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次長本席想要講的是過去我質詢速發部 質詢衛福部質詢教育部 質詢內政部因為都有相關權責但主管機關還是在你衛福部"},{"start":120.919,"end":138.42,"text":"有沒有去處理我必須要講有當本席每一次質詢完之後過那一兩個禮拜真的搜尋不到或者是說Google至少第一頁第二頁第三頁沒有跳出來可是一下子之後他們又死灰復燃又回來"},{"start":141.136,"end":161.414,"text":"難道沒有辦法根治嗎 我不相信以現在的技術來講 我絕對不相信沒有辦法根治如果說今天我們不能允許毒品可以這樣子販賣我們不能允許槍枝可以這樣販賣那憑什麼一樣是不合法的電子煙它可以這樣販賣只是因為它比較輕微嗎"},{"start":165.08,"end":194.179,"text":"還是只是因為它價錢比較低廉不是啊因為這一件事情追根究柢最近毒價那麼多很多人就講是說電子菸它可能是一個載具它可能用這個載具之後再摻雜其他的毒品然後變成是吸食器然後它就可以很方便的吸食然後之後造成毒價一步一步來嘛這完全不衝突我今天講說這個毒蟲它真的敢駕車上路然後撞死人了判處死刑我們支持"},{"start":196.918,"end":203.503,"text":"這個毒蟲趕西時然後上車上路開車這就不定時炸彈但是另外一個部分"},{"start":204.761,"end":230.78,"text":"源頭管理加強取締並且讓青少年朋友不要那麼容易取得電子菸這也是衛福部的責任啊這完全不衝突不是說我做了A之後就不用做B或做了B之後就不用做A不是是獨駕零容忍到目前為止多少人從兩三年前我們新北市的那個永景劉中興永景他查緝一個毒蟲到最後被這個毒蟲駕車撞死"},{"start":232.128,"end":251.167,"text":"到上個禮拜新北市也有等待紅燈騎摩托車後面被攔腰撞上然後到最後原來這個是獨駕那這一些都是源頭觀念如果說他比較難找到這一些稀釋的方式那他就比較容易好本席講那麼多其實我只是想要問的是"},{"start":252.717,"end":262.139,"text":"這都有罰則講了那麼多次那為什麼每一次都是貓捉老鼠講了做一動然後有下架然後之後他們又死灰復燃你不要騙我說沒有技術可管創意私房回來了嗎有沒有就講最直接的嘛我們那時候以前創意私房有這些未成年的性影像我們後來就立一個法結果之後他就他就不見了至少說沒有那麼好搜尋了"},{"start":283.786,"end":304.665,"text":"可是電子菸我這件事情我講的是不是它不是一個很困難的技術你只要打電子菸三個字就可以搜尋得到這是一個諷刺啊如果我打槍枝可以搜尋到槍枝官方網站我打毒品可以搜尋到官方網站那這樣不就是諷刺嗎那為什麼電子菸可以打電子菸三個字搜尋到官方網站市長"},{"start":321.689,"end":338.502,"text":"謝謝委員指教那我想在網路平台的部分那包括購物網站跟社群網站那這些我們也會再去做持續的加強那從12年到目前來說你如果說只是想要背書的話不用本席現在講的是Google直接搜尋他也不用社群了"},{"start":339.443,"end":360.836,"text":"他囂張到他不用社群他直接告訴你說你只要你想買我Google打電子驗官方網站賣你而且還可以你訂購之後直接寄送到便利商店便利商店直接取貨這個本席都已經質詢過好多次了我相信你們不是沒有印象但為什麼每一次都是這樣那公權力在你們手上"},{"start":362.291,"end":390.661,"text":"衛福部、速發部、內政部、教育部相關部會你們都有責任那我之前也講過拜託你們去找相關部會來開會速發部就用科技的方式遮屏嘛我至少讓一般民眾他沒有辦法買到如果說連一般民眾比較輕易的可以解決不要買到的話那你至少那個散播的網站就會少很多但他現在是公然是可以在網站買這才是現在最大的問題"},{"start":392.421,"end":420.559,"text":"可以理解嗎是那我們現在也有一個跨部會的平台那也已經有做這個一萬多件的採訪那我們會再持續強化做這樣一萬多件是從什麼時候算到什麼時候從一二年三月到那今年到現在咧對目前就是每一次都講這一萬多件算很多然後就原來是三四年下來那我就問現在獨家是今年特別飆升嚴重我們看到今年一到四月的那個獨家的比例明顯提升甚至"},{"start":421.741,"end":431.096,"text":"擴大臨檢有一天晚上就100件獨家那我想請教今年到現在我們開發了電子菸有多少件我們再提供詳細數字市長"},{"start":437.165,"end":457.907,"text":"本席今天站在這邊以一個父親的身份以一個立法委員的身份以一個中央民意代表的身份這件事情不是藍綠不是黨派不是任何政治這件事情是國民健康大是大非的問題沒錯沒錯這個確實齁這個我想這個問題毒害啦毒害不要每一次聽到都是這種官方文章你有沒有辦法做"},{"start":460.959,"end":483.278,"text":"來次長我點出來我等一下這個網頁我都可以直接送給你們拜託你們去看一下該開罰開罰該遮屏要遮屏來再來因為今天很感謝昭偉有提這個失智證的一個專法的一個討論喔劉建國委員剛剛用那麼多時間我覺得他只是沒有講出一點啦民進黨政府要做那你們的版本在哪裡"},{"start":485.185,"end":506.598,"text":"我剛剛特別看了一下今天衛福部的書面報告最後一段推動專屬的失智症基本法兼顧失智症融入社區生活與友善共榮的目標等等等等等等納入既有法令跟國家計畫架構中又保障失智症跟家庭照顧者的權利同時避免標籤化講得很好啊"},{"start":507.711,"end":532.745,"text":"但你也知道問題在哪問題就是現在跨部會的整合沒有一個可以收納的空間那你一直跟我們強調是說有綱領有什麼可是如果說有綱領沒法則那各部會還是各司其職他還是沒有把這當成第一優先順位為什麼很多的議題跨部會議題要設置一個基本法就是把大家都納進來用法明定下去讓大家知道權責相符"},{"start":534.346,"end":562.996,"text":"所以今天我們有看到國民黨團有版本民眾黨團有版本林業勤委員有版本但是我想請教行政院會不會出版本包委我們今天來就是聽那個大院這邊的一個想法所以什麼時候行政院會給版本包委我們會帶回去我們趕快來做要不要給版本我覺得昭偉很用心昭偉他現在已經排了巡打了那之後我們要進入主條的時候能不能看到行政院的版本還是行政院沒有版本"},{"start":564.824,"end":590.014,"text":"我覺得這就是重點了失智症的議題重不重要重要啊但是失智症不是長照失智症跟高齡也不相等長照政策是長照政策他是需要照顧的政策是長期照顧有可能年輕他就因為受傷因為等等意外所以他就需要長照所以他不一定年紀大高齡他年紀可能80年90幾歲他不一定失智"},{"start":591.129,"end":608.434,"text":"所以失智是有可能年齡的成長但是他的某機能的退化而造成失智他不一定完全等於長照也不一定完全等於高齡更重要很多人形容啊有沒有看過有一部電影叫日本的電影叫明日的記憶"},{"start":609.738,"end":628.866,"text":"他講的就是阿茲海默症他裡面形容一句話我覺得蠻傳神的他說失智症的狀況是0到100慢慢的從100走向0但是什麼時候會走向不一定他很像的是一個裝滿水的水龍頭水桶被打開了水龍頭滴水"},{"start":629.486,"end":644.705,"text":"所以它的功能會慢慢的滴流失我們要做的是把那個水龍頭給關緊但是你有沒有辦法在已經流失的水能夠再補水沒辦法以現在的科學醫學來講你是沒有辦法失智症屬於不可逆的狀態"},{"start":645.846,"end":665.206,"text":"但你可以做的是就當他在滴水的時候我們用其他的手段幫他把他的水龍孔關起來已經流失的水沒辦法再補回來但我們至少延緩他流失的速度以及讓他裡面的水能夠保持一定的水準所以讓他從正常"},{"start":666.503,"end":688.588,"text":"緩慢走向輕度輕度緩慢走向中度等等日本2023年開始討論所謂的認知正基本法其實就我們的失智正基本法到2024年他們正式入法提案我特別請同仁把日本的法令給相關提出來我沒有看條文但我把立法精神給整理出來這樣子的部分他其實強調什麼"},{"start":690.728,"end":704.882,"text":"共生社會社會要學習跟失智症者一起生活減少汙名化以及失智症本人還是有意願跟可以決定的就他有失智症但是他的嚴重程度可以"},{"start":705.973,"end":733.136,"text":"沒有說完全他就是沒有辦法參與社會的一個進行也因此他本人的意願以及參與政策還是可以來去做參考還有他的生活不是完全沒有辦法治理但他要怎麼樣被支持以及提早發現提早治療提早陪伴最後家庭的照顧失智症患者他的家庭的一個協助而不是只是單一個人"},{"start":734.137,"end":759.913,"text":"這一些都是日本基本法的立法精神但本席現在整理出來我只想問的是那如果說我們現在國民黨團民眾黨團以及綠營委員都有提出版本那我們在進入逐條審查的時候可以沒有行政院的版本嗎我們這個都會來廣徵各方的意見然後我們會來再回去再跟院這邊來做相關的一些討論"},{"start":761.584,"end":786.298,"text":"那我好那次長我想請教到目前為止還沒有辦法承諾說一定會有行政院版本或是會有衛福部的版本的理由是什麼就我剛剛說嘛就是理由是如果說大家都認為說這是要跨部會都要很重要然後基本法也確實它是一個方向因為台灣如果說高齡化社會那可能失智症相對比例來講可能只會多不會少"},{"start":787.218,"end":810.21,"text":"這個是一個趨勢我們也都會老也都有可能高齡社會大概的比例比較容易那如果說是這樣子我們現在要對付少子化我們要因應高齡化那我想請教到底衛福部現在你一直裹足不前不願意承認或是不願意提出你們的版本主要原因是什麼就是我剛剛說我們現在目前現有都已經有一些機制夠嗎"},{"start":814.468,"end":838.886,"text":"我覺得這可以來討論啦大家可以來討論啦市長我現在講的其實都是很理性的討論所以第一夠不夠嘛好現有機制夠不夠如果不夠的話就應該加強那加強基本法是一個方向對沒錯所以我說這個相關的這些選項所以如果說第一你沒有辦法回答我說現在的機制如果說你可以拍胸部保證就像剛劉建國委員靈魂考問說現在夠不夠有沒有罰則你們沒有講"},{"start":842.23,"end":867.098,"text":"那現在如果說假設是不夠了然後你又不願意推是怎樣怕說把責任殘忍在身上不是吧這當然不是啊那就對啦所以我說我們今天會來就來這邊來傾聽各方的意見嘛好那傾聽到現在有沒有哪一個委員跟你們講是說政府不用做基本法有沒有哪一個委員講說你們現在做得很好了不用了夠了很棒有沒有"},{"start":869.346,"end":896.755,"text":"那如果沒有的話能不能真的誠心誠意的建議本期在這委員會裡面我就是認識帶回去真的好好研究因為我認為即便是黨團出來的版本行政部門還是有行政部門通盤的考量可以由行政部門通盤考量出來一個院方的版本我們在一起逐條討論才有意義否則如果說是在逐條討論的途中變成是好像行政部門變上級機導單位"},{"start":899.827,"end":920.704,"text":"委員黨團的版本你每一條你都有意見但是我們真的說要怎麼做的時候你又沒有辦法有個具體的方向那這樣會很奇怪啊拜託次長拜託我們所有辛苦的衛福部同仁啊大家都做事但是真的把事情做好我想這才重要謝謝感謝委員謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員的資訊"},{"start":926.157,"end":929.108,"text":"賴慧園不在接著請"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:03.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:04.466000+08:00","text":"主席謝謝，麻煩請呂次長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:04.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:04.827000+08:00","text":"請呂次長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:05.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:05.567000+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:05.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:05.868000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:05.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:18.905000+08:00","text":"次長，本席應該是在這個委員會講最多次，電子煙我們現在是沒有合法……沒錯。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:19.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:23.448000+08:00","text":"任何販售、製造等等都有相關罰則。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:23.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:31.233000+08:00","text":"我今天上午也看到有委員提到是不是要研議連持有都要有罰則，部長也說會以最快速度研究。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:31.233000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:32.233000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:31.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:32.834000+08:00","text":"但最重要的是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:32.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:35.736000+08:00","text":"最重要的是電子煙取得為什麼那麼容易？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:37.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:43.337000+08:00","text":"為什麼電子煙在現在臺灣社會裡面用Google隨便就可以搜尋得到？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:43.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:46.379000+08:00","text":"這是本席一而再、再而三，從以前到現在就已經提到的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:30:47.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:30:59.527000+08:00","text":"這個畫面是本席剛剛要上來質詢之前一個小時，在Google上面打「電子煙」3個字，在第1頁搜尋就可以直接找到的一個網站。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:01.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:03.630000+08:00","text":"次長，要不要看一下裡面有什麼分類？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:03.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:04.951000+08:00","text":"鉅細靡遺啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:08.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:16.938000+08:00","text":"各種品牌、各種機子、各種煙油，以及多少錢。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:19.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:19.760000+08:00","text":"這個價錢是多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:25.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:27.948000+08:00","text":"從400塊到一千多塊不等，很便宜啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:29.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:29.649000+08:00","text":"可以馬上買到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:32.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:33.735000+08:00","text":"口味包羅萬象。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:34.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:40.497000+08:00","text":"這也是之前本席有講過的，就是有這樣的狀況，包羅萬象的口味。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:42.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:44.379000+08:00","text":"我們先不要看，不然還以為是在幫他們打廣告。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:44.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:31:45.519000+08:00","text":"莫名其妙！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:31:47.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:00.625000+08:00","text":"次長，本席想要講的是，過去我質詢數發部、質詢衛福部、質詢教育部、質詢內政部，因為都有相關權責，但主管機關還是在你衛福部。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:01.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:02.720000+08:00","text":"有沒有去處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:03.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:04.042000+08:00","text":"我必須要講，有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:05.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:15.576000+08:00","text":"當本席每一次質詢完之後的那一、兩個禮拜，真的搜尋不到；或者是Google找第1頁、第2頁、第3頁，沒有跳出來。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:15.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:19.420000+08:00","text":"可是一下子之後，他們又死灰復燃，又回來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:22.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:23.297000+08:00","text":"難道沒有辦法根治嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:23.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:23.798000+08:00","text":"我不相信！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:24.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:27+08:00","text":"以現在的技術來講，我絕對不相信沒有辦法根治。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:27.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:41.713000+08:00","text":"如果今天我們不允許毒品可以這樣子販賣，我們不能允許槍枝可以這樣販賣，那憑什麼一樣是不合法的電子煙它可以這樣販賣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:41.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:42.414000+08:00","text":"只是因為它比較輕微嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:46.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:47.981000+08:00","text":"還是只是因為它價錢比較低廉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:48.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:32:49.222000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:32:49.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:04.652000+08:00","text":"因為這一件事情追根究底，最近毒駕那麼多，很多人就講電子煙可能是一個載具，他可能用這個載具之後再摻雜其他的毒品，然後變成是吸食器，他就可以很方便地吸食，之後造成毒駕。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:04.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:06.393000+08:00","text":"一步一步來嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:07.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:08.154000+08:00","text":"這完全不衝突。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:08.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:15.159000+08:00","text":"我今天講，這個毒蟲他真的敢駕車上路，撞死人了，判處死刑，我們支持。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:17.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:23.282000+08:00","text":"這個毒蟲敢吸食，上路開車，這就是不定時炸彈。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:23.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:32.566000+08:00","text":"但是另外一個部分，源頭管理加強取締，並且讓青少年朋友不要那麼容易取得電子煙，這也是衛福部的責任啊！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:33.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:33.727000+08:00","text":"這完全不衝突！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:34.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:38.210000+08:00","text":"不是我做了A之後就不用做B，或做了B之後就不用做A，不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:39.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:40.372000+08:00","text":"是「毒駕零容忍」。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:41.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:51.760000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，多少人……從兩、三年前我們新北市的勇警劉宗鑫，他查緝一個毒蟲，到最後被這個毒蟲駕車撞死……","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:51.760000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:33:53.128000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:33:53.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:01.937000+08:00","text":"到上個禮拜，新北市也有騎摩托車等待紅燈，後面被攔腰撞上，到最後發現原來是毒駕。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:02.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:09.004000+08:00","text":"這一些都是源頭管理，如果他比較難找到這些吸食的方式，他就比較容易……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:09.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:17.898000+08:00","text":"好，本席講了那麼多，其實我只想要問的是，這都有罰則，講了那麼多次，為什麼每一次都是貓捉老鼠啊？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:17.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:19.638000+08:00","text":"講了，做一下，有下架，然後之後他們又死灰復燃。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:19.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:19.898000+08:00","text":"你不要騙我說沒有技術可管！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:19.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:20.058000+08:00","text":"創意私房回來了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:20.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:20.338000+08:00","text":"就講最直接的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:20.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:20.998000+08:00","text":"以前創意私房有這些未成年的性影像……","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:21.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:21.779000+08:00","text":"我們後來就立一個法，就那個……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:21.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:23.119000+08:00","text":"結果之後它就不見了，至少沒有那麼好搜尋了。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:44.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:53.734000+08:00","text":"可是電子煙這件事情我講的是，它不是一個很困難的技術，你只要打「電子煙」3個字就可以搜尋得到。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:54.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:34:55.316000+08:00","text":"這是一個諷刺啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:34:55.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:02.883000+08:00","text":"如果我打「槍枝」可以搜尋到槍枝官方網站；我打「毒品」可以搜尋到官方網站，這樣不就是諷刺嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:02.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:05.665000+08:00","text":"那為什麼可以打「電子煙」3個字搜尋到官方網站？次長？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:05.665000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:11.339667+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:11.339667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:17.014333+08:00","text":"無話可說，還是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:17.014333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:22.689000+08:00","text":"我請國健署這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:22.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:23.190000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:23.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:30.576000+08:00","text":"我想在網路平臺的部分，包括購物網站跟社群網站，這些我們也會再去持續加強。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:31.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:32.717000+08:00","text":"從112年到目前來說，已經有查核……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:32.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:35.059000+08:00","text":"你如果只是想要背書的話，不用！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:35.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:39.482000+08:00","text":"本席現在講的是Google直接搜尋，他也不用社群了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:40.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:47.307000+08:00","text":"他囂張到不用社群，他直接告訴你，只要你想買，我Google打「電子煙」，官方網站賣你。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:48.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:53.671000+08:00","text":"而且還可以訂購之後，直接寄送到便利商店，便利商店直接取貨。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:53.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:35:57.013000+08:00","text":"這個本席都已經質詢過好多次了，我相信你們不是沒有印象。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:35:58.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:00.055000+08:00","text":"但為什麼每一次都是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:00.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:01.816000+08:00","text":"公權力在你們手上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:03.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:07.653000+08:00","text":"衛福部、數發部、內政部、教育部相關部會，你們都有責任。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:09.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:15.115000+08:00","text":"我之前也講過，拜託你們去找相關部會來開會，數發部就用科技的方式遮屏嘛！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:16.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:20.177000+08:00","text":"至少讓一般民眾沒有辦法買到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:21.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:27.219000+08:00","text":"如果一般民眾可以比較輕易解決，不要讓他們買到的話，至少散播的網站就會少很多。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:28.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:31.661000+08:00","text":"但他現在公然可以在網站買，這才是現在最大的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:33.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:34.442000+08:00","text":"可以理解嗎？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:34.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:42.407000+08:00","text":"我們現在也有一個跨部會的平臺，也已經有做一萬多件的裁罰，我們會再持續強化做這樣的……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:42.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:44.268000+08:00","text":"一萬多件是從什麼時候算到什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:45.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:46.349000+08:00","text":"從112年3月到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:46.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:47.410000+08:00","text":"那今年到現在呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:48.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:49.891000+08:00","text":"目前就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:50.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:36:57.176000+08:00","text":"每一次都講一萬多件，有很多，原來是3、4年算下來，但毒駕是今年飆升特別嚴重。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:36:57.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:04.664000+08:00","text":"我們看到今年1到4月毒駕的比例明顯提升，甚至擴大臨檢，有一天晚上就有100件毒駕。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:06.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:10.533000+08:00","text":"我想請教，今年到現在我們開罰的電子煙有多少件？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林副署長莉茹","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:11.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:11.895000+08:00","text":"我們再提供詳細數字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:12.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:32.560000+08:00","text":"次長，本席今天站在這邊，是以一個父親的身分、以一個立法委員身分、以一個中央民意代表的身分，這件事情不是藍綠、不是黨派、不是任何政治，這件事情是國民健康大是大非的問題。沒錯！確實！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:32.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:35.343000+08:00","text":"我想這個問題……毒害……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:35.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:37.725000+08:00","text":"不要每一次聽到都是這種官方文章！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:37.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:38.886000+08:00","text":"你有沒有辦法做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:41.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:49.225000+08:00","text":"次長，我點出來，等一下這個網頁我都可以直接送給你們，拜託你們去看一下，該開罰的開罰，該遮屏的要遮屏。OK。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:49.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:37:55.711000+08:00","text":"再來，今天很感謝召委提失智症專法的討論。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:37:57.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:04.278000+08:00","text":"劉建國委員剛剛用那麼多時間，我覺得他只是沒有講出一點：民進黨政府要做，那你們的版本在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:10.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:25.977000+08:00","text":"推動專屬的失智症基本法，兼顧失智症融入社區生活與友善共榮的目標……納入既有法令跟國家計畫架構中，又保障失智症跟家庭照顧者的權益，同時避免標籤化。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:26.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:27.578000+08:00","text":"講得很好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:28.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:29.892000+08:00","text":"你也知道問題在哪啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:30.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:45.240000+08:00","text":"問題就是現在跨部會的整合沒有一個可以收納的空間，你一直跟我們強調說有綱領、有什麼，可是如果有綱領、沒罰則，各部會還是各司其職，他還是沒有把這個當成第一優先順位。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:45.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:48.882000+08:00","text":"為什麼很多的跨部會議題要設置一個基本法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:49.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:38:53.725000+08:00","text":"就是把大家都納進來，用法明定下去，讓大家知道權責相符。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:38:55.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:02.869000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們看到國民黨團有版本，民眾黨團有版本，林月琴委員有版本，但是我想請教行政院會不會出版本？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:04.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:08.611000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們今天來，就是聽大院這邊的相關意見，我們都會……","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:09.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:10.531000+08:00","text":"好，所以什麼時候行政院會給版本？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:11.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:13.452000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們會帶回去，我們趕快來做研議。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:13.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:14.313000+08:00","text":"要不要給版本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:14.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:15.553000+08:00","text":"我們會研議。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:15.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:22.515000+08:00","text":"我覺得召委很用心，召委現在已經排了詢答，之後我們要進入逐條的時候，能不能看到行政院版本？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:22.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:23.976000+08:00","text":"還是行政院沒有版本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:25.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:26.624000+08:00","text":"我覺得這就是重點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:28.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:30.286000+08:00","text":"失智症的議題重不重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:30.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:31.106000+08:00","text":"重要啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:31.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:35.368000+08:00","text":"但是失智症不是長照，失智症跟高齡也不相等。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:36.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:40.490000+08:00","text":"長照政策是長照政策，他是需要照顧的政策，是長期照顧。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:40.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:39:50.994000+08:00","text":"有可能年輕，他就因為受傷或因為意外等等而需要長照，所以他不一定年紀大；高齡，他年紀可能八十幾、九十幾歲，但他不一定失智。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:39:52.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:04.412000+08:00","text":"所以失智有可能隨著年齡成長，但是他因為某機能退化而造成失智，不一定完全等於長照，也不一定完全等於高齡。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:04.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:05.412000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:04.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:09.434000+08:00","text":"更重要的，很多人形容……有沒有看過一部日本電影《明日的記憶》？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:10.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:12.039000+08:00","text":"講的就是阿茲海默症。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:13.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:21.722000+08:00","text":"裡面有一句話，我覺得形容得滿傳神的，說失智症的狀況是零到一百，慢慢地從一百走向零，但什麼時候會走向零？","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:22.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:22.243000+08:00","text":"不一定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:23.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:35.693000+08:00","text":"它很像一個裝滿水的水桶被打開水龍頭滴水，功能會慢慢地滴、流失，所以我們要做的是把那個水龍頭給關緊。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:36.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:39.537000+08:00","text":"至於有沒有辦法讓已經流失的水再補水？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:39.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:45.705000+08:00","text":"沒辦法，以現在的科學、醫學來講，失智症屬於不可逆的狀態。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:45.705000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:47.086000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:47.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:40:53.693000+08:00","text":"你可以做的是在滴水的時候，用其他手段幫他把水龍頭關起來。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:40:53.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:10.564000+08:00","text":"已經流失的水沒辦法再補回來，但我們至少要延緩流失的速度，以及讓桶子裡面的水能夠保持一定的水準，所以是讓他從正常緩慢走向輕度、輕度緩慢走向中度等等。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:11.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:23.326000+08:00","text":"日本自2023年開始討論認知症基本法，其實就是我們的失智症基本法，到2024年正式入法提案，我特別請同仁把日本的相關法令找出來。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:23.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:28.428000+08:00","text":"我沒有看條文，但我就立法精神整理出這樣的內容。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:29.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:29.588000+08:00","text":"它其實在強調什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:31.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:42.038000+08:00","text":"共生社會，社會要學習與失智症者一起生活、減少污名化，以及失智症患者本人還是有意願以及可以決定的。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:42.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:41:56.461000+08:00","text":"也就是說，他有失智症，但是嚴重程度不到完全沒有辦法參與社會活動的進行，也因此其本人意願以及參與政策還是可以作為參考。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:41:57.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:07.090000+08:00","text":"還有他的生活不是完全沒有辦法自理，但要怎麼樣被支持以及提早發現、提早治療、提早陪伴？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:07.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:18.159000+08:00","text":"最後是對家庭的照顧，也就是對失智症患者家庭的協助，而不只是對單一個人，這些都是日本基本法的立法精神。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:19.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:33.248000+08:00","text":"本席現在整理出來，想問的只是：如果現在國民黨團、民眾黨團以及綠營委員都提出版本，在進入逐條審查的時候可以沒有行政院版本嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:33.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:40.913000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這些方面我們都會廣徵各方意見，回去與院做相關討論。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:43.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:52.890000+08:00","text":"好，我想請教次長，到目前為止還沒有辦法承諾一定會有行政院版本或衛福部版本的理由是什麼？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:52.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:54.791000+08:00","text":"報告委員，就如同我剛剛說的，到目前為止……","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:54.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:42:55.131000+08:00","text":"理由是什麼？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:42:55.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:11.320000+08:00","text":"如果大家都認為要跨部會研議、很重要、基本法也確實是個方向，如果臺灣是高齡化社會，以相對比例來講，失智症可能只會多、不會少，這是趨勢，我們都會老，也都有可能……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:13.381000+08:00","text":"沒錯，以高齡社會的比例大概比較容易。是。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:13.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:27.088000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，我們現在要對付少子化，又要因應高齡化，我想請教衛福部，現在一直裹足不前、不願意承認或不願意提出你們的版本，主要原因到底是什麼？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:27.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:31.210000+08:00","text":"委員，就如同我剛剛說，我們已經有一些現有機制……夠嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:35.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:37.670000+08:00","text":"我覺得可以討論，大家可以討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:41.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:44.234000+08:00","text":"次長，現在講的其實都是很理性的討論，所以第一是夠不夠嘛？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:44.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:45.895000+08:00","text":"現有機制夠不夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:45.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:49.238000+08:00","text":"如果不夠的話就應該加強，而要加強，基本法是一種方向。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:49.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:52.080000+08:00","text":"沒錯，所以我說相關選項我們都會聽。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:43:53.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:43:59.886000+08:00","text":"第一，你沒有辦法回答我現在的機制，你沒有拍胸脯保證，就像剛剛面對劉建國委員靈魂拷問現在夠不夠、有沒有罰則時，你們也沒有講。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:03.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:06.131000+08:00","text":"假設現在不夠了，你們又不願意推，是怎麼了？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:06.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:08.212000+08:00","text":"怕把責任纏攬在身上？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:09.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:10.172000+08:00","text":"不是吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:10.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:11.032000+08:00","text":"當然不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:11.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:12.032000+08:00","text":"如果是重要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:11.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:11.753000+08:00","text":"那就對啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:13.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:17.495000+08:00","text":"所以我說我們今天來傾聽各方意見嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:17.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:22.896000+08:00","text":"好，傾聽到現在，有沒有哪一位委員跟你們講政府不用做基本法？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:23.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:28.078000+08:00","text":"有哪一位委員說你們現在做得很好了、不用了、夠了、很棒，有沒有？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:30.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:39.289000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，能不能……我真的、誠心誠意地建議，本席在這個委員會裡都就事論事，真的請你們帶回去好好研究。好的。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:40.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:44:52.774000+08:00","text":"我認為即便是黨團提出版本，行政部門還是有行政部門的通盤考量，因此可以由行政部門通盤考量出一個院方版本，我們一起逐條討論才有意義。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:44:52.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:09.314000+08:00","text":"否則，在逐條討論途中，行政部門可能變成上級指導單位，對於黨團版本每一條都意見，但是我們真的討論要怎麼做的時候，你們又沒辦法有個具體方向，這樣會很奇怪啊！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-05-28T13:45:11.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:20.783000+08:00","text":"拜託次長、拜託所有辛苦的衛福部同仁，大家都做了事，但我想真的把事情做好才重要。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-05-28T13:45:21.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:21.524000+08:00","text":"感謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T13:45:21.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:21.684000+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T13:45:21.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:29.967000+08:00","text":"賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-05-28T13:45:29.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-05-28T13:45:30.108000+08:00","text":"接著請王安祥委員質詢。","quality":0.3}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}