的民眾去了解到這個社會的真實的反應的話這是"},{"start":7270.672,"end":7294.127,"text":"所以主委您認為這個不同的一個立場或者是不同政治光譜的一個媒體集團它是非常的正常那您認為說不同的光譜的媒體集團回到剛剛前面的第一個問題第二個問題就是您對於第四權的理解以及社會大眾對於第四權的一個期待那它要怎麼樣子的在不同的政治光譜當中去符合它第四權一個社會對它的一個期待"},{"start":7295.908,"end":7314.114,"text":"好 非常謝謝憲法賦予我們的媒體有一個言論自由所以因此所有的人民還有我們的民眾都知道在這個言論自由的保護下面媒體它可以自由發聲它可以揭露它想要表達的事實所以在這樣子的一個"},{"start":7315.074,"end":7334.233,"text":"一个媒体的生态当中接下来媒体要做的事就是他们的自律工作了也就是他为何要报道这件事情他为什么要报道这件事情他为了得普利兹奖吗还是他为了要得金马奖或者金钟奖不是的所以应该媒体应该要把他报道这件事情他有他的意志"},{"start":7334.915,"end":7353.836,"text":"那在現在社會當中特別是民主的台灣的民主的價值的普世價值的現象當中呢這樣的聲音都應該被尊重了不管它來聲音有多小多大都應該被尊重的那也就是說新聞的自由啦新聞的自由跟我們NCC監管新聞秩序它的一個界線"},{"start":7355.39,"end":7375.129,"text":"您認為這個應該會有一個很明確的界線應該要在哪一邊謝謝謝謝委員這樣的提問他也讓我有這個機會來說明媒體的自律以及呢和NCC的應該監管的那樣的權利中間的平衡點是什麼呢中間的平衡點其實就是社會大眾的公共利益"},{"start":7375.709,"end":7394.012,"text":"也就是他今天報導這件事情如果能夠促進社會的公共利益的話他就值得被報導那NCC也沒有理由要去做他任何的監管所以是否符合公眾利益應該還蠻主觀的吧是的也就是您認為NCC應該也不會太去判斷什麼東西是符合公共利益你也很難判斷是不是"},{"start":7394.432,"end":7422.768,"text":"是確實也就是說以NCC的現況上面呢我們不去做內容的實質審查那然而呢一般的民眾對於輿論的議題呢應該是我們最那其實那我可以了解您的立場非常清楚就是原則上是高度自由的一個新聞媒體我們盡量不去做干涉那因此其實前面有人提到了那因此回到我會再有兩個小問題啦您簡單的說有或沒有就好了"},{"start":7423.268,"end":7452.318,"text":"那您認為中天被關台是否有政治力的干預有或沒有呃我覺得我很難回答這個問只有用yes和no來回答所以你也不確定有或沒有對我確定你沒有辦法確定中天關台有沒有政治力的缺對因為所有的公開資訊看起來目前已經進到司法程序了那所以能夠尊重司法的判決好沒關係那第二個就是靜電室的設立您認為是否政治力的干預"},{"start":7453.148,"end":7482.792,"text":"好 一樣的道理靜電室的設立的過程當中這個可能就牽扯到NCC的職權了是 它雖然有完整的中間的過程當中有不斷的爭議那我個人認為現在最適合做的方式就是去做持續的監管也就是持續的觀察這個電視台的表現如果從這電視台現在目前播放出來的新聞如果都觸犯到法律的話那NCC確實應該要去做監管的動作 謝謝好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7484.277,"end":7487.669,"text":"謝謝 好 謝謝廖千祥委員方案完畢 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8204.522,"end":8230.111,"text":"好 我們繼續開會另外一位被提名人陳明修先生也已經到場陳明修先生是被提名人他是國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為副主任委員之被提名人以上先做報告現在請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":8240.548,"end":8260.288,"text":"主席好 請召貝提名人請貝提名人委員好貝提名人你好我想先確認一下因為您剛剛是說您是5月5號被諮詢對不對"},{"start":8262.791,"end":8286.327,"text":"是我剛才也利用了一個空檔把我那個所有的事情都卡出來了所以我把我的時間呢完全做一個正確的一個回應一個是謝謝您的提問一個是4月21號的中午另外一次呢是5月5號的下午4月21號就被問了然後5月5號下午所以4月21號你那時候沒有同意5月5號再一次跟您確認是這個意思嗎那5月5號就答應了"},{"start":8287.808,"end":8309.165,"text":"5月5號那時候我就跟 跟院長答應了好 就答應了那 因為行政院是在7月31號才把說四位名單送過來嘛5月5號到7月31號有兩個多月啦我是不知道這兩個多月是發生什麼事情可能那時候大概大罷免吧所以行政院想說看看等到大罷免結果民進黨會不會掌握國會多數再送啦但這就凸顯一個問題啦"},{"start":8310.586,"end":8334.79,"text":"就是好像行政院也不認為NCC是一個重要的機關我們在去年的時候那時候曾經有問過翁伯忠之前的代理主委他說NCC如果沒有順利組成委員會的話最嚴重的問題就是iPhone不法上市您知道這事嗎同樣的問題想跟您請教一下如果沒有NCC的話最嚴重的事情是什麼"},{"start":8336.911,"end":8353.541,"text":"NCC根據它的組織法它是負責全國的通訊跟傳播媒體的監管所以如果當沒有這樣的一個機構的話勢必我們的媒體或者是我們的所有的通訊傳播應該是會有混亂的情形會混亂所以你覺得現在蠻混亂"},{"start":8355.756,"end":8368.107,"text":"現在目前他仍然有一個質疑委員會仍然在運行當中所以也很慶幸的這段時間所以沒有委員也無所謂反正有委員會可以運行所以你的態度是什麼"},{"start":8369.176,"end":8385.771,"text":"我的態度是覺得NCC是一個國家重要的機關不是 所以你們所以這當然跟你無關啦這就突 從跟你的詢答就凸顯一個問題嘛這行政院講話就矛盾嘛跟NCC講話也都矛盾嘛一方面告訴大家講說什麼iPhone無法上市後來現在不是iPhone18也要上市"},{"start":8386.391,"end":8406.653,"text":"NCT後來又自己解釋說是因為後來有修改法規內部的法規本來就是可以修改法規所以這不是一個很困難的事然後您是4月多就被諮詢5月5號就同意了但行政院可以壓到7月底才送把名單送過來現在才開始審代表說行政院也不認為說NCT是一個重要的機關所以才會拖這麼久"},{"start":8407.754,"end":8420.011,"text":"然後您剛剛又講說其實這段時間媒體也有一個運行機制因為有諮詢委員會所以感覺上好像NCC這個委員會是可有可無啦我知道到目前為止感覺是可有可無"},{"start":8421.93,"end":8442.318,"text":"之前NCC做了一件讓大家覺得很不可思議的事情我也想問一下您的態度就是針對中天電視台中天電視台現在已經跟NCC有關係因為NCC把它關台了關台以後關台的理由是因為它被裁罰很多可是被裁罰的案件一一被打臉我們來看一下"},{"start":8443.398,"end":8460.437,"text":"這是二十六連敗最近的一次是有三個案件就是藍色標出來的包括就是討論農漁產的滯銷卡救命前養蚊滅寒還有一個什麼質疑蔡英文救硬月登革樂年遇八百萬這三個案子當時被NCC認為任由來賓辱罵官員"},{"start":8464.381,"end":8485.071,"text":"而且呢 沒有查證 所以就罰了就是你可以看 這個中天呢一審慎 二審慎 中審慎換言之呢 法院打臉的NCC當時的濫罰那 但問題是 NCC當時濫罰然後就用這個理由呢 把中天關台所以現在 我們現在電視台就少一台嘛 中天嘛"},{"start":8485.931,"end":8510.257,"text":"原因是因為中天批評政府我問一下主委其中有一個超離譜的有一個名嘴謝寒冰他在其中一個案子裡面的政論節目他說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委請問一下主委這個是請問一下謝寒冰他說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委這是評論"},{"start":8512.046,"end":8538.171,"text":"還是亂罵還是沒有客觀沒有查證應該是哪一個好的其實呢媒體在報導的時候他有他認定的自行權所以呢如果根據剛剛那個說法的話呢應該是說這些我們聽起來不舒服的不好聽的聲音其實也害他的言論自由所以要關台啊所以要裁罰啊以前NCC這樣就裁罰啦"},{"start":8539.724,"end":8552.116,"text":"就裁罰啦那如果你當了主委之後你可以認同過去NCC這樣的做法嗎這裡的案件如果每一個案件經過裁罰的過程當中它是都是經過合議制來討論的"},{"start":8555.375,"end":8577.236,"text":"何一致那你也是其中一員嘛我們現在是在問你的態度嘛你覺得一個名嘴批評說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的官員然後NCT就說你沒有做好查證工作然後說中天任由來賓辱罵政府就裁罰耶如果您是主委的話您認同這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":8578.217,"end":8597.908,"text":"好 剛剛前面幾位委員也質詢過相似的問題那我把我的想法跟大家說一下確實中天案在法律上面已經造成了社會大眾對他的NC的程序正義造成一些比例原則的質疑這是現況那我們言論自由保護的尺度就是剛 如同我剛剛的看法"},{"start":8598.388,"end":8613.058,"text":"是應該只要他敘述的出來沒有歷史性的危險沒關係 背題裡面所以你是不認同這樣的看法那我接下來繼續問因為NCC為了要保自己的面子就一直在打官司打官司花的都是人民的納稅錢訴訟費訴訟費非常高只要光是去年訴訟費就685萬"},{"start":8620.273,"end":8645.425,"text":"如果您當了主委之後您還會堅持去打這種官司嗎一直無止盡的花人民的納稅錢然後去打官司打到最後一直連敗嗎好 我雖然對不做假設性的問題做回答不過可以看得出來當他這些的訴訟費用是真的確實浪費人民的納稅錢的話他是應該被考慮不要去再進行不要再進行 不要再訴訟是不是所以說有機會的話我會請法治處呢"},{"start":8646.605,"end":8667.679,"text":"NCC法治署重新去研擬這些應該應對的方案謝謝那請問一下那如果因為當時NCC把中天關掉的理由其中之一是說中天違規非常多那現在顯然是NCC當時的濫罰人家已經幫平反所以他並沒有違規那麼多那如果中天現在就會打那個"},{"start":8669.02,"end":8680.152,"text":"關台無效之訴那如果到時候法院確定撤銷NCC的原處分發回NCC重新裁決的時候那個NCC被提名的態度是什麼"},{"start":8680.885,"end":8698.786,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問非常清楚就是依據司法的判決來做最後的詳細的細節的處置沒有依據司法判決是說撤銷原處分但是會叫你另為裁判那您的判決您的決定是什麼就是根據司法的判決來去做處置就是給他讓他照計序嗎"},{"start":8699.446,"end":8724.44,"text":"我們現在還不知道司法判決是什麼我的意思就是說如果說把你撤銷的話然後認為說NCC當時都濫訴嘛所以你關台的理由沒有了嘛又發給你們你們會讓他復台嗎還是根據司法的判決他最後的這個解讀謝謝葉元之委員發言完畢現在請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":8736.679,"end":8746.529,"text":"謝謝主席有請背題名人背題名人我還是建議背題名人還是要回到座位這樣是非常"},{"start":8749.408,"end":8772.148,"text":"好繼續好先回答一下剛剛這個葉元之委員他所說的這個NCC裁罰中天那其中26件當中有16件是裁處無誤的並不是像他所說26件全輸啦那另外呢還有三件正在訴訟當中"},{"start":8773.229,"end":8790.175,"text":"那有七件敗訴但是還可以再提上訴先更正一下剛剛葉雲芝委員她所說的她這個部分應該還是沒有查清楚不能在這邊直接這麼論定好 那我想請教一下就是NCC其實應該是獨立的一個機構"},{"start":8792.156,"end":8818.44,"text":"那當然最近呢其實很多人就會開始擔心是不是有政策偏頗或者是從這個不管是從媒體的執照審查或者是節目的內容到這個電信相關的一些政策那大家擔心這NCC的這個政策的透明度是不是不足那NCC之後是不是能夠維持繼續維持超然跟公正來守護傳播自由跟促進多元這樣子的一個立法初衷啦"},{"start":8819.2,"end":8842.245,"text":"但是我們知道隨著NCC部分的委員他們任期屆滿沒有辦法召開正式的一個委員會高達了104項涉及全民利益的一些關鍵的業務現在目前是全部停擺了在這裡我想請教一下就是如果將來您擔任主委你怎麼樣來確保我剛剛所說的NCC在決策當中能夠維持獨立的運作"},{"start":8842.705,"end":8857.49,"text":"那這是很重要的一部分那再來第二就是在重大決策如果涉及的內容跟媒體的一個管制怎麼樣來建立更透明的一個決策的一個程序那是不是會支持這個會議的記錄跟投票的一個公開的這個結果"},{"start":8859.19,"end":8881.233,"text":"那再來就是現今的NCC管轄的這個範圍跟這個平台的責任的界線稍微比較模糊那您認為這個NCC應該怎麼樣來保障言論自由防制假訊息來取得中間的一個平衡那第四個就是人才的挑戰還有現在是有線電視大家都說它是這個所謂的夕陽的產業將來應該要如何管制這四個問題請教一下"},{"start":8882.594,"end":8905.274,"text":"好的 謝謝委員 那我想逐一來回答剛才您提的問題第一問題有關於現在媒體在政策方面因為確實在目前為止現在NCC已經累積到了不少的案子是因為沒有辦法把所有的委員都滿足到最低的開會人數那目前呢 NCC的正常運作是依循它的執議會"},{"start":8906.235,"end":8928.808,"text":"去做程序了所以接下來呢其實有相當多的列管的案件像剛才委員說您提到的有上百件一百零四件對在這些案件當中都會由到時候組成了正式的委員會之後呢我們就開始逐一根據這些條文去逐一去審查然後去正式的去把這些案件呢去逐一的去讓它解除列管是"},{"start":8929.528,"end":8959.148,"text":"那大家最擔心的就是我們怎麼樣維持這個政策的公平公正是那剛剛您提到的政策的公平性呢其實過往以來NCC一直是一個合意制那合意制呢也就是依法所有的這些委員呢獨立行使執行員當對所有的意見呢有不同意的時候那或者是就寫不同意意見表達書那這樣的方式呢可以才可以讓將來所有的公務機關能夠去追尋因尋到當時的決策是不是有一些瑕疵"},{"start":8959.688,"end":8974.389,"text":"所以這個是我個人會繼續支持這樣的一個做法讓政策的公平性那假訊息的部分我們怎麼樣來解決這個部分確實委員提到一個非常重要的問題所有的這些假訊息現在是國民目前最痛苦的一個指標"},{"start":8975.21,"end":8993.584,"text":"那NCC能夠在這個國家的打炸隊的當中我們主要負責的是去堵炸所以會和所有的現在我們管的電訊公司會進行這些所有的這些訊息的防治所以目前已經有每個月數千萬的簡訊已經"},{"start":8996.486,"end":9014.385,"text":"減少到大概降低到1%不到1%的這個數但是還需要再更加的加油因為其實我們要培養這個媒體仕途的一個能力那另外就是產業的人才的一個培育這個也很重要那因為今天最後時間的一個關係我相信現在大家應該都會聚焦在所謂的這個詐騙的問題"},{"start":9016.087,"end":9033.425,"text":"那 甚至在這個8月喔 其實有人就直接接到來自NCC的 自稱來自NCC的一個來電啦那透過呢 這個假傳的這個律師跟警察結果後來這個被害者呢就是接到這個電話之後 他其實被詐騙了大概將近百來萬次多"},{"start":9033.985,"end":9060.852,"text":"那我想現在因為這個詐騙非常猖獗這不是只有台灣的問題再次強調其實日本也是全世界都是詐騙的問題其實真的無所不在那我想我們當然也針對這個部分我們也成立了所謂的這個防治的一個機制這個KYC那我們怎麼樣來看待就是接著下來NCC如果跟我們這個KYC的就是跟電信管理制度的合作"},{"start":9061.252,"end":9076.155,"text":"我們要怎麼樣讓這個制度更加的完善才能夠防堵這些所謂的詐騙的行為真的變得越來越猖獗如果我是一個被詐騙的人我心裡只想三件事情第一能夠把我的錢追回來第二呢"},{"start":9076.716,"end":9104.743,"text":"能夠讓壞人被抓起來第三呢能夠讓自己重新站起來這個社會所以我們的民眾被害人他就這麼一個簡單的期待所以呢那政府呢一定要有強烈的決心讓民眾知道民眾受到假訊息傷害的時候他不是孤軍奮戰而是整個社會大家一起和國家來保護我們人民所以我會站在這樣的一個角度來思考將來NCC呢在這個國家的打炸隊當中能夠扮演更主動積極的角色"},{"start":9104.923,"end":9122.337,"text":"因為其實現在詐騙的手法延伸得非常的快這甚至已經超過這個NCC的一個傳統電信管轄的一個範圍了啦這個部分其實也建議這個NCC之後一定要補強那我給大家幾個建議就是我們要強化這個電信業者的教育訓練跟這個集合的一個機制跟頻率啦"},{"start":9122.757,"end":9142.209,"text":"那第二點就是我們成立跨部會的這個防詐整合的一個機制社福單位也要介入來處理這個所謂的弱勢族群他們被害的一些案件這個是非常非常重要就心理層面來講那另外的再來就是我們要建立平台端通報的一個封鎖甚至跟封鎖的一個機制來減少這個詐騙號碼的一個流通"},{"start":9145.791,"end":9165.927,"text":"那我想這個部分其實也是重重之重那當然因為今天時間的關係之後我們還有很多的時間希望可以再跟這個被提名的人來做更進一步的一個交流好 謝謝 以上謝謝委員好 謝謝主席謝謝郭育晴委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":9175.721,"end":9199.277,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請備提名人請備提名人委員好謝謝 我們講準主委好那個NCC之前有對境外假訊息這個干擾辦過公聽會"},{"start":9202.762,"end":9214.574,"text":"那對於傳統媒體 平面媒體我們都有管制的單位網路媒體呢 現在沒有那主委認為NCC可以怎麼管"},{"start":9216.24,"end":9239.843,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問確實現況上面對於傳統的電子媒體我們是有法可管的網際網路因為是新興科技同時也包括像ODT等等這些新的媒體也導致現況上面NCC目前是沒有辦法用法律去做監管的"},{"start":9240.524,"end":9261.704,"text":"所以在過去的幾年來就我個人所知道NCC內部曾經提案針對網際網路的監管有提出多次的這些政策的這種草擬那現在白皮書也出來了所以NCC應該是將來朝向能夠凝聚更多的民眾的共識之後"},{"start":9262.685,"end":9273.559,"text":"能夠去做朝立法的方式那也會將傳統的媒體和新興的媒體的監管的標準一致化所以將來NCC應該有機會可以來納管"},{"start":9279.406,"end":9305.114,"text":"將來其實之前講重點我想問重點是 應該是行政院當時是希望能夠把ODT去做納管那至於網際網路現在目前的主管機關現在確實還沒有一個對啦 所以我問你就是說將來是不是有機會就是它的主管機關就是我們NCC當作我們的主管機關那才有機會去控管是"},{"start":9305.854,"end":9330.433,"text":"所以NCC的態度是將來我們希望把網際網路媒體等等的就是在NCC修法然後把它納管這樣子OK嗎應該是這樣子 應該是勇敢的去接這個工作謝謝 謝謝你很勇敢因為你如果不勇敢 老是沒有人管啊你像那個館長什麼說什麼轉手總統這件事啊這個還可以讓它繼續擴散嗎啊這個應該趕快處理掉啊"},{"start":9335.004,"end":9355.223,"text":"現在書畫部當然他是屬於可以了解網路的狀況但是他沒有直接的管理這個權利總是我們媒體部分的主要的就是NCC在主責所以這個部分比如說像這個以後我們發現發現之後NCC就可以開始來查核"},{"start":9355.723,"end":9373.072,"text":"查核之後發現他真的是對國家援手或者是散播這些謠言會對人民社會有重大的傷害就馬上把它停掉先停了再說你說要等到所有的程序等到法律的程序通通處理完了最後才來停"},{"start":9373.985,"end":9387.436,"text":"那都不會付錢啦所以我是覺得NCC應該要勇敢的把這個擔下來你看我們的那個廣播電視法有線電視法 微線電視法等等的就是說那這個我們這個是要新訂一個法還是要修哪個法"},{"start":9388.888,"end":9413.244,"text":"那根據網際網路的管理白皮書上面呢當時是希望凝聚共識那凝聚共識的方向呢最早因為還沒有目前凝聚共識之前先用分散式的立法就根據不同的議題去立法那將來如果說有可能的話其實廣電三法會和網際網路的這樣子的法的管理的法制呢變成一致化這個就是網比如說我簡單的講就廣播電視及網際網路"},{"start":9420.25,"end":9427.038,"text":"的管理規範還是什麼法就是你們會把它連在一起思考嘛對不對是 應該是朝這個方向"},{"start":9428.049,"end":9452.528,"text":"好 所以這個公聽會希望說你們可以照這個做啦希望說將來我們一定要不要說沒有這個部分沒有法可管希望NCC勇敢的擔下來也謝謝主委這一部分可以願意來承擔那最後還有一個就是那個詐團冒名詐騙用NCC的名義你們用這個建議說希望設定拒絕危險事號碼這個是你認同嗎"},{"start":9458.799,"end":9474.53,"text":"確實過去一般用比較保守的方式呢其實是用一些就是用比較不出事的方式來去做作為啦那一般的民眾呢所謂的拒絕未顯示的方式拒絕未顯示號碼其實你們這個建議我是覺得這有的沒的啦"},{"start":9484.052,"end":9501.691,"text":"你不如說 比如說電信業者你去研究他這個隱藏號碼到底是可不可行你如果說 叫民眾自己去用你這個功能到底現在是有好還是有壞有需要保持這個功能嗎"},{"start":9502.977,"end":9521.74,"text":"對 所以這是確實NCC我是建議你們就有一點具體的做法就是NCC以前我的經驗說經常就是推 推 推推都不能解決問題所以剛剛你講的我們要納管網際網路要有承擔要勇敢 這個我給你肯定我們希望說你就可以說到做到"},{"start":9522.501,"end":9549.338,"text":"那像這一個建議坦白講我告訴你這建議根本就是不好的建議嘛你要嘛就是作為有什麼作為不管是隱身號碼的功能你去研究看怎麼樣去處理或者是那個Who's Call怎麼樣跟電信業者合作來幫忙就是65歲的老人等等的自責的考量就有一些具體的做法這樣子才有用希望說NCC將來能夠每一次的作為都是一個具體的建議"},{"start":9549.938,"end":9563.928,"text":"好這樣子我們才有機會得到確實的改善謝謝委員的期待好謝謝謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席請"},{"start":9577.405,"end":9581.608,"text":"這個被提名人 蔣榮軒先生請被提名人委員好謝謝今天是交通委員會來審查這個NCC的這個被提名人那你未來是擔任主委的人選"},{"start":9602.657,"end":9627.967,"text":"那我想主委跟其他委員最大的不同是主委一定程度帶領著NCC這個國家重要的一個單位到底要走的方向是什麼所以今天本席就一個比較大的方向來救救被提名人這個被提名人應該知道就是說這個NCC過去在台灣的"},{"start":9629.205,"end":9654.566,"text":"這個媒體發展的角色裡面他扮演的其實是一個對媒體進行高度監理的這個角色所以換言之大概NCC出現的太陽或者那個樣貌都是準備要處罰人或者是要管理人大概那個角色是這樣那過去我們有他的背景所以本席沒有太覺得"},{"start":9655.208,"end":9678.204,"text":"有什麼太大問題當然過去技術面怎麼執法這些法規這另外一回事但是扮演這樣的一個形象跟角色本席沒有太大意見但是與時俱進時代已經一直在往前走所以怎麼樣從NCC怎麼樣從除了對監理這件事情"},{"start":9680.339,"end":9693.818,"text":"應該持續的關注跟重視之外對於整個台灣的這個媒體的產業怎麼讓它發展特別是現在大家都在講產業的創新主委你有什麼看法沒有"},{"start":9694.656,"end":9719.114,"text":"好 謝謝委員問了這麼好的一個問題其實我們的民眾對NCC的三大期待就是NCC能夠做一個很公平的執法者然後能夠去讓讀者能夠他的權益受到重要的守護還有最後一件事也就是剛剛您提到的就是能夠積極地為我們的媒體產業能夠去領航我個人是認為媒體本身就是應該"},{"start":9720.894,"end":9738.648,"text":"是一個產業它需要去能夠去維持下去所以媒體將來是不是能夠在一個促進健康而且多元的這樣子一個通訊傳播的環境下讓所有的媒體都能夠找到它自己的niche"},{"start":9739.178,"end":9767.394,"text":"他能夠利用新興科技他能夠去申請重要的這個獎項他能夠到國外走出海他能夠幫我們的護國神山去外面去報導讓全世界的人認識台灣的軟實力這都可以做的所以將來也希望他們能夠有在產業的創新能夠有新的想法 謝謝主委我想你剛剛提示的是大的方向也就是說你的想法裡面你的確把"},{"start":9768.622,"end":9795.138,"text":"發展當成一件事情就至少你的腦袋裡面有想過這件事情但是本席也可以在這裡就告訴你其實發展跟法規會完全的緊密綁在一起如果現在你把所有媒體NCC主管媒體的相關法規來看基本上我們都在處理 監理 限制 規定那本席舉一個例子就好了"},{"start":9795.882,"end":9824.818,"text":"譬如說我們現在大家知道這個跟過去不大一樣過去是有線電視獨霸的時代而且我們也都知道市場的現況是有線電視在每一個區域它都是壟斷型的存在我說過去啦但是我們也都從具體統計數字裡面看到有線電視的戶數正在逐年下跌那本席依照市場的現況我來分析這個下跌的趨勢恐怕還沒到盡頭"},{"start":9825.967,"end":9850.481,"text":"它會持續下跌 那為什麼會持續下跌因為很簡單 收視習慣的改變大家開始透過不同的載具 然後OTT的盛行所以大家已經不再去接受傳統像有線電視裡面幫我規定好時間 規定好頻譜要在什麼頻道 什麼時間 看什麼節目現在收視習慣已經完全改變了"},{"start":9851.081,"end":9877.308,"text":"甚至像我們這種我也不算是年輕人但我已經很久很久沒有打開有線電視雖然我也有裝但我已經很久沒有打開它了所以我要看體育頻道我就直接在譬如說我們棒球來講我就直接買CPBL TV我就直接看了我隨選然後我還可以回顧所以這個都是收視習慣所以你看有線電視的數量 戶數正在逐年下紅那過去"},{"start":9878.325,"end":9897.007,"text":"我們現在叫做差別管制什麼意思呢我們對OTT我們在境外對境外我們其實是毫無規定的幾乎讓大家自由任意而為之但我們對有線電視我們是高度的監理管制那我講過時代背景是因為當時他壟斷"},{"start":9899.526,"end":9928.975,"text":"幾乎你沒有其他的選擇所以當時我們一定要政府不高度管制不行從要多少錢我們也要審查從他的他裡面的製播裡面要多少百分比是要國產自製節目這個法規在交通委員會過去十年大家花很長的時間在限制這個媒體怪獸但是這個怪獸看起來已經從兇猛的這個恐龍已經快變成小白兔了主委"},{"start":9930.308,"end":9953.587,"text":"對於這個差別管制的這個狀況 你有沒有去想過大概戶數降到多少啊這個差別管制 您就會提出對他的檢討你有沒有想過這個問題 或者到什麼樣的狀態你認為他已經不再是巨獸了你應該把這個差別管制啊 否則這個在經營上他一定先天不利嘛"},{"start":9956.072,"end":9978.302,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提問確實在目前NCC的很多的法規其實需要與時俱進有線電視由過去的壟斷而且過去握有主要的一個播放的權利到現在已經一般來講都已經進到網路了現況上面我們看到Cable的數量一直在減線潮"},{"start":9980.202,"end":9992.219,"text":"我個人也不樂觀他是不是就到這個地方已經到探底了一般來講我們台灣還是進入高齡化社會中其實還是有一些家中阿公阿嬤"},{"start":9994.626,"end":10023.866,"text":"對 沒有錯他就習慣在看那個老人家習慣那我剛剛給你提示了我的年紀也不是年輕人但連我都已經開始進入了OTT的時代所以表示什麼你剛剛講收視習慣的老人家他一定會隨著年齡他的逝去所以呢可能這個數字還會往下跌所以本席要問你的是你覺得大概到什麼時候我們NCC就可以開始檢討這個差別管制因為你的差別管制會加速了他的滅亡"},{"start":10025.047,"end":10036.626,"text":"如果你不想讓他完全Cable完全不存在你也覺得他是他是眾多消費選擇之一的話那可能你在這個管制上面的問題就要面對"},{"start":10037.426,"end":10061.691,"text":"是 沒有錯我雖然沒有一個數字能夠明確地回答委員但是我們可以看得到有線電視它在目前四維的情況之下它仍然有一個連接社群 社區它甚至於少量所謂的小眾的媒體的功能換句話說 將來比較嚴肅的看法 看待的話也許是該開始去監測跟檢討的時候可以到了"},{"start":10062.051,"end":10076.706,"text":"好 本席只是提醒你啦因為我覺得主管機關應該要有未雨綢繆因為有一天換他會變成弱勢就有一天啦我預測他有一天會變成這樣子所以除非你說讓Cable就在市場消失否則"},{"start":10078.501,"end":10095.711,"text":"這個產業的競爭它是相對因為當它變很小又被差別管制的時候這個其實在產業競爭的發展的公平性上就會面對挑戰所以主委這個可能要早早來思考這個問題謝謝委員指教好 謝謝蔡啟昌委員發言完畢現在請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":10118.181,"end":10123.745,"text":"謝謝主席有請NCC被提名人請被提名人對蔣榮軒主委"},{"start":10132.901,"end":10157.256,"text":"主委好 主委好我在之前我們有一個叫智慧國家方案這個方案是2021到2025也就是今年他特別提到這個目標是希望達到第一個國民基本寬頻上網權還有寬頻普及率要達到百分百"},{"start":10157.896,"end":10168.691,"text":"那GBPS的網路的覆蓋率呢要大幅提升那想要先請教您您覺得目前的達成率如何"},{"start":10170.267,"end":10198.301,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個提問當我被推薦為委員之後那時候北京人就開始很認真地去看目前我們國家的數位落差現在的情況不瞞您說確實台灣的偏鄉仍然存在著一些所謂的數位落差除了教育部有DOC中心然後還有一些偏鄉的政府有提供一些補助之外其實確定還是有一些鄉鎮"},{"start":10199.562,"end":10207.112,"text":"没有一家三大超商的那没有一家7-11的那些地方呢其实国民的网络覆盖率其实确实是低的"},{"start":10207.62,"end":10236.54,"text":"所以就是没有达成这个目标但至少要是个愿景那您接任之后你会设定什么样的目标谢谢委员的问题我刚才在最早稍早的时候在自我介绍时有提到说其实能够普及公平的一个网络环境然后能够让偏乡还有弱势的社群当中能够让它的宽平建设还有价格合理化"},{"start":10237.082,"end":10237.529,"text":"也就是让"},{"start":10239.722,"end":10267.096,"text":"網路的價格不會變成一個它無法支付的一個障礙這樣子的話呢就能夠縮小全民的數位落差我想這是一個做法 謝謝我希望未來你能夠設定一個目標那也希望有一個期程讓我們可以知道那我其實我的想法是這樣很謝謝主委您被提名的人好像也很清楚我是來自邊鄉我的看法是這樣就是有電的地方"},{"start":10267.896,"end":10296.549,"text":"我們也希望水自來水可以到那通訊也可以到網路都可以到這是我們的理想的狀況因為其實台灣並不大雖然多山但是我想很多都是可以克服的但是您剛剛有提到就是經濟規模一個經濟的誘因因素就是變成我們偏鄉要建置寬頻或者接取這些寬頻的這個基礎建設它很大的一個障礙"},{"start":10297.629,"end":10318.93,"text":"那我舉個例子來講其實兩三年前我也有承諾其實有些地方並不偏僻就是公路可以到達像是高雄市有一個桃園區它最後的那幾個地方那幾個里其實在兩三年前其實連有線電視都到達不了"},{"start":10321.753,"end":10345.091,"text":"所以後來呢我們NCC有承諾說會動用一個叫做有限的一個基金那希望說可以去幫他接過去可是時至今日其實還是很多部落沒有那最主要的原因我們看這個地圖其實黃色的線是主要道路"},{"start":10346.178,"end":10365.138,"text":"那從衛星地圖上可以看到房子很多的地方然後又鄰近主要道路是有的可是呢它只要沒有鄰近道路他們就接不到有線電視所以這個部分主委您怎麼看好 謝謝您提到這樣的一個想法"},{"start":10366.072,"end":10393.995,"text":"刚才除了说您提到说过去NCC是利用基金去协助之外呢我个人有一个今天呢很大胆的想法就是我认为应该要定定一个企业的社会责任的指标我们都听过CSR我们也知道大公司它会希望能够对社会有一些回馈那如果在这样子一个有奖励诱因的前提之下也许"},{"start":10395.049,"end":10417.471,"text":"有限電視公司或者CAP公司他會願意把企業的社會責任當作他的一個工作那謝謝主委我聽到這個很振奮希望未來這個部分你如何跟有限電視業者一起來促成這個社會責任好嗎那我希望只要有地方有居民提出這樣的需求我們NCC都可以成為一個平台來協助疏通可以嗎"},{"start":10418.672,"end":10445.605,"text":"那其實我也看到速發部他有一個去年113年的數位禁用調查報告那我們從這個當中其實可以很清楚的看到如果分山地原鄉平地的原鄉跟非住民原鄉鄉鎮他會因為過往的架設率會造成一些數位禁用的一個差距也就是說如果以我們看喔網路掛號或數位影音編輯"},{"start":10447.088,"end":10469.495,"text":"其實平地的原住民鄉他還高於非原住民鄉因為他很需要因為他遠他特別需要透過網路去做網路掛號預約門診他特別需要利用這些網路去做一些數位的一個工作所以看起來其實對偏鄉來講他是更需要"},{"start":10470.015,"end":10481.237,"text":"可是就是因為山地原住民鄉鎮他就是因為他的一些基礎工程造成了他沒有辦法使用所以這個部分我們也希望主委未來您會注意"},{"start":10483.305,"end":10504.155,"text":"網路的禁用權是公民的基本權利我希望就是山地原住民鄉鎮這些的基礎工程都能夠來處理那另外一個我就是關心災害發生的時候的通訊我們來看一下如果以今年的0728這個颱風常常都有而且未來會越來越頻繁因為氣候變遷的關係它就會斷路停電"},{"start":10507.637,"end":10520.541,"text":"通常啦 都是先路會斷掉然後呢 電就斷掉通訊就斷掉那有時候會很多天我也覺得不可思議以這個九月這個畫家煞為例這個畫家煞颱風"},{"start":10523.562,"end":10545.68,"text":"造成我們都在關注花蓮光復鄉馬太安 煙色湖的時候其實在另外一邊 海端鄉他們最後的那幾個部落像立道或者是霧路竟然三天之後他們斷訊的消息才傳送出來斷路的消息才傳送出來"},{"start":10546.434,"end":10558.482,"text":"那是因為什麼呢剛好有廠商困在裡面他有衛星電話所以我想請問一下主委你覺得這個衛星電話是不是應該每個原廂都要來配置啊"},{"start":10560.7,"end":10577.969,"text":"謝謝您的提問就是如同剛才前面所提到的災害發生的時候能夠確保通訊不中斷能夠讓我們的基地台恢復盡快的完成這應該是NCC該做的事情我希望主委未來也要注意所以這邊有一個就是13個縣市"},{"start":10580.15,"end":10608.544,"text":"議程災害孤島地區有186處所以我想說給主委一個功課這是內政部消防署盤點的我希望根據這186處至少他們有沒有衛星電話他的網路的部件率或者是有線 顧網這一些他到底有沒有可不可以去盤這個資料因為我覺得這個要先有這樣的一個盤點資料我們才知道未來要怎麼做對不對"},{"start":10610.582,"end":10617.33,"text":"謝謝那我希望這個部分能夠加強的來建制好謝謝主委謝謝主席阿維希望給我一個兩個月內一個報告可以嗎好謝謝謝謝吳立華委員發言完畢現在請陳樹葉委員發言"},{"start":10642.244,"end":10647.263,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請NCC主委貝提名人請貝提名人"},{"start":10657.295,"end":10680.087,"text":"主委早 那我看您的這個學經歷都非常的完整也非常的優秀那也看到您的專長是在這個人工智慧那本席也很好奇就是說因為在這個看您的這個學經歷跟專長跟NCC的這個傳播跟法律似乎沒有很直接的一個關聯"},{"start":10681.388,"end":10703.46,"text":"那當然提名你來當這個NCC主委的被提名人應該也是想必要借重您的專業跟這個專才所以在這邊本席先跟你討論就是就您人工智慧這個領域來跟你做討論那我們知道其實在上個禮拜那個國安局在"},{"start":10704.693,"end":10712.909,"text":"外交及國防委會裡面的業務報告就有再次的說明就是我們台灣遭受到中共組建的這個網路民兵與民間"},{"start":10714.987,"end":10734.042,"text":"環害車役攻擊每天高達280萬次這是一個非常嚴重的狀況我們也看到我們國內很多的議題都是受到很多假訊息或者是特定的操弄跟帶風向"},{"start":10736.103,"end":10757.656,"text":"花蓮馬太安溪 煙色湖這個意外發生之後我們也在網路上有看到有人散播AI生成的假影片在帶風向就是試圖要把整個意外的責任甩鍋給中央政府就是說沒有事先做好撤離或者是相關的一個宣導"},{"start":10759.257,"end":10776.77,"text":"在AI生成的假影片確實是會影響到我們整個民眾的認知或者是輿論的方向過去其實已經很長一段時間有這樣子的現象存在可是國民黨一直都不承認也不願意面對"},{"start":10777.611,"end":10806.383,"text":"可是在他們這一次的國民黨的這個黨主席的選舉他們自己受害了他們才願意去承認跟面對這樣子的一個現象像在他們國民黨主席的投票是18日那在這個投票日之前他們國民黨這個你可以說是這個戰鬥藍正生藍的這個趙少康他也在記者會裡面他有說來自這個TikTok和YouTube的影片內容高度支持特定的候選人"},{"start":10806.983,"end":10834.595,"text":"而且這個註冊時間是在國民黨啟動黨主席選舉的一個前夕然後他在這個記者會裡面也強調他說政告大陸當局不要介入國民黨主席的選舉所以連國民黨他現在也承認了就是他們藍營的人士也承認了就是面對來自中國的這種這個網路的一個訊息的介入跟影響是非常的直接跟明顯的"},{"start":10836.036,"end":10862.908,"text":"所以對於這個境外的假帳號還有AI變照的影片結合演算法確實是影響了我們的社會的認知跟操縱的輿論這是確實存在而且目前這種現象越來越嚴重所以在面對這樣子的一個狀況就是我不曉得說以我們主委的一個專業未來你會怎樣來有什麼想法或應對的"},{"start":10864.048,"end":10879.155,"text":"好,谢谢委员的提问,确实我们现在目前的每天在不管是GSN也好,或者是网路上面,以我以前每天当上国家南部网络中心主任,我们是每天都有几百万的骇客在攻击的。"},{"start":10879.335,"end":10907.17,"text":"所以那個是完全沒有辦法去用想像中的想像出來的那針對像這些的就像我們講是一個身體最簡單的道理你要讓你身體變成強壯你才不怕這些的攻擊那現在現況上面呢確實對於不管是網路上面的假訊息假的影片還有說這些演算法如果按照科技的角度來講所有演算法和這些"},{"start":10908.01,"end":10934.639,"text":"技術它是中性的它的立場其實是沒有中立場的那是被用的人它造成了一些的危害所以換句話說現在目前在對於境外的主角上面已經有很早了用AI來賭AI用AI來抓假訊息用AI來針對抓假的影片所以這些的做法現在都是用已經有不少的演算法在進行了"},{"start":10935.299,"end":10956.978,"text":"那我个人很庆幸的在自己的专长上面刚好也是资讯科技还有AI专长如果有机会进到NCC服务的话我就应该会把这个当作是将日后我们的重点希望NCC能够与时近距近的把法规面去做进程之外呢我们也希望NCC能够更快速的"},{"start":10957.678,"end":10978.929,"text":"协助例如说像新闻媒体做查证的工作自动去查证验证假讯息这些的检验等等希望这些都能够用科技的方式来做到谢谢是好很高兴听到主委这样子的一个回答然后也让我们对主委未来带领NCC有很高的一个期待那我们知道就是说"},{"start":10979.609,"end":11000.458,"text":"現在科技的一個運用就是這個Meta透過這個演算法我覺得對於整個社會真的是影響非常的嚴重因為我們看到事實上在美國他也曾經大規模起訴Meta因為他們揭露說這個臉書還有這個IG的一個演算法把兒童推入有害的這個內容就是只要我們點閱了這個"},{"start":11002.559,"end":11021.116,"text":"觀看的影片或相關的一個議題之後可能Meta就是會透過演算法來推給相關的一個內容所以我們也就是說擔心就是說透過境外透過這樣子的一些影片就是來影響我們的輿論之後然後把相關的一些"},{"start":11022.037,"end":11050.288,"text":"假的影片或訊息在推播給我們的百姓跟鄉親所以我覺得這個AI的一個主角真的是非常的重要我們也希望就是說未來在於整個傳播媒體上我們NCC有這個責任就是說要協助這個廣電媒體來防止這個假訊息剛剛主委也有做一個明確的一個回答了所以在這部分我們也希望就是說"},{"start":11051.908,"end":11077.62,"text":"主委真的上任之後我們也希望我們在這邊當然要呼籲這個在野黨要來支持畢竟NCC是獨立的一個機關一個單位那我們也希望就是說賦予NCC這樣的一個責任那未來能夠發揮您的專長來協助就是廣電媒體防止這個假訊息協助我們這個社會的一個安定非常非常感謝委員的建議謝謝您"},{"start":11081.469,"end":11106.398,"text":"謝謝陳樹葉委員發言完畢 現在請林怡瑾委員發言謝主席 有請蔣主委被提名人請被提名人委員好"},{"start":11108.278,"end":11120.603,"text":"貝提曼好 紐約時報控告這個OpenAI侵權案 我想國際矚目那同時也成為我國探討媒體溢價法 這個過程中那國內媒體高度矚目的重點"},{"start":11121.431,"end":11149.452,"text":"那人工智慧AI是您的專長之一所以首先想要請教台灣該如何面對AI時代下的侵權爭議那尤其是你將任NCC的主委所以要特別請教您就是媒體在AI時代下的這個權力保障具體而言就是說你是否支持新聞有價那如果你支持新聞有價那在NCC的角度那該如何協助國內媒體因應AI的發展"},{"start":11150.954,"end":11168.059,"text":"謝謝委員的提問所有的媒體都是由記者女士先生們慢慢地把它這個字一個字一個字刻出來的所以換句話說呢當他們報導新聞的時候被這一些所謂的大型的媒體拒售瞬間用搜尋引擎就"},{"start":11169.019,"end":11191.076,"text":"拿去他们当作自己的这样子的侵犯自治财产权这样的做法呢确实现在在全世界大家都注意到了那国内呢也针对这样的议题呢由社会发展部还有由NCC以及其他的甚至于公平会他们都目前现在正在讨论当中虽然他们并没有一个一致的共识到目前为止"},{"start":11191.616,"end":11215.118,"text":"但是可以看得出來現況上面假如我們國內很清楚的讓全民的共識已經達到這個地步的話這個時候我們的政府就可以站出來很勇敢的跟這些大型的媒體說當你日後在台灣你要去做什麼樣的檢索的話你應該要採取什麼樣的作為"},{"start":11215.859,"end":11240.03,"text":"那這樣子的話呢我相信應該是目前所謂的侵權的爭議上面可以的一個做法 謝謝雖然剛剛我們先探討AI時代的問題喔那不過實際上就連舊網路時代下Google啦 Meta這種跨國平台跟媒體間的那種權利義務的關係都還沒有釐清喔就從加拿大跟澳洲推動媒體溢價法的例子就可以知道這是一場團體戰"},{"start":11241.491,"end":11261.524,"text":"那從媒體到政府各部門必須要做好因應平台措施的準備那在立法後也需要長期的密切合作因為我們可以想見就發生在加拿大跟澳洲這種新聞內容招平台下架的案例必定也會出現在通過假設通過媒體議價法的台灣"},{"start":11262.705,"end":11281.045,"text":"那好 所以我們不能放任媒體在打獨鬥所以立法的同時我們也要提出因應平台抵制的這個解方所以想請教你如果你成為主委是否會繼續來推媒體議價法或者你認為台灣怎麼因應跨國平台這個抵制的措施好"},{"start":11281.966,"end":11303.127,"text":"現況上面我們其實很清楚就是所謂的凝聚社會的共識也就是有民意基礎的時候當有民意基礎的時候其實這時候我們的主管機關就應該要很明確的去跟這些跨國民進來去溝通例如我們的社會認同你這些Meta來台灣但是你應該有明確的責任"},{"start":11303.968,"end":11322.829,"text":"有負責任的落地那這些負責任的落地呢就是我們不會用不當的方式去干擾你或干預你的這些商業行為但是你必須尊重在台灣這樣子的一個有主權的國家我們的媒體應該要有現有的這樣子的一個支持所以"},{"start":11324.649,"end":11349.061,"text":"因為 速發部啦 速發部對於媒體溢價法 他認為雖然利益良善 可是他覺得執行上有自愛難行的地方那所以速發部是希望轉成 發展成台灣優質媒體共同分潤平台那可是本席認為 你如果要搞這種平台 那我覺得你要先必須解決三個問題第一個就是說 你捐款"},{"start":11350.126,"end":11366.407,"text":"是不具備強制力 那所以他怎麼樣確保財源的穩定 第二他要求民眾要訂閱那是否就是你將原先跨國數位平台的這些該承擔的這個成本跟責任轉嫁到人民身上的問題嘛 好"},{"start":11367.008,"end":11391.18,"text":"那第三如果最終我們還是必須要透過議價跟基金的豁免機制來達成平台這個軍政的誘因那麼我們就會回歸到議價跟基金的制度該如何設計的問題所以必須提出說如果平台就直接撤掉所有台灣的新聞內容假設又或者直接撤出台灣的市場那我們要怎麼樣因應"},{"start":11393.305,"end":11410.126,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的提議其實我相信速發部現在從新的速發部的部長現在目前最新的分論制的平台現在目前就我所知是還在溝通當中還在演繹對我覺得主管機關不管是數位發展部或者NCC我們應該有個明確的開明態度"},{"start":11412.948,"end":11431.434,"text":"讓這些國外的大型的媒體或者大型的這些數位平台讓他們不會覺得台灣是一個反傷的國家之外呢也讓他們理解到說落地的責任在哪裡那我認為落地的責任可以讓企業或者這種大型企業他們去思考到"},{"start":11431.954,"end":11449.557,"text":"他對企業社會的責任在哪裡而非只是在這邊把所有該拿到的資源把它拿走那我認為用這種方式跟大型的數位平台應該是有溝通的空間 謝謝好 那我再來再跟您請教就是廣播電視法的改革的問題"},{"start":11450.658,"end":11473.897,"text":"因為2024年總統立委大選的時候有特定的候選人遭質疑就是說因為他身兼新聞媒體的董事長的職務所以我們恐怕這個會讓這個新聞媒體失去報導大選的公正性所以因此為了杜絕這種掌握政治權利然後又有意角逐這個公職者那他會藉由來這個操控媒體的這個狀況來操作輿情"},{"start":11475.879,"end":11492.721,"text":"所以那時候本席有提案修正廣播電視法的第五條之一規定政黨黨務工作人員跟政務人員跟選任公職人員跟登記參選公職者都不得投資廣播電視事業或任廣播電視事業董事或董董"},{"start":11493.542,"end":11512.969,"text":"那我那時候提的時候在野黨對本席這個大家撻伐可是你現在我們來看喔這個黨狗害媒啊這個世紀大醜聞爆發我們又再一次發現其實政治人物又或者意圖掌握政治權權利者他跟媒體的關係真的是必須要被嚴謹規範喔"},{"start":11514.449,"end":11525.042,"text":"那所以我要請教貝提名人 你是否支持我本席的這個修法方向那在你的未來的領導下 這個廣播電視法你又想要有怎麼樣的修正革新"},{"start":11525.95,"end":11548.668,"text":"好,谢谢委员的提案,由于我并没有参与广播电视法第五条的修正案,非常谢谢你提这个要讲,我觉得不管现在的党政军的条款,后来将来的日后对于媒体的管制等等,我认为透明,让所有的监督都有透明的管道可循,那这个是应该最好的方式了。"},{"start":11549.749,"end":11562.417,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝林益錦委員發言完畢現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請徐護魁委員發言主席有請我們蔣備提名人"},{"start":11583.28,"end":11600.227,"text":"委員好背題面人好我知道背題面人都一向在學校教書今天到立法院會不會緊張會的我想我們還是一樣這個用最最好的一個應答的態度來面對所有委員的一個質詢"},{"start":11601.823,"end":11628.735,"text":"那您有特別提到NCC應該超然與政治跟商業勢力確保公共利益跟一個通訊的權益我想這一點我非常的認同但是回歸專業不只是口號尤其我們現在社會期待看到NCC不再是一個被動的一個裁法的一個機關而是能夠主動引導產業確保民眾權益的一個建立機關我想貝提你們贊成這樣的一個說法嗎"},{"start":11629.782,"end":11644.853,"text":"是的但是我們目前全民最關心的一個議題就是詐騙的這個問題那當然NCC在這個防詐工作裡面負責一個通訊端一個跟一個媒體端的一個防詐的一個功能所以包含"},{"start":11646.214,"end":11662.199,"text":"簡訊的部分第四台的廣告查核甚至目前風起雲湧的這個網路詐騙廣告的下架部分但是很可惜民眾對於NCC的作為似乎感受不到我們有這樣的一個積極的一個作為那這個被提名有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":11662.97,"end":11675.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提議確實現在一般來民眾來講普遍痛苦指數最高的就是有不斷的就是像是鋪天蓋地似的這麼多的詐騙的訊息詐騙的簡訊那NCC過往其實也用"},{"start":11680.568,"end":11699.864,"text":"賭詐的方式就是去希望強制性的三大媒體去用No Your Customer的方式去清楚的把所有的簡訊的訊息去做不當的去做攔截現在現況上面就我所知道已經有很好的改善的措施了將來其實很簡單的就是"},{"start":11702.046,"end":11729.569,"text":"慢慢的如果能夠讓三大電訊或者其他的電訊公司去透過這樣子的機制去更強制去讓更多的媒體對不起 讓電信公司它了解到它應該有這個社會的責任去做這件事情的話那這樣子再透過監督的方式那NCC可以透過監督的方式去了解他們是不是真的做到了這樣子的防制詐騙的工作"},{"start":11730.397,"end":11746.229,"text":"尤其我們自己從基層出來很多的長輩也好年輕人也好最近有被詐騙的案件真的還是層出不窮那有些老人家這個努力的辛苦工作一輩子這個積蓄全部都被騙了這欲哭無淚所以我想這個詐騙的工作"},{"start":11747.51,"end":11773.068,"text":"絕對不是只有NCC要負責任未來您尤其您這個未來你上任之後也有可能是擔任主委的工作怎麼樣在這樣的一個既有架構裡面強化跟警政署也好 監管也好甚至速發布的一個協作機制甚至未來能夠跨部會整合做一個通訊詐騙應變中心甚至是 甚至是橫向的一個通報機制我想"},{"start":11774.389,"end":11798.457,"text":"被提名的你是不是支持未來做這樣一個跨平台防詐廣告的一個聯合集合的一個機制當然非常謝謝委員的提議這是一個很好的構想那未來如果你上任之後這樣會很快的推動這樣的一個機制嗎一定會會啦那尤其現在網路包含LINE也好FB也好YT也好這些平台雖然在台灣經營但是因為總公司都在外國"},{"start":11800.305,"end":11827.111,"text":"很多人都會覺得他們在規避我們的一個監理那未來您上任之後是不是主張未來大型平台應該在台灣設立一個法尊的一個窗口甚至有一個即時下架的一個回報機制是的 委員提到問題其實也就是我在回應黨團的意見上非常清楚地表達了就是我們針對這種境外的大型的數位平台由於它並不在台灣可是呢 它的關鍵就是"},{"start":11828.328,"end":11856.815,"text":"主管機關可以要求他負責任的落地他們不能只是來這邊賺錢都不用負責任您說得很好不僅是讓他在這個地方賺錢他應該要對這個社會的責任他不但應該要有窗口他不但應該要有法尊的機制甚至於他應該要有很完整的去做追蹤將來他在這個地方的所有的這種反詐騙的這些行為那NCC如果有機會的話我們會對這件事情去做一個透明的一個"},{"start":11857.755,"end":11877.105,"text":"指標的顯示好那另外我還是要特別強調這個像我們屏東來講我們有偏鄉也有離島那過去因為我們自己在地方跑行程的時候也有很多的鄉親在反映不要說5G啦有時候甚至4G 3G都不到有的地方甚至連網路訊息都沒有網路訊號都沒有"},{"start":11877.705,"end":11902.096,"text":"那未来您上任之后针对这样部分能不能积极跟我们相关包含抒发部也好交通部也好跟电信业者能够做一个沟通平台强化这个通讯品质吗谢谢委员提案确实通讯不仅仅是救灾的生命线而且通讯是一切连续的最重要的管道那NCC过往呢既然是主管通讯的"},{"start":11903.616,"end":11931.263,"text":"我們就應該責無旁貸的在任何的情況之下確保不管是偏鄉離島或者是在平時在災害發生的時候都能夠擁有一樣的一個權利我想一樣三大電信業者也不是只有賺錢他們在重要的時候尤其像一些救災也好甚至我們一些現場的指揮中心也好應該扮演這樣行動激勵台甚至支援一個很重要的角色"},{"start":11932.003,"end":11950.865,"text":"那尤其我們偏鄉有很多的那個基地台建置不足的部分我想NCC也應該要協調全面來盤頂甚至未來面對極端氣候的挑戰不是只有你們不是只有做一個監理機關而是一個通訊韌性建設的一個推手北京人贊成嗎非常贊成 謝謝委員"},{"start":11951.946,"end":11974.738,"text":"好 我想社會期待NCC能夠回歸專業 維持獨立但是我更期待未來您組長NCC之後能夠展現積極的作為讓防詐更有效 媒體更健全 通訊更公平那我想最後請貝提敏 未來您上任之後要帶領NCC達到什麼樣的一個具體的一個目標"},{"start":11976.039,"end":11987.097,"text":"剛才我有花一點時間介紹我個人的理念那我用很短的時間內我也是像如同委員的期待一樣我們希望NCD將來是一個正直公平的一個機關讓我們的社會大眾"},{"start":11990.843,"end":12004.926,"text":"認識到這是一個可以期待的一個這樣的中立的獨立的機關我想要要化解在野黨的疑慮也是必須要您要展現他的誠意來處理好謝謝謝謝好謝謝許富奎委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝主席那我們一樣請這個被提名人蔣榮軒"},{"start":12020.996,"end":12036.443,"text":"請備提名人委員好 講老師你好 這個一開始來請問一下這個針對一些新的技術e-sync這問題我想"},{"start":12039.304,"end":12064.785,"text":"過去也討論了非常多次eSIM卡問題討論非常多次我想包含說因為iPhone 17上市之後他們強調在全球的市場裡面主要的主推是eSIM卡但是台灣市場就是因為我們NCC過去是不開放也不支持的狀況所以說iPhone 17在台灣推出的時候它必須針對台灣有特製的Nano SIM卡的狀況所以說我要問說主委無論未來你擔任主委的話對於eSIM卡的態度"},{"start":12065.626,"end":12093.229,"text":"你們的立場怎麼樣好 謝謝我們果然科技立委問的問題就是不一樣那回答委員剛剛的問題現況上面其實我大概就是那35%的其實我個人出國就是使用ECM那所以我也認為說這個當它是科技的趨勢的話那部個組黨的話應該是NCC就應該主動的去把這樣的推動當作是它的必須要去做的事情 謝謝所以主委 對不起"},{"start":12094.811,"end":12100.27,"text":"梁老師如果未來擔任主委的話你會帶動 帶領NCC去推動這個事情嗎"},{"start":12101.756,"end":12129.207,"text":"還是說要看因為過去很多的藉口跟理由就是過去這幾年大家不斷強調不管在這邊質詢也好或在媒體上面也好大家一問說為什麼NCC不推動eSIM原因是因為可能怕詐騙怕一些有的沒有的原因但是實務上當然我們知道現在的就算是實體的SIM它實際上它還是有很多詐所謂詐騙的問題所以在這個情況之下未來如果您真的能夠順利來擔任主委的話是不是我們會往這個方向來開放不只是iPhone我想各家手機業者"},{"start":12130.563,"end":12145.314,"text":"技術上基本上都做到但是因為法規限制跟NCC過去不支持所以現在除了iPhone之外很多Android手機它的系統裡面它也沒辦法使用eSIM那我只要問說NCC的這態度如果未來您擔任主委你會不會就是往這個開放的路線來走"},{"start":12146.854,"end":12161.705,"text":"我想我會更積極的去了解現在目前這個技術和我們現在目前國內現有的法規衝突之處以及為何現在NCC針對這個eSIM卡的態度是屬於比較消極的我想我會優先去了解這件事情"},{"start":12162.225,"end":12184.005,"text":"謝謝您主委講好這個是要拜託啦因為我想這世界各國真的是對於E-SYNC的這個技術上其實應該是沒有問題的包含說防詐包含說相關的法規世界各先進國家都會做到那唯獨台灣做不到這部分我希望如果您真的能夠順利就任這部分要重新來檢討那再來當然針對很多我們這個委員關心的說中天案的問題"},{"start":12185.126,"end":12193.33,"text":"我想過去在這個中天電視台被關台這個事情上我想先請教一下主委你認為言論標準有沒有言論自由有沒有一個標準的問題"},{"start":12197.008,"end":12218.559,"text":"好 謝偉的問題言論自由是憲法保障的基本權利換句話說不管言論自由新聞自由等等都是受國家法律保障的那言論自由呢只有在我剛剛前面介紹到只有會產生立即性而且明顯的危險的時候例如說煽動"},{"start":12221.04,"end":12241.111,"text":"這個暴力或者是其他的事情的話它才是維穩到處理到那個底線不然的話呢其實言論自由它的整體上面的管控是很是比較鬆散的 謝謝因為剛剛也都我也提到我們過去在NCC在質詢的時候也提過就是在這個中天案跟NCC之間的官司上面目前來講已經NCC啦這邊已經26敗了嘛"},{"start":12243.332,"end":12262.028,"text":"過去有很多的裁罰的標準 針對新聞事件的內容 新聞的本身NCC對中天電視 中天新聞台有些裁罰當然我們知道說 過去除了中天之外 各家新聞台不只是中天而已各家新聞台有時候的報導 有時候都會被檢舉 有時候有裁罰我想被裁罰的不會只有中天新聞台被裁罰"},{"start":12263.869,"end":12289.634,"text":"過去有這麼多的裁罰的記錄之後然後因為裁罰記錄這麼多所以過去是用這樣的方式去把這個新聞台關掉那我想問主委說問江老師說未來如果您擔任主委的話這些被撤銷的裁罰被撤銷的行政處分會不會影響到中天如果他想要重新申請回覆他電視台的這個影響他的權益您的立場是什麼"},{"start":12291.053,"end":12308.459,"text":"確實中天案引起了社會大眾廣泛的討論這也讓現在目前社會大眾會注意到它是不是真正的當年2020年的時候那個審造案的過程當中是不是有瑕疵我相信現在已經進入到一個司法程序了"},{"start":12309.119,"end":12336.562,"text":"所以呢基於尊重司法程序我會在等司法程序確認之後呢以及他的司法的見解之後呢再請NCC針對這件事情來做進一步的處置好 謝謝主委謝謝蔣老師那再來就是針對說過去的NCC委員包含是林定宇跟王維欽離開之前他們提那個正媒集團化的問題那當然認為說現在媒體多因為收入問題所以會大量去乘坐所謂政府標案容易形成這個正媒共生的問題那"},{"start":12338.243,"end":12362.84,"text":"那包含說這個蔣老師您的提名也是屬於行政院的指定來提名那未來怎麼樣確保說NCC的獨立性跟專業監督那另外會不會去主動統計並公開各機關媒體採購跟置入的預算數來強化民間的監督來避免正媒集團化跟這種正媒互相利益結構綁在一起的問題未來NCC會在這個事情上的態度是什麼"},{"start":12363.558,"end":12380.755,"text":"好的 謝謝委員的這個提問我們都知道不管是正媒共生或者是尋租等等這些最好的解決方式其實就是透明那也就是有這個機制能夠讓NCC也好或者是讓我們社會大眾"},{"start":12381.956,"end":12404.669,"text":"讓更清楚的知道這個過程當中是不是透明的包括就是政府標案也包括呢重要的這標案當中如果是經過政府標案的話他必須要載明很清楚的支持的單位那這樣子呢才能夠讓NCC做到這樣的一個獨立性的做法那我很期待有這個機會呢能夠把這個透明的機制建立起來謝謝"},{"start":12405.609,"end":12426.576,"text":"所以主委 江老師你如果擔任主委的話你會去主動去做這個事情還是要變成立法院提出來你們是被動的我要問說在政策理念上面如果您真的擔任主委這個事情你剛剛說你個人是願意支持的嘛你的心態上是支持那如果你真的接任這個位置你願不願意做這件事情主動去提這樣的法案或提這樣子的制度出來"},{"start":12431.541,"end":12441.532,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在現在請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員"},{"start":12442.353,"end":12453.502,"text":"何新淳委員不在 現在請劉淑冰委員劉淑冰委員 劉淑冰委員不在 現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在現在請張祺凱委員 張祺凱委員 張祺凱委員不在現在請煥雲委員發言"},{"start":12469.175,"end":12475.422,"text":"好謝謝昭偉那有請主委的被提名人請被提名人你好"},{"start":12486.423,"end":12515.162,"text":"主委好那我想今天您未來會擔任我們非常重要的這個機關就是有機會擔任NCC的這個主委我想為一個跟主委權責很相關的部分就是性侵的影像如果滿天飛的話那監理機關的責任到底何在那最近我想大家都有看到臺北火車站爆發不幸的性侵案有一名通緝犯把一名外景女子拉到牆邊性侵將近十分鐘"},{"start":12516.363,"end":12545.652,"text":"那我們很不幸的看到有部分電視台拿到影片後居然只有把重點部位打上馬賽克那甚至只有打眼部的就製成新聞影片那這種就是用好像擬似A片上馬賽克的方式播出性侵影片完全沒有顧慮到受害者或者是觀者的看法那造成很大的傷害那我認為這是助長性別暴力的文化"},{"start":12546.272,"end":12571.686,"text":"那我們有看到衛福部這次相當不錯他立即反映10月14號發生這個影片外傳15號就發布聲明呼籲不要再報導被害人相關資訊否則將查明嚴懲16號他的性影像處理中心兩天內就接獲14件檢舉第一時間就通知媒體及網路平台業者下架"},{"start":12572.566,"end":12600.754,"text":"那我們回來看性侵害犯罪防治法他有要求目的事業主管機關對於這種就是沒有保護到受害人相關的這個資訊的話其實會有罰款的那事實上我們在上一屆擔任立委的時候性私密影像我們有所謂的司法聯防就刑法上來講未經他人同意無故重置散佈播送等等是5年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":12601.394,"end":12630.445,"text":"是刑法的罪那當然今天我想問的是在NCC所主管的廣電媒體的製播的相關規定中其實也都有就是相關的原則包含第二點避免不宜呈現的方式不管是性騷擾性侵害等等那這個部分都應該謹慎處理畫面及聲音所以除了衛福部主管機關的性侵害犯罪防治法之外"},{"start":12630.965,"end":12657.191,"text":"NCC自己也有相關的規定又是電視新聞的主管機關那我想問的事情是那如果您當選主委的話您會做哪些事情因為這一波我們看到NCC幾乎沒有看到他有任何的聲明跟角色那如果第一個想問您有沒有注意到這件事那如果是您來擔任主委的話您會做哪些事情"},{"start":12657.991,"end":12671.716,"text":"來促成電視新聞就應該要嚴守國家的相關的法令那你會如何積極宣導檢舉的管道讓民眾跟NCC協力把違法的內容盡速移除"},{"start":12672.813,"end":12696.137,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個提問確實個人的隱私權是一個普世價值全世界人大家都重視那在這個新聞案當中我也非常的遺憾看到這個新聞的報導那現在衛福部已經在通知性影像處理中心去準備要去下架那個是針對網路但是電視新聞的主管機關是NCC沒有錯吧"},{"start":12696.417,"end":12725.399,"text":"那現況上面呢就我所知道NCC現在也開始內部有一些做一些相關處置了那目前來所有的廣播跟電視的處置方式還是要求自律為優先然後呢後面才是用法律那現況上面這個案子看起來如果有機會進到NCC我們會特別去檢討深刻來檢討這個過程當中是不是應該要政府機關主動的將這樣子的事情的傷害降到最低"},{"start":12727.423,"end":12734.562,"text":"請問講被提名人那您覺得現在這個自律機制有運作的好嗎就以這個就是北車的這個事件"},{"start":12735.795,"end":12760.436,"text":"我現在沒有辦法做個案的探討不過現在目前的通案的探討看起來我們現在目前的廣播電視傳播業當中普遍的自律機制都有做一個自己的內容事實查核以及做內部的自律這樣的工作我想你說自律他們都有事實查核應該很多民眾都不同意吧那我想自律機制運作不好的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":12761.537,"end":12786.848,"text":"當然自律機制沒有辦法做到好的話那主管機關NCC就該用其他的他律和法律來進行自律不好的時候就是他律嘛他律就是NCC要代表我們全民的公共的利益嘛這個非常的明確這個就是公共利益就是保護受害人然後不要讓大家就是看到像性暴力的影像到處亂竄然後甚至擔心會有魔法"},{"start":12787.368,"end":12815.911,"text":"模仿的作用所以既然NCC下面已經有很明確的規範這種畫面涉及到性犯罪性暴力這些應該要謹慎處理畫面聲音避免不適宜的報導那是不是未來您可以更積極的處理這個自律機制明顯看起來不足的狀況好嗎是 應該的雖然您今天還沒有說出怎麼處理我相信您有這個誠意那請加油那您可以承諾未來會嚴加處理吧"},{"start":12816.992,"end":12820.016,"text":"一定的好OK那謝謝您好謝謝范雲委員發言完畢"},{"start":12827.099,"end":12846.972,"text":"现在继续请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在现在请钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在现在请尤浩委员尤浩委员尤浩委员不在现在请鲁明哲委员鲁明哲委员鲁明哲委员不在"},{"start":12849.298,"end":12874.663,"text":"被提名人蒋榮軒先生之說明與答詢結束那蒋榮軒先生可以先行離席 謝謝那現在做一下宣告現在休息到下午1點30分休息後進行被提名人陳明修先生之說明與答詢休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}