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主委讓你說明清楚"},{"start":109.33,"end":136.628,"text":"我們當然是希望說終結黨產會的前提是所有不當取得的財產只要我們清查得到的在法治的方式之下我們能夠取回這樣給社會大眾一個好的示範未來執政的人不可以隨隨便便把國家的財物納為己有納為己用其實這是真正的目的但是法院在審理的過程裡面譬如說他審一個婦聯會是否負責組織他審了五年"},{"start":139.65,"end":153.601,"text":"救國團是不是國民黨的負稅組織他省了四年像這樣的比比皆是而且他在剛開始的時候又想辦法去釋憲這樣又拖了兩三年所以拖延其實不是我們願意我也不希望把時間耗在這裡"},{"start":154.662,"end":169.414,"text":"但是我們有這個責任把這個真相告訴大家譬如說有的案子拖了那麼多年之後還判敗訴敗訴理由是什麼我剛才跟黃婕委員說明的過程裡面詳細要花兩分鐘把它講清楚因為法院用了一個黨產條例的不當學財產定義理論沒有的條件"},{"start":172.737,"end":188.439,"text":"來判我敗訴這個當然非常不服氣啊但是還是法院我們要尊重但是我必須要藉這個機會也跟社會大眾報告也跟我們報告跟國會來報告就是說我們不希望說原來不當取得財產有分兩類一種可以一種要還一種不要還"},{"start":190.821,"end":211.23,"text":"當初你告訴的對象還是中國國民黨的時候這個可能拿得回來那如果當初告訴的對象他已經轉給其他的單位或賣給其他單位的時候有可能就拿不回來因為過去從事司法改革我們很希望法院能夠得到這個信賴你要舉證這個現金到底價值多少錢法院對這個就沒有辦法讓你舉證沒有辦法同意所以才敗訴對不對"},{"start":212.506,"end":230.844,"text":"就是說他還有很多特權的方式不是只有說沒有錢就拿走或者是說買很便宜的價錢就像黨部那個過程就是占了嘛占了然後又借承諾要還又不還然後最後稀釐乎乎租然後稀釐乎乎買了買了之後蓋成新聞之後賣掉賺錢"},{"start":232.967,"end":252.997,"text":"那這樣子不能要求他拿回來嗎法院就是判說到底賺了多少錢法院說當初他有買所以這個不是不當取得財產你不能把他取回這是我覺得這個是有點疑惑性但是要把這些事情但是我們還是要堅持下去啊對好 謝謝 謝謝主委來 請谷主委請谷主委召委"},{"start":259.486,"end":275.792,"text":"謝謝谷主委,我很仔細的聽了你今年口頭的報告裡面包含幾個預算我非常關心包含第二項裡面客家、客庄區域發展、生活環境營造計畫、客家綠色產業永創"},{"start":284.715,"end":291.54,"text":"發展計畫打造永續共好地方創生計畫裡面比去年度的預算減列6億4877萬約54%的原因是什麼"},{"start":300.604,"end":321.892,"text":"要主要財化法的關係財化法所以原本補助地方可能變成地方要自籌那我請問主委地方會不會支持地方的客委會讓他們有提高這個我舉例比如說台北市政府他突然多拿了400多億他第一件事情去補助營養午餐"},{"start":323.427,"end":343.966,"text":"那會不會有可能是排擠掉這個可能做這些地方創新的這些預算我們簡列那麼多那地方政府的客戶會有沒有辦法依這個比例拿到地方政府的預算童昭的報告就我所了解其實沒有"},{"start":344.907,"end":362.207,"text":"地方的客家單位沒有增加預算對所以財源下去了我們不得不減少了財務法的關係我們不得不減少了但是地方對於推動客家這個環境再造的部分其實是沒有辦法增加的這是第一點第二個"},{"start":363.508,"end":378.759,"text":"語言方面我們去年度比我們今年度編列五億一千七百七十萬比去年度減列一億七千九百五十八萬減列百分之二十五一樣的道理我也請問你主委請問這是怎麼回事"},{"start":382.979,"end":404.671,"text":"也是裁劃法的關係那一樣也是在補助地方政府那地方政府的這個客委會有沒有辦法跟地方政府爭取到一樣比例的補助的預算土民院報告就我所知道也是沒有所以很憂心語言的附贈會少了很大的力道"},{"start":405.751,"end":412.664,"text":"所以我們非常遺憾,那也希望柯爾會再跟行政院爭取這個可能接下來明年度就有110"},{"start":414.615,"end":427.638,"text":"接下來明年度的116年度的預算可能再過幾個月也要進來了希望課委會這邊可以跟行政院爭取到多一點預算你今年度從去年度的40億變成35億9不到36億一共少了快4億多的預算少了5億8的預算"},{"start":438.885,"end":453.892,"text":"我們知道這大多數是補助地方政府的但是地方政府的客委會他並拿不到地方政府的同額的這些補助啦所以相對對客家文化、客家語言還有客家鄉親等等是剝削的啦"},{"start":454.312,"end":481.158,"text":"那我覺得這件事情還是要跟全國民眾來說清楚另外大家都提出的這個博工造戶站的申請條件我這邊有一個具體的建議就是市區六都很多的這個像我們都是散居的客家鄉親我的選區啊左營就非常多18%的比例他有非常非常多的但是我們沒有辦個博工造戶站我覺得博工造戶站的這個"},{"start":484.097,"end":509.162,"text":"規定啦就是說你這個社區人口要百分之三十然後這個服務的長輩要有二分之一是說客語那我覺得是不是試試看能不能調降之外呢我會建議一個推動有特色的都會區的博工造戶站這個是可以適行的比如說我這個造服員他是有這個客語認證的資格的那我們是不是可以左語來"},{"start":510.542,"end":536.136,"text":"加給他因為這個地方他可能就會有少數的這些客家長輩他來到這裡就覺得很親切那這裡是一個很有特色的這個博工造戶站那博工造戶站的預算我們等一下在省列的時候我們也會給予高度的支持之外呢那也希望諸位把接下來不能做到的事情等一下也可以因為預算減少那可能會少做的事情等一下有清楚的來表達好感謝李議員好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:37:34.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:37:34.861000+08:00","text":"有請林主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:37:35.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:37:37.722000+08:00","text":"我們請林主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:37:37.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:37:39.063000+08:00","text":"剛才的話還沒有講完，讓你講完。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:37:42.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:37:58.604000+08:00","text":"其實我在今年3月剛開始排這個會期議程的時候，第一個就想找你來，會想要找你來的原因是3月11號國民黨中央黨部的黨產宣判，判決確定。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:38:00.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:38:49.288000+08:00","text":"當時因為我們都還沒有收到相關的判決書內容，所以當時沒有辦法讓你說明得很清楚，我想今天社會大眾也很好奇，你剛才對其他委員其實也有說明得很清楚，判決書是因為與金額、當初的對象，還有對價的內容相關，但是黨產會以及黨產條例存在的目的，其實是為了因應當時的時空背景，即當時中國國民黨怎麼樣把臺灣的土地、建物等資產變成自己的黨產或轉售，甚至轉給其他的附隨組織等等，所以黨產會今天才有存在的必要。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:38:51.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:38:57.452000+08:00","text":"這些已一一清查出來，之後還有一些訴訟，你現在能拍拍屁股走人嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:38:57.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:39:19.340000+08:00","text":"我還是希望你忍辱負重將這些事情釐清，我支持你當初所說，你希望有一天把黨產會結束掉，是因為把國家當時被侵占的財產一一做整理並跟社會大眾說明清楚。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:39:19.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:39:20.722000+08:00","text":"來，主委讓你說明清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:39:21.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:39:43.125000+08:00","text":"我們當然希望終結黨產會的前提是，只要是我們清查得到所有不當取得的財產，在法制的方式下能夠取回，這樣能給社會大眾一個好的示範，也就是未來執政者不可以這樣隨隨便便把國家的財物納為己有、納為己用，其實這是真正的目的。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:39:43.125000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:39:44.125000+08:00","text":"關於敗訴的內容，請委員說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:39:44.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:40:13.688000+08:00","text":"法院在審理的過程中，譬如審婦聯會是不是附隨組織就審了5年，救國團是不是國民黨附隨組織也審了4年，像這樣的情形比比皆是，而且在剛開始的時候又想辦法聲請釋憲，這樣又拖了兩、三年，所以其實不是我們願意拖延，我也不希望把時間耗在這裡，但是我們有責任將真相告訴大家，譬如有的案子拖了那麼多年之後還判敗訴，敗訴理由是什麼？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:40:13.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:40:28.262000+08:00","text":"我剛才跟黃捷委員大概花了2分鐘把它講清楚，因為法院用了一個黨產條例不當取得財產定義裡面沒有的條件判我敗訴，我當然非常不服氣，但是我們要尊重法院。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:40:28.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:40:40.439000+08:00","text":"我必須要藉這個機會跟社會大眾及國會的委員們報告，我們不希望原來不當取得財產有分兩類：一種要還、一種不用還，請問不當取得財產到底是什麼？","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:40:42.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:40:52.645000+08:00","text":"當初你告訴的對象是中國國民黨可能拿得回來，若告訴的對象已經轉給其他的單位或賣給其他單位，可能就拿不回來了。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:40:52.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:40:56.287000+08:00","text":"因為我過去從事司法改革，我很希望法院能夠得到社會的信賴。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:40:56.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:03.230000+08:00","text":"因為已經變成現金了，你要舉證到底價值多少現金，但你沒有辦法舉證，法院也無法同意，所以才敗訴對不對？","quality":0.614},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:05.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:27.348000+08:00","text":"因為他還有很多特權的方式，不只是沒有錢就拿走資產或者是用很便宜的價錢買，像中央黨部最後取得的過程就是占了又借，承諾要還又不還，後來稀哩呼嚕的租，再稀哩呼嚕的買，買了之後蓋成新建物再賣掉賺錢，這樣子不能要求他拿回來嗎？","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:28.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:29.509000+08:00","text":"對，到底賺了多少錢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:29.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:30.509000+08:00","text":"法院就是判到底賺了多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:30.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:31.509000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法舉證？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:29.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:33.871000+08:00","text":"法院說當初他有買，所以不是不當取得財產，因此不能取回。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林主任委員峯正","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:35.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:40.054000+08:00","text":"我覺得這件事情很痛心，但是我們還是要堅持下去。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:40.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:41.054000+08:00","text":"雖然很遺憾，但是要把這些事情說明清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:41.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:42.055000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:42.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:42.736000+08:00","text":"請古主委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:42.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:43.076000+08:00","text":"請古主委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:44.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:44.977000+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:51.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:41:51.746000+08:00","text":"謝謝古主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:41:52.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:42:23.540000+08:00","text":"我仔細聽了你今年的口頭報告，我非常關心其中包含的幾項預算，包含第二項的客庄區域發展生活環境營造計畫、客家綠色產業永創發展計畫，有關打造永續共好地方創生計畫比去年度的預算減列6億4,877萬，約54%的原因是什麼？","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:42:32.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:42:35.265000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，主要是財劃法的關係。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:42:35.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:42:40.287000+08:00","text":"財劃法，所以原本補助地方的部分可能變成地方要自籌嘛。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:42:41.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:01.553000+08:00","text":"請問主委，地方會不會支持地方的客家單位讓他們提高……我舉例，比如臺北市政府突然多拿了四百多億，他第一件事情是補助營養午餐，會不會有可能排擠這些地方創新的預算？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:02.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:09.040000+08:00","text":"主委，我們減列那麼多，客委會有沒有辦法依這個比例拿到地方政府的預算？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:11.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:21.032000+08:00","text":"向召委報告，就我所了解，其實地方的客家單位沒有增加預算。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:21.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:34.027000+08:00","text":"對，因為財劃法的關係，所以財源下去地方了，我們不得不減少，但是其實地方對於推動客家環境再造的部分沒有辦法增加預算，這是第一點。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:34.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:46.156000+08:00","text":"第二，在語言方面今年度編列5億1,770萬，比去年度減列1億7,958萬，減少25%。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:47.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:50.739000+08:00","text":"一樣的道理，請問主委這是怎麼回事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:50.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:43:54.979000+08:00","text":"一樣是因為財劃法而減少。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:43:54.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:44:07.026000+08:00","text":"好，也是財劃法的關係，一樣也是補助地方政府，地方政府的客委會有沒有辦法跟地方政府爭取到一樣比例的補助預算？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:44:08.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:44:16.651000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，就我所知也是沒有辦法，我們很憂心語言的復振會少了很大的力道。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:44:17.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:44:39.218000+08:00","text":"所以我們非常遺憾，也希望客委會再跟行政院爭取，接下來明（116）年度的預算可能再過幾個月也要送進來了，希望客委會可以跟行政院爭取多一點預算，從去年度的40億變成三十五億九，不到36億，一共少了四億多的預算。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:44:39.218000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:44:40.218000+08:00","text":"五億八。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:44:39.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:45:10.493000+08:00","text":"少了五億八的預算，我們知道大多數是補助地方政府的，但是地方政府的客委會並拿不到與地方政府同額的補助，所以相對對客家文化、客家語言，還有客家鄉親等等是剝削的，我覺得這件事情還是要跟全國民眾說清楚。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:45:10.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:02.962000+08:00","text":"另外，大家都提出伯公照護站的申請條件，我這邊有一個具體建議，市區、六都有很多散居的客家鄉親，像我的選區左營就非常多，比例占18%，但是我們沒有半個伯公照護站，而且伯公照護站的規定是，社區客家人口要30%，服務的長輩要有二分之一說客語，我覺得除了試試看能不能調降之外，我也建議推動有特色的都會區的伯公照護站，這個是可以試行的，比如說，照服員是有客語認證資格的，那我們是不是可以酌予加給他？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2026-05-28T10:46:03.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:27.896000+08:00","text":"因為可能會有少數的客家長輩來到這個地方，就覺得很親切，那這個是一個很有特色的伯公照護站，伯公照護站的預算等一下在審議的時候我們除了會給予高度的支持之外，也希望主委把因為預算減少而不能做到的事情、可能會少做的事情，等一下要清楚的來表達。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"古主任委員秀妃","start":"2026-05-28T10:46:27.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:28.116000+08:00","text":"好，感謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:46:28.616000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:31.187429+08:00","text":"謝謝李柏毅召委質詢。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:46:31.487429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:34.916000+08:00","text":"請邱鎮軍、邱鎮軍，邱鎮軍不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T10:46:35.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T10:46:37.501714+08:00","text":"請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}