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謝謝召委好 請秘書長換位 好"},{"start":10.945,"end":37.844,"text":"我要聲援一下陳培宇委員昨天我跟張宏祿委員跟德國的國會議員交流他是台德友好的國會團跨黨派的他們最後邀請我們在休會的時候去訪問德國的國會而且他告訴我們說務必要在德國國會開會期間因為休會的時候德國國會議員會回到選區然後特別告訴我們德國的國會"},{"start":38.825,"end":40.047,"text":"一年开会21周"},{"start":42.214,"end":70.543,"text":"那我們聽了只能告訴他們說因為我們從上一屆開始我們沒有休會期間因為我們是全年52週都在開會所以他們沒有辦法理解為什麼我們的國會是這樣子那我想這件事情真的非常的嚴重國會已經成為多數黨反對黨的司法保護傘連續兩年那今天陳培委員關心的是到底耗費多少就是我們國家的經費"},{"start":71.743,"end":90.654,"text":"這種不合理的這個繼續研會那當然他也很關心我們公務員其實應該要有一個正常的休會期間不管是重整人事做訓練或者是說有沒有就是因為這樣必須要增加這個加班費的支出那也請秘書長能夠給陳培委員那如果連我們自己的經費資訊都要不到"},{"start":95.797,"end":115.066,"text":"平常大家在跟行政部門要什麼資訊對不對我想立法院的資訊應該要公開透明啦那我今天想問秘書長的是跟我們國會的民主有關不知道秘書長小不曉得這是哪裡的國會這個照片有沒有看過不曉得您有沒有"},{"start":116.049,"end":130.495,"text":"你去過這裡?這樣換人報告啦我知道你去過啦你代言助理去過啦這地方我進去兩次你進去兩次所以你知道這是哪裡的國會在柏林柏林"},{"start":131.295,"end":140.664,"text":"柏林對 這是德國國會就是我剛剛講過我沒有帶助理去過我是本人去過參訪那不知道祕書長有沒有去他這個頂樓這個玻璃的窮艙裡面看過"},{"start":146.909,"end":175.301,"text":"有看過那您就知道我要講什麼了他這個設計非常好他頂端有一個舊建築的頂端改成一個玻璃的窮艙象徵著公開透明也是我們剛剛陳培委員的這個主題公開透明那也是讓參訪的人在這裡可以看到國會裡面的議事進行但我今天要講的是這個窮艙裡面秘書長有去過的話就知道這裡面他放的是德國國會的民主歷程"},{"start":176.201,"end":182.47,"text":"跟在德國國會裡面曾經發生的不異的歷史秘書長你有看過吧就當時導覽應該都會有到這個部分在這裡面的這個展覽"},{"start":187.429,"end":199.478,"text":"其實大概裡面我記憶是它的一個板裡其實還有教堂它的地方旁邊還有一個教堂在我理解大概畫面的體驗我有拜讀過其實這一塊裡面大概因為當時這個裡面因為有一些是把它劃掉的"},{"start":209.486,"end":234.324,"text":"就是在蘇聯裡面劃掉 那個議題是保留的 我知道等我講完這個部分 這個部分我當時看得印象非常的深刻因為他把19...這裡面其中的一部分就是1933年3月24號希特勒他透過國會的民主 通過授權法把整個國會的民主都沒收了"},{"start":235.064,"end":252.949,"text":"那雖然在投票的時候 德國的社會民主黨等拒絕那個法律可是呢 從那個之後 國會的民主就用民主的方式在國會裡頭把它沒收那從此國會 它這邊叫做一個宣Parliament 這是裡面的這個圖示就成為一個納粹的一個傀儡國會"},{"start":257.03,"end":269.885,"text":"所以他的國會勇於呈現自己的民主歷史讓我們來參訪的人不只看到他漂亮的玻璃的窮艙浴室的運作也看到他的國會民主是怎麼樣來的要珍惜"},{"start":272.668,"end":292.626,"text":"然後德國的大廈的議員大廳裡面還有裝置藝術就是把所有當過民主選舉的國會議員的名字放在那那其中被納粹屠殺的議員還有標註一條黑帶註明他們是怎麼樣受害的還有遇害的日期"},{"start":293.406,"end":308.646,"text":"這個就是德國國會怎麼樣重視他自己的威權歷史可是我們的國會呢我們每天這麼多的參訪團除了我們韓院長很親切的叫大家跟他們打招呼之外他們有因為來看我們的國會"},{"start":309.867,"end":335.118,"text":"了解我們的民主歷史嗎我想您看過這麼多國會應該知道就建築上我們的國會其實並沒有比較富麗堂皇最重要的是我們有一個從威權到民主的過程我想秘書長應該可以認得出這張照片看得出來我們的國會曾經有過這樣的狀況嗎您知不知道這張照片代表什麼"},{"start":340.068,"end":350.927,"text":"您的年紀就我都有印象我看過這樣的照片在大學的時候您應該看過秘書長看得出來這個照片在幹嘛嗎那是在國民大會吧"},{"start":351.753,"end":371.549,"text":"國民大會那為什麼這個人是躺著在投票呢因為這個過程裡面我只能這樣說啦其實立法院以前也有啦沒有躺著啦也有是因為有些委員生病這裡面來投票你要講的是因為他是六年的一個選舉投票"},{"start":372.49,"end":395.302,"text":"這個是當年的常常發生的事每次投票就有人從醫院被抬出來因為他們年紀已經很大了因為第一屆的立委跟國大代表超過40年沒有改選這是1954年的一張照片在病床上被抬來投票這就是我們的威權的歷史我們的民主國會的黑暗的威權歷史"},{"start":396.383,"end":422.768,"text":"那如果德國國會可以讓參訪的民眾了解這段歷史學習民主的不易我們的國會是不是能夠透過常態的展覽手冊的方式讓我們國會的歷史能夠讓所有來訪的民眾知道那秘書長可以往這個方向努力嗎我大概也昨天也跟秘書處大概也稍微談了一下子因為其實"},{"start":423.988,"end":447.775,"text":"我們在像剛才換委員所提的這些資料其實在義政博物館在數位點場的時候民眾義政博物館義政博物館在台北我們人家參觀的是我們人法院你們希望在院區吧我知道所以孔處長來跟我講我說我會循著來去看他們有一些展覽的方式裡面來彌補因為我們這個是學校"},{"start":451.536,"end":467.869,"text":"不是像德國那邊的國會的那些形象所以那個展場我們這裡是學校所以不能做這件事學校不是更應該是教育的地方嗎它原來是學校我們知道啊所以跟德國國會那個有點落差不太相同"},{"start":468.029,"end":493.018,"text":"人家是專門設計的時候在如果有一天我們有一個新的國會當然應該要這樣但是現在就不做這件事情你現在就沒有透過常態展覽手冊跟建築空間無關吧我們有在做是在益政博物館那邊民眾會到益政博物館他來立法院我們每天這麼多參訪的人所以他昨天來跟我講我說你可以去思考看看"},{"start":493.898,"end":507.396,"text":"我思考看看我的質詢 怎麼是我思考看看我說你去思考看看因為你所要的情況跟德國國會這個不太相同但是你後來有提到說用展場的方式常態展覽跟手冊跟國會的建築無關吧"},{"start":511.801,"end":536.943,"text":"那個手冊是沒有問題啦就是說你所要像德國那樣那大概我們大概因為這邊是學校嘛所以我才說你思考用另外的面向來呈現因為我們在醫政博物館那邊有醫政博物館參觀的人跟來立法院參觀的人所以我才說你思考把這個你所要的東西看要怎麼樣去呈現出來我昨天是跟他這樣報告"},{"start":538.783,"end":560.191,"text":"那您認同這個應該做吧我跟你講是人家來參觀立法院每天韓院長在這邊叫大家打招呼的民眾不是只能來看我們這個原本是學校的建築物嗎他應該要了解我們的民主的歷史跟精神嗎曾經有過的黑暗的歷史嗎"},{"start":562.677,"end":586.43,"text":"要這樣說明了德國的國會就能夠說希特勒當時是怎麼樣用民主沒收國會了你可不可以找專家大家跨黨派推薦都可以不要在這邊跟我辯論範圍好不好那個剛剛講的這個曾經就是躺在病床上來我們的國會投票的是不是我們國會的威權歷史"},{"start":588.496,"end":606.633,"text":"40年的黑歷史 我們從1992年到現在 請問多少年了我們沒有辦法去處理 讓大家知道這段歷史因為要這樣區分啦 因為三個都相當等同於國會嘛那因為官方有所提 這是國民大會啦"},{"start":607.934,"end":631.036,"text":"那我們第一屆的立法院也叫國會嘛我們當年有國民大會跟立法院啊我們是第二屆才開始有民主的國會嘛你要跟我辯論這個歷史嗎我要這樣說明啦 因為76號解釋 你問相當於民主國家是這三個嘛所以你現在所列的是國民大會對 我是只有找到這張照片你們可以找到第一屆立法委員的照片好嗎"},{"start":631.997,"end":650.287,"text":"你要跟我糾正照片那你把照片找出來把歷史保存下來不要只放在南部的議政這個部分就放在我們立法院找個地方那你沒有地方你可以用手冊用這個介紹的這個文宣參訪的人不應該知道我們的威權黑歷史嗎"},{"start":653.565,"end":674.62,"text":"這個整個流程我要這樣說明的立法案的過程當然他因為這麼簡單的一件事情我們可以在這裡扯這麼久我們的立委們都已經要等著要審預算了這是我的預算案等一下看有立委要反對嗎他如果大家要否決掉我沒話說那您不能夠就接受他說去努力嗎還要在這邊跟我辯論"},{"start":677.042,"end":698.037,"text":"剛剛陳培委員講預算不公開透明 也要在這邊扯很久我現在講一個簡單的東西 你還去過德國國會那你現在要跟我說 說什麼說這張照片是國大 不是立法院 要找個立法院的照片給大家我要這樣說明 因為你的案有寫不義的遺址所以這裡面的邏輯上是"},{"start":699.778,"end":728.3,"text":"我現在跟你說國會的威權歷史你跟我說不義遺址那你這個德國國會歷史不管它叫不義遺址或叫做黑歷史它就是那個國會的歷史好不好我們這個國會的歷史我們如果朝向民主的轉型這方面來那個修辭你可以提議我修改對對我是要跟委員報告是從這個方向去思考那我剛剛講這個德國國會的歷史你就有聽懂了吧"},{"start":728.901,"end":740.605,"text":"就是這個國會曾經沒收自己的國會民主的歷史黑歷史好嗎好那這可以吧我等一下預算書預算案像有這個好謝謝主席的耐心謝謝好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:16:36.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:16:37.130000+08:00","text":"有請秘書長，謝謝召委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:16:37.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:16:37.771000+08:00","text":"請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:16:37.771000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:16:44.945000+08:00","text":"范委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:16:44.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:17:38.481000+08:00","text":"我要聲援一下陳培瑜委員，昨天我、張宏陸委員跟德國的國會議員交流，是臺德友好的國會團、跨黨派的，他們最後邀請我們在休會的時候去訪問德國的國會，而且他告訴我們說，務必要在德國國會開會期間，因為休會的時候，德國國會議員會回到選區，然後特別告訴我們，德國的國會一年開會21週，我們聽了只能告訴他們說，因為我們從上一屆開始沒有休會期間，我們是全年52週都在開會，他們沒有辦法理解為什麼我們的國會是這樣子，我想這件事情真的非常嚴重，國會已經成為多數黨、反對黨的司法保護傘，連續兩年。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:17:39.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:17:44.543000+08:00","text":"今天陳培瑜委員關心的是這種不合理的繼續延會到底耗費多少我們國家的經費？","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:17:48.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:13.299000+08:00","text":"當然他也很關心我們公務員其實應該要有一個正常的休會期間，不管是重整人事、做訓練，或者有沒有因為這樣而必須增加加班費的支出，也請秘書長能夠提供資料給陳培瑜委員，如果連我們自己的經費資訊都要不到，那平常大家在跟行政部門要什麼資訊，對不對？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:13.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:16.300000+08:00","text":"我想立法院的資訊應該要公開、透明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:17.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:27.145000+08:00","text":"我今天想問秘書長的是跟我們國會的民主有關，不知道秘書長曉不曉得這是哪裡的國會？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:27.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:28.365000+08:00","text":"這張照片有沒有看過？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:28.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:33.250000+08:00","text":"不曉得您有沒有去過這裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:33.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:39.453000+08:00","text":"跟范委員報告，當然我知道你去過了，你帶著助理去過，這個地方我進去過兩次。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:39.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:40.433000+08:00","text":"您進去兩次？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:40.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:42.294000+08:00","text":"所以您知道這是哪裡的國會？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:42.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:43.014000+08:00","text":"在柏林，德國國會。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:46.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:54.483000+08:00","text":"對，這是德國國會，就是我剛剛講過，我沒有帶助理去過，我是本人去參訪，不知道秘書長有沒有去頂樓的玻璃穹蒼裡面看過？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:18:54.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:18:54.664000+08:00","text":"有看過。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:00.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:03.150000+08:00","text":"有看過，那您就知道我要講什麼了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:04.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:33.826000+08:00","text":"它這個設計非常好，它的頂端是一個舊建築的頂端改成一個玻璃的穹蒼，象徵著公開、透明，也是剛剛陳培瑜委員的主題──公開、透明，也是讓參訪的人在這裡可以看到國會裡面的議事進行，但我今天要講的是，在這個穹蒼裡面，秘書長有去過的話就知道這裡面放的是德國國會的民主歷程，跟在德國國會裡面曾經發生的不義的歷史。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:34.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:35.188000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你有看過吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:35.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:36.470000+08:00","text":"當時的導覽應該都有到這個部分，在這裡面的展覽。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:41.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:48.635000+08:00","text":"其實我的記憶是它裡面其實還有教堂，那個地方旁邊還有個教堂。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:48.635000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:19:49.635000+08:00","text":"對，但是這裡面的展覽你應該知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:19:49.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:20:08.510000+08:00","text":"我理解，因為范委員的提案我有拜讀過，當時這裡面大概有一些是被劃掉了，就是大概蘇聯的部分被劃掉了，但是有些是保留的，我知道……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:20:08.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:20:09.831000+08:00","text":"好，等我講完這個部分。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:20:11.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:20:46.949000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我當時看了印象非常深刻，因為這裡面其中一部分就是1933年3月24號希特勒透過國會的民主通過授權法，把整個國會的民主都沒收了，雖然在投票的時候，德國的社會民主黨等拒絕那個法律，可是從那個之後，國會的民主，就用民主的方式在國會裡把它沒收了，他這邊叫做「Sham parliament」，就是裡面的圖示，從此國會就成為納粹的傀儡國會。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:20:51.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:21:03.865000+08:00","text":"德國的國會勇於呈現自己的民主歷史，讓我們來參訪的人不只看到它漂亮的玻璃穹頂、議事運作，也看到他們的國會民主是怎麼來的，要珍惜！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:21:06.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:21:26.606000+08:00","text":"然後德國大廈的議員大廳裡還有裝置藝術，把所有當過民主選舉的國會議員名字放在那邊，其中被納粹屠殺的議員，還有標註一條黑帶，註明他們是怎麼受害的，還有遇害的日期。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:21:27.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:21:33.975000+08:00","text":"這是德國國會怎麼樣重視他們自己的威權歷史，可是我們的國會呢？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:21:34.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:21:45.968000+08:00","text":"每天這麼多參訪團，除了我們韓院長很親切地叫大家跟他們打招呼之外，他們有因為來看我們的國會，而了解我們的民主歷史嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:21:45.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:21:57.613000+08:00","text":"我想秘書長看過這麼多國會，應該知道就建築上，我們的國會並沒有比較富麗堂皇，但重要的是，我們有一個從威權到民主的過程。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:21:58.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:02.495000+08:00","text":"我想秘書長應該認得這張照片吧！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:03.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:07.477000+08:00","text":"看得出來，我們的國會曾經有過這樣的狀況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:07.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:09.118000+08:00","text":"你知不知道這張照片代表什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:15.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:23.424000+08:00","text":"我有印象在大學時曾看過這樣的照片，以你的年紀，我想你應該看過，秘書長看得出來這張照片在幹嘛嗎？","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:23.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:24.907000+08:00","text":"那是在國民大會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:25.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:28.515000+08:00","text":"在國民大會，那為什麼這個人是躺著在投票呢？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:31.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:34.520000+08:00","text":"對於這個過程，我只能這樣說，其實立法院以前也有。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:34.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:36.162000+08:00","text":"也有，現在沒有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:36.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:36.922000+08:00","text":"沒有躺著啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:37.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:41.966000+08:00","text":"也許因為有些委員生病，但要來投票吧！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:42.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:22:45.529000+08:00","text":"你要講的是這是六年一次的選舉投票，是總統副總統的票選嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:22:46.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:27.246000+08:00","text":"對，這個是當年常常發生的事，每次投票就有人從醫院被抬出來，因為他們年紀已經很大了，第一屆的立委跟國大代表超過四十年沒有改選，這是1954年的一張照片，在病床上被抬來投票，這就是我們的威權歷史，我們民主國會黑暗的威權歷史，如果德國國會可以讓參訪的民眾了解這段歷史，學習民主的不易，我們的國會是不是也能透過常態展覽、手冊的方式，讓國會的歷史讓所有來訪的民眾知道？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:28.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:31.727000+08:00","text":"秘書長可以往這個方向努力嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:31.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:43.970000+08:00","text":"我昨天也和秘書處稍微談了一下，其實范委員所提的這些資料，在議政博物館、在數位典藏的時候，我當副秘書長時都有整理……民眾？","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:43.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:44.810000+08:00","text":"議政博物館不在臺北……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:44.810000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:45.810000+08:00","text":"但是因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:44.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:49.191000+08:00","text":"議政博物館不在臺北，人家參觀的是我們立法院！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:50.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:23:51.572000+08:00","text":"我知道，昨天溝通的時候，你們希望在院區嘛！是。","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:23:52.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:09.980000+08:00","text":"我知道，所以孔處長來跟我講的時候，我說我們可以循一些展覽方式來彌補，因為我們這個是學校，不是像德國那邊國會的那些形象，所以那個展場，我是希望能夠在……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:09.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:13.402000+08:00","text":"我們這裡是學校，所以不能做這件事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:13.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:14.402000+08:00","text":"不是，不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:14.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:16.284000+08:00","text":"學校不是更應該是教育的地方嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:16.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:17.746000+08:00","text":"它原來是學校，我們知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:18.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:21.849000+08:00","text":"因為這邊是學校，所以跟德國國會有點落差，不太相同，他昨天來跟我報告……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:22.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:25.510000+08:00","text":"人家是專門設計的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:25.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:26.510000+08:00","text":"對，我理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:26.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:34.053000+08:00","text":"如果有一天我們有一個新的國會，當然應該要這樣，但你現在就不做這件事情，現在就沒有透過常態展覽……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:34.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:35.053000+08:00","text":"我們現在是有在做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:34.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:35.654000+08:00","text":"手冊跟建築空間無關吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:35.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:39.075000+08:00","text":"我們有在做，在議政博物館那邊……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:39.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:40.816000+08:00","text":"民眾會到議政博物館嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:40.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:41.456000+08:00","text":"他來立法院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:41.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:42.456000+08:00","text":"因為范委員希望在院區……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:42.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:43.456000+08:00","text":"當然啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:42.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:43.937000+08:00","text":"我們每天這麼多參訪的人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:44.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:46.998000+08:00","text":"我知道，你們希望在院區，所以他昨天來跟我講，我說你可以思考看看，就是我們一直……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:47.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:48.860000+08:00","text":"我思考看看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:49.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:24:51.123000+08:00","text":"我的質詢欸，怎麼叫我思考看看？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:24:51.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:00.254000+08:00","text":"我說你去思考看看，因為你所要的情況跟德國國會這個不太相同，但你後來有提到用展場的方式……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:00.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:01.376000+08:00","text":"常態展覽跟手冊，這跟國會的建築無關吧！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:01.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:06.041000+08:00","text":"因為原來在議政博物館裡面都有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:06.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:19.092000+08:00","text":"我知道，手冊是沒有問題，但是你說要像德國那樣，因為這邊是學校，所以我才說你思考用另外的面向來呈現，因為在我們議政博物館那邊有，但是你希望在院區嘛！","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:19.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:22.716000+08:00","text":"議政博物館參觀的人跟來立法院參觀的人……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:22.716000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:23.716000+08:00","text":"不是，你希望在院區嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:23.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:30.762000+08:00","text":"所以我才說你思考把你所要的東西，看看要怎麼呈現出來，昨天他來跟我報告時，我是有這樣跟他講。","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:32.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:35.564000+08:00","text":"那你認同這個應該做吧？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:35.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:39.386000+08:00","text":"我們本來在議政博物館就有在做。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:39.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:41.266000+08:00","text":"我跟你講的是，人家來參觀立法院……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:41.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:42.266000+08:00","text":"我知道，你希望在院區這沒有問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:41.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:54.171000+08:00","text":"每天韓院長在這邊叫大家打招呼的民眾，不是只能來看我們這個原本是學校的建築物，他應該要了解我們民主的歷史跟精神，曾經有過的黑暗歷史。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:56.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:25:57.117000+08:00","text":"要這樣說明，因為怎麼呈現……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:25:59.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:03.981000+08:00","text":"德國的國會就能夠說希特勒當時是怎麼用民主沒收國會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:03.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:05.262000+08:00","text":"需要的範圍多大，譬如像國民大會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:05.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:12.386000+08:00","text":"你可不可以找專家，大家跨黨派推薦都可以，不要在這邊跟我辯論範圍，好不好？好。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:14.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:20.410000+08:00","text":"剛剛講的這個曾經躺在病床上來國會投票的，是不是我們國會的威權歷史？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:20.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:22.496000+08:00","text":"因為這是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:22.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:31.064000+08:00","text":"四十年的黑歷史，從1992年到現在，請問多少年了，我們沒有辦法處理，讓大家知道這段歷史，我們的民主國會……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:31.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:40.613000+08:00","text":"因為要這樣區分，那三個都相當等同於國會，因為范委員提的其實是國民大會，現在……","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:42.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:44.316000+08:00","text":"我們第一屆的立法院也叫國會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:45.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:47.619000+08:00","text":"我們當年有國民大會跟立法院啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:48.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:50.983000+08:00","text":"我們是第二屆才開始有民主的國會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:51.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:53.105000+08:00","text":"你要跟我辯論這個歷史嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:53.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:26:59.851000+08:00","text":"我要這樣說明，因為76號解釋裡面相當於一個國家有這三個國會，所以你現在所列的是國民大會……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:26:59.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:01.533000+08:00","text":"對，我只有找到這張照片……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:01.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:02.533000+08:00","text":"我理解，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:02.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:05.036000+08:00","text":"你們可以找到第一屆立法委員的照片，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:05.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:06.036000+08:00","text":"可以，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:05.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:24.287000+08:00","text":"你要跟我糾正照片，那你把照片找出來，把歷史保存下來，不要只放在中部議政博物館這個地方，就在我們立法院找個地方放，如果沒有地方，可以用手冊、用介紹的文宣，參訪的人不應該知道我們的威權黑歷史嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:27.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:33.309000+08:00","text":"這整個流程我要這樣說明，立法院的過程，當然它因為……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:33.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:35.551000+08:00","text":"這麼簡單的一件事情，我們可以在這裡扯這麼久！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:36.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:48.020000+08:00","text":"我們的立委們都已經等著要審預算了，這是我的預算案，等一下看有沒有立委反對，如果大家要否決掉，我沒話說，但你不能夠就接受它，然後去努力嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:48.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:48.620000+08:00","text":"還要在這邊跟我辯論！","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:48.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:27:51.042000+08:00","text":"不是，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:27:51.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:06.653000+08:00","text":"剛剛陳培瑜委員講預算不公開、透明，也要在這邊扯很久，我現在講一個簡單的東西，你還去過德國國會，現在要跟我說什麼這張照片是國大，不是立法院，那你找個立法院的照片給大家啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:07.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:11.837000+08:00","text":"不是，范委員，我要這樣說明，因為你的案由是寫不義的遺址，所以這裡面在邏輯上稍微有點不太一樣，所以……","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:13.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:26.548000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你說國會的威權歷史，你跟我說不義遺址，那你這個德國國會歷史，不管它叫不義遺址或叫做黑歷史，它就是那個國會的歷史，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:27.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:28.229000+08:00","text":"我們國會的歷史……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:28.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:31.171000+08:00","text":"我們如果朝向民主轉型這方面來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:31.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:33.493000+08:00","text":"修辭部分，你可以提議我修改，我們不用辯……","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:33.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:38.857000+08:00","text":"對，我是跟委員報告，大概是從這個方向去思考。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:39.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:42.280000+08:00","text":"那我剛剛講德國國會的歷史，你有聽懂了吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:42.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:47.330000+08:00","text":"就是這個國會曾經沒收自己國會民主的歷史、黑歷史，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:49.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:49.995000+08:00","text":"這可以吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:49.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:50.995000+08:00","text":"我理解，好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:50.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:51.899000+08:00","text":"我等一下有這個預算案。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:52.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:54.585000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席的耐心，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:54.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:28:54.605000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝范委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:28:55.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:29:03.676429+08:00","text":"待會在莊委員質詢完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘，然後再開始今天的預算審查。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}