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謝次長"},{"start":1732.258,"end":1759.576,"text":"訓練參謀次長是助理次長許永祥 許次長陸軍司令部陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉 薛參謀長憲兵指揮部文念忠 文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤 梁參謀長"},{"start":1762.387,"end":1778.303,"text":"資通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 吳永衍 吳副主任國防大學 李承忠 李教育長中科院 李士強 李院長"},{"start":1788.171,"end":1796.094,"text":"本次會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進今天應邀至大院委員會實施業務報告首先對各位委員就各項國防施政的支持表達誠摯感謝本次業務報告已"},{"start":1816.611,"end":1833.63,"text":"敵情威脅及國軍戰備國防施政要項為兩大面向進行說明 敬請委員指教就區域安全情勢部分當前國際戰略環境深受大國競合區域衝突等議題交互影響地緣政治風險持續攀升"},{"start":1834.691,"end":1849.432,"text":"俄乌战争仍成焦灼状态中东以下冲突目前达成停火及人质交换等第一阶段目标与此同时中共积极扩张区域势力企图提升国际影响力在台海进行常态化 灰色地带"},{"start":1850.333,"end":1870.143,"text":"清早形成區域安全嚴峻挑戰台海安全趨勢持續受到國際高度關注近期舉行之G7領袖峰會美日非三方峰會均強調台海和平極為重要顯示維護台海和平穩定已成為國際社會的共識就共軍動態與威脅部分"},{"start":1874.451,"end":1898.933,"text":"共軍於每月3至4次頻率執行所謂聯合戰備進行且各型基建漁業海峽中線平遲役逐漸攀升今年3月17日國軍首次徵獲共軍單日從事兩次聯合戰備進行4月1日至2日東部戰區從事海峽雷霆2025A軍演持續加大對台針對性威懾行動"},{"start":1900.114,"end":1921.949,"text":"此外,中共常態性偵派海警船,除測試我反應,以企圖達成其台海內海化目標。中共利用9月3日擴大閱兵,積極展示並宣傳各類武器裝備,意圖增加對周邊國家軍事威懾力度,以凸顯中共對印太區域安全穩定,以構成多重威脅與挑戰。"},{"start":1923.99,"end":1950.638,"text":"針對共軍與我周邊海空域活動情形本部持續籌建長航時至無人飛行載具提升國軍徵收範圍準確度同時透由共同情報圖像系統提升全面情報感知能力令藉由跨國交流合作管道前瞻區域情勢變化評估當前敵軍行動及未來可能行動模式爭取早期預警"},{"start":1952.386,"end":1970.562,"text":"就中共認知作戰與統戰部分中共對我進行認知作戰及統戰滲透企圖分化我內部團結近來更採取擴張對台行政管轄權的方式意圖壓縮中華民國主權行使空間如今年以來中共抹黑國軍執行企業罔工"},{"start":1972.263,"end":1997.603,"text":"並以舉報懸賞公告從事認知作戰意圖塑造其對台灣有法律管轄權的錯誤印象此外 中共對各階層人員實施無差別接觸之全面誘吸模式吸收少數限退役人員為其收請或協助發展組織此類滲透模式雖屬低成本運作 能構成重大威脅"},{"start":1998.752,"end":2021.481,"text":"面對中共認知作戰及統戰操作,國防部強化官兵愛國信念、敵情意識,並適時宣傳國軍重大演訓,強化國人對國軍的支持與信任。另外,防制中共滲透作為,今年定頒國軍社民人員安全調查作業規定,落實人員安全管控,防止境外勢力滲透。"},{"start":2022.521,"end":2038.149,"text":"就國軍戰備應處部分,針對共軍軍事行動及灰色地帶襲擾,國軍依威脅程度妥善派遣兵力應對,以確保領海、領空與國家安全。本部務實檢視國軍經常戰備時期、突發狀況處置規定、國軍戰備規定與聯合作戰計畫,使各種應變措施合乎時需。"},{"start":2045.592,"end":2068.612,"text":"今年1月休班突發狀況處置規定,即以中共對台灰色地帶關鍵軍事行動預警增核,區分低、中及高強度侵擾模式,使各單位各階層能針對各項突發狀況太陽均熟練處置權責及依據,並能密切協調、整體配合,發揮統合力量。"},{"start":2069.454,"end":2081.789,"text":"另外妥適應處共軍遊言轉戰之威脅針對中共宣告軍演及誣蔽警的威懾行動等洗腦國軍即開設應變中心啟動立即備戰操演派遣三軍部隊以實裝實彈進入戰術位置"},{"start":2084.861,"end":2102.113,"text":"在國防施政要項部分一 深化實戰訓練國軍以聯合作戰計畫為基礎自今年起除既有的漢光演習外增加立即備戰操演等五項聯合作戰演訓使共軍犯台各種可能行動具以發展"},{"start":2102.873,"end":2116.368,"text":"依共軍犯台各種可能行動距離發展演習想定,適切調節分配於2至9月時時,藉以維持高戰備至防衛作戰整備水準,持續深化實戰訓練及塗化狀況。"},{"start":2119.76,"end":2135.805,"text":"應儲能力在實際執行層面今年漢光41號演習首次增加灰色地帶洗澡行動應儲與重生重生防禦兵火力部署作為演練並致重點以動力動員戰力恢復效能"},{"start":2138.649,"end":2158.388,"text":"等重要科目驗證實兵演練期程由歷年的五天四夜調整為十天九夜於七月中旬完成晝夜連續操演訓練為聚焦實戰化訓練要求區域各項連戰演訓亦跳脫驗證計劃格局軍案共軍犯台各項可能行動"},{"start":2161.731,"end":2175.578,"text":"發展演習想定誘導酸金部隊以聯合作戰計畫為基礎驗測各級指揮官臨機決策參謀組織計畫作為以及支援與被支援部隊間聯合行動效能藉以提升"},{"start":2177.641,"end":2200.849,"text":"整體備戰成效二 廣出優質能力因應少子化趨勢國軍持續提升招募效益以軍校正級班為例年度計畫數1476元在各軍院校入力下獲得數1687元國軍將持續應用階段節點管制與資源分配確保如期如止達成年度目標"},{"start":2202.068,"end":2222.871,"text":"此外,鑒於敵情威脅日益增加,國軍部隊擔負戰備任務更加繁重,為展現對官兵的實質照顧,國防部整體檢視軍人待遇結構,自114年4月1日起陸續調整志願與加急等五項方案,其使官兵能安心服役。"},{"start":2224.092,"end":2234.856,"text":"為改善官兵服役環境本部亦積極推動國軍老舊營舍整建目前新安專案已完成87案另115年至120年執行嶄新專案規劃優先辦理官兵營舍及備勤大樓、植物宿舍"},{"start":2246.926,"end":2255.075,"text":"各級官兵亦深刻感受到社會各界對於軍人陸力戰訓守護家園辛勞表達的敬意"},{"start":2255.851,"end":2277.044,"text":"如交通部邀集國際航空公司實施軍人優先登機政策,形塑社會進軍文化,提升軍人社會地位,增進青年從軍意願。為此,專業人才長留久用,經陸力推動各項官兵照顧措施,年度期9月30日留營率為86.7%。"},{"start":2280.707,"end":2306.786,"text":"國軍將持續廣出優質能力以有效維持部隊人員實務經驗及專業職能確保國軍戰力有效發揮三 籌建武器裝備本部依照建構部隊戰力等戰力整建四大重點籌獲各項武器裝備除透過國內委制及商購手段取得針對國內無法自治項目藉由國外現貨市場或對美軍購管道籌獲"},{"start":2308.087,"end":2318.633,"text":"年度迄今已陸續後裝M1A2戰車海馬斯多桿火箭飛彈系統等不對稱防衛任性主戰裝備強化後備戰力方面籌建後備部隊單兵戰鬥裝備配護新式步槍等"},{"start":2328.092,"end":2347.379,"text":"汲取近代戰爭經驗,國軍已將無人系統裝備列為兵力整建重點發展項目。藉由國內民間廠商研發技術轉移或授權生產模式,大量籌貨無人載具,以提升不對稱作戰效應,增加用兵彈性,應處不同威脅。"},{"start":2348.439,"end":2374.016,"text":"目前軍用商規制微型幕後型艦載型無人機軍購籌貨者RT-600M攻擊型無人機以及反制無人機系統等均以今年陸續膠裝此外本部展示與美國合作生產無人載具以自動產品凸顯國防自主政策已見成效未來將持續健全軍工產業在地化確保國防工業供應鏈不受紅色威脅滲透"},{"start":2375.41,"end":2395.673,"text":"其中國際國造部分,新式高階機66架,其114年9月30日累計交機49架。國艦國造部分,新型救難艦1艘及高效能艦艇第一批6艘已交裝,高效能艦艇第二批新一代輕型巡防艦快速布雷艇後續艇持續管制辦理。"},{"start":2397.235,"end":2407.022,"text":"應潛艦國造延期限制114年6月起執行海上航空測試後續將在安全無虞確保品質之前提下逐步達成測試目標為積極應處當面"},{"start":2410.547,"end":2433.618,"text":"敵情威脅 本部依總統台灣之盾政策指導 整合現有防空系統 鏈結各式雷達等高效感知裝備 融匯為擊殺網可依威脅選派士氣攔截武器 形成多層次嚴密的防空之盾 確保我空防安全令會編列特別預算籌貨所需各項裝備 有效提升國軍整體戰力"},{"start":2434.87,"end":2451.944,"text":"四、調整組織變裝因應戰爭、作戰型態轉變等因素國軍組織調整以科技取代能力火力取代傳統兵力為原則配合各式無人系統及人工智慧輔助決策等新興科技導入以建置現代化部隊"},{"start":2453.137,"end":2471.709,"text":"在陸軍主戰部隊部分,自明年起,配合各式裝備貨裝,逐次調整聯兵、步兵旅及炮兵部隊組織邊裝,令各專區依任務特性及戰術應用,配合各型無人機,並新增無人機大隊。"},{"start":2473.01,"end":2499.63,"text":"海軍配合新式艦艇、無人機艇及岸置反艦飛彈貨裝結合陸岸單位及陸戰隊轉型以提升兵海打擊、禁岸水域與特種作戰能力空軍配合防空飛彈、陸用雷達及MQ-9B無人機貨裝調整防空戰管及飛行部隊編組守備及後備部隊則檢討配合各式無人機、自走炮及"},{"start":2500.888,"end":2503.014,"text":"自走火炮及人員運輸車輛等裝備同步調整編組架構"},{"start":2509.42,"end":2537.447,"text":"五 前瞻應用新興科技開源情報人工智慧等新興科技結合傳統載台建構之智慧化作戰體系在現代戰爭中殊微重要尤其人工智慧導入軍事領域大幅提升指揮決策系統及兼增預警能力本部後續將透過建立人工智慧輔助的戰場管理平台提升整體作戰效能與擊殺速度當前在先進國防科技研發方面自動重點於無人載具及反制徵收"},{"start":2540.014,"end":2547.723,"text":"另中科院加速研發簡單武器系統與國內廠商合作開發制項目包括寬頻固態 功率放大器等"},{"start":2549.229,"end":2573.822,"text":"共計27項關鍵技術令本部國防創新小組運用多種途徑籌獲新興科技產品規劃以115年籌獲溪流型無人機等裝備以小批量採購及測品驗證作為後續量產依據同時辦理衛星影像AI自動辨識等案公開徵集作業本部應用國科會產業化圓桌會議機制使國軍獲得"},{"start":2576.844,"end":2604.691,"text":"所需武器裝備同時促進民間產業發展六 居民整合及全民防衛韌性我國今年將全民防衛動員防空與關鍵基礎設施防護演習重新整合為2025城鎮韌性演習其中防空演習擴大驗證民眾實際進入防空疏散避難設施並首次將公共運輸生活消費及機關等場域疏散避難納入演練"},{"start":2605.811,"end":2623.543,"text":"全民防衛動員演習首次採食人食物方式與限地演練改變以往搭台佈景集中呈現更貼近實際情況演練聚焦維持國民生活韌性使民眾在災害來臨時維持日常生活秩序在軍事動員層面114年擴大人力動員"},{"start":2627.145,"end":2643.271,"text":"演習規模及人數演練動員力下達後備軍人報到等科目並結合戰術位置協同縣警消警民防團隊驗證全民防衛動員今年也首度驗證步兵兩棟六旅全旅動員效能將所獲參數作為精進動員準備參舉"},{"start":2647.173,"end":2662.487,"text":"在物力動員部分 在漢光演習 想定架構下下達增購 增用及生產轉換 遂行軍需物資 軍事運輸 軍需工業等動員作業以及軍民醫療系統整合運作"},{"start":2663.966,"end":2688.454,"text":"統合全民總力支援軍事作戰七 拓展友盟安全夥伴關係面對印太區域的戰略挑戰我國堅守自由民主普世價值深化對友盟國家安全交流與合作集合民主陣營力量集體嚇阻中共共同應對地緣政治風險國軍持續依據政策對話等十項"},{"start":2690.229,"end":2704.148,"text":"軍事交流目標深化與美國及其他友盟國家合作並拓展多邊軍事交流機制棄9月30日合計340餘案有效拓展各項合作領域強化與友盟國家"},{"start":2705.649,"end":2729.025,"text":"實質夥伴關係美國為我國重要戰略夥伴國軍持續完善台美溝通管道推進多領域多層次的防衛安全戰略合作逐步拓展及深化合作共同維護台海和平穩定為推展與有盟國家兼之軍事交流與安全合作國軍配合情報分享等領域的安全交流互動共同建構區域防衛機制"},{"start":2730.586,"end":2754.735,"text":"同時透過智庫交流拓展與各國學術學術及政策對話八軍法制度改革陸海工軍產法法及軍人權益事件處理法本部已完成相關執法之修訂等相關整備工作與同年8月6日施行高等軍事法院勤務法庭及地方軍事法院全保會亦同時正式運作"},{"start":2755.715,"end":2778.573,"text":"為建構符合憲法要求之公平審判原則及正當法律程序兼顧人權保障軍隊具力的軍事審判心智本部通盤檢討外社會各界對於軍事審判所提建議擬拒軍事審判法修正查案等法律予以7月31日呈報行政院審查中另外 遏止現役軍人對敵人"},{"start":2782.567,"end":2800.674,"text":"為宣示效忠之行為本部擬拒《陸海公園刑法》第24條修正草案並參採司法院法務部等相關機關意見以完備構成要件本修正草案已完成法制作業程序是行政院審查完畢送請大院建議列為優先審議方案"},{"start":2802.935,"end":2815.202,"text":"九 國防預算編列本部於總統政策指導並考量防衛作戰需求以施政重點妥善籌變預算以達GDP3%以上為目標展現自我防衛決心114年度國防預算按別月標準達9495億元佔GDP比例3.32%其中國防部規劃編列8060億元包括年度預算5614億"},{"start":2831.519,"end":2842.575,"text":"五千六百一十四億元基金預算新增新式戰機及海空戰力提升特別預算以及因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生關係"},{"start":2844.42,"end":2865.433,"text":"與強化防衛人形及部隊戰力規劃編列之特別預算在年度預算方面慈恆籌補各項裝備零護卷與彈藥維持武器裝備高戰備能力令軍事投資持續籌貨與汰換各式武器裝備有關115年度新增特別預算部分"},{"start":2866.013,"end":2881.545,"text":"一因應國際情勢強化經濟社會與民生國安韌性特別條例修正案規劃一百一十五至一百一十六年以一千零八十一億元建置居民自通作業環境韌性以設備效能提升等六案"},{"start":2882.385,"end":2905.174,"text":"另外因應中共正規與非正規軍事威脅以規劃強化防衛任性及部隊陣戰力計畫採購特別條例其借籌編相關預算以建構可視嚇阻戰力守護家園是國軍的使命與責任今年七月漢光演習適逢丹納斯颱風清洗基於中央及地方需求"},{"start":2906.114,"end":2933.152,"text":"檢派世界兵力局機具協同災害救援及復原工作採取演習及任務災防任務並行方式執行令針對本次花蓮光復鄉災情國軍以9月23日起協助執行災害復原工作是受災地區民眾恢復正常生活面對嚴峻敵情及極端氣候"},{"start":2935.089,"end":2953.593,"text":"災害威脅本部積極建軍備戰並務實推動各項重大政策持續提升國軍整體戰力以守護國家安全及人民生命財產所提各項重大法案及相關預算編列懇請各位委員先進支持及指導謝謝大家"},{"start":2963.735,"end":2967.141,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長現在補充介紹王定宇委員另外請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處那議事錄確定"},{"start":2980.559,"end":2995.729,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請王定宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":3017.754,"end":3046.833,"text":"是 王委員部長早幾個問題要請教部長第一個我們當然最近大概連續三波中共在點名懸賞通緝不管是軍情局 資通電軍或者新戰大隊等等當然這個做賊的很抓賊法律也不及於台灣那他的內容拼湊而來不見得正確這個我們都知道我就不重複了我要請教就是說畢竟他一直撈到了一些資料"},{"start":3047.814,"end":3058.592,"text":"我們國防部對於洩漏的管道還有亡羊補牢把這個洞堵上了沒有那現在是軍安總隊在管這一塊呢還是哪個單位在管這一塊是不是先請教部長"},{"start":3060.876,"end":3078.409,"text":"我想我們就這些任意拼湊的這些相關的資料我們第一個還是要說明這個是屬於中共認知作戰的一部分當然啦 產生一種心理規則所以我們的部分我們會要求這些這個"},{"start":3083.444,"end":3107.059,"text":"同仁在社群媒體上面在從事任何相關的這些發佈的時候不要做任何部長 賭上有兩個洞一個就是說他當然還是撈一些資料有的是從社群 有的是從個人的一些資料這個是過去已經發生的"},{"start":3108.3,"end":3117.62,"text":"那在未來我們對於機敏單位我們的軍事官兵他的身份的保密的強化你們有沒有準備備案出來了"},{"start":3118.069,"end":3143.968,"text":"對 現在就是會進行相關的一些進一步的保密作為包括研議利用運用化名的這個等等對 就是說我們不管就機敏單位我們自己知道啦當然我們不能全軍都用化名那等於沒有化名一樣嘛所以哪些單位要用化名來保護他的身分那我還是有個建議如果他在為國效力保護我們國家的情形下"},{"start":3145.249,"end":3167.069,"text":"這些軍事官兵也是我們的弟兄我們應該要保護他們所以他如果遭遇到類似的情形不管有或沒有這個對對岸準不準我們不說對於相關的保護還有如果遭致損失應該比照軍情人員給予相當的補貼我不知道我們國防部現在有沒有進行這樣的作業或者有沒有這個打算"},{"start":3168.4,"end":3193.111,"text":"我們會在第一時間對這些單位及官兵給予關懷輔導然後並且進一步採取適當的保護措施我舉個例子 比方說史頌文始終這樣他現在是局長 他被點名了那他本身也許是資安專家他退下來之後呢 他找工作開始遇到困難或者他在旅行的時候 我那天問國安局我們不是Interpol的會員 中國是"},{"start":3196.308,"end":3222.793,"text":"他把這個丟到裡面的黃色通緝名單紅色通緝名單的時候在旅行上會導致一些不便利還有一些風險那我們當然用化名來處理也是另外一種不便利他的資歷沒辦法去累積我的意思說就我們相關機敏工作人員他為國家犧牲付出那我們比照我剛才講軍情單位或者勤工相關單位有沒有適當的補貼的計畫有沒有這個打算"},{"start":3226.383,"end":3239.656,"text":"因為這些人員我覺得他們發布的有點狀況不太一樣因為有自動電軍也有這個星戰大隊對 星戰大隊自動電軍是應該是比照情報機關"},{"start":3241.457,"end":3259.527,"text":"那可能有相關的這些法制可以援引作為一個依據那新戰大隊的部分呢他並不是同情報機關所以我這邊我們今天沒有說要答案啦甚至有答案我們未必要在這邊揭露我建議部長跟相關單位去研議一下"},{"start":3260.327,"end":3275.616,"text":"如果這樣的情形它屬於勤工法規定的單位我們有沒有什麼適當的救濟或者補貼計畫那對於非勤工法的單位我們有沒有什麼樣的打算至少讓弟兄知道我在這個國軍的大家庭裡面為國效力"},{"start":3277.366,"end":3303.528,"text":"部隊有考慮到我考慮到我面對的風險那我這一個部分我希望我們國防部如果有這樣的方案的話適當的方式讓委員會知道那我們接到一些部隊一些想法反應的時候也可以幫你們做說明那另外事實上公布的有很多其實不是現役的人員並不是現役但他因為他現役時候的情形如果遭致損失我認為還是要給予關懷"},{"start":3305.438,"end":3328.925,"text":"他不是因為他自己的事嘛他是因為幫國家效力遭遇到這樣情形我們適度的關懷關懷的方案本席間沒有要求說一定要怎麼樣那你要有個方案出來讓他知道部隊有看到我這一塊這樣因為離退的人員將來回來也是我們的戰力啊他還沒有整個被除役嘛是 我們會來研議因為部長你本身也從國安會秘書長到國防部"},{"start":3330.847,"end":3351.184,"text":"針對中國解放軍的這些動作我們有沒有一些類似的制裁的反制美國做過美國把他們的軍備局局長他們的名詞跟我們不一樣美國把軍備局局長的海外資產還有他的遷徙旅遊列為制裁對象我們國防部有沒有考慮"},{"start":3353.737,"end":3374.897,"text":"我想就這個部分應該如果要討論這件事情的話我覺得應該是有國安會來協調因為中國在公布這件事情的時候據我了解也不是國防部在發布它是用發言單位 它在做心戰 認知作戰國務院還有公安局"},{"start":3376.999,"end":3404.726,"text":"他是用發布通緝的方式他有他政治目的他把他內政化那美國曾經就中國幾個軍備相關的單位進行制裁那我不是說我們要完全這樣做我是說思考一下跟盟友特別是美國這邊來思考針對中國解放軍威脅我們國家的安全傷害區域安全的情形下大家可以合作讓這樣子的人"},{"start":3407.089,"end":3411.78,"text":"這些賊要抓賊頭嘛把他點一下制裁一下"},{"start":3413.035,"end":3435.588,"text":"因為根據中國自己的統計資料他們的高官貴人海外藏的資產跟親屬是一大堆這個我是給部長建議這當然可以到國安會去討論所以有關這個相關單位自動軍軍情局等等這當然是一個認知作戰那我們一方面要穩定自己人的軍心另外一方面適當的反制作為"},{"start":3437.148,"end":3464.998,"text":"讓對方被點到的人他也會難過一下像之前美國空軍學院把他們的火箭軍所有的坐標連軍犬的訓練單位坐標都列出來隔沒一兩個月他們火箭軍從司令副司令到這個他們叫做子戰員通通都換掉了這個是給部長做建議下一個議題我要請教這個比較嚴肅了那個我們的邊線筆其實今天剛好主席給我們比較長的時間我們來研究一下邊線筆"},{"start":3467.219,"end":3492.55,"text":"我先請教部長我們對於部隊的邊線比有一個名詞叫做戰力域值英文叫ThresholdThreshold就是臨界點戰力域值我們自己國軍有沒有設定那個是百分之多少戰力域值這個是我們有關邊線比到達這個臨界點部隊就不太能夠拉出去了"},{"start":3493.174,"end":3506.208,"text":"委員好 我首先說明我們國軍整個目標 邊線比的目標是80%美軍的邊線比是多少 它的臨界點在哪裡85%啦 我幫你查了啦美軍的戰力訓練跟裝備應該比我們好"},{"start":3513.732,"end":3535.362,"text":"可他邊線比達到85%在美軍的定義這個部隊要研究為什麼發生這個事情這個部隊是沒辦法拉出去作戰的就是戰力減損的狀態那我們如果看一下我們國軍歷年的邊線比我現在邊線比還是用整體來除其實這樣除是不對的我應該看空軍的他負責維修飛機的"},{"start":3536.843,"end":3546.806,"text":"我海軍陸戰隊的我裝甲兵的那樣看會更清楚但是以平均數來看2020年我們整體有88.572021年到87.572022年到822023年到802024年到78今年大概我看是75上下一直往下掉現在目前是78.6你看78.6比你們自己設的臨界點80%也是比較低嘛"},{"start":3567.27,"end":3589.387,"text":"是跟委員說明就是說兩個方面第一個方面就是說從119年開始一直到現在其實每年的我們的編制數都是越來越多的其實我們現在的人數跟110你的意思是說我們的分母變大了我的編制有擴充我有增兵"},{"start":3590.047,"end":3617.012,"text":"是編制變大了但是蘿蔔坑變多了蘿蔔雖然沒有少但是坑變大所以數字掉下來嗎是那我們現在我們看西部數字這數字是你們的是你看一下我們以士兵來看機部單位72%炮兵68%你可以往下看這數據你們都看得到兵的部分兵的部分你看防空飛彈指揮部41%"},{"start":3621.428,"end":3648.188,"text":"好幾個單位55有69 67以美軍的這個叫做threshold臨界點來講85%我們沒有一個沒有一個達標耶以我們自己的80%來看是很嚴重的低喔事關的部分只有少數幾個單位勉強達標多數都在按照我們國軍的最低域值戰力域值就是最低標準限以下"},{"start":3649.595,"end":3652.67,"text":"為什麼士兵為什麼士兵特別低"},{"start":3654.088,"end":3683.323,"text":"跟委員說明我分三個方面來跟委員說明我們其實今年從去年到今年所有的成效都在逐步的提升沒有啊我看到數字是一年一年往下掉啊就是說除了編制數增加之外另外就是少子化我們在109年那個少子化我們20年前21年前少生的現在也不會補生啊少子化是一個區間那不是一年兩年我現在跟你研究的情形就是說你剛才講編制放大"},{"start":3683.783,"end":3696.998,"text":"我可以接受但那個精準的數據因為屬於軍事機密我沒辦法去算你的編制如果增加了2000人足不足以影響這個比例我是懷疑喔以統計上來看我現在是要你找出這個問題來你看像裝甲單位"},{"start":3700.542,"end":3719.861,"text":"裝甲是最需要專業的我一個戰車營要多少人我們曾經因為車長邊線筆掉到六成五以下第九屆吧當時我們就把哨位中位到上位他可以延到17年折優加三可以到20年"},{"start":3721.242,"end":3747.339,"text":"讓中衛 少衛的年輕軍官他不用擔心他升不上去 領不到終身縫他有個願景 我們希望穩定嘛所以你要找出病因來 我們才能找出解方你用錯的話 會產生什麼情形邊線筆不足 第一個戰力不足第二個我們現在很多高精的裝備在操作上專業性不足的人來操作 他的危險性會升高"},{"start":3748.917,"end":3775.398,"text":"會有這些問題所以你們到底有沒有研究過為什麼賓的部分特別低跟委員說明我們今年的數據我用今年數據來跟委員做說明不市府在112年是5400113年是5057元但是今年到現在10月份是2600多元也就是說不市府我們到目前為止比去年同期減少1400這個叫流盈率嘛是流盈率"},{"start":3775.638,"end":3799.53,"text":"你們流營率沒有降 你們流營率在86%以上這是不適服的 那流營率我們部班標準是76去年部長來的時候採取很多人性化的管理措施之後我們去年的流營率是82 今年到目前為止是86對 我印象你流營率 流營率到86好事老兵長留久用 戰力強可是我們的邊線比較往下掉就代表什麼問題"},{"start":3800.885,"end":3827.226,"text":"招募沒有募新的進來跟委員報告因為我們如果拿3月的邊線比是76.9的話現在的邊線比78.6所以我當然希望我們還是朝向更好的方向發展那是第一點第二點的話就是說有一些當時在討論各項佳績的時候就有討論到說哪些部隊的邊線比是"},{"start":3827.566,"end":3845.097,"text":"所以這個就是我要最後建議的結論所以我們當時才會在這一個從4月1號開始我們調升這個志願家族之外主要就著重在這個戰鬥部隊的他在不同的家族留下我們要的戰力嘛所以部長因為時間超過了我還聽說一個現象我們駝江籍的邊線筆經"},{"start":3851.758,"end":3854.141,"text":"低於50% 有沒有這個現象海軍這邊 駝江級我們這個最新的這算艇啦 800噸上下的 艦啦"},{"start":3864.864,"end":3893.419,"text":"海軍參謀長那個駝江級它整體的邊線大概會落於大概70到72有到70到72沒有低於50低於50會嚇到營養數字應該是有些船的士兵那因為士兵數的確是有些船的士兵數會多跟少但我會按照任務來做編倍跟調整所以我建議部長跟我們軍總第一個把那一個戰力域值也就是那個臨界點在每個單位可能要把它當作一個科學來研究"},{"start":3894.259,"end":3921.17,"text":"美軍是85%但他每個單位還不一樣到這個單位低於那裡對戰力就有減損的時候我們該做什麼作為這是第一個第二個我們4月1號或者過去這麼多年來其實國軍的薪資我聽了很多專業的將領在講薪資不是齊頭式的問題而是透過專業的加擠在特別辛苦或特別需要或特別專業的地方透過加擠把人才留下來"},{"start":3923.171,"end":3950.205,"text":"這個部分其實我倒希望國防部提出一個方案跟我們委員會大家來討論我們都希望加薪但是每一分薪水每一分預算用在對的對國防有幫助的那這個我今天有關編線筆花了一點時間跟部長這邊討論我們未來繼續再探討這個話題我們希望看到你們提出一些改善的方案我想不管在招募或者不釋乎或者留營率或者是有關這個全面檢視整體檢視軍人待遇我們都會持續來進行謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":3952.301,"end":3952.902,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3983.195,"end":3988.118,"text":"主席好即便是簡單的圖檔下載因為那個高解析度還要耗點時間這個有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":4001.082,"end":4019.333,"text":"是 陈伟部长您好听完今天您的报告这个内容中间有许多是我们值得持续强化加强当然还有很大努力的精进空间那我栽取了几个部分的议题向您就教是不是也请副总长执行官您也方便一起"},{"start":4027.06,"end":4040.425,"text":"今天的内容报告中间提到了在今年的4月1号2号中共执行海峡雷霆2025a那么它是例行性的海空联合战备警巡任务"},{"start":4043.032,"end":4071.661,"text":"他设定了目标方法手段意图在孤立台湾方法是解放军完成外线包围海警执行内线的隔离那么当然也是区域拒止让外力无法进入海海这里面我要向国防部持续建议精进的就是我们目前已经在做共同图像了但是这个共同图像的运用上还有精进的空间像左边这个图就是把国防部公布的图"},{"start":4072.861,"end":4098.064,"text":"顯示出來那這是媒體運用國防部的圖做出圖那下面這張圖就是把海圖航圖經過校正把鄰近日本的防空識別區他的所有的對空雷達涵蓋範圍套疊上去那麼這個山東號航艦出來的一個顯示那左邊這個圖就是剛才國防部的這張展示圖"},{"start":4101.42,"end":4114.051,"text":"回到這個裡面就要請教一個問題了因為這張大圖的比例是1比300萬分之一所以如果把展示圖套疊上去的那個海沙中線"},{"start":4116.11,"end":4143.712,"text":"0.3公分實際上它就相當於9000碼這個時候我們的空軍這個防空監偵就要掌握雷達的誤差那麼有的時候中共在這個所謂的中線它是打擦邊球希望耗損你的戰力我們希望監控的過程能夠做更精密的掌握這一點我們是希望把這個東西不只是在國防部的各聯參要運用"},{"start":4145.885,"end":4150.094,"text":"尤其是在國防大學的教學的方向這種方法"},{"start":4151.314,"end":4180.299,"text":"尤其是講灰色地帶 灰色區塊這個要納入教學共同圖像未來一定是取代了我們現在傳統的UTM的紙圖現在國防大學還在精進這個紙圖還是2000年的這種圖希望能夠在教學方面能夠加快進展因為要導入AI的技術一定要從教學開始而不是從部隊去運用"},{"start":4182.341,"end":4198.357,"text":"这张图是今天早上7点40分在金门外岛所有海域上显示的这些商船其实现在你用手机你就可以查在这个时间内早上7点40的时候"},{"start":4199.847,"end":4227.724,"text":"有四艘中华民国的船到金门去也有三艘外籍商船其中有四条船他把AIS关掉了这里面有可能是中共海警船进入但是有17条的中共商船在我们的禁县制水域内活动那这种情况下是不是就是侵犯了我们的所谓的管辖权因为这个是在外岛水域了"},{"start":4229.087,"end":4254.577,"text":"我想請教一下這個站在國防部的立場或者聯參的看法我們是如何協商我們的海巡部隊提出警告這裡面還有將近十七八條中共的船在我們這邊下茅這個時候它是排隊等待進廈門港但是它並沒有獲得我們同意這個時候我們國防部作出什麼樣的回應"},{"start":4257.233,"end":4269.02,"text":"跟委員報告我想就相關的海警或者是這個民兵漁船的這些部分我們會跟這個海巡署建立這一個相關的"},{"start":4269.867,"end":4298.04,"text":"情志共享然後也通報的機制所以我們會持續的應用我們所有的聯合行政手段來我們一起來掌握那針對這個海警跟民兵的部分現在的按照這個相關的這個海上任務中資源協定書的話是先由海巡這個執法單位優先處置那我們會派遣適切的任務件來做一個資源這樣子"},{"start":4298.76,"end":4317.748,"text":"那现状当然就是说我们主要还是要我们共同来守护我们这个海疆这个里面有一部分它是玉石它在里面产生滞留了那甚至这里面打符号是打圆圈的就是它全部在这边毛破了"},{"start":4318.669,"end":4334.262,"text":"那理論上他不應該在我們家的前院後院停車那他下茅他其實吃豆腐他排隊要等得進廈門港他這個停留時間很長甚至他有時候排放污水等於說污染了我們的海域那這個時候"},{"start":4335.936,"end":4349.236,"text":"就不只是海巡應該要執行執法因為我們站在國防部的角色這個權責禁限制水域是我們的權責所以平常跟海巡的協商因為這個時候我們的軍艦並不會進去"},{"start":4351.92,"end":4376.967,"text":"我想海軍了解在金門外島境線之水我們的軍艦除了外島的補給艦進去以外我們的作戰艦艇並不進入的所以這個時候要有一個調節的空間就是說掌握它它持住了多少我們要回報另外在上面各位看一下那個廈門的祥安機場在今年的年底到了明年初就要啟用了那麼它是完全比照"},{"start":4378.163,"end":4393.198,"text":"上海浦东机场它是一个国际机场规模非常大那它的这个起飞下滑道不管是动四动两两动它有很可能它的飞机民航机会进入了我们的近线制水域甚至从金门上空飞过去"},{"start":4394.039,"end":4415.001,"text":"基于人道精神及非安我们当然不会去用用其他的手段去去这个制造危险但是在航管跟民航局跟我们站管的协商部分这个我提请我们要强化这个部分因为这也是一个灰色区块尤其是玩弄国际法的行为因为刚才"},{"start":4416.162,"end":4435.877,"text":"也特别讲掉了他把台海未来内海化这个内水化跟这个外岛状况不一样其实我也建议我们不管是在联餐都要应该把1982年联合国的海洋法公约有关公海自由航行内海内水的定义"},{"start":4436.678,"end":4461.808,"text":"这个连参要有那么在我们的国防大学三个子参学院还有法律师都要把这个拿出来叫这是一个国际法的灰色区块根据Article33到47里面都有强调台海是公海不能因为中共片面的解释就变成内海化我想这个部分我们要在国际法的部分要持续强化"},{"start":4464.904,"end":4486.071,"text":"共同图像现在我们知道国防部在持续精进尤其是通知传输媒体任性那么不管是我们讲的将来的卫星 低轨 海澜这些东西都在强化但是地面也要发展非地面网络的串联这次在救灾过程中间我们也很"},{"start":4488.572,"end":4508.378,"text":"正面的看待我们的国军救灾部队已经能够用Google Map的图结合手机用WiFi的方式能够掌握但这个东西安全性能后面还大家自己要持续精进这个是俄罗斯的国家的指挥中心它这种的图像从作战区"},{"start":4509.218,"end":4536.43,"text":"到这个就是说国家的最高层级甚至救灾防灾他通通可以做一个显示那这个是未来我们要努力精进那因为有不同的信号来源不同的时间友好国家所以不同的时间不同的区块不同的行为不同的位置不同的动向最后经过整合产生一个给长官做决策客观的共同图像那这个是在今年救灾啊二零"},{"start":4537.51,"end":4565.945,"text":"25年9月25号我先显示一个我们虚拟的战情那么有各种图像选择最主要就是你透过云端或者你的网络你战略情报要有操控台各种征收器 通讯操控台还有摇测无人机回馈的台还有云端监制 卫星 动态情报做一个我相信国防部现在已经在强化这个部分但是现在你要跟结合下面是什么呢"},{"start":4567.045,"end":4577.598,"text":"就是栽房了以后我们要看到的是整个栽房的情势就是像这个"},{"start":4578.735,"end":4606.15,"text":"马太安西或是这一次燕子口这个方案如果溃堤或者撤侨撤离居民这个部分等于说我们的国军跟地方甚至中央救灾中心是分享共同图像这一块我们还可以共同努力那这个是一个方法论我想连二部分或者是我们官部已经在进行这个部分那最主要就是强调未来的人工智慧"},{"start":4607.947,"end":4619.392,"text":"它的本質是要能夠特定目標的設計周遭環境的因素要有信任感 解釋性 驗證度 確實性能夠提供接近戰場實際的充分資料"},{"start":4622.642,"end":4640.019,"text":"那人工智慧的决心实际上它并不能取代指挥官这个在教学里面还是很重要我们希望不管只参教员或者是先进的单位都要有这个课程而不是现在大家都用手机都会用这个AI付钱不付钱是另外一个手段"},{"start":4640.62,"end":4667.613,"text":"那麼另外就是現在強調的我們的台灣盾要整合現有的所有的武器裝備透過不同的Sensor還有美方未來提供的資本因為今天您的報告講提到了有C5ISR我建議再加一個T就是Targeting因為現在物貨的時間越來越縮短可以交換的情資也是越來越短所以最後就是"},{"start":4668.772,"end":4697.542,"text":"用AI但是我们要为最终的结果负责要很踏实地做不是口号式的照镜环节兼构绝对不会有漏网那最主要就是要确认我们指挥层级还有操作层级哪些是在链路中间main in the loop on the loop那低层授权的out of the loop我希望我们在这个部分AI的运用构想上要大家一起努力持续精进部长请您回应一下"},{"start":4698.796,"end":4714.155,"text":"在軍民的這個部分我想結合EMIC這個部分是我們現在正在努力的目標當然我們賄賂的部分應該是非機密的部分所以軍民融合作為"},{"start":4715.516,"end":4731.967,"text":"政府的一個全政府的決策系統這個部分正在討論也在努力當中那另外國軍本身的部分我想地面的部隊我們現在已經有實際上大家也已經有看到就是所謂的台灣戰術網路這個部分在作為地面"},{"start":4732.918,"end":4761.564,"text":"的數位圖資掌握整個部隊動態跟部隊的即時資訊這個部分我們也正在努力那關於整體防空的這個部分就是說如何從sensor到shooter有一個對各式的sensor跟武器做個整合然後並且導入這個戰場管理系統來做協助那我想這個部分也是我們正在努力的方向廖部長大家共同努力持續精進謝謝"},{"start":4768.434,"end":4771.937,"text":"接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是 羅委員好"},{"start":4788.522,"end":4804.117,"text":"是部長早部長有關於這個前幾天那個某個週刊這個媒體呢有踢爆就是大器海洋區的局長種種荒謬的這個行為那我有看到就是海軍司令部其實也有出面做了一些澄清"},{"start":4804.978,"end":4822.528,"text":"就是說像報導裡面有提到的收集演訓時候的機密的資訊、上改春節的戰備的輪值,然後是讓中資的背景公司入營等等,還有營區的男女混入等等,這些都是屬於不實的報導。"},{"start":4823.829,"end":4829.078,"text":"那唯一呢可能就是違反治安規定的部分呢做這個檢討試處那個參謀今天剛剛也上來了你們這個確實都已經做過調查了嗎"},{"start":4836.504,"end":4855.37,"text":"我想跟委員報告 我想這樣子 現在是一個海軍的初步調查那我已經請我們的光部的總督察長要介入來由光部的層級來進行一個整體的調查那我們做完整體調查以後 再跟各位委員報告"},{"start":4856.252,"end":4881.941,"text":"所以目前還在調查當中因為我有看到的就是只有違反治安規定這部分會來做檢討因為指控真的是非常的嚴重結果的這些指控現在變成都是不實的目前要檢討的部分就是只有治安的這個部分所以說因為我剛剛在提到說你們有提到就是說什麼東西是不實什麼東西不實可是有一個部分我有注意到就是說它供"},{"start":4882.941,"end":4900.811,"text":"公然要求LINE來傳輸這個機密的部分我們海軍司令部這邊好像並沒有否認是不是確實有做過這個動作嗎LINE的部分當時應該是在有設一個群組但是沒有如看起來沒有如"},{"start":4901.591,"end":4922.367,"text":"外界所講的有涉及到漢光演習這個部分但是它還是違規所以是在去年的4月3號不是今年7月是去年應該是前一兩年在漢光演習以前它就已經要求就是說把一個這個群組就解散了"},{"start":4926.191,"end":4952.466,"text":"對 他們那時候就是跟艦隊指揮部這邊開會然後要求把機密的資料傳到他私設的未加密LINE群組所以這部分是有的是不是就是說有這樣的一個群組但是在去年的4月3號就已經解散掉了我想請教一下他這個所謂私設的LINE的群組是在他自己私人的手機還是公務機"},{"start":4954.047,"end":4967.755,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告他這個公務群組其實是針對海上氣象的傳遞跟氣象通報資料的一個在他們公務群組那這個公務群組在依照規定是有簽核來執行"},{"start":4970.905,"end":4995.881,"text":"那但是就是因為在成立這個四個多月中間那局長可能覺得相關的訊息還是試射一些比較不太適合公開所以他在四個月後他把這個群組就關了那後面就會用我們這個一個另外一個管道來做所以它裡面的機密也不是焊光的機密只是一個水文收集的一個任務使用的一個運用的一個部分的一個資訊"},{"start":4996.881,"end":5010.487,"text":"因為我們現在討論的是有關於這個資安會不會外洩那當然你說可能這內容都還好因為他還是違反這個相關的自動安全規定所以我們還是會來予以這個溢出"},{"start":5012.608,"end":5031.127,"text":"是 是 OK那本來就不能夠用這個LINE我剛才一直在強調就是一直在問你們就是說到底他用的是私人的手機組的群組還是公務機因為你們有區分嘛你不是有公務機跟私人的手機嗎所以這部分還不了解因為這個是有不同的層級的嚴重性耶"},{"start":5032.208,"end":5060.134,"text":"跟委員報告我是連六次長針對這些群組是用私人的手機那私人的手機可以按照我們的規定可以建立公務群組來做公務協調那組織的成員他是需要經過單位主官的核定裡面要有治安長還有保盤官來確定我們一般做業務協調非機密資訊的內容是才可以做協調機密的資訊是不能不能夠在這個"},{"start":5061.954,"end":5081.146,"text":"群組裡面上傳的 以上報告好 那現在我們還是要檢討這個資安因為我剛才為什麼我會提到說公務跟這個私人我們今年9月24號通過了資通安全法的修正將政府公務及部的使用高風險中資APP的明文正式入法"},{"start":5082.006,"end":5105.216,"text":"那可是私人的手機並沒有做相關的規範嘛我們只針對公務機嘛那剛剛我們所提到的靈性的這個局長他用的是私人的手機來傳遞那私人的手機可能他會下載一些所謂的剛剛所提到的眾志的APP小紅書啦 微信啦"},{"start":5107.114,"end":5127.072,"text":"之類的這些軟體也許他的私人的手機或是TikTok等等如果他用這個私人的手機傳Line雖然說你說這可能看起來沒有什麼機密的資料可是這個是不是會不會因為他用私人的手機所以很有可能這些資料會被"},{"start":5131.817,"end":5136.211,"text":"上傳到境外的這個伺服器有可能嗎"},{"start":5138.26,"end":5166.857,"text":"我們我了解現在的相關規定就剛剛連六次長有提到的就是說有公務學校的需求而設立這些群組的話那奉核定以後呢是可以使用那就傳遞跟業務有關但是沒有涉基民的資訊那另外就要含這個治安長跟保防官嘛那負責管制跟集合這個群組內容然後所以你們認為說你們已經有從從把關了定期每月來實施清教這樣子"},{"start":5168.138,"end":5189.882,"text":"所以這個部分是有一個規範的你們覺得這個就不太可能會有把機密資料傳送到境外的疑慮你們覺得這樣子是OK的但是我想各單位還是要我們定期或不定期要來落實督檢這個部分還是要來做"},{"start":5190.27,"end":5217.847,"text":"我覺得還是要加強因為你都知道說這是這個有現在是有資安的問題這個可能要就是要來做檢討那再來還有就是這個預算這預算的部分那當然媒體有說一個兩百多人的一個單位因為它畢竟是一個幕僚單位不是這個不是一個作戰單位它是個幕僚單位結果呢它這個在這次的這個韌性預算裡面它就編了17.5"},{"start":5219.568,"end":5242.435,"text":"5億的這個預算 他們就覺得說 欸 到底因為說實在啦 像這個大氣海洋局 像如果不是因為這次爆出了這件事情的話 其實很多人都不曉得所謂的 我們還有一個大氣海洋局的這個存在 因為他來 比如說我們來做這個詢答的時候 也沒有做練習之類的 所以我們想知道就是說這17.5億的這個編列是合理的嗎"},{"start":5247.519,"end":5269.489,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告大氣局主要就是負責我們整個台海周邊我們有關軍事的海域的海洋的監偵水文探測海盜測量還有一個相關的軍用海圖圖資的一個運用還有一個即時對於我們周邊可能的颱風預警跟其他的一個整合"},{"start":5270.089,"end":5288.986,"text":"那他也負責了我們相關的一個環境的作戰資訊的一個資源所以他這個17.5基本上我們他未來因為他的這個功能跟未來他負擔的角色跟著我們目前的整個這個軍事調整跟任務的調整他就必須在未來的"},{"start":5290.148,"end":5307.207,"text":"資源情報作戰的一個能力要提升另外他有關的相關的一個圖資跟海域中心的建增所以我們預計是要針對這三個中心來做一個整建那整建的部分所需的部分大概就是"},{"start":5308.328,"end":5322.576,"text":"主要就17.5億是有一個三個中心的一個設置大概是這樣那委員如果比較細部我大概再讓您辦公室再去針對部分再做對 我覺得這部分可能要解開一些疑慮因為現在報導其實還滿長的尤其報導還提到說他有提到說短時間幾張紙就能騙到好幾億哇 這個是怎樣這個是很誇張了吧"},{"start":5333.563,"end":5350.118,"text":"抱怨這個應該是不實報導所以不實報導為什麼呢因為他這個都有證人都有什麼A先生B先生C先生然後D小姐之類的這些人都是我們都是我們國防部內部的人員嗎這些人有知道是誰講出這些東西如果是不實的話這些人應該也有法律上的責任吧"},{"start":5351.338,"end":5378.933,"text":"到底有沒有講我們現在目前也是在繼續在清查中但是有有提到他有提到有些他跟某些人比較特定查但是我們也了解他當初那個進到營區來說是一般傷情的一個水下的這一些資料收集跟信號傳輸的傷情他這個傷情基本上跟我剛才講的17.5以三個案子都沒有關係也沒有直接涉入那也沒有相關那這個"},{"start":5380.934,"end":5406.246,"text":"進入到營運這個人也從來沒有跟大氣局有任何投標或其他的其他的採購的案件那這些的都是一般的一個轉介傷情其實這兩件事情是分開的確是不實的指控所以我們不方便在那邊還沒有結束以前講太多但是今天委員提到我們就必須要做一個比較跟委員做一個陳述那相關這個案三個案子的一個建案跟規劃我們會到委員在那邊再做一個清楚的報告"},{"start":5406.946,"end":5433.615,"text":"OK 我是在想說因為這報導真的對整個國軍的傾向其實是有很大的傷害尤其我們現在要省預算我們這種高額的預算我們不能說因為這件事情影響了整體所以這部分如果可以儘早調查儘早釐清 儘早澄清的我想這部分都要儘早來說清楚好 那大家最後一題本來講到就是男女官兵請示"},{"start":5434.935,"end":5460.723,"text":"混著的這個部分 因為你們這邊說其實這個好像也是報導有誤那當然這部分 我們當然還希望說不管是國防部也好 各個單位我們還是希望能夠提升性別意識跟管理的這個水平那再來呢 下一個我可以簡單提一下因為他這邊講是一個聘僱人員的"},{"start":5461.983,"end":5477.216,"text":"正常的軍事官的男生女生宿舍都是合於規定分開的那他今天講是一個聘僱人員的中午休息的那本來安排是在另外一個正常的地方那個地方應該在那裡但是因為那地方有漏水"},{"start":5478.257,"end":5497.303,"text":"漏水完之後房間不太適合他們就把它調整在另外一個休息室那那個休息室不是提供住宿只是給住宿那個聘僱的人員中午吃便當休息一下之後這邊站待那裡有警監走道也有一些安全機制他的東西也可以上鎖其實這個部分並也是不屬實際並沒有說"},{"start":5499.344,"end":5525.243,"text":"那就是一個中午休息的地方所以嗎 因為我有看到你們的所謂的澄清其實都是輕輕的帶過很多細節我們也不是不了解只是說 講的這些都是不屬實那哪裡不屬實 其實沒人知道我想我們國防部的立場還是我會請我們總隊長本於勿枉勿縱的精神我們會來徹查嚴查然後再給社會一個交代"},{"start":5525.923,"end":5532.371,"text":"對因為我們覺得說這件事情確實是有眾措國軍的這個形象所以還是要儘早來澄清跟說明OK好以上謝謝好謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5556.046,"end":5564.832,"text":"先前這個共軍的動態和部長討論過了那過去在談這個共軍犯台的可能時間點的時候往往會參考這個戴維生窗口所指涉的這個2027年"},{"start":5580.492,"end":5597.026,"text":"的部分但是最近美國總統川普在受訪的時候他認為中國打算在2027年入侵台灣的部分他認為是不可能近期解放軍內部高層的"},{"start":5599.073,"end":5618.112,"text":"狀況動盪不安過去在市中全會召開的時候包括中央軍委副主席何衛東還有前政工部主任苗華以及東部戰區司令林向陽等9名上將被開除黨籍"},{"start":5619.178,"end":5648.005,"text":"國安局先前也透露有半數以上的上將超過半年沒有露臉實際上被整肅的人數有可能更多那解放軍內部的整肅清洗尤其涉及到負責台灣的軍方高層部長怎麼評估他們對於共軍的整備以及對於台灣作戰的相關影響有沒有觀察到共軍任何異常的跡象"},{"start":5649.864,"end":5666.304,"text":"我們是來看整個徵喉還有共軍隊我們進行的相關的一些演訓活動來做一個分析我們觀察共軍隊台還是維持常態的"},{"start":5667.125,"end":5693.669,"text":"一個戰演訓的活動沒有異常的現象那而且他的軍事壓迫跟洗腦的這個狀況也沒有因為何為東林向陽等等對台作戰的這些重要成員的落馬有所影響所以我想我們呃國防部還是會掌掌握這個就是應用多元的管道跟聯合勤進手段來持續來掌握相關的這個敵情變化我我們"},{"start":5694.605,"end":5702.66,"text":"我們要完善我們的整個的疫警徵喉的判斷而不是單純的在看他這個內部人事的動盪而已"},{"start":5703.991,"end":5725.394,"text":"那這部分也請我們國防部跟我們情報單位能夠持續的掌握了解這個解放軍內部情形及相關的動態這應該是對我們國防部最最為重要的一個部分那另外在我們這個新式的武器籌貨方面我們首批的這個海馬士多管火箭系統以及"},{"start":5726.014,"end":5749.073,"text":"M1A2T戰車都在去年運抵台灣其中海馬仕已經在7月正式成軍但是在戰車的部分只有公開實彈射擊的操演我想請教部長第一個M1A2T作戰單位的成軍我們是否已經有掌握到確切的時間點"},{"start":5750.994,"end":5767.77,"text":"我們第一個贏的這個陳軍的典禮是我們會在10月31號因為他在接受這個戰力車運之後那正式陳軍在10月31號會舉行一個陳軍典禮戰車的部分M1A2就10月31號對"},{"start":5773.795,"end":5797.491,"text":"好 那另外我們在7月份戰車實彈射擊當天有靜態的展示我們衰兵用的穿甲彈當時引發一陣討論但是在美國所公布的軍售方案當中並沒有這款彈藥我想請教我們部長國防部在後續是否會有另外購得這款彈藥"},{"start":5798.712,"end":5807.067,"text":"的這個可能還是已經在構置其他的這個穿甲彈考量或是相關的規劃"},{"start":5808.241,"end":5834.28,"text":"向委員報告我們在這個瑞捷專案裡面隨裝我們也構置了有六型的包含到這些高爆彈還有一吻脫殼的穿甲彈那這些都依照我們的這個交裝的期程來實施交運那也都有到已經到隨著要成軍的單位也都入庫了"},{"start":5835.04,"end":5844.607,"text":"那在後續的部分因為還會有社訊上面的需求不管是練習彈或是實彈穿甲彈也都有納入後續的後維的持續採購規劃好那我們"},{"start":5849.198,"end":5867.585,"text":"這個也看到這個國防部預算在去年底所提出的一個不對稱作戰的這個特別預算將會分七年來編列但實際的這個規模應該還沒有定案由於這個特別預算會有多項的這個軍購同步進行那我們對美軍"},{"start":5870.855,"end":5888.684,"text":"對美國的軍購又高度的仰賴美國政府的參與針對這個部分我想還是請教部長美國政府目前處於停擺的狀況什麼時候會恢復運作還不曉得這件事情對我們軍購案的執行有沒有具體的影響"},{"start":5891.502,"end":5919.372,"text":"如果是已經執行了執行中的就是說這個軍購案的部分因為他還是說必須要劃分必要跟非必要人員如果是必要人員還是要來上班那這個必要人員就包括了軍人所以執行中的這個軍購案我想是政府跟政府之間的"},{"start":5920.239,"end":5932.901,"text":"也跟組合業上完整合約簽署那這個美軍這個他本身會對這個各軍購案執行中的軍購案項成立專案管理辦公室所以這個部分是不會有影響"},{"start":5933.908,"end":5955.287,"text":"那我想還在談的這個部分我們會密切關注他的這個情況就是說我們現在要提出來然後正在執行這些雙方來進行相關的一些構案的必要程序這個部分我們會來持續密注他們的聯邦機構的這個狀況"},{"start":5961.312,"end":5977.53,"text":"就是執行中的這個還會正常的運行對 已經執行中的應該那只是在洽談中的洽談中或是還沒有執行的這個應該要走一定的程序這個部分我們會來一直不斷的持續來跟他們來進行討論"},{"start":5979.892,"end":6006.982,"text":"好這部分再請我們國防部再繼續追蹤那我們戴總統在國慶演說上也宣誓要打造我們這個台灣之盾那固然是我國防接下來非常重要的一個政策也牽涉到我們這個防空武器的這個籌貨和系統整合所以也看到國防部即將納入在接下來要提出的這個特別預算當中不過"},{"start":6007.842,"end":6036.475,"text":"我們要面對的是共軍打造低成本的這個遠程火箭炮能夠從福建沿海直接攻擊到台灣由於會大量消耗我方的這個防空戰力也可能會造成嚴重的這個威脅那我方似乎還沒有很好的一個這個應對的方案那我想再請教部長就是台灣之盾會是我們應對共軍遠程火箭炮的一個這個解方嗎還是"},{"start":6037.642,"end":6050.352,"text":"我們國防部有其他好的策略來因應我想總統提到的台灣之盾他最重要的就是說我們要整合各式的政策器"},{"start":6051.435,"end":6073.175,"text":"這個所謂的Sensor然後到各式的這個Shooter就是各式的防空武器那麼雙方整合那麼透過一個鏈結之後我們形成一個擊殺網那所以這個鏈結各式的這些偵測器融會為各種武器形成的這個擊殺網當然是有"},{"start":6075.377,"end":6097.213,"text":"是全方位的多層的然後是這樣的一個整體飛彈防禦系統那反制遠程火箭作戰應用的策略跟系統結構當然是我們重要的一個建軍的方向不過現在因為相關的部分還失策集名我想就可能不方便在這裡公開好"},{"start":6100.196,"end":6122.495,"text":"日前我們國防部中副部長到美國出席國防會議的時候在接受訪問也有提到我們國防部必須整合現有的防護系統以及直通訊系統也與美方討論具體的合作方案希望能夠幫忙來整合台灣的"},{"start":6123.596,"end":6145.334,"text":"相關的這個防空系統那對於這個防空系統的整合我們中科院與這個美商合作開發的這個IVCS整體作戰指揮系統是否已經啟動而我們是否已經得到美方具體的一個承諾將會來協助我們整合有沒有這個可能"},{"start":6146.175,"end":6172.717,"text":"委員問的是指中科院跟那個美商洛格公司的那我想這個部分就由中科院來回答一下好我們在九月份已經簽署了合作備忘錄這個備忘錄的內容就是針對美製和台製防空系統來進行整合那因為雙方簽有保密協議所以相關洽談的內容是已經在進行中但是我們不方便對外公開進行中了"},{"start":6173.809,"end":6194.198,"text":"我想還是跟委員補充一下有關整個飛彈防禦系統的整合應該是台美共同努力的目標啦我們這個部分如果有具體成果再跟委員做個說明好那另外對於這個無人機的運用無人機的運用我們已經討論一段時間了也是很多這個"},{"start":6195.879,"end":6222.461,"text":"民眾在關心的一個議題我們看到這次這個國防部的這個夜報當中特別提到在各作戰區我們將依任務的特性及這個戰術的運用配附各型的無人機並新增無人機大隊那我想請教我們陸軍對於這個無人機大隊的這個架構及邊桩是否有能夠公開說明的這個部分"},{"start":6224.283,"end":6237.259,"text":"向委員報告我們這個依照剛剛業務報告裡面各作戰區編設的無人機大隊那我們是現在已經開始在依照他主要還是要依據我們整個"},{"start":6238.3,"end":6253.108,"text":"武器或裝備獲得的期程來依照節點來編程那我們是管制在明年7月以前來全部完成成編那至於細部的編組規劃下去可以到委員辦公室向您做說明好"},{"start":6254.409,"end":6281.087,"text":"那相對來說我們對於這個無人機的這個大隊的建制應該也要了解到這個敵方在無人機上所擁有的相關資源我們對於這個共軍目前無人機服役的情形以及他部署的這個規模還有資源相對較少的情況下我想請教我們部長那對於這個共軍無人機的這個編組尤其是對台灣"},{"start":6283.187,"end":6300.765,"text":"的威脅還有它攻擊型的這個無人機它的規模以及數量我們國防部有沒有相關掌握的情質所以跟委員報告整體的這個防空的防禦這個防禦系統事實上就要包括反彈反擊跟反無人機"},{"start":6302.106,"end":6320.16,"text":"所以我想我們對於相關無人機也會有一定的規劃那在我們的要提做特別預算裡面也會有就反制無人機的這個部分來做一個規劃然後也納入我們整體防空裡面的一環"},{"start":6322.254,"end":6336.094,"text":"對共軍的無人機狀況我們有沒有掌握對 我們當然我們的相關的這些單位都會就中國的無人機的一個發展都有一個綿密的一個"},{"start":6338.977,"end":6365.873,"text":"收住跟延期好最後一個就目前這個無人機的這個操作人員還沒有這個專業專門的這個加急那隨著我們各部隊這個接裝之後無人機的操作的這個人力需求也應當會隨之提升那如果接下來要鼓勵更多的人才能夠來學習操作這個無人機我們也要鼓勵專業人員能夠長留"},{"start":6367.854,"end":6390.362,"text":"人才長留久用那國防部有沒有研議對於這個無人機的這個飛手也納入相關的這個加急的可能首先第一個就是說因應組織變裝的調整我們要將這個戰鬥部隊的定義要做一些調修那所以無人機大隊應該也是戰鬥部隊裡面的一環所以他可以領戰鬥部隊加急"},{"start":6391.192,"end":6420.509,"text":"那至於有沒有另外要針對這個在另外的價格我想這個必須要整體要來考量研議因為每一個人都會有操作相關的這些高專的這個部分那所以這些部分的加急要做一個整通盤的規劃我們要留人才我想這個部分應該國防部要去審慎的這個評估應該適當的加急就要加急"},{"start":6422.056,"end":6434.739,"text":"好 以上謝謝好 謝謝等一下沈博洋委員質詢 質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請國防部長及中科院的院長請顧部長還有中科院院長"},{"start":6457.606,"end":6486.722,"text":"是 黃委員好部長好那個針對今天中科院的改革的轉型那我想請教一下我們的院長中科院過去有許多長期結構性的一個問題的存在而且這個監察院都在糾正那例如財務以標案管理透明性的不足缺乏這個競爭機制官僚的文化"},{"start":6488.154,"end":6515.877,"text":"科技成果轉移民間的移轉力非常的低等等的問題我想中科院院長你來回答我這個問題您提到了有關監察院指出的問題確實就是中科院前一陣子一直存在的問題那我道任這個職位我們也是針對這樣子的結構性問題來做改革我想"},{"start":6516.857,"end":6532.965,"text":"你根本就沒有能力改革嘛你到了去年去年的七月份到現在你改革了什麼東西啊你改革了什麼東西官僚作風你到現在都還是官僚作風你替國防部做了什麼事情啊"},{"start":6536.158,"end":6563.96,"text":"不少人認為你到了中科院最主要的工作之一就是協助中科院的改革的轉型但是轉型了沒有本身想了解一年多來中科院在你的領導之下是否有新的氣象新光三任 三八活你的三八活因應了原來的這些官僚作風你把這個報告改革了改革了什麼東西"},{"start":6564.821,"end":6578.491,"text":"把這個報告趕快給我這一份委員沒有問題我一個禮拜之內可以給委員這份報告中科院近期對無人武器系統的發展特別的重視但過去有不少民間廠商認為"},{"start":6580.632,"end":6609.894,"text":"中科院以民間廠商在無人機與無人艦量產以協作方向的黑箱壟斷的餘力那在去年的產業監察院因應糾正國防部和陸軍司令部督導的不周在辦理偽製戰術型進程無人飛機的載具在載具的案中發生主艦對外採購的過程不合理的"},{"start":6611.158,"end":6633.269,"text":"不合理的評選包含十位評委中有六位是中科院的自己人那三位入境士官外聘學家學者只有一位同案中垂直起降無人機製作等三項採購但評但別"},{"start":6637.649,"end":6659.941,"text":"評選委員評分一場的高度將近百分之百百分之九十五點五五且評選優勝者還採用私標廠商協力廠商的光學產品交貨所以等等的問題你再改革了沒有後續我再問一下請教"},{"start":6662.007,"end":6688.769,"text":"產協界也反映中科院廠商在量產階段與民間廠商協作但自身又以子公司或關係企業參與這個就是求嚴兼裁判求嚴兼裁判你有沒有做到現在改革方向方針到底求嚴兼裁判還存在了沒有你回答一下"},{"start":6689.309,"end":6718.559,"text":"我要很簡單回答第一個從我去年上任之後中科院原本的五家子公司現在中科院沒有任何一家登記在案的子公司這是第一個第二個中科院委員剛剛提到的去年三月份陸軍第二代進程無人機的標案那是由陸軍司令部當時所做的決策那當時因為這個標案它在第一代是由中科院生產的所以當時陸軍考量到延續性所以它在標案裡面的委員的確有聘請比較多的有關中科院的委員"},{"start":6719.199,"end":6739.091,"text":"但是中科委員的委員在評選過程中間我們也從來沒有針對我們自己或是有任何協力廠商去做任何的私相授受的行為我想這個標案到現在有沒有具體的規範排除類似的狀況 有沒有有 我答應給委員把這些報告也給我把這個規範都給委員"},{"start":6740.592,"end":6753.061,"text":"好 那去年的外交部林部長林部長率團台灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟出席在立陶宛舉辦的無人機產業論壇之後就傳出中科院計畫將以具備的無人機設計授權國內業者"},{"start":6765.33,"end":6782.922,"text":"那業者若獲得訂單中科院再依產量取得權利金目前中科院執行的狀況如何收到的權利金有多少你回答一下各位報告我們現在經過國安部核定"},{"start":6783.857,"end":6804.952,"text":"已經可以釋出的技術就是總共有九項那這九項技術我們現在是開放給業界來認領那業界跟我們連協商的合約都還在簽署當中所以說目前還沒有任何權利金的收入我們目前所有收入的部分是我們替國內無人機業者所做的技術服務去年"},{"start":6806.073,"end":6826.167,"text":"外交部林部長都率團到立陶宛那你應該現在授權給國內的業者應該要收取的權益金到現在一個都沒有九項是檯面上的九項檯面下的九項另外你執行的沒有這就是你執行的能力問題嘛部長"},{"start":6828.499,"end":6850.477,"text":"如果他沒有這個能力的話該換了啦重新的把中科院提振提升能夠更好如果今天中科院長沒有這個轉型的能力的話也應該重新思考是不是呀還有更好的人選台灣的無人機裡面"},{"start":6852.466,"end":6866.236,"text":"載機的產業發展不如中美起步也稍晚了一點其實包含日韓 日本跟韓國也發現在這個領域上如果無法做到精密的合作"},{"start":6867.27,"end":6884.082,"text":"很難有所成就既然無人機艦現在是中科院的重中之重如果之前的弊端如果沒有完全的排除將不利於我們未來發展的領域好 已發展所以部長"},{"start":6885.239,"end":6900.3,"text":"你能不能回答一下剛剛以上這一些的種種中科院過去的弊端包含以軍民合作的立場上是不是要改進改變部長你來回答一下"},{"start":6901.449,"end":6925.663,"text":"我想剛剛院長有提到了像現在中科院的五家子公司都沒有了就沒有沒有再有子公司這個狀況存在這第一個第二個就是說科技成果向民間的移轉那我們現在也在督促中科院要盡量的移轉這些技術那我也督促軍備局要加強督導這個部分所以我們現在不斷的在研"},{"start":6926.983,"end":6944.672,"text":"這個中科院可以去做計轉的這個部分所以中科院也在努力的在進行當中那其他相關一些我想院長已經做了一些的改革之後他剛剛已經同意就是說因為詳細的部分在於書面跟委員做一個報告這樣子"},{"start":6945.732,"end":6973.114,"text":"因為中科院是以具有目前來講無人機包含艦的部分來講是一個重中之重要轉型要改型提升這是一個非常重要的一環中科院不能夠再跟過去一樣官僚文化的作風因為今天來講國防部長有責任監督那對國人來講當然要有交代"},{"start":6974.395,"end":6988.244,"text":"那另外就是關於中科院院長請回我想請教一下部長今天的報告中提到了明年陸軍將新增的無人機大隊海軍陸戰隊66旅戰車營也將轉型為無人機營"},{"start":6995.549,"end":7014.838,"text":"本席在今年六月曾經就陸軍將成立首次無人機部隊提出書面的質詢指出根據美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲的挑戰在於無法完全適應戰場的轉型"},{"start":7017.699,"end":7026.813,"text":"那美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲這個以傳統部隊完全協同任務根據"},{"start":7031.321,"end":7050.734,"text":"這些傳統部隊在與地面部隊是不是有協調性的共同的一個協調因為目前來講據說還沒有各做各的希望了解國際對無人機部隊的相關信念作為不當"},{"start":7051.374,"end":7071.287,"text":"不過當初給本席的回覆是陸軍表示目前只有人員操作無人機的訓練還沒有進行到相關的戰術的訓練那參謀長回答這個問題好不好我們是不是連山來回答一下就這個相關的"},{"start":7072.782,"end":7091.908,"text":"我想無人機有一個整體的規劃我們包括有訓示室來負責的相關的一些無人機的訓練那整體的這個作戰的整體的無人機的整體的規劃也有一些好 委員好 我是作機室次長跟委員報告 我們無人機是先從作戰運用規劃來去規劃整體的構想"},{"start":7095.149,"end":7124.211,"text":"接著會依照不同的包含尖針型 攻擊型無人機並且整合到我們現行的精準武器還有各軍種的制式的武器怎麼結合整體的作戰應用來形成多層次的擊殺鏈因此依照這樣子的作戰應用我們在國防部已經測班了一個作戰區無人機的作戰應用的一個準則並且再交由各軍種依照他的戰術任務的執行來去測班他作戰應用的準則跟教則"},{"start":7124.952,"end":7146.559,"text":"必須去執行訓練那這個相關的訓練規劃都在各軍種的訓練班隊還有現在成編之後無人機的大隊各單位的無人機的編組會持續向下做細部的發展好 向下待會我要問你你們後續的進度如何本身發現很多人在看待國防部容易產生一個誤區"},{"start":7148.18,"end":7165.134,"text":"就是擁有武器就代表擁有戰力但是其實戰力的來源之一是如何以戰術發揮人員和武器的優勢那因此本身想請教無人機大隊要成立除了飛手養成外"},{"start":7169.741,"end":7179.731,"text":"硬要還要包含什麼在含電維護員資料分析人員和指揮官這些人員是否已經開始著手培訓"},{"start":7181.089,"end":7201.904,"text":"有沒有左手裴信跟委員報告我們是以無人機的到最小是一個無人機的小組那這裡面當然包含到組長 監偵的操作手跟攻擊手還有後勤的這個操作手所以他是一個整體的編組那至於他整體編組的各部的執行作為跟後續的訓練建議這個私下再跟委員做報告"},{"start":7202.384,"end":7229.225,"text":"無人機的部隊要形成一個大隊了但你們現在都還沒有著手尤其是航電維護員包含資料分析員因為你的飛機你的無人機在整個在飛航當中的時候取得了很多很多相關的資料回到這個地方要恢復你們給你們一個答案資料啊可是你們現在連這個都還沒有著手那什麼時候著手"},{"start":7230.425,"end":7244.953,"text":"跟委員報告一下事實上我們海軍的瑞淵無人機目前在您提到的這些項目裡面它已經是既有的編制人員那針對比較複雜的部分事實上是未來MQ-9B的這個部分"},{"start":7246.073,"end":7267.37,"text":"他會給我們帶來全新的這些訓練的功能那這個部分我們初期的人員的選訓已經開始進行那從明年年初開始我們就會把總指教官送到美國去接受從航管一直到電子等等各方面的訓練這些國防部這邊他都有一個完整的規劃好 那個主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":7268.382,"end":7279.217,"text":"那個無人系大隊成立在一起除了目前非所的信念是否已充足也想知道各司令部是否已經無人系的戰術戰術教範跨軍種的是否已經有"},{"start":7284.283,"end":7305.143,"text":"這個連戰的叫飯那無人機是否在未來戰場的主流讓無人機的部隊形成戰力必須要有充足的準備從基礎的平台操作緊急程序安全作業到終極的任務規範流程徵收程序終據的"},{"start":7309.613,"end":7326.778,"text":"這個連管理電池對抗再到高級的地面火力空防電子戰整合任務即時的聯絡流程等所以這個就是你們現在本來就要準備要著手"},{"start":7327.738,"end":7341.062,"text":"該信念的該怎麼樣的趕快無人機的成立大隊不是一個開玩笑我們花了這麼多的一個公帑我們應該要積極要著手趕快來整合部長"},{"start":7343.576,"end":7361.776,"text":"跟委員報告我想現在你講的無人機大隊是指陸軍的無人機大隊但事實上無人機型態是非常的多樣剛剛我們站位是提到了像MQ-9B這個是屬於空軍在運用的高高空的無人機"},{"start":7363.49,"end":7383.508,"text":"另外有關這些針尖型的不管是瑞淵或者是濟江瑞淵2這些等等它的運用本來就我們有這樣的一個尖針型的無人機的一個配附跟編制那相關的這些陸軍的無人機是比較屬於路面"},{"start":7384.088,"end":7407.1,"text":"操作型一二型的這個無人機所以這個每個層級的一個交換都會不一樣那我們都陸續已經在進行當好不要到時候成立了只是一個形同形式上的一個空殼無人機的部隊我想你們趕快因為後續我會追蹤你們的進度你們著手"},{"start":7407.88,"end":7420.585,"text":"信念整個過程應該要再我再來我再來下次我再來追蹤好不好以上謝謝謝偉謝謝黃仁委員的質詢各位長官請回座先喝杯水下面我們請馬文君委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":7439.994,"end":7441.455,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長是 馬偉好部長好 今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億"},{"start":7465.617,"end":7494.031,"text":"漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛"},{"start":7495.505,"end":7519.121,"text":"我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經"},{"start":7519.901,"end":7539.263,"text":"非常嚴重的落後在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促 督管我們的進度在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位"},{"start":7539.904,"end":7564.36,"text":"那我們也實際去廠裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個二無戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在"},{"start":7566.061,"end":7590.83,"text":"它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中"},{"start":7591.73,"end":7615.371,"text":"那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要全數交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險"},{"start":7616.877,"end":7623.239,"text":"所以其實蔡部長你剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出廠儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的說今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些"},{"start":7646.945,"end":7674.483,"text":"狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在三月跟六月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到四個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的"},{"start":7675.84,"end":7688.45,"text":"包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工連假日也在趕工這個是陸陸續續因為"},{"start":7691.673,"end":7716.794,"text":"他在牽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是"},{"start":7719.036,"end":7727.563,"text":"那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎"},{"start":7730.348,"end":7757.531,"text":"這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年是我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對"},{"start":7759.872,"end":7774.684,"text":"到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回這個主計長是不是有要說明"},{"start":7784.918,"end":7809.576,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範再看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定"},{"start":7813.559,"end":7828.52,"text":"以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也訂頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定"},{"start":7829.341,"end":7847.971,"text":"在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席因為其實你的"},{"start":7848.812,"end":7869.53,"text":"國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊那因為"},{"start":7872.312,"end":7882.098,"text":"我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的"},{"start":7899.744,"end":7909.628,"text":"那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的騎乘"},{"start":7917.631,"end":7920.173,"text":"所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙"},{"start":7940.962,"end":7956.877,"text":"報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備整備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的"},{"start":7959.259,"end":7965.603,"text":"邊線還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用變特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年"},{"start":7989.159,"end":8006.447,"text":"就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行"},{"start":8008.348,"end":8035.076,"text":"你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算1000多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的機率這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是"},{"start":8038.154,"end":8052.284,"text":"部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的"},{"start":8054.727,"end":8069.354,"text":"所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎"},{"start":8080.661,"end":8099.363,"text":"他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款"},{"start":8100.543,"end":8103.725,"text":"支付這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款"},{"start":8126.776,"end":8145.057,"text":"現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬"},{"start":8148.7,"end":8153.982,"text":"這跟現在民間的商船跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船可是跟剛剛的戰力是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來如果"},{"start":8164.046,"end":8168.508,"text":"193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪"},{"start":8186.156,"end":8188.077,"text":"就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久"},{"start":8200.988,"end":8210.334,"text":"可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們它非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰它罰一年兩年對它來說它明年還是轉虧為盈啊"},{"start":8226.244,"end":8253.365,"text":"是 包委員很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合約合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來所以訂定出來這個"},{"start":8255.306,"end":8258.529,"text":"雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部"},{"start":8279.144,"end":8283.886,"text":"都說這個節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把他罰到他的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦他到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果他必須要做非常大的變動的時候他甚至不是原型艦你後續艦"},{"start":8303.195,"end":8318.306,"text":"都已經是重新建造所以這是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來也是希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到"},{"start":8321.144,"end":8339.24,"text":"所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成"},{"start":8340.461,"end":8342.803,"text":"多一點時間 部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎"},{"start":8360.114,"end":8364.376,"text":"如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的態度到時候幫我們做認證它的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對軍購也好"},{"start":8386.408,"end":8409.768,"text":"我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館"},{"start":8413.291,"end":8415.892,"text":"他從設計變更 他罰了300萬可是又多給了8000萬 甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的"},{"start":8431.519,"end":8451.091,"text":"而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好"},{"start":8451.721,"end":8470.396,"text":"所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員的質詢下一位質詢的委員是沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8493.404,"end":8494.006,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":8502.671,"end":8529.18,"text":"是 深圍部長好因為我們今天清晨我跟定語委員才剛回來從台美的這一個國防工業會議裡面當然有很多我覺得是滿重要的事情但是因為這個是很多跟預算比較有關係等於這個總預算的時候我們再多來討論我再問幾個比較偏向時事的問題第一個當然就是還是我們這個灰色地帶的一個侵擾我最少想問"},{"start":8530.66,"end":8557.131,"text":"這個空域跟海域的這個空域的有兩點我想問一下第一個當然就是在六月跟八月的時候都各有一次都是這個醫療專機這個醫療專機受到影響之後這個其實確實的其實已經造成一個很大的困擾但我也比較好奇的一件事情就是第二個我想問的就除了我們的一般的因應措施之外就是說其實在這一個海外應該看起來像是境外的一個報導"},{"start":8558.311,"end":8584.419,"text":"有特別去放了一些假消息說這一個醫療專機其實是專門要去蒐集什麼情報等等之類的這樣的一個假消息那目前來講像類似像對這樣的一個應對我是有看到這一個應該是安捷航空他自己有發聲明那國防部目前來講對第一個就是說對於這種灰色地帶的應對目前的這個處置還有像這個對方在後續又再放假消息的處置是大概是什麼"},{"start":8585.53,"end":8602.64,"text":"我想相關的事件的情況是不是先由秦次次先做一個說明委員好 我是秦次次長我們掌握到的當天的確有這個事情發生這架飛機它是在民航的管制底下因為是安捷航空"},{"start":8603.26,"end":8627.786,"text":"他原本就是要到金門地區去做這樣子的訓練前後的確有發生過這個事情不過這架飛機它是按照民用的飛航規則在民航的管制底下進行飛行所以我們也不認為說這樣子的在民用的飛機遭受到中共的軍機採取這樣子的舉措是適當的跟委員做簡單的報告"},{"start":8630.587,"end":8632.712,"text":"那我們有相對的這個"},{"start":8634.814,"end":8661.207,"text":"飛機有飛上去做一個映出因為這個事情就是說這讓我回想到這個去年那個金門的也是這個禁限職水域的這個事件那當時對方其實也是用了虛假的消息去定義說當時的這個金門水域所發生的事情所以藉此去擴張他的法律的權利這一次雖然他們沒有做一樣的事情但前置作業其實是非常類似的所以我覺得可能今後對於類似這樣的一個事情的一個處於我覺得應該是特別重要"},{"start":8661.707,"end":8675.946,"text":"但第二件事情就跟海域有關其實跟這件事情很類似就是說在這個黃岩島這也是應該就是上個禮拜的事情而已這個黃岩島現在可以看到有兩艘中國海軍軍艦四艘海警船以及四艘民兵"},{"start":8676.827,"end":8702.468,"text":"前面這個陳宏康委員也有提到一直到今天為止其實都還有類似的一個活動那現在它就是有這種三位一體這樣的一個運用那我有看到因為在這次夜報裡面有特別提到一件事情就是1月他有去修這個國軍經常戰備時期突發狀況的一個處置規定是否能夠先稍微說明一下類似這樣一個處置規定不用詳細的內容因為我看到夜報裡面有講到這一個所謂的高中低風險的這一個分野"},{"start":8705.03,"end":8728.781,"text":"遇到不同的風險的狀況應該要怎麼辦但是就是說以這樣的一個狀況來講會不會陷入到像不管是我去年講的那個事情還有像剛剛安捷航空所遇到的事情就是當對方用虛假的消息去劃定說這是一個什麼事件的時候我們有沒有把這一種對方定義成什麼事件藉此來擴張法律權利的這一件事情放到相關的這一個處置規定"},{"start":8732.058,"end":8754.113,"text":"報告委員我是座議事次長公務員報告剛剛委員所提的這個突發狀況處置規定我們就是因應今年這兩年開始中共灰色地帶應處的這種狀況跟他的情勢越來越多那所以我們就律定了一個叫做授權舉證跟在突發狀況處置規定裡面去律定他交戰規則等相關的規範會區分"},{"start":8758.376,"end":8783.99,"text":"範圍跟類型那授權於我們戰備部隊管制的作戰單位比如說建址部跟工作部可以依據他所面臨的狀況去採取及時的處置作為那當然因為中共不斷的在做一些模擬跟應用他的能力上的增長去做一些轉變所以我們每年都會針對不同的狀況去做修班像我們現在也開始在彙整各單位所面臨到一些在我們目前看到比較"},{"start":8785.531,"end":8811.481,"text":"異常的一些動態會持續納進來做修班這部分跟委員做說明對 因為這個就是像你剛剛提到就是說譬如說它的範圍是什麼樣子它的類型是什麼樣子所以我們相關應該要有什麼處置對不對我們在去年的那一個就是金門水域發生這一個事件的時候在當時那時候部長還沒有上任那時候還是邱部長那時候我就有提到說是不是應該要有這樣的一個處置規定那離現在應該也有超過一年半的時間"},{"start":8812.981,"end":8836.6,"text":"當時其實也有到辦公室先討論了一番因為我知道處事規定的詳細狀況不適合在這個公開場合講但那個時候我除了提醒要一定的規範之外因為這樣才有一個SOP我們才知道要怎麼去應處另外一個最重要的事情就是因為對方都會去利用這樣的一個情勢去放消息比如說他今天在做這個事情的時候他知道我們要怎麼去反應"},{"start":8838.262,"end":8854.105,"text":"結果不管是在他們的媒體上面或者說透過台灣去放一些消息說其實是台灣這邊在做一個挑釁什麼等等之類的就是它會有一個政治的因素放在跟這一個情勢的發生是把它扣在一起的"},{"start":8854.925,"end":8878.566,"text":"這個時候呢 像去年的時候他還甚至放了這個假的像海委會的這個假的這個對話記錄啊什麼等等之類的這一些事情它是屬於政治它不是在一開始講的這種範圍還有這個類型裡面但它卻是會遇到的所以遇到的時候呢比如說像我們的 比如說新站的單位比如說我們的正站的單位應該要怎麼運出是不是應該也要把這個納入裡面這樣我們在這個整體的規範的時候才可能會比較順暢"},{"start":8884.168,"end":8900.502,"text":"我想第一個當然就國安部的部分我們每天會有一些暫停請的一個匯報會來就這個部分做一個應處另外剛剛委員提到其實我覺得是有兩個面向一個是認知戰一個是法律戰"},{"start":8901.383,"end":8920.518,"text":"在認知戰的這個部分的話那麼因為這個相關的部分可能有一些是涉及到跟海巡也涉及到甚至其他的部會所以在認知戰的這個回應上面不只是簽到國安部所以國安會會就這個部分來主導會做一些關於反認知作戰的一些"},{"start":8921.679,"end":8948.717,"text":"另外法律戰的部分也就是說共軍這種灰色地帶的這個情擾它事實上是要形成一種台海內海化的這種一種長臂管轄的一種概念來不管是之前之中電軍這種公佈或者是這種海域有關這個海警船或者民兵漁船這種然後軍艦圍繞台灣這種的都涉及到這個法律戰所以這些法律戰的這些相關作為我們要來讓這個"},{"start":8950.502,"end":8972.981,"text":"尤其是國際社會也來清楚的話就法律戰的部分現在正在研擬相關的這些我們引用相關的這些國際法的規範我會來進行一些法律戰的反制作為謝謝部長因為部長也是法律專家因為我在國際的論壇上面在討論這些事情的時候我比較擔心的事情就是今天我們講到跟認知有關的或者說譬如說輿論有關的"},{"start":8974.122,"end":8999.092,"text":"有可能他國安會 相關的國安局他們都可能會有相關的一些跨部會的討論但一旦牽扯到跟法律利率相關的不可能是法務部出來的他有可能會請到跟外交部有關但其實並沒有一個主責的部門去弄法律戰所以各國現在在遇到中國尤其像譬如說中國跟菲律賓他們遇到這種法律戰的時候畢竟第一線遇到的就還是要嘛就是海巡 要嘛就是國軍"},{"start":9000.452,"end":9023.684,"text":"這個時候到底是誰才是應該主管這件事情誰應該去劃定這一個範圍其實在每一個國家都會出現一個有點不明確就不知道到底應該是誰來做所以這件事情如果後續能夠有更多的討論我覺得應該是樂見其成我們跟國安會已經有一個一段時間的討論這個部分國安會會結合相關的部會包括外交部也好包括"},{"start":9024.804,"end":9040.069,"text":"海委會也好包括我們也好還有其他部會我想都會有一個我們會有一個法律戰的應處作為會出來但我想這個部分可能要時下再跟委員做個說明沒問題"},{"start":9041.249,"end":9058.448,"text":"那接下來還有一個就其他一些比較細節也是跟這一次這個這個我看夜報比較有關係的就是說這個是跟國軍服裝有關因為我們現在大家就講因為這一次在這一個不管是在救災等等之類的最近國軍的形象國人的認知看起來是有一個顯著的提升"},{"start":9059.028,"end":9073.954,"text":"但是在內部的這個士氣有時候我覺得也是見微知著那我在跟幾個國軍的兄弟姐妹在聊天的時候就發現他們對於這些服裝的設計我看基層的反應有時候不是那麼的好"},{"start":9074.734,"end":9099.609,"text":"就是說有一些我就不要講軍種有一些軍種是大家這個在購買上意願是比較高但有一些大家購買意願稍低一點稍低一點可能是因為覺得那個Logo設計的不是很好看又或者說它的字體過大等等之類的導致它今天要去連是穿的意願不要說買如果即使它今天買了連那個穿的意願在有一些軍種是比較低"},{"start":9100.229,"end":9125.019,"text":"我在問的過程當中當然很多人會覺得說因為他們的意見沒有被反映到有時候他們對於這個現在我們這個對於美學大家可以看到我們這個在每一次國慶的時候大家對於美學的討論其實也很多這個時候的基層有一些人他對於這些到底什麼叫好看 什麼不好看哪一個色號 哪樣的一些字體哪樣的設計會比較好大家其實會有一些想法如果能夠廣納這些意見我覺得也是蠻重要的"},{"start":9125.599,"end":9146.938,"text":"但有時候我覺得以長官來講可能比如說這個價格不要太高就是品質OK然後價格不要太高有時候很容易就是往這種就是低價單價低的這個品項就會來做購買但如果說能夠第一個是廣大意見第二個就是其實在整個軍種裡面有些人是本來也就有設計相關的專業如果說他們能夠進來一起能夠設計的話是不是比較能夠讓大家在軍"},{"start":9152.423,"end":9157.942,"text":"軍中裡面能夠感覺到能夠受到重視是不是請這個看部長或者說請相關部門回答一下"},{"start":9158.59,"end":9184.409,"text":"就是說共通性的部分的話如果是共通性可以去購買那委員剛剛提到了我們善用美學的人才來遴選年輕時代期望的這個軍品的部分我想我們會來演繹就是說不管是陸海空三軍他們的這個服裝供售站所能夠納入的這個共通性的這個產品的這個"},{"start":9185.991,"end":9193.378,"text":"更好的一個設計剛剛有講到說有些軍種可能比較好我想我們會來檢討看看是讓整個的讓這些官司兵們能夠"},{"start":9205.569,"end":9226.106,"text":"我們要有其一的一個美學的一個展現這樣子讓官兵覺得不管是你哪一個軍種都能夠買到他覺得不錯的一個產品但是有一些是制式的服裝的部分這些可能就沒有辦法說是通用這樣子"},{"start":9226.286,"end":9237.952,"text":"那這個要看你是屬於哪個菌種但是菌種本身它的也應該是可以來強化我這邊問的比較像是原來的運動服那些的"},{"start":9241.554,"end":9261.775,"text":"我就覺得這個因為我後面有提到這個APP這個跨軍種購買的問題其實也不是說一定要因為有時候他們自己私底下買的什麼其實也很方便但今天之所以提到這一點就是因為想要讓他們有一些競爭就是說這一個不同的軍種之間的設計有一些競爭反而可以讓更好的產品能夠出來那這樣的話我相信兄弟姐妹也會覺得自己的意見被重視"},{"start":9262.856,"end":9289.037,"text":"那這一個就延伸到下一個問題這個在之前我忘了是在什麼時候我有問過類似的問題就是這些我們很多有一些留營意願的剛剛其實定宇文也有提到一些那這邊我想問的就是因為我們真的蠻多他到國外去受訓回來之後那我這一次也是在跟他們聊的時候我就發現一個我覺得是一個比較危險的事情就是很多人都甚至想說想說要賠錢但他想離開"},{"start":9291.579,"end":9313.292,"text":"那我說如果說只是一兩個這樣的一個個案就算了但是已經聽到為數不少那我會很擔心就是說這種事情慢慢一直發生的話其實對整個世紀也會有很大的影響那這個監察院在2023年的時候其實也有做過這個相關的報告我那時候質詢的時候是在那個2023年報告出來沒多久之後我問那時候國防部有說有會想辦法"},{"start":9314.913,"end":9334.845,"text":"要讓這些在海外訓練的人才回到這邊之後呢能夠 性量能夠讓他融入到軍中不然的話我之前在這個之前我在問的時候我就發現他們很多人在國外受訓然後回來之後結果最多是叫他們做翻譯做傳譯因為他們英文好但是我總覺得他們能夠他們到國外做訓練這件事情"},{"start":9335.365,"end":9348.744,"text":"最主要應該不是他們英文好而已而是他們有對於這個不管是先進的這些技術先進的文化管理的方式等等之類的能夠把這個帶入到國軍做更好的改革我看到業報其實這次有講到DIO就是那個創新"},{"start":9351.307,"end":9377.698,"text":"已經比去年更好了因為他有更多的跟這些不管是採購上的合作什麼等等之類這個進步看到了但關於這一種留外官兵他不管是到外面這個有派職過的或者有訓練過的能不能夠讓他回來到國軍能夠做更好的整合這個部分這一年來大概做了哪些努力各位委員報告我想我們現在尤其是我這邊都相關的很重視這些國外軍校畢業生的這個"},{"start":9378.798,"end":9391.83,"text":"循正常的金管來歷練的這個部分所以我們國防部本身就每半年會做一次控這個金管的一個控管所以半年就會那現在都掌握了有譬如說近200個人對這個近200個人他的"},{"start":9395.433,"end":9420.894,"text":"循這個金管的這個歷練來讓它這個能夠逐步在軍中能夠成長我想不會把它當作這個翻譯來使用這個狀況我們已經是每半年要控管一次那也請各軍種要注意到這個狀況好 因為時間關係這個主席再給我20秒那希望就是說大概有一個簡單的統計就是說這一些人到時候流於這個狀況什麼等等之類的"},{"start":9422.595,"end":9440.901,"text":"是不是在這兩個禮拜能給我這個資料希望未來以後也不要再發生因為現在又聽到一些我就有點擔心了我想因為這個可能不以公開來說明這些相關人員我們私下可以就這些管控的部分跟委員做一個詳細的說明好 謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝接下來謝謝"},{"start":9448.74,"end":9452.519,"text":"不好意思 沈伯陽委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘"},{"start":9819.254,"end":9827.44,"text":"請各位就座現在開始開會接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":9850.189,"end":9876.16,"text":"是林委部長早安我要提的這個命題當然我想是現在全民針對這個國防部比較關心的那當然就是防範散兵這個議題喔那麼當然我們知道喔最近如果您有留意到這些社群平台當中就有提到身為公眾人物尤其是藝人大概就是"},{"start":9877.04,"end":9895.194,"text":"造他的這個所謂社會形象來讓粉絲買單那麼一個藝人紅不紅當然我覺得作為我們一樣是政治人物的部分我們沒有辦法去做太多的評論但是相較於我們鄰近的韓國他們每一個"},{"start":9896.735,"end":9917.904,"text":"韓國的男性的藝人只要是不當兵或者是找到理由不當兵被社會發現的話就會出現根本不要在娛樂圈混了那麼我覺得這當然也是跟國情有點不一樣那麼對於現在這些藝人到底他們是用了什麼樣的方式能夠不服兵役那麼這個部分我相信檢調單位以及內政部也都說了要把這些相關的規範再來做報導"},{"start":9925.447,"end":9949.415,"text":"但是身為這個所謂的兵役的主管機關我想要請這個部長先看一下一個影片好了因為這個影片我自己看了覺得這跟真的是在人情世故上面台灣也許真的很多的藝人朋友應該也要看一下這個影片我來放一下這個是韓國的藝人玄冰我想這個"},{"start":9956.152,"end":9974.108,"text":"他在退役的時候他辦了一個粉絲在營區當中迎接他那他為了感謝這個粉絲等了他三年喔那麼他甚至於是直接在這個營區外面喔對粉絲行這個他們韓國叫做大禮啦那"},{"start":9976.499,"end":10002.935,"text":"我真的是覺得身為這個國防委員台灣的這些藝人朋友們真的要看一看就是如果你去當兵而且你為國家做奉獻我相信這個你對國家做出奉獻的這種榮譽感粉絲不會離開你而且粉絲會真的覺得你要對國家有所付出所以今天回到部長我這前情提要講的比較久那就是"},{"start":10004.215,"end":10032.562,"text":"在這個現在被揭露的閃兵的名單當中喔甚至於還有人是有拿到了這個我們的所謂三金就是金鐘 金馬 金曲有提名的 甚至於有得獎的那我要強調的就是如果說現在他被發現他是用各種不法的手段逃避了兵役"},{"start":10034.057,"end":10055.669,"text":"結果我們的國家文化部還給他三金的獎勵這不是很諷刺嗎所以部長我當然知道這是文化部的事但是身為這個主管機關部長有沒有可能跟文化部商量對於這些身為公眾人物尤其是藝人就是靠形象來賺取社會上面或者是粉絲上面給他們"},{"start":10062.469,"end":10085.617,"text":"的支持的時候那像這樣的獎項是不是應該要拿回來至少我們覺得他不足以拿到這樣的榮譽是吧 部長你怎麼看我想一南意圖以這些不法的手段來逃避兵役那是有將由內政部來依法以送檢調來偵辦那我們認為這樣子的一種"},{"start":10092.369,"end":10115.994,"text":"不法的這種方式來規避這個兵役的義務的話當然我們都是深切認為要期期為不可啦所以國安部的態度當然是希望就是說大家都要服務他應盡的義務那不要有妨礙兵役的這樣子的一個行為"},{"start":10117.348,"end":10131.473,"text":"因為我真的 我認為啦這個說起來藝人他一定會有示範的作用現在在民間當然從一開始這個事件爆發從王大陸開始一直到現在幾個這個被約談的藝人來講我覺得他就是一種示範的作用"},{"start":10136.295,"end":10159.463,"text":"那這樣的示範的作用當然是錯誤的示範或是不良的示範我會特別提起這個部分是除了他應該要面對的法律責任之外我是不是可以請部長可以跟文化部做跨部會的一個商量甚至於要提出這樣的一個建議這是本席的建議但是我認為這個必須要有一些做法否則對這些藝人來講他可能說我就出來道個歉反正呢也過了這麼多年了但是這種榮譽"},{"start":10166.105,"end":10182.314,"text":"國家不應該給雖然說各個部會之間是平行的但是總不能是因為部長你認為岐岐不可的事情但是文化部所主辦的三金金鐘 金馬 金曲還頒獎給他那雖然說這個是已經拿到的獎項那已經拿到的獎項能不能要求拿回來我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮"},{"start":10196.873,"end":10222.972,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是對這樣的一個行為要予以譴責但是就這個有關相關他得獎的這個部分的話我想我們還是要尊重文化部的權責好沒有關係這通通的題目我也會來問文化部但是至少部長這樣的做法就是一個不良示範那如果國家還給予其他獎項的肯定那這不等於是打臉國防部嗎"},{"start":10224.073,"end":10240.778,"text":"而不是打臉那些其他來禁扶貧易的禁義務的人嗎就是他一方面他可以用盡各種方法不履行國民的義務但是一方面他可以這不只是拿獎拿獎還可以拿獎金那我覺得像這樣的"},{"start":10244.119,"end":10270.737,"text":"我覺得身為公眾人物或是身為藝人這是覺得岐溪不可違但是我相信部長因為你講得很清楚啦這個不是國防部的業務那沒有問題我也會來跟文化部長來做詢答那麼第二個當然我們要扭轉喔這個有關於當兵的負面印象國防部這一針對你們所提出來的報告就是我們現在在國軍招募已經有成了但是還是有一些努力的空間喔那麼國防部目前呢在"},{"start":10271.637,"end":10284.652,"text":"到9月30號為止流行率是有到86.7%那麼比以往要來的高那麼在9月30號已經招募了13000多人那麼也達到了目標的89%那麼在這個部分喔"},{"start":10287.594,"end":10304.241,"text":"為什麼我會用這個有關於閃兵的這個部分來做開頭就是我相信我們在有關於提升不論是自願役或是義務役的薪資的部分還有在整個設備的部分其實都有做努力那麼部長這邊或是國防部這裡認為還有什麼可以加強的部分我想我們主要就是說讓這個整個"},{"start":10314.079,"end":10330.132,"text":"著重於這個戰備演訓的這個核心任務這一塊然後讓他們覺得當兵是具有一個榮譽感然後而且我們對相關的管理要"},{"start":10331.212,"end":10355.665,"text":"我一直提的這個檢法思維的這樣的一個管理的作為然後另外呢我想對於冠病的實質照顧我們也要來提升那相關這些應該如果有不適應的這個現象的話我們也要從事一個相關的輔導讓他能夠有一個能夠持續的願意為國來服務這樣"},{"start":10358.803,"end":10372.31,"text":"好 所以其實不只是物質上 薪資上在心理上其實部長剛剛也特別提到了所以本席要來請問一下就是我稍微看了一下115年度的預算就是114年度在三讀之後 政戰局是388萬軍醫局是1360萬一共是總計是1748萬但是我們115年度全部就都編在政戰局裡面就是有關於"},{"start":10387.618,"end":10392.561,"text":"國軍的心理健康照顧的這個部分其實從問卷上面來看都很滿意啊這個同意繼續維持或者是覺得對於官兵在身心上面的照顧的都是同意加上渴的加起來都高達99%大家幾乎都覺得不錯可是為什麼這個預算反而少了300萬可以理解 可不可以講一下"},{"start":10414.838,"end":10439.338,"text":"在野黨的委員或者是我們這些立法委員都還沒有砍預算你們就自己把預算往下降原因在哪裡如果大家都覺得很滿意委員好 我是鄭正恩局長跟你報告因為這個心理衛生心理健康的這個照護方案是從今年的2月13號開始試行也就是說它今年是第一次辦所以我們在預估它所需的人數上面我們是依照衛福部的這個年輕族群的一個覆蓋比的一個算法"},{"start":10444.162,"end":10466.144,"text":"那當然我們在宣傳上面我們還要持續在努力我們是依照今年去使用的人數去推估明年可以去運用這項方案 善用這項資源的人數所以這個方案我們會持續在這個準決預算就是精準去使用這項預算的一個考量之下那我們未來會持續努力的去推廣這項的服務"},{"start":10467.645,"end":10471.528,"text":"局長您的言下之意是您認為使用的人數會變少嗎不然預算減少只有兩個原因一個大概就是費用變便宜但是我認為像這樣的費用一定是有它的這個就是一定的標準在那裡嘛"},{"start":10483.979,"end":10506.326,"text":"那一定就是人變少那麼您認為人變少是因為使用的人會變少大家心裡都變健康了嗎我想局長的意思應該是說我們今年的2月13號到9月30號我們依照這個使用的人數來推估明年然後來核實來編列所以你們就是已經很核實編列了已經滯降300萬"},{"start":10508.287,"end":10512.13,"text":"這個部分可能要我原本是很關心你們因為我認為這個心理輔導的過去大概都說Paul是輔導長或是說做一些身心上面的調節這是我 我沒有當過兵啦我是在這個軍教電影裡面看到那現在我們有專業的心理師在做協助的時候那我其實比較好奇的是這樣的算法是什麼"},{"start":10529.241,"end":10532.204,"text":"那如果說你們是真的已經核實編列編得很紮實了那在這裡你們要大聲講出來希望這個委員們不要再來砍這個預算因為我真的認為這樣的預算非常重要"},{"start":10541.071,"end":10558.883,"text":"謝謝委員 我也非常感謝所有委員對於我們官兵心理健康的關切跟照顧那麼我們確實是依照今年預算編列後面評估它可能會有一些餘裕的情況因為我們今年大概使用了4200多人次那我想"},{"start":10559.803,"end":10572.533,"text":"這樣子的一個宣傳的力度我們會持續的強化那預估到明年可能會使用的我們已經先把這個預算先做一個核實的精算了那麼未來會跟著他使用人數的狀況我們再去做調節"},{"start":10574.394,"end":10602.272,"text":"好 所以其實局長講得很清楚啦就是其實一年每一次每一個人是補助一千六然後一年其實可以有六次但是因為知道的人不多所以會使用不多所以有宣傳上面的問題但是當然我不希望說是因為也有認為說因為使用的人太多可能不太好但是我認為這兩者之間希望不是有正相關而是真的我們的國軍弟兄都是因為身心健康使用率不高是這樣子"},{"start":10603.328,"end":10626.777,"text":"我想我們不會說他使用過多我想我們應該多多來來來宣導讓這個每個人都認為有需要這樣子的一個協助的時候他都能夠得到這個經費的益助好 謝謝謝謝接下來請徐巧欽委員上台質詢"},{"start":10635.404,"end":10660.674,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請顧立雄 顧部長有請顧部長部長好其實又快到年末了所以我要來關心一下我們的服裝攻售戰我們國軍官兵的個人服裝的磨損換補過去我們是用手填單耗時又費工"},{"start":10664.896,"end":10681.031,"text":"新的政策上路之後從2021年開始我們有服裝供售站正式營運除了實體店面之外這個資訊系統可以讓國軍官兵透過Apple自主選購然後透過物流宅配送達"},{"start":10682.212,"end":10705.905,"text":"這個改變其實是好的因為它也跟上了這個時代的腳步當然我們是個別的軍種可以看到個別軍種你可以採購的項目每一位官兵最高每年的額度是9860元因為一點是一元當年度合配的點數年底要使用完畢限制在買工費的品項上面"},{"start":10706.425,"end":10722.177,"text":"也就是說也蠻多官兵跟我們反映說每到年底的時候像現在已經10月10月 11月 12月開始就會有很多的長官們希望你這個點數還沒有花完的趕快去買但是我想先問一下部長您看一下這張照片"},{"start":10725.912,"end":10751.676,"text":"這個毛巾啊 這個大小大概多少啊75x33的毛巾喔 你大概可以看一下75公分x33公分的毛巾這個我們所有當兵的在你的不管陸海空三軍喔 在你的這個APP上面都可以看到我想要問一下部長 你覺得這個國軍公發制式毛巾如果要購買的話 你覺得大概應該多少的價格是比較合理的一條物價標準來說"},{"start":10756.928,"end":10778.217,"text":"我可能沒有辦法回答為什麼你覺得就是就是因你啊就是欸等一下你們旁邊不要這邊打小報告我問的是部長覺得這個毛巾大概應該要花多少錢買是你覺得比較合理的價格範圍嗎你不用告訴我說比如說一個區別區別的數字一個區間也可以"},{"start":10779.81,"end":10786.512,"text":"比如假設我講誇張一點300到600我就亂講了但是我的意思說一個價格的區間您覺得怎麼樣是比較合理的呢剛剛他們有調這個毛巾的部分大概陸海君不太一樣大概90到110吧你覺得合理嗎我覺得應該是要看這個毛巾的品質毛巾的品質這樣子的品質你告訴我說90到110好再來我要問一個問題就是呢"},{"start":10810.393,"end":10818.016,"text":"來陸軍海軍空軍都過來好不好分別講一下你們賣的這個毛巾分別是多少錢同一條毛巾我們竟然陸海空三軍的價格是不一樣的我們今天就可以來看哪一個軍種被當成盤子各位我是在幫大家爭取福利啊包委員我自己在服裝工作站還蠻青睞這個毛巾你有錢啊你我沒有我大概買是100塊"},{"start":10837.679,"end":10844.664,"text":"你不是買一百塊啦我印象中你一百一十塊啊來來來先跳回去我們一個一個看我們一個一個看來海軍來買多少錢海軍一百塊一百塊好來那個空軍多少錢包委員空軍是九十塊你看陸軍那個陳建一參謀長你是一百一十塊啊"},{"start":10862.345,"end":10866.229,"text":"因為應該還是要看他的那個所謂沒有因為不因為的你登進去就是這樣子我直接開給你們看了空軍是90塊錢海軍是100塊錢陸軍是110塊錢我們陸軍地雄人最多薪資範圍來說的話其實比較辛苦然後我們買東西買最貴"},{"start":10882.259,"end":10885.823,"text":"你覺得這樣子對我們的國軍地就合理嗎陸軍簡直被當盤子這三個毛巾是一模一樣的毛巾結果我們空軍可以買90塊錢其實已經非常貴了然後呢我們這個海軍100塊然後陸軍110塊我們剛剛三位參謀長裡面"},{"start":10901.943,"end":10919.878,"text":"空軍跟海軍都答對代表你們再怎麼說你們有掌握你們弟兄的這個具體的情況欸 為什麼你說你常常買結果你講的價格跟上面不一樣啊我今天不跟你探討這個喔好 那我要講的事情是那個部長我要跟你反映你們三位可以先回去喔 這個"},{"start":10921.679,"end":10934.904,"text":"恭喜我們海軍跟空軍有正確答對我們至少知道到底這發生什麼事情我今天舉毛巾的例子不是說我只看毛巾這個品項而是說這個品項三軍都有那"},{"start":10935.734,"end":10960.707,"text":"部長您覺得呢第一個我剛剛問的是價格的合理性我剛剛已經給您看過了它就是一條70×33的毛巾在市面上賣市面上賣一般來說最多就是50塊錢但是呢我們要賣到90到110塊就是第一點第二點在於什麼呢在於我們陸海空三軍對同一個商品賣的是不同的價格那個 部長您覺得合理嗎"},{"start":10965.549,"end":10986.34,"text":"這個採購是不是能夠說明一下不是我先問的是部長你覺得合不合理才在講怎麼採購的嘛你的態度是什麼嘛我想各項產品的材質重量是一樣的我先跟您說我剛看到好像毛巾的部分這個規格就有不一樣來說一下規格哪裡不一樣"},{"start":10988.183,"end":11012.273,"text":"為什麼陸軍可以買這樣的規格海軍能買這樣的規格空軍能買這樣的規格為什麼大家的規格不能統一價格不能統一我想第一點就是說它的規格有135公克也有113公克但是我想還有涉及到材質的部分哪一個是135公克哪一個是130公克陸軍的部分是135公克"},{"start":11015.256,"end":11042.239,"text":"然後呢海軍是113然後呢你剛剛講的是材質的部分繼續說啊這個應該是指重量你不是說材質也不一樣材質我是沒有很清楚了解這三個的材質有什麼不同但我想所以今天我們陸軍弟兄如果他不希望花這麼多的點數他想要買90塊錢的不好意思喔在他的這個系統我是買不到的您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":11042.879,"end":11054.345,"text":"所以我剛剛也在沈委員在質詢的時候我也有提到就是說我想各個通用的這個部分的話好 看下一張我告訴你這個你真的要檢討因為非常多人在表達不滿我只舉一個例子我到時候你們要檢討的時候要所有品項一起檢討我拿這個例子是因為它比較簡單易懂所以我拿這個例子出來跟你講其他的例子更複雜我怕我今天時間是不夠的"},{"start":11069.853,"end":11075.798,"text":"你們可以看一下本來部長你一定要看一下本來賣的毛巾是36塊錢結果後來因為你們改了改成有品牌的所以變成110塊錢我不反對你要賣很貴的毛巾啦但是一般平常日常生活用的國軍所需要的弟兄需要的毛巾便宜的他們買不到了"},{"start":11095.175,"end":11098.017,"text":"現在在這個購物商城上買不到了變成110了你可以看看這些都是國軍弟兄他們匿名上面的抱怨不意外那條毛巾都敢開110塊了原本36塊生活工廠變110香精的"},{"start":11113.127,"end":11119.128,"text":"這有沒有官商勾結的問題買東西樣式少價錢又高得嚇人本來毛巾是36塊結果換了一個生活工廠翻倍變110到年底還強迫大家把點數花完沒有需求還要被硬逼著買一堆自己用不到的東西以前36塊只能買5條還會缺貨最近打開來看到東西怎麼都那麼貴看到新聞圖利場商當然不是指你們一堆才上來看大家的感想"},{"start":11142.834,"end":11170.074,"text":"洗衣袋迎戰賣30到40文創部賣20被說不能賣因為這樣迎戰就賺不到錢所以呢就把它撤掉這就是我們現在國軍弟兄他們在基層的時候所遇到的真實情況如果今天這個雖然事情小可是你要想部長我們國軍弟兄人數這麼多那加起來他就會成為一個很重大的一個問題所以部長我可不可以了解一下你的態度呃"},{"start":11172.631,"end":11188.826,"text":"我想因為委員質詢的事項我必須要下去了解各個品項材質規格等等然後這些事項我想我會來統一來跟他們一起檢討好我跟你說這真的很有檢討的比啊因為抱怨的人非常多來看下一個"},{"start":11189.614,"end":11201.503,"text":"因為可能看起來是一個毛巾他可能幾十塊但是也有可能他的材質是不一樣這個我不是嘛我剛剛跟您說過了我並不是非常他就是呢他就是因為他換了品牌那他的品牌當然是比較好的品牌他的材質跟質量也有可能比較好我沒有辦法確定但是今天就是我們的國軍弟兄他認為過去我買36塊我就可以買到毛巾了也是堪用的"},{"start":11217.856,"end":11229.619,"text":"但是現在我要買我買不到你可以兩種都上架如果你真的覺得一百多塊這高質量的毛巾有這麼重要你兩個都送我沒有意見啊但是現在的狀況是國軍弟兄他們想買的東西現在買不到了就你們一個政策下去之後他們就買不到了"},{"start":11235.601,"end":11258.466,"text":"這是第一點第二點是類似的東西我不管你講135克或130克這個基本上就是類似的東西你陸海空軍的價格竟然是不一樣的我昨天去訪調很多的國軍弟兄我才發現他們根本不知道因為陸軍只能看到陸軍的系統空軍只能看到空軍的系統海軍只能看到海軍的系統所以他們都以為跟我一樣都是買110塊"},{"start":11262.587,"end":11277.835,"text":"結果我一講才發現原來空軍是90喔大家都會有相對剝奪感你只是因為你的這一些APP它看不到對方軍種的所以大家才會覺得說我們原來就是這樣再來"},{"start":11279.088,"end":11288.215,"text":"像這個 我想剛剛委員指教就是說品項一個品項有一個多樣性的選擇我想我下去可以來檢討是你這個第一個多樣性的選擇第二個如果他已經非常類似了就是你才差5克你告訴我說你要差10塊到20塊我覺得如果我是個消費者來說我就不能接受了何況這個點數應該是讓我們的國軍弟兄他有某一種程度的這個福利然後還因為不同的軍種然後有不同的售價我覺得應該要統一來處理再來"},{"start":11309.031,"end":11331.449,"text":"像這種大家會想要買的國軍弟兄會想要買這是屬於自費的就經常是處於一個不獲終的狀態所以說很多的國軍弟兄一直講說到年底就叫別人花點數可是他想要買的東西永遠都在進貨當中所以說我希望這一點也可以稍微去做一個改進既然你們都已經上架到這個系統上面了"},{"start":11331.849,"end":11344.884,"text":"就要盡量讓大家能夠購買得到啊否則大家想買的東西每一次都在不管是自費或者是用點數扣的都在補貨當中永遠都買不到那這樣子你們做的這個商店還有什麼意義嗎來我們再繼續往下看這個也是一樣"},{"start":11349.322,"end":11357.444,"text":"同樣類型不完全相同不是同一雙鞋我告訴你同一樣類型的靴子有的軍種賣2000塊有的軍種賣2500塊這個特別去宣傳的賣2500塊有的人賣2400塊所以我才說我從毛巾跟你講是因為它比較好比較但是從毛巾衣服到靴子都比較高價位的靴子都是同樣的狀況再給您看一些陳情"},{"start":11377.89,"end":11395.67,"text":"迷彩技工服1800塊材質爛到爆被火花噴到直接就融穿了用這種材質當技工服嗎他後面在罵的我就不講了很多東西限量購買要讓工廠好抓量爆表好看因為點數要消耗完"},{"start":11396.57,"end":11399.773,"text":"然後呢還有什麼這個中華民國的公發點數納稅錢我們都有繳稅1500塊的東西如果變成3000這樣錢沒有被拐走嗎這些都是大家講你看喔2500塊的靴子商城限定講得多好穿結果每一個穿上去的都說很難穿"},{"start":11419.25,"end":11443.084,"text":"所以我想要幫大家是爭取這個福利就是說呢第一個既然我們有這個點數讓他們每年可以去使用這個也是納稅錢那我們國軍弟兄他能夠去花的那他的購買的東西的品質我覺得一定要有然後呢價格上面生活上的用品就是要用生活上的價格"},{"start":11444.212,"end":11457.033,"text":"我們一般出去外面買毛巾大概多少錢在商店買毛巾多少錢大概大家都知道你是30塊到50塊差不多就是那個價格一條那結果如果我們在國軍購物站裡面你要賣到100多塊錢"},{"start":11459.246,"end":11473.697,"text":"那他們就說好啊那我就去外面買你聽起來很合理對不對可是不對啊他有點數要花完啊而且每年到年末的時候大家就會開始講說你要使用的點數把它花完啊那最後他就買毛巾來湊數"},{"start":11475.578,"end":11488.322,"text":"那這個湊的這個數量它的價格又不合理那變成是所有我們基層的軍人都知道這件事情但我們的長官不清楚所以在這裡我要再一次的幫我們的基層軍官跟我們部長請命這個商城的問題你不要看它小但它引起的基層軍官的民怨非常的大而且這不是我第一次看到了"},{"start":11498.766,"end":11519.724,"text":"是因為一直遲遲都沒有改善所以我今天在業務報告的時候提出來我希望部長可以做一個完全全面的改革那因為時間的關係我沒有辦法一個一個一項一項的品項跟你說以及幫每一位的不同軍種的軍官他們跟你反映但是呢希望我們事後我們後續再針對各個應該要"},{"start":11524.689,"end":11527.515,"text":"檢討的品項我們做一個全面的檢討讓這個公發的點數讓這個商城讓他的商品都能夠符合我們的國軍需求部長可以嗎"},{"start":11535.942,"end":11556.614,"text":"我想委員的一個指教我會下去進行研討因為相關的這些品項的部分這麼的眾多那其實也沒有到很多了各軍種各軍種跟各官兵的這個多元的選擇性這個部分然後還有您剛提到的舒適性的等等我想我們都會來測驗好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11562.597,"end":11568.599,"text":"謝謝部長就剛剛徐委員提到的這個部分服裝供售站其實他已經是保障廠商66億餘元這麼高的一個收入因為我們所有點數都會用到而且這個等於對一家公司挹注非常多所以請部長也可以提供那個因為現在已經標出去了他的合約內容也提供給委員會好不好因為很多"},{"start":11591.708,"end":11599.353,"text":"很多國軍官兵也在反應他們要的根本買不到一言再言可是到最後必須要把點數用掉的時候只好買很多其他的東西因為他網上其他的其他品牌或者很多非常多樣化的一個產品都在上面都可以買到他們要的買不到那只好去買這些那會變成變相圖利這些廠商所以我們也請國防部相關單位還有部長可以重視這個問題"},{"start":11622.229,"end":11624.653,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11645.75,"end":11660.023,"text":"部長你好最近一直有一件事情我一直想要看內容都看不到就是一個是總統講的賴總統講的說台灣之盾是不是"},{"start":11663.975,"end":11681.697,"text":"另外一個就是特別預算我們要編有人講一兆現在又聽到是一兆三這個等於在國防預算Regular的正常預算裡面另外要編特別預算請問到底是一兆還是一兆三"},{"start":11683.617,"end":11694.965,"text":"跟委員報告 現在就是說關於特別預算的規模還在行政院審議當中所以我們等行政院審議確定以後但你有提出來 你提出來是多少"},{"start":11696.328,"end":11722.561,"text":"我想因為還沒有審議完畢所以我想我們這邊因為這個預算的籌編是行政院的權責所以我想是以行政院的決定最後的決定不是 可是你總是有個版本給行政院不然行政院怎麼審呢你總是有個版本不然這個因為原來講的是一兆後來說一兆三這個一兆三是不是太多了或者你不便明講那我就說比一兆三少這樣可以吧"},{"start":11723.979,"end":11727.681,"text":"我想還是要以行政院的審議的結果所以問不出答案就對了這裡面總是要講一下讓我們知道一下一兆多是不是都買美國武器是不是我想這怎麼是機密呢要面對全國老百姓納稅的錢"},{"start":11746.763,"end":11757.586,"text":"我想有軍購也有我們國內的自己的委制然後也有進行商購所以通通都是買武器就這個意思 對吧特別條例嘛就類似戰機的特別條例2500億然後現在有一個特別條例一兆或者一兆三一兆到一兆三之間"},{"start":11770.296,"end":11777.14,"text":"我想相關的這些相關的這些編列的內容我想等行政院核定之後我們再對外來說明剛剛我們林委員提到海空號海空號不在裡面吧沒有 海空號海空號是extra的不在除了besides海空號以外我們還要編一照一照就是台灣之盾這兩個是不是一樣的東西"},{"start":11795.379,"end":11797.962,"text":"這兩個是不是一樣的東西就是為了要建構台灣之盾所以編了一照我都聽你講話了你總是要回答一下嘛是跟委員報告我想對你多好啊我們現在要快速提升的是不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性"},{"start":11813.68,"end":11825.564,"text":"防空系統不是只有針對台灣之盾不是只有針對台灣之盾但是台灣之盾在其中之裡面會是其中的一個重要的主要是防空系統是不是我們的整個防空會包括反彈反擊跟反無人機還有整合啊整合系統啊像巴西斯坦可以贏印度那就是一個整合系統的問題啊"},{"start":11842.182,"end":11856.344,"text":"所以我們會以這個強調這個高機動性跟高存活率的平台作為一個優先的考量所以主要是防空系統嘛需要維持一定的空優嘛 是不是我不知道我們現在有沒有空優啦"},{"start":11857.84,"end":11872.932,"text":"我想我們現在的這個特別預算的這個內容因為還沒有經過核定我想但是我剛已經講了我們是以提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛人心沒有會有包含這個你來這裡就要盡量講講到不能講為止不能夠說我盡量不講就急一下急一下講一點那第二個小問題就是問你是不是全數舉債總可以講白"},{"start":11887.774,"end":11892.391,"text":"這個部分是主計局來說明一下主計局啊 長官啊"},{"start":11893.342,"end":11898.047,"text":"人家外面罵得要死啊 現在我們去哪裡人家就說立委要怎麼監督的國防部的組織局 欸 那個顧部長啊你左邊這一位啊 你要好好的去監督一下對不對 椅子買五萬塊一張 辦公桌兩百多萬一張唉 今天我們沒得死啊 沒得吵頭啊連我們立委出去都被罵啊 所以我們都沒有好好監督啊"},{"start":11919.428,"end":11925.897,"text":"對不對我們的主席多優秀 把你抓出來要沒有抓出來就是按照你們原來講的啊能騙就騙 能框就框啊都這樣 對不對來講一下是不是都舉菜回答我是的 包委員是的是的各位"},{"start":11935.311,"end":11958.439,"text":"都百分之百舉債一兆一債是什麼概念啊我們一年中央政府總預算三兆喔三分之一的預算就舉債一兆除以兩千三百萬一個人要付多少錢你可以想一個人這個不是一年的特別預算那幾年七年七年一兆那就是七年平均一年就是也是一千多億啊"},{"start":11961.937,"end":11966.298,"text":"1400億 1500億左右啊好 第二個問題啊 我很快把它講完喔我今天接到好多電話就在抗議啊內政部其實抗議你啊說這個不當兵的那個原來BMI啊去兩年前才修訂了 到3535以上不用當兵現在把它提到45"},{"start":11990.77,"end":12006.722,"text":"那你對他又講說替代役了這個部長 你講替代役那你要講一下吧你現在提高這麼多讓很多可以來的小胖子或者是比較體型比較圓潤的通宵當兵變這個樣子"},{"start":12010.528,"end":12036.508,"text":"我是軍醫局局長跟委員報告因為我們常備役的體位沒有改變維持原來的體位那我們增加的是替代役那替代役從BMI講清楚所以35到45都是替代役是不是是替代役35到45都是替代役那這樣可以增加多少人這個可能要問內政部醫政署"},{"start":12037.932,"end":12053.5,"text":"都是替代役 替代役時間多久替代役時間也是一年來 我唸一段我就結束了這是選民給我的他的小孩子就是BMI45怎麼減都減不了就BMI45"},{"start":12055.051,"end":12078.499,"text":"然後他特別提到了現在大於37.5只是聽好兩位長官大於37.5健保補助開縮胃手術就是醫學上講的病態性的一個肥胖那你現在37.5就健保補助你開縮胃的手術就很清楚"},{"start":12079.554,"end":12098.569,"text":"以健康的角度來講37.5以上都不是太健康如果以肥胖來講的話那結果你要讓他去當兵萬一出了人命怎麼樣呢這個給我的是什麼就是他的小孩子就44他現在很憂心啊小孩子去當兵以後會不會怎麼樣啊會不會鬧出人命啊"},{"start":12100.151,"end":12120.707,"text":"跟委員報告這個是內政部議政司現在初步的建議但是我們現在還在開會還沒定案只是說有這個方向有這個方向那還要經過各個委員會還有各個學會還有醫院還有專家還有內政部議政司最後一句話什麼時候可以確定"},{"start":12122.737,"end":12142.306,"text":"我們大概在下個月大概就會定版下個月就會開始進入公告階段好好的把我剛剛那一段你把它看一下有些家長真的很憂心37.5是衛護部裡面健保可以補助的所謂的所謂的數數37.5是 謝委員的提醒好 謝謝"},{"start":12149.212,"end":12152.556,"text":"接下來請林德甫委員上台質詢是不是請顧部長"},{"start":12172.754,"end":12200.372,"text":"是 林委員好部長你好部長 我請教因為近日屢屢傳出國軍弟兄意外的事件不論是陳功嶺打靶意外或是軍官墮樓 墜樓請問國防部根據調查結果國軍的智商原因是因為工作壓力佔大多數還是感情因素佔大多數我是不是請站舉先"},{"start":12202.669,"end":12221.508,"text":"委員好 我是政戰局長跟你們報告今年對於自我傷害發生的原因比較多是情感跟家庭的一些因素那麼我們對於官兵的心理照護其實是非常重視所以包含了每一件事情發生之後"},{"start":12222.088,"end":12224.431,"text":"我們對於他的個人部隊適應狀況還有家庭的情況個人的財務情感我們都會務實的去檢討避免下一個案子再發生那個部長因為"},{"start":12236.158,"end":12260.195,"text":"國安部要做好官兵心理輔導那請問國軍的心理健康照護方案提供每個人每年六次的民間免費心理諮商的服務是否有相關統計可以說明今年的一到八月國軍有多少人使用那國軍心理健康的這些照顧的方案"},{"start":12261.81,"end":12283.199,"text":"我們是今年2月13號才啟用到9月30號為止是4,375人次我想我們這些他可以進行這樣子的一個獲得這樣的補助來協助解決官兵的心理困擾我覺得有一定的程度的注意我是希望要落實"},{"start":12284.619,"end":12302.932,"text":"是 我想官兵應該是要維護官兵的心理健康我們就會盡量來提供這些多元的輔導部長 我再請教 彈藥庫是零幣設施的民眾不希望住家附近有彈藥庫可是沒有彈藥庫則無法發揮"},{"start":12305.573,"end":12315.913,"text":"國防的戰力來保家衛國那過去2023年3月邱國正前部長在綠好院被刑的時候表示"},{"start":12317.281,"end":12340.529,"text":"台美正在研議是否將原本放在日本韓國菲律賓的儲備的彈藥改存放到台灣那時間拉回到現在媒體報導顧部長說強化國土防衛任性部分第一是相當重要的彈藥庫整建那我請問顧部長彈藥庫整建是否"},{"start":12345.77,"end":12363.662,"text":"這個跟存放美國這個儲備彈藥有關我想還是我們自有的彈藥的存量這個存量必須要充足而且我們也買了很多新式的武器裝備所以需要有足夠的這些庫儲的設施這樣喔 這個"},{"start":12367.133,"end":12378.983,"text":"本席也跟顧部長確認彈藥庫整建的意思是在既有的彈藥庫設施進行改善還是會在新的地方來設立全新的彈藥庫"},{"start":12380.599,"end":12404.676,"text":"我們在這一次的特別預算如果您問的是這個這兩年期的特別預算都是屬於整建的部分至於新建的部分它其實比較長沒有放在這一次兩年期的特別預算這是屬於另外的本席要提醒 要是新設代號庫本席希望國防部做好跟附近社區住戶的民意多做溝通"},{"start":12405.952,"end":12430.877,"text":"我們都新建的部分都是一定要按這個法定的程序來進行來 在近日有媒體提問說美國總統川普是否會為了以習近平達成協議而犧牲美國對台灣的支持川普總統則沒有正面上的回覆提問那今年六月民主基金會民調指出67%的民眾"},{"start":12434.831,"end":12461.882,"text":"認為美國是將台灣作為與中國對抗的籌碼而且66%的民眾認為美國總統川普會為了美國的利益來出賣台灣有三分之二的人那美國是否是可靠的盟友民眾對美國是擔憂的本期希望國防部不要忽視要認真的來看待部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":12464.086,"end":12472.274,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得在安全這個議題上面維持整個印太區域的和平穩定是美國的核心利益美國"},{"start":12474.499,"end":12496.297,"text":"總統川普也一直在說明就是他絕不容許這個戰爭的發生而且我看他的講話也提到最近是講說美國軍力強大所以我想他還是以實力作為一個嚇阻的基礎而且在印太有任何的戰事發生也就是說現狀被破壞就是現狀沒辦法維持的話對美國來講是"},{"start":12500.06,"end":12514.131,"text":"一個核心利益的一個喪失所以我想美國一定在安全的議題上面是不可能讓步的我希望如此啦據瞭解 空軍戰機飛行員的訓練由三階段三種機改為三階段兩種機兩機種"},{"start":12517.654,"end":12529.829,"text":"那未來T-34C這個初級的教練機要採延售的方案還是要向外採購初級的教練機國防部何時能夠定案"},{"start":12530.899,"end":12553.696,"text":"所以報告委員依據我們現在T-34型機初級教練機使用的狀況他大概在121年到127年會有接受的這個狀況那我們現在也尋商也不排除做自製研發的這個方式甚至有做租賃的方式我們在各方面都有做一些目前的一些準備跟研究"},{"start":12554.096,"end":12580.616,"text":"因為審計部的報告裡面指出空軍這個永英高校機這個訓練機發動機受損頻繁三年內發生了148次的故障影響妥善率那當初就是因為F5戰機老舊汰換改成永英的戰機來替換那本期是希望國防部"},{"start":12581.757,"end":12587.925,"text":"妥善解決永英教練機頻繁故障的問題"},{"start":12589.145,"end":12610.391,"text":"這跟委員簡單的報告這個已經澄清了因為當時在台東飛的時候我們機場有非常多的設施那也包含跑道的整修以及F16準備接機的一些工程設施所以造成了飛機發動機吸入外物那這個也都澄清那在後來的這個時間已經完全的都改善了這樣喔 好 謝謝謝謝接下來請陳"},{"start":12618.567,"end":12631.056,"text":"林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請接下來接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":12636.53,"end":12651.873,"text":"好 謝謝主席請部長還有海軍司令部參謀長以及我們中科院院長請顧部長 海軍參謀長還有中科院院長就備巡台 謝謝是 王委員好好 部長好"},{"start":12654.458,"end":12666.053,"text":"部長我們現在除了發展無人機之外我們也發展無人艇那麼而且呢按照我們現在包含我們軍方的需求超過1300艘的無人艇而且"},{"start":12669.938,"end":12687.472,"text":"又為了因應2027年的可能就是有可能的中共犯台的一個準備所以除了軍方之外而且我們海巡現在也說有無人艇的一個需求"},{"start":12688.232,"end":12712.688,"text":"所以這個需求量是非常非常大的那我在這邊直接想請教因為呢除了我們現在的這個廠商我們無人艇現在未來就是我們的需求量這麼大但是呢我們的廠商一直鎖定在台船隆德還有中信其實非常的有限那這個呢在透過經濟部呢台灣的這個遊艇業者因為台灣是遊艇王國"},{"start":12718.352,"end":12735.361,"text":"那所以呢在遊艇業者呢也希望能夠就是說一起能夠讓除了這個旅遊娛樂性的那麼他們也可以來加入這樣的一個生產那麼我所看到的像中科院為什麼請院長來中科院也認為"},{"start":12739.003,"end":12749.17,"text":"因為我們未來的需求事實上是可以讓這樣的遊艇業者來參與事實上我知道目前已經有遊艇業者已經開發出無人艇了而且是軍用的無人艇所以我想請問部長還有我們的海軍參謀長"},{"start":12762.079,"end":12774.171,"text":"未來我們在發展無人艇的部分可不可以讓我們再增加我們的一個供應量把台灣這樣的一個產業讓它的產業鏈能夠擴大然後讓遊艇業也能夠來參與我們不管是軍方或者海巡的相關的無人艇的生產"},{"start":12785.976,"end":12805.926,"text":"我想政策面上面來看的話我們落實這個在地生產這個是我們的政策因為這個才能夠具有一定的防衛韌性那無人機也好無人艇也好確實如委員所講他都現在來看都有不具有一定的產業規模那麼現在要轉入到這個"},{"start":12807.426,"end":12836.3,"text":"軍用也好或者軍用商規也好或者是相關的這些我們有一定的這個對外甚至能夠輸出的這個能量來講我們國軍作為一個最大的需求者那我們確實是要來落實這樣的一個在地研發生產的能量所以在地研發因為我剛剛講說其實我們目前所你們所鎖定的事實上是非常有限所以以台灣的遊艇業者來講話事實上也可以納入對不對"},{"start":12837.854,"end":12851.322,"text":"因為我們日後一定會採取一個公開招標的一個程序然後進行申選所以他們假設本來是坐遊艇那要轉入的話那或許在技術面上面他可能需要找到一些廠商來"},{"start":12852.542,"end":12861.905,"text":"其他的這些有這樣的技術來合作那當然沒有錯他一定要符合相關的規定這沒有錯他如果能夠有一個技術授權或合作所以我是希望說這個是一個就是一個在地生產然後呢而且我們明明放在一個台灣一個遊艇王國另外那個部長請問一下川普最近說2027台海之間不會發生戰爭您同意他的說法嗎"},{"start":12882.02,"end":12898.805,"text":"我想川普總統我看到他的講話還是說提到他說美國的軍力壯大所以我看到的是這樣子所以我認為美國的政策在安全議題上面一直是以實力作為基礎的我們現在不是談美國政策我們現在並不談美國政策而是談他說2027台海沒有發生戰爭的這個問題"},{"start":12909.129,"end":12925.163,"text":"你們的評估是我們都是評估它相關的預警增後不管是早期的還是更廣泛的一個密駐它的一個動向做長期的預期所以你不完全接受它的預期"},{"start":12926.263,"end":12944.097,"text":"我們不會以這麼簡單的一個講法來做一個結論我們都是以 我們都會川普的說法有他個人的樂觀我們都會面對中國的這個軍事威脅不斷的提升然後研判各種的徵喉來掌握這個全盤的狀況好 那另外我請教就是現在我們關注的就立刻就是很快的會有川習會"},{"start":12951.343,"end":12954.486,"text":"那麼川普在川習會之前突然提出來一個2027他認為沒有台海沒有發生戰爭的危險或可能性那我其實覺得這個是他即便川習會的他的一個技術上的說法也說不一定"},{"start":12968.257,"end":12971.58,"text":"另外現在因為中美貿易大戰而中國現在對全世界祭出了西土戰反正互相卡脖子而我們影響我們的問題就是我們F16V的戰機已經嚴重的延宕到目前為止我們訂製66架也只有兩架出廠在美國出廠它根本還沒有交機"},{"start":12996.698,"end":13018.55,"text":"那麼接下來超過60架要想要在2027年之前交機其實是看起來就已經非常高難度所以部長根據國際的情勢現在竟然中國發起了稀土戰管制稀土的出口"},{"start":13019.19,"end":13026.565,"text":"那麼會不會讓整個F16V的戰機的叫機更為嚴當 你們的評估是什麼"},{"start":13027.947,"end":13053.635,"text":"包委員 這個之前也回過委員的這個提問那目前的主要的原因是在當時COVID-19之後的人力以及供應鏈上的問題那目前是沒有提到美方也沒有提到有這個稀土的問題我們這樣評估的話它的主要是在人力上目前已經逐漸改善 那以上那你們認為說明年全數交機可能嗎難度很高"},{"start":13056.498,"end":13064.726,"text":"所以幾乎確定又要跳票會往後延 因為前面的這個會延多久 你們現在所聽到的應該會延多久呢"},{"start":13065.285,"end":13089.936,"text":"我們現在目前還在評估當中因為他的目前之前缺工的狀況也逐步在改善我們每個月都有在開這個會議所以為什麼要問呢就是因為我們基本上還是以2027認為是在台海之間比較危險的嘛沒有錯嘛對不對可是如果到明年交機要跳票然後當然我們要有預估一個時程等到爆發戰爭之後你再來有用嗎"},{"start":13091.678,"end":13101.345,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該要有比較具體的具體的你延宕要延宕到什麼時候是不是我們可以承受的一個"},{"start":13103.251,"end":13125.164,"text":"範圍我覺得這一點事實上是很重要的否則到現在66家然後一家的影子都沒有有啦兩家還在美國然後剩下的影子都沒有我覺得這個是很難對台灣的這個所有的納稅人還有所有就是關心台海之間會不會發生危機的人的交代好不好好謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":13154.646,"end":13157.054,"text":"麻煩召委邀請國防部部長請顧部長"},{"start":13164.688,"end":13192.046,"text":"市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有郵出給這個中共的情報人員"},{"start":13192.947,"end":13216.064,"text":"那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸"},{"start":13217.927,"end":13242.529,"text":"就國防部的掌握這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定草原交犯標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊"},{"start":13244.651,"end":13261.768,"text":"所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度"},{"start":13262.208,"end":13280.203,"text":"沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦"},{"start":13281.249,"end":13308.571,"text":"那所以說這個它有沒有通過查核跟它可不可以接觸這個密等因為它不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏 機密即機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好"},{"start":13310.683,"end":13323.978,"text":"我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的"},{"start":13325.051,"end":13353.07,"text":"如果說相關的供點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位"},{"start":13355.811,"end":13383.239,"text":"這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好 我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解"},{"start":13383.959,"end":13400.356,"text":"那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意"},{"start":13404.52,"end":13419.391,"text":"避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞"},{"start":13420.902,"end":13446.496,"text":"好謝謝那一樣我上次在跟國安局諮詢的時候有特別提到他們有反情報的指引在他們的這個DCSA有反情報的接觸指南那這個指南他原則上是不是只給情報單位包含他各個政府部門那都可以知道說有一些相關的指引那他們也會知道說要去向誰來去報告說有遇到異常接觸的話"},{"start":13448.392,"end":13461.906,"text":"過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室可以來統籌包含把一些反情報的這些做法跟指引來去跟它處內的員工來說明"},{"start":13463.908,"end":13478.458,"text":"那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片"},{"start":13479.258,"end":13502.808,"text":"那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建置起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式"},{"start":13503.508,"end":13517.714,"text":"就是說我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫"},{"start":13518.954,"end":13543.027,"text":"可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做"},{"start":13543.707,"end":13572.143,"text":"那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":13572.751,"end":13583.265,"text":"我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T棟來編列的也包括其他的部分"},{"start":13585.351,"end":13604.475,"text":"著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以"},{"start":13605.235,"end":13619.906,"text":"現有我們已經有很多的sensor那也有很多的shooter那麼未來也會來增購這個sensor也好或shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高"},{"start":13621.006,"end":13637.732,"text":"這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子"},{"start":13638.292,"end":13664.074,"text":"所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那T棟未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":13666.783,"end":13684.56,"text":"應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣"},{"start":13685.502,"end":13702.852,"text":"因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機"},{"start":13705.453,"end":13727.291,"text":"重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到梯動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是以更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想"},{"start":13728.621,"end":13758.301,"text":"我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行貴的計劃但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計劃它可以是"},{"start":13759.161,"end":13778.532,"text":"有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷"},{"start":13779.472,"end":13793.281,"text":"怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向"},{"start":13795.137,"end":13812.015,"text":"那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭它的主網行動它其實是善用特種作戰方式特種部隊所以它"},{"start":13812.635,"end":13827,"text":"它並不是在他們的從境內到他們的境外的供給而是直接在境外裡面先預先直輔那他們的安全人員或者是說他們的特務就先到那邊去來去做一個完整的規劃"},{"start":13828.24,"end":13847.382,"text":"那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種"},{"start":13848.763,"end":13863.825,"text":"用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":13865.053,"end":13888.168,"text":"我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜 就人"},{"start":13889.228,"end":13914.702,"text":"還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些"},{"start":13916.062,"end":13923.485,"text":"這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 謝謝委員指教謝謝接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我們請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":13946.325,"end":13947.626,"text":"要先喝口水嗎部長好 這個美國參議院的外委會今天通過四項挺台的法案其中包含了簡化冗長對台軍售程序的豪租法案讓台灣顯有跟北約盟友同等的待遇"},{"start":13968.506,"end":13986.142,"text":"現在就是說未來我們在軍售的流程會比較縮短我們可以跟像北大西洋公園組織日本 歐洲 韓國 以色列等北約Plus成員享有同等的軍售待遇 對不對相關的法案裡面是有這樣子的一個要求"},{"start":13994.161,"end":14004.447,"text":"那請教一下部長台灣享有跟北約盟友有同等的待遇那除了縮短這個軍售的這個程序跟時間之外他的政治上的意涵是什麼"},{"start":14006.71,"end":14029.151,"text":"我想我們雖然沒有像北約這樣子的一個組織跟美國但是這個彰顯美國對於台海和平穩定的重視所以讓我們享有跟北約盟友一樣同等的待遇顯示他們對於印太整個區域"},{"start":14030.432,"end":14045.389,"text":"維持現狀的一個是他們的一個高度認為是他美國的核心利益的一個展現好 那再請教一下部長那目前有哪些我們的軍售項目可以因為這個豪租法案而受惠的"},{"start":14049.785,"end":14072.162,"text":"呃...有嗎?抱怨委員 我是站櫃市市長跟您報告一下豪宿法案目前它是規劃把智慧國會它的那個效期中30天壓縮到15天但就軍售項目來講如果是屬於傳統的大型軍售的話它主要的問題還是在進入預約階段跟產商產製所以這個影響不會太大可是如果就新創產業比如說"},{"start":14075.204,"end":14094.162,"text":"像最近出現的人工智慧武器等等這些東西它的產值其實比較短或是我們之前買的那個Altius 600這種由新創產業他們做的這種產品這個壓縮或許就可以帶來一部分時間上面的交易那就是跟這個新創的這個軍工產業有相關就對了"},{"start":14096.852,"end":14125.194,"text":"好 那我再請教一下部長今年六月美國戰爭部長赫格賽斯他有提到說準備在印太地區建立小型無人機的系統標準確認關鍵零組件的生產來源然後今年八月呢這個八月底參議院的軍事委員會主席維克爾他也說這個美國跟台灣共同生產武器未來將會實現所以台灣的角色從單純的買方轉為美國國防工業上的重要節點那請教一下部長"},{"start":14127.597,"end":14136.628,"text":"這個飛鴻的供應鏈包含他們的戰爭部長跟軍委會的主席所講的主要是以台美共同合作研發無人機嗎"},{"start":14139.301,"end":14157.558,"text":"我想台美的共同的一個合作一向緊密當然無人機是一個其中的一個重點因為美國也要擺脫這個紅色的滲透的可能性也就是說如果無人機以中國現在的這麼"},{"start":14159.64,"end":14184.514,"text":"高比例的一個市場的佔有率它這些相關的這些通訊的系統都藏有這個資安跟個資洩漏的疑慮所以當然也都需要來結合這個理念價值相近的國家來共同打造一個飛鴻供應鏈這當然是其中的一個重要的項目那台灣的角色啦台灣角色當然那主要是以無人機為主嗎還是有包含其他的"},{"start":14187.455,"end":14200.41,"text":"沒有警訊與無人機其他的部分我想我們可能不宜公開來做說明那剛剛有提到這個新創我們國防部也有一個國防創新小組DIO"},{"start":14202.165,"end":14227.724,"text":"然後跟美國的一個國防創新單位DIU目前有建立了聯繫的管道嗎因為根據聯邦參議院通過的國防授權法案也要求美國的國防部的國防創新單位DIU跟台灣的DIO的對應窗口合作請問一下 雙方有建立聯繫的管道了嗎有充分的做資訊的交換了嗎"},{"start":14230.836,"end":14254.786,"text":"有 我們跟美國的DIU已經建立了一個交流的機制我們定期會藉由視訊或實體的會議來進行交流那時間大概有多久了就是雙方建立管道的時間大概有多久了去年的二月開始從去年二月開始那我們這個DIU是哪時候成立的"},{"start":14256.328,"end":14262.242,"text":"就我們也是同時間嘛二月所以從去年二月到現在那時間滿長的喔"},{"start":14264.886,"end":14291.686,"text":"對 所以我們的已經有在不斷的跟美國的DIU建立這些有關要如何快速的建構這些在市場上這些已經既有的這些商品能夠快速的引進所以我們會有這些原型開發我們會有小批量採購這些都是在陸續的應用這種方式來快速的進行現貨的採購"},{"start":14293.487,"end":14320.349,"text":"就小批量採購然後進行驗證測試然後如果可以的話我們就可以快速的來進行籌購這些模式可能要比普通的這個建案的程序要都是以軍規商用為主的嗎主要還是以市場上成熟的這些然後可以符合我們防衛作戰需求的好 不好意思主席我再問最後一項這個"},{"start":14323.613,"end":14340.186,"text":"無人機很重要但是監察院也講說無人機的訓練中心規劃的人數恐怕不足明年接裝軍用商規的無人機的操控手訓練量有不足請問一下這個有改善了嗎"},{"start":14341.192,"end":14361.774,"text":"有 我們要變裝要做簡單說明就好像委員簡單報告就是我們任何軍售或是商售的無人機它整個都是包含到我們的包含到幫我們訓練我們依採購數量的非超手無人機主要就是培育資資還有進階的訓練這方面其實是已經我說這個人數夠不夠"},{"start":14364.878,"end":14393.361,"text":"何時可以補足就隨著我們膠裝的數量會幫我們做完訓練所以這方面是沒有問題的目前是夠的嗎 是我看監察院講說不夠那個已經有向監察院呈付後面我們也在整個購案裡面都有廠商來包含訓練的這個部分是 好 部長我10月8號有講說這一個是不是有這個台智齡組件用於這個俄羅斯的武器你說要找這個經濟部就我昨天問經濟部經濟部說你們根本沒有找他兩個禮拜了"},{"start":14394.802,"end":14408.293,"text":"跟委員報告我想因為這個部分整個的這種零件的這種供應涉及到相當複雜的這個部分就是說你去調查需要時間但是你們連絡都沒有聯絡這就不應該了是是是好不好那多久時間可以調查出來"},{"start":14414.635,"end":14442.281,"text":"我沒有把握這個是不是有辦法調查的出來有啦怎麼沒有辦法這你跟經濟部經濟部說來找你們啦你不找他們來找你們一個月好不好這攸關台灣的形象我想我們再進一步了解至少要聯絡好嗎好我們去跟經濟部聯絡好謝謝接下來請林倩琪委員林倩琪 林倩琪委員不在請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":14448.794,"end":14450.462,"text":"謝謝主席 安全發言 邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":14461.463,"end":14487.82,"text":"這幾天傳出了國防部要將分為七年來編列預兆元的軍購特別預算說這個預算大概會高達1.3兆那包括了要向美方購買所謂的防空系統偵測小型無人機火箭跟飛彈還有增加台灣戰時生產與儲存的這個彈藥的能力都有被媒體來提起"},{"start":14489.241,"end":14510.252,"text":"那這個部長這可能如果是陳真的話他可能是史上最高的軍購特別預算那過去不管藍綠來執政都沒有提過這麼高的軍購特別預算所以這個數字我們看是超出了國防部四個特別預算的一個總額"},{"start":14511.812,"end":14540.246,"text":"所以本席在這邊準身請教部長這一筆預算假設如果是真的是1.3兆那麼到底現在媒體是說1.3兆那請教部長到底是會再增加還是會減少還是就這個數字到底是不是真的請說明條例的部分在由行政院進行審查我們確定全案的規劃之後我們會適當時機再對外說明那所以這個是真的"},{"start":14541.486,"end":14556.247,"text":"現在沒有辦法做這樣的一個確定所以條例是在進行當中條例在從行政院審議中就審議中了 已經審議中了好 那麼媒體更有報導說美方不斷的可能會不斷的要追加項目跟數量"},{"start":14557.659,"end":14570.694,"text":"那請問是如此嗎因為你現在已經在行政院審議中那媒體這麼報到底是會增加還是沒有增加還是這個數字是如何呢"},{"start":14571.38,"end":14596.777,"text":"我想我們所有的這些預算包括特別預算都是根據我們防衛作戰的需求來進行編列的那我們針對敵情威脅抖聲我們認為要快速提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性所以我們規劃這個提出特別預算並不是說我們沒有我想我們還是以這個符合我們的防衛作戰需求為前提"},{"start":14597.482,"end":14618.783,"text":"換句話說您針對鋼安本席據報導所說的你們的這個不管是條例或者是預算的依據都是陳如鋼愛部長你所說的防衛作戰的需求去執行制對 我們都會有一個我們的防衛計畫然後我們都會有我們的一個"},{"start":14622.445,"end":14634.773,"text":"這些防禦需求的一個需要的這些武器裝備也好或者是相關的這些系統也好有所你的依據那你的目標成效呢"},{"start":14636.618,"end":14660.705,"text":"目標的成效當然就是我們希望能夠因應這個中國不但對我們的這個加大對我們的台灣的這個武力威脅的這個力度我們能夠在最短時間內完成一個完備的作戰準備完備作戰準備那所以這一筆預算如果照媒體報呢是這個史上最高的預算所以本席也要請教規模很大"},{"start":14661.792,"end":14676.332,"text":"那必要性無法接受完整的一個監督交付延遲的這個問題看不到他解決的方案所以讓人會憂心是不是會任由美方的欲求"},{"start":14679.076,"end":14704.741,"text":"我想我們台美雙方對於防衛作戰的需求我們都會不斷地來進行研討那特別預算的部分也不是只有對美的軍購我們也會有委制我們國內的委制來創造我們這個一定的經濟效應然後我們也會有商購所以我想這個部分我們會用多元的管道來籌獲我們防衛作戰的一個"},{"start":14706.741,"end":14723.536,"text":"多元的管道來籌劃跟規劃跟執行但是據報導說美國前總統彭斯先生他說了美國至今仍有200億美元對台的軍售是延遲的是嗎"},{"start":14727.715,"end":14750.593,"text":"我想數字已經往下縮減了那現在最主要跟委員報告當然就是剛剛有些已經有委員槌尋的就是有關F16B那還有一些比如像AGM154因為這是在2019年的時候所編列的特別預算2472億元所以請教現在交的進度如何"},{"start":14752.762,"end":14763.509,"text":"現在我們希望明年就能夠得到交機所以到目前為止有沒有交一家過來目前為止有沒有交我想相關的組裝都"},{"start":14766.107,"end":14771.893,"text":"好不好 委員 目前都還沒有交過來那為什麼還沒交呢 研製啊所以剛剛本席特別問部長您說是 那原因是什麼呢因為我們給錢了 但是交不出來那我們的機制呢 應對機制是什麼樣呢在113年之後 他沒有交機的部分我們也都延遲付款這個部分我們有保障我們的權益 跟委員報告"},{"start":14787.73,"end":14808.521,"text":"來 部長 延遲戶款 這不是我們的目的我們要的 既然我們有軍購我們希望 我們也都願意支持國防但是你交不出來啊那你這個不是只有這個交不出來的問題啊因為你接下來 你研製了之後呢你還有什麼 防衛佈局 訓練期程戰力策略 你都會"},{"start":14809.702,"end":14833.053,"text":"都會延後啊 都會影響啊 部長會不會我想現在美方正在全力趕工當中我們明年應該是可以獲得交集只是說要全數交易完畢可能有相當部長你這麼回答 明年會交集價我想這個還是要透過跟美方這個確認部長你還是沒有答案給本席因為我們這個是已經約定的"},{"start":14836.499,"end":14864.354,"text":"那我們應對只有把錢延後交可是這不是國人希望的啊就像剛剛部長您所說的我們是要戰略戰區安全為主那怎麼辦而且會延後到後面剛剛本席所說的這幾項那我方怎麼應對呢因為我們據聞又要編了一個七年1.3兆那如果還是這樣的應對那我們的戰略安全到底在哪裡請部長說明"},{"start":14865.82,"end":14884.427,"text":"我想我們雙方會有一個定期的管制會議來確認這個交機的這個期程那我們一定會希望美方能夠全力敢攻來加速這個交運部長我想國家的安全支持國防這是"},{"start":14885.707,"end":14909.093,"text":"這個是不變的原則 本期所以我非常的希望也就是說我們既然我們支持國防你們也決定要怎麼做但是當沒有辦法交的時候難免社會大眾會認為我們是不是只有當冤大頭我們是不是只有當美國這個軍火商的一個提款機我想這都不是我們國人希望的"},{"start":14909.713,"end":14934.7,"text":"所以部長您剛才回答本席說你會再跟美方來去討論光光在2019年的這些要怎麼樣能夠交集回來我們當然到目前為止沒辦法聽到你比較正確的一個時程但是我們還是希望我們不要當冤大頭國家的安全是非常的重要的謝謝委員指教"},{"start":14937.505,"end":14946.29,"text":"謝謝接下來請曾振淺委員曾振淺委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":14970.692,"end":14990.708,"text":"是 林委員部長好 首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了是除役的去年除役 那今年7月除役的是RF51偵察型的這個F51"},{"start":14993.851,"end":15015.565,"text":"那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高較機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢所以我們的主合約是中科院那由中科院向漢翔公司次合約商來自製研發的那域化是明年交66架今年域化是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架"},{"start":15017.617,"end":15037.848,"text":"所以我想說已經有延遲有延遲嘛對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些"},{"start":15044.71,"end":15066.401,"text":"包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":15068.376,"end":15074.761,"text":"好 那我看這樣永銀的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永銀高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永銀為什麼會延宕呢還有外購系統的缺件品項"},{"start":15087.33,"end":15115.787,"text":"是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些系統件喔這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙造的爆破系統等等這些"},{"start":15116.938,"end":15131.893,"text":"在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個插催"},{"start":15133.581,"end":15149.458,"text":"那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢祥公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限"},{"start":15151.032,"end":15173.251,"text":"我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些試驗的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就"},{"start":15174.592,"end":15200.212,"text":"一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入"},{"start":15201.3,"end":15204.783,"text":"所以就是說30%是到中科院然後70%是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才"},{"start":15222.276,"end":15236.663,"text":"那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪因為中科院是主合約商結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意所以可不可以解釋一下"},{"start":15250.822,"end":15276.622,"text":"是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":15277.911,"end":15296.983,"text":"就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些罰款"},{"start":15297.803,"end":15301.768,"text":"因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋"},{"start":15313.7,"end":15318.544,"text":"這樣我是覺得這樣的話是不是應該全部要繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算"},{"start":15338.781,"end":15344.75,"text":"即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝"},{"start":15350.359,"end":15375.988,"text":"那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈率應該是"},{"start":15377.228,"end":15385.035,"text":"近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止"},{"start":15402.049,"end":15426.292,"text":"編制員額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整17460人等於三年內整個蒸發掉34個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來100分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成60分"},{"start":15427.173,"end":15453.504,"text":"那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援"},{"start":15457.728,"end":15471.744,"text":"委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證元額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況"},{"start":15472.805,"end":15492.73,"text":"所以我們為了使國防預算能夠做妥適的一個運用那所以我們就是希望能夠核實編列所以今年我們就是更加的來精準的來計算這些的一個數字包括我們的招募的目標還有我們的離退的長數跟我們發薪的長數那就是希望能夠更精準的來估算這個人員維持費的一個部分"},{"start":15494.451,"end":15513.524,"text":"因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數呈現不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緩和看你要怎麼去編那個"},{"start":15514.184,"end":15521.349,"text":"但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以"},{"start":15540.101,"end":15543.943,"text":"請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓整個員額減少我們買那麼多裝備卻把志願役的人力一再一再地砍這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢"},{"start":15560.614,"end":15578.908,"text":"我們實際的我想在營的人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的在營的人數沒有"},{"start":15582.691,"end":15600.445,"text":"像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營的人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備所以這些"},{"start":15601.766,"end":15605.188,"text":"戰備 裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人 沒有軍人這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰"},{"start":15620.872,"end":15643.929,"text":"對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況"},{"start":15645.137,"end":15648.698,"text":"我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那"},{"start":15674.963,"end":15679.747,"text":"部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢"},{"start":15690.311,"end":15704.64,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":15707.242,"end":15719.716,"text":"事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強"},{"start":15722.399,"end":15739.085,"text":"所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加級之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加級的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有一些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構"},{"start":15741.087,"end":15755.659,"text":"將戰鬥部隊的加急把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的恢復我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好"},{"start":15757.139,"end":15779.91,"text":"好 北溪還是提醒部長因為北溪其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎"},{"start":15782.771,"end":15789.699,"text":"是 我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升官兵的待遇謝謝接下來請邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在"},{"start":15800.475,"end":15820.24,"text":"我們今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢及未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部已書面於兩週內答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}