{"error":false,"id":["169689"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169689,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169689","日期":"2026-05-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-15-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-05-28T10:05:49+08:00","結束時間":"2026-05-28T10:15:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/89665fc2cee9c367b9e250b40806a6955a53471ac56e363077815697e441d1b44f1e67c654a2dd135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:05:49 - 10:15:36","會議時間":"2026-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會部分。二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。三、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款客家委員會及所屬部分。四、審查客家委員會函送財團法人客家公共傳播基金會115年度預算書案。【詢答及處理，所列預算提案於115年5月22日(星期五)中午12時截止收件。】\n【5月27日、28日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.36409375,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.894718750000001,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.51471875,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.32846875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.64409375,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.09971875,"end":46.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.20096875,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.21784375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.234718750000006,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.44971875,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.72284375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.02971875,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.92659375000001,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.86284375000001,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.21284375,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.96346875,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.98034375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.03096875,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.30909375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.02471875,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.30721875,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":193.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.97534375,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.20346875,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.29596875000001,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.51409375,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.40846875000003,"end":314.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.51346875,"end":329.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.38034375,"end":338.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.66159375,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.89471875000004,"end":359.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.02534375000005,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.48159375,"end":384.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.55721875,"end":395.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.93971875,"end":395.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.22659375,"end":398.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.60159375,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.85471875,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.76596875,"end":400.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.25534375,"end":407.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.17409375000005,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.21096875,"end":416.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.89409375,"end":419.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.01596875,"end":420.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.43346875000003,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.61846875000003,"end":426.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.87159375000005,"end":426.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.85034375000004,"end":430.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.57971875000004,"end":431.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.52471875000003,"end":435.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.14409375,"end":444.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.97409375,"end":446.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.44221875000005,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.00721875000005,"end":449.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.24346875000003,"end":452.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.22596875000005,"end":458.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.13221875000005,"end":463.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.73909375000005,"end":467.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.77221875000004,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.27784375000005,"end":476.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.57721875000004,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.62221875000006,"end":486.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.30096875000004,"end":488.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.80284375,"end":490.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.60409375,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.17346875000004,"end":498.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.19346875,"end":500.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.84721875,"end":508.77846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.83784375000005,"end":507.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.18346875000003,"end":511.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.15346875,"end":513.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.85784375,"end":514.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.35971875,"end":518.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.1397187499999,"end":522.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.0759687500001,"end":526.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.66596875,"end":527.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.5222187500001,"end":530.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.9015937500001,"end":532.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.7240937500001,"end":535.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.20034375,"end":543.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.62534375,"end":545.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.89909375,"end":548.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.9072187500001,"end":553.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.07096875,"end":568.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4778437500001,"end":571.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.6884687500001,"end":585.42471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.646,"end":2.978,"text":"好 謝主席 我們先請谷主委"},{"start":8.676,"end":36.413,"text":"好主委早今天两件事情就叫第一个是客家语言发展法的进度那这个其实从2018年就已经修法说要明定这个客家语言发展法那现在也过了八年了那其实2024年的时候我也有问你说这个进度怎么样那现在呢其实还是看到说这个发展法的原版好像还是没有什么进度所以在这边想要请教这个会期到底有没有机会送进来呢"},{"start":36.493,"end":37.914,"text":"那其實就我所知現在提供的最新版本的草案其實大部分都已經收斂許多了"},{"start":54.145,"end":63.29,"text":"那很多有爭議的地方其實要跨部會協調的也差不多找到共識了那差不多應該是要收樓然後可以送進來的階段才對啊我們評估也會這樣但是慎重起見可能還會再召開一次院裡面的協調某問題就會再送過來所以這個會期有沒有機會"},{"start":76.477,"end":94.741,"text":"我們拼拼看我們這個會期很長你拼拼看還有時間好不好好我拼拼看好這個會期拜託你那另外一件事情是剛剛包括巧惠委員跟美惠委員都有提到剛好也是我今天想要詢問的重點就是這個博工照護站因為就我所知原本這個客家社區的門檻是50%那現在已經調降30%了"},{"start":98.342,"end":122.129,"text":"所以呢其實我們高雄包括三明、鳳山、古山有幾個里是符合資格的像是三明就有兩站嘛安東社區、明祥社區、鳳山也有三站那我們古山龍子社區也有一站那這是一個這個降低門檻讓更多社區可以參與我認為很好但是還是有一些里其實客家人口也蠻多的但是不符合資格為什麼因為他們是散居"},{"start":124.029,"end":144.096,"text":"这个就是刚刚几位委员都提到同样的问题就是像我们像我们交委啊这个左营男子其实也有很多客家人我们这里林亚区也有很多客家人像是林亚区就有一万九千两百位客家人口但是他们因为不符合你们那个单一里的门槛因为他们是散的"},{"start":144.756,"end":169.257,"text":"所以其實即便一萬九千位已經是差不多超過三個里的人口了但是他們還是沒辦法申請那我覺得非常非常的可惜所以這邊是不是有機會來調降不只是調降啦就是說這個條件的放寬可以是像剛剛小慧文建議的就是可能以客家社團或者是他們固定有因為他們不一定住在同一個里但是他們可能會在同一個地方聚會"},{"start":169.898,"end":183.65,"text":"那他們一樣是一個群聚的客家人口那我覺得這個都是你們應該要鼓勵的啊嗯 感謝美媛 我想國土美媛都提到這樣的問題啦所以我希望我可以跟我的同事在研究看我們用的那個設計的方向計劃來符合獨私合格的樣態啦"},{"start":193.393,"end":218.78,"text":"好那這個是希望說在這邊也真的要希望說這個條件可以再檢討因為其實客家人口他們群聚的方式可能就不一定是這麼硬性的就所以呢你們這樣其實是會把很多其實散居的人很可惜他們沒有被包含到你們這個可以鼓勵的範圍裡面所以這個是希望在這邊希望谷主委可以讓這個好的政策可以照顧到更多的客家人口"},{"start":219.44,"end":223.783,"text":"好 这边先感谢那我们是接下来请这个领主委委员好"},{"start":230.421,"end":259.238,"text":"好 主委好 在這邊就要請教了因為我覺得當然去年你們歷經了一場浩劫這邊事先覺得說主委整個黨產會很辛苦的地方包括說去年這個黨產業務的處理費被砍了九成那甚至政策宣導費百分之百都被砍了那甚至是很多相關的預算黨產會去年真的是我認為是很辛苦啦對這個台灣的轉型正義來說我覺得都是一大的打擊"},{"start":260.519,"end":284.269,"text":"那我在這邊想要請教的是這個當然不當黨喘的追討是一條非常漫長的路因為世界各國的這種轉型正義其實都是歷經非常非常長的時間才有可能有一點進展那這個是絕對不能放棄而且要非常非常有耐心的我知道說這條路很辛苦但是還是希望說轉型正義的路不能停下來但是呢最近的幾個"},{"start":285.569,"end":291.772,"text":"比較讓人失望的例子是這個3月11號這個中國國民黨的舊的中央黨部那我們黨場會敗訴但是我看一下這個內容其實他有點遺憾的是因為變成是他說形式上有償但是實際上是濫權的這種手法萬一接下來不斷的在類似的訴訟當中出現那會對我們要進行轉型正義有非常大的挑戰"},{"start":314.6,"end":336.866,"text":"就例如說前陣子之前這個大廈大樓的案子他很明顯就是當初特權綁標嘛這個然後之後又出租然後又這個轉售那其實獲利近八億那甚至是還有最近這個國發院的案子也是都是類似的情況就是很明顯都已經是當初的這個國家機器利用特權強佔"},{"start":338.826,"end":358.044,"text":"民間的資產那進行他們個人的獲利那我覺得這種特權的過去的歷史的不正義本來就應該要去扭轉啊但是在法院上面卻因為沒有這個很實質形式上的這個證據導致說我們在面對這一些歷史的不公不義"},{"start":358.965,"end":383.075,"text":"沒有辦法獲得社會的一個公道那我在這邊想要請教的是類似的例子不斷的出現那面對這些敗訴的案子接下來我們黨產會有沒有進一步的作為或者是我們要如何面對讓社會知道說即便法律上沒有還我們公道但是轉型正義的路還是要走下去啊好 謝謝委員的問題"},{"start":386.476,"end":399.694,"text":"剛才提到那三個案子包括國民黨的舊中央黨部還有台北市的大校大樓還有國發院的案子它都是同一個類型也就是說這些財產國民黨都已經把它處分掉了也就是賣掉了"},{"start":401.115,"end":418.84,"text":"針對這一類的財產法院要求我們說要去證明說當初是無償取得或者是險非相當對價取得那它的法律根據我們是非常質疑雖然法院的判決我們必須尊重但我們完全不能認同因為檔管條例第四條有針對不當取得財產"},{"start":420.089,"end":435.448,"text":"做定義那所謂不當取得財產如果被認定之後他應該就是由國家來把他取回 是的 這個是一個我想一個很基本的這個檔案處理條例的原則可是呢這個不當取得財產的定義呢他怎麼說 他說只政黨以"},{"start":437.419,"end":452.559,"text":"違反政黨本質或其他背於民主法制原則之方式為自己或其附隨組織取得財產委員我剛念了這一段裡面有特別提到說一定要是無償或者是買便宜的才是不當取得財產沒有啊"},{"start":453.3,"end":475.494,"text":"也就是說黨黨條例裡面規定的不當取得成本的定義並沒有限制在是無償取得或者寫沒相當對價取得也就是買便宜了也就是他並沒有說是一定要是最用有價錢上的問題才叫不當取得成本還有很多其他的類型包括特權包括強產那就是一個國產那麼中國國民黨中央黨部來台灣之後就近戰近戰就用了"},{"start":482.859,"end":511.214,"text":"過了20年以後他想修他迫不得已去跟國產局講得客氣了在我看來這就是請展對他要修的時候他才去跟國產局去簽了一個借用契約還承諾說兩年要還人家後來也沒有還啊然後到了一定的時候過了他就說那我要租那就稀哩呼呼租給他所以說因為他有租所以可以賣請問一下這個過程裡面有正當性可以嗎當然沒有啊"},{"start":512.182,"end":535.38,"text":"那法院有沒有看到這個他有看到可是他卻用了一個規定規定裡面的條件來套到不當取得財產的定義裡面所以我們認為說如果法院這樣子確定判決就是要告訴社會說不當擋產有兩種一種必須還一種可以不用還這是現在的狀況那我們非常痛心啊因為這三個案件都是這種類型"},{"start":536.241,"end":544.753,"text":"那法院似乎很想在國民黨已經把這個財產賣掉的部分他希望要劃一個紅線要我們不能越過去可是這條紅線"},{"start":546.946,"end":570.847,"text":"是法律裡面沒有的這是法院自己畫出來的所以這點我們就必須說要不斷地跟社會來訴求雖然說案子判決已經確定就好像就如委員剛剛提到的那我們還是要持續地告訴大家我們不希望說我們的法院對於轉型正義的態度是這個樣子它居然可以接受說有一些不當學生是不用還的那我們這個檔案條例等於破產"},{"start":571.881,"end":582.899,"text":"是啦 所以這個講起來是很沉重但是我還是希望我們黨產會在不斷的在這個歷史的脈絡之下找到法理突破的空間這個是要希望主委這邊繼續加油的謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}