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那我想部長應該有掌握那相關私自證的資料呢這份研究指出來說其實有一些資料是欠缺的例如說社會照顧成本的資料是欠缺的家庭經濟負擔的資料是欠缺的那除此之外也欠缺以家庭照顧者為中心的統計數字特別是喘息服務已經實施15年了但是相關的資料卻付之確如"},{"start":67.214,"end":95.327,"text":"那這樣的一個研究報告不只被審計部的決算報告所引用也被這個監察院的糾正文所引用這樣子所以如果欠缺這些資料我想對於政府在制定政策上其實會有一點是被公辦是被公辦那特別是呢衛福部呢根據身障權法每五年會進行檢討那也有一個調查報告那這個調查報告呢基本上是已不具有"},{"start":96.487,"end":119.173,"text":"基本上是以具有身障身份的失智症為研究對象換言之就是沒有涵蓋非具身障身份的一個失智症個案所以這樣的一個研究報告可能就沒有辦法全面性的了解所有的失智症那我們覺得蠻可惜的就變成說無法全面性了解失智症的相關資料那特別是這些失智症的資料"},{"start":119.873,"end":135.715,"text":"也散落在目前的各系統當中資料非常的零碎的散落在各系統那例如說依長照服務法所設置的服務系統依身障權法所設置的身障系統"},{"start":136.656,"end":164.898,"text":"依失智政政策綱領所設置的失智政服務管理系統這些資料散落各處然後每個系統各自為政資料零碎化那其實也反映出來說這些系統只有部分失智政個案的資料沒有全面失智政的個案的資料怎麼說呢舉例我們來看這一個失智政的一個服務管理系統其實他涵蓋的對象只有6萬那為什麼只有6萬因為他只收羅"},{"start":165.959,"end":187.599,"text":"共造中心的個案還有失智症具體的個案所以你們這邊所掌握的數據只有6萬可是事實上失智症的患者在台灣初估接近有40萬所以這個資料非常的零碎化而且沒有全面的掌握好所以部長我的訴求出現了就是說有一個叫做癌症的登錄系統"},{"start":188.2,"end":216.218,"text":"那這個系統上面針對這些癌症的一些原因分歧然後一些人口學的資料都有做一些掌握那不知道我們失智症可不可以有一個全面性的能夠呈現失智患者的資料那作為政策參考政策規劃的依據還有部件裁員的依據那像一些失智症的病因失能程度生活服務的使用狀況家庭經濟狀態就說有沒有一個"},{"start":217.379,"end":245.768,"text":"系統可以讓國人知道這些狀況讓政府部門知道這些狀況請問部長跟委員說明確實在過去我們有好多個系統散在像您所提到的但是我們已經進行整合當中了所以剛剛那個其實您剛剛說只有六萬是不止我們現在把它九個系統串起來大概可以掌握我們剛剛前面的學者的這個研究的推估"},{"start":246.468,"end":267.447,"text":"大概是近40萬人那我們現在這個系統裡面大概可以掌握到的是30幾萬大概7成不是只有這個6萬是指在那個共造中心的6萬所以大概掌握到7成左右那我們現在也把這個健保的系統也串進來了所以我們逐步在"},{"start":268.007,"end":280.059,"text":"在優化這一個系統確實我非常同意啦沒有掌握完整的資訊在不論是在做政策規劃或政策推動的評估上呢就容易有偏差啦所以這個確實應該要更完整一點至於這個系統"},{"start":284.443,"end":301.071,"text":"完成之後如何優化讓大家學者要使用也好或者是政府單位要做查詢能夠更清楚我們再來仔細的再看一下這個能夠怎麼樣來進行沒有問題一個澄清跟另外一個建議澄清就是說"},{"start":302.791,"end":324.996,"text":"這個6萬是來自於你們這些各自為政的系統其中當中的一個叫做失智政防治照護的這個服務管理系統那個系統目前就是只有6萬人那為什麼只有6萬人就是來自於失智政的據點還有共造中心嗎那當然這個系統就是只有6萬人那當然你有提到說政府現在掌握的不只這6萬人"},{"start":326.696,"end":342.211,"text":"系統串聯起來已經有37萬了那其實就可以顯示說真實的數字是什麼但是某些系統卻只有零碎的數字那當然部長也覺得說建立一個全面的系統有其必要性您剛剛也提到在串聯的而且健保的資料也會進來那我想"},{"start":343.732,"end":356.904,"text":"既然部長願意跨出一步建置一個完整資料的系統那是不是可以讓這個系統更有功能性可能不是只有單純的這些人口學的資料是不是能夠有一些生活狀況資料的反應服務使用狀況的反應家庭照顧者"},{"start":362.529,"end":388.337,"text":"照顧狀況的反應因為我在想不只政府部門一些國人特別是一些在推動失智症權益保障的這些團體都非常需要這些資料來進一步監督政府我想後續我再請長照師找一些專家還有這些團體來瞭解他們的需求就是需要這些資料的需求那才能夠我們做出的這個系統符合大家的期待我們來優化這個系統"},{"start":390.558,"end":395.423,"text":"了解謝謝部長部長現在想跟你請教另外一件事我想長照的人口與日俱增我想費用的支付未來我相信也是會攀升這是指日可待也可以預期的我想WHO有提到說長照"},{"start":407.594,"end":427.984,"text":"私自證的這個衍生的成本其實高達1.7兆美元這是全球的啦我想台灣面對這個議題在經費的花費上也應該預作準備那特別是我們這個私自證的盛行率是7.99那剛其實很多委員都有提到這個數字在5年後在15年之後有可能會攀升到47萬68萬那這個經濟"},{"start":431.606,"end":459.825,"text":"失智政照護經費呢我想日後也是要面對一個挑戰跟課題那當然您有提到說有一些政黨的版本有提到這個失智政的基金嘛其實就是民眾黨的版本確實有這個基金的概念那當您剛好像有略為表示那好像提到不是很贊成那可以跟我們分享一下因為我們失智政基金是想專用避免去擠壓長照的基金以上請您說明一下"},{"start":460.765,"end":485.263,"text":"因為第一個我看到那個版本裡面的基金它的財源的永續性看不到啦那畢竟我們現在的長照基金比較穩定它有穩定的來源那至於說新的這個要立法裡面的這個基金的財源呢反而不如我們現在長照基金的來源穩定它那個主要是以捐款為主嘛"},{"start":485.503,"end":504.716,"text":"捐款還有基金的支息然後我們提到一個長照保險經費的10%那當然長照保險現在是0嘛現在是對就是未來努力的目標那我只是想要請教您就是兩個問題第一個問題就是說因為基金的種類嘛其實也非常多我們看到其實我特別上衛福部的網站去抓"},{"start":506.037,"end":519.456,"text":"基金的種類你能滿目那當然都有他設立的必要性那我想也具有公益性那我的意思就是說如果其他的事項可以設置基金那失智證的基金也未必不能考慮那當然你剛剛有提到"},{"start":520.618,"end":534.051,"text":"其實失智的照護就是來自於長照基金那只是說我們想把它獨立出來那只是部長您的考量是說因為我們我們的版本在您看來有四個基金的有四個裁員啦但那四個裁員你覺得比較不穩定那如果其實之後"},{"start":538.095,"end":558.162,"text":"當然這些都可以提修增動益也許逐條討論大家可以提示廣益那如果把裁員因為長照的裁員也是來自於房地合一稅嘛顏品健康捲碼一正稅碼等等的一些相關的稅款如果說我們可以把這個長失智的基金把它獨立出來然後裁員也讓他穩定不知道你們不能這個認同啊"},{"start":559.602,"end":585.199,"text":"當然他從兩個角度來看就是說第一個呢他跟現有的長照基金所提供的市市省造物當中這個基金的用途那麼他的這個互補性如何他是要填補哪一塊不足的地方是不是現有的長照基金無法含納這個是第一個要去考慮的那第二個呢要設立一個新的基金當然他需要他的財源穩定"},{"start":586.159,"end":609.634,"text":"也要符合政府財政紀律法的要求的規定沒有問題反正就是部長我再帶回去思考一下也許日後我們有機會再交換意見那我問您第二個問題就是說因為剛其實就有提到為什麼要設立一個長照基金專款專用因為避免怕去擠壓長照的基金造成別的社會福利事項受到牽連除此之外"},{"start":610.635,"end":639.875,"text":"私自證本身的經費會不會因為長照基金的來源不足而受到牽連那我為什麼會提到說基金的收入來源不足因為這裡審計部就有一個資料顯示嘛長照基金的收入年成長率只有2%但是長照基金的支出卻高達9至23%這樣子那所以其實有一點入不敷出啦那如果有一點入不敷出其實就是呼應我剛剛說的把私自證獨立出來有他的基金然後專款專用"},{"start":641.336,"end":656.936,"text":"那不知道會不會破產 長照基金那不知道這個財源未來十年要如何規劃好 我跟委員說明齁這個為什麼在財政基地法裡面有提到要設立基金呢那麼你必須要考慮一下有沒有新生財源"},{"start":657.797,"end":680.138,"text":"那不然的話呢其實都是互相排擠的剛剛委員講說好像設立一塊有一個這個私日生基金就不會排擠不會因為國家的預算如果沒有新增的部分那就是互相排擠部長沒有關係那個私日生基金我們可以第二個呢我們的長照基金讓我們現在的成長的推估因為一開始的資源部件比較慢"},{"start":680.979,"end":702.912,"text":"所以大家可以知道在105年的時候大概一年只有40幾億的長照支出後來步驟就越來越綿密了我知道使用量就大所以它一定會先有一段的成長期然後再達到一個穩定的成長成績所以我們的財務推估大概在2035年前目前的長照基金是足以支應"},{"start":703.652,"end":728.2,"text":"所以即使是看起來收入是支出的這個支出是收入的4倍但你們覺得預估到203年還是可以支應可是可以支應之餘有沒有在想其他再更豐富的裁員能夠挹注進來那您對長照保險法長照保險法的推動的看法如何這個我們當然未來再來討論這個也不會完全排除不會排除長照保險法"},{"start":729,"end":756.69,"text":"好那如果不會排除長照保險法我們就更樂見我們就為失智基金看到一個曙光嘛因為剛剛有提到失智基金有一個來源是來照長照保險法如果已經有cover進來的話那就更不需要再跌床駕屋再有另外一個基金沒問題我們就是之後如果真的因為我們的基金是來自於長照保險法那部長也覺得其實是可以討論的長照保險法沒有完全的排斥然後可以討論的長期而言要不要有長照保險法是可以討論"},{"start":757.45,"end":772.88,"text":"那您對於陳時中之前提到那個證所證交稅證交稅要挹注健保那如果有一部分拿來挹注長照基金我講的是長照基金因為我們現在長照基金感覺就是支出是收入的四倍嘛你覺得長照證交稅是一個來源嗎"},{"start":774.14,"end":787.926,"text":"正委所說的跟委員說明都是一樣這個是整體國家的財政那麼都是互相會有排擠的現象所以應該要從何來看那當然我們都很希望長照能夠永續健保能夠永續我想這是全民的期待"},{"start":791.568,"end":807.267,"text":"那部長我現在請教您一件事可不可以一個月給我這個升級版的實質證登錄系統的一個研擬方案時間表因為你剛剛說其實你們已經在整合了那可不可以給我們一個時間表讓大家不會隱隱其判然後感覺好像只聞樓梯響不見人下來"},{"start":809.734,"end":832.857,"text":"這個我們來細部了解一下因為到底這個查詢系統的用途跟使用者啦是我們的這個推動這些長照業務的工作人員要查詢的還是要跟外部學者或者是單位查詢的這個我們要把它理清理清之後才要知道說哪一些可以開放到什麼程度"},{"start":833.217,"end":861.476,"text":"我知道让这个系统的价值能够发挥既有可以给国人使用政府我们先把我们目前我们这个系统的规划再盘整一下先给委员参考了解那除此之外可不可以给我们长照基金未来十年稳定裁员的规划还有您刚也不排除长照保险法在未来其实是可以考虑的选项那可以给我们一个可行性评估报告那这三样事项可不可以请一个月之内长照保险的可行性评估因为我们目前长照基金"},{"start":863.517,"end":868.281,"text":"因為我們很希望知道政府這方面的想法如果您需要長一點的時間我們其實是可以但是您可以讓我們知道政府目前的評估狀況嗎"},{"start":884.82,"end":887.105,"text":"我們的意見可以表達給委員了解"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}