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法務部衛福部以及經濟部完整看完之後我必須很務實的說勞動部的報告最爛"},{"start":2062.114,"end":2075.924,"text":"為什麼爛到現在為止我們已經討論了幾年了還在跟我們講說要質疑藍綠白委員黨團從第九屆第十屆開始講說要外送專法"},{"start":2077.129,"end":2101.778,"text":"結果勞動部到現在拿出來的東西是講說明年1月會有公開的指引請大家再等待那不就是過去因為有指引但是一直沒有辦法完整的保障不管是外送員 不管是消費者不管是餐廳的權益也因此我們才會考慮提升為專法嗎我想請教 在場執政黨的委員能夠接受這樣子搪塞的態度消極的態度嗎"},{"start":2103.274,"end":2114.45,"text":"我們在討論專法你還在講質疑我們都已經5G上網了你還在講撥接你那邊還來得及啊記得all in台積電再者"},{"start":2116.072,"end":2140.732,"text":"外送員因為已經超過15萬人有別其他行業也因此我們想的是它跟過去傳統的勞基法僱傭關係也有可能或多或少不同這是世界各國趨勢我們也理解但它絕對不是一個派遣工作也因此怎麼樣在派遣跟僱傭中間我們找到一個新的平衡點這就是我們今天討論的目標而這不是今天還提出來的"},{"start":2142.096,"end":2156.265,"text":"第十屆的時候我就很務實的提出相關的專法當時國民黨團 時代力量民眾黨團 民進黨團也都有相對應的版本現在更友商的黨團也提出版本但我們要問行政院的版本在哪裡"},{"start":2158.915,"end":2184.251,"text":"內容我就不贅述了因為我們等一下都還有很多的質詢的時間來討論但我真的只想講如果只想要以拖待變人民都會看在眼裡我肯定交通部 我肯定法務部我肯定衛福部至少你有針對個別條文裡面提出你們的意見 專業以及認為可行或不可行"},{"start":2185.131,"end":2193.288,"text":"但從頭到尾應該是主管機關的勞動部沒有針對任何一個條文有任何的意見"},{"start":2196.653,"end":2221.706,"text":"我的時間兩分鐘到了我一定會回來再跟大家繼續討論我們也真的感謝召委排案我們希望在這個會期裡面如果行政院這種消極的態度的話行政院不走我們立法院先走我們呼籲民進黨民眾黨團一起共同為我們消費者外送員以及餐廳來努力我們不是要"},{"start":2222.566,"end":2249.218,"text":"打壓外送平台而是過去一強三弱的狀況我們希望能夠變成是四足鼎立外送平台消費者餐廳以及外送員四個方面都能夠均衡的獲得權益最後請中華民國的官員們記得不要讓外界覺得中華民國是一個"},{"start":2251.737,"end":2258.062,"text":"勞權點不到 過勞點得到的地方謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員說明請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明"},{"start":2268.161,"end":2290.678,"text":"謝謝昭偉各位委員和媒體先進以及外送員夥伴們我想先還是要感謝廖偉強昭偉能夠今天願意排審這個法案這個法案在我們的創黨主席柯文哲在競選總統的時候就是非常重要的優先法案而且我們在每一個會期都提出了這個法案民眾黨事實上在上一個"},{"start":2291.539,"end":2321.139,"text":"上一屆的時候就有賴香林委員提出了外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案那這一屆我們在第一個會期也提出了這樣一個法案但是這麼重要法案我們卻是也很高興在這第四會期有機會送審到委員會來審查所以再次感謝這個廖兆偉那擔任立委以來最常受到外送員夥伴他們的懲情 這重點就是平台不斷的減薪"},{"start":2322.56,"end":2348.9,"text":"導致非常非特定的熱門商圈的外送員他們的事實上換算下來的這個薪資低於基本的時薪如果再加上油資啦機車的一些保養跟折舊常常都是做白工那另外也有很多外送夥伴他跟我們反應遇到任何問題只要向平台申訴的話永遠只得到罐頭訊息就是制式的回應那"},{"start":2350.606,"end":2368.708,"text":"申訴制度完全無效那明明沒有違反規定可是可能遭到惡意檢舉那這個外送平台他又不去查證所以直接被停權了那讓外送員的生計受到影響那也能自己承受完全沒有其他的這個救濟方式"},{"start":2369.409,"end":2385.219,"text":"那本黨團召開多次的公聽會有聽取各方的意見也私下請益許多外送員他們在面臨實際的時候所遭遇的困境那綜合各方意見之後本黨團提出的這個法案的重點有幾個包含這個接單費"},{"start":2387.623,"end":2414.14,"text":"計算方式要由外送平台同業工會以及相關的工會來共同擬定其中基本費不得低於基本的工資三分之一那業界平台也必須有申訴制度讓外送人能夠針對停權 違規報酬等有申訴管道那這個大家關心的勞僱關係我們主張的是僱傭跟廢僱用雙軌制在這個有工時彈性的同時也能夠有勞動權跟相關保險的保障"},{"start":2414.58,"end":2423.734,"text":"好 那我們希望未來在逐條審查的時候大家能夠理性討論創造一個三贏 算送員 外送平台還有消費者的權益好 謝謝 謝謝教委 謝謝大家謝謝陳教資委員說明請羅廷偉委員說明"},{"start":2438.203,"end":2467.342,"text":"好謝謝主席今天排審我想我們真的等了很久也等了將近一年多那我們在去年呢就已經提案但是外送員卻等了數年我要說的是外送服務已經融入了現代的生活我想我自己跟在座的許多我們現場的大家應該都有是外送平台的重度使用者"},{"start":2468.343,"end":2490.893,"text":"消費者透過這樣的數位平台下單在短時間獲得餐飲的服務便捷的服務作為這類平台的經濟核心的勞動者外送員我們可以看到他們對於整個勞權對於整個長期的規範不足造成他的報酬不穩定工作風險過高勞動保障明顯不足"},{"start":2495.675,"end":2504.387,"text":"目前勞動部雖定有所謂的相關指引雖然顧及了外送過程中的職業安全但對外送員"},{"start":2506.231,"end":2526.505,"text":"勞動的權益保障是非常有限的隨著外送產業擴張外送人員已經超過了14萬人但是我們看到光光指引夠嗎現在要我們再等到明年1月你相信那個指引會對於整個外送員的權益有所保障嗎對不起我不相信"},{"start":2527.486,"end":2547.431,"text":"所以我們還是要再一次的譴責勞動部等了這麼多年勞動部完全沒有醒過來上一次何佩珊部長說她個人的立場是支持但是到現在我們也沒看到勞動部有任何的動作甚至要我們等待的是指引"},{"start":2548.231,"end":2569.223,"text":"院版不出來勞動部沒有態度到現在三個黨團都提出了各自的版本我自己在去年也提出了自己的提案很可惜我們沒有看到院版而現在我們要說的是高風險低保障我們不斷的接到外送員一直不斷的澄清相關的澄清平台"},{"start":2570.483,"end":2597.252,"text":"再說亂砍報仇任意停權甚至沒有理由就終止合約也不給外送員有任何申訴救濟的管道讓外送員求助無門你可以想像在21世紀在台灣在現在我們還可以遇到這樣子的一個勞動者竟然完全沒有地方可以申訴我自己就接到啊他收到一單要送到火車站突然簡訊告訴他"},{"start":2599.144,"end":2615.783,"text":"不用送來了我趕不上火車這杯請你喝他完全不知道該怎麼辦跟平台回報沒有人要結單最後呢過了三天他被停權了他真的莫名其妙"},{"start":2617.011,"end":2639.579,"text":"他照著指示送到火車站照著指示沒人要接單最後他被停權我幫他開了一個記者會最後才幫他恢復他完全沒得申訴啊所以不要再拿說什麼怕他們漲價或者是怎麼樣的理由來恐嚇立法委員不要去立法我們要創造的是市民"},{"start":2640.439,"end":2664.179,"text":"平台不能只有你贏消費者要贏我們的店家要贏外送員要贏所以在這一次我們透過法律明定的報酬申訴救濟管道確保外送員不要因為演算法被剝奪這才是制定我們現在的專法最重要的根本目的保障外送員的尊嚴保障他們的權益不要再被演算法來決定他的人生謝謝"},{"start":2667.318,"end":2670.214,"text":"謝謝羅廷威委員說明請王育銘委員說明"},{"start":2678.726,"end":2704.413,"text":"謝謝主席我要特別感謝我們廖偉祥召委這個很快的排定這一次有關於外送人員從業人員的權益保障法那這部法呢事實上提案的委員都幾乎是去年就已經提案了那現在終於可以正式上路但是真的很遺憾我們看到到目前為止行政院勞動部是沒有任何的版本"},{"start":2705.353,"end":2728.744,"text":"都是這個國民黨委員的版本跟民眾黨黨團的版本那這個代表這個國民黨是非常重視這一些相關人員的權益因為當我們在享受這一些你可以點外賣你不用風吹雨淋的時候這一些便利的時候那你要想的這些外送人員的辛苦他的權益到底有沒有得到基本的保障"},{"start":2729.204,"end":2738.716,"text":"而現在我們看到現在存在三大問題第一個就是他們的薪資被任意調降成為待宰羔羊他完全是權力不對等喔"},{"start":2739.181,"end":2763.138,"text":"那第二個是他的保險保障不足用生命在拼搏就是我們相關的沒有專法的情況底下他的這些保險其實都沒有明確化第三個是他沒有在勞基法的保障之內所以他的權益是不對等的很容易被架空為了解決這些的問題呢所以我們提出來的這個專法第一個"},{"start":2763.758,"end":2787.806,"text":"一定是保障基本收入就是不能任人宰割接單費的標準跟計算方式要由平台公會跟相關公會共同擬定再也不能由平台說了算現在平台呈現的就是有權無責這樣的一個情況應該要修正第二個是強制納保提供完整的職業安全的保障"},{"start":2788.246,"end":2802.885,"text":"那這個也是應該要提供的第三個契約中止應該要有規範必須在30天以前預告不會像剛剛羅廷惠委員所說的就是短短幾個小時幾天之內他的工作權就不見了"},{"start":2803.726,"end":2818.783,"text":"而且也沒有申訴機制我們要避免任意停權傷害他們工作權的情況發生最後發生實災事故的時候平台應該要在8小時之內通報然後也另外一方面要求平台要保留消費電池紀錄"},{"start":2820.345,"end":2839.918,"text":"一年以上維持消費者的權益我們希望透過今天委員會的排案審查我們積極加速通過這樣的一個保障專法讓我們廣大的15萬的外送員更有保障以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員說明請王宏威委員說明"},{"start":2848.015,"end":2872.239,"text":"好 谢谢主席首先感谢我们的召委廖伟祥委员很快速的能够排定这个其实跟外送员其实已经等了非常久的一个保障的法案那事实上Full Panda在民国101年就进入了台湾市场那另外一家比较大的Uber Eats也是在105年进入台湾市场"},{"start":2872.839,"end":2891.982,"text":"所以事實上呢對我們外送員的保障來說我們的法律的缺乏已經長達13年之久已經長達13年之久所以不要再扭步話了那我希望呢也在我們這個會期能夠盡速加速的能夠通過相關的法律"},{"start":2892.823,"end":2914.075,"text":"另外也要跟大家報告事實上有關於外送平台的管理還有外送平台從業人員的保障我剛才講已經長達13年那麼在地方縣市政府在目前包含台北市跟台南市都有相關的自治條例"},{"start":2914.875,"end":2936.318,"text":"那麼就是因為我們中央沒有法啊一直在踢皮球在這樣的狀況之下那麼包含比如說像台南市他們也有這個相關的自治條例當他要處分處罰業者的時候比如說他沒有該做強制保險他沒有做結果最後呢市政府敗訴"},{"start":2937.999,"end":2965.649,"text":"為什麼敗訴呢因為說抵觸中央法令中央沒有相關的法令與保障那所以也就是即便是地方政府有意而且也聽聽制製條例來保障我們外送平台相關從業人員的他們的相關的權益可是因為中央立法的怠惰所以沒有辦法來做保障所以我在這邊呢也跟大家來報告"},{"start":2967.71,"end":2985.852,"text":"我個人在第二會期本屆第二會期就是去年的時候就提出了這個草案那麼現在來看我們現在非常多的這個在野黨的委員還有黨團都有提出法案那麼我也發現在昨天民進黨團"},{"start":2987.653,"end":3008.384,"text":"終於有一個比較好的回應也願意來做立法所以我們會希望我們的勞動部還有我們行政院相關的主管機關能夠加速腳步我想從業人員等了13年那麼我覺得現在應該是我們對他有一個具體回應的時候以上 謝謝謝謝王宏威委員說明"},{"start":3013.513,"end":3014.937,"text":"那接下來請勞動部紅部長說明時間8分鐘"},{"start":3026.829,"end":3044.672,"text":"主席各位委員先進然後包括現場的媒體朋友那很謝謝這個貴委員會的邀請那由本人來向各位進行這個外送平台管理及從業人員管理權益保障法的草案相關報告那希望大家不吝指教那"},{"start":3046.004,"end":3056.578,"text":"近年台灣的外送平台的新興經濟體模式迅速的興起那陸續的發展改變大家的消費的型態那其實這也成為一個非常非常重要的課題"},{"start":3057.765,"end":3085.513,"text":"那勞務部其實一直是很關心外送員的保障的權益 那我們當然現在其實透過了相關行政的指引的方式 那要求僱主那要辦理安全衛生的教育訓練 落實安全衛生防護措施 還有訂定危害防治計劃來協助落實交通事故的預防和處理 還有熱危害預防等等管理作為 並且提高指引的效力 那"},{"start":3088.165,"end":3114.222,"text":"這個職業安全衛生法的修正草案已在今年的8月28由行政院送到立法院來審議那其中增訂了50條之一也就是要求外送平台業者應該落實外送員的作業危害預防及身心健康保護措施那本部其實也透過定期的勞檢機構對外送平台實施稽查那跟交通部跨部會的合作實施聯合的稽查要求業者落實強化外送員的作業安全"},{"start":3115.56,"end":3137.025,"text":"那為了增進外送員的權益保障減輕外送員的負擔所以外送作業安全衛生指引也要求外送平台要為外送員投保團體傷害保險那以及投保第三責任第三人責任保險那目前兩家的主要業者那也已經為所屬外送員提供第三人責任保險"},{"start":3138.206,"end":3153.844,"text":"那也為了完善爭議協處的措施本部也運用行政協調的機制來請各地方主管機關因受理外送員的和外送平台爭議案件並積極主動的協調等協處措施促使個案有效的"},{"start":3154.574,"end":3178.497,"text":"解決那我們了解外送員其實長期他所關注的幾個權益事項包括報酬的計算不夠透明是外送員無法驗算每個單他報酬的定價是否合理還有停權是有不夠透明隨時可能會影響外送員線上接單的權益還有平台具有強勢的訂閱能力常常未經外送員的同一片面的變更報酬計算的重要的"},{"start":3179.097,"end":3203.888,"text":"契約的內容此外外送員的商業保險和社會保險權益也受到外送員有關工會的詬病那因此那為了強化外送員的權益那目前政府的團隊已經透過交包括交通部經濟部衛福部數位部以及本部跨部會合作接下來會由這個交通部來統籌整合型的這個經營管理的指引"},{"start":3204.808,"end":3225.981,"text":"那但是對於今天大院其實大家都草原委員都非常非常關注的專法的議題我想我在這邊可以很清楚的表達其實在這幾個月那我們對於剛剛在講到包括報酬的問題包括停權的問題包括契約的問題那甚至也包括相關保險的問題其實我們這幾個月其實"},{"start":3228.922,"end":3256.449,"text":"在舞蹈部裡面以後我們也做了幾輪的檢討那在檢討裡面我們也同意我們也認為其實應該朝法制化的方向來處理這個所謂的法制化當然意思就是定專法所以我們其實在這幾個月裡面也很積極的跟相關的工會外送的社群來去討論如果要做法制化的話上述剛剛相關的幾個權益的事項該怎麼落到條文裡面會比較好"},{"start":3257.489,"end":3277.965,"text":"那當然這個過程裡面我們也跟一些長期關注的委員們不斷的在做討論所以我們最近也看到近期也看到越來越多的版本其實裡面都把一些重要的事項其實給放進去包括執政黨團的版本所以接下來我們很樂意在委員會排審的狀況下面"},{"start":3279.867,"end":3293.703,"text":"用比過去因為過去的確勞動部對於專法是比較持保留的可是我們願意跨出一步那也就是對於定立專法對於法治化的工作我們願意正向的開放的來和大家來做"},{"start":3294.604,"end":3320.332,"text":"討論跟審議我們也會把在這段時間裡面我們自己針對這幾個外送員也不只外送員也包括合作的商家也包括消費者其實很關注的一些權益的事項大家來討論我想這部分我想可以很清楚的表達態度所以剛剛在提案說明的時候有幾位委員說我們要1月的時候才提出指引其實不是1月的時候才提出指引"},{"start":3321.312,"end":3345.037,"text":"其實這在昨天的院會的詢問可能大家對於其實意思並不是這樣但的確在我們的這個行政部門的版本上面我們其實現在是進入到研議的最後的階段但因為這個議題涉及到跨部會就是包括交通部包括經濟部包括衛福部涉及到跨部會所以後續還有一些這個"},{"start":3347.558,"end":3367.547,"text":"法制作業的程序我們現在在最後階段還有一些法制作業的程序那需要完成所以我們當然如果大院希望我們提出行政部門的版本的話我想我們也是願意提出可是的確因為法制作業的程序還需要一點點的時間這樣子"},{"start":3368.968,"end":3393.128,"text":"所以我在這邊表達其實我們並沒有不願意來做專法或者是只做指引指引是現在我們跟包括跟交通部跟其他部會這是會做的那目前也在進行中那但是就專法的部分其實我們經過幾個月的研議那其實也進入到最後的階段那我們也很樂意在剛剛在講到尤其幾個部分的面向包括"},{"start":3395.315,"end":3423.481,"text":"報酬的保障包括停權的申訴包括契約規範變更條件包括保險的權益等等事情來針對法制化針對專法的部分來和委員會來做這個更審議那我自己也相信在外送員的議題上面其實是一個很好的可以朝野合作的機會那能夠透過這樣的朝野合作能夠對於外送員的權益可以再更進一步那我自己覺得這是一個好的方向跟正確的方向謝謝"},{"start":3426.174,"end":3451.183,"text":"謝謝洪部長因為昨天在院會的時候可能有人誤會啊你因為你講的說指引到明年1月所以以為勞動部的態度是這樣那很高興聽到剛剛洪部長很明確的表明說支持專法的修訂但是這個行政程序要加速因為已經等了13年所以很多的這個相關的團體相關團體也覺得說不能夠用這個理由他們也擔心說現在"},{"start":3453.804,"end":3474.913,"text":"這個院方願意提出版本是在拖延環兵之際所以謝謝洪部長說不是那就是儘速提出行政院的版本好那接下來因為速發部次長葉次長應該等一下有別的事情就你現在有時間上來說明嗎還是你要這個書面說明就好"},{"start":3477.11,"end":3498.425,"text":"好好因為次長等一下還有事情要先離開喔那我們請交通部次長陳次長說明主席各位委員各位女士先生今天要列席貴委員會就洪孟凱"},{"start":3500.081,"end":3520.229,"text":"洪委員孟凱等21人台灣民眾黨黨團羅委員廷偉等20人王委員玉敏等16人王委員洪威等20人楊瓊雲委員等19人所提的外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案提出本部的一個處理意見來供委員參考進行指教"},{"start":3520.789,"end":3538.578,"text":"首先就各委員所提供的版本中涉及交通部的部分有外送員的教育訓練然後配合勞動部對外送員交通安全的設備或工具訂定外送安全衛生服務的標準及外送員提供外送服務時"},{"start":3539.278,"end":3555.738,"text":"如果發生了相關的一個交通事故致人死傷或重傷或死亡因於三個內完成48小時的道路交通安全獎習等三項的一個規定那針對於外送員的一個訓練或是要配合勞動部訂定相關的一個標準"},{"start":3556.799,"end":3576.342,"text":"本部尊重委員會審查的意見有關參加道路交通安全講習的部分因為本部相關的一個道路交通安全講習辦法裡面已經有訂定對於各種不同的違規行為應該要施予道路交通安全講習為了避免法規進合的標準不一"},{"start":3576.923,"end":3592.79,"text":"所以我們建請如果在審查的時候希望能夠配合法規然後就實務的相關的一個規定對於相關的文字來做相關的一個修正最後如果這個草案獲得院裡頭審議通過以後設有關交通"},{"start":3595.911,"end":3616.853,"text":"部的部分我們一定全力來配合來降低外送員違規的一個行為然後減少交通安全事故的發生來維護道路交通安全那就目前有關外送員的一個道路交通安全的管理跟大家有比較關切的外送員的運駕的一個修正的我來這裡跟大家做一個說明"},{"start":3617.353,"end":3632.181,"text":"那有關交通安全的管理的方面呢本部公路局訂定有關訂有機車外送交通安全指引那在這指引裡面呢針對外送員發生超速闖紅燈等重大違規會依情節要求業者呢"},{"start":3633.022,"end":3645.695,"text":"應對其有相關的一個輔導的機制或者是對於相關的行為應該要報送普通重型機車的駕訓班參加機車駕駛的教育"},{"start":3649.159,"end":3661.784,"text":"那另外呢也會對業者每月辦理所謂的安全的查核那也會每季呢與警察機關辦理全國性的同步機車的一個路檢那查有違規當然就自單舉發那車輛有違規不符規定那當然也就會要責令改正那至於駕照的吊銷啦牌照的註銷啦及無照駕駛的部分呢"},{"start":3671.888,"end":3697.961,"text":"則會通知業者來查明來改善甚至來停派最後會要求業者對於風險控管及提出精進的一個做法然後會促進各業者對所屬的外送員就事故的件數及事故率增加的這樣的一個外送員應分析其原因然後提出具體的一個管理的精進作為第二個部分是大家比較關切有關運費的部分"},{"start":3700.962,"end":3715.607,"text":"運價的部分運價的修正就修正這個汽車運輸業管理規則或者運價準則的部分那本部呢是非常重視這樣的一個修正所以跟對相關的利害關係人譬如說消費者外送平台外送員工會等"},{"start":3716.127,"end":3739.412,"text":"多所討論目前正在收集各單位的意見我們預計在今年的11月預告原價的修正的一個草案進速來完成相關的一個法令的修正後續我們會接著我們會做相關的預告工作之後我們還是會持續邀請外送平台的業者及外送員"},{"start":3740.072,"end":3750.421,"text":"及相關公費召開法令實施的前置會議來研商運價的成本的項目然後各項成本的計算所需要的營運的資料還有相關的這個運價的一個如何區分等等的這些議題我們後續就會"},{"start":3757.066,"end":3780.479,"text":"再来精进的跟你相关的外送相关的利害关系人来讨论那结于呢本部将持续的督导外送平台呢业者重视其所属外送员的一个交通安全以有效降低外送员违规驾驶的行为及减少交通事故以维护道路交通安全以上谢谢谢谢次长"},{"start":3783.737,"end":3788.142,"text":"你需要休息嗎?確定不用喔?確定,要不要五分鐘?那沒關係,繼續好了"},{"start":3797.951,"end":3819.547,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":3820.347,"end":3828.975,"text":"第四 暫定10點半 休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言謝謝昭緯 您今天已經獲得很多感謝不過我還是要再次代表民眾黨黨團向廖偉強 昭緯致謝 排審這個法案好 那有請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":3849.442,"end":3871.474,"text":"部長早部長我今天第一次聽您說這個外送人權益的保障你要朝法治化的方向走然後我繼續聽我有聽到你說事實上法治化的已經啟動了程序那你說還需要一點點時間這個都是剛剛你說的請問這一點點時間大約是多久多快"},{"start":3872.519,"end":3886.469,"text":"我跟委員報告也謝謝委員讓我這個時間可以說明其實大概在幾個月前那我跟我們的同仁其實就是在討論就是其實外送員的保障當然有指引是重要的可是"},{"start":3888.77,"end":3915.728,"text":"我們是不是能夠朝向專法來往前我沒辦法扣除我的時間因為我時間有限就是說你大概給我一個可能的時間你們目標時間我們目前其實進入到最後階段那可能最後因為還要包括預告還要有一些法制的作業的程序我們可能需要兩到三個月但是因為我們立法院已經要排審了那部長請問您知道7月Uber Eats片面條件外送你的報酬平均每一單減少19塊錢這件事你知道嗎當然知道"},{"start":3919.29,"end":3942.235,"text":"那部長這個外送員被減薪每單收入減少的時候他會怎麼樣他會發生什麼事情你知道嗎我知道你也知道他會多接單嘛然後每天他的跌單的權益就受到影響然後為了在有限時間接更多的單他就必須趕快然後就會有道路安全的問題安全危險也提高了這個他本身工作的風險這個都是勞動部在媒體上說的"},{"start":3945.496,"end":3959.664,"text":"那保重部還說UberEats這種做法是不恰當的請問部長對於這種不恰當的做法你們做了什麼我們在當時當然很積極的來協調但也是因為像這樣的事件所以我們也認為"},{"start":3961.462,"end":3975.35,"text":"恐怕就是應該要 剛剛您說是發函嘛就要求一些規則 不只發函也包括約談我們也做了一些行政協調但是當然最後平台還是採取這個做法對 部長因為沒效嘛 發函沒效所以我們的確也是認為在這個前提下那應該是要更進一步的發函"},{"start":3980.152,"end":3998.504,"text":"謝謝部長 因為什麼沒有效嗎誰怕你嘛因為你這個不是你沒有法律效力嘛所以部長那你既然剛剛講了我知道說你可以接受專法的必要性只有法律白紙黑字這個保障才是完整的部長 烏伯利德會反駁他不是減薪是因為他們設計了一套非常複雜的"},{"start":3999.685,"end":4006.267,"text":"薪資計算方式某些項目是加一點某些項目是少一點那但是平均下來就算整體報酬是減少他們會說我們這個不叫減薪我們這個叫調整方案那當然這是話術了部長請你看一下左邊這張圖是某家外送平台的薪資計算方式有各種項目"},{"start":4017.17,"end":4027.214,"text":"那每個項目又有必須達成的條件那不同條件又有不同的加成美其名師獎勵其實是在懲罰這些辛苦的外送員就好像長榮航空他設計了一套非常複雜的獎勵制度那可是讓空服員不敢休息不敢請假所以資方們都很聰明這些資方又不良他用正面表示來表達好像他要這個獎勵但事實上如果你沒這麼做是有很多的隱形的處罰"},{"start":4044.941,"end":4065.716,"text":"那那個像空服員他們就是排二整就是排所謂的報復式排班那那個外送員就是什麼就是接單率變低所以跑單又沒有加成所以部長你都瞭解這個狀況嗎瞭解好那你看右邊這張圖這是一位外送員在網路上分享他一天的報酬一天上線的時間是14小時又12分鐘獲得報酬是2140元"},{"start":4067.717,"end":4093.275,"text":"平均時薪大概是152元已經低於基本時薪了那當然有人說他沒有14小時都在跑但是這種說法就像客運司機手上沒有在方向盤就說他沒有在工作一樣可笑請問外送員不需要等餐嗎請問送達目的地不需要等人來拿嗎那沒有油了要不要去加油所以基本上這個都是花時間的所以部長認為這個外送員的接單的基本費需不需要保障"},{"start":4094.966,"end":4109.991,"text":"報酬上面當然要有基本的保障所以必須讓他們的平均薪資能夠符合基本的時薪吧您同意嗎同意 部長同意部長除了薪資保障之外其他的工作權也很重要有很多的外出委員反映他們的莫名其妙被平台停權剛剛幾個委員也報告了"},{"start":4111.932,"end":4131.349,"text":"明明沒有違規卻被惡意檢舉那平常不查證就直接把他停權申訴也沒用那都得到那種就是罐頭訊息嘛就制式的回應這對他們工作完全沒有保障有一些那個曾經有這個外送員他被用什麼理由停權你知道嗎與消費者有過多的眼神交流啊天啊那這段時間這個就是說"},{"start":4133.07,"end":4150.09,"text":"反正業者說有管道申訴但是這段期間外送員的生計怎麼辦呢他們減少收入也不會有補償部長我要跟你講你的部門勞研所有一個研究報告指出我不知道你看了沒有將近六成的外送員都認為申訴制度是無效的"},{"start":4150.63,"end":4164.884,"text":"勞研所其中九成認為這只是提供制式答案就是我說的那個罐頭訊息並沒有針對他的問題去解決請問部長你認為需要建立一個真正能夠解決問題的申訴平台來保障外送員嗎你同意嗎"},{"start":4165.804,"end":4185.865,"text":"需要而且不只是停權甚至其實這裡面有很多中止契約這有很多的中止契約的問題其實也都應該要有效的申訴制度那剛剛兩個基本問題就是接單的接單費基本費的保障還有有效的申訴這個制度是當中的重點那另外這個勞僱關係的認定跟投保保險也很重要這比較複雜我想逐條討論我們再來說"},{"start":4188.668,"end":4216.793,"text":"那這個請部長做好準備因為這個剛剛也有很多人提這個Foodpanda這個UberEats他們這個新興平台已經存在十幾年了那目前估計至少有15萬以上的這個外送從業人員我們不能再拖了部長我最後有一個問題請教你上禮拜天有一群外籍勞工到勞動部做抗議你知道這件事嗎當然知道他們在抗議什麼他們抗議是這個被中介收了買工費的問題"},{"start":4218.462,"end":4246.234,"text":"然後 仲介費 然後要求什麼他們要求什麼要求要把這個希望能夠把這個買工費追回來嘛除了買工費嘛 那還有要求職聘吧長久的問題嘛 是 當然他們一定會提這個職聘的問題嘛 部長這些移工辛辛苦苦到台灣來打拼台灣除了有獨佈全球的仲介服務費之外還有這個無良仲介收取這個違法的買工費"},{"start":4247.918,"end":4250.64,"text":"那醫工不繳買工費會怎麼樣你知道嗎我們目前 就不幫你找工作啊"},{"start":4256.331,"end":4280.011,"text":"那他們一共每個月繳將近2000元的這個仲介服務費是給心酸的嗎繳心酸的嗎部長我要提醒你說我最喜歡找你以前講話可是每個人本來就要為他講過的話負責任嘛你當立委時也開過記者會批評喔買工費還要勞動部積極查緝違法仲介那現在你是部長囉掌握了權力那請問你有積極查緝嗎你有在積極查緝嗎"},{"start":4282.813,"end":4306.545,"text":"我跟陳委員報告其實我剛剛講到不管是職聘或者政府來做轉換我們這些事情接下來都會更加的努力包括我們其實現在也設了一個延攬中心這個延攬中心就是希望來強化國對國的職聘接下來我們也會針對我們的職聘服務中心還有轉換中心"},{"start":4307.245,"end":4322.076,"text":"我們會做功能上面的整合我們希望做服務上的整合把這部分的政府的角色能夠更加的強化這是我們非常在意的事情勞團說你們把眼睛閉上了裝作看不見了然後裝作沒這件事你接受這個批評嗎他們說啦"},{"start":4323.877,"end":4342.306,"text":"我們非常的在意關於職聘上面的工作那我不是嘴巴講講 這是我們也編列的資源編列的預算 也提了計畫接下來就是在職聘上面希望做得更好請問勞動部目前查到幾件違法的仲介的案件請問你有嗎 手邊有這個資料嗎有去查嗎 有查到嗎 違法仲介的部分"},{"start":4347.308,"end":4361.592,"text":"是113年到114年9月我們將好了好不好因為我的時間到你有資料對不對那我請會後拜託把這個資料送到辦公室來給我看讓我瞭解一下好謝謝部長謝謝趙偉謝謝陳昭之委員請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":4376.248,"end":4401.657,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言人邀請部長勞動部請部長楊委員好 是 部長今天討論關於外送平台管理及從業人員的權益保障法案那本席有提案所以本席要在這邊首先來請教你是否支持外送專法的立法"},{"start":4403.032,"end":4414.808,"text":"我剛才已經表達過支持那如果支持你認為這一步法到底是要保障誰是保障平台還是保障外送員"},{"start":4415.997,"end":4444.562,"text":"主要如果這部法最重要第一個是外送員再是消費者也包括合作的商家當然我們也希望還有這裡面會把這個平台他可能也需要一些創新的空間可以考慮進去但總的來說這個平台外送平台的工作其實他的利害相關方很多所以他其實也需要一些跨部會的分工一起來協助所以這個法也很重要他其實需要跨部會的分工在這個法裡面去做作用這很重要對"},{"start":4445.592,"end":4474.725,"text":"好 那本席也聽到部長您的論點是跟本席的方向是一樣的也就是你的地方也就是著重在外送員的一個保障跟權益這個很重要那所以本席要跟你再討論過去政府都不斷的告訴大家要立法來保障現在險性的部分大概是15萬位的這個外送員的一個權益但是我們看到在野黨提出的這個版本"},{"start":4475.345,"end":4500.113,"text":"到目前為止政府還沒有提出版本只有用嘴炮講所以本席希望剛剛聽到你說你的方向 你第一個是支持第二個是以外送員的一個權益為第一方 為最重要的所以本席要再請教 此時沒有提出甚至在你前任的部長 何部長他表達了"},{"start":4500.973,"end":4526.946,"text":"他終於是第一個表達說但是他是以個人的立場以個人的立場來支持專法所以本席看不到你們什麼時候要提出所以本席要請教因為我們外送的產業是有別於傳統產業有別於網路 有別於購物這些的勞僱關係的形態是一個新興的產業"},{"start":4528.167,"end":4547.391,"text":"但是現在法規有很多的模糊模糊地帶導致他們的權利需要立專法來保障那你認為這個專法的保障是有哪些大方向還有你現在版本到底什麼時候會提出請做說明"},{"start":4547.691,"end":4568.744,"text":"好跟委員說明我想我們並不是只是委員說的嘴砲其實我們這幾個月其實已經在著手研議專法的工作不要再跟我嘴砲因為十幾年一直告訴我們到現在還不提出跟委員說明我們希望內容基本上剛才委員問的方向裡面包括幾個事情第一個報酬要有保障"},{"start":4569.724,"end":4597.279,"text":"第二個停權或者是契約終止要有明確的有效的申訴的制度包括救濟的制度包括裡面保險的事項不管是這個商業保險或者是社會保險的部分那也包括裡面因為這是涉及到多方的權益包括消費者包括合作商家所以你的契約要有規範請問你預計什麼時候行政院版會出來我們現在在最後的階段我們可能還需要兩到三個月"},{"start":4597.919,"end":4624.031,"text":"兩到三個月現在是十月份十月中了所以換句話說你預計在十二月的時候會提出是不是如此十二月或一月我們會盡量趕十二月份的時候會提出因為現在在最後的法制作業程序上好 我們就暫估你會在十二月份的提出接下來本席跟你討論平台計算以及演算法的一個派單本席認為應該要透明化因為比如說"},{"start":4627.072,"end":4645.237,"text":"計費 運價訂定的方式都應該透明 對不對那所以政府一直支持里程的計費但是也有很多外送人員認為沒有辦法去解決所有的問題因為在計費外 這個業者還可以空擔"},{"start":4646.377,"end":4675.843,"text":"要怎麼樣讓派單能夠透明化才能夠根源的解決一致性的不公平的一個樣態請教你們在你們的要預計12月底提出的這個內容裡頭有沒有包括這項我們當然會針對相關的權益比方說如果外送員拒單或者是外送員他下線我們認為這不能有不利的對待因為現在大家現在擔心的派單的這個機制的透明化就擔心說"},{"start":4676.809,"end":4704.967,"text":"外送員會不會因為拒單或者是因為下線就被不利的對待然後在派單上面就會有差別的對待或者是不利的對待那我想我們在我們的研議裡面也認為這邊不應該有不利的對待好 這個方向你這麼說表示會納入我們也希望趕快看到你們的文字呈現因為外送員他也面對到工作不穩定缺乏職災保障的這些問題這都是政府目前必須要積極因為我們已經等了十幾年"},{"start":4705.928,"end":4715.535,"text":"已經等了十幾年所以我們要看到外送平台它現在幾乎是承攬的關係在法規上規避的應有的保障所以我們必須要立專法有68%的外送員他是沒有勞保 沒有職災保也缺乏了整個完整性的第三責任險"},{"start":4725.362,"end":4741.4,"text":"所以在整個完整的保險也就是勞僱關係這相關的議題當中包括外送員以及外送平台業者他不是只有僱傭的這個關係應該他要適用在我們勞工保險條例裡頭以及勞工職貸保險條例跟保障法"},{"start":4745.524,"end":4759.561,"text":"能夠讓他們有一個完整的保險這才是我們要做同時在外送人員在送的當中如果萬一有事件發生的時候僱主應該要有通報的義務等規範你讚不讚同"},{"start":4760.404,"end":4780.761,"text":"跟委員說明當然因為大家現在對包括保險的權益也是不管是商保或者是社會保險尤其是植栽保險尤其是栽保的部分這是現在外送員最關心的部分好所以呢我們的方向討論到目前大概方向有一致的方向我也希望能夠進出提出行政院版的這個版本"},{"start":4783.022,"end":4808.181,"text":"那同時我們到時候在討論的時候也希望本期所提出的都是傾聽了我們外送人員的心聲我們希望能夠真正讓這個新興產業讓這些從業人員能夠安心我們認為在這個議題上面是一個很好潮也可以一起合作來幫助外送員把權益做得更好的機會好 我相信所有的外送員以及平台大家都看到我們的訊息腳步積極 謝謝"},{"start":4811.012,"end":4813.393,"text":"謝謝楊純英委員發言 請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席 想請部長 洪部長請洪部長陳委員好"},{"start":4830.237,"end":4853.43,"text":"謝謝部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤空除或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後"},{"start":4854.571,"end":4874.552,"text":"就是不管是委員 議員其實都收到非常多的陳情上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何"},{"start":4876.244,"end":4900.16,"text":"我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家 七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個勤奪考核"},{"start":4901.605,"end":4916.733,"text":"那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反映這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分"},{"start":4927.748,"end":4937.469,"text":"那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧"},{"start":4938.902,"end":4966.935,"text":"委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好"},{"start":4967.535,"end":4988.113,"text":"那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待這部分我想我們再來了解好 謝謝"},{"start":4989.898,"end":5008.413,"text":"那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦 趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量"},{"start":5009.654,"end":5037.447,"text":"就獨落了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心"},{"start":5038.527,"end":5043.671,"text":"我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有"},{"start":5066.389,"end":5090.835,"text":"只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬 15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員"},{"start":5091.835,"end":5106.945,"text":"不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事監事長"},{"start":5108.286,"end":5111.829,"text":"王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告"},{"start":5133.945,"end":5163.225,"text":"你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說"},{"start":5164.468,"end":5172.164,"text":"第一個其實在昨天的院會上面我們其實就已經表達其實我們是贊成法治化的方向這個法治化的意思其實當然就是定力轉法"},{"start":5173.487,"end":5200.027,"text":"那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分"},{"start":5200.327,"end":5229.967,"text":"所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嗎你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法治化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引"},{"start":5230.787,"end":5253.461,"text":"你昨天的報告其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法治化的方向那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出那但是確實是因為現在法治的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法治的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間"},{"start":5254.601,"end":5279.891,"text":"因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以如果我當然希望可以"},{"start":5281.765,"end":5299.93,"text":"因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎"},{"start":5300.749,"end":5324.503,"text":"當然我們當然不會我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年因為這裡面真的後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思"},{"start":5325.363,"end":5344.885,"text":"謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做Peter Howitt"},{"start":5345.365,"end":5361.937,"text":"那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為"},{"start":5363.098,"end":5389.218,"text":"AI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的指引"},{"start":5390.078,"end":5399.586,"text":"然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目"},{"start":5401.195,"end":5425.855,"text":"其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是示警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見"},{"start":5426.936,"end":5454.073,"text":"這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的"},{"start":5455.273,"end":5469.738,"text":"對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則"},{"start":5471.55,"end":5489.928,"text":"我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論"},{"start":5490.649,"end":5508.453,"text":"我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳金惠委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":5521.573,"end":5535.752,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請洪部長請洪部長蘇緯好你有什麼看法我很佩服你 很穩"},{"start":5538.868,"end":5565.668,"text":"很穩 不急不息不錯 來我們COVID-19就是新冠病毒全世界都封 到處封封鎖 封院 封城 封鄉所以那個時候的平台外送是全世界最火熱那我們那個時候的從業人員可能不是只有現在的15萬吧搞不好double都有 不定"},{"start":5567.27,"end":5577.657,"text":"你也不知道嘛 多少人知道 當然 當然那差不多多少人 那個時候差不多多少人跟委員報告都差不多在我們現在同期在15萬到17萬的中間那個最高峰是這樣"},{"start":5584.879,"end":5605.518,"text":"好 那我今天有四個問題來問你四個問題 時間有限剛剛有很多委員說這個法例已經七八年 七十年都沒進度 現在恆恆開始在加強那我要問你就是我們勞動部還有我們行政院的態度是什麼"},{"start":5608.925,"end":5631.721,"text":"我們的態度其實現在很清楚我們當然 我們現在是支持那我們也願意來推動外送員的權益的法制化所以你也沒有排除要頂專法沒有 如果說就說嘛我們認為是可以用法制化來處理相關現在外送員非常關注的權益那其他的國家是用什麼方式"},{"start":5632.481,"end":5639.978,"text":"其實有用法律其實也有用相關的指引其實都有因為這個法也不好實施"},{"start":5642.379,"end":5664.722,"text":"這個法的應該是說確實因為外送平台的形態跟傳統的工作形態是不一樣的所以這個專法如果要定起來的話它的複雜度其實相比過去的一些勞動法規來說它的複雜度是比較高的尤其它涉及到的部會會蠻多的所以要做很好的部會分工因為比方說"},{"start":5665.703,"end":5683.829,"text":"可能這會涉及到平台跟消費者的部分平台跟這個店家的部分那這部分的確就不一定都是勞動部可以來管轄的部分沒錯…好 那第二個問題就是Uber Eats跟Foodpanda前一陣子說要合併然後後來又停下來"},{"start":5685.069,"end":5705.738,"text":"那如果這個兩個合併我看起來一年的市場規模差不多六百億那這個會不會造成這個平台的壟斷平台的阿爸更加嚴重 柏定後來政府沒有同意合併所以沒有同意嘛所以兩個 一半一半"},{"start":5707.777,"end":5734.082,"text":"比例可能要再兩邊的比例我可能要再查一下所以短期內這要合併也不可能這個好事情第三個問題我們台灣現在的時薪part-time的時薪現在是190吧明年會196196我看日本的時薪part-time的時薪在都會區是230塊台幣"},{"start":5736.78,"end":5743.665,"text":"鄉下是兩百億所以我們已經追到日本快要追平了那你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5744.929,"end":5768.849,"text":"我今天只有一位老師在課題目一條條的確實這幾年在最低工資的時薪的條幅上面是蠻明顯的成長那這裡某個部分也是因為政府其實很關注比方說有很多年輕的工作族群他是用時薪的方式兼職的方式其實在進行工作所以我"},{"start":5769.53,"end":5780.887,"text":"政府也覺得提高時薪對於這些年輕的工作的族群可能打工或者是兼職其實對他們的基本的經濟生活是有幫助的所以也做了一定的調伏"},{"start":5781.604,"end":5807.711,"text":"那明年台灣說IMF說台灣的GDP個人會達到三萬多美金會超過韓國不過很多年輕人跟百姓都沒有感覺那你的看法是真的有那麼高還是假的還是因為我們AI晶片撐高這個假象"},{"start":5809.071,"end":5824.524,"text":"跟委員說明 其實當然IMF發布或者是這些研究機構發布的數字當然不是假的啦這個當然有他們的專業可是我們也理解其實對於很多一般的壽星階級來說傳統產業有些是不行對 一般壽星階級來說他們也會感覺到這裡面行業之間是有差異的"},{"start":5830.689,"end":5839.573,"text":"那尤其是以勞動部的角度來說當然我們要特別關注這些邊際勞工或者是薪資比較低的族群這是我們特別需要關注的"},{"start":5839.949,"end":5868.062,"text":"我們傳統產業佔的百分比是蠻高的那他們的薪資事實上跟這一些科技業是天壤之別所以你們的重點是要照顧這些人如果提高這些人的實質的待遇這也是為什麼我們這幾年連續十年的調整最低工資的原因其實就是因為我們需要特別關注跟幫忙政府需要特別關注跟幫忙這些薪資真的是比較低的邊際勞工"},{"start":5869.082,"end":5897.214,"text":"好 那第四個問題我請交通部次長也上來一下陳彥博兄我想這個法如果用專法最主要就是勞保健保還有職災 再來就是工時那工時這個外送員他手上摩托車放在摩托車上面就算上班"},{"start":5900.086,"end":5909.971,"text":"那個遊覽車司機 卡車司機手放在寒冬路上上班 是不是這樣我告訴你 媒體採訪車 媒體採訪車喔樓下喔 請問要抓那個洪部長的什麼什麼文在你家前面 在那邊等沒有在那邊等"},{"start":5922.523,"end":5940.887,"text":"那個司機 那都是算公司那都常常在糾紛所以這個都一樣所以最重要就是這個公使的界定而且平台如果是變成僱主那是會促發的 那是有刑責的部長 還有次長怎麼回答"},{"start":5942.266,"end":5965.186,"text":"跟委員說明其實因為在外送平台裡面他會有一個上限的時間就是因為這是一個數位平台的運作所以他會有上限或下限的狀態所以有很多工時我們是認為可能會是從上限的時間然後來去做計算然後跟下或者是下限用上限跟下限的部分來去做一個工時的掌握"},{"start":5966.983,"end":5993.676,"text":"我很怕到時候變成這個專法上了之後那這個平台受不了因為那個動不動就處罰嘛上限 工時 難界定那到時候如果有爭議的話是很麻煩的那到時候會不會變成說我不要請你了你都來做part-time就好了那就回到原來的part-time然後你的勞建保 領導台資你自己有一個空缺你在part-time來做這個外送"},{"start":5994.997,"end":6014.301,"text":"很多啊 很多這樣我就有實際的民意代表中間又遭遇了這種事現在其實在外送員的群體裡面其實兼職是比較大眾的現在兼職是比較大眾的所以你立這個法之後會不會回到我剛剛講的問題 會不會沒有照顧到他們"},{"start":6019.284,"end":6047.38,"text":"反而會衍生更多的問題跟我們說明基本上我們要如果要去處理這個法的話我覺得最基本的事情會在幾件事情上第一個比方說報酬要有基本的保障報酬要有基本保障第二個是他們現在遇到的一些權益問題我指的權益問題是指比方說停權比方說契約終止這些像這些權益那怎麼樣子讓外送員能夠有明確的申訴跟有效的申訴跟救濟的機制"},{"start":6048.54,"end":6072.587,"text":"而不是只是平台一方說的算現在大家最多的抱怨跟最多的點就是在說這些事情好像都變成只是平台說的算那理由也不是很清楚那我覺得可能我們要從這些角度來去在這個法裡面去做更進一步的範定那這個對他們的權益的保障主要是處理這些問題那也包括剛剛委員講到的包括商業保險或者是像職災保險"},{"start":6074.668,"end":6089.043,"text":"對 像我們以前遊覽車都來陳情說想要去莫里 韓道路上面就算上班車上如果一個人就算上班如果人家都趕趕下去出去去莫里去韓道路就算"},{"start":6092.106,"end":6098.41,"text":"所以就變成說要請兩個司機 市長是不是這樣你們那邊車 腳車也一樣 你那時候怎麼過現在再稍微恢復 最後一個問題"},{"start":6106.327,"end":6121.001,"text":"原則上這牽涉到剛才特別提到的駕駛時間或者是相關的一個工時那剛才委員特別提到說然後一個人或者是他在休息也算這個整個是屬於工作上的一個時間的規範但是就駕駛"},{"start":6124.184,"end":6149.916,"text":"遊覽車駕駛我們現在是規範遊覽車從上工到下工大概有11個小時的時間是可以做處理的所以剛才委員特別提到的說會有駕駛員有些爭議目前來講是透過這樣的機制在做處理所以11個小時內他自己調整休息是 他是駕駛的時間至於說這個11個小時裡頭是不是違反所謂工時那是另外一個認定的問題"},{"start":6152.31,"end":6157.213,"text":"所以這個問題是蠻複雜的好要研究啦我沒有預設立場了解了解好謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員發言請邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請洪部長"},{"start":6182.614,"end":6211.101,"text":"邱委員好 部長好我想請問針對國內缺工這個嚴重我們行政院長卓榮泰上週表示政府將於短時間內提出全國勞動力總檢討那這個新政策未來引進的移工的速度 數量以及方式都將與過去不同能更廣泛地滿足產業與家庭端的人力需求也就是要擴大引進移工這個我想請問部長是不是這樣子"},{"start":6212.775,"end":6233.6,"text":"跟邱委員報告的確因為行政委交付給我們一個非常重要的任務是對整體的勞動力的供需進行評估那尤其是針對這個跨國的勞動力進行評估所以我們目前其實也是朝向就像我記得這樣過去在講到這個問題的時候我們民進黨的委員都很慎重那也影響國內勞工的怕影響這個國內勞工的工作權益"},{"start":6242.389,"end":6260.57,"text":"那包含賴清德這個院長那總統當那時候當院長的時候他要修的新經濟移民法也是這樣胎死腹中那這一次由葛奎宣是要這個擴大引進勞工我們的規模到底有多大會不會搞到後面又雷聲大雨點小然後又胎死腹中"},{"start":6261.01,"end":6283.828,"text":"我想不一定是說大或小來看待這件事情我覺得最重要的事情還是幾個原則第一個我們還是會秉持本國勞工優先本國勞工的就業機會跟勞動條件這件事要優先考慮因為這個如果一開放當然他就可能是現在我們大概就已經85萬了那逃逸的移工大概也有9萬多人"},{"start":6285.629,"end":6307.235,"text":"那加加起來如果再擴大的話可能是上百萬人因為這樣的一個規模我希望就是說我們更多主管機關能夠一起來做一個討論提出一個完整的配套不要只有勞動部的考量我個人這樣想因為可能每個人這些移工進來之後可能會有相關的其他部會也會有同樣"},{"start":6308.415,"end":6336.572,"text":"也是會有責任的所以我希望把他們的意見也納入可以嗎我們不是用大或小就是說一定要多大規模來思考這件事情我現在不是講大小因為已經有那麼多人嘛你如果說在引進的話是不是就是他可能人數可能就超過百萬那是不是這些跨部會的這個協調還有各個可能發生的原因是不是都要把它納入我想做一個希望你們這邊能做一個完整的一個配套"},{"start":6337.512,"end":6360.593,"text":"當然 移工政策的檢討或精進配套是很重要的那目前開放的這個職業以哪些產業為主這些移工我想跟委員說明因為當然我們現在政策的研議跟評估現在還是在最後的階段所以我們有最後的結果我們會盡快跟大家報告什麼時候"},{"start":6361.534,"end":6381.258,"text":"什麼時候會有報告應該會盡快吧你的盡快可以給個時間嗎盡快一個月兩個月我們現在在做最後的一些程序最後你就講個時間就好了你講不出我講我這邊的話是盡快三個月不會那麼久"},{"start":6387.984,"end":6413.83,"text":"不會那麼久啦 那就一個月啦好啦 不要超過三個月啦不要跟你討價還價 現在不是買東西耶那結論啦 就是希望針對這次擴大引進這個移工除了三個原則來改善缺工我希望能夠有這個整體考量包含健保資源 社會安全網逃逸移工的處理以及調整移民政策等等來協助台灣的這個產業"},{"start":6415.63,"end":6437.471,"text":"另外我們的Uber可能投資我們的福分大母公司部長 雖然經過勞動部與公平會的反對雖然Uber這邊已經終止了福分大台灣公司的併購案根據公開的資訊Uber仍可能投資德力赫洛或台灣子公司這部分我們勞動部是否有掌握"},{"start":6442.35,"end":6446.263,"text":"如果是外資投資的話經濟部都會來爭取我們的意見"},{"start":6446.974,"end":6473.712,"text":"我覺得你們要趕快掌握這個訊息因為你才能夠提早這個因應無論是買台灣的富分大的股份還是買國外母公司的股份如果成為富分大的最大股東都有可能變成實質影響台灣外送員的勞動權益如果發生這種情形我希望部長有想過怎麼樣來協助嗎"},{"start":6476.613,"end":6476.92,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6477.711,"end":6505.913,"text":"我想這個因為這部分比較涉及到企業的經營經營跟投資那我們能夠勞動部能夠處理部分還是對於我們還是要保護我們本國的勞工基本的權益來做保護我們基本還是從這個角度因為面對這種可能市場壟斷威脅三年過去的我們勞動部一直以爭取外界共識為這個藉口拖延當然當時你還沒上任不怪你所以至今沒有到這個外送員"},{"start":6507.194,"end":6527.279,"text":"專法部長你最後臨為壽命你覺得這個剛剛我有看到你們準備提版本嗎已經準備提版本了我們有準備那什麼時候會好現在大概進入最後的法制程序可能我們還有三個月左右時間兩三個月時間我希望你們快一點因為這個東西對於我們這個外送員的這個權益"},{"start":6532.1,"end":6557.014,"text":"的保障非常非常的重要那我們現在有跟這個外送平台這個有開過會嗎有常開會嗎多久開始到不是定期但是不定期平台跟外送社群我看到最近兩次會議已經拉到4個月最後一次開會是3月14號那到現在7個月都沒召開嗎"},{"start":6559.134,"end":6574.39,"text":"跟委員說明其實跟其實我們跟不管是平台或者是外送員的互動或者是相關的諮詢跟協調也不是只是單單只在現在的對話平台上面而已這是持續一直在進行的事情你們開會沒有會議記錄"},{"start":6576.519,"end":6583.764,"text":"那為什麼沒有掛上去的所以你是主管機關啦我覺得如果他們還是不願意接受的話你們應該有作為吧"},{"start":6607.46,"end":6625.635,"text":"跟文說明所以這也是為什麼我們後來我們也覺得是不是要用更進一步的法治化的方法對啊所以我覺得覺得應該你們要更加快腳步啊我們也是在這個思考下面堂堂勞動部委對不對這些講不聽那怎麼辦呢還是要想個辦法吧"},{"start":6626.94,"end":6635.949,"text":"好那最後啦我想時間的問題我再請問我剛看到我們的交通部陳次長有到"},{"start":6640.785,"end":6667.333,"text":"外送員大多使用機車在街頭討生活這個部分非常不安全那根據統計最高峰一年曾發生8400件的交通事故光是台北市就將近了2000件那交通部公路局也依據這個分工訂了機車外送安全指引那市長你是否同意應該鼓勵外送員去上這個交通安全指引課程以保障他們的這個職業安全衛生"},{"start":6669.888,"end":6685.641,"text":"對 我想要跟委員報告我們有這個安全指引之後其實裡頭有很多的一個措施當然包含業者要有相關的一個安全對於外送員要有講習那外送員如果有交通違規比較不好的甚至還要派去駕訓班去受訓等等的"},{"start":6686.061,"end":6705.559,"text":"那整體指引通過之後平均每一車的事故的肇事率原來的0.68降到0.24所以有用嘛是不是要統一路法來做規定然後到公路間單位去配合執行這個部分"},{"start":6706.719,"end":6726.606,"text":"我想在這個部分因為不管是講習分兩塊一個是剛才我講的業者自己的一個訓練自律的也是那另外一個有關道安講習所以其實駕駛人這個外送員也是一樣他的違規如果達到一定的一個標準就是本來我們的講習辦法裡頭就是要講習所以這部分"},{"start":6726.986,"end":6753.53,"text":"對啦 因為這個外送員已經大概十幾萬人在做這個確實是他們要賺錢生活可是也要讓他們顧到這個基本的人身安全好不好 希望這種事情能夠降低部長 次長再麻煩你是 謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員質詢現在宣告待會廖偉祥委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘"},{"start":6776.826,"end":6777.849,"text":"謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":6784.656,"end":6810.147,"text":"廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然"},{"start":6811.232,"end":6837.166,"text":"因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化"},{"start":6838.166,"end":6863.847,"text":"那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對你說開放的態度其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定今天特別肯定但是本席也很樂見所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛對不對當然這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年上半年大概幾月"},{"start":6865.171,"end":6878.851,"text":"然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會"},{"start":6880.41,"end":6893.198,"text":"所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的研議包括哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分對我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰"},{"start":6895.646,"end":6920.204,"text":"你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位 是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做所以是勞動部主責 法的因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是 但是蠻奇怪的因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關"},{"start":6925.39,"end":6944.606,"text":"對不對那其實今天你的報告也也也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫新經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題"},{"start":6946.924,"end":6956.518,"text":"我想要釐清這個問題 跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部"},{"start":6957.796,"end":6981.686,"text":"因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運他其實某部分他有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共"},{"start":6982.326,"end":7001.907,"text":"這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的相關的業務今天問這個就是想要確定這件事"},{"start":7002.367,"end":7017.695,"text":"的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有一個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我"},{"start":7021.897,"end":7039.687,"text":"我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕"},{"start":7040.367,"end":7064.461,"text":"不然當初在民進黨執政全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係我們就先確認一下因為本席認為其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬僱傭還是相關或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大"},{"start":7067.462,"end":7090.22,"text":"都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡"},{"start":7091.171,"end":7107.719,"text":"我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以"},{"start":7108.419,"end":7134.86,"text":"我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴可是因為比方說因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在的進度比較細節的部分"},{"start":7135.32,"end":7157.64,"text":"我跟委員說我自己也希望盡快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以盡快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望盡快其實還有一個原因"},{"start":7158.661,"end":7187.476,"text":"因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者所以因為現在沒有一個"},{"start":7188.696,"end":7215.649,"text":"專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場所以我本席想問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定"},{"start":7216.409,"end":7241.304,"text":"還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法"},{"start":7242.424,"end":7258.733,"text":"所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下"},{"start":7259.133,"end":7281.587,"text":"然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程"},{"start":7282.797,"end":7305.237,"text":"對 你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單 三單 四單都有可能對 大概 我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對 大概可以抓三單都有 但是就看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段"},{"start":7307.539,"end":7321.076,"text":"讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":7322.157,"end":7344.839,"text":"當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一"},{"start":7346.079,"end":7371.73,"text":"我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好 我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去瞭解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的"},{"start":7372.47,"end":7389.464,"text":"我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛"},{"start":7390.649,"end":7412.462,"text":"所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下"},{"start":7414.502,"end":7441.154,"text":"你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人"},{"start":7442.615,"end":7467.714,"text":"我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過 因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成"},{"start":7469.045,"end":7483.539,"text":"所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270"},{"start":7485.18,"end":7510.732,"text":"所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準"},{"start":7511.312,"end":7536.223,"text":"所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料我們再請我們好那會後提供給本席好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":7538.516,"end":7541.071,"text":"好 謝謝廖瑋祥委員 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8270.966,"end":8280.392,"text":"繼續開會 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長要請洪部長黃委員早"},{"start":8289.912,"end":8306.506,"text":"部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡"},{"start":8307.347,"end":8333.255,"text":"就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做"},{"start":8335.22,"end":8358.093,"text":"刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说"},{"start":8359.213,"end":8384.697,"text":"報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方"},{"start":8386.347,"end":8390.433,"text":"因為現在法院也有不一定"},{"start":8391.095,"end":8419.005,"text":"有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對於外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛"},{"start":8419.785,"end":8429.123,"text":"那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理"},{"start":8430.937,"end":8453.887,"text":"當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這個最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於"},{"start":8455.488,"end":8483.19,"text":"所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明"},{"start":8483.59,"end":8511.307,"text":"是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像"},{"start":8511.887,"end":8537.99,"text":"他跑了一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的權益報酬的部分應該是要更透明另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼"},{"start":8539.911,"end":8560.11,"text":"譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加諸在這個外送員的報酬裡面也許你在跑這個單的時候或者這段時間這幾天在跑單的時候就會因為我們這個平台有做這樣的一個活動"},{"start":8560.811,"end":8589.043,"text":"那你的報酬可能也會有一些影響那我想請教就是說像類似這樣平台在做活動或優惠的這個期間是不是也可以保障就是說這些外送員他的權益是不會受到他們平台自己本身在做活動然後受到影響其實現在剛剛委員講的部分在交貨指引上面其實我們的指引在我們的指引上面其實就有規定了那"},{"start":8590.103,"end":8605.279,"text":"也就是說這個平台的促銷不應該是變成是外送人在承擔承擔這個所謂的優惠或者是什麼的不應該是外送人來負擔那所以這也是為什麼我們希望是整體性的考慮他的整體性的報酬因為"},{"start":8606.44,"end":8625.593,"text":"外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度是思考的原因那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法"},{"start":8626.153,"end":8651.482,"text":"未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台未來會不會也是有這樣的一個專法我覺得各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態"},{"start":8652.742,"end":8677.09,"text":"那未來也有可能不同樣態立不同樣不一樣的這個專法所以我覺得部長可能你們要立這個專法之後可能也要再去想一下也許未來不一樣的職業別然後不一樣的這個樣態也會需要立這樣的一個專法有沒有可能跟文說明其實文講的是其實是直直一個核心就是說"},{"start":8678.57,"end":8705.322,"text":"的確過去在做部會分工的時候也是考慮到那未來可能還有多少樣態會怎麼去做分工所以其實在相關的部會分工裡面的挑戰會比傳統的一些業務來得多但我們其實也是考慮到確實這些新興的經濟經營的型態的確在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括"},{"start":8707.11,"end":8711.061,"text":"我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成"},{"start":8712.418,"end":8738.905,"text":"平台跟外送人之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們也其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是"},{"start":8739.665,"end":8753.642,"text":"部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說欣欣的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工"},{"start":8757.005,"end":8781.841,"text":"照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法"},{"start":8782.521,"end":8803.109,"text":"好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣"},{"start":8805.737,"end":8823.068,"text":"報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在栽保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考"},{"start":8825.13,"end":8841.219,"text":"我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也還要再去想怎麼樣讓它更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益"},{"start":8842.634,"end":8867.629,"text":"其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實這是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久"},{"start":8869.49,"end":8888.595,"text":"會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都會我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮這樣子好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":8904.49,"end":8908.738,"text":"主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長"},{"start":8914.983,"end":8934.108,"text":"另外一位很早兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢談我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面"},{"start":8934.708,"end":8951.794,"text":"宣布要調整的那個計籌的那個規範 漠視外送員的勞動權益 當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的"},{"start":8952.714,"end":8962.846,"text":"能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":8969.153,"end":8982.966,"text":"是 我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好 消費者也好大家都有討論那也都會有一支的公司是 大家就是什麼時候送價那我想我們會在這個"},{"start":8988.33,"end":9008.726,"text":"為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益"},{"start":9010.407,"end":9021.259,"text":"因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論"},{"start":9024.196,"end":9042.903,"text":"因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益"},{"start":9043.243,"end":9066.43,"text":"那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念"},{"start":9067.43,"end":9092.126,"text":"服務的基本流程 派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受 如果遇到爭議的時候 那申訴跟救濟制度的話 勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被"},{"start":9094.028,"end":9116.214,"text":"這被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次"},{"start":9119.595,"end":9133.531,"text":"這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤"},{"start":9134.192,"end":9163.468,"text":"如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看"},{"start":9165.068,"end":9187.017,"text":"跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候外送平台他提供要給外送員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課可是如果要到山上去他最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰那另外還有時間跟地點"},{"start":9188.017,"end":9214.336,"text":"我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不應該由外送員來做這樣一個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有訂好我認為顧客的權益 平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把它納入去做考量"},{"start":9215.397,"end":9238.263,"text":"而部長 氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去"},{"start":9238.743,"end":9267.177,"text":"真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎"},{"start":9269.377,"end":9284.731,"text":"跟委員說明基本上的確這也是很多外生源反應的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該要建立有效的申訴機制這有效申訴機制甚至我們都認為平台應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的執行裡面其實有訂定"},{"start":9285.612,"end":9308.14,"text":"就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來"},{"start":9308.78,"end":9328.531,"text":"的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中"},{"start":9328.931,"end":9352.098,"text":"所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的"},{"start":9352.478,"end":9369.538,"text":"一个调查以职业安全卫生设施对照来看的话包括车辆安全的检核教育训练预防措施等都存在相当高的比例没有去做所以这边我们大家就也收到外送员的一些抱怨就来问两"},{"start":9370.239,"end":9384.855,"text":"就是部長跟次長請看這張圖啦這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概17.8%是因為"},{"start":9387.918,"end":9413.026,"text":"分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎"},{"start":9417.501,"end":9433.532,"text":"確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長"},{"start":9437.692,"end":9463.783,"text":"對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其事實上大家也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入"},{"start":9464.483,"end":9485.704,"text":"老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益"},{"start":9486.445,"end":9502.766,"text":"最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨"},{"start":9503.687,"end":9530.692,"text":"那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中"},{"start":9533.132,"end":9541.781,"text":"可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝謝謝林岳群委員發言請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":9555.382,"end":9578.503,"text":"謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛林衛詢委員最後期待召委這邊如果針對於這個專法那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個就麻煩召委再作予考量"},{"start":9580.485,"end":9584.508,"text":"謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":9592.858,"end":9616.731,"text":"是我想大家對於這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障"},{"start":9617.691,"end":9640.3,"text":"那我們也知道越來有越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引"},{"start":9640.9,"end":9667.932,"text":"在這個指引裡面其實第8點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰"},{"start":9670.279,"end":9698.926,"text":"報告委員 確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八"},{"start":9701.548,"end":9721.082,"text":"這樣對保障來講就是一個很大的進步其實民進黨團也有一個草案這個草案裡面在第11條也把外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎"},{"start":9722.376,"end":9746.591,"text":"當然好 太好了我們就持續的來為這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會涵括到哪一些需要通報的重點"},{"start":9747.612,"end":9762.627,"text":"那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考"},{"start":9764.319,"end":9787.621,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平臺業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面"},{"start":9788.422,"end":9812.435,"text":"其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话"},{"start":9813.837,"end":9825.344,"text":"就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的"},{"start":9826.328,"end":9846.191,"text":"好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完成那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是"},{"start":9847.432,"end":9875.424,"text":"那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循"},{"start":9876.204,"end":9904.985,"text":"那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體的來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法"},{"start":9907.289,"end":9924.722,"text":"現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱危害那這個高溫熱危害其實就在一般的作業比較營造作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備"},{"start":9925.563,"end":9942.052,"text":"那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是"},{"start":9942.577,"end":9957.883,"text":"是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在"},{"start":9959.924,"end":9982.439,"text":"那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望"},{"start":9982.899,"end":10010.056,"text":"未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計"},{"start":10011.894,"end":10028.096,"text":"跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫啦因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":10029.838,"end":10048.915,"text":"那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合治安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個"},{"start":10050.536,"end":10065.956,"text":"包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的責任法的51支1條其實很關鍵他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展"},{"start":10066.776,"end":10093.953,"text":"是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法"},{"start":10096.035,"end":10121.735,"text":"讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子"},{"start":10122.355,"end":10149.175,"text":"好 最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道民航局跟其他的航空公司針對於我們曾經在近期討論過的航姐她帶來的生命的因為不利請假造成的影響"},{"start":10150.797,"end":10164.612,"text":"做了一些调整 达成了四项学义我们觉得很感谢劳动部部长这方面的努力可是我们不希望说一个行业一位同仁因为有这样的问题"},{"start":10165.353,"end":10187.705,"text":"就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等"},{"start":10188.385,"end":10201.278,"text":"那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為"},{"start":10202.662,"end":10229.433,"text":"跟委員說明上禮拜五勞工部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的"},{"start":10230.253,"end":10257.164,"text":"不利對待或者請病假會被請多考核認為是多我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是多所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子"},{"start":10258.204,"end":10283.934,"text":"好 如果有研議的報告 可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做反考好 謝謝部長好 謝謝高偉謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":10290.117,"end":10314.08,"text":"林委員好部長今天討論這個平台經濟商業模式下大概如何保障這個外送員的權益在這種狀況我們看到說從2012年這個Full Panda進入台灣開始然後2015年的Uber Eats加入以後大概從業人員至今大概有十幾萬了吧是多少"},{"start":10318.37,"end":10334.099,"text":"17萬人 四家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關"},{"start":10337.007,"end":10366.287,"text":"当然外送也成为现在一些劳工去做兼职的选项特别是年轻劳工我们的劳动力已经大幅下降而年轻的劳动力都去从事外送平台的服务的工作现在有17万人而且都是年轻的劳动力也不止年轻劳动力居多那你觉得这个跟我们这个产业缺工会不会有相关"},{"start":10368.489,"end":10373.213,"text":"就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對"},{"start":10375.427,"end":10401.918,"text":"所以你不敢回答有沒有相關我認為你們也是要去正視這個問題即便有相關那也不是外送員的錯但我現在講一些說其實Foodpanda的營運總監他曾經自己說產業缺工跟外送員的增減沒有直接關係而是大家要去對於彈性工時的工作的接受度提高"},{"start":10402.558,"end":10422.916,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個"},{"start":10424.577,"end":10445.491,"text":"這個專職的工作裡面 不是藍領階級包括白領階級 我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群 而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不想來考試了"},{"start":10447.993,"end":10473.238,"text":"在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估有沒有"},{"start":10474.956,"end":10491.51,"text":"跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢裡面的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧"},{"start":10492.791,"end":10510.374,"text":"他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰"},{"start":10511.948,"end":10532.278,"text":"這樣講太空了 這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化"},{"start":10539.781,"end":10561.688,"text":"你不能只講這一句話 對不對我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候它裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題"},{"start":10563.004,"end":10588.072,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來協助這些產業把法尊該做的法尊跟保障要做到我聽你這樣講不行 為什麼因為牛步化 這些等你討論完了其實這個問題都已經非常嚴重了所以你們牛步化而現在這是現在進行式而且如火如荼的進行式大家都想要彈性工作而上個禮拜四我們的院長端出了一個全國勞動力總檢討政策"},{"start":10591.453,"end":10608.838,"text":"他討論的是未來的這個移工的引進的速度 數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去宣示了這樣一個政策然後他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業"},{"start":10612.859,"end":10617.563,"text":"他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只"},{"start":10635.64,"end":10658.334,"text":"只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策"},{"start":10659.948,"end":10676.264,"text":"可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重"},{"start":10678.328,"end":10705.649,"text":"更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了"},{"start":10707.31,"end":10723.767,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下"},{"start":10724.738,"end":10743.514,"text":"跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考"},{"start":10744.448,"end":10768.755,"text":"不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓它是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工"},{"start":10769.955,"end":10797.058,"text":"大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說很多各種產業缺工狀況很嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動"},{"start":10798.499,"end":10819.733,"text":"你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對"},{"start":10821.035,"end":10849.272,"text":"我现在要跟你讲更严重的事情就是我在讲过的我说那个记者他把调查报告交给美国的这个非营利劳权团体叫Transparent然后他这里有一篇就是揭穿台湾纺织业强迫劳动这里面也有受访这个Transparent这个透明组织他们去访谈了90多名的越南菲律宾印尼亚泰国移工"},{"start":10850.132,"end":10875.84,"text":"這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費、服務費、防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等"},{"start":10876.42,"end":10893.792,"text":"扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":10896.514,"end":10920.809,"text":"調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌"},{"start":10921.71,"end":10938.1,"text":"大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫"},{"start":10942.563,"end":10968.996,"text":"那Pentagonia他就講還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行"},{"start":10971.897,"end":10987.191,"text":"雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去"},{"start":10991.014,"end":11016.601,"text":"你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管所以在這種狀況裡面政府說 買工費不允許可是人家就是存債那你現在政府不訂法律不修改法律不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼"},{"start":11017.964,"end":11032.97,"text":"看到了政府怠忽職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":11035.371,"end":11059.184,"text":"這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩"},{"start":11060.285,"end":11088.291,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範它不是因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管"},{"start":11089.246,"end":11111.934,"text":"但是現在就是最終 你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業 不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些 他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況 當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了"},{"start":11112.754,"end":11120.136,"text":"政府要扛起責任否則台灣從人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌"},{"start":11135.101,"end":11157.594,"text":"Made in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王育民一直看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝"},{"start":11166.215,"end":11191.328,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員發言請陳瑩委員發言現在主席麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長"},{"start":11202,"end":11222.773,"text":"陳委員好部長好我們今天要討論外送員勞動權益保障法的草案我想先請教部長勞動部支不支持這樣子的勞權保障專法的制定我們當然現在我們是支持要進一步的法制化也就是定專法好"},{"start":11224.15,"end":11251.219,"text":"就是一定要專法才能夠保障到到這些外送員嗎還是說我們現有的法令是不足無法保障到他們我們其實現在有訂定了執法訂定了指引跟包括跟交通部其實有訂定的指引但當然訂定專法能夠處理到的面向包括其實可能更廣泛或他的法效也更強"},{"start":11253.032,"end":11263.734,"text":"好 謝謝那我們辦公室最近有盤點了一下就是近期外送員交通意外事故的統計資料有發現幾個現象我們來看一下"},{"start":11265.286,"end":11293.293,"text":"目前最及時更新的是台北市更新到114年8月底意外件數的累積有達到661件外送員受傷的人數是336位新北市政府的最新統計他們是統計到6月份件數是52件受傷人數是68人台中市也統計到114年的第一劑"},{"start":11295.314,"end":11321.423,"text":"我們再回頭看看勞動部你們的食品平台外送員的勞動權益保障專區更新的日期是113年2月16號好像你們已經很久很久都沒有關心這一群17萬名的外送員了我不曉得針對這樣的日期部長有沒有什麼補充說明"},{"start":11323.523,"end":11338.335,"text":"跟村說明我並不是我沒有關其實我一直到近期都還跟外送人其實開了好幾次的會所以並不是當然我們可能資料更新可以更頻繁跟更及時但是並不是我們沒有關係我我們這幾個月我自己就跟外送人真的"},{"start":11339.156,"end":11352.851,"text":"就討論了好幾次我相信部長絕對是有關心的啦但是你們的更新日期是離現在根本就是超過一年半以前這個就有點漏氣這個我們來加強"},{"start":11355.885,"end":11382.278,"text":"好那當然就是說關西斯王厚偉師長在114年3月14日呢他有主持了一個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台的第10次的會議那第9次的會議是在113年的12月13日那我想要請教一下下一次會議預計什麼時候召開然後要討論什麼樣的議題"},{"start":11385.826,"end":11406.399,"text":"是跟委員報告之前我們就想透過這樣的一個平台會議兩方可以大家來交換意見我們也開了非常多次雖然有得到一些成果但是後來慢慢發現工會也表達是說平台在那個會議中能夠承諾跟答應的事項越來越少因為我們談的事項越來越接近像報酬"},{"start":11407.119,"end":11433.491,"text":"像停權這個比較重大的一些事由那平台都保持一個保留跟拒絕的態度因為沒有任何的法律的工具所以後來我們大概的方向就是就不透過那個交換平台的方式來做一些會議所以以後就不開了我們現在目前是暫時然後想透過法治化的方式比較有明確的保障好 那我想再請教一下現在各縣市外送員的工會總共成立了多少個"},{"start":11436.942,"end":11456.856,"text":"因為我們有統計因為外送員加入的工會有很多類型你說你們有統計還是沒有統計因為我們有統計的時候我們發現因為外送員加入的方式類型非常多我們沒有辦法就是列出哪一些是只有他會加入的因為有的是食品有的是商品有的是機車因為他可以加入工會有非常多種"},{"start":11458.178,"end":11473.713,"text":"並不代表說只是上面寫外送員有三個字的他才可以加入所以我們有統計過那個可以的工會也把那些工會放在我們的那個勞動部的網站上讓我們的外送員可以選擇去加入"},{"start":11475.106,"end":11490.752,"text":"所以你说的你要不要举例一下外送员的公会我们在我们的网站上有就是有所有他们可以加入的外送的职业工会跟产业工会都有但你们列出来有几个"},{"start":11491.312,"end":11508.141,"text":"我印象中大概有40到50個40到50個那現在就是說這四五十個的這個會員人數占實際從業人員的多少比是多少比跟委員報告其實因為這個數字在地方政府那我們後來發現這數字不完全是因為"},{"start":11509.281,"end":11525.008,"text":"兼職的他不會跑到職業公會去投保他平常白天有一份自己的正職工作所以統計出來那個會員人數有時候跟實際上從事外送的人員人數不見得那麼接近那我接下來要請教你這個問題就看你們"},{"start":11527.929,"end":11552.506,"text":"有沒有好好的統計喔就是在你們專區第一件事情就是要幫助外送員那如何界定這個承攬派遣僱傭的關係因為不同的關係有不同的這個權益保障所以目前的這些從業人員當中呢這三種就是不同關係的人數各是多少比例然後這些比例都是沒有爭議的嗎"},{"start":11555.327,"end":11575.966,"text":"其實外送員的勞動關係一直是在這裡面很特殊的一個源頭就是他到底屬於僱傭還是屬於承攬那當然平台會一直主張是承攬可是我們基本上現在我們也不會說他是一種單純的承攬所以甚至現在國外也有所謂的中間關係就是在僱傭跟承攬之間"},{"start":11576.747,"end":11602.147,"text":"所以的確我們覺得說以現在的狀況來說的話在僱傭跟承攬之間還有各種不同的看法我們比較主張的事情是把外送員該有的保障的權益用法制化的方式給定清楚比方說報酬的保障比方說停權然後這個契約中止的申訴的保障比方說保險的部分在裡面把它定清楚所以你現在沒有辦法算出就是他"},{"start":11603.288,"end":11620.405,"text":"的這個僱傭這三種的比例不是這比較不是一個計算或統計的問題因為他是直接大家在認定上就有都有不同的看法那我但是僱傭應該是比較清楚"},{"start":11623.331,"end":11634.746,"text":"確實有些外送員去法院訴訟法院的見解也不太一致我們倒是也沒有統計說現在屬於僱傭的外送員有多少人"},{"start":11638.273,"end":11658.52,"text":"好沒關係應該後續會再回頭討論檢查這個問題那同樣的道理就是外送員的職業安全的問題勞動部事實上應該也都有所掌握那相較於113年114年的交通意外件數你們了解的是增加還是減少"},{"start":11662.149,"end":11688.331,"text":"跟委員報告如果是平台業者他接貨外送員他發生災害向我們通報從110年的13人最多逐年下降多少 113年的113年我們掌握是13個人死亡在執行外送的勤務當中到114年目前是5個人死亡"},{"start":11689.445,"end":11703.713,"text":"好但是我想那個交通意外應該不會只看死亡人數啦那全部的件數呢增加還是減少是呈現下降趨勢好的那他們上路前有做教育訓練嗎"},{"start":11705.037,"end":11726.854,"text":"有 現在都有要求 那我想我跟您分享一下就我昨天前天看到的情況那在從立法院回家的路上就是才看到那個外送員就是在那個視訊開著 邊開邊視訊我想這個是很危險的"},{"start":11731.537,"end":11759.569,"text":"要再麻煩你們加強一下這些訓練喔那我們盤點這個結果113年比較確實就是說相較於114年交通意外他確實的確是有減少那就是說這兩大平台目前喔就是看起來Full Panda的件數是比較少的但也有可能是因為"},{"start":11761.429,"end":11785.869,"text":"那個被買走的關係那另外就是說那個交通意外件件數的減少他有可能有可能是代表外送的這個需求減少那也有可能就是說也代表有可能就是外送的需求減少也有可能是物價上漲了那因為這兩年外送食物的價格有沒有上漲部長應該很清楚因為剛"},{"start":11786.75,"end":11805.772,"text":"您刚刚主持那个最低工资审议我们的最低工资可以在2026年可以上涨3.18%跟物价上涨是有一定的关联所以我们从这个例子来看经济的因素跟旨在劳动权益跟劳动力的这个劳动市场流动性有相当大的关系那"},{"start":11808.333,"end":11835.018,"text":"結論本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是要關心外送員的勞動權益之前呢對於這個經濟環境我們也要有相當的研究因此我們要就是說本席要建議你們啟動這個外送員勞動權益影響因子的調查與分析這個研究請你們要著手進行那掌握也比較各縣市的各縣市政府更多更重要的資訊作為你們這個政策規劃的參考"},{"start":11836.55,"end":11857.316,"text":"我想我們很願意聽剛才就是參考委員的意見對於外送員相關的權益尤其是包括安全上面的問題來進行一個調查研究的計畫那更進一步的更清楚的掌握那假設接下來我們要來協助外送員跟協助平台把這些工作做好的話測重的重點應該在哪裡我覺得我們很願意來做這個事情好謝謝謝謝陳穎委員發言請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":11875.68,"end":11876.971,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長請部長"},{"start":11885.738,"end":11908.864,"text":"羅委員早好 部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨 國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來"},{"start":11910.004,"end":11937.136,"text":"這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖"},{"start":11940.199,"end":11961.296,"text":"我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫"},{"start":11962.917,"end":11991.121,"text":"所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊"},{"start":11992.489,"end":12007.191,"text":"面對老保年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題"},{"start":12009.93,"end":12032.72,"text":"簡單來講今天要不是廖偉祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天衛環有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎"},{"start":12034.397,"end":12050.689,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的勞動法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚"},{"start":12051.329,"end":12075.716,"text":"其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多"},{"start":12077.617,"end":12098.958,"text":"一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制"},{"start":12101.964,"end":12128.516,"text":"終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":12131.01,"end":12156.603,"text":"一些權益上面被片面偏更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧"},{"start":12159.875,"end":12183.072,"text":"不好意思 跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思 您知不知道就是過去 過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法"},{"start":12183.939,"end":12210.935,"text":"那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢"},{"start":12212.83,"end":12234.827,"text":"我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛"},{"start":12235.668,"end":12253.45,"text":"說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版"},{"start":12255.287,"end":12282.587,"text":"跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段因為所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者"},{"start":12284.668,"end":12310.532,"text":"有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題"},{"start":12311.252,"end":12329.53,"text":"所以对于契约的规范其实我们应该也要来定定包括一个这个契约该怎么定应该应记载不应记载事项应该在这里面有一个更清楚的范定我想有些外送员是很积极的但演算法以及平台的态度决定了他的生死再积极想接单都不一定有"},{"start":12330.291,"end":12344.865,"text":"這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們"},{"start":12345.706,"end":12371.413,"text":"讲真的我是重度使用者我们大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送员是在整个社会里面撑起我们的生活便利但是这些外送员是在整个没有保障的制度夹缝生存没有制度没有安全没有最低报酬演算法来决定他们的生死所以到底谁能够来帮助到他们"},{"start":12372.353,"end":12383.113,"text":"我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責"},{"start":12385.199,"end":12408.533,"text":"沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為零啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有"},{"start":12409.502,"end":12437.681,"text":"那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變回有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎"},{"start":12438.8,"end":12464.24,"text":"好謝謝羅庭薇委員發言請王玉銘委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":12464.949,"end":12482.976,"text":"部長好部長你剛說外送人員權益專法要三個月才能送進立法院因為還有後面的一些法制你知道三個月是什麼概念嗎三個月之後已經是多久以後的事了明年一月中以後的事一月底"},{"start":12484.198,"end":12510.94,"text":"立法院這個會期已經結束了所以又是要拖到明年的下會期如果要等你們的話要到明年下會期才要開始審議這樣一個專法那我們召委為什麼要今天就已經排了這樣一個專法今天已經在巡打如果召委加快速度的話我們下下禮拜就進入主條了你還在三個月了誰要等你啊"},{"start":12511.821,"end":12540.687,"text":"你這個就是明年才要修法的概念怎麼可能那這樣子拖拖拉拉是真的想要保障這一些外送員的權益還是以拖待變跟委員說明其實我們其實現在就是最後階段的法制作業最後階段為什麼還需要三個月因為這個部長容我提醒包括預告你剛剛的表達前後矛盾剛剛有委員在問你的時候你說你已經跟這些外送員開了很多次的會議是從什麼時候開始"},{"start":12542.482,"end":12569.829,"text":"應該是從6月7月6月就開始開會了然後你到現在版本還長不出來還跟委員會說還要再三個月才要送進來勞動部做事情是這麼的沒有效率嗎而且坦白講討論外送員權益專法也不是今天才開始你自己擔任過立法委員在你擔任立法委員任內你又在未還委員會"},{"start":12571.26,"end":12589.208,"text":"都有相關的討論大家都有一些基本的想法跟概念是他不是一個從零開始的所以為什麼還需要三個月完全沒有辦法接受這跟召委報告如果勞動部是要這樣的態度的話下下禮拜我們就進主條吧"},{"start":12589.628,"end":12615.145,"text":"完全不需要等待啊等待是沒有意義的因為這件事情不可能你現在才開始研議你竟然還要再花三個月的時間也太沒有效率了那如果是這樣子民進黨團昨天在延萊出匆匆忙忙開了一個記者會說他們有擋板了他那麼匆忙做什麼他沒有跟你商量嗎你還要三個月他昨天那麼匆忙的開了記者會拍照說他們有擋板了你們在延萊出"},{"start":12618.98,"end":12638.555,"text":"到底有沒有決心要盡快的通過我以為昨天民進黨黨團很匆忙的開了一個記者會之後代表他跟你們講好了大家現在有共識了因為今天已經在巡打了所以我們要用最快的速度讓這個專法可以完成結果你剛剛的回答是還要三個月後"},{"start":12639.255,"end":12661.96,"text":"跟委員說明沒有決心啦跟委員說明因為現在其實當然朝野都有版本那當然我們也很願意就目前朝野的版本來做討論那當然因為委員也希望我們提出行政部門的版本那我說我們也願意提出行政部門我們也願意盡快但是後去因為行政部門確實跟在委員提案立法院的提案有不太一樣的地方是我們還要經過像預告"},{"start":12664.127,"end":12692.074,"text":"包括法規會的審議包括行政院法規會的審議這裡面會有一些審議不盡然全部都是可以控在勞動部手上的尤其是這裡面還涉及到一些跨部會的職權所以在這裡面所以那你老早就應該要提早上路啦既然你六月份都願意跟外送員就是坐下來談了你怎麼不那個時候就開始你所有的工作在六月份就應該要啟動而不是今天因為國民黨"},{"start":12693.334,"end":12721.299,"text":"我們召委排案之後你從今天開始才要啟動所有的行政作業這個就是你們呆乎職守並不是今天才開始你們不夠重視這件事情我必須坦白講你們不夠重視這個就是事實那進到這個法的內涵剛剛其實你也提到了就是說我們是要保障在他的薪資收入在他的保險在他的這個工作權我們應該都有具體保障事實上這部法不難"},{"start":12722.239,"end":12742.433,"text":"就一些關鍵的部分所以我要問你的態度你同意或不同意現在的這個停權呢是外送平台權力非常大我幫你停權了就停權了完全沒有期限也沒有規範那本席提出來的至少應該要30日的告知並給予經濟補償這個你同意嗎停權就要經濟補償"},{"start":12747.695,"end":12775.295,"text":"因為一般現在是比較是針對終止契約終止契約要經濟補償所以委員的版本是停權就要經濟補償嗎對就是我希望就是如果你提出停權你要提早告知那給予適度的如果加上終止契約就是應該要給予經濟補償因為基本上現在的版本你應該都是如果談到終止契約的部分才會有經濟補償對那30日告知呢你同意嗎"},{"start":12776.417,"end":12797.35,"text":"我想其实提前告知是你们自己心里应该都有个底了吧我们基本上我们是认为第一个停权这件事情的重点是停权的事由要清楚第二个要有申诉明确申诉的机制因为现在遇到的外送人的表达传达的事情是申诉的时候打电话到某个申诉的"},{"start":12798.82,"end":12827.658,"text":"的专线可是那个专线并不是真人的专线所以没有办法这个申诉都会石沉大海所以应该要有专人的回应专人的处理这个我们都同意那他需不需要提前告知如果按照现在平台这么粗暴的做法很多外送员他是有外送他才有收入那你可以就是不提前告知的情况底下你就直接就说"},{"start":12828.799,"end":12849.124,"text":"不給你接單了那他的收入是0那不需要嗎不需要提前告知嗎不需要規範一個期限嗎給他有個心理準備他知道我即將要被停權我可能要去我的支出我可能稍微尊嚴一點或是我要去想我有沒有其他的管道跟方法不需要嗎我覺得提前我覺得我們是可以討論的"},{"start":12850.664,"end":12868.258,"text":"對好但是的確我要說說你剛才在講的這個事情通常是要終止契約部分才會再去討論經濟補償不是在停權這個可以再討論這個可以再討論那另外一個就是他的那個接單費的計算這個我們看到之前這個"},{"start":12870.739,"end":12898.369,"text":"他他擅自更改更改了心智喔他一改呢可能會讓這一個外送員平均一單就少了四成三喔他改了這樣子然後聽說你們勞動部也有介入啊也有去跟平台業者談啊那談了之後我知道的是完全沒有效果啊平台根本不理你啊不理你勞動部啊跟委員說明的確完全沒有辦法去改變他他是把第二單的部分"},{"start":12899.602,"end":12917.575,"text":"他现在是首单是从40块变45块不是50块对这个可以调整但算下来就是钱少很多他的奖励金又没有了他是首前面两单会减少19块他的奖励一倍就直接取消对然后所以他平均他如果这样子算法是少了4乘3"},{"start":12918.82,"end":12948.357,"text":"就是少了19塊啦是少了4乘3所以4乘3在那個情況底下你認為你認為對一個外送員的衝擊不大嗎那讓人家最擔心的是後來你們也有去找平台開會是但是沒有結果是所以這也是為什麼沒有人要理你啊這也是為什麼我們認為如果平台是這樣的態度的話那你不覺得這個專法更應該趕快上路嗎是如果平台是這個如果平台是這個態度的話我們也認為當然法治化是當然有必要的是"},{"start":12948.677,"end":12975.093,"text":"是啊 所以這個就是為什麼現在這麼多委員有共識嘛跟黨團有共識應該就是要立專法嘛不然就是讓平台予取予求啊他連你主管機關都不理你了那更何況這一些外送員他用自己的聲音跟力量怎麼去對抗這個平台的大怪獸他沒有辦法 那個權力是極度的不對等喔所以這個部分 我拜託你喔你這個三個月是太誇張了請趕快跟上腳步好嗎"},{"start":12976.033,"end":12988.081,"text":"另外一個我要提的是我要問你的態度賴清德總統說請一個如果有一個小孩就可以申請一個移工這件事情勞動部要同意嗎"},{"start":12990.062,"end":13011.568,"text":"之前在討論80歲以上免申請巴士量表的時候你講了非常多理由這個人口暴增來源國不足啊嚴重排擠啊那現在賴清德總統提一個小孩就可以一個移工不是更不足嗎不是來源國會更不足嗎你敢不敢反對總統你敢不敢告訴他真實的確是在評估中"},{"start":13012.679,"end":13040.945,"text":"所以你同意了並不是簡單的同意不同意那你為什麼之前80歲以上這個老人家那麼老了免巴士量表你一堆反對的理由那賴總統講說一個小孩就要請一個移工你就可以評估我們在政策評估中對啊所以你一切是看上意啊對不對如果按照你之前反對80歲以上這個外籍工免巴士量表的理由的話放到賴總統提出來這個政策那你更應該反對到底如果你立場一致的話"},{"start":13041.445,"end":13066.001,"text":"我是希望我們討論任何政策不要看顏色了就是真的是依專業來評估專業評估就會有一致性不會因為是誰提出來而任意去更改我希望賴總統這樣子講要慎重的評估兩個小孩比較合理一個小孩就請一個移工聽起來真的是不太合理移工的量恐怕也沒那麼大我們在整體評估中然後包括相關的配套謝謝"},{"start":13069.032,"end":13094.841,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員發言請黃國昌委員發言謝謝召委首先在開始邀請列席的行政官員上來備詢以前我有個會議詢問"},{"start":13096.793,"end":13124.686,"text":"想要先詢問一下趙偉第一個事情是我先代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團感謝趙偉今天排審這個外送員權益專法因為過去太長的時間當中我們看到每天在馬路上吹風淋雨的這些年輕人他們的心聲但我們一直在等我們一直在等"},{"start":13126.192,"end":13152.463,"text":"等到要拖到什麼時候我們才能夠處理這個專法我相信韋翔也記得我們那時候一起在台中大街小巷的時候不管是庭委不管是韋翔我們在馬路上看到那麼多年輕人跟我們揮手我們答應他們我們說到的事情我們會做到"},{"start":13153.689,"end":13167.606,"text":"所以我先感謝廖召偉今天終於讓這個法案有開始審理的機會但我看了今天的整個議程我覺得很困惑因為今天排審的"},{"start":13169.468,"end":13198.099,"text":"有委員侯孟凱21人擬聚有台灣民眾黨黨團擬聚有委員羅廷維擬聚有委員王一鳴擬聚有委員王宏威擬聚有委員楊瓊英擬聚總共排了6萬我看了半天以後 趙偉你們是不是作業有疏忽啊民進黨立法院黨團昨天不是大動作說他們提出了最好的版本你怎麼沒有把這個最好的版本一起今天排審"},{"start":13199.714,"end":13213.308,"text":"現在這個到底是怎麼回事因為我們在野黨不要讓公民誤會說民進黨立法院黨團在沉睡了幾年以後昨天突然提出了最好的版本卻沒有把它排審上來"},{"start":13214.741,"end":13229.917,"text":"回答黃國昌委員因為民進黨團的版本還沒有送到院會裡面來蛤 到現在都還沒有送來還沒有 對喔 好 那這樣子我了解了不是啦 這種事情一定要公開講清楚嘛要不然有很多外送員朋友大家會覺得很困惑嘛"},{"start":13230.518,"end":13247.321,"text":"不要造成這樣子的困惑我覺得會比較好啦好謝謝謝謝召委來現在有請勞動部部長洪森漢交通部次長陳彥博數位發展部次長葉寧那以及經濟部只有經濟部有人來嗎"},{"start":13249.9,"end":13277.641,"text":"現在經濟部有人在嗎經濟部是商業發展署的副署長是是是 請也跟黃委員說一下剛剛這個速發部的次長他說他有會議所以現在在現場的是副署長黃亞平OK好 沒有關係黃委員好再請我們洪部長以前我先請問一下其他主管機關因為剛剛所有人都關心"},{"start":13278.98,"end":13294.427,"text":"行政院有沒有版本什麼時候要送到立法院來剛剛洪部長在回答其他委員備詢的時候其實也講得很清楚這件事情有部裡面可以努力的地方都要送到行政院"},{"start":13295.467,"end":13323.624,"text":"行政院什麼時候會出來其實也不知道因為我在世大法治委員會這種狀況我遇過很多法務部部長常常跟我講他很無奈說法務部的版本早就送到行政院了但行政院很忙忙得不得了通常一個部的版本送到行政院裡面睡個一年兩年沒有什麼下文在目前的狀態下面其實已經成為常態"},{"start":13324.785,"end":13342.617,"text":"那個例子不生沒舉但是我們對於外送員權益的保障我們對於這些年輕人的承諾是絕對不可能去考慮說勞動部的版本什麼時候要送出來送出來以後到行政院裡面又要睡多久"},{"start":13343.359,"end":13360.976,"text":"但為了加速接下來可能時間的進行能夠加速一點各個部會是不是贊成很重要啊要不然勞動部會勞工的權益在前面衝後面其他的部會在扯後腿這樣不好啊所以來先從"},{"start":13362.437,"end":13386.926,"text":"現在因為行政院院會有指定有關外送平台專責的機關是交通部嗎簡要回答第一個針對訂定這個外送員權益的專法交通部贊不贊成我們交通部支持支持嘛來第二個經濟部經濟部支不支持支持嘛好速發部支不支持"},{"start":13388.7,"end":13413.09,"text":"作發部也支持那顯然就不是其他部會扯後腿的問題嘛其他部會都支持啊 後衛你有沒有聽到有嘛其他部會都支持嘛大家都支持啊 非常好那剛剛部長說啊說勞動部這邊大概還要三個月的時間來作業嘛三個月內 非常好那三個月內我希望內快一點啊因為"},{"start":13414.249,"end":13436.649,"text":"我基本上 從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我會強力的要求中國國民黨黨團 朝我對你沒有不敬強力的要求中國國民黨黨團這個法案要往前推 年底以前完成三讀這是我們的政治目標 我們一起努力不管勞動部要多久 行政院要多久現在有個關鍵的問題是說"},{"start":13438.47,"end":13444.939,"text":"你們在訂所謂的勞動部版本或行政院版本的過程當中相關的工會代表可不可以邀請來參與"},{"start":13447.386,"end":13475.605,"text":"定版本就在炒你版本的過程當中聽取大家的意見的時候相關工會的代表可不可以來當然啊當然可以嘛因為我是今天來的時候就是有工會的代表來跟我反映他說民進黨好像這一兩天可能是在黨的平台不關行政院的事啦找了很多工會說要去討論那個版本的內容"},{"start":13476.405,"end":13504.708,"text":"那民進黨願意這樣子做但是他就覺得說但是他沒有受邀啦但是他希望在政府的平台上因為政府平台上就不應該有黨派之別嘛所以呢在勞動部或是行政院的平台上面要這些相關的工會代表來參與的時候不會因為不同的工會有大小眼啊為什麼會大小眼不會 當然不會 絕對不會嘛當然不會 非常好其實他要的只有這個答案 非常好"},{"start":13505.769,"end":13525.917,"text":"我們接下來來看台灣民眾黨黨團其實我們從上一屆國會的時候在鄉林委員他就早就提出來了但那個時候沒有辦法那個時候勞動部沒有要推因為勞動部說什麼勞動部說訂專法有一定的難度我相信現在這個困難應該克服了"},{"start":13527.369,"end":13538.611,"text":"克服不少克服不少嘛繼續努力啦趕快克服啦因為我剛剛態度表明得很清楚這個法案在繼續向前走的過程當中"},{"start":13539.81,"end":13566.521,"text":"我們不會等我們不會等早一點進來有行政部門的聲音絕對是好事至於說法條裡面具體的各個設計包括了大家其實最關心的是因為經濟部的代表今天關心的事情是有很多小吃店有很多商家頭很痛被抽成抽很多我煮一個便當我賣一個牛腩堡100塊"},{"start":13570.05,"end":13581.485,"text":"結果裡面如果有三四十塊被平台業者抽走那接下來他們要怎麼活第二個事情是從外送員的角度也是一樣送了以後我們外送員薪資的計算"},{"start":13583.595,"end":13611.752,"text":"高度不透明那也是導致我們年輕朋友常常出來抗議的理由我相信這些聲音你們在過去研議的過程當中都聽到那針對這些相關具體法案實際上面設計的內容終於有機會可以真槍實彈的開始進行討論了我希望接下來在這個法案在這個委員會推進的過程當中能夠一切順利"},{"start":13612.852,"end":13634.846,"text":"主席站起來了我下面的PPT我會另外再用時間找其他的時間部長有機會來委員會的時候我再進一步請教我簡單回應委員我們自己覺得外送人員的這個專法是很可以朝野合作來把它共同完成那也會對外送人的權益會跨出蠻大的一步我們很樂意用這個態度來積極的來參與好很好謝謝"},{"start":13642.169,"end":13668.17,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員發言顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在請林國成委員發言我想謝謝召委請洪部長請洪部長後圍市長要不要來協助一下"},{"start":13670.339,"end":13695.223,"text":"林委員好 請司長我們打開創戶收量化部長 任何一個勞工立專法 確確實實有他一定的困難這個我想也沒有必要去閃抖其實委員非常清楚對 立專法 但是沒辦法"},{"start":13697.463,"end":13715.475,"text":"時代的歧視所趨國際的方向也是這樣所以不得不立這個專法那我看到今天有關單位我要特別也要肯定我們勞動部在這段時間也廣增各界的意見"},{"start":13716.656,"end":13737.652,"text":"但是虽有不足但是我还是建议洪部长要多听听基层工会以及从业人员的新增这样定出来的话是对劳工才会有所保障所以我觉得我们台湾民众党其实我们提的版本是很早"},{"start":13738.513,"end":13753.585,"text":"我們很早我們也看到國民黨幾位委員提出來的版本也不錯可是我看看昨天民進黨要提出這些里程計算方式這就是很複雜了"},{"start":13754.786,"end":13776.16,"text":"這很複雜所以我還是要建議我們洪部長在這裡大家都從事勞工運動的彼此之間的作法以及彼此之間的勞工的需求我們一目了然所以在這個部分我要特別啟齊洪部長跟有關單位特別因為當初"},{"start":13778.021,"end":13804.995,"text":"我不曉得為什麼把這種外送平台交給交通部其實勞動權利應該是勞動部來管所以這個應該大家趕快因為我看各部會都持有正面的態度肯定的態度所以我還是希望除了感謝我們召委排這個人以外我也希望洪部長趕快管在這裡"},{"start":13807.256,"end":13811.608,"text":"我特別跟部長要提供其實15萬的被"},{"start":13814.042,"end":13837.41,"text":"被這種平台剝削這個我也不需要再講那另外一個就是平台它的不透明抽帳不透明這個部分確確實實要把它放進去彼此之間算是平台是支方但是我們外送員是勞方但這兩個當中當然要有一個平台"},{"start":13838.05,"end":13865.042,"text":"要有一個公平透明的機制那現在問題呢問題就沒有所以在這個部分我還是要建議我們部長跟我們師長在這個部分多聽聽業者多聽聽我們勞工的聲音我想這樣的話會比較好那我也要拜託我們勞動部但是我在這裡真的要跟部長建議第一個"},{"start":13866.192,"end":13892.755,"text":"也就是希望多參考台灣民眾黨的版本我們已經發現到單軌是不能解決問題所以我們的版本本來就設計勞工雙軌制度所以這個部分一定要去考慮那到底單軌跟雙軌這個雙軌的部分也就是我們大家所講的"},{"start":13893.676,"end":13922.668,"text":"企業工的問題也就是說跟他有一年一企業的過程當中他的勞保到底要在職業工會保或者要在公司保這個要把它理清楚特別提醒我們部長這個部分最好以現在的情況來講應該這個制度是雙軌制是對這個專法是最有幫助根文說明其實現在提出來的六個版本那包括民進黨團的版本"},{"start":13924.129,"end":13946.532,"text":"我都非常熟悉我都看過甚至業務單位也都做了分析所以這些版本我們都會綜合來參考其實這些版本的方向其實大致上都是一致的只是在做法上在技術上面可能有不同做法上面的差別但方向上我們認為都是相當一致的"},{"start":13946.912,"end":13970.9,"text":"都是希望對外送員對消費者尤其是對於這個合作的商家有更多權益上面的保護所以我還特別提醒也就是雙軌制也就是點出來本來平台的員工跟外送的員工企業工完全會不一樣所以在這個在訂定的時候要把它明確化這樣可能會好最後我們大家都知道"},{"start":13972.18,"end":13988.586,"text":"確保外送員的他的職災勞保薪資保障以及各種的權益勞動三法這等等都要把它涵蓋下去這樣的專法也就是對整個資方跟勞方跟平台"},{"start":13989.346,"end":14010.716,"text":"才是會有幫助的在保險的方面當然我覺得我們都會特別去考慮包括像商業保險尤其是大家最在意安全的問題所以安全的部分就會跟災保會有關係我覺得這幾個部分我想我們都會特別著重來考慮多聽聽平台 多聽聽業者多聽聽消費者消費者就很簡單"},{"start":14011.857,"end":14039.853,"text":"他只要他希望的東西可以安全到達但是勞工的權益確保平台的營運正常這樣的話才是真正一個非常好的兼顧三營的一個專華所以要拜託部長不要等到三個月盡快去做我相信我們王厚為司長他是很積極的只要你一聲令下"},{"start":14040.233,"end":14061.783,"text":"他會做得很快不需要三個月好不好謝謝林國成委員發言本席宣告在待會張其凱委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘休息20分鐘用餐休息後繼續開會請李坤成委員發言等一下等張其凱委員"},{"start":14071.018,"end":14075.685,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請這個勞動部紅部長還有交通部的陳次長請紅部長陳次長"},{"start":14087.711,"end":14115.248,"text":"李委員好來部長好 次長好請教一下因為大家都很關心外送平台外送員的權益現在民進黨黨團也有提出一個草案出來了我先請教一下我們現在的外送員他有保險嗎現在有商業保險現在有商業保險未來如果說這一個按照民進黨黨團的草案來講的話他必須要投入公會的保險嗎"},{"start":14117.831,"end":14130.769,"text":"應該是說現在大家也會在看除了商業保險以外要不要需要有一些其他的社會保險尤其是安全的部分就是涉及到災保有一些權益的保護那現在所有的外送員他都有保險嗎"},{"start":14131.638,"end":14153.64,"text":"有商保98%有商保98%那请教一下就是说那现在是不是说外送未来外送平台要确认说外送员都已经有完成这个劳工职业灾害的保险投保程序之后然后才可以开放他登录系统或派发订单会不会做这样的要求"},{"start":14157.14,"end":14170.12,"text":"跟我們報告 未來就是會有這樣的一個思考跟設計也就是說他一定要有這樣的商業保險以後他才能夠上線所以必須要有保險之後他才能夠上線才能夠派單嘛"},{"start":14172.213,"end":14197.478,"text":"部長是不是對我們希望朝向這個方向來去做規劃那現在因為平台也大概有三四家那現在如果說我在A平台接單然後我在A平台投保那如果是我也同時也接了B平台的單然後在接B平台單的時候發生了這個事故那是由哪一家平台來負責"},{"start":14203.264,"end":14220.273,"text":"這個商業保險兩家都要去做處理都會處理不會說我是投哪一家商業保險他們都我們的安全衛生指引裡面就提到他們都要幫他保都要幫他保所以不會說因為我是投保哪一家的會有影響就對了"},{"start":14221.138,"end":14242.205,"text":"好 那我再請教一下那部長先請為好了我請教一下交通部次長你們在去年的11月有預告修正汽車運輸業管理規則要把機車外送運駕公司納入法制這個也一年的時間了這個現在管理規則現在的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":14243.147,"end":14268.807,"text":"對 我想跟委員報告一下有關這樣的一個法規就是要修改汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則那這一部分呢大概是我們公路局在跟相關的會議要討論然後消費者因為大家很關心所以提出各種不同的意見那我們現在大概收納了差不多了原則上我們會在11月來預告相關的一個草案"},{"start":14269.427,"end":14292.31,"text":"因為這個也關係到說我們整個外送平台的這個法嘛因為你們是負責就是說他的那一個運價運價的部分運價轉化成運費那這個也是以後外送員的收入的一部分對啊那所以現在那個外送員的收入他是除了這一個你們所訂出來的這一個運價之外那他的其他收入勒"},{"start":14293.45,"end":14313.972,"text":"其他的收入大概就是專法的勞動權益裡頭看他是怎麼樣去規範然後怎麼樣去律定那我先請教部長不好意思那所以呢現在這個外送員他的收入就是會有一個運價的一個收入然後一個是他的這一個勞動的酬勞的收入嘛"},{"start":14315.354,"end":14343.833,"text":"跟委員說明因為外送員的收入會涉及到運價運價的部分會是交通部用公路法來訂定我們這邊會來訂定的會是真的外送員的報酬運價跟報酬理當其實他應該有所連動所以交通部這邊訂的是運價的上限這個上限他的目的應該是要去處理跟消費者之間不要對消費者收取太過多的運價"},{"start":14345.334,"end":14355.124,"text":"那勞動部這邊我們認為概念上面我們來訂定是對外送員報酬的下限報酬下限是對他的收入有一些基本的保障用這個方式來去"},{"start":14356.317,"end":14382.13,"text":"去設計這個對於不管是對消費者或對外送員權利的保護所以現在外送員他的收入基本上會包含運價這方面然後也有包含這個他的勞動酬勞的這方面都有關係這兩個基本上就是他未來他的這一個收入的組成嘛是不是重要的組成應該就是這樣子對不對好那所以這個"},{"start":14384.09,"end":14409.577,"text":"有關這個勞動那勞動報酬這部分要怎麼去做計算呢其實報酬是還是可以計算計算包括他的這個里程上限的時間等等等用這方式可能會去做一些簡單的計算這樣子那我們是希望他要高於最低工資基本上一定要高於最低工資啦不肯低於最低工資的是不是好那因為現在這個"},{"start":14411.477,"end":14439.289,"text":"包含民進黨黨團也送出了這個草案我相信說大概這個會期大概也會接續排審那也希望說這個能夠一切順利啦因為畢竟也關係到將近15萬萬送員的權益還有包含店家還有消費者謝謝謝謝李坤城委員發言重新宣告等這個徐宇珍委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘休息20分鐘"},{"start":14440.714,"end":14442.035,"text":"那請張祺凱委員發言謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":14473.044,"end":14473.065,"text":"請紅部長"},{"start":14479.096,"end":14508.086,"text":"張委員好外送平台是在2012年登陸台灣的然後這段時間我們已經很多的這個外送平台跟專家協者還有外送員都在呼籲說趕快制定了這個專法之前還爆發了兩大外送平台合併的這個危機還好還好在大家強力的監督跟執行之下公平會"},{"start":14509.722,"end":14534.887,"text":"從善如流以獨立機關該有的把關跟審議沒有讓兩大平台合併通過今天要非常謝謝主席開始排審這個專法可是呢我們不禁的要問民進黨已經執政9年多之前"},{"start":14536.639,"end":14559.061,"text":"還是一黨獨大立法院是絕對的多數在那八年立法院的民進黨黨團或者行政院都沒有提出相關的這個版本包括洪部長你2020年就開始當部長對不對是對啊你那時候是大家認為說你是號稱關心社會跟勞動權益的"},{"start":14561.7,"end":14590.103,"text":"當2020當立委當這個2020當立委當立委嘛 對啊然後後來當了這個部長你當立委任內民進黨一黨獨大沒有看到民進黨的版本你又當了一年多了我現在還是沒有看到行政院的版本好 我們來看一下這13年來民間跟民眾黨或者是在野人士做的怎麼樣的一個努力"},{"start":14591.465,"end":14616.736,"text":"柯文哲在當台北市長的時候他在2019年跟台北市的勞動局局長賴香寧推動之下制定了全台灣第一個台北市外送平台業者的管理自治條例這是我們的第一個自治條例我們那時候也呼籲要馬上制定專法呼籲中央可是"},{"start":14618.564,"end":14647.651,"text":"民進黨一直都沒有動我們來做一個總結109年10月23號針對外送員在立法院提出第一次修正案的要修職業安全衛生法部分條文修正案的是民眾黨團最早提出外送專法的草案是誰第十屆立法院112年4月28號是民眾黨所提出來的專法"},{"start":14649.201,"end":14662.806,"text":"到了本屆台湾民众党再次提出修正的专法我在经济委员会有好几次提出执行一方面要求要提专法第二个要避免"},{"start":14664.246,"end":14692.041,"text":"我們的消費者跟外送員的這個潛力受到損害包括去年的9月10號我還主持了外送平台的併過案的公聽會我們要求不要市場壟斷而且要趕快訂專法保障我們的這個消費者今天我特別要提醒的也是我擔心的民進黨在昨天開始開的記者會展開了零案攻擊我要問過去10年"},{"start":14694.093,"end":14723.15,"text":"民進黨或者民進黨黨團有提出幾個外送平台跟外送員潛力的專法嗎零昨天聽說他們記者會提出一個法案來主席我們今天我看了一下我們今天要審的六個案子一個唯一黨團提出來是台灣民眾黨另外有五個是國民黨的版本我們今天應該沒有要審民進黨的版本"},{"start":14725.08,"end":14748.554,"text":"好 我最擔心的是昨天傍晚的時候我們的行政院長卓榮泰在答詢的時候說為了保障外送員的權益他希望明年一月份的時候跟立法院討論整套的這個質疑還在拖嗎 要以拖待變嗎台灣民眾黨已經把它當為優先的這個法案我們力爭這個會期一定"},{"start":14752.196,"end":14779.123,"text":"要完成三讀為了保障我們的消費者保障外送員的這個潛力火車已經開了今天非常謝謝主席排審了如果民進黨跟卓榮泰還要在業台那邊喊火車回來要等到明年1月份就把他們留在原地我們繼續往前開盡量盡快完成三讀我們來保障我們消費者潛力跟外送員的潛力"},{"start":14781.504,"end":14781.897,"text":"部長同意嗎"},{"start":14783.908,"end":14812.251,"text":"跟委員說明其實我想行政部門的版本我們這幾個月其實很積極的正在研議那我們剛剛其實也跟委員有報告了那當然現在進入到最後的法制作業的階段那當然因為法制作業階段還需要一點點的時間所以如果當然委員的審議如果願意再給我們多一點點的時間的話那我們也願意盡快的趕快來把行政部門的版本來提出"},{"start":14812.861,"end":14834.417,"text":"現在不是連民進黨都提版本出來的嗎我們是非常理性務實科學如果民進黨的版本裡面有真的是條文還不錯的大家會採納啊可是可以行政院要快一點好不好當然盡快我覺得不可能不可能你們自己如果火車開了要保障這個這個消費者要保障這個外送的這個權利人民不會等他們的我們立正盡快在這個會期完成三讀謝謝"},{"start":14844.366,"end":14847.468,"text":"謝謝張旗開委員發言請徐宇貞委員發言謝謝張偉我們請勞動部洪先生洪部長"},{"start":14867.259,"end":14893.814,"text":"許委員好部長好我想今天我們在這邊質詢主要當然都是為了這個外送人員的權益的相關問題不管是他們長期籠罩在這個演算法的黑箱或是契約的弱勢跟法制的空白當中已經造成嚴重的制度性的剝削與公衛跟交通安全的風險那部長你有提到說您在這段時間其實已經有跟外送工會跟平台的業者開了十次會議是嗎"},{"start":14895.795,"end":14919.826,"text":"不是十次 幾次啊你有跟平台業者跟外送工會一起開會嗎我以為你現在寫的比較是他們對話平台的會議啦這個對話平台比較不是針對法案那我現在要請教的是您有沒有跟外送工會跟平台業者開會"},{"start":14922.027,"end":14942.597,"text":"部裡面有當然那部長有嗎部裡面有對所以部長沒有就是有跟大家有跟大家有跟大家討論跟對話好那請問一下部裡因為你沒有參加那部裡有參加的這些長官有沒有跟您說他們邀請了哪些外送工會的這個一起參加"},{"start":14944.198,"end":14966.209,"text":"我們有召開那個平台會議 那平台會議裡面的工會端我們大概就遵循一些比較重要而且常常對外表達意見的一些外送的工會來一起做平台的交流你所謂的就是比較有常常有表達意見然後有比較重要的一些 可是為什麼本席收到的一些"},{"start":14968.23,"end":14986.09,"text":"對 為什麼我收到的一些全國的這個一些外送的工會都說他們沒有被邀請到呢所以我才說你們到底是邀請了哪些跟我們報告 全台灣的外送的工會大概有最 掛外送的話職業工會就有三四十個是 那你們邀請了幾個我們大概有八到七個"},{"start":14986.63,"end":15007.738,"text":"那這八到七個大概是哪些工會有外送產業工會也有外送職業工會有台北市有彰化縣有桃園的也有南部的我們區域不是說都集中是那你邀請這些對象是怎麼來的你為什麼邀請這些工會我們長期在做很多的跟工會之間的交流他們常常就是我們交流意見的對象"},{"start":15009.011,"end":15031.253,"text":"原則上為什麼今天會問部長的這個問題就是有很多的外送的這個工會都跟我們反映他們並沒有收到勞動部的邀請一起來參加這相關的平台會議那當然你說好三四十家然後你要的其中七八家這代表性在哪當然是你勞動部說了算可是為什麼很多的外送業者他都感覺到"},{"start":15031.633,"end":15051.378,"text":"他的工會都感覺不到勞動部對他們的重視所以您在這個部分 部長是不是能夠邀請我們部裡的同仁針對我們的外送工會應該是不要分顏色就是讓大家都能夠一起來共同的來參與這樣子的一個平台你開這個會才有意義嗎是嗎 跟委員說明"},{"start":15053.138,"end":15075.666,"text":"外送員的議題跟外送員相關的法制工作是絕對不會分顏色的對 我相信是絕對不會分顏色的但是呢 為什麼很多外送的平台的這些工會都說他們沒有受到邀請所以是不是可以請部長就是在這邊允諾就是說你們會針對我其實會後也可以告訴你是哪些工會到時候是不是您就可以邀請這些工會一起來參與呢"},{"start":15077.206,"end":15082.712,"text":"當然 那另外就是說針對針對這些會議中他們最在意的報酬離縣權勞保職災請問針對這些問題勞動部有沒有協助他們解決因為目前還沒有專法嗎包括報酬然後離縣權"},{"start":15093.649,"end":15116.409,"text":"跟停權然後包括職災的問題目前我們都會希望是放在專法裡面所以還沒有解決是因為還沒有專法所以推動專法要加速進行應該是現在最重中之重的事情所以剛本來講說要三個月大家都覺得這個時間太久所以要請這個部長一定要推動因為目前他們的問題沒有辦法解決是因為沒有專法"},{"start":15118.311,"end":15133.904,"text":"是不是請部長可以允諾我們要加速我們專法的一個推動這樣才能夠真正的照顧這些外送平台的業者我們很願意加速還有就是針對我們的各大平台的運算的方式不曉得勞動部是不是有掌握他們的運算方式"},{"start":15134.324,"end":15162.024,"text":"有 他有幾種類別好 那針對這幾種類別的話相信你們如果有講話的話應該更可以知道外送員其實權益被大量的剝削所以針對這部分我覺得你們應該有更強硬的一個公權力的一個展現來去處理相關的問題他的權益上的確在保障還需要更多的保障好 那請部長這個部分請你多用心 謝謝謝謝徐宇甄委員發言那委員會更新宣告讓黃捷委員詢答後再行休息好 請黃捷委員"},{"start":15174.244,"end":15193.8,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請部長請洪部長黃委員好好 洪部長午安今天早上有聽到您有直接表明說我們勞動部會有外送員專法的版本是嗎對什麼時候"},{"start":15195.411,"end":15219.117,"text":"其實版本已經進入到最後收斂的階段了那但是接下來可能還要因為有些跨部會的法制的工作要進行所以我們是希望在三個月內OK好謝謝部長三個月那這個其實是各黨團的共識包括民進黨團最近也提出我們的版本那其實外送員也等很久了然後六都其實也都有自己的自治條例是"},{"start":15219.437,"end":15237.155,"text":"所以我在這邊想要提醒部長的是我認為接下來大家進到版本的討論之前必須要認知到一個最大的問題就是演算法的不透明因為我一直認為這件事情演算法的霸權是造成所有外送員勞動權益受損最大的關鍵"},{"start":15240.018,"end":15247.887,"text":"為什麼呢因為這個演算法不透明導致外送員他們想要例如說他們突然被停權想要申訴想要舉證的時候都被這個雇主被列為說是不是都是因為演算法的問題可是問題是這個演算法其實就是雇主造成的啊"},{"start":15258.84,"end":15278.397,"text":"那他們不斷的推給說因為演算法其實裡面都有寫但是因為演算法不透明無法被驗證無法被追溯導致於外送員他們各式各樣的權益都被框在這個霸權之下所以他們沒有辦法進行議價沒有辦法跟僱主說因為演算法的問題造成我種種的勞動權益的受損"},{"start":15280.359,"end":15297.773,"text":"那甚至包括說我也聽到外送員他們不斷的在片面的調降薪資甚至是連夾單的費用都不斷的被砍那他們想要去申訴也申訴無門就因為這個演算法裡面各式各樣的機制他們都無從去跟雇主抗衡"},{"start":15298.513,"end":15321.546,"text":"所以我認為這一次的關鍵接下來既然要修法了拜託勞動部一定要站在外送員的角度去了解這個演算法到底要如何讓他們作為其實就是員工他們就是老實說他們就是在這個產業裡面的勞動的一員那到底要如何讓這個演算法是他們有辦法被保障的這個要拜託部長"},{"start":15323.608,"end":15338.327,"text":"那当然我在这边最后还是要强调说就是我一直认为说在这个数位产业里面这些外送员的权益跟消费者的权益很容易最后都是让这个平台方一方独大"},{"start":15339.308,"end":15353.586,"text":"導致受損的不只是消費者還有包括外送員所以我認為接下來既然要制定專法了我在這邊就是唯一一個提醒就是這個演算法的透明度接下來一定要非常非常審慎的進行討論OK"},{"start":15355.669,"end":15382.948,"text":"好那其他的部分包括說剛剛其實也有其他委員提到保險的部分那包括所有的勞動權益還有他們的一些交通風險到底如何讓外送員不會因為為了要瘋狂的跑單瘋狂的搶單才可以去拿到跟過去一樣的薪資導致於說他們不斷的在增加個人的交通上面的風險這件事情因為其實交通部他們也有針對這個"},{"start":15385.209,"end":15401.895,"text":"汽車運輸業的管理規則還有汽車運輸業的運價準則他們也有提出修正的草案了那我不知道說這方面我們勞動部跟交通部目前討論到的共識到什麼程度了是已經收尾了還是其實都差不多了"},{"start":15407.321,"end":15429.145,"text":"委員這部分就由交通部來說明有關那個汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則相關的一個修法我們大概跟相關的工會都有所討論原則上我們會在11月來公告相關的草案OK好11月公告相關草案然後我們勞動部三個月內送出外送員的專訪是好謝謝謝謝黃婕委員那現在宣告休息20分鐘"},{"start":17005.654,"end":17005.674,"text":"是"},{"start":17145.641,"end":17170.314,"text":"來 請繼續開會 請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席蔡常委員先進 列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴 記者媒體女士先生有請我們勞動部紅部長還有我們的交通部陳次長 書發部葉次長以及商發署的蘇署長那另外呢 金管會保險局各支消費者保護都準備"},{"start":17171.454,"end":17187.111,"text":"好 那個他們慢慢來我們就趕快開始了部長這個部長你知道嗎我們現在有行政院憲法有海覽七法對不對有聽過嘛你知道去年我們行政院有一個打詐四法對不對現在還有一個國安十法"},{"start":17188.051,"end":17215.402,"text":"為什麼一個事情要分成那麼多法什麼原因因為這裡面可能會有一些不同職長的分工對 不同部位的分工所以打造就分到好幾個部會海南也分到很多部會好 那我們來看一下我們關心外送員我們關心他的權益那我們來看一下這個概念我很快的講一下其實外送員他其實很像什麼很像我們有線電視系統頻道上的節目透過有線電視系統然後透過線路的傳輸到我們收視戶身上"},{"start":17215.982,"end":17237.063,"text":"但是頻道上是在整合全國性的有線電視系統在整合我們餐廳要把它的餐飲送到消費者身上也是透過一個外送平台做這些資訊的分配派遣外送員 然後送到消費者手上部長 有沒有覺得這個跟有線電視系統一個是吃的 一個是看的 很像吧好 我們往下看"},{"start":17237.643,"end":17253.772,"text":"所以我們來看一下糟糕的複雜的來了單單是餐廳的餐飲要及時的送到消費者身上後面是最重要的是外送員但是你看消費者要付運費消費者跟平台這個運費的收取有消保費"},{"start":17254.893,"end":17273.919,"text":"餐廳也是有它的拆帳也有它的問題但是餐廳是由誰經濟部管的然後外送平台基本上好像是速發部但是外送平台還有兩個角色一個是類似貨運公司負責送貨一個是類似資訊公司負責金流跟資訊流這裡面又涉及到個資保護然後交通部他管什麼"},{"start":17274.659,"end":17294.421,"text":"管這些道路運輸的這些運價然後外送員的是勞工他的勞動權是勞動部請問勞動部這麼複雜的法律關係你有把握現在委員會有六個委員會的版本民進黨也有一個黨團版本好像都把主管機關設定在勞動部勞動部承受得了嗎"},{"start":17297.071,"end":17325.483,"text":"確實委員說的沒有錯我們其實能夠主要管的還是在於外送員的勞動權益或勞動關係的權益上面這是我們在權責上面比較能夠cover的主管的部分是的 所以我們看到委員的提案至少民進黨團版我們focus的是什麼外送員的勞動權益所以我們是以外送員權益保障才加上另外一個外送平台的管理是不是這樣所以我想勞動部的權責主要是放在外送員的勞動權益好 我們一下看"},{"start":17326.363,"end":17341.196,"text":"所以說我們看外送員的勞動權益勞動條件要怎麼樣這裡面有中央政府勞動部會希望訂立一個定型化契約全國一體適用但是實質上外送員可不可能從台北跑到屏東去送餐很難嘛"},{"start":17341.716,"end":17362.253,"text":"一定是在各該地方縣政府的轄內他類似像貨運公司一樣去那邊送餐嘛所以根據他使用的區域道路其實這些道路所在的範圍還是屬於地方主管機關所以勞動部未來有沒有先開始有這個心理準備未來你訂立這個指引之後可能需要跟各地方政府的勞動機關還有他們的路徑機關來協調 有沒有"},{"start":17366.016,"end":17388.664,"text":"當然因為這個法如果訂定以後其實在很多的執法的部分的權責其實也是會有地方政府會需要地方政府一起來來好好執行我跟你說我們民進黨的黨團法我們第22條有提到說平台業者他很有可能把這些業務委託給地方的汽車貨運業者來負責這些道路上面對地方的主管機關好往下看"},{"start":17389.344,"end":17410.371,"text":"所以我们来看一下各方的权益保障跟平台管理其实最重要的明确各部位的分工跨部位的合作才能保障各方权益譬如说外送员要有离线权外送员要有基本的报酬那劳动部定性化契约但是平台呢他也跟另外的消费者餐厅和外送员他的契约争议怎么处理"},{"start":17410.911,"end":17434.342,"text":"還有外送員他也需要去有保險有職災保險這兩個都還是勞動部的權責但是平台他要保存這些記錄各自保護你看看後面站的人越來越多因為呢這些都跟你後面的各部會有關是不是這樣你們後面都同意吧後面同意的點個頭都同意嗎你看問題這麼大好往下看結論來了所以呢目前我們要保障外送員消費者及合作商家的三方權益"},{"start":17435.482,"end":17456.82,"text":"我們顧客他要求的是合理運費商店他要求平台不能過分的抽成外送員他需要有基本報酬 還有透明停權跟送禮契約條件要透明要有申訴跟救濟的機制要有職災保險跟其他的商業保險補助然後平台有這件事情 問題來了平台的這些事情 勞動部一個部會管得了嗎"},{"start":17458.121,"end":17473.888,"text":"需不需要速發部幫忙需要交通部速發部一起那消費爭議搞不好還有消保會對不對那餐廳的爭議搞不好還有經濟部上發對不對好所以最後的結論有沒有結論有結論結論就是各位好好加油吧謝謝謝謝中嘉賓委員發言請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17492.625,"end":17520.673,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請您下 洪部長請洪部長姚委員好 部長我們今天討論就是外送平台管理的部分我們先不討論 就討論從業人員權益保障相關的法律因為其實平台的管理可能跟勞動部本身比較沒有積極的關係"},{"start":17522.597,"end":17545.442,"text":"我想要先請教一下部長就是說有委員版本有民進黨團版本部裡面沒有版本我們有在研議然後已經到最後的階段所以你們是贊成的對不對因為外送平台的從業人員可能會越來越多那各國的立法力"},{"start":17546.395,"end":17572.113,"text":"譬如說歐盟他是有用一個工作指令可能有要求加盟國必須要立法西班牙的歧視法等等那我想要請問一下外國的立法力都有認定或者推定外送員跟平台業者的關係是雇用關係那不一定像"},{"start":17576.758,"end":17585.811,"text":"像西班牙的歧視法西班牙歧視法是 但是不一定都是那我們"},{"start":17588.502,"end":17614.52,"text":"你個人認為是不是雇傭關係那不是雇傭關係的話是什麼關係跟文說明的確他到底在勞動關係上面是不是雇傭關係這是很多大家在討論的爭點之一到目前為止的確還有各方包括在專業界上看法不一定都一致的地方所以我們自己認為如果今天要有一個法制化的工作的話其實我們可以做的方式可以是"},{"start":17616.081,"end":17631.573,"text":"希望外送員要有哪些權益的保障我們其實用正面的方式把它給列入然後把它給放出來這個會不會有怪異漏案的問題就是說我大概知道你們的立場你們的立場就是要跳脫契約的定性"},{"start":17632.566,"end":17656.427,"text":"然後一條一條來列一條一條來列風險還蠻大的但是因為現在因為我們也不會認為它是單純的承攬關係我們也不這樣認為所以這也是為什麼其實在一些國家它會有點認知它是有點像是一個中間類型或者是有點像是一個準了"},{"start":17657.648,"end":17669.035,"text":"類勞工所以他也是在這裡面其實有一點點模糊地帶在認代這個事情不是定型的契約啦還是用定型契約只是他的勞動關係不是傳統的那樣子的勞動關係那"},{"start":17675.177,"end":17702.235,"text":"所以也就是在修法的過程勞動部這邊可能必須要很謹慎因為沒有一個有名契約可以來容納這樣子的一個商業勞資類型的契約那要一項一項來標示這個是一件必須要很小心的而且要很縝密對那"},{"start":17710.325,"end":17731.728,"text":"這也是這個法其實在訂定上面跟傳統過去的勞動法規挑戰比較多的地方是在這個地方對啦可能也就是為什麼那麼多人都主張包括委員包括勞動部都主張必須要訂定專法的一個原因"},{"start":17734.608,"end":17755.978,"text":"可是現在就是說外國的立法例大概都有要求平台業者攸關外送員的勞權和薪資的演算法必須要公開透明因為外送員高度依賴平台的分派工作獲得報酬"},{"start":17759.266,"end":17773.949,"text":"外送員對於平台業者演算法是不是公平分派外送員並沒有辦法知道那勞動部可能必須要在修法的同時就必須要先"},{"start":17775.259,"end":17795.498,"text":"先研究看怎麼要求平台業者演算法管理有一定程度的公開這個要求人家完全公開這個是不可能因為這個裡面涉及到很多商業秘密可是假如完全不公開其實你再怎麼立法都很難"},{"start":17797.523,"end":17823.939,"text":"落實保障外送員權益外送員最擔心的是當他可能被做了一些不利的處分的時候他很難去詢問到底為什麼或者是怎麼做成這個處分到底這個處分的根源到底是有道理還是沒道理還是被過度的不成比例的懲罰那這事情是外送員現在最擔心的是這件事情所以這部分也是我們要給他更多的保障的原因對欸"},{"start":17831.144,"end":17849.958,"text":"就是在等待外送的時間算不算酬勞 算不算委員在講的是說當然就是說他的工作期間所以我認為可能我們會需要去界定一個他的上限期間上限期間是什麼意思"},{"start":17852.369,"end":17872.044,"text":"跟委員報告那個剩限期限就是指他今天可以開始提供外送服務所以他就按就說我現在是可以開始我就啟動那個機器這時候呢他可能在等然後真正接到單呢我們就認為那叫外送服務時間這兩個是不太一樣對對對我現在講的是說你師長再講一下這個"},{"start":17879.946,"end":17889.879,"text":"外送員如果覺得他現在可以提供勞務譬如說從現在開始對 他按下去這時候就是所謂的上限期間然後上限以後呢他不見得馬上等到單對"},{"start":17891.892,"end":17915.846,"text":"有時候他會拒單等到他單來了他也同意了按下去我說我接了這時候他開始要騎車去餐廳的時候這個路上我們認為就是外送服務期間這個才算待命時間不算就是他開始覺得他可以送這個不算如果沒有上線那就跟上線都沒有關係就跟一般狀態一樣"},{"start":17917.647,"end":17934.296,"text":"對 因為是這樣子就是我覺得勞工的權益然後平台的合理利潤商家的生意怎麼穩定然後消費者怎麼減少支出這個是一個很複雜的關係那要完全"},{"start":17941.359,"end":17964.91,"text":"全部讓它四方面都可以平衡這個在立法的過程可能真的有很多東西必須要討論的這真的在立法的技術上面當然是因為它涉及到多方的利害相關方一個是利害相關方多第二個涉及到的部會也多所以在立法技術上確實是需要很小心的琢磨"},{"start":17966.31,"end":17993.101,"text":"這個就是除了立法技術以外呢其實在立法的過程怎麼去橫平各項的價值不只是勞工權益價值橫平各項價值然後怎麼兼顧各方利益讓大家都可以當然不可能全部滿意可是怎麼讓大家在"},{"start":17994.281,"end":18008.977,"text":"只要有多方的啦我都覺得立法的結果就是盡可能讓大家雖然不滿意可是都可以接受讓制度可以持久的進行這個才重要好不好謝謝楊要委員謝謝楊要委員發言請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":18026.377,"end":18030.058,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請部長請同部長王委員好部長在今天早上的提案說明裡面我就有特別提到因為兩大外送平台業者包含Foodpanda還有UberEat分別在101年跟105年就進入台灣事實上在這個產業在台灣已經存在13年之久"},{"start":18056.323,"end":18081.483,"text":"那麼而且呢因為這個新型的產業的產生它當然出現了非常多的相關的勞資糾紛甚至有消費糾紛但是所以這個案子呢這個法案我必須說因為政府的非常的怠惰而使得我們中央的立法的腳步甚至呢比地方還不如"},{"start":18082.364,"end":18100.886,"text":"那麼過去呢我們也有數次包含就是前我們勞動部長我又都質詢過我們有很多委員質詢過都是這樣子說個人是支持但是呢就是一直在踢皮球一直在踢皮球今天早上你說"},{"start":18102.609,"end":18116.474,"text":"願意在跟我們在立法院提出來能夠好好的研究而且你說你也曾經跟關心的委員提出討論請問一下你跟哪些委員來討論幾位其實對這個議題上關心的委員提案的委員算不算關心當然算我就是提案委員之一你有跟我討論過嗎"},{"start":18131.172,"end":18158.312,"text":"好像沒有吧好我今天也問了齁陳昭之委員他是代表民眾黨因為是民眾黨團提案嘛對不對請問你有跟民眾黨團有討論過嗎有嗎你自己這你幹嘛還要看我看別人你有討論過嗎我問他他說完全沒有我就覺得奇怪了我們關心關心這個草案這個立法的我們提案委員不算關心嗎"},{"start":18160.151,"end":18186.142,"text":"我想你跟討論大概都是民進黨團的委員吧可是民進黨團從昨天開記者會之外之前一個版本都沒有啊你們行政院也在推脫啦所以你怎麼會在這邊睜眼說瞎話呢好像你非常關心跟關心的委員在討論提案委員沒有關心嗎提案的黨團不關心嗎但是都沒有得到你要跟我們來討論"},{"start":18187.788,"end":18216.421,"text":"所以這個當然是現在整個的一個社會的氛圍老實說在大罷免時期我們站在街頭上對我們回應最正向的除了小黃七層車問獎司機大哥之外就是很多的外送員的朋友啊因為長期被政府所漠視啊你們現在感受到這樣的一個政治壓力了現在來關心"},{"start":18218.936,"end":18247.703,"text":"但是我們還是樂觀其成因為我們早上都說我們希望能夠加速好那我想請問部長未來這個草案因為很多都是用勞動部可是你們在之前一直都講說因為這個平台都用汽車貨運業而且你們也指定行政院已經指定交通部作為平台的管理機關好那請問一下我們這個專法未來主管機關是誰呢"},{"start":18249.815,"end":18278.45,"text":"你們要繼續推給交通部嗎跟委員說明第一個法的主管機關我們願意 勞動部願意來承擔好 所以你們勞動部終於願意當這個專法的主管機關了法的主管機關勞動部願意來承擔但的確這裡面比方說涉及到一些平台比方說平台跟消費者平台跟商家這部分會需要其他部會一起來協助那這部分可能也需要在法裡面把它給框定清楚"},{"start":18279.41,"end":18300.476,"text":"因為到你們的報告裡面仍然是說因為他們用貨運運送業者來做登記所以這治理機關是交通部所以我才要問那未來這個主管機關現在勞動部終於願意願意扛起這個責任因為過去通通踢皮球對不對"},{"start":18302.356,"end":18322.355,"text":"合佩賽你踢皮球啊 洪森漢你踢皮球啊現在終於正式面對那另外因為消防部的講法也是說如果涉及交通的部分我們當然就是會全力的配合交通部也把他限縮是你涉及交通部分我才願意全力的配合那所以我在這邊確定一個未來會不會有願板"},{"start":18327.127,"end":18346.565,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在行政部門的版本上我們也進入到這個條文最後研擬的階段那的確後面還有一些其實跟跨部會有關的這個在這個立法過程這個會期會被提出院版嗎我們應該是可以趕在這個會期前"},{"start":18348.111,"end":18366.205,"text":"這個會期前大概什麼時候這個會期我們希望要到1月31號我們希望在三個月內三個月內不過這個實在是太晚了我剛剛講雖然你們終於願意面對但是時間實在是牛步化那所以我們立法院我們還是會積極的推動好不好我們也希望盡快謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員發言請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":18381.862,"end":18384.505,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請洪聖翰部長請洪部長部長好 議員好我雖然也同樣很關心外送員的權益但是我想今天有非常多的委員都有針對這個來做詢答了所以本席問的另外一個問題恐怕也是攸關我們的產業界跟我們所有的這個 下一頁"},{"start":18406.694,"end":18430.149,"text":"產業界跟所有的傳產跟製造業所面臨的台灣現在是不是真的成為了血汗之島呢針對9月24號巨大機械被美國的海關際邊境保護局就是CBP針對它台灣製造的自行車跟零件被發布了戰扣令這件事情今天早上我在國防外交委員會我問了林佳龍部長"},{"start":18431.47,"end":18451.244,"text":"剛剛我在經紀委員會也問了公民新部長那麼我算是集滿第三顆心就是勞動部因為這個事情發生之後呢我想這件事情回歸到最後大家想問的就是這是個案但這個個案接下來會不會面對他成為台灣不論是傳產或者是"},{"start":18451.564,"end":18476.194,"text":"科技業在面對美國針對我們在勞權的制度上面的問題的時候未來發生同樣的事情的時候他的SOP會是什麼因為今天我問外交部長的時候我也問了經濟部長那麼到底我們在對外溝通的時候主責單位會是誰而像這樣的一個狀況可以看到川普上台之後他們的所謂CBP"},{"start":18476.894,"end":18485.233,"text":"很powerful他們很多的事情都是先行之後他執行他的所謂從川普總統再到"},{"start":18487.596,"end":18515.619,"text":"邊境管制又或者是要跟美國做貿易他所給予的這樣的一個制度他會先進行所謂的戰扣令那麼這樣的一個個案發生之後其實傳產或科技業的其他業者恐怕他也正在看對美輸入輸出東西的時候到底該怎麼做那麼剛剛問了經濟部長跟外交部長之後最後還是回到了就是在勞動法規或者是勞動指引的部分"},{"start":18516.78,"end":18528.631,"text":"勞動部怎麼樣來面對這個問題跟委員說的確關於強迫勞動跟像這一次針對台灣的公司來進行WRO戰扣令的狀況是非常需要謹慎 審慎的來面對"},{"start":18531.124,"end":18554.197,"text":"那雖然美方這一次是針對單一的公司可是我們並沒有以個案來視之我們並沒有個案來看待這的確會需要我們包括跟經濟部我們會需要來協助我們的產業做一個更普遍性的檢視所以我們接下來會跟經濟部一起來規劃一個輔導跟的機制也包括相對應的指引那"},{"start":18555.817,"end":18582.613,"text":"因為現在這個勞動人權的問題已經變成是企業經營上的經濟風險所以我們要從風險的角度來協助企業怎麼樣子辨識這個風險辨識風險下才能夠管理這個風險或降低這個風險我們的思考是這樣當然在這個輔導過程裡面我們也會來檢視我們的法規是不是有調整的需要因為確實在後面後面也會有需要面對的法規上面的問題"},{"start":18583.573,"end":18596.976,"text":"但因為台灣的產業當然各種樣態都有所以尤其是我們中小企業多所以我們可能也會需要一些調適的時間可是這部分的確我們會盡力的積極的來跟經濟部一起來協助我們的廠商"},{"start":18597.608,"end":18614.156,"text":"好 我很開心喔 就聽到部長其實應該有一個想法跟方向了我會特別來質詢這個部分是過去如果台灣是做代工那麼你做人家的代工的時候主要下單的這樣的一個公司或是跨國企業他會有他了解跟遵循的法規他會自己來查場"},{"start":18615.336,"end":18621.739,"text":"也就是說你在勞動條件上面或者是在勞權的部分必須要遵守這個所謂下單的公司他們怕他們被制裁或者是被裁罰他會有SOP在這裡可是當我們現在都是幫自己打工幫自己來做品牌的時候就會面對這些標準上面的模糊地帶那麼如果部長跟經濟部這邊有溝通的話那會是一個好的方向因為我相信我們也不希望因為這樣的一個個案接下來包括我們跟美方的談判"},{"start":18644.471,"end":18667.47,"text":"又或者是像科技業科技業其實它也蠻血汗的啦這個我想大家也騙不了人包括這些工程師等等也都是工時等等會受到質疑所以這個部分我也希望不只是傳產包括科技業是不是勞動部這裡都要一併來做了解跟一併把它納入來做制度上面設定的一個就是產業"},{"start":18669.538,"end":18696.54,"text":"我覺得我們需要讓我們的產業知道因為國際上面確實越來越重視強迫勞動的問題尤其是針對移工的一些待遇的問題所以我們的產業也必須了解到這件事情它進而才會意識到這真的沒有做好的話它會成為一個風險所以我覺得從風險角度管理然後做出實質的改善我覺得這是最重要的事情那我們要跟產業我們願意幫助產業用最大力氣來幫助產業但是的確時間上面我們會需要盡快來"},{"start":18697.401,"end":18720.123,"text":"好因為主席你站起來我只問最後一個問題那就是因為這又是一樣跨部會的事情有外交部因為然後又有勞動部然後也可能有經濟部那麼這個部分的話會是勞動部主責嗎然後你們在修這個剛剛您所講的這個指引的部分有沒有一個day line要多久或者是說你們面對這樣的一個問題之後你們打算起一個什麼樣的跨部會的協商那都要多少時間"},{"start":18721.292,"end":18748.917,"text":"這個事情我們會跟經濟部合作因為經濟部那邊會有一個淨值調查的相關相對應的推動那勞動部這邊我們也對於強迫勞動跟包括移工上面的一些管理的機制然後仲介的管理的部分我們也會來協助所以這裡面會有各有各的權責可是我們會用合作的方式來盡快推動好如果可以的話我希望這個有更進一步的訊息的時候能夠跟本席以及我們衛環委員會的衛環委員會的所有的委員來做報告好不好謝謝"},{"start":18750.572,"end":18753.695,"text":"好謝謝林楚瑩委員發言請吳思堯委員發言謝謝主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":18771.1,"end":18797.913,"text":"部長所有列席的同仁大家辛苦了現在已經是一天的下半天了大家都還在這裡關心外送權外送員的權益這個會期行政院有四個優先我們在所有的議案上希望能夠做到民生優先經濟優先青年優先弱勢優先在思堯看來其實我們現在來推動外送員權益專法"},{"start":18798.493,"end":18821.825,"text":"就是all in one four in one它既是民生議題又是經濟產業它也是很多從業人員是青年族群也有許多是弱勢族群所以這一個four in one的民生經濟法案我希望大家就理性來對話而不是在這裡政治口水下一頁"},{"start":18823.005,"end":18846.282,"text":"我今天要替您報區事實上您是我所知道的歷任的勞動部長裡頭因應外送員這個新興經濟模式也是一個全新的產業你是勇敢接球的那個人而不是踢球的那個人怎麼接球的那個洪森漢部長今天我看你被罵到臭頭我現在替你報區因為這個法"},{"start":18848.884,"end":18872.436,"text":"過去有很多的立法技術的困難就是誰要做本法的主管機關嗎洪聖翰部長勞動部的同仁勇敢的承擔了責任我想我是給予肯定而我也認為法與其要立得快更要立得好因為這是一個專法也是一個全新的立法不應當為快而快"},{"start":18873.496,"end":18882.005,"text":"本屆的立法院有一個最大的弊病啊就是我們立法委員就是把法立好或是把法修好而不是把法搞爛"},{"start":18883.878,"end":18900.288,"text":"剛剛有委員在這裡垂詢您說你有沒有去找提案的某委員A委員B委員C委員一個一個討論溝通我承認吳思瑤跟洪森漢部長討論很多次為什麼因為我主動打電話給他請他來一起溝通跟討論我想問一下"},{"start":18903.65,"end":18917.469,"text":"剛剛他所提的這幾位OK有提案的委員請問王宏威委員也好或是民眾黨的委員也好有像我們吳思瑤或是民進黨團關心的委員主動一而再再而三的邀請您我們約時間來討論嗎"},{"start":18920.134,"end":18948.324,"text":"我想只要委員有邀請的話我們都願意一起參與是嘛那委員也要既然關心就主動邀請嘛我相信深漢也來自於立法院嘛跟委員的溝通無礙嘛所以我是要先替你們報區也要給鼓勵送暖支持無論如何這一個法的催生我們現在就上路而且他是一個不折不扣的民生經濟法案不要再政治口水下一頁"},{"start":18949.464,"end":18963.983,"text":"民進黨團的版本喔我們未來就來比一比喔產業要有競爭力立法也要有競爭力我們羅列的民進黨團的十大亮點在這個法案上我這裡都列舉出來了"},{"start":18964.929,"end":18981.968,"text":"很重要的一個觀點是一個界面是各部會六大部會全投入部會要清楚分工我看其他的版本喔國民黨委員版本民眾黨的版本就是勞動部然後其他跨部會的業務他不管了"},{"start":18983.141,"end":18994.226,"text":"這是不可行的所以民進黨團的第一個我們負責任的立法各部會六大部會全力投入就是只有民進黨團版本有"},{"start":18995.031,"end":19018.885,"text":"第二個在運費跟最低工資可以雙重保障外送員的基本報酬也只有民進黨團的版本最全面當然我們看到羅廷威委員王玉敏王宏威民眾黨團的版本也有一些些著墨但民進黨團是雙重保障最全面第三個就是民進黨團特別重視的外送員的離線權"},{"start":19021.994,"end":19046.508,"text":"有三個版本在野黨版本是沒有的還有平台不得中止片面中止契約也就是不能隨意任意的停權這個部分是民進黨團是only one唯一我們的版本有其他版本複製缺乳還有建立外送員的申訴管道而且成立一個有外聘專家導入的爭議處理的申訴的小組"},{"start":19047.869,"end":19065.916,"text":"來保障外送員的勞動權益也只有民進黨團的版本有其他的六個版本都沒有提及下一頁接下來外送員的職災保費很重要其他委員的版本也有提到職災保險但是由誰來負擔他們沒有提"},{"start":19066.576,"end":19091.582,"text":"只有民進黨團的版本清楚的讓外送員的職災保費是由平台來負擔我們入法了同樣的商業保險入法也是民進黨團版本當然紅衛委員的版本也有OK再來呢擬定平台跟外送員消費者店家之間的定型化契約民進黨團版本最全面另外的在黨委有三個版本沒有提到"},{"start":19092.543,"end":19113.512,"text":"最後兩個也都是消費者外送員的各自保護很重要各自保護民進黨團版本也是入法以及平台必須記錄保存的責任他要承擔而相關機關擁有調閱權都是為了保障消費者也保障同步保障店家這些都有"},{"start":19114.514,"end":19132.601,"text":"所以說我們的法要立得周延法案要有競爭力才能夠幫助產業的競爭力全面提升我非常負責任的去整理彙整現在所有的版本的利弊得失我們希望未來在討論的時候大家都理性對話"},{"start":19134.13,"end":19155.563,"text":"最後呢因為您會提願板嘛我是提醒單排案的交委委員很用心我是提醒當然我們願意等願板否則會陷入一個狀況我對照了所有的版本你要用哪一個版本作為參照的版本來修那個條次因為彼此的差距很大"},{"start":19156.303,"end":19173.264,"text":"所以如果院版端出之後大家一起用院版作為一個審查的參照也許在條次的對應上就比較能夠有所依循否則你看民進黨團25條我們各方面都有但是如果要請廖委員用民進黨團的版本來作為參照的這個"},{"start":19175.226,"end":19191.975,"text":"主體可能也為難了您可是要如果沒有一個參照的母體的版本真的每個委員的調次跟規範的面向其實在未來的立法過程裡頭會遭受很大的困難所以如果說委員會有共識也在這裡請示這個交委"},{"start":19193.996,"end":19220.056,"text":"如果有院版來討論可能對於後續的討論會更有品質也更有效率這是我的提醒那我們就一起加油我為所有勞動部的同仁們當然其他部會交通部有責任抒發部有責任經濟部有責任金管會有責任然後勞動部有責任還有行政院的消保處有責任所有的部會一起動起來沒有人是局外人但我還是謝謝勞動部勇敢的承擔謝謝"},{"start":19221.813,"end":19241.346,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝吳思耀委員發言羅明才委員羅明才委員羅明才委員不在請劉建國委員發言謝謝召委謝謝主席今天排這個案非常重要那我們先請部長吧"},{"start":19242.313,"end":19262.839,"text":"請洪部長今天很多委員就針對外送員的權益問題來質詢洪部長我想這是要訂定一個新的法律相關的權益保障也會在這個外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案中來進行討論那我也聽到部長有承諾會把行政院版本弄出來對不對"},{"start":19264.71,"end":19285.584,"text":"但是我要定這個新法基本上要很多面向去做思考所以今天召委排這個是讓我們大家都有可以從不同的面向來提供給行政單位做最好的這樣的一個制定性的法律的依據我要從外送員的職場環境安全問題來討論這牽涉到有幾個部會我"},{"start":19294.537,"end":19315.476,"text":"我要從外送員的職場環境安全的範圍來討論這牽涉到今天出席的那幾個單位交通部然後我們的職安署然後安全的話應該主要是這樣子數位部這樣而已嗎平台業者的登錄平台業者的登錄是誰 轄管"},{"start":19319.861,"end":19345.941,"text":"平台業者現在因為平台的治理的全的單位是交通部行政院定平台業者的登錄是交通部登平台業者誰管的如果到現在不曉得平台業者是誰在管的那那這個法律要怎麼定呢平台業者現在整體的治理單位的主應該是目的是做應該是交通部吧"},{"start":19352.711,"end":19379.76,"text":"那還不上來嗎陳氏我問你這樣你還不起來啊不然長期在那邊拿菜你也吃奇怪了平台業者是跟交通部登記嗎平台業者平台業者現在有大概七家的業者裡頭大概有四家他平台業者是跟我們登記為汽車運輸業"},{"start":19382.22,"end":19405.679,"text":"跟你們登記的汽車運輸業 七家 四家那三家是跟誰去登記還是他不用登記 他就是要做平台業者他就可以馬上指揮你去哪邊 去哪邊送 去哪邊送他其他是用商業登記的方式在做商業登記 那有誰管呢有人舉手了 謝謝 不錯 社長都沒有舉手你是商業發展署嘛 對不對"},{"start":19407.443,"end":19433.056,"text":"所以就跟各位都有關係嘛應該整體來講就是說勞動部、交通部、經濟部都有關啦所以這部法律要訂定在那一個新的一個範疇裡面可能全部的部會都要坐下來好好思考我想這個院版才會定出更真完備的這樣的一個對外送員的權利的相關保障嘛因為外送員絕對跟平台有直接的關係嘛 對不對好 那我現在寫給部長看一個東西喔"},{"start":19434.059,"end":19457.953,"text":"不然這 對不起啦 麻煩你念這四個字好不好你看到這四個字進行機車 進行機車嘛 好道路交通管理處啊 條例當然是交通部管的那機車在 騎在進行機車上要花多少錢你就吃辣啦 今天我問你都沒什麼人知道這個事情這樣這個發生什麼事啦"},{"start":19462.495,"end":19476.41,"text":"是用處罰條例的相關規定來處罰啦我知道啦 花多少錢啦多少錢喔我已經講了你還講錢可能要查一下要查一下六百塊啦好不好 我跟你講 六百六百好不好 六百"},{"start":19478.113,"end":19503.765,"text":"600對我們不算多嘛對外送員來講是很多可能他一顛的收入就不見了600來說又處罰條例的罰款裡頭算是比較我知道啦 但是我現在針對外送員的事情嘛對不對好 那很多人一定會納悶這個進行機車跟外送員的關係是什麼嘛跟外送員的職場環境的關係是什麼嘛 對不對甚至有人說外送員你如果不要去騎這邊就不會被罰600的嗎"},{"start":19505.683,"end":19508.272,"text":"就不會被售罰了嘛應該是這麼說嘛 對不對實際上是這樣嘛"},{"start":19512.144,"end":19540.182,"text":"我給部長看 跟次長看一個新聞這個走40分 外送遠送醫院被兇太慢 還給護平有外送我們抱怨 接到龍總的訂單 北龍啦但醫院方有規定禁止騎車入內 於是徒步送餐 花了快40分結果你醫護一見面就錢太晚 太慢 事後還給護平大嘆 難怪沒有人要跑龍總的單然後也掉出相當多這樣的苦準"},{"start":19540.962,"end":19547.371,"text":"我不曉得部長次長對這事情怎麼看像平台業者派這樣的單你們怎麼看"},{"start":19553.173,"end":19574.199,"text":"這確實因為等於是外送員如果接到這樣的單可能會多出蠻多的時間上面的成本所以可能會有些外送員在如果接到這樣的單的時候他可能就會想要他不想跑這樣的單這是可以理解的對啊 他不想跑這個單但是平台業者就派他去要送這個單怎麼辦"},{"start":19577.035,"end":19605.164,"text":"在程序上面他們應該是可以拒單可是可以拒單可是外送員也會擔心因為他們常會擔心如果拒單的話會不會在整個演算法的機制裡面會被做一些不利以後派單的記錄對這是他們會擔心的地方如果外送員也無視這個健行機車這四個字他進去醫院就直接滑600嘛就他一天可能就不見他的相關的一些酬勞了嘛對不對然後"},{"start":19607.005,"end":19627.584,"text":"然後平台業者會合理說要起訴給這些外送員還是要讓這些外送員繼續承擔這樣的事情就你們的理解啦對 所以在這個狀況下外送員會很為難會很為難嘛好 交通部次長有沒有什麼要表達的嗎"},{"start":19629.237,"end":19657.989,"text":"還有商業發展署有關這個派送剛才講到進行機車我的了解在這裡面應該是院區的管理跟剛才特別提到在外面進行機車的管理的規定是不一樣的就這樣但是如何派單讓他合理我想這個以後大概在這個平台的管理上可以來加強所以你們未來要訂這個法律的時候會不會有所規範"},{"start":19661.826,"end":19682.62,"text":"未來要訂這個新的法律要保障我們外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障我們的全名叫做外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案會不會把這個納入時間的關係啦不曉得等一下再回答跟委員說明我們的確是會在思考假設要法治化的話那"},{"start":19684.093,"end":19708.998,"text":"应该要在条文里面更明确的去设定如果外送员拒单或因为这些原因拒单的话这个平台不应该给予不利的记录那用这个方式所以如果外送员不会因为害怕被不利的对待而能够有拒单的权利的时候那平台也必须思考或者是像"},{"start":19709.958,"end":19735.214,"text":"北榮應該去思考 或這樣子的地點去思考說怎麼樣子能夠讓這事情能夠真的比較符合多方權益的運作起來北榮已經有思考 北榮也已經有做一些調整了我再講一段這其實外送也不怕多走這一段路啦但是他們也會怕生財工具被拖掉部長跟次長可以看北榮周遭的環境全部都是紅線他連機車要停外面都沒有機會"},{"start":19737.267,"end":19745.749,"text":"像這樣的環境 諸如此類的非常非常多 我不曉得你們有沒有掌握所以我 所以 然後"},{"start":19747.014,"end":19774.724,"text":"如果假設他們裡面有停車格那也被探病看病了早就已經停滿了所以他們要怎麼辦這是一個樣態 兩個樣態然後再來我剛剛特別提到說北龍在看這則新聞之後人家他們馬上因應了他馬上設置三處的外送點讓外送人員可以入院停車送外送但是我剛剛講說很多住的醫院百貨公司車站周遭甚至於某大型的有一個大型社區叫什麼社區"},{"start":19775.953,"end":19795.629,"text":"那個是網友號稱的魔王社區也有魔王社區不是七月喔是每天都有一個魔王社區然後還有類似中校西路它整條街 整條都是健行機車如果平台業者派外送員到那個地方怎麼辦"},{"start":19797.368,"end":19813.459,"text":"所以我要講的就是說這個我們在法律在訂的時候可能都要把它納入整個思考的範疇裡面這訂出來的法律才真的是保障從業人員也對相關的這個外胸的平台的管理才會"},{"start":19814.7,"end":19836.033,"text":"才會得以啦 應該是這麼講好 然後我再給你看漾太山啦真的沒有最扯 只有更扯啦不是那個超扯 超扯那個全國外送產業工會指出桃園一家木瓜牛奶店地點建在這個桃園機場第二行下的二樓店家還註明外送員騎車進不來 請搭捷運"},{"start":19839.226,"end":19863.642,"text":"好 各位可以開箱一下根據全國外送產業公會計算這張可能要倒賠先不算步行的時間光捷運就需要耗費21分鐘左右至於這個平台許可店家時難道沒有經過相關的省的評估嗎這種店家根本就不應該出現在這種系統上還有另外一個是在位於中壢的服務區高速公路的中壢的服務區裡面"},{"start":19865.191,"end":19894.437,"text":"所以我才特別提到說平台業者到底是誰轄管的嘛誰主著的嘛那你剛跟我講七家四家你們管那三家是誰管的如果平台業者的一個主管機關到現在都還是事權不一那可能你們在管理平台業者的本身的問題就會特別多這問題又來了啊不能平台業者只管派單嘛對不對然後也不顧他派單那個地點的合理性嘛"},{"start":19895.405,"end":19909.615,"text":"這個你們要規範啊 這個你們要處理啊這個你們要管理啊法律有沒有把這個範疇放進來如果平台會議室持續這個樣子平台會議室必須要遭受到我們主管機關的怎樣的一個處置嘛"},{"start":19915.044,"end":19931.074,"text":"我想委員剛才特別提到的就是說派遣的那個到那個派單的地方他是不是可以停車是不是可以可及等等的這後可能在所謂的派單系統上的時候可能要來做一些考量"},{"start":19931.823,"end":19959.646,"text":"不然我特別強調平台月子不能只管派單嘛完全不顧這個地點的這樣的一個合理性嘛對不對然後要外送人自己去承受這樣的交通違規啦還是說其他安全的隱患的風險嘛萬一有一天出事了政府機關誰要來負責這是每天在上演的事情每天都在上演現在也在上演嘛對不對所以我在提供樣態是啦"},{"start":19963.234,"end":19983.702,"text":"這個外送機車維庭比例逐年上升工會也判開放更多臨庭區然後交通部、運營院所也認為有其必要性不過劃設屬於地方自治權限那問題來了喔你交通部說的 要啦 要設啦但是這是地方的管理啦"},{"start":19985.016,"end":20000.966,"text":"這跟宿舍跟寶庭你檢討這件事道理一樣嘛到底是誰要管 市政部要管還是就授權給地方政府去管會不會一國22個字然後有些地方該就像北農趕快設置這個外送平台的這個停車的一個專屬的位置那有的縣市就不設"},{"start":20011.396,"end":20017.037,"text":"那我們這個火力如果定出來這些都沒有兼顧到那這個火力到底是適合哪個縣市用"},{"start":20019.482,"end":20041.886,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個其實這個議題其實不是在這裡面發生的你擴大一點來看的話其實現在有關很多的貨運業者在運送的時候也經常會面臨到適當的地方去停車來做相關的配送所以這一部分的交通部其實在這應該是在最近幾年大概都已經有在請各也就是這裡講到因為"},{"start":20042.406,"end":20067.05,"text":"很多的交通管理事項的劃設等等是在地方所以大概都是跟地方政府大家共同來討論希望地方政府能夠去劃設相關的一個停等區或是黃線的部分開放紅線讓黃線可以去臨時停車這個大概都是持續在檢討中那這一部分如果以後在做外送員管理的時候我們大概也會就這一部分來特別加以注意"},{"start":20067.418,"end":20090.629,"text":"不 你們這幾年有討論嘛但是這幾年這些事情持續不斷的在發生嘛剛剛你有講的有幾個像宅便啊什麼都放進來 持續喔所以我們可以發現很多的縣市大概都有劃設這種貨運的停等區啊或是等等的都有這樣類似像剛才你講的那個對 所以有些縣市有劃嘛那等於就是有些縣市還沒有劃嘛你們討論這幾年之後還是一國多治嘛這也是事實啊"},{"start":20091.369,"end":20114.93,"text":"這個我們再來要求你們要求是要到什麼時候才可以中華民國針對這種外送員還有相關像你所提到的宅便等等等這些運送業有一個依照法律事實規範劃設出來的這樣的一個卸貨區還是送貨區還是一個停等區要多久時間嗎"},{"start":20116.651,"end":20129.717,"text":"這個因為還是一樣啦因為要跟地方政府大家共同來討論但是我們會來我知道你要跟地方政府來討論我們會在相關的會議裡頭來做要求或者是相關的這個場合上來跟地方政府共同來討論"},{"start":20131.827,"end":20158.897,"text":"因為這個是不可能說我時間到了啦因為我們現在就是要訂這個新華嘛對不對然後我們回歸到頭來先講外送員的相關的這樣權利問題的情況之下你這些一併要考慮進去啦你考慮進去的時候如果你又複製過去的那個貨運的還是宅便的情況之下好像之前事情處理不好延伸到現在訂了新的法律一樣還是處理不好啊"},{"start":20160.012,"end":20181.539,"text":"還是會這樣發生啊 還是會一國多治啊我今天來只是要提醒這樣的事情那你們應該明確跟我講說 你跟勞動部跟我們經濟部可以一個月內針對這樣的事情我們有一套很完整的制度 到時候會入華會真正的來保障這些外送員的相關的一些權利啊應該是這樣才對嘛"},{"start":20182.925,"end":20207.738,"text":"委員剛才所提到的這些需要在法律面來加以補強或是加以規定的部分剛才部長有特別提到後專法的時候他會整個我想我們會有相關的一個要求專法裡面還是一定有你交通部所佔的比重啦這是跑不掉的啦一看就很清楚嘛"},{"start":20208.959,"end":20212.791,"text":"我們會把這樣的委員剛才提到的需要考慮的事項在這專法裡頭來預規範"},{"start":20214.925,"end":20243.885,"text":"我是真的不要每天都好像這個外送員還是這個用路人還是相關的這些業別好像大家都在拚運氣活文就到時薪 拍文就到了你就到紅單 拍文你就要上去關不要搞到最後成這個樣子好不好我請部長 社長還有我們的經濟部三發展組是不是一個月內"},{"start":20244.965,"end":20255.873,"text":"能不能討論出更正完備的這樣相關的一些規範跟保障好不好 可以吧可以 好 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長"},{"start":20277.967,"end":20302.509,"text":"部長好部長千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講師說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本是吧對行政部門的版本希望在三個月內希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜議題而是已經長達了數年了"},{"start":20305.249,"end":20331.024,"text":"過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題"},{"start":20331.984,"end":20346.858,"text":"这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含瓜更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责"},{"start":20347.839,"end":20367.675,"text":"是不是是我们的确认为其实可以有更多规范化空间甚至有更多政策跟法规工具可以使用因为这里面确实涉及到多元的利害相关方好那这也是为什么其实很需要跨部会的分工所以迟到总比不到好啦今天愿意也说要三个月不过本席提醒"},{"start":20368.175,"end":20384.703,"text":"因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論"},{"start":20386.624,"end":20410.838,"text":"那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實它的修訂它的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來得高"},{"start":20413.439,"end":20430.915,"text":"所以包括他的整個的立法的架構跟立法的技術這件事情我們是非常願意跟委員來做好好的討論尤其是在這個法規的修訂上面我自己是秉持這裡面絕對沒有什麼分什麼黨派的我覺得能夠把這個法規"},{"start":20432.276,"end":20457.149,"text":"就像委員說的真的是一段時間下來大家終於覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣"},{"start":20458.65,"end":20478.466,"text":"今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳工部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳工部的职长上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里"},{"start":20479.648,"end":20506.622,"text":"所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本"},{"start":20507.984,"end":20529.826,"text":"我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞但我現在越來越相信真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧"},{"start":20531.167,"end":20549.988,"text":"来 部长两个议题我直接就请教因为上午有看到你有答询的时候讲是说希望薪资的一个保障是外送员所在意的嘛对不对你又讲说每一单平台单笔扣运费应该要高于最低工资薪资"},{"start":20551.138,"end":20576.429,"text":"我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限"},{"start":20577.728,"end":20592.107,"text":"那这个上限处理的是平台跟消费者外送员期待的就是至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了"},{"start":20593.188,"end":20617.776,"text":"当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时期对"},{"start":20618.556,"end":20643.886,"text":"每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196元明年就196元換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊"},{"start":20646.564,"end":20662.797,"text":"你看 這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪"},{"start":20664.509,"end":20679.425,"text":"我跟委員說當然是實質的服務期間就是實質的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪所以是不是就跟"},{"start":20681.772,"end":20707.507,"text":"外界理解又不同了因為你今天上午講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是 部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點"},{"start":20709.246,"end":20729.675,"text":"保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就是說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係它是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的"},{"start":20730.782,"end":20757.778,"text":"合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障現行他是以所謂的團體傷害險來cover而且是規範的時間是接單的接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了"},{"start":20759.554,"end":20774.745,"text":"跟文說明你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的"},{"start":20775.646,"end":20803.924,"text":"第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險"},{"start":20806.448,"end":20829.207,"text":"所以现在这个我们会朝向第一个他一定要有伤害保险第二个伤害保险以外那尤其是外送人会特别在意的是安全上的问题是这我们都理解所以我们会这样保障他的安全是用灾保所以还要再增加灾保对好那另外还有灾保保障的时间平台要帮忙付保费好那保障的时间"},{"start":20830.587,"end":20855.055,"text":"總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中"},{"start":20856.536,"end":20879.215,"text":"所以你未來就會變成是什麼就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP只要沒有人給我單我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子"},{"start":20880.452,"end":20897.754,"text":"跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費對 目前你看 部長說對不起 請教您是請教您是勞動法務司嗎"},{"start":20899.741,"end":20905.245,"text":"保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是"},{"start":20915.832,"end":20936.051,"text":"這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛"},{"start":20936.471,"end":20957.792,"text":"跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者"},{"start":20958.793,"end":20970.728,"text":"七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算"},{"start":20971.868,"end":20992.706,"text":"部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外眾平台一定要"},{"start":20994.623,"end":21018.335,"text":"對付它不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者 外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和 頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明 第一個"},{"start":21020.157,"end":21044.245,"text":"確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個"},{"start":21045.405,"end":21066.545,"text":"雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下"},{"start":21067.566,"end":21084.287,"text":"部長上禮拜10月18號生日快樂好不好我們一起努力繼續加油為外送員為餐廳為消費者打造良好的外送關係謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂"},{"start":21087.839,"end":21116.608,"text":"蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在張志倫委員 張志倫委員 張志倫委員不在何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員不在高金素梅委員 高金素梅委員 高金素梅委員不在林思明委員 林思明委員 林思明委員不在圖圈基委員 圖圈基委員 圖圈基委員不在"},{"start":21118.277,"end":21147.197,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一委員張志倫委員林佩翔委員圖權及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或先補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定三"},{"start":21148.078,"end":21161.401,"text":"外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等六案另則其繼續審查本次會議記錄會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}