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謝謝召委好 請秘書長換位 好"},{"start":10.945,"end":37.844,"text":"我要聲援一下陳培宇委員昨天我跟張宏祿委員跟德國的國會議員交流他是台德友好的國會團跨黨派的他們最後邀請我們在休會的時候去訪問德國的國會而且他告訴我們說務必要在德國國會開會期間因為休會的時候德國國會議員會回到選區然後特別告訴我們德國的國會"},{"start":38.825,"end":40.047,"text":"一年开会21周"},{"start":42.214,"end":70.543,"text":"那我們聽了只能告訴他們說因為我們從上一屆開始我們沒有休會期間因為我們是全年52週都在開會所以他們沒有辦法理解為什麼我們的國會是這樣子那我想這件事情真的非常的嚴重國會已經成為多數黨反對黨的司法保護傘連續兩年那今天陳培委員關心的是到底耗費多少就是我們國家的經費"},{"start":71.743,"end":90.654,"text":"這種不合理的這個繼續研會那當然他也很關心我們公務員其實應該要有一個正常的休會期間不管是重整人事做訓練或者是說有沒有就是因為這樣必須要增加這個加班費的支出那也請秘書長能夠給陳培委員那如果連我們自己的經費資訊都要不到"},{"start":95.797,"end":115.066,"text":"平常大家在跟行政部門要什麼資訊對不對我想立法院的資訊應該要公開透明啦那我今天想問秘書長的是跟我們國會的民主有關不知道秘書長小不曉得這是哪裡的國會這個照片有沒有看過不曉得您有沒有"},{"start":116.049,"end":130.495,"text":"你去過這裡?這樣換人報告啦我知道你去過啦你代言助理去過啦這地方我進去兩次你進去兩次所以你知道這是哪裡的國會在柏林柏林"},{"start":131.295,"end":140.664,"text":"柏林對 這是德國國會就是我剛剛講過我沒有帶助理去過我是本人去過參訪那不知道祕書長有沒有去他這個頂樓這個玻璃的窮艙裡面看過"},{"start":146.909,"end":175.301,"text":"有看過那您就知道我要講什麼了他這個設計非常好他頂端有一個舊建築的頂端改成一個玻璃的窮艙象徵著公開透明也是我們剛剛陳培委員的這個主題公開透明那也是讓參訪的人在這裡可以看到國會裡面的議事進行但我今天要講的是這個窮艙裡面秘書長有去過的話就知道這裡面他放的是德國國會的民主歷程"},{"start":176.201,"end":182.47,"text":"跟在德國國會裡面曾經發生的不異的歷史秘書長你有看過吧就當時導覽應該都會有到這個部分在這裡面的這個展覽"},{"start":187.429,"end":199.478,"text":"其實大概裡面我記憶是它的一個板裡其實還有教堂它的地方旁邊還有一個教堂在我理解大概畫面的體驗我有拜讀過其實這一塊裡面大概因為當時這個裡面因為有一些是把它劃掉的"},{"start":209.486,"end":234.324,"text":"就是在蘇聯裡面劃掉 那個議題是保留的 我知道等我講完這個部分 這個部分我當時看得印象非常的深刻因為他把19...這裡面其中的一部分就是1933年3月24號希特勒他透過國會的民主 通過授權法把整個國會的民主都沒收了"},{"start":235.064,"end":252.949,"text":"那雖然在投票的時候 德國的社會民主黨等拒絕那個法律可是呢 從那個之後 國會的民主就用民主的方式在國會裡頭把它沒收那從此國會 它這邊叫做一個宣Parliament 這是裡面的這個圖示就成為一個納粹的一個傀儡國會"},{"start":257.03,"end":269.885,"text":"所以他的國會勇於呈現自己的民主歷史讓我們來參訪的人不只看到他漂亮的玻璃的窮艙浴室的運作也看到他的國會民主是怎麼樣來的要珍惜"},{"start":272.668,"end":292.626,"text":"然後德國的大廈的議員大廳裡面還有裝置藝術就是把所有當過民主選舉的國會議員的名字放在那那其中被納粹屠殺的議員還有標註一條黑帶註明他們是怎麼樣受害的還有遇害的日期"},{"start":293.406,"end":308.646,"text":"這個就是德國國會怎麼樣重視他自己的威權歷史可是我們的國會呢我們每天這麼多的參訪團除了我們韓院長很親切的叫大家跟他們打招呼之外他們有因為來看我們的國會"},{"start":309.867,"end":335.118,"text":"了解我們的民主歷史嗎我想您看過這麼多國會應該知道就建築上我們的國會其實並沒有比較富麗堂皇最重要的是我們有一個從威權到民主的過程我想秘書長應該可以認得出這張照片看得出來我們的國會曾經有過這樣的狀況嗎您知不知道這張照片代表什麼"},{"start":340.068,"end":350.927,"text":"您的年紀就我都有印象我看過這樣的照片在大學的時候您應該看過秘書長看得出來這個照片在幹嘛嗎那是在國民大會吧"},{"start":351.753,"end":371.549,"text":"國民大會那為什麼這個人是躺著在投票呢因為這個過程裡面我只能這樣說啦其實立法院以前也有啦沒有躺著啦也有是因為有些委員生病這裡面來投票你要講的是因為他是六年的一個選舉投票"},{"start":372.49,"end":395.302,"text":"這個是當年的常常發生的事每次投票就有人從醫院被抬出來因為他們年紀已經很大了因為第一屆的立委跟國大代表超過40年沒有改選這是1954年的一張照片在病床上被抬來投票這就是我們的威權的歷史我們的民主國會的黑暗的威權歷史"},{"start":396.383,"end":422.768,"text":"那如果德國國會可以讓參訪的民眾了解這段歷史學習民主的不易我們的國會是不是能夠透過常態的展覽手冊的方式讓我們國會的歷史能夠讓所有來訪的民眾知道那秘書長可以往這個方向努力嗎我大概也昨天也跟秘書處大概也稍微談了一下子因為其實"},{"start":423.988,"end":447.775,"text":"我們在像剛才換委員所提的這些資料其實在義政博物館在數位點場的時候民眾義政博物館義政博物館在台北我們人家參觀的是我們人法院你們希望在院區吧我知道所以孔處長來跟我講我說我會循著來去看他們有一些展覽的方式裡面來彌補因為我們這個是學校"},{"start":451.536,"end":467.869,"text":"不是像德國那邊的國會的那些形象所以那個展場我們這裡是學校所以不能做這件事學校不是更應該是教育的地方嗎它原來是學校我們知道啊所以跟德國國會那個有點落差不太相同"},{"start":468.029,"end":493.018,"text":"人家是專門設計的時候在如果有一天我們有一個新的國會當然應該要這樣但是現在就不做這件事情你現在就沒有透過常態展覽手冊跟建築空間無關吧我們有在做是在益政博物館那邊民眾會到益政博物館他來立法院我們每天這麼多參訪的人所以他昨天來跟我講我說你可以去思考看看"},{"start":493.898,"end":507.396,"text":"我思考看看我的質詢 怎麼是我思考看看我說你去思考看看因為你所要的情況跟德國國會這個不太相同但是你後來有提到說用展場的方式常態展覽跟手冊跟國會的建築無關吧"},{"start":511.801,"end":536.943,"text":"那個手冊是沒有問題啦就是說你所要像德國那樣那大概我們大概因為這邊是學校嘛所以我才說你思考用另外的面向來呈現因為我們在醫政博物館那邊有醫政博物館參觀的人跟來立法院參觀的人所以我才說你思考把這個你所要的東西看要怎麼樣去呈現出來我昨天是跟他這樣報告"},{"start":538.783,"end":560.191,"text":"那您認同這個應該做吧我跟你講是人家來參觀立法院每天韓院長在這邊叫大家打招呼的民眾不是只能來看我們這個原本是學校的建築物嗎他應該要了解我們的民主的歷史跟精神嗎曾經有過的黑暗的歷史嗎"},{"start":562.677,"end":586.43,"text":"要這樣說明了德國的國會就能夠說希特勒當時是怎麼樣用民主沒收國會了你可不可以找專家大家跨黨派推薦都可以不要在這邊跟我辯論範圍好不好那個剛剛講的這個曾經就是躺在病床上來我們的國會投票的是不是我們國會的威權歷史"},{"start":588.496,"end":606.633,"text":"40年的黑歷史 我們從1992年到現在 請問多少年了我們沒有辦法去處理 讓大家知道這段歷史因為要這樣區分啦 因為三個都相當等同於國會嘛那因為官方有所提 這是國民大會啦"},{"start":607.934,"end":631.036,"text":"那我們第一屆的立法院也叫國會嘛我們當年有國民大會跟立法院啊我們是第二屆才開始有民主的國會嘛你要跟我辯論這個歷史嗎我要這樣說明啦 因為76號解釋 你問相當於民主國家是這三個嘛所以你現在所列的是國民大會對 我是只有找到這張照片你們可以找到第一屆立法委員的照片好嗎"},{"start":631.997,"end":650.287,"text":"你要跟我糾正照片那你把照片找出來把歷史保存下來不要只放在南部的議政這個部分就放在我們立法院找個地方那你沒有地方你可以用手冊用這個介紹的這個文宣參訪的人不應該知道我們的威權黑歷史嗎"},{"start":653.565,"end":674.62,"text":"這個整個流程我要這樣說明的立法案的過程當然他因為這麼簡單的一件事情我們可以在這裡扯這麼久我們的立委們都已經要等著要審預算了這是我的預算案等一下看有立委要反對嗎他如果大家要否決掉我沒話說那您不能夠就接受他說去努力嗎還要在這邊跟我辯論"},{"start":677.042,"end":698.037,"text":"剛剛陳培委員講預算不公開透明 也要在這邊扯很久我現在講一個簡單的東西 你還去過德國國會那你現在要跟我說 說什麼說這張照片是國大 不是立法院 要找個立法院的照片給大家我要這樣說明 因為你的案有寫不義的遺址所以這裡面的邏輯上是"},{"start":699.778,"end":728.3,"text":"我現在跟你說國會的威權歷史你跟我說不義遺址那你這個德國國會歷史不管它叫不義遺址或叫做黑歷史它就是那個國會的歷史好不好我們這個國會的歷史我們如果朝向民主的轉型這方面來那個修辭你可以提議我修改對對我是要跟委員報告是從這個方向去思考那我剛剛講這個德國國會的歷史你就有聽懂了吧"},{"start":728.901,"end":740.605,"text":"就是這個國會曾經沒收自己的國會民主的歷史黑歷史好嗎好那這可以吧我等一下預算書預算案像有這個好謝謝主席的耐心謝謝好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}