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10:15:36","會議時間":"2026-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會部分。二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。三、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款客家委員會及所屬部分。四、審查客家委員會函送財團法人客家公共傳播基金會115年度預算書案。【詢答及處理，所列預算提案於115年5月22日(星期五)中午12時截止收件。】\n【5月27日、28日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":1.36409375,"end":3.22034375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":7.894718750000001,"end":36.58221875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":36.51471875,"end":39.923468750000005,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":40.32846875,"end":45.64409375,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":45.64409375,"end":46.09971875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":46.09971875,"end":46.20096875,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":46.20096875,"end":46.21784375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":46.21784375,"end":48.10784375,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":46.234718750000006,"end":46.875968750000006,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":47.44971875,"end":62.02971875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.72284375,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":54.72284375,"end":54.75659375,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":62.02971875,"end":77.38596875,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":73.92659375000001,"end":74.68596875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":76.86284375000001,"end":80.92971875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":78.21284375,"end":80.91284375000001,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":80.92971875,"end":80.96346875,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":80.96346875,"end":80.98034375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":80.98034375,"end":81.03096875,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":81.03096875,"end":83.02221875000001,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":83.30909375,"end":175.02471875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":175.02471875,"end":175.64909375000002,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":176.30721875,"end":192.50721875000002,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"古主任委員秀妃","start":193.35096875000002,"end":193.97534375,"speaker_score":0.939},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":193.97534375,"end":219.11909375000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":219.20346875,"end":223.37159375000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":221.29596875000001,"end":221.76846875,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":229.51409375,"end":230.00346875000002,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":230.40846875000003,"end":314.32784375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":314.51346875,"end":329.27909375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":329.38034375,"end":338.40846875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":338.66159375,"end":358.60784375000003,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":358.89471875000004,"end":359.90721875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":360.02534375000005,"end":383.16096875000005,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":383.48159375,"end":384.81471875,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":385.55721875,"end":395.07471875000005,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":394.93971875,"end":395.54721875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":395.22659375,"end":398.60159375,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":398.60159375,"end":399.34409375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":398.85471875,"end":399.76596875,"speaker_score":0.945},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員捷","start":399.76596875,"end":400.25534375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林主任委員峯正","start":400.25534375,"en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謝主席 我們先請谷主委"},{"start":8.676,"end":36.413,"text":"好主委早今天两件事情就叫第一个是客家语言发展法的进度那这个其实从2018年就已经修法说要明定这个客家语言发展法那现在也过了八年了那其实2024年的时候我也有问你说这个进度怎么样那现在呢其实还是看到说这个发展法的原版好像还是没有什么进度所以在这边想要请教这个会期到底有没有机会送进来呢"},{"start":36.493,"end":37.914,"text":"那其實就我所知現在提供的最新版本的草案其實大部分都已經收斂許多了"},{"start":54.145,"end":63.29,"text":"那很多有爭議的地方其實要跨部會協調的也差不多找到共識了那差不多應該是要收樓然後可以送進來的階段才對啊我們評估也會這樣但是慎重起見可能還會再召開一次院裡面的協調某問題就會再送過來所以這個會期有沒有機會"},{"start":76.477,"end":94.741,"text":"我們拼拼看我們這個會期很長你拼拼看還有時間好不好好我拼拼看好這個會期拜託你那另外一件事情是剛剛包括巧惠委員跟美惠委員都有提到剛好也是我今天想要詢問的重點就是這個博工照護站因為就我所知原本這個客家社區的門檻是50%那現在已經調降30%了"},{"start":98.342,"end":122.129,"text":"所以呢其實我們高雄包括三明、鳳山、古山有幾個里是符合資格的像是三明就有兩站嘛安東社區、明祥社區、鳳山也有三站那我們古山龍子社區也有一站那這是一個這個降低門檻讓更多社區可以參與我認為很好但是還是有一些里其實客家人口也蠻多的但是不符合資格為什麼因為他們是散居"},{"start":124.029,"end":144.096,"text":"这个就是刚刚几位委员都提到同样的问题就是像我们像我们交委啊这个左营男子其实也有很多客家人我们这里林亚区也有很多客家人像是林亚区就有一万九千两百位客家人口但是他们因为不符合你们那个单一里的门槛因为他们是散的"},{"start":144.756,"end":169.257,"text":"所以其實即便一萬九千位已經是差不多超過三個里的人口了但是他們還是沒辦法申請那我覺得非常非常的可惜所以這邊是不是有機會來調降不只是調降啦就是說這個條件的放寬可以是像剛剛小慧文建議的就是可能以客家社團或者是他們固定有因為他們不一定住在同一個里但是他們可能會在同一個地方聚會"},{"start":169.898,"end":183.65,"text":"那他們一樣是一個群聚的客家人口那我覺得這個都是你們應該要鼓勵的啊嗯 感謝美媛 我想國土美媛都提到這樣的問題啦所以我希望我可以跟我的同事在研究看我們用的那個設計的方向計劃來符合獨私合格的樣態啦"},{"start":193.393,"end":218.78,"text":"好那這個是希望說在這邊也真的要希望說這個條件可以再檢討因為其實客家人口他們群聚的方式可能就不一定是這麼硬性的就所以呢你們這樣其實是會把很多其實散居的人很可惜他們沒有被包含到你們這個可以鼓勵的範圍裡面所以這個是希望在這邊希望谷主委可以讓這個好的政策可以照顧到更多的客家人口"},{"start":219.44,"end":223.783,"text":"好 这边先感谢那我们是接下来请这个领主委委员好"},{"start":230.421,"end":259.238,"text":"好 主委好 在這邊就要請教了因為我覺得當然去年你們歷經了一場浩劫這邊事先覺得說主委整個黨產會很辛苦的地方包括說去年這個黨產業務的處理費被砍了九成那甚至政策宣導費百分之百都被砍了那甚至是很多相關的預算黨產會去年真的是我認為是很辛苦啦對這個台灣的轉型正義來說我覺得都是一大的打擊"},{"start":260.519,"end":284.269,"text":"那我在這邊想要請教的是這個當然不當黨喘的追討是一條非常漫長的路因為世界各國的這種轉型正義其實都是歷經非常非常長的時間才有可能有一點進展那這個是絕對不能放棄而且要非常非常有耐心的我知道說這條路很辛苦但是還是希望說轉型正義的路不能停下來但是呢最近的幾個"},{"start":285.569,"end":291.772,"text":"比較讓人失望的例子是這個3月11號這個中國國民黨的舊的中央黨部那我們黨場會敗訴但是我看一下這個內容其實他有點遺憾的是因為變成是他說形式上有償但是實際上是濫權的這種手法萬一接下來不斷的在類似的訴訟當中出現那會對我們要進行轉型正義有非常大的挑戰"},{"start":314.6,"end":336.866,"text":"就例如說前陣子之前這個大廈大樓的案子他很明顯就是當初特權綁標嘛這個然後之後又出租然後又這個轉售那其實獲利近八億那甚至是還有最近這個國發院的案子也是都是類似的情況就是很明顯都已經是當初的這個國家機器利用特權強佔"},{"start":338.826,"end":358.044,"text":"民間的資產那進行他們個人的獲利那我覺得這種特權的過去的歷史的不正義本來就應該要去扭轉啊但是在法院上面卻因為沒有這個很實質形式上的這個證據導致說我們在面對這一些歷史的不公不義"},{"start":358.965,"end":383.075,"text":"沒有辦法獲得社會的一個公道那我在這邊想要請教的是類似的例子不斷的出現那面對這些敗訴的案子接下來我們黨產會有沒有進一步的作為或者是我們要如何面對讓社會知道說即便法律上沒有還我們公道但是轉型正義的路還是要走下去啊好 謝謝委員的問題"},{"start":386.476,"end":399.694,"text":"剛才提到那三個案子包括國民黨的舊中央黨部還有台北市的大校大樓還有國發院的案子它都是同一個類型也就是說這些財產國民黨都已經把它處分掉了也就是賣掉了"},{"start":401.115,"end":418.84,"text":"針對這一類的財產法院要求我們說要去證明說當初是無償取得或者是險非相當對價取得那它的法律根據我們是非常質疑雖然法院的判決我們必須尊重但我們完全不能認同因為檔管條例第四條有針對不當取得財產"},{"start":420.089,"end":435.448,"text":"做定義那所謂不當取得財產如果被認定之後他應該就是由國家來把他取回 是的 這個是一個我想一個很基本的這個檔案處理條例的原則可是呢這個不當取得財產的定義呢他怎麼說 他說只政黨以"},{"start":437.419,"end":452.559,"text":"違反政黨本質或其他背於民主法制原則之方式為自己或其附隨組織取得財產委員我剛念了這一段裡面有特別提到說一定要是無償或者是買便宜的才是不當取得財產沒有啊"},{"start":453.3,"end":475.494,"text":"也就是說黨黨條例裡面規定的不當取得成本的定義並沒有限制在是無償取得或者寫沒相當對價取得也就是買便宜了也就是他並沒有說是一定要是最用有價錢上的問題才叫不當取得成本還有很多其他的類型包括特權包括強產那就是一個國產那麼中國國民黨中央黨部來台灣之後就近戰近戰就用了"},{"start":482.859,"end":511.214,"text":"過了20年以後他想修他迫不得已去跟國產局講得客氣了在我看來這就是請展對他要修的時候他才去跟國產局去簽了一個借用契約還承諾說兩年要還人家後來也沒有還啊然後到了一定的時候過了他就說那我要租那就稀哩呼呼租給他所以說因為他有租所以可以賣請問一下這個過程裡面有正當性可以嗎當然沒有啊"},{"start":512.182,"end":535.38,"text":"那法院有沒有看到這個他有看到可是他卻用了一個規定規定裡面的條件來套到不當取得財產的定義裡面所以我們認為說如果法院這樣子確定判決就是要告訴社會說不當擋產有兩種一種必須還一種可以不用還這是現在的狀況那我們非常痛心啊因為這三個案件都是這種類型"},{"start":536.241,"end":544.753,"text":"那法院似乎很想在國民黨已經把這個財產賣掉的部分他希望要劃一個紅線要我們不能越過去可是這條紅線"},{"start":546.946,"end":570.847,"text":"是法律裡面沒有的這是法院自己畫出來的所以這點我們就必須說要不斷地跟社會來訴求雖然說案子判決已經確定就好像就如委員剛剛提到的那我們還是要持續地告訴大家我們不希望說我們的法院對於轉型正義的態度是這個樣子它居然可以接受說有一些不當學生是不用還的那我們這個檔案條例等於破產"},{"start":571.881,"end":582.899,"text":"是啦 所以這個講起來是很沉重但是我還是希望我們黨產會在不斷的在這個歷史的脈絡之下找到法理突破的空間這個是要希望主委這邊繼續加油的謝謝好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:05:50.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:05:50.928000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:05:51.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:05:51.958000+08:00","text":"先請古主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:05:51.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:05:58.656000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:05:58.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:05:58.876000+08:00","text":"主委早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:05:59.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:25.393000+08:00","text":"有兩件事情就教，第一個，是客家語言發展法的進度，其實從2018年就已經修法要明定客家語言發展法，現在也過了8年了，在2024年我也有問你進度怎麼樣，現在看到這個發展法的院版，好像還是沒有什麼進度，所以想要請教這個會期到底有沒有機會送進來呢？","quality":0.637},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:25.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:26.393000+08:00","text":"跟黃委員報告，我原先預定這個會期要送進來，但是院裡面還要再討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:26.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:27.393000+08:00","text":"還要再討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:27.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:28.393000+08:00","text":"是，還要再討論，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:25.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:50.289000+08:00","text":"就我所知，現在提供最新版本的草案，其實大部分都已經收斂許多了，很多有爭議的地方要跨部會協調的部分，也差不多找到共識了，應該是到了要收攏，然後可以送進來的階段才對啊。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:50.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:51.950000+08:00","text":"我們的評估還是這樣，但是為了慎重起見，可能還要再召開一次院裡面的協調，沒問題的話就會再送立法院。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:06:51.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:06:52.290000+08:00","text":"所以這個會期有沒有機會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:05.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:06.197000+08:00","text":"我們拚拚看。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:06.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:09.258000+08:00","text":"我們這個會期很長，你還有時間，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:09.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:10.078000+08:00","text":"好，我拚拚看。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:10.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:11.738000+08:00","text":"好，這個會期，拜託你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:12.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:20.620000+08:00","text":"另外一件事情是剛剛包括巧慧委員跟美惠委員都有提到，剛好也是我今天想要詢問的重點，就是關於伯公照護站。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:21.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:39.285000+08:00","text":"就我所知，原本客家社區的門檻是50%，現在已經調降至30%，所以其實我們高雄，包括三民、鳳山、鼓山有幾個里是符合資格的，像是三民就有兩站嘛，安東社區、民享社區；鳳山也有3站；鼓山龍子社區也有1站。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:41.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:50.969000+08:00","text":"這個部分降低門檻，讓更多社區可以參與，我認為很好，但是還是有一些里，其實客家人口也蠻多的，但是不符合資格，為什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:50.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:07:55.650000+08:00","text":"因為他們是散居，這個就是剛剛幾位委員都提到同樣的問題。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:07:56.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:08:25.586000+08:00","text":"就是像我們召委的左營、楠梓，其實也有很多客家人，苓雅區也有很多客家人，像是苓雅區就有1萬9,200位客家人口，但是因為不符合單一里的門檻，他們是散居的，所以即便是一萬九千多位，已經差不多超過三個里的人口了，但是他們還是沒辦法申請，我覺得非常非常地可惜，所以是不是有機會調降？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:08:25.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:08:26.808000+08:00","text":"不只是調降啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:08:26.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:08:44.423000+08:00","text":"就是條件的放寬，可以像剛剛巧慧委員建議的，可能是以客家社團或者是他們固定有……因為他們不一定住在同一個里，但是可能會在同一個地方聚會，他們一樣是一個群聚的客家人口，我覺得這個都是你們應該要鼓勵的啊！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:08:45.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:08:52.629000+08:00","text":"感謝委員，我想各個委員都提到這樣的問題，所以會後我會跟同仁們再來研究，如何來設計這個方向的計畫以符合都市客家的樣態。","quality":0.537},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:02.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:09:27.760000+08:00","text":"好，真的希望這個條件可以再檢討，因為客家人口群聚的方式，可能不一定是這麼硬性，所以你們這樣的規定，其實很可惜地，很多散居的人會沒有被包含到鼓勵的範圍裡面，希望古主委可以讓這個好的政策照顧到更多的客家人口。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:28.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:09:29.281000+08:00","text":"好，這邊先感謝。感謝。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:30.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:09:32.122000+08:00","text":"接下來請林主委。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:32.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:09:39.421000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:39.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:09:39.901000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:09:40.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:10:08.238000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要請教，當然去年你們歷經了一場浩劫，整個黨產會很辛苦的地方，包括去年黨產業務處理費被砍了九成，政策宣導費百分之百都被砍了，甚至包括很多相關的預算，我認為黨產會在去年真的是很辛苦啦，對臺灣的轉型正義來說，我覺得都是一大打擊。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:10:09.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:10:32.288000+08:00","text":"我在這邊想要請教的是，當然不當黨產的追討是一條非常漫長的路，因為世界各國的轉型正義，其實都是歷經非常非常長的時間，才可能有一點進展，這個是絕對不能放棄，要非常非常有耐心，我知道這條路很辛苦，但還是希望轉型正義的路不能停下來。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:10:32.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:10:40.772000+08:00","text":"但是，最近幾個比較讓人失望的是3月11日中國國民黨舊中央黨部的案子，黨產會敗訴嘛，我看了一下內容，其實有點遺憾的是，因為變成形式上有償，但是實際上是濫權的手法，萬一接下來不斷地在類似的訴訟當中出現，會對我們要進行的轉型正義有非常大的挑戰。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:11:03.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:11:11.062000+08:00","text":"就例如前陣子大孝大樓的案子，很明顯就是當初特權綁標嘛！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:11:12.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:11:31.069000+08:00","text":"之後又出租，然後又轉售，獲利近8億，甚至還有最近國發院的案子，也是都是類似的情況，很明顯就是當初國家機器利用特權強占民間的資產，進行他們個人的獲利。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:11:31.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:11:37.255000+08:00","text":"我覺得這種特權在過去歷史的不正義，本來就應該要去扭轉啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:11:37.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:11:51.206000+08:00","text":"但是在法院上面，卻因為沒有實質形式上的證據，導致在面對這一些歷史的不公不義，卻沒有辦法獲得社會的公道。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:11:52.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:05.332000+08:00","text":"我在這邊想要請教的是，類似的例子不斷地出現，面對這些敗訴的案子，接下來黨產會有沒有進一步的作為或者是要如何面對？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:05.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:11.915000+08:00","text":"讓社會知道即便法律上沒有還我們公道，但是轉型正義的路還是要走下去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:12.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:27.432000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的問題，剛才提到那三個案子，包括國民黨的舊中央黨部、臺北市的大孝大樓還有國發院的案子，都是同一個類型，也就是這些財產國民黨都已經處分掉了。沒錯。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:27.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:28.474000+08:00","text":"也就是賣掉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:30.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:50.471000+08:00","text":"針對這一類的財產，法院要求我們去證明當初是無償取得或者是顯非相當對價取得，他的法律根據我們是非常質疑，雖然法院的判決我們必須尊重，但完全不能認同，因為黨產條例第四條有針對不當取得財產做定義。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:50.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:12:55.217000+08:00","text":"所謂不當取得財產，如果被認定之後，應該就是由國家來取回。是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:12:55.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:14.049000+08:00","text":"我想這是一個很基本的黨產處理條例的原則，可是不當取得財產的定義是指政黨以違反政黨本質或其他悖於民主法治原則之方式，為自己或其附隨組織取得財產。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:14.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:21.139000+08:00","text":"委員，我剛剛唸的這一段裡面有特別提到一定要無償或者是買便宜的，才是不當取得財產嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:21.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:21.539000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:22.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:41.653000+08:00","text":"也就是黨產條例規定的不當取得財產的定義，並沒有限制在是無償取得或者顯非相當對價取得，也就是買便宜的，並沒有說一定要用有價錢上的問題，才叫不當取得財產，還有很多其他的類型，譬如……","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:41.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:42.853000+08:00","text":"包括特權、包括強占。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:42.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:43.033000+08:00","text":"舊中央黨部就是一個國產……是啊！","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:43.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:56.922000+08:00","text":"中國國民黨的中央黨部是來臺灣之後就進占使用了，過了20年以後他想修，迫不得已去跟國產局……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:13:57.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:13:58.663000+08:00","text":"你講得客氣了，在我看來，這就是侵占。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:01.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:16.352000+08:00","text":"對，它要修的時候才跟國產局簽了一個借用契約，還承諾兩年要還人家，後來也沒有還，然後過了一定期間，他說要租就又稀里呼嚕租給他，最後說因為他有租，所以可以買。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:16.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:19.733000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這個過程裡面有正當性可言嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:19.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:20.194000+08:00","text":"當然沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:21.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:22.903000+08:00","text":"法院有沒有看到這個部分？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:22.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:29.709000+08:00","text":"他有看到，可是卻用了一個推定規定裡面的條件，來套到不當取得財產的定義。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:30.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:40.277000+08:00","text":"所以我們認為法院這樣子的確定判決，就是在告訴社會說不當黨產有兩種：一種必須還、一種可以不用還。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:40.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:14:42.719000+08:00","text":"這就是現在的狀況，我們非常痛心啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:14:42.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:15:02.312000+08:00","text":"因為這三個案件都是這種類型，法院似乎很想在國民黨已經賣掉財產的部分，它希望畫一個紅線，要我們不能越過去，可是這條紅線是法律裡面沒有的，這是法院自己畫出來的，所以這一點我們就必須要不斷地跟社會來訴求。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:15:03.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:15:21.022000+08:00","text":"雖然案子已經判決確定，就如委員剛剛提到的，但我們還是要持續地告訴大家，我們不希望我們的法院對於轉型正義的態度是這個樣子，它居然可以接受有一些不當取得財產是不用還的，那我們這個黨產條例等於破產。是啦！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-05-28T10:15:22.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:15:31.899000+08:00","text":"這個講起來很沉重，但還是希望你們黨產會不斷地在歷史脈絡之下，找到法理突破的空間，希望主委這邊繼續加油。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:15:32.399000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:15:34.113286+08:00","text":"謝謝黃捷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:15:34.413286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:15:36.984714+08:00","text":"接下來請廖先翔召委。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}