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11:28:54","會議時間":"2026-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算。\n二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n三、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算。\n四、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算。\n五、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算。\n六、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基金預算。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答；開會事由一至六預算提案截止收件時間：6月10日下午4時】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":0.7565937500000001,"end":3.1697187500000004,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":4.21596875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":9.582218750000003,"end":10.03784375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":10.645343750000002,"end":14.35784375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":15.302843750000001,"end":41.77971875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":42.43784375,"end":56.393468750000004,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":44.71596875,"end":44.766593750000006,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":44.783468750000004,"end":45.07034375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":57.000968750000006,"end":61.35471875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":60.899093750000006,"end":61.236593750000004,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":62.181593750000005,"end":72.34034375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":73.16721875,"end":75.24284375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":76.15409375,"end":100.18409375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":100.48784375000001,"end":110.25846875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":111.55784375,"end":123.23534375000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":123.35346875,"end":209.48346875000001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":210.29346875000002,"end":218.52846875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":218.81534375,"end":225.05909375000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":223.96221875,"end":225.93659375000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":225.09284375000001,"end":225.46409375000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":226.49346875,"end":229.78409375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":228.90659375,"end":229.24409375000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":230.49284375000002,"end":233.78346875000003,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":234.37409375000001,"end":240.90471875000003,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":241.64721875,"end":245.35971875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":245.35971875,"end":245.88284375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":245.88284375,"end":259.24784375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":259.83846875,"end":268.47846875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":268.47846875,"end":268.61346875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":268.61346875000004,"end":271.70159375000003,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":272.10659375,"end":274.11471875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":274.50284375,"end":281.87721875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":282.48471875,"end":284.30721875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":285.16784375000003,"end":286.01159375000003,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":286.01159375000003,"end":286.33221875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":286.36596875000004,"end":294.21284375000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":293.21721875000003,"end":298.48221875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":297.65534375000004,"end":298.34721875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員健豪","start":298.70159375000003,"end":307.54409375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":301.89096875,"end":302.98784375,"speak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rt":0.762,"end":13.53,"text":"好謝謝主席我們一樣請林益晶部長好請部長委員好部長好部長好這個稍早之前孟愷委員提到關於這個"},{"start":15.576,"end":41.588,"text":"電子煙的部分那因為我想今天內政委會其實也排了一個專報在針對我們這個獨駕相關的法律要修法但其實我們在很多地方也談過一件事情修法一定要修法要加重懲罰一定要加重懲罰但是今天會有懲罰的問題是事情已經發生了所以核心的問題是說我們源頭怎麼管制包含說現在所謂電子煙嘛剛剛部長提到說你可能要黑化其實孟愷有一件事我也是引述他的這個言論就是說真的"},{"start":42.472,"end":60.986,"text":"我完全沒有用什麼黑化我就是用電子菸上網搜尋是你就會找到這些平台它現在就在我們的就是Google上面就找得到了是那再看一下有確定什麼有確定是說主管機關是衛福部沒錯所以衛福部會通報你們把它封鎖我們看一下"},{"start":62.233,"end":73.839,"text":"達到封鎖了所以封鎖之後有的網站點進去之後用電腦用平板點進去之後他會顯示說此網域已經遭到封鎖是但是呢我又用手機欸點的開欸"},{"start":76.192,"end":99.966,"text":"我用手機可以點的開喔這是我用我剛剛自己手機實際證實的這件事情因為同仁傳給我傳到我們的工作群組LINE嘛所以我用LINE的這個第一個是我用LINE的這個這個直接用他的APP打開的時候他在網站直接打開的然後我在同時在選擇說然後我用Google Chrome開啟也可以開啟所以這件事情我想這個就是一個破洞這個漏洞啊"},{"start":100.586,"end":109.693,"text":"那再往下走它其實還可以實質上的去做相關的一些交易它都是能夠直接做那像這個網站來講它是2015年就存在了所以我要問的是說"},{"start":111.621,"end":139.608,"text":"今天網站上有這樣的事情那到底這個是誰的業務這個是誰責任到底由誰要來把這個源頭的這個電子煙的販賣管道來把它阻斷是誰的責任OK 就如同我剛才講的就有點像打棒球就是說那個對方打出滾地球到三壘的時候三壘手接到球要傳給一壘那現在就是等於說衛福部有點像三壘手他負責把這個球那個接到要傳給一壘那我們這邊就是去處理嘛那"},{"start":140.828,"end":166.322,"text":"委員提到這些問題我覺得非常好也希望說委員能把這些資料都提供給我們那必須在幾個方面說明如果說是在委員的手機上可以看得到第一個我們要去看一下就是DNS RPZ這個機制是不是您用的那個DNS Server試看是哪一家我們找找看他可能現在沒有加入我們這個DNS RPZ這個聯防的平台但是我也必須跟委員解釋就是說"},{"start":167.142,"end":187.635,"text":"我們現在用的這個DNSRPC是各個民主國家裡面通常會採行的方法它封鎖的是網域而不是網址網域就是一個譬如說那個www.abc.com這是網域我們是在這個層次封鎖但是如果在那個網址就譬如說104.83.255.67等這種網址的話因為現在全世界大概只有四個國家會在這個"},{"start":194.339,"end":208.768,"text":"層面做大規模的封鎖就是中國俄羅斯然後北朝鮮跟伊朗那通常民主國家因為為了要保護那個網路言論自由還有這個網路世界的一個算是一個大家那個"},{"start":210.439,"end":225.641,"text":"一個共識就是我們不會在那個IP的這個層次封鎖所以這個地方是比較困難一點就是我們必須在那個保護那個國人的安全跟保護國人的自由時間其實我要問的是"},{"start":226.562,"end":240.798,"text":"我的手機也沒做過什麼特別的設定我要講的是說其實我要提醒一個點說比如說剛剛我講的一個破口是什麼我在電腦上面在平板上面開不了我第一時間在我手機也開不了可是如果我透過LINE"},{"start":241.679,"end":259.074,"text":"的這個APP那個網址我點進去我就打開了打開之後我再用同樣從那個介面上面去選擇選擇用控制開啟嘛也可以順利進去了就可以交易了然後也可以下載APP而且不是只有一個網站在這個頁面裡面其實是兩個網站所以"},{"start":259.895,"end":282.548,"text":"我當然覺得說你剛剛講說衛福提供你們去封鎖這有封鎖確實有做了但問題是到底它還有多少的漏洞這應該是你們專業才對啊我沒有做特別設備我沒有去做任何的這個去繞貨怎麼樣它就是直接的所以我今天我想買我就可以直接買了當然我是沒有買我是說這個東西是可以做到所以到底問題出在哪裡我覺得這個是速發部應該要去針對你們的專業去調整"},{"start":285.388,"end":305.394,"text":"這可以嗎 部長可以 這個我們要盡快去了解那也麻煩委員把這些網站還有這個操作的過程提供給我們那我們馬上會去查我稍後就傳LINE給部長讓你知道說這個網站在哪裡至少是兩個以上所以我覺得這個還是這個我講 這個不是黑話他就真的 我就抽尋電子煙而已真的就做這件事情而已 好不好好 沒問題好 那接下來有一項討論也是蘇巴波這個業務就其實"},{"start":308.342,"end":329.884,"text":"我們現在講到講飛鴻供應鏈那這個飛鴻供應鏈到底要到什麼樣的層級包含說我們現在很多公務機關在買錄音筆影音機視訊設備等等的都希望說他一定要做到所謂飛鴻所以有大陸廠牌的話要主管機關要去做相關的這個限制那這個業務的主管機關當然就是數位部嘛但我們遇到一個問題是很多"},{"start":331.005,"end":346.427,"text":"公務機關的同仁他們很不好意思跟你們講透過立法院來發聲他們發文去問數位部說到底這個東西可不可以買這個東西到底怎麼樣那數位部每次的回應原則上就是給提出一個風險的指引那你沒辦法很明確的說可以買"},{"start":347.128,"end":374.486,"text":"還是不可以買所以到最後這個風險則要回到各業務機關裡面去所以我要跟你說其實有這個法律那要這樣做那其實實務上我們講在撇開所有各種立場實務上今天市面上你要買到所謂錄音筆你要買到這些不是最高端的不是高階的這些電子商品的時候它最大的廠牌最便宜的或最好用的最流通性最高的就都是大陸製中國製啊是那到底要怎麼樣公務機關要能夠怎麼繞開去買到"},{"start":377.409,"end":389.967,"text":"符合法令的東西又或者是說會不會說其實這些入資廠商他隨便去投資一個歐美的品牌他進來他算入資還是算外資這個問題我覺得是數位部你們在列"},{"start":391.041,"end":417.29,"text":"要不然開白名單要不然開黑名單要不然大家公務機關同仁會無法配合這個政策嗎 部長是委員說的狀況我們有掌握到的確現在在這個危害國家自通安全產品的管理上面的確是不夠明確所以我們現在那個資安署現在有在做整個流程的改善整個系統制度的改善那我們希望說第一個我們要去看這個每個"},{"start":418.911,"end":435.163,"text":"那個產品它有這個廠牌還有它的生產地這個必須分開來處理因為有些是譬如說是美國或者台灣的廠牌在中國大陸生產這到底能不能算算不算危害國家自動產權產品這個我們必須釐清那另外一件事情是說那個我們"},{"start":435.723,"end":451.436,"text":"那個很多的零組件我們必須把它列出來所以我們現在要求那個廠商必須在申報的時候必須說明他提供他這個報表然後我們就用廠商自主申報的方式我們來做管理那是不是我們請那個資安署署長再做進一步說明"},{"start":452.76,"end":468.938,"text":"是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個提問那的確是有關於危害國家專業產品我們主要是風險來管控相關的這個它的這個情況那當然的確提到如果是屬於中國廠牌那當然因為它相對的風險就比較高那我們當然就是在危害國家專業產品的範圍裡面"},{"start":470.259,"end":491.881,"text":"那剛剛也有提到包括產地各方面所以剛剛部長也特別指示整個在我們這個整個審查過程應該是簡單的我們就先處理那我們就去看他有沒有紅色公務員例如說他有一些縫表就是零組件的部分他有沒有一些邏輯運算的功能那如果有邏輯運算跟聯網的功能那基本上他可能會判定是說他可能是有一些相關比較高的外國家產品的風險"},{"start":494.343,"end":522.425,"text":"那如果都是一般沒有的一般的像說像這個風扇等等的沒有這種邏輯運算功能的話那我們就會判別說它沒有危害的這樣一個風險好 我們希望數位部會盡快把這個指引要很明確也要讓公務同事 至少公務機關同仁要很知道說因為其實這個東西不是只有中央部會你說到各學校各地方政府轄下的各機關每次問就講這個其實是很困擾那再來看到其實依據這個母法第九條裡面也是有一個bug就是說在這個"},{"start":524.107,"end":544.895,"text":"本法實行前即便它是可以專案方式使用危害國家自動安全產品者在本辦法實施後可以繼續使用這到底什麼意思就是說你這個法律你擺在這邊但你又明白講說這個東西會危害國家自動安全它是這樣的產品結果它還可以繼續使用那不是很奇怪的事情嗎"},{"start":546.415,"end":574.227,"text":"是跟我們報告因為已經購買了所以基本上還是可以繼續使用但是要有相關的安全管控的措施萊曼部長說一下就是說有時候譬如說我們的那個治安院他要檢測那個中國大陸一些產品的安全性要研究它的各種內部的那個設計等等那這時候我們的治安院就必須去購買一個中國大陸的產品那這個產品原來是在我們的這個黑名單裡面"},{"start":575.187,"end":597.534,"text":"但是這個時候因為我們要研究這種產品我們當然要去買嘛還有一些研究單位譬如說他想要做中國大陸研究那他當然得去購買一些中國大陸的那個不管是軟體或硬體的產品或是那個資料庫等等這時候我們就是專案去核准這個是這條法條的主要意義好那第七條也是啦就是我要最後最後結論就是你看"},{"start":598.494,"end":624.529,"text":"這個定期確認有其他題材發生這個責任是第一線承辦員做還是你們數位部來做這個東西我覺得要講清楚是這樣子 就是說講這個專案控管的話就是由機關的治安長去核定然後再報書報部這邊來核定這個是整個一個流程的部分那基本上還是看它這機關自己本身管控它的風險就是有沒有這種資料傳到中國大陸去等等相關的風險還是大家來看相關的風險 以上"},{"start":625.273,"end":644.755,"text":"好 最後啦 反正這個東西就是說 這個整個資安的問題喔當然現在做什麼飛鴻 本席都支持啦那重點是要能夠符合現實啦 是總不能說 我就買不到 我只能去買大陸的那結果你又說我違反資安 這個事情我覺得這個責任你不能讓第一線同學承擔 是數位部應該擔起說那你們確定這沒問題 可以買"},{"start":646.337,"end":673.459,"text":"或是怎麼樣 而不是只是提供說風險評估讓你風險你自己地方業務 業務單位自己決定就是這個風險到底能不能 可以買 可以不可以買這個決定 這個責任 應該是專業單位而不是在地線同仁 可不可以 部長完全同意 這點我們會繼續改進我事實上也注意到這件事情了 我也要求我們同仁一定要把這個地方改進不要讓那個地方的那些公務西層人員 增加他們困擾好 部長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:17:38.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:17:40.504000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們一樣請林宜敬部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:17:40.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:17:46.608000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:17:46.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:17:46.828000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:17:47.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:17:47.749000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:17:48.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:18:12.965000+08:00","text":"部長，稍早之前孟楷委員有提到關於電子煙的部分，我想今天內政委員會也排了一個專報，針對毒駕相關的法令要修法，其實我們在很多地方也談過這件事情，修法是一定要修法，要加重懲罰，一定要加重懲罰，而今天會有懲罰，但事情已經發生了，所以核心問題是源頭怎麼管制，包含現在所謂的電子煙。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:18:13.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:18:30.260000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長提到可能要用黑話，其實孟楷有講一件事情，我也是引述他的言論，就是說真的，我完全沒有用什麼黑話，我就是用「電子煙」上網搜尋就找到這些平臺，現在在Google上面就找得到了。是。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:18:31.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:18:32.462000+08:00","text":"再看一下有趣的事情是什麼？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:18:32.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:18:54.093000+08:00","text":"有趣的事情是，主管機關是衛福部沒錯，所以衛福部會通報你們把它封鎖，把它封鎖了，在封鎖之後，有的網站點進去之後，用電腦、用平板點進去之後會顯示：此網域已經遭到封鎖，但是我如果用手機就點得開，我用手機可以點得開喔！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:18:55.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:16.786000+08:00","text":"剛剛我用自己的手機實際證實了這件事情，因為同仁傳給我、傳到我們LINE的工作群組，第一個是我用LINE，直接用它的app打開的時候，它的網站是可以打開的，然後我同時再選擇用Google Chrome開啟也可以開啟，所以我想這就是一個破洞、漏洞。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:18.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:33.382000+08:00","text":"再往下走，他其實還可以實質上去做相關的交易，都能夠直接做，以這個網站來講，它2015年就存在了，所以我要問的是，今天網站上有這樣的事情，到底這是誰的業務？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:33.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:33.662000+08:00","text":"這是誰的責任？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:33.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:39.524000+08:00","text":"到底是誰要來把這個源頭、電子煙的販賣管道阻斷？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:39.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:39.984000+08:00","text":"這是誰的責任？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:40.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:19:56.148000+08:00","text":"就如同我剛剛講的，就有點像打棒球，對方打出滾地球到三壘的時候，三壘手接到球要傳給一壘，等於衛福部有點像三壘手，他負責把這個球接到，要傳給一壘，我們就要去處理。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:19:57.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:20:03.351000+08:00","text":"委員提到這些問題我覺得非常好，也希望委員能把這些資料都提供給我們。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:20:03.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:20:20.960000+08:00","text":"我們必須在幾個方面說明，如果那個在委員的手機上可以看得到，第一個、我們要去看一下DNS RPZ這個機制，看您用的DNS server是哪一家，我們去找找看，它可能現在沒有加入我們DNS RPZ這個聯防平臺。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:20:21.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:20:31.707000+08:00","text":"但是我也必須跟委員解釋，我們現在用的這個DNS RPZ是各個民主國家裡面通常會採行的方法，它封鎖的是網域，而不是網址。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:20:32.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:20:42.534000+08:00","text":"網域譬如www.abc.com，這是網域，我們是在這個層次封鎖；如果是網址，就變成104.83.255.67等。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:20:42.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:20:57.383000+08:00","text":"網址的話，現在全世界大概只有四個國家會在這個層面做大規模封鎖，就是中國、俄羅斯、北朝鮮及伊朗。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:20:57.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:21:22.120000+08:00","text":"通常民主國家為了要保護網路言論自由……這在網路世界算是大家的一個共識，不會在IP這個層次封鎖，所以這個地方比較困難一點，就是我們必須在保護國人的安全與保護國人的言論自由之間……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:21:22.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:21:55.154000+08:00","text":"沒關係，部長，我要講的是我的手機也沒做過什麼特別的設定，我要提醒的一點是剛剛我講的一個破口是什麼，我在電腦上面、在平板上面開不了，我第一時間用手機也開不了，可是如果透過LINE這個app，那個網址我點得進去，我就打開了，打開之後，我同樣從那個介面上面去選擇用Chrome開啟，也可以順利進去，就可以交易了，也可以下載他的app，而且不是只有一個網站，在這個頁面裡面是兩個網站。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:21:57.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:02.918000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講衛福部提供，你們去封鎖，這有封鎖，確實有做了，但問題是到底他還有多少漏洞？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:03.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:06.981000+08:00","text":"這應該是你們的專業才對，我沒有做特別的設定……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:06.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:07.981000+08:00","text":"是，了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:06.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:16.846000+08:00","text":"我沒有去做任何的或怎麼樣，就是直接進去，如果今天我想買，我就可以直接買了，當然我是沒有買，我只是說這個東西是可以做到的，所以到底問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:16.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:23.048000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個是數發部應該要以你們的專業去調整的，可以嗎？部長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:23.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:30.030000+08:00","text":"可以，這個我們儘快去了解，也麻煩委員把這些網站還有操作的過程提供給我們，我們馬上會去查，看要怎麼樣……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:30.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:35.052000+08:00","text":"好，我稍後就傳LINE給部長，讓你知道這個網站在哪裡，至少是兩個以上，所以我覺得這個還是……好。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:35.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:40.274000+08:00","text":"我講的這個不是黑話，我就搜尋電子煙而已，真的就做這件事情而已，好不好？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:40.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:40.794000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:41.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:22:50.327000+08:00","text":"接下來，也一樣討論到數發部的業務，就是我們現在都在講非紅供應鏈，但這個非紅供應鏈到底要到什麼樣的層級？","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:22:50.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:23:05.022000+08:00","text":"包含現在很多公務機關在買錄音筆、影印機、視訊設備等等的時候，我們都希望他一定要做到所謂非紅，所以有大陸廠牌的話，主管機關要去做相關限制，這個業務的主管機關當然就是數位部……是。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:23:05.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:23:15.756000+08:00","text":"但我們遇到一個問題，很多公務機關的同仁可能不好意思跟你們講，所以透過立法院來發聲，就是他們發文去問數位部，到底這個東西可不可以買？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:23:15.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:23:16.898000+08:00","text":"這個東西到底怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:23:17.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:23:27.791000+08:00","text":"數位部每次的回應原則上就是提出一個風險指引，你沒辦法很明確說可以買還是不可以買，所以到最後這個風險責任又回到各業務機關裡面。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:23:28.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:23:55.110000+08:00","text":"我要說，雖然有這個法律，要這樣做，但我們撇開各種立場，實務上，今天市面上要買到所謂錄音筆、要買到影印機，這些不是最高端的、不是高階的電子商品，它最大的廠牌、最便宜的或最好用的、流通性最高的就都是大陸製、中國製，公務機關到底要怎麼繞開去買到符合法令的東西？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:23:55.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:24:04.904000+08:00","text":"又或者會不會這些陸資廠商隨便去投資一個歐美品牌，它進來算陸資還是算外資？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:24:04.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:24:14.683000+08:00","text":"這個問題，我覺得數位部要不然開白名單，要不然開黑名單，要不然，公務機關的同仁會無法配合這個政策，部長。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:24:15.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:24:32.090000+08:00","text":"委員說的狀況，我們有掌握到，現在在危害國家資通安全產品的管理上面的確是不夠明確，所以現在資安署有在做整個流程的改善、整個系統制度的改善。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:24:32.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:25:05.033000+08:00","text":"我們希望第一個、要去看每個產品的廠牌，還有生產地，這個必須分開來處理，因為有些是美國或者臺灣的廠牌在中國大陸生產，這到底算不算危害國家資通安全產品，我們必須釐清；另外一件事情是很多零組件必須列出來，所以我們現在要求廠商在申報的時候必須提供他的BOM表，我們是用廠商自主申報的方式管理。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:25:05.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:25:08.416000+08:00","text":"是不是我們請資安署署長再做進一步的說明？好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:25:10.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:25:12.103000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員剛剛的提問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:25:12.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:25:18.810000+08:00","text":"有關於危害國家資通安全產品，我們主要是用風險來管控相關情況。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:25:20.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:00.170000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到，如果是屬於中國廠牌，當然它相對的風險就比較高，當然就是在危害國家資通安全產品的範圍裡面；剛剛也有提到，包括產地各方面，剛剛部長也特別指示，在我們這整個審查過程，應該是簡單的，就先處理，我們會去看看有沒有紅色供應鏈，例如它的BOM表，就是零組件部分，看看有沒有邏輯運算的功能，如果有邏輯運算和連網功能，基本上，會判定它可能有比較高的危害國家資通安全風險，如果是一般沒有的，像風扇等等的，沒有邏輯運算功能的話，我們就會判別它沒有這樣危害的風險。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:00.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:14.361000+08:00","text":"好，我們希望數位部儘快讓這個指引明確，至少要讓公務機關的同仁知道，因為這個東西不是只有中央部會，還有各學校、各地方政府轄下的各機關，他們每次問，你就講這個，他們當然很困擾。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:14.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:30.491000+08:00","text":"再來看到，依據這個辦法第九條，這是一個bug，就是在本辦法施行前，已經以專案方式使用危害國家資通安全產品者，在本辦法實施後，可以繼續使用。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:30.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:31.291000+08:00","text":"這到底是什麼意思？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:32.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:41.895000+08:00","text":"我是說這個法律擺在這邊，又明白講這個東西是危害國家資通安全產品，結果他還可以繼續使用，那不是很奇怪的事情嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:43.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:51.519000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，因為已經購買了，所以基本上還是可以去使用，但是要有相關的安全管控措施……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:51.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:52.519000+08:00","text":"我來說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:52.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:26:52.739000+08:00","text":"部長，說一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:26:53.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:27:31.593000+08:00","text":"就是譬如我們的資安院要檢測一些中國大陸產品的安全性，還有研究它內部的各種設計等等，資安院就必須去購買這個中國大陸的產品，這個產品原來是在我們的黑名單裡面，但是因為我們要研究這種產品，當然要去買，還有一些研究單位想要做中國大陸的研究，他當然得去購買一些中國大陸的產品，不管是軟體或硬體，或是資料庫等等，這時候我們就是專案去核准，這個是這條法條的主要意義。好。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:27:31.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:27:41.678000+08:00","text":"第七條也是，我要最後做結論了，就是定期確認有無其他替代方案，這個是第一線承辦人員做，還是數位部來做？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:27:42.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:27:42.838000+08:00","text":"這個東西我覺得要講清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:27:44.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:27:51.423000+08:00","text":"假設專案控管的話，就是由機關的資安長去核定，再報數發部來核定，這個是整個流程。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:27:52.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:02.273000+08:00","text":"基本上，機關自己本身還是要管控他的風險，就是有沒有資料傳到中國大陸等等相關的風險，大家還是要來看相關風險，以上。好。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:02.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:15.488000+08:00","text":"最後，反正就是整個資安的問題，當然現在說非紅，本席也都支持，重點是要能夠符合現實，總不能我就買不到，只能去買大陸的，結果你又說我違反資安。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:16.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:37.388000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個責任你不能讓第一線同仁去承擔，是數位部應該擔起，你們確定這沒問題，可以買或可以怎麼樣，而不是只是提供風險評估，至於風險，業務單位自己決定，也就是這個東西到底可不可以買，這個決定、這個責任應該是在專業單位，而不是在第一線同仁，可不可以？部長。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:37.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:49.658000+08:00","text":"是，完全同意，這一點我們會繼續改進，我事實上也注意到這件事情，我會要求我們同仁一定要改進這個地方，不要增加基層公務人員的困擾。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:49.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:50.459000+08:00","text":"好，部長，謝謝，主席，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:50.959000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:52.959000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃健豪召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員健豪）","start":"2026-06-03T11:28:53.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:28:56.401857+08:00","text":"接下來請邱若華委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}