{"error":false,"id":["16979"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16979,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16979","日期":"2025-10-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"公聽會-2025101636","會議代碼:str":"「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會","屆":11,"會期":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"公聽會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-10-23T08:38:09+08:00","結束時間":"2025-10-23T12:44:00+08:00","影片長度":"04:05:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc698c973f844725bd258b47ce3ecd0e3c0aa126c40303dc279ea51de163fd25e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:38:09 - 12:44:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1388.45534375,"end":1412.6878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1413.3797187500002,"end":1416.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1419.91034375,"end":1425.2259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1428.0609687500003,"end":1432.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1433.6634687500002,"end":1435.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1436.39721875,"end":1440.7003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1443.83909375,"end":1449.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1453.27221875,"end":1458.0140937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1461.1022187500002,"end":1465.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1469.70846875,"end":1478.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1480.5759687500001,"end":1482.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1482.7528437500002,"end":1489.7559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1491.49409375,"end":1496.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1498.8009687500003,"end":1500.8765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1505.7534687500001,"end":1515.2540937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1517.8697187500002,"end":1523.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1524.9403437500002,"end":1528.5853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1530.59346875,"end":1538.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1540.75221875,"end":1545.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1546.2534687500001,"end":1639.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1641.71534375,"end":1653.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1654.23659375,"end":1731.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1735.3884687500001,"end":1771.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1772.1253437500002,"end":1778.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1780.0228437500002,"end":1780.8497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1780.93409375,"end":1780.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1780.9509687500001,"end":1782.7059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1800.8128437500002,"end":1806.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1806.7359687500002,"end":1816.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1817.06346875,"end":1889.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1890.7397187500003,"end":2043.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2044.2853437500003,"end":2046.9178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2048.5378437500003,"end":2048.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2048.7403437499997,"end":2246.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2247.51096875,"end":2290.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2290.8797187500004,"end":2309.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2310.18471875,"end":2319.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2320.49534375,"end":2426.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2427.9384687500005,"end":2429.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2429.54159375,"end":2429.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2429.6934687500006,"end":2438.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2437.84409375,"end":2438.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2445.37034375,"end":2447.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2447.8847187500005,"end":2460.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2461.40159375,"end":2466.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2467.44284375,"end":2470.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2476.5047187500004,"end":2478.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2479.62659375,"end":2484.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2484.8915937500005,"end":2490.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2490.7978437500005,"end":2493.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2494.1559687500003,"end":2498.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2500.1972187500005,"end":2503.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2503.60596875,"end":2506.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2509.30971875,"end":2514.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2514.86159375,"end":2516.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2517.3590937500003,"end":2519.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2520.04221875,"end":2522.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2523.24846875,"end":2526.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2530.6903437500005,"end":2531.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2531.4159687500005,"end":2536.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2536.9509687500004,"end":2542.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2543.5322187500005,"end":2552.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2554.1803437500002,"end":2556.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2557.16721875,"end":2562.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2577.9403437500005,"end":2581.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2582.3447187500005,"end":2589.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2591.0690937500003,"end":2594.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2594.2753437500005,"end":2598.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2599.11846875,"end":2601.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2602.8309687500005,"end":2606.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2611.4540937500005,"end":2614.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2615.1834687500004,"end":2616.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2617.2928437500004,"end":2622.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2623.63784375,"end":2629.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2630.4215937500003,"end":2644.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2645.10284375,"end":2650.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2655.2615937500004,"end":2656.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2657.33721875,"end":2665.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2666.19659375,"end":2675.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2680.79346875,"end":2686.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2687.0372187500006,"end":2693.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2694.36096875,"end":2699.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2699.9297187500006,"end":2701.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2703.01784375,"end":2704.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2705.38034375,"end":2706.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2706.9665937500004,"end":2710.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2710.7128437500005,"end":2714.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2714.5097187500005,"end":2717.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2718.52596875,"end":2724.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2726.00159375,"end":2728.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2729.0390937500006,"end":2730.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2731.84034375,"end":2733.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2734.06784375,"end":2736.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2736.59909375,"end":2740.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2741.30721875,"end":2742.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2742.6065937500007,"end":2746.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2751.1959687500002,"end":2760.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2761.3884687500004,"end":2764.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2764.6453437500004,"end":2766.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2767.4128437500003,"end":2770.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2770.88909375,"end":2774.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2775.2428437500002,"end":2778.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2778.3309687500005,"end":2781.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2781.7059687500005,"end":2783.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2784.20346875,"end":2789.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2789.7215937500005,"end":2792.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2793.8728437500004,"end":2798.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2799.10409375,"end":2804.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2805.3815937500003,"end":2810.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2811.33846875,"end":2815.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2815.8778437500005,"end":2818.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2819.4384687500005,"end":2820.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2821.4297187500006,"end":2823.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2823.5390937500006,"end":2824.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2824.82159375,"end":2832.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2833.15784375,"end":2834.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2837.1403437500003,"end":2837.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2837.79846875,"end":2838.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2838.55784375,"end":2840.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2840.9540937500005,"end":2841.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2842.9284687500003,"end":2844.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2845.3584687500006,"end":2848.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2848.58159375,"end":2850.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2850.69096875,"end":2853.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2853.62721875,"end":2859.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2860.0059687500006,"end":2862.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2863.6003437500003,"end":2871.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2872.56096875,"end":2876.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2877.2184687500003,"end":2880.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2880.9647187500004,"end":2882.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2883.2597187500005,"end":2888.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2888.7272187500002,"end":2891.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2892.2372187500005,"end":2894.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2895.1397187500006,"end":2895.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2896.2872187500006,"end":2900.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2902.9022187500004,"end":2905.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2905.5515937500004,"end":2915.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2915.94659375,"end":2916.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2919.32159375,"end":2923.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2923.7428437500002,"end":2926.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2927.4384687500005,"end":2931.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2931.3534687500005,"end":2936.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2937.4959687500004,"end":2945.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2946.4903437500006,"end":2952.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2953.4765937500006,"end":2956.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2956.51409375,"end":2958.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2959.33221875,"end":2960.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2961.3065937500005,"end":2967.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2967.31409375,"end":2969.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2970.2165937500004,"end":2973.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2973.92909375,"end":2977.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2978.1140937500004,"end":2979.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2980.3584687500006,"end":2984.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2986.8553437500004,"end":2987.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2987.47971875,"end":3000.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3001.09784375,"end":3006.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3006.4472187500005,"end":3011.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3012.03284375,"end":3028.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3028.7390937500004,"end":3032.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3033.1434687500005,"end":3040.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3041.2097187500003,"end":3044.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3044.50034375,"end":3045.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3045.90096875,"end":3054.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3057.2578437500006,"end":3058.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3059.02971875,"end":3062.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3071.43284375,"end":3168.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3169.39221875,"end":3214.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3215.42721875,"end":3230.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3231.08721875,"end":3246.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3247.48971875,"end":3295.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3297.03471875,"end":3347.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3347.7947187500004,"end":3440.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3441.8053437500002,"end":3468.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3469.02471875,"end":3470.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3470.96534375,"end":3501.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3504.41159375,"end":3509.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3519.24471875,"end":3554.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3559.98096875,"end":3602.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3603.7547187500004,"end":3649.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3649.6884687500005,"end":3652.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3652.18596875,"end":3686.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3686.4422187500004,"end":3701.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3702.1022187500002,"end":3710.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3716.66534375,"end":3729.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3730.06409375,"end":3748.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3748.42409375,"end":3766.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3766.8347187500003,"end":3799.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3803.45346875,"end":3818.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3818.52284375,"end":3837.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3844.9659687500007,"end":3879.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3879.8634687500007,"end":3879.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3880.0997187500006,"end":3889.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3890.66346875,"end":3900.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3900.7040937500005,"end":3910.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3910.98096875,"end":3918.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3919.6209687500004,"end":3946.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3947.0428437500004,"end":3956.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3962.2978437500005,"end":3999.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4000.84034375,"end":4014.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4015.7072187500007,"end":4030.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4038.1847187500007,"end":4042.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4042.79159375,"end":4047.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4047.71909375,"end":4052.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4053.3722187500007,"end":4073.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4073.6728437500005,"end":4078.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4084.8778437500005,"end":4098.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4098.968468749999,"end":4123.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4126.52534375,"end":4131.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4132.6678437499995,"end":4133.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4134.220343749999,"end":4136.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4136.7684687500005,"end":4139.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4151.97284375,"end":4155.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4152.732218749999,"end":4154.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4155.364718750001,"end":4155.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4163.1103437500005,"end":4164.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4169.573468750001,"end":4170.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4171.345343749999,"end":4171.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4171.9697187500005,"end":4174.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4174.686593750001,"end":4179.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4179.34409375,"end":4183.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4184.389718750001,"end":4193.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4194.6834687499995,"end":4204.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4204.74096875,"end":4208.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4208.4872187500005,"end":4222.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4222.544093750001,"end":4224.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4225.159718749999,"end":4231.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4231.75784375,"end":4243.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4244.44784375,"end":4245.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4246.439093749999,"end":4259.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4260.44534375,"end":4260.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4261.575968749999,"end":4272.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4273.05096875,"end":4287.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4287.63096875,"end":4293.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4293.90846875,"end":4300.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4300.405343750001,"end":4301.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4301.92409375,"end":4304.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4305.2147187499995,"end":4315.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4316.385968750001,"end":4318.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4319.339093750001,"end":4319.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4320.77346875,"end":4323.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4323.33846875,"end":4325.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4326.02159375,"end":4334.847218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4335.454718749999,"end":4342.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4342.727843750001,"end":4352.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4352.78534375,"end":4354.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4354.89471875,"end":4370.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4370.841593749999,"end":4387.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.19346875,"end":4388.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4388.64471875,"end":4391.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4392.357218749999,"end":4393.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4394.618468750001,"end":4397.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4398.044093750001,"end":4399.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4400.17034375,"end":4401.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4402.060343749999,"end":4403.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4403.5115937499995,"end":4405.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4405.958468750001,"end":4409.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4409.940968749999,"end":4421.753468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4422.175343749999,"end":4422.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4423.13721875,"end":4424.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4424.757218750001,"end":4441.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4442.2059687500005,"end":4449.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4450.00221875,"end":4471.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4472.26034375,"end":4491.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4491.9872187500005,"end":4508.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4508.82846875,"end":4516.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4516.5740937499995,"end":4519.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4520.151593750001,"end":4521.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4522.497218750001,"end":4527.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4528.79159375,"end":4529.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4530.512843750001,"end":4538.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4538.325968749999,"end":4538.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4539.186593750001,"end":4548.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4548.9403437500005,"end":4557.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4558.23846875,"end":4559.706593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4560.61784375,"end":4561.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4562.0184687500005,"end":4568.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4569.780968749999,"end":4570.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4571.60346875,"end":4571.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4573.08846875,"end":4581.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4581.6103437500005,"end":4582.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4583.82096875,"end":4586.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4587.465968750001,"end":4589.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4590.01409375,"end":4594.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4595.0428437499995,"end":4605.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4605.6572187500005,"end":4607.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4608.8465937500005,"end":4621.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4622.059718750001,"end":4676.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4676.68409375,"end":4677.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4678.1522187499995,"end":4682.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4683.19784375,"end":4730.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4731.038468750001,"end":4731.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4732.10159375,"end":4741.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4743.72846875,"end":4746.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4747.778468750001,"end":4751.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4751.895968750001,"end":4758.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4759.118468750001,"end":4762.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4762.544093750001,"end":4766.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4766.50971875,"end":4778.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4781.5115937499995,"end":4783.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4787.36721875,"end":4790.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4800.9853437500005,"end":4881.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4881.86721875,"end":4942.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4942.60034375,"end":4961.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4962.00659375,"end":4998.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4998.878468750001,"end":4998.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4999.1990937499995,"end":5114.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5115.06284375,"end":5130.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5130.77346875,"end":5137.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5137.65846875,"end":5140.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5141.624093750001,"end":5161.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5161.722218750001,"end":5174.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5174.749718749999,"end":5179.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5181.14534375,"end":5186.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5205.0740937499995,"end":5205.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5206.305968750001,"end":5215.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5216.9540937500005,"end":5235.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5235.66846875,"end":5237.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5237.27159375,"end":5249.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5249.64096875,"end":5251.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5251.93596875,"end":5258.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5258.36534375,"end":5265.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5265.925343750001,"end":5281.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5282.327843749999,"end":5307.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5307.53909375,"end":5315.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5316.48284375,"end":5320.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5321.17409375,"end":5338.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5338.84221875,"end":5367.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5367.7997187500005,"end":5371.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5371.64721875,"end":5373.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5373.368468750001,"end":5375.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5375.325968749999,"end":5387.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5388.420968750001,"end":5391.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5392.09971875,"end":5412.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5413.294718749999,"end":5416.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5417.46284375,"end":5419.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5420.2303437499995,"end":5422.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5423.1834687499995,"end":5424.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5424.21284375,"end":5425.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5426.27159375,"end":5427.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5428.110968749999,"end":5429.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5429.984093749999,"end":5430.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5431.51971875,"end":5438.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5439.180968750001,"end":5446.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5447.247218750001,"end":5459.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5460.20721875,"end":5460.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5460.94971875,"end":5463.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5464.1053437499995,"end":5469.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5469.96096875,"end":5474.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5475.310343749999,"end":5477.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5477.26784375,"end":5484.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5484.827843749999,"end":5487.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5488.18596875,"end":5492.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5492.32034375,"end":5493.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5494.682843750001,"end":5500.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5500.84221875,"end":5503.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5503.592843750001,"end":5504.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5504.55471875,"end":5513.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5514.139718750001,"end":5515.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5515.84409375,"end":5517.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5518.56096875,"end":5525.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5525.86784375,"end":5531.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5532.16221875,"end":5535.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5535.85784375,"end":5553.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5553.62721875,"end":5555.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5556.25971875,"end":5563.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5564.477843750001,"end":5566.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5566.14846875,"end":5574.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5574.7040937500005,"end":5575.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5575.42971875,"end":5576.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5576.91471875,"end":5578.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5578.872218750001,"end":5585.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5586.34784375,"end":5589.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5590.110968749999,"end":5593.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5594.39721875,"end":5610.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5610.58034375,"end":5611.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5612.11596875,"end":5613.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5613.887843750001,"end":5614.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5615.08596875,"end":5617.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5618.96721875,"end":5619.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5620.09784375,"end":5624.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5624.856593750001,"end":5626.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5627.55659375,"end":5635.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5635.538468750001,"end":5636.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5637.276593750001,"end":5641.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5642.06909375,"end":5652.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5653.814093749999,"end":5655.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5656.1259687500005,"end":5665.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5666.30159375,"end":5668.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5669.845343749999,"end":5677.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5677.60784375,"end":5680.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5680.544093750001,"end":5682.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5683.09221875,"end":5684.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5685.33659375,"end":5688.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5689.47096875,"end":5696.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5697.16596875,"end":5701.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5701.874093750001,"end":5703.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5703.84846875,"end":5707.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5708.421593749999,"end":5711.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5712.33659375,"end":5712.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5713.18034375,"end":5716.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5716.28534375,"end":5716.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5716.89284375,"end":5720.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5721.16221875,"end":5723.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5723.91284375,"end":5724.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5724.604718750001,"end":5728.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5728.97534375,"end":5732.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5732.35034375,"end":5737.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5737.69971875,"end":5738.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5738.847218750001,"end":5744.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5745.20909375,"end":5745.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5746.08659375,"end":5750.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5750.96346875,"end":5756.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5757.10596875,"end":5761.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5762.944718750001,"end":5763.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5763.872843749999,"end":5772.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5773.120343750001,"end":5787.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5787.514718750001,"end":5789.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5789.337218750001,"end":5792.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5793.77534375,"end":5796.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5796.779093749999,"end":5797.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5798.010968750001,"end":5803.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5803.7147187499995,"end":5806.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5806.80284375,"end":5811.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5811.44346875,"end":5816.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5818.682843750001,"end":5823.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5833.75221875,"end":5833.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5842.864718750001,"end":5850.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5851.04909375,"end":5851.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5852.432843750001,"end":5859.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5860.347218750001,"end":5862.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5862.91221875,"end":5866.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5867.2997187500005,"end":5868.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5868.63284375,"end":5872.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5873.475968750001,"end":5886.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5887.448468750001,"end":5894.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5894.654093749999,"end":5895.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5897.387843750001,"end":5901.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5901.5897187499995,"end":5903.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5904.30659375,"end":5914.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5916.692843750001,"end":5918.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5920.253468750001,"end":5926.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5927.96534375,"end":5936.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5937.38159375,"end":5938.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5939.40659375,"end":5940.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5940.85784375,"end":5947.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5947.4559687500005,"end":5949.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5950.08846875,"end":5951.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5952.602843750001,"end":5961.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5961.647843750001,"end":5964.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5964.735968750001,"end":5970.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5971.401593750001,"end":5974.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5975.704718750001,"end":5984.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5984.96909375,"end":5986.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5987.247218750001,"end":5993.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5993.524718750001,"end":5996.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5999.852843750001,"end":6003.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6004.442843750001,"end":6005.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6005.944718750001,"end":6007.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6008.91471875,"end":6012.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6013.8759687500005,"end":6017.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6017.92596875,"end":6036.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6037.0115937499995,"end":6038.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6038.96909375,"end":6041.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6041.7197187500005,"end":6042.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6043.4072187500005,"end":6046.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6047.64284375,"end":6055.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6055.4559687500005,"end":6060.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6061.345343750001,"end":6062.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6062.661593750001,"end":6065.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6065.665343750001,"end":6066.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6066.880343750001,"end":6069.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6069.647843750001,"end":6076.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6076.65096875,"end":6080.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6080.565968750001,"end":6100.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6102.975968750001,"end":6112.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6112.999718749999,"end":6114.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6114.99096875,"end":6116.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6116.610968750001,"end":6128.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6128.82846875,"end":6131.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6131.88284375,"end":6158.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6159.81096875,"end":6167.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6167.843468749999,"end":6168.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6170.08784375,"end":6175.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6176.83784375,"end":6184.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6185.241593750001,"end":6189.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6190.27034375,"end":6192.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6193.071593750001,"end":6193.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6194.185343749999,"end":6196.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6197.712218750001,"end":6201.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6201.99846875,"end":6203.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6204.327218750001,"end":6206.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6207.921593749999,"end":6209.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6211.296593749999,"end":6211.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6212.49471875,"end":6213.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6214.31721875,"end":6215.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6216.595343750001,"end":6223.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6225.28596875,"end":6227.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6227.88471875,"end":6233.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6234.3309687500005,"end":6235.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6238.819718750001,"end":6239.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6239.612843750001,"end":6252.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6253.956593750001,"end":6260.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6261.53346875,"end":6262.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6263.11971875,"end":6264.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6265.1278437500005,"end":6265.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6266.27534375,"end":6268.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6268.536593750001,"end":6269.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6269.58284375,"end":6271.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6271.5740937499995,"end":6273.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6274.206593750001,"end":6277.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6278.526593750001,"end":6282.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6282.593468749999,"end":6284.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6285.25971875,"end":6288.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6288.972218750001,"end":6290.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6291.62159375,"end":6292.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6294.7772187499995,"end":6297.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6298.00034375,"end":6303.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6303.737843750001,"end":6309.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6310.97721875,"end":6311.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6312.95159375,"end":6314.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6315.06096875,"end":6315.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6316.05659375,"end":6317.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6318.419093750001,"end":6321.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6323.329718750001,"end":6325.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6326.654093749999,"end":6327.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6329.59034375,"end":6330.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6330.974093750001,"end":6332.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6332.83034375,"end":6338.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6340.89659375,"end":6343.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6344.946593750001,"end":6347.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6348.33846875,"end":6349.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6350.7684687500005,"end":6353.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6354.00846875,"end":6355.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6356.40471875,"end":6359.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6360.640343749999,"end":6363.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6363.20534375,"end":6366.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6367.69409375,"end":6369.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6369.95534375,"end":6372.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6372.689093750001,"end":6379.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6380.198468750001,"end":6382.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6382.9490937499995,"end":6386.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6387.134093750001,"end":6392.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6394.204718750001,"end":6402.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6403.9247187500005,"end":6405.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6406.65846875,"end":6412.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6413.7459687499995,"end":6418.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6419.83784375,"end":6424.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6426.25034375,"end":6426.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6427.27971875,"end":6428.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6432.882218750001,"end":6435.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6435.63284375,"end":6438.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6438.872843749999,"end":6442.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6441.53909375,"end":6441.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6445.0322187500005,"end":6446.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6449.77409375,"end":6455.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6457.13159375,"end":6462.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6462.90284375,"end":6463.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6464.185343749999,"end":6465.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6465.38346875,"end":6466.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6466.9022187499995,"end":6470.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6471.9647187499995,"end":6474.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6475.069718750001,"end":6476.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6476.36909375,"end":6478.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6479.92971875,"end":6480.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6481.769093750001,"end":6483.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6483.743468750001,"end":6488.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6490.88159375,"end":6492.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6493.159718750001,"end":6503.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6504.76971875,"end":6516.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6517.679093750001,"end":6523.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6525.89721875,"end":6529.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6534.840968750001,"end":6540.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6540.81471875,"end":6550.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6550.46721875,"end":6553.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6554.55096875,"end":6627.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6628.04159375,"end":6628.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6628.93596875,"end":6640.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6640.5965937500005,"end":6649.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6650.18159375,"end":6695.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6695.997218750001,"end":6719.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6719.757218750001,"end":6723.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6723.790343750001,"end":6724.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6725.22471875,"end":6751.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6754.114718750001,"end":6755.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6756.089093750001,"end":6758.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6759.362843750001,"end":6760.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6764.897843750001,"end":6789.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6789.974093750001,"end":6795.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6796.116593750001,"end":6800.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6800.55471875,"end":6801.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6802.495343750001,"end":6820.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6820.669718749999,"end":6827.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6827.2509687500005,"end":6834.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6835.249718749999,"end":6870.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6870.34971875,"end":6877.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6878.36534375,"end":6909.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6910.529093749999,"end":6942.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6942.372218750001,"end":6948.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6948.66659375,"end":6957.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6958.42034375,"end":6967.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6967.262843750001,"end":6975.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6975.835343750001,"end":6985.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6986.31471875,"end":6986.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6986.41596875,"end":6994.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6995.342843750001,"end":7006.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7006.581593750001,"end":7031.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7031.944718750001,"end":7047.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7048.026593750001,"end":7055.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7056.042218750001,"end":7057.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7057.56096875,"end":7063.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7063.78784375,"end":7065.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7066.04909375,"end":7066.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7067.061593750001,"end":7087.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7087.5478437500005,"end":7140.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7141.109093750001,"end":7143.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7143.75846875,"end":7164.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7164.86909375,"end":7178.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7179.85409375,"end":7192.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7192.66221875,"end":7194.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7194.687218750001,"end":7223.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7224.269093750001,"end":7234.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7234.24221875,"end":7291.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7292.477843750001,"end":7293.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7293.608468750001,"end":7321.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7321.9247187500005,"end":7329.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7329.974093750001,"end":7332.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7332.30284375,"end":7342.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7343.54159375,"end":7359.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7359.96096875,"end":7376.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7378.28721875,"end":7383.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7384.37909375,"end":7384.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7398.35159375,"end":7398.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7399.00971875,"end":7434.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7434.61596875,"end":7452.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7453.161593750001,"end":7454.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7454.5115937499995,"end":7467.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7467.11721875,"end":7514.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7514.991593750001,"end":7645.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7646.329718750001,"end":7653.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7654.210343750001,"end":7661.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7662.3778437500005,"end":7682.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7683.555968750001,"end":7686.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7686.880343750001,"end":7713.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7714.42034375,"end":7740.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7740.86346875,"end":7806.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7806.91221875,"end":7824.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7824.411593750001,"end":7853.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7853.335343750001,"end":7853.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7853.95971875,"end":7895.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7896.48471875,"end":7945.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7946.35034375,"end":7959.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7959.34409375,"end":7985.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7986.782843750001,"end":7987.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7987.440968750001,"end":8007.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8009.83409375,"end":8010.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8012.2303437499995,"end":8014.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8017.41096875,"end":8028.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8029.42596875,"end":8034.404093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8034.741593750001,"end":8045.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8046.38534375,"end":8048.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8049.743468750001,"end":8050.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8051.41409375,"end":8065.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8065.589093750001,"end":8078.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8079.544718750001,"end":8097.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8098.42784375,"end":8103.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8103.67596875,"end":8111.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8112.2822187500005,"end":8113.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8115.269093750001,"end":8120.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8121.360968750001,"end":8141.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8141.30721875,"end":8150.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8150.97659375,"end":8186.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8187.139718750001,"end":8188.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8188.810343750001,"end":8193.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8193.94034375,"end":8225.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8225.699093750001,"end":8226.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8226.863468750002,"end":8278.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8278.56846875,"end":8280.930968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8281.94346875,"end":8289.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8290.02659375,"end":8296.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8296.995968750001,"end":8337.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8339.52096875,"end":8343.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8682.89346875,"end":8687.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8691.972218750001,"end":8695.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8698.50284375,"end":8711.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8716.035968750002,"end":8722.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8723.42721875,"end":8727.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8727.747218750003,"end":8738.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8741.449718750002,"end":8756.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8756.97471875,"end":8758.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8758.915343750003,"end":8765.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8768.280968750001,"end":8768.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8769.10784375,"end":8769.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8771.38596875,"end":8802.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8777.69721875,"end":8777.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8777.76471875,"end":8777.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8777.781593750002,"end":8777.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8777.84909375,"end":8777.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8777.91659375,"end":8778.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8803.58346875,"end":8848.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8850.15846875,"end":8867.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8867.691593750002,"end":8880.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8880.73596875,"end":8898.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8885.882843750001,"end":8886.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8898.606593750003,"end":8949.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8950.581593750001,"end":8970.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8971.48971875,"end":8987.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8988.21284375,"end":8994.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8994.69284375,"end":8997.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8998.13534375,"end":9000.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9000.700343750003,"end":9011.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9011.652218750001,"end":9026.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9026.55284375,"end":9045.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9046.49909375,"end":9057.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9057.77159375,"end":9073.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9073.634093750003,"end":9084.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9084.653468750003,"end":9113.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9113.391593750002,"end":9140.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9140.796593750001,"end":9154.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9155.089718750001,"end":9185.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9186.08909375,"end":9203.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9203.74034375,"end":9226.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9227.14596875,"end":9232.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9232.731593750003,"end":9243.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9244.40909375,"end":9255.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9255.985343750002,"end":9268.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9271.44284375,"end":9275.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9276.82596875,"end":9288.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9289.887218750002,"end":9296.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9290.089718750001,"end":9290.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9296.77221875,"end":9304.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9304.112843750001,"end":9304.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9304.382843750001,"end":9304.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9305.20971875,"end":9305.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9305.47971875,"end":9305.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9305.83409375,"end":9306.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9306.37409375,"end":9306.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9306.62721875,"end":9306.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9306.79596875,"end":9307.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9307.015343750001,"end":9307.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9309.445343750001,"end":9317.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9318.034718750001,"end":9318.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9320.160968750002,"end":9322.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9328.21034375,"end":9332.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9331.433468750001,"end":9338.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9333.69471875,"end":9335.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9339.516593750002,"end":9343.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9339.53346875,"end":9339.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9339.78659375,"end":9339.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9339.870968750001,"end":9339.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9339.972218750001,"end":9340.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9341.102843750003,"end":9341.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9341.575343750003,"end":9341.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9343.70159375,"end":9346.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9344.258468750002,"end":9344.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9344.64659375,"end":9344.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9344.69721875,"end":9344.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9345.65909375,"end":9345.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9345.96284375,"end":9346.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9346.671593750001,"end":9349.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9348.747218750003,"end":9349.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9350.62034375,"end":9350.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9351.227843750003,"end":9357.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9357.707843750002,"end":9363.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9363.917843750001,"end":9366.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9366.90471875,"end":9407.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9407.77596875,"end":9468.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9468.82971875,"end":9496.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9496.774718750003,"end":9497.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9498.614093750002,"end":9498.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9501.43221875,"end":9501.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9503.457218750002,"end":9503.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9504.874718750001,"end":9520.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9520.855343750001,"end":9565.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9566.434718750003,"end":9651.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9654.45471875,"end":9654.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9656.175968750002,"end":9658.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9660.20909375,"end":9684.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9685.20096875,"end":9698.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9698.66721875,"end":9699.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9701.434718750003,"end":9702.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9703.206593750001,"end":9703.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9703.88159375,"end":9705.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9708.269093750001,"end":9709.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9710.665343750003,"end":9712.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9712.99409375,"end":9714.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9715.10346875,"end":9724.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9725.29596875,"end":9739.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9742.761593750001,"end":9743.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9743.11596875,"end":9743.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9745.360343750002,"end":9750.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9751.28346875,"end":9754.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9754.540343750003,"end":9762.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9762.72471875,"end":9780.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9783.261593750001,"end":9783.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9787.61534375,"end":9787.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9788.425343750001,"end":9811.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9812.57346875,"end":9824.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9824.89221875,"end":9827.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9828.43596875,"end":9834.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9835.101593750001,"end":9852.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9853.394093750001,"end":9862.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9862.91159375,"end":9889.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9890.92409375,"end":9934.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9935.49096875,"end":9936.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9938.157218750002,"end":9946.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9946.88159375,"end":9951.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9952.079093750002,"end":9990.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9991.06034375,"end":10025.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10026.98721875,"end":10044.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10045.684718750003,"end":10058.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10059.269093750001,"end":10070.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10071.570968750002,"end":10085.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10085.99909375,"end":10096.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10097.32221875,"end":10098.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10098.95909375,"end":10100.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10101.23721875,"end":10105.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10106.907218750002,"end":10109.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10109.421593750001,"end":10130.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10130.97096875,"end":10132.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10133.164718750002,"end":10145.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10141.73721875,"end":10141.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10145.297843750002,"end":10148.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10148.402843750002,"end":10156.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10163.97846875,"end":10189.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10190.016593750002,"end":10190.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10190.15159375,"end":10194.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10195.112843750001,"end":10201.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10202.01471875,"end":10212.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10212.527843750002,"end":10217.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10217.961593750002,"end":10240.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10240.523468750001,"end":10244.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10245.062843750002,"end":10254.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10255.086593750002,"end":10271.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10271.792843750001,"end":10274.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10274.56034375,"end":10286.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10286.74409375,"end":10289.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10289.933468750001,"end":10292.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10292.903468750003,"end":10330.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10331.42909375,"end":10405.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10405.83096875,"end":10439.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10439.445968750002,"end":10447.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10447.680968750003,"end":10452.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10452.456593750001,"end":10458.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10458.93659375,"end":10512.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10512.97034375,"end":10513.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10514.286593750003,"end":10516.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10516.41284375,"end":10520.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10520.46284375,"end":10523.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10523.68596875,"end":10528.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10528.394093750001,"end":10534.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10534.840343750002,"end":10538.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10538.417843750001,"end":10547.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10547.51346875,"end":10550.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10550.719718750002,"end":10553.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10554.027218750001,"end":10559.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10559.39346875,"end":10561.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10561.266593750002,"end":10573.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10574.395343750002,"end":10590.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10590.578468750002,"end":10592.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10592.839718750001,"end":10595.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10596.40034375,"end":10624.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10624.34534375,"end":10628.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10628.47971875,"end":10634.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10635.246593750002,"end":10640.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10640.96721875,"end":10689.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10689.820343750001,"end":10699.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10699.77659375,"end":10735.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10736.395343750002,"end":10747.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10747.245968750001,"end":10756.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10756.56096875,"end":10791.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10757.016593750002,"end":10757.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10791.711593750002,"end":10815.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10817.88471875,"end":10819.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10821.85034375,"end":10827.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10842.960968750001,"end":10847.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10847.78721875,"end":10910.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10911.945968750002,"end":11031.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11032.88909375,"end":11121.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11122.44471875,"end":11171.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11172.68159375,"end":11203.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11203.613468750002,"end":11238.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11239.28721875,"end":11242.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11243.590343750002,"end":11244.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11245.24409375,"end":11248.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11249.496593750002,"end":11256.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11257.42784375,"end":11259.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11260.414718750002,"end":11269.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11269.949093750001,"end":11273.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11273.45909375,"end":11277.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11278.21784375,"end":11302.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11304.52596875,"end":11314.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11314.617218750001,"end":11317.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11317.789718750002,"end":11327.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11327.695343750001,"end":11358.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11358.863468750002,"end":11364.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11365.613468750002,"end":11395.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11396.680343750002,"end":11403.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11403.93659375,"end":11406.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11407.19346875,"end":11409.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11409.57284375,"end":11424.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11424.60846875,"end":11425.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11426.093468750001,"end":11427.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11428.30409375,"end":11428.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11429.77221875,"end":11474.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11477.309093750002,"end":11477.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11477.899718750003,"end":11481.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11489.695343750001,"end":11495.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11495.550968750002,"end":11497.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11498.571593750003,"end":11550.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11550.074093750001,"end":11553.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11555.102843750003,"end":11555.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11556.992843750002,"end":11558.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11559.574718750002,"end":11586.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11587.519718750002,"end":11629.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11630.669093750003,"end":11645.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11646.51471875,"end":11668.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11670.696593750003,"end":11693.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11694.23721875,"end":11745.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11745.317843750003,"end":11793.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11794.59284375,"end":11913.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11913.71346875,"end":11919.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11920.328468750002,"end":11924.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11925.019718750002,"end":11942.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11943.210968750001,"end":11944.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11944.56096875,"end":11945.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11948.172218750002,"end":11949.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11952.84659375,"end":11954.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11954.348468750002,"end":11956.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11956.62659375,"end":11957.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11958.16221875,"end":11958.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11959.86659375,"end":11982.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11983.22159375,"end":11984.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11985.094718750002,"end":11987.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11988.503468750001,"end":12002.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12002.50971875,"end":12025.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12025.35846875,"end":12037.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12037.289093750001,"end":12082.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12083.20596875,"end":12106.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12111.67409375,"end":12123.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12123.97596875,"end":12176.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12176.355968750002,"end":12186.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12186.700343750003,"end":12191.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12193.88909375,"end":12194.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12195.137843750003,"end":12197.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12197.652218750001,"end":12198.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12198.52971875,"end":12268.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12268.628468750001,"end":12301.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12302.243468750003,"end":12315.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12316.097843750002,"end":12320.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12321.312218750001,"end":12391.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12332.550968750002,"end":12332.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12337.22534375,"end":12339.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12339.18284375,"end":12339.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12392.54159375,"end":12399.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12411.593468750001,"end":12431.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12431.590343750002,"end":12436.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12437.327843750001,"end":12440.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12442.91346875,"end":12453.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12455.40096875,"end":12456.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12458.489093750002,"end":12460.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12461.50971875,"end":12463.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12463.821593750003,"end":12463.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12464.85096875,"end":12475.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12475.38096875,"end":12481.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12481.101593750001,"end":12482.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12483.98721875,"end":12486.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12486.94034375,"end":12487.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12488.425343750001,"end":12495.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12496.508468750002,"end":12499.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12500.71034375,"end":12504.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12504.81096875,"end":12506.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12506.363468750002,"end":12511.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12511.35846875,"end":12512.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12512.87721875,"end":12516.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12518.98596875,"end":12526.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12527.84534375,"end":12532.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12532.50284375,"end":12536.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12536.687843750002,"end":12538.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12539.52284375,"end":12540.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12541.24409375,"end":12544.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12545.36159375,"end":12549.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12549.833468750003,"end":12552.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12552.75284375,"end":12556.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12556.90409375,"end":12558.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12559.519718750002,"end":12559.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12560.44784375,"end":12560.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12561.51096875,"end":12564.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12564.83534375,"end":12565.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12565.645343750002,"end":12566.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12567.062843750002,"end":12568.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12568.649093750002,"end":12572.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12574.555343750002,"end":12582.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12583.161593750003,"end":12584.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12584.34284375,"end":12592.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12592.56096875,"end":12593.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12594.09659375,"end":12604.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12605.504093750002,"end":12625.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12627.05346875,"end":12630.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12631.238468750002,"end":12632.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12633.63471875,"end":12636.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12636.63846875,"end":12641.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12641.633468750002,"end":12642.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12643.320968750002,"end":12645.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12646.51034375,"end":12647.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12648.14721875,"end":12649.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12650.172218750002,"end":12651.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12651.505343750003,"end":12653.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12653.88471875,"end":12655.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12655.57221875,"end":12656.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12657.47909375,"end":12658.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12658.879718750002,"end":12665.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12665.730968750002,"end":12668.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12668.515343750001,"end":12670.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12671.417843750001,"end":12672.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12672.46409375,"end":12675.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12675.687218750001,"end":12677.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12677.89784375,"end":12685.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12686.976593750001,"end":12692.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12694.266593750002,"end":12698.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12698.97471875,"end":12700.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12700.81409375,"end":12702.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12703.109093750001,"end":12705.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12705.20159375,"end":12713.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12715.02284375,"end":12718.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12720.23721875,"end":12721.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12721.77284375,"end":12722.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12723.409718750001,"end":12724.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12727.83096875,"end":12728.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12729.315968750001,"end":12730.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12730.902218750001,"end":12732.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12734.20971875,"end":12740.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12740.84159375,"end":12745.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12746.258468750002,"end":12750.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12751.18596875,"end":12752.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12752.87346875,"end":12756.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12757.41284375,"end":12759.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12760.062218750001,"end":12761.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12761.496593750002,"end":12767.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12769.96784375,"end":12775.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12776.61659375,"end":12779.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12779.24909375,"end":12780.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12781.071593750003,"end":12782.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12782.57346875,"end":12785.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12786.84284375,"end":12789.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12790.082843750002,"end":12791.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12791.58471875,"end":12793.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12794.723468750002,"end":12799.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12799.785968750002,"end":12802.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12804.12284375,"end":12806.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12806.637218750002,"end":12808.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12808.915343750003,"end":12811.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12811.851593750001,"end":12814.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12817.09971875,"end":12824.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12826.094093750002,"end":12827.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12827.96721875,"end":12829.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12830.684093750002,"end":12831.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12832.40534375,"end":12834.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12835.274093750002,"end":12837.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12838.328468750002,"end":12840.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12841.14659375,"end":12842.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12843.222218750001,"end":12843.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12844.36971875,"end":12845.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12846.563468750002,"end":12848.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12849.22971875,"end":12855.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12857.22846875,"end":12857.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12858.595343750003,"end":12861.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12862.274093750002,"end":12862.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12863.77596875,"end":12865.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12865.78409375,"end":12866.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12867.269093750001,"end":12868.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12871.31909375,"end":12874.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12874.69409375,"end":12876.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12877.343468750001,"end":12882.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12884.835968750001,"end":12892.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12893.273468750001,"end":12897.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12897.644093750001,"end":12900.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12901.49159375,"end":12903.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12904.731593750003,"end":12911.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12912.527843750002,"end":12917.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12918.484718750002,"end":12921.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12923.42909375,"end":12925.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12925.285343750002,"end":12934.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12935.64659375,"end":12936.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12937.199093750001,"end":12942.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12942.86909375,"end":12945.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12946.24409375,"end":12946.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12946.56471875,"end":12947.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12948.437843750002,"end":12952.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12952.96034375,"end":12964.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12964.55346875,"end":12968.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12969.531593750002,"end":12975.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12976.720343750003,"end":12980.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12982.356593750003,"end":12985.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12985.79909375,"end":12989.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12990.034718750001,"end":12990.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12992.059718750003,"end":12995.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12996.49784375,"end":13001.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13001.864093750002,"end":13008.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13011.06096875,"end":13013.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13013.474093750003,"end":13017.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13018.38471875,"end":13020.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13022.316593750002,"end":13029.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13029.235343750002,"end":13030.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13031.15909375,"end":13032.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13032.930968750003,"end":13036.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13037.74034375,"end":13042.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13042.718468750001,"end":13044.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13045.907843750003,"end":13048.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13049.45159375,"end":13057.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13057.652843750002,"end":13058.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13058.597843750002,"end":13059.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13059.660968750002,"end":13062.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13062.715343750002,"end":13064.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13065.465968750003,"end":13079.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13079.40471875,"end":13087.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13087.57221875,"end":13097.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13098.203468750002,"end":13101.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13101.86534375,"end":13106.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13106.18534375,"end":13109.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13110.72471875,"end":13111.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13112.63159375,"end":13113.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13113.441593750002,"end":13116.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13116.90096875,"end":13117.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13118.402843750002,"end":13119.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13119.90471875,"end":13121.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13122.317843750003,"end":13123.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13124.22471875,"end":13127.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13127.65034375,"end":13128.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13129.23659375,"end":13130.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13130.87346875,"end":13133.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13133.691593750002,"end":13135.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13136.35784375,"end":13138.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13140.171593750001,"end":13143.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13144.440968750001,"end":13146.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13146.95534375,"end":13157.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13157.77221875,"end":13161.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13161.974093750003,"end":13164.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13166.766593750002,"end":13170.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13170.715343750002,"end":13172.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13174.10721875,"end":13179.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13181.582843750002,"end":13183.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13184.535968750002,"end":13188.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13189.058468750001,"end":13193.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13193.648468750001,"end":13194.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13195.53846875,"end":13196.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13197.074093750001,"end":13199.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13200.33096875,"end":13201.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13203.351593750001,"end":13208.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13208.110343750002,"end":13219.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13219.93971875,"end":13221.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13221.964718750001,"end":13224.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13224.917843750001,"end":13229.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13230.21659375,"end":13233.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13234.249718750001,"end":13235.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13236.88221875,"end":13244.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13259.309093750002,"end":13269.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13269.332843750002,"end":13271.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13272.015968750002,"end":13273.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13273.804718750001,"end":13286.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13286.69721875,"end":13288.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13290.13971875,"end":13293.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13293.71721875,"end":13294.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13295.60721875,"end":13298.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13299.57284375,"end":13319.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13319.704718750003,"end":13320.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13321.24034375,"end":13327.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13328.46284375,"end":13330.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13331.06159375,"end":13334.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13335.449093750001,"end":13337.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13338.824093750001,"end":13342.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13343.312843750002,"end":13348.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13349.08409375,"end":13351.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13352.50971875,"end":13354.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13355.31096875,"end":13357.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13358.43284375,"end":13364.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13365.267218750003,"end":13368.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13369.65471875,"end":13373.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13374.39659375,"end":13375.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13375.83096875,"end":13380.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13380.977843750003,"end":13384.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13384.757843750001,"end":13389.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13389.786593750003,"end":13391.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13391.457218750002,"end":13405.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13406.05409375,"end":13408.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13409.42909375,"end":13420.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13421.157218750002,"end":13424.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13425.325343750003,"end":13426.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13427.55284375,"end":13429.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13430.421593750001,"end":13434.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13435.332218750002,"end":13436.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13438.285343750002,"end":13439.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13440.141593750002,"end":13441.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13441.356593750003,"end":13446.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13447.38096875,"end":13459.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13460.712218750003,"end":13461.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13462.31534375,"end":13470.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13470.246593750002,"end":13471.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13472.32221875,"end":13478.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13479.12284375,"end":13479.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13480.65846875,"end":13482.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13483.105343750001,"end":13483.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13484.08409375,"end":13484.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13485.88971875,"end":13488.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13489.484093750001,"end":13491.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13492.386593750001,"end":13501.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13503.304718750001,"end":13508.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13508.50221875,"end":13509.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13509.582218750002,"end":13518.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13518.84659375,"end":13528.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13529.039093750001,"end":13531.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13532.464718750001,"end":13533.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13535.19846875,"end":13540.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13541.391593750002,"end":13543.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13544.58096875,"end":13546.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13549.22159375,"end":13549.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13550.554718750001,"end":13551.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13552.410968750002,"end":13553.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13554.317843750003,"end":13557.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13557.827843750001,"end":13561.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13562.805968750003,"end":13567.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13568.172218750002,"end":13569.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13570.31534375,"end":13573.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13575.22596875,"end":13576.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13577.26784375,"end":13579.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13579.343468750001,"end":13580.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13581.824093750001,"end":13583.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13584.405968750001,"end":13585.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13587.224093750003,"end":13589.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13590.46409375,"end":13594.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13595.610968750003,"end":13597.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13597.534718750001,"end":13603.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13603.84596875,"end":13609.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13609.87034375,"end":13610.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13610.798468750003,"end":13624.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13625.26034375,"end":13629.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13630.727843750003,"end":13633.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13634.37284375,"end":13640.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13641.61221875,"end":13643.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13644.19409375,"end":13650.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13651.281593750002,"end":13655.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13656.816593750002,"end":13657.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13659.195968750002,"end":13660.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13660.984718750002,"end":13665.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13666.33409375,"end":13667.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13667.76846875,"end":13670.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13671.902843750002,"end":13678.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13679.344718750002,"end":13680.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13681.31909375,"end":13682.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13682.669093750003,"end":13685.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13685.68971875,"end":13686.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13687.883468750002,"end":13691.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13691.798468750003,"end":13695.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13695.96659375,"end":13701.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13701.754718750002,"end":13705.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13705.804718750001,"end":13708.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13709.95596875,"end":13714.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13715.423468750003,"end":13717.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13717.92096875,"end":13720.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13721.211593750002,"end":13728.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13730.020343750002,"end":13731.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13732.922843750002,"end":13734.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13735.302218750003,"end":13736.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13736.88846875,"end":13738.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13738.37346875,"end":13739.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13739.942843750003,"end":13742.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13742.74409375,"end":13744.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13746.49034375,"end":13750.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13750.65846875,"end":13758.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13759.14659375,"end":13760.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13760.90159375,"end":13771.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13772.157218750002,"end":13776.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13776.831593750001,"end":13784.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13784.98221875,"end":13794.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13795.00596875,"end":13795.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13796.44034375,"end":13801.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13801.637843750003,"end":13808.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13808.640968750002,"end":13809.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13809.41721875,"end":13811.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13812.690968750001,"end":13814.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13815.69471875,"end":13822.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13823.457218750002,"end":13826.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13826.562218750001,"end":13830.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13830.71346875,"end":13837.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13837.581593750001,"end":13838.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13839.184718750003,"end":13847.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13849.292843750001,"end":13860.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13861.004093750002,"end":13865.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13866.10034375,"end":13874.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13874.976593750001,"end":13879.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13879.80284375,"end":13881.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13882.114718750003,"end":13882.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13882.958468750003,"end":13884.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13885.017218750003,"end":13885.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13886.65409375,"end":13887.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13895.024093750002,"end":13899.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13900.980968750002,"end":13915.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13916.168468750002,"end":13918.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13919.003468750001,"end":13945.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13945.750343750002,"end":13948.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13948.349093750003,"end":13950.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13951.673468750003,"end":13983.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13983.870968750001,"end":13991.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13992.105968750002,"end":13993.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13994.265968750002,"end":13996.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13996.594718750002,"end":13998.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13999.446593750003,"end":14007.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14007.32721875,"end":14011.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14012.01846875,"end":14012.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14012.946593750003,"end":14014.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14016.000968750002,"end":14027.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14027.712218750003,"end":14030.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14030.648468750001,"end":14031.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14031.72846875,"end":14035.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14035.94721875,"end":14039.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14040.081593750001,"end":14042.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14043.000968750002,"end":14046.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14046.91596875,"end":14048.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14048.333468750003,"end":14049.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14049.582218750002,"end":14053.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14053.41284375,"end":14055.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14056.028468750003,"end":14058.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14058.812843750002,"end":14060.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14060.939093750003,"end":14063.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14064.567218750002,"end":14073.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14073.831593750001,"end":14080.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14081.492843750002,"end":14083.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14083.58534375,"end":14088.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14089.086593750002,"end":14092.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14093.575343750003,"end":14094.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14094.689093750003,"end":14096.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14096.460968750001,"end":14097.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14098.266593750002,"end":14105.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14105.20221875,"end":14108.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14108.391593750002,"end":14109.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14109.387218750002,"end":14110.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14110.484093750001,"end":14128.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14129.62034375,"end":14134.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14134.547843750002,"end":14136.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14137.028468750003,"end":14140.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14141.36534375,"end":14145.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14145.077843750001,"end":14149.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14150.190968750001,"end":14152.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14152.92471875,"end":14164.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14166.492218750001,"end":14170.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14171.183468750001,"end":14173.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14173.613468750002,"end":14180.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14180.54909375,"end":14182.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14183.890343750001,"end":14187.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14195.550968750002,"end":14202.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14202.70596875,"end":14208.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14209.894718750002,"end":14223.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14223.79971875,"end":14225.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14226.01034375,"end":14228.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14228.69346875,"end":14232.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14232.54096875,"end":14233.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14233.469093750002,"end":14247.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14248.454093750002,"end":14249.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14249.399093750002,"end":14251.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14252.520968750003,"end":14257.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14257.566593750002,"end":14259.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14260.35096875,"end":14268.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14268.501593750003,"end":14272.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14273.04096875,"end":14276.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14277.25971875,"end":14286.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14287.01346875,"end":14289.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14290.08471875,"end":14300.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14301.542843750001,"end":14302.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14303.297843750002,"end":14305.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14306.06534375,"end":14313.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14314.215968750003,"end":14315.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14316.645968750003,"end":14319.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14320.054718750001,"end":14324.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14324.745968750001,"end":14325.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14326.230968750002,"end":14328.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14328.77909375,"end":14333.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14333.942843750003,"end":14338.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14338.769093750001,"end":14341.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14342.363468750002,"end":14343.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14343.780968750001,"end":14345.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14346.649718750003,"end":14347.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14348.10096875,"end":14354.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14354.817218750002,"end":14363.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14363.997218750003,"end":14367.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14367.642218750003,"end":14370.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14370.81471875,"end":14371.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14371.92846875,"end":14373.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14374.40909375,"end":14416.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14416.765343750001,"end":14417.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14417.28846875,"end":14419.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14419.887218750002,"end":14420.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14421.38909375,"end":14424.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14424.86534375,"end":14428.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14429.337218750003,"end":14435.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14435.41221875,"end":14441.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14441.43659375,"end":14442.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14443.44471875,"end":14451.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14451.86534375,"end":14455.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14455.76346875,"end":14458.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14458.88534375,"end":14461.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14461.281593750002,"end":14464.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14465.331593750001,"end":14480.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14481.329093750002,"end":14486.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14487.032843750003,"end":14499.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14500.43159375,"end":14506.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14507.468468750001,"end":14522.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14523.17909375,"end":14525.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14525.625968750002,"end":14526.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14526.824093750001,"end":14527.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14528.039093750001,"end":14529.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14529.422843750002,"end":14531.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14531.329718750003,"end":14533.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14533.55721875,"end":14547.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14548.086593750002,"end":14549.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14550.16221875,"end":14552.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14553.28409375,"end":14560.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14560.844093750002,"end":14566.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14568.99471875,"end":14632.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14633.71034375,"end":14649.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14650.821593750003,"end":14677.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14677.450343750003,"end":14694.86534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1388.842,"end":1415.531,"text":"委員們還有各位專家學者以及在場的官員們大家早安我們現在就進行開會今天是舉行公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例部分條文的修正草案公聽會首先我先介紹現在出席的專家學者按照簽到的順序先介紹第一位是孫鳳群理事長"},{"start":1420.16,"end":1448.897,"text":"第二位是台湾青年世代共好协会的张玉萌理事长第三位是全国教育产业总工会的理事长柯志轩理事柯志轩理事第四位是全国教师会的文宣部的罗德水主任第五位是东吴大学社会学系叶崇洋教授"},{"start":1453.325,"end":1475.312,"text":"第六位是台北市學校教育產業工會李惠來理事長第七位是屏東科技大學社會工作系的林弘洋教授第八位是黃仙香理事長全國代理計代課教師產業工會黃理事長"},{"start":1480.609,"end":1500.109,"text":"然後第十位是董保誠董老師動物大學法學院特色教授好那我接下來再介紹道場委員首先先介紹林倩琦委員那接下來是張志倫委員"},{"start":1505.794,"end":1527.72,"text":"好 那麼我們就先再來介紹今天列席的政府機關代表教育部朱俊章常務次長行政院人事行政總處的給予福利處的處長陳樹芝請坐然後權敘部退輔司的司長鄭淑芬"},{"start":1531.157,"end":1537.622,"text":"那其餘列席的機關代表請參閱名單本席就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":1546.274,"end":1561.281,"text":"公聽會討論提綱一鑒於近年物價飛升通膨問題嚴重基層公務員又多陳情反應擔憂未來退休生活無足夠保障並建議應再行檢討現行教育人員退休所得替代率逐年調降之規定"},{"start":1562.041,"end":1587.497,"text":"請就公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條修法之必要性合理性調降時階級財務影響進行說明二依據公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第67條規定現行教職員退休後所領月退休金需待中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負50%才與調整然以當前物價波動情況"},{"start":1588.718,"end":1606.477,"text":"與檢討月退休金調整程序來看四環不計及同時參考國民年金法第五十四條之一及老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條第一項之規定消費者物價指數成長率為零或負數時國民年金和老農津貼不予調整"},{"start":1606.977,"end":1635.345,"text":"原此請就公立學校教職員退休之前輔具條例涉及月退休金調整機制之修法必要性調整條件及幅度等議題進行說明三 二零一八年公教人員年金改革法案對公部門和學校的人力資源結構帶來負面衝擊例如延退老化阻斷新人升遷士氣低落以及人才流失等後遺症請就公教人員月退休金逐年遞減法案對公教人力結構荷蘭材質影響提出說明四"},{"start":1635.845,"end":1659.064,"text":"其他與本修法案相關的議題宣讀完畢好謝謝從今天討論提供裡面可以知道我們這一次召開公聽會最重要的大概就是討論教職人員退輔條例裡面那麼涉及到有關於退休金逐年停扣逐年遞減的這個法案需不需要"},{"start":1659.954,"end":1686.282,"text":"重新再修法那麼以及針對退休金要不試著隨著物價通膨指數而來做一個例行性的檢討這兩個主要的議案來請各位專家學者來發表高見那麼在邀請各位發言之前我先就公聽會的程序進行說明首先會先請專家學者們發言那發言順序就依照簽到"},{"start":1687.902,"end":1711.986,"text":"先後的順序來進行那本院委員會按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場的話那麼本席會穿插兩安排請委員發言原則上就是在兩位學者專家發言之後再穿插一位委員發言但是如果登記發言的委員人數較多的時候呢會在上午10點30分以後登記的委員安排於所有"},{"start":1712.826,"end":1730.521,"text":"學者專家發言完畢之後再按登記的順序發言那麼學者專家以及本院委員如果需要提前發言的話也請先告知主席我們再次狀況來進行調整那原則上每位專家學者的發言是10分鐘然後委員是5分鐘"},{"start":1735.455,"end":1756.454,"text":"好 那麼當然我們最後再請政府機關代表發言那針對學者專家以及委員的意見來加以回應那與會者的話會先請至發言台發言在主席的右手邊為學者專家那麼列席機關代表的發言台那麼左手邊則是為委員的發言台那麼由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的意見"},{"start":1757.054,"end":1778.025,"text":"所以每位學者專家的發言時間是10分鐘本院發言的時間本院委員發言時間是5分鐘好 那麼我們現在就正式開始那麼首先 先請學者專家發言那先請台北市退休教職員權益促進會孫鳳群副理事長來進行發言沒有 不行 不好意思"},{"start":1801.254,"end":1815.484,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座各位先進大家好我想我們一開始就先來講砍年金它是不是屬於正當的一個改革我們就從"},{"start":1817.245,"end":1834.372,"text":"公務人員的退府條例第八條來看這一條就明擺顯示說如基金不足支付的時候應由基金檢討調整繳費費率或由政府撥款補助並由政府負最後支付責任那在年改的時候那個軍公教已經配合就是調整繳費費率由這個繳費12%調整為15%未來甚至可能到18%"},{"start":1839.534,"end":1844.821,"text":"可是呢這個員工多角少女每年已經挹注了636億每年平均636億可是就了財務缺口占65%責任的政府雇主卻是這個撥補一毛不拔這樣公平嗎而且從這一條法令可以看得出來當基金財務出問題的時候"},{"start":1857.797,"end":1861.838,"text":"這個解決方法就是只有這兩條所以我聽看理由第一點就是砍年金本來就是屬於違法改革因為通膨年年有退休金只能多不能少所以年改前的法規你找不到任何一條是允許可以用砍年金的方式來進行改革"},{"start":1875.563,"end":1886.658,"text":"像國民黨就比較有價值他們在民國88年跟99年公保跟私銷退股基金有破產風險的時候他們都是採用逐額撥補的方式逐額撥補的方式來處理舊的財務缺口"},{"start":1891.24,"end":1895.224,"text":"然後還有第二個理由就是這個砍年金是不可能徹底解決破產問題的你只有依法諸何般不會像台灣五十一樣賺7%才是破產的一個資本的方法因為107年已經驗證了就是用砍年金的方式134年照樣會破產"},{"start":1912.182,"end":1915.225,"text":"所以政府講的是這個說什麼停砍年金會提早這個再提早4年破產他沒有講的是即使不停砍也照樣會破產所以證實這根本就是砍年金根本就是超短線沒有用的改革那相對的政府沒有撥補績效不好才是基金破產的主因也是對不起年輕人的元兇"},{"start":1932.819,"end":1944.604,"text":"那這個用撥補來解決這也不是我說的這個是政府自己出的精算報告就明擺了這個寫出每年對公務人員專案撥補新台幣428億元則未來50年基金不會用慶未來50年基金不會破產不會用慶就是不會破產那麼教師是390億元所以足額撥補或是績效好才是不破產的真正的解方"},{"start":1959.03,"end":1965.535,"text":"然後當然我們更希望就是說如果能夠像經算報告講的一樣就是說這個基金績效夠好的話就好像經算報告顯示的就公務人員跟教師就賺7%左右的話那麼這個基金自己就會轉"},{"start":1974.622,"end":1977.964,"text":"自己就會賺到前面所講的那七八百億元所以就是說甚至政府也不用撥補了那當然也不會破產不過因為政府就是又搞出了一個另立新基金的洞"},{"start":1989.79,"end":2005.346,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠初期先向張智委員幫我們提出的幫我們提案的就是增訂中央政府每年應編列不低於各級政府所節省退府經費之兩倍數而挹注退府基金也就是說我們每年被砍的400多億來挹注退府基金"},{"start":2011.132,"end":2012.613,"text":"那相對的我們是繳35%政府提繳65%是相當於我們的兩倍所以它相對撥補我們預註金額的兩倍這也是合理的事情而且你現在不逐年撥補分期撥補300多億的話你等到破產以後再來撥補"},{"start":2033.667,"end":2043.52,"text":"就要撥補800多億我之前算過就是說公務人員跟教師你如果現在就開始撥補的話是可以幫這個國家省各一兆總共可以省兩兆所以越早撥補越省錢"},{"start":2049.104,"end":2073.418,"text":"然後我的這個聽感的第三個理由就是之前這個政府一直抹黑說這個救治還有18%是害基金破產這根本就是刺激大變局我們從這個退休法第六條最後兩句就可以看到退府新制實施後的年資才能夠由這個退府基金支付也就是說舉例今天一個83年退休的老師他根本沒有領到退府基金半毛錢"},{"start":2074.278,"end":2079.459,"text":"沒有領到退伏基金半毛錢可是它卻因此被砍了2萬5到3萬你說這有天理嗎另外18%也是必須要有救治的年資才能夠換算的它也沒有領到退伏基金半毛錢而且從另外一個角度可以看到就是說18%就公保優存它是不可能領到第二層退伏基金的錢因為它跟勞保一樣都是屬於第一層的社會保險"},{"start":2101.184,"end":2104.665,"text":"那它就像勞保不可能領到第二層的勞退的錢是一樣的那麼第一層的公保優存俗稱的18%不可能領到第二層退伏基金的錢那也就是說政府根本就是砍錯了亂砍一通那還不想著要彌補修正那就讓這些無辜老人被砍"},{"start":2119.631,"end":2126.638,"text":"那這個是不是非常的過分然後第四個理由就是我常常不知道這個政府的這個算盤是怎麼打的就是說你讓這個資深老師因為退休金在太低不敢退休那這個人事支出根本就會更多的"},{"start":2135.307,"end":2141.231,"text":"因為一個資深老師的年薪跟新老師的年薪可以差距70萬也就是說一個資深老師他是可以養兩個新進老師還綽綽有餘所以你這樣根本就是人事支出也沒有比較省錢你卻阻擋了年輕人的工作跟升遷的機會甚至因為退休金沒有保障現在還在鬧教師荒那真的是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":2162.925,"end":2168.692,"text":"然後再來第五點就是我們的一個改革幅度真的已經非常真的是太大了因為你砍到底的話平均會達到29%到38%那即便是我們現在停砍也只救回大概4年只救回這個1.5乘以4差不多6%而已"},{"start":2179.384,"end":2183.165,"text":"那也就是說我們已經被砍了25%以上了被砍了25%以上了那已經被砍了這25%還會繼續挹注去拯救基金所以民進黨的這些什麼委員林萬億他們還在那邊說謊造謠說以後就沒有錢可以拯救基金了這根本就是非常可惡的說法非常可惡的說法"},{"start":2201.63,"end":2203.671,"text":"第六點就是我們都知道這幾年的通膨非常的高如果以通膨3%來講的話23年後我們的購買率會減半也就舉例現在4萬元未來只剩下2萬的價值因為現在每年的平均通膨大概是2.65%"},{"start":2224.839,"end":2246.008,"text":"為什麼講4萬呢因為公務人員的人數最多的見任期等他們被砍到底就只剩下4萬1所以可以預想見的是20幾年後他們的退休金可能如果現在沒有做彌補的話可能只剩下2萬多的價值就在他們預料需求最大的時候"},{"start":2248.37,"end":2264.606,"text":"所以我們也強烈要求第67條應該要修訂為隨物價指數核實調整因為這也是確定給付至退休金的管理通例甚至連大法官都幫我們注意到了他們在4至781到783號都提出"},{"start":2269.19,"end":2289.072,"text":"政府有維持退休金的一個價值不隨時間 不隨通膨而產生實質減少的義務甚至還明示要參照勞保條例依消費者物價指數調整月退休金然後要求主管機關應該要儘速修正可是現在已經拖了5、6年了"},{"start":2291.094,"end":2319.362,"text":"我們就來看一下勞工保險條例是怎麼樣的就是說他們就是當消費指數累計成長率到5%的時候他就依該成長率調整之就依該成長率何時調整而國民年金跟老農津貼它都有相同的規定可是反觀我們公務人員67條就還要考量什麼國家經濟政府財政簡直就是要過五關斬六將非常的不公平"},{"start":2320.662,"end":2323.583,"text":"那我們就來看一下就是說勞保的核實調整長怎麼樣子就是說他們每超過5%你看他們連小數點都調整甚至有一年還調到7.4%然後有時候還調到6.7%總之就是通膨幾%他們就調整幾%通膨幾%就調整幾%"},{"start":2341.031,"end":2364.475,"text":"然後國民年金最近的一次調整就是7.34%所以我們深深覺得我們就像三等公民一樣不如勞保 國保 農保也不如縣子因為相同時期調整的幅度我們就比縣子整整少了5%這個影響所及就以同樣年資30年做例子後退休的人會比前退休的人多領3000塊也就是說你同樣為國家貢獻30年可是你的退休金會少3000塊"},{"start":2369.136,"end":2379.119,"text":"以後隨著現值加薪這個差距還會再擴大形成這個差別待遇所以既然有大法官要求立法院應該即刻修法所以我們就拜託委員們能夠即刻幫我們修這一條法令還有其他職業別都有隨消費者物價指數調整的現行條文作為類推原則的適用"},{"start":2390.083,"end":2412.624,"text":"所以我們67條應該也可以作為這個相類似的法令做這個劣推原則的適用然後第三點就是像我剛舉例的就是說已經形成差別待遇以後還會再擴大這個是違反這個程序法規定就是說非要有正當理由不得為差別待遇的規定所以我們強烈主張就是67條應該遵照大法官指示立刻修法就比照這個勞保"},{"start":2414.225,"end":2437.632,"text":"就是當消費者物價指數達到5%的時候應該立即依照該成長率調整之後應該立即依照該成長率核實調整之後我的報告到此結束 謝謝大家好 謝謝接下來我們就請第二位柯智軒理事全國教育產業總工會柯智軒理事發言好 謝謝"},{"start":2445.427,"end":2470.212,"text":"好 藝作集各位嘉賓大家好那我今天我的主講的主題就是縣子老師不可不知的真相我現在就要來簡潔的說一下政府的失能欺騙跟怠惰我是義務教育階段的縣子教師我同時也是一個強調勞方要團結的公會的理事"},{"start":2476.513,"end":2494.647,"text":"好 那我就直接來說明依據公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第八條規定退撫基金是由教職員跟政府共同來撥繳月退撫基金並由政府來負最後支付保證責任這個法律義務非常清楚"},{"start":2500.233,"end":2525.433,"text":"那按月政府應該要撥繳65%而教職員繳付35%這也非常清楚那政府不思進取然後面對該撥補的65%的責任一拖再拖甚至完全沒有撥補放任救濟金到現在完全沒有撥補每年都以複利的累積速度擴大最後再讓全民為政府這個慣老闆不負責任買單"},{"start":2531.756,"end":2542.514,"text":"這一張圖看得也很清楚這是依照都是依照政府自己的資料退休撫恤之前法的第八次清算報告大家可以看到黃色反黃的部分"},{"start":2543.547,"end":2548.749,"text":"1042億元這是政府應該撥補的那政府從113年到114年應該撥補的1042億元實際撥補是0元113年到114年政府利益新基金實際應該要撥補的是400億元實際撥補是294億元也沒有撥補到位"},{"start":2578.204,"end":2606.402,"text":"那依照第八次跟第九次精算報告來比較的話就如前面我們的專家學者有提到50年不用進不用晚政府每年應該撥補的金額那已經因為沒有實際上撥補從521億元增加到818億元這政府可說是荒唐我認為政府應該立刻依照精算報告完全完整的撥補"},{"start":2611.482,"end":2629.541,"text":"那為什麼身為縣職教師要聲援退休的前輩呢本來也有不少基層老師真的相信年金改革後會健全年金讓以後退休仍然有曙光但是後來發現當初政府要我們共體時間而等國家超增稅收財政大好的時候"},{"start":2630.715,"end":2645.569,"text":"卻沒有在物價節節上漲的現在政府也要拉退休前輩一把的意思我們可以從國家的總預算案這個是行政院主計總署自己的做的這個表格大家可以看到114年3.15兆那105年114年期間超收人民稅收共1兆1912億元好 那我們來算一算"},{"start":2657.543,"end":2685.84,"text":"賴政府繼承中央政府結餘款1兆763億元那預算是近3兆元去年超收5283億稅金政府手上有4兆6046億元居然還放話大喊沒有錢那請問錢在哪裡那更不要說限職教師持續往上調整的提撥費率沒有停止的現象"},{"start":2687.076,"end":2704.614,"text":"那我們身邊的老師在工會裡面我們常常問到其他老師有誰看不出來這就是每年實質的減薪呢何況現在每個月繳的比勞保近五到六倍五到六倍以上的保險及退服基金這本來就是我們勞動的代價本來就是我們的地研的薪資我們的產值"},{"start":2706.994,"end":2730.665,"text":"那我們不禁懷疑到時候會不會再以基金加上破產的理由再以教師領太多教師是米蟲來抹黑教師讓社會以為教師才是浪費稅金的兇手我們嚴正對政府提出質疑因為今日之退休教師就是我們明日限職教師的處境限職教師和退休教師都是牢方我們同樣都被無良的資方虧待"},{"start":2731.937,"end":2745.433,"text":"放眼哪個國家不會感謝勞工為公司奉獻為國家奉獻還帶頭放話退休勞工害得現職勞工權益受損不禁要問請問勞工不是政府心中最柔軟的那一塊嗎"},{"start":2751.286,"end":2774.102,"text":"限職教師正在經歷的是工作環境的劣化我要講一點限職我們現在校園的真實處境要講真話除了政府為年金改惡挑起的世代對立那我們感受到的是另一場刻意要設計教師讓教師不明欲退場就是濫訴不用成本和有罪退訂的校士會議制度這個惡法令很多戒退教師心寒本來想退休"},{"start":2775.305,"end":2792.624,"text":"看到退休差不多等於自尋死路之後於是又咬著牙漆黃的繼續過我們的日子年輕心血也不願進來因為教師坦白說我們感受到的是沒有尊嚴無法安享退休所以教師荒的產生我們為什麼要意外"},{"start":2793.936,"end":2822.743,"text":"那面對今年如此緊急的開學教師荒政府在8月25日的時候新聞發布時聲稱只是職缺刊登數真正的數字是1429位而這1429位教師過四天之後居然就銳減成七分之一的數字原來政府的做法只是把表面缺少老師的數字降低而已面對教師荒胸中其實沒有任何策略就是讓學校老師把課捐回去大家可以看一下"},{"start":2823.701,"end":2852.66,"text":"PPT因為教育部自己說研議採內校內教採樣校內教室跨校教室或退休教室兼課把課兼回去嘛那其實有解決嗎沒有啊好那不但沒有看到錯誤接下來第二步又再度把教育專業判死刑送進墳墓竟然要開放不經過完整私資培育教育的人員送進中小學的校園這種荒唐作為不叫慣老闆嗎"},{"start":2853.683,"end":2882.099,"text":"那到底哪一間公司要招聘助理最後讓助理在公司裡做的是經理和工程師加業務的代表工作那根本就是逢金當馬糧專業踐踏在地上請政府不要為了降低失業率我們懷疑新任政府的民眾把新任政府的民眾送進校園受苦教育是有專業的近來航運產業的員工猝死事件都顯示資方慣性的思維就是減少人事成本榨乾員工為目的"},{"start":2883.482,"end":2900.612,"text":"有聽過民間公司的老闆常用的伎倆就是用磕帶員工來逼員工離職或者是分化員工阻礙員工行使團結跟發展以上手段怎麼看都像是惡老闆合理的懷疑處刑機率最好是不用拿出員工的退休金"},{"start":2902.952,"end":2925.968,"text":"那同學 可以看一下薪資缺乏吸引力 薪資衝突頻繁 勞動條件不佳已經有7.4萬名具有教師證的准教師選擇不投入教職了這個情勢其實相當嚴峻啊好 那政府的撥補 在勞保勞退部分就是改革為了我們大公教退休金就不是呢"},{"start":2927.498,"end":2951.82,"text":"除了政府編預算撥補退府基金的水池另外退府基金經營績效獲利的多寡也影響基金基營績效基金池水的來源基金的來源但政府自己管基金從85年到現在經營績效有達到先進國家的水準嗎退府基金除了政府預算的撥補更重要的是經營投資績效政府做好了嗎"},{"start":2953.77,"end":2972.947,"text":"現在基金的績效有起死回生的現象基金績效好政府的撥補就可以少這是很簡單的道理啊不要再把基金交給造成持續虧損的單位操作這也是教師團體的良心建言但我們的政府就是一直聽不進去我們的會府基金依照政府之前的做法已經調整了費率"},{"start":2973.968,"end":2983.981,"text":"但現在我們卻發現就像搭飛機一樣買了商務艙的票價最後卻只能做經濟艙買了300萬的保險卻只能理賠100萬政府根本沒有誠信啊"},{"start":2987.572,"end":3010.798,"text":"那本人在此以縣職教三公會成員的身份沉重呼籲除了修正公立學校退休之前撫恤條例月退休金月撫恤金依屬年金的依照消費者物價指數CPI比照勞保國保農保核實調整並立即依法憑精算報告逐年撥補足額進入退撫基金盡好政府的責任政府如果把基金的績效維持在預設好的7%以上當然可以更優化"},{"start":3012.659,"end":3040.549,"text":"積極為員工建立好基金盡好照顧員工的責任不要抹黑軍公教不要搞世代鬥爭依法撥補讓基金缺口不要擴大才是真正把關稅金最後建議政府不要再忙著挑動對立撕裂族群全教材一直都向政府提出把鬥爭的時間和精力用在整合三層年金基礎年金 社會保險年金職業年金的三層年金國民年金提供最基本的保障勞保和公教保提供中層保障而勞隊薪資或公教退服基金提供更上層的補充薪保障"},{"start":3041.389,"end":3061.662,"text":"對台灣而言全教產提出三成年金是很好的方向這三成呢政府應該在政策層面明確各層年金的功能定位在法律上加強協調銜接建立一個永效且永續的退休保障體系謝謝各位好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":3071.888,"end":3090.478,"text":"謝謝我們主席翁昭偉府會同仁還有各位今天與會的夥伴們大家好本席在這邊非常感謝今天參與這個公聽會的學者專家我們來針對公立學校教職員退休撫恤條例的修正方向來進行專業跟實質的一個討論"},{"start":3091.519,"end":3112.634,"text":"本席與本黨眾多的還有眾多黨團的同仁都認為應該停止年金所得替代率的持續削減並建立與物價指數連動的年金調整機制這個是重新校正制度的一個失衡保障退休教職員的老年生活是國家應有的誠信體現"},{"start":3113.795,"end":3132.867,"text":"我國從107年就啟動了年金改革至今6年了但是政府一直強調這個改革是因為要財務永續但實質上卻很不公義的對退休人員造成龐大的衝擊現行的規定所得替代率從109年起就每年下降1.5%10年內已經從最高的75%砍到剩下60%"},{"start":3138.511,"end":3157.986,"text":"最低甚至到30%這是國家自己定下的下修機制也沒有在針對國際經濟情勢的變動作出調整同時107年退休年金跟在職人員薪資調整又脫鉤年金的給付沒有辦法反映經濟的通膨導致退休人員雙重剝奪"},{"start":3159.787,"end":3174.274,"text":"政府主張改革但實際上卻是讓一整個世代在長年信任政府承諾後默默承受物價上漲的苦果物價的變化不抽象是每天餐桌上的飯菜是每個月要繳交的水電費"},{"start":3175.114,"end":3192.378,"text":"是健保自付額的一個看護費行政院主計處自己也公佈高齡家庭的一個消費者物價指數就是認知到高齡者面對實際生活壓力是大於一般家庭的1990年台灣家庭支出結構醫療保險只佔了4.78%到了2024年已經躍升到接近了15%高齡族群所受的衝擊最深"},{"start":3200.76,"end":3213.902,"text":"然而制度卻沒有給予這些退休的公教人員相應的機制來反映生活成本的顯著上升這合理嗎 公平嗎國家符合退休制度所強調的老年生活保障原則嗎"},{"start":3215.492,"end":3227.347,"text":"本席在這邊要好強調我們主張停止替代率每年遞減的副表3條文自113年起不能再使用恢復合理的年金調整機制至少應該要與物價指數同時連動"},{"start":3231.412,"end":3245.047,"text":"並且與現值的軍公教的薪資變動來比較辦理這是根據經濟現狀所做出的制度補正也是對過去改革承諾保障退休生活的檢討與履行"},{"start":3247.557,"end":3263.111,"text":"年金修法的三大目標是第一要阻止文官體系的崩潰第二要爭取公平的待遇第三是要保障退休生活的尊嚴我們要誠實面對一個現象馬政府時期報考公職人員的這個人數高達52萬人現在"},{"start":3267.395,"end":3295.552,"text":"民進黨執政時期只剩下16萬人短短10年內報考人數暴跌超過七成這是大家對制度信心崩解的一個現象年輕人為什麼不願意進入公職因為制度不再值得信任因為國家沒有善待曾經為他服務一輩子的文官與教師如果國家連基本承諾都守不住怎麼吸引優秀的年輕人來投入基層教育行政體系跟公共服務"},{"start":3297.099,"end":3320.78,"text":"政府推動的需要專業文官的支撐過去台灣的整體發展我們都看到公教體系一個協力的成果政府如果不再處理這樣一個議題那麼對於這失信於退休公教人員的制度不僅現有的退休人員生活無以為繼未來大家都不會再投入教職與公教體系"},{"start":3321.701,"end":3346.35,"text":"民進黨政府推動年金改革強調基金永續這個不應該是藉口你的國家信賴保護原則在哪裡怎麼可以說變就變單向的變動這個實在產生了很大的一個衝擊那麼本席必須指出政府對於不同社會群體的態度現在實在存著顯著的雙重標準勞保七年來一直撥補"},{"start":3348.071,"end":3371.786,"text":"並且還公開承諾會支付責任還要動用國庫 也要保住制度但是輪到軍工就要退出基金卻一直強調不能撥補這是你們的能力問題不能恢復調整機制而且一再以基金的歸零連線要做要挾請問政府面對不同群體怎麼態度如此差異的這麼大呢"},{"start":3372.707,"end":3386.847,"text":"這樣子的邏輯讓大家很難接受為什麼勞保可以撥補公教不能撥補台電虧損可以撥補公教不能撥補這種粗暴的制度割裂正是國家破壞信任最基本的原因"},{"start":3387.948,"end":3411.181,"text":"國家應該是所有的人一視同仁而不能以政治利益來區分不能以政治利益來看待施捨與分割我們沒有無意否認那個勞保的必要保障而且支持合理的一個保障但是回歸正確能源政策的公益制度我們也支持但是唯獨退休金"},{"start":3411.821,"end":3440.677,"text":"怎麼會被排除在政府的保障之外呢政府若主張照顧全民請拿出一視同仁的標準停止對軍公教群體的懲罰性改革與偏見操作退休制度不應該是選舉的工具而是憲政責任若政府不改變這種選擇性承擔選擇性照顧的政策態度人民爭取勞動後的退休權益是正當而且合理的"},{"start":3442.157,"end":3469.942,"text":"長期遭受政府冷落與煽動對立若再不停下檢討的腳步來做年改的政策那麼歸零將是人民對政府信任的完全崩解本席再強調修法不是為了推翻改革而是要讓改革不失衡改革必須要動態調整要不然就是政府對特定世代的施加無止境的壓力最後本席要呼籲"},{"start":3471.058,"end":3493.251,"text":"各界應該要正視我們修法的訴求不是停止砍削所得替代率或者是建立即時與物價指數或調薪聯動的調整性機制而是針對現實困境所提出的具體修補方案敬請各位與會的代表與社會大眾來理解我們捍衛退休公教人員權益的立場"},{"start":3494.031,"end":3509.019,"text":"此次修法是為台灣的教育體系與公職人員爭取一個穩定可信的退休保障基礎好 謝謝林慶琴委員好 那接下來我們請郭倍宇理事長發言"},{"start":3519.604,"end":3546.886,"text":"各位委員然後各位教育的先進們大家早安我是擔任縣執新北高工教師會理事長甚至是縣執的國文科老師以及導師的立場來為這場公聽會發聲那為什麼我們必須要站在這裡為我們的權益發聲呢我們不是反改革我們也不是堅守自己的特權其實我們只是希望這場改革不要犧牲我們老師的尊嚴以及往後安定的生活"},{"start":3547.686,"end":3576.041,"text":"那我們現在對現金年金改革的這個政策我們表達非常深刻的憂慮以及不安大家可以看到教師不是數字是一群用生命在教育的人我覺得我們教師不應該被簡化成財政的數字我們在所有的文件上看到的都是滿滿的數字15年軍縫所得替代率財務缺口"},{"start":3576.681,"end":3601.527,"text":"那這些數字的背後大家是不是有看到一個在半夜默默的改週記改作文的老師大家是不是有看到下班以後還在跟家長聯繫的老師大家是不是有看到自掏腰包獎勵學生的老師就像我學生都直接跟我說老師你的導師費都是副成長我說沒錯因為我導師費拿來全部自掏腰包贊助我們學生的比賽獎金"},{"start":3603.154,"end":3630.659,"text":"好 那接下來我覺得這樣子的改革其實對我們第一線的教師來說是從青春奉獻到白髮那其實投入的不是只有時間而是一生的熱情跟理想大家可以看到我們現在旁邊的這張圖片這個之前還甚至翻拍過電影他叫老師你會不會回來這是台灣唯一一個奪過台灣三大教師獎像Super教師獎Power教師獎跟師奪獎的王振中老師"},{"start":3631.699,"end":3656.297,"text":"這位老師他曾經在目前在南投市的中寮鄉雙文國中任教他當初在派到這間學校的時候他決定的他退伍就打算離開這間偏鄉的學校這學校的學生學習意願極為低落資源極差他就覺得我恨不得想要離開接著九二一大地震學生只問他一句老師你會不會回來"},{"start":3657.378,"end":3672.047,"text":"他動搖了他決定要為了這些小孩子努力這本書裡面我印象最深刻的一句話說鄭中老師說透過教育讓沒有資源沒有機會的孩子享有公平的對待進而有翻身的機會"},{"start":3673.468,"end":3701.01,"text":"那這樣子的正宗老師他甚至可以在去年2024年8月發文表示他們的爽文國中目前也面臨了無人報考代理教師的窘境他們的英文有17招數學34招招不到老師的狀況之下他直指第一個關鍵就是教師的整體薪資結構跟不上社會變遷這是非常嚴重的"},{"start":3702.191,"end":3710.17,"text":"所以年金對於現職教授而言不是只有退休金這麼簡單而是社會對於我們教育奉獻的肯定"},{"start":3716.707,"end":3737.202,"text":"接下來我要表達的是我們的改革方向錯誤了我們懲罰奉獻但並未根本解決問題現行的所有的改革政策讓退休老師們的所得驟減三成以上政府常常用破產歸零這樣的威脅危言聳聽那其實行我們教師剝削之勢"},{"start":3738.603,"end":3765.445,"text":"這時候我就會覺得這樣子的震盪其實打擊了我們第一線教師的士氣讓年輕們再也不敢投入教職避之唯恐不及那這本書是最近非常火紅的一本書叫做《當我告別教職》梁芳玉老師是我隔壁班大學同學她當初以台北市教徵榜首之資考上台北市的國中服務她任教了12年之後離開了校園"},{"start":3767.046,"end":3792.967,"text":"裡面這本書提到了教師的困境我印象最深刻的是他提到了有三個困境第一個 教師過勞第二 師道不遵第三 薪資脫節那我們說一句難聽的實話在教育圈當中容納得下放牛吃草容納得下官商勾結 息事寧人怎麼會容不下一顆認真的心呢"},{"start":3794.288,"end":3799.234,"text":"難道我們還要承受更多認真優秀的老師慢慢出走嗎"},{"start":3803.504,"end":3827.111,"text":"改革應該是修正我覺得不是割裂的手段我們提到的問題世代不平衡這個政府跟我們的信任之間的關係是被摧毀的新進教師繳多領少但是未來卻會慢慢的延後退休那第二個改革應該以公平跟信任當作基礎107年開始公教人員的退休金從5年軍風到118年的15年軍風作為計算"},{"start":3830.833,"end":3837.028,"text":"那勞工的退休計算薪資是五年的平均薪資這樣對我們來說真的是合理的公平的嗎"},{"start":3844.997,"end":3865.311,"text":"接下來我要表達的是這是兩則新聞報導大家應該非常的常見教室化漫延全台7.4萬准教師準備放棄教職的原因曝光那紅圈圈圈起來就是最主要的關鍵薪資缺乏吸引力勞動條件不佳甚至是待遇偏低行政工作負荷繁重"},{"start":3866.051,"end":3886.85,"text":"那其實跟很多勞工比起來我們並非高薪的族群但我們承受了非常多的壓力行政壓力 優質化 人才基地記憶教育 公開授課甚至是學習歷程檔案越來越誇張的校事會議老師動輒得救這樣子的壓力對於我們這些年輕人來說只會讓我們想要離開"},{"start":3890.717,"end":3918.48,"text":"接下來在2015年也有教育行政的論文指出退休制度的改革對於教師的工作士氣有正相關的影響所以退休金對我們來說是社會契約的體現是希望我們老師可以沒有後顧之憂穩定教學的後盾國家希望我們付出新春就要有責任保障我們的未來老年是有基本的生活尊嚴的"},{"start":3919.693,"end":3936.947,"text":"在2022年經濟合作的記憶發展組織OECD他們有發展各國調查各國教育概觀針對教學的週數、日數、教學的時數作為調查這三項指標台灣皆高於平均值不知道各位知不知道"},{"start":3937.708,"end":3955.414,"text":"平均週數 教學週數來說平均38週台灣40到42週教學日數平均185天但是台灣有197到200天也就是台灣老師的工時也居高不下這都是非常現實的"},{"start":3962.341,"end":3984.71,"text":"接下來我們必須回到正題我們必須沉痛的呼籲必須要修正公立學校教職員退休之前復續條例的第37條跟67條第37條應該修正為從113年之後的所值替代率113年以後皆不使用第67條應該修正條文必照勞保國保農保以物價核實調整"},{"start":3986.07,"end":4013.941,"text":"那這時候我們就會思考到他不是這樣改革不是重回舊制而是讓制度不會以犧牲教育者為代價又可以確保財政是穩定的並且破除那些不合理的謠言這張兩張照片分別是本校我們頒發20年30年資深優良教室的講座跟獎狀所以這些講座只是上級官員們對於老師尊重的一個表象嗎"},{"start":4015.781,"end":4029.868,"text":"下面這張照片是我們學校特教科的導師跟班上同學們教師姐的合照這樣子的愛教育陪伴不值得擁有安穩的退休生活嗎請各位在座思考"},{"start":4038.208,"end":4052.028,"text":"接下來教育的改革不應該從背棄老師開始如果我們的雇主也就是政府連照顧老師的承諾都做不到我們要怎麼去說服年輕人說我們的努力是會有回報的"},{"start":4053.427,"end":4077.941,"text":"我們在課堂外除了備課之外還要為未來擔心受怕教師的退休就會被人民視為負擔這樣孩子們看到的是一個非常害怕的老師而不是尊敬的典範那我們知道改革應該是修復這樣子的信任關係而不是摧毀教育才是一個文明國家最有效益最長遠的投資"},{"start":4084.932,"end":4107.064,"text":"接下來最後我們做一個收尾這是反對倉促跟失衡的改革第二個 請重新檢討公立學校教職員退休資金撫恤條例的第37跟第67條這張照片是今年度的信談分方獎的合照大家可以看看上面有多少資深的老師在為這個校育現場做服務"},{"start":4108.144,"end":4130.201,"text":"那我們希望今天的公聽會不會再把這個議題重重的提起卻是輕輕的放下改革不是撕裂的代名詞而是讓老師安心的教學社會恢復信任的起點我的報告到此 謝謝大家好 謝謝謝謝郭理事長那麼接下來我們請"},{"start":4137.601,"end":4153.917,"text":"接下來我們請羅德水主任是有請羅主任"},{"start":4172.342,"end":4183.011,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進我今天報告的主題有兩個第一個是旅行撥補承諾確保基金永續第二個是關於"},{"start":4184.451,"end":4188.841,"text":"目前教師荒 教師年齡結構逐漸老化的狀況應該要鬆綁退休門檻我想今天討論的主題"},{"start":4194.958,"end":4221.598,"text":"不管是替代率或是怎麼調整政府要怎麼撥補 年改導致教師的失之老化這些問題的背後其實就是這三個凸顯這三個很核心的大家要討論的點第一個 就政府大家都講政府也自己講要負最後之負保證責任但是要怎麼履行第二個是大家最關心的各個世代都關心的基金永續怎麼確保"},{"start":4222.699,"end":4245.004,"text":"第三個現在問題這麼多我們的國會我們的行政部門怎麼樣去修法然後回應教育現場的需求我想還是要回顧一下從年改以來現在那麼多年出現了一些問題我簡單把它歸納跟今天有關的主要有四個我想第一個就是選擇性改革事實上"},{"start":4246.499,"end":4259.054,"text":"公教退府之所以要改革主要的原因就是講他的財務有問題出現問題又巨額潛藏負債但大家都知道按照最新的精算勞保的潛藏負債已經突破13兆"},{"start":4261.656,"end":4284.484,"text":"那一開始說改革的時候其實是講軍公教勞要接續改革但是改到軍公教就停止而且還說對勞保是撥補就是改革那如果勞保是撥補就是改革公教退補應該就是比照辦理不然就是選擇性改革第二個是很明顯的雙重標準我想有一筆叫做年資補償金這一個項目"},{"start":4287.845,"end":4314.897,"text":"這一個補償金其實是在民國八十四年八十五年退府救治由國家恩己改成退府基金制度的時候立法院通過的一個補償措施這個制度已經入法而且跟退府基金完全無關但年改以後出現了很明顯的雙重標準就是軍人繼續保留但是公教人員卻刪除很明顯的雙重標準第三個是制度問亂"},{"start":4316.434,"end":4341.927,"text":"一二新制上路以後因為新進人員以後的退休金改成個人帳戶制他的退休金理論上會大幅減少所以政府的規劃就是讓這些人可以領公保年金所以就出現很荒謬的狀況就是舊的人沒有辦法領公保年金低成的基礎年金沒有辦法領年金反而"},{"start":4342.947,"end":4368.835,"text":"是要領一次給付我們的公保作為第一層的社會保險目前竟然有五種費率五種給付方式這個就是越改越亂第四個就是嚴重的影響施肢新陳代謝我等一下會有具體的數字給各位看我們為什麼認為逐額撥補是當務之急這個年改以後有建立了政府的監控機制指標這個是"},{"start":4370.876,"end":4393.541,"text":"考試院跟行政院一起建立的指標第一項有六點第一項就是要尊重退補基金的財務定期精算結果我想這個是所有退休金的核心的理念就是你要尊重精算要尊重統計要科學管理各位看一下這是第八次已經三年前的精算很明顯我們可以看到"},{"start":4394.67,"end":4401.337,"text":"按照這個精算如果用10年來撥補公務能源10年要撥補1940億20年反而要撥補2400億這個就是我們一直在講的政府為什麼選擇"},{"start":4410.446,"end":4430.657,"text":"撥補比較多的20年方案而不選擇撥補相對少的10年方案公教人員這兩筆一起加起來如果選擇20年會比10年多出710億各位可以記得這個數字因為第九次精算就出來了剛出來的第九次精算"},{"start":4431.457,"end":4444.509,"text":"如果這個就是拖延撥補的代價就是動越來越大就是過去3年第8次精算到第9次精算我們可以看到如果分10年撥補第9次精算公教人員合起來要3370億但是分20年這個數字變成4120億"},{"start":4450.094,"end":4468.625,"text":"比第八次精算還在增加 還在惡化這個數字是 差距是750億所以我們真的沒有辦法理解請朝委委員 這個應該不分黨團連執政黨的委員都應該好好的去問一下行政院 考試院到底你為什麼不選擇20年然後偏偏選擇20年"},{"start":4472.347,"end":4489.599,"text":"分20年要多出750億然後可能還沒有撥補完這個基金又接近破產為什麼不10年趕快把它撥補那剛才幾位先進也有講到我們有看到數字勞保這幾年的撥補如果加今年邊明年的預算加下去應該是會突破5000億"},{"start":4492.068,"end":4519.143,"text":"其實這五千億如果拿來撥補退補基金這個新制上路的缺口已經擬平了就已經擬平了但是我們竟然要花十年都還沒辦法接受要選擇二十年我覺得政府欠人民一個說法為什麼選擇一個最差的方案那為什麼公教人員不信任政府因為剛才我講這些數字不管是十年二十年其實他只是能夠延後用慶年度三到四年"},{"start":4520.225,"end":4527.396,"text":"真正的大動還有三兆如果要維持50年不用慶各要撥補每年要撥補這麼多錢如果你"},{"start":4531.361,"end":4559.4,"text":"連這個新制上路這個短短的少少的幾千例你都不願意撥補未來這三兆到底要怎麼撥補法所以公教人員一般人民越來越不信任政府這個就是因為政府的實際作為讓人家不信任接下來我們講一下中小學教師的生態現在就是大概就是這樣的狀況有證老師不入場教師年齡結構失衡平均年齡上升我給各位看多可怕的數字這些數字都是教育部上面的數字"},{"start":4560.863,"end":4585.657,"text":"可以看一下你看這個是國小專任教師各位看一下藍色的那一條線就是50歲以上的人數持續的升高年改以後這個擴大越來越嚴重就是各位可以看一下30歲以下的國小老師現在不到10%但是50歲以上的已經有35%"},{"start":4587.74,"end":4607.096,"text":"這個是國中一模一樣的走向在104年死亡交叉年改106 107上路更擴大這個年齡的惡化各位可以看一下現在全台灣的公立國中的專任老師30歲以下的只有不到7%但是50歲以上的超過30%"},{"start":4609.419,"end":4624.23,"text":"這個是很明顯的失之新陳代謝的惡化這是高中老師一模一樣各位看一下不到10%然後50歲以上的一樣超過30幾%我想這個數字不改善我們的教育品質不可能進步"},{"start":4625.07,"end":4647.508,"text":"那为什么会出现这个状况我觉得很主要的原因就有几个第一个就是一二新制上路以后因为改成确定个人的账户制变成确定提拨制从确定给付改成确定提拨所以了解状况的公教人员他不想进场因为他的未来是一个不确定的未来那个退休金根本没办法算"},{"start":4648.368,"end":4676.903,"text":"教育部之前有算說以後可以領多少錢那個都是騙不懂的人因為你必須有前提才能知道未來能夠領多少錢否則根本不知道30年後能夠領多少錢完全不知道所以政府才立法院包括行政部門才讓這些人有公保年金其實是一個交換我覺得這是一個很大的原因第二個就是現場的狀況太不友善所以讓老師不敢進場"},{"start":4678.383,"end":4692.659,"text":"那这个会持续的恶化那我两个建议我想第一个政府常常会讲说最后知不责任最后知不责任但是这句话如果没有实际的拨补它就是口号就是我们刚才讲的"},{"start":4693.4,"end":4712.95,"text":"這一個很明確的指標就是你要用十年或是用二十年我們當然要求可以最好是可以比照勞保三四年內趕快把它撥補完畢就是在新制的缺口的部分最差最差也應該按照十年來撥補但是現在是選擇二十年已經連續三年短編"},{"start":4714.171,"end":4741.277,"text":"現在麻煩是行政院的預算送到立法院立法院委員 朝委黨團就算認同我們的主張也不能增加預算所以一年拖過一年已經連續三年短編大家可以看到第八次第九次的精算這個數字不斷地惡化所以第一個重點就是一定要趕快完成新制上路以後的這個短編的撥補第二個就是取消58歲的退休門檻"},{"start":4743.792,"end":4765.875,"text":"目前隨著這個退休年資的那個月退休門檻逐年的延後未來幾年會到58歲才能退休這個數字一定會讓我們剛才講的那一個年齡的老化會更加的嚴重我們認為年金改革已經砍了老師的"},{"start":4766.676,"end":4778.481,"text":"退休金了老師他會做好規劃如果有人願意提早退你就讓他提早退不用把所有人都綁到58歲這樣可以釋出一些缺額讓薪資可以有新陳代謝謝謝好謝謝羅主任的發言那接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":4801.021,"end":4824.901,"text":"好 各位先敬大家早安也謝謝主席安排今天這個公聽會我想今天現場一定會有許多不同的聲音我們希望在理性討論的前提之下我們把每一個人所在意的事情拿起來一起看那第一個我想要說其實在年金改革這個議題上其實從2013年馬英九前總統在任內的時候我要再次強調是在他任內的時候他就已經說"},{"start":4825.862,"end":4852.698,"text":"他說不得不承認這20年來人口加速高齡化生育率急速降低會出現繳的少退的早領的多而因為這三個原因會產生三大問題就是經費不足行業不平世代不均我想在場的人應該就此時此刻從2013年回過來看此時的2025年大家一定非常游刃同感因此他認為這些問題就會造成"},{"start":4854.739,"end":4880.979,"text":"整體國家財政的負擔因此他說他希望不要把問題留給下一任總統就算再困難年金改革也要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革此時此刻我不知道馬英九總統還記不記得他說的話但是我很希望在野黨的委員回過頭去看去想一想為什麼馬英九前總統在當時他的任內他說這樣的話第二個"},{"start":4881.94,"end":4906.894,"text":"到了蔡英文總統她說有些改革是現在不做以後會後悔可是關於年金是現在不做馬上就會後悔她認為這不是針對個人的問題而是整體制度的問題是歷史的包袱年金改革是希望讓所有高齡者得到足夠的社會安全保障因此在相關的改革方案通過之後我們等一下來看相關數字"},{"start":4908.235,"end":4928.054,"text":"但是另外一個此時此刻也是在野黨的黨主席黃國昌他在2015年的時候他是時代力量的主席他說2015年他在電視上公開說包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年要吃掉政府六千多億的預算十分驚人是國家的財政負擔是社會"},{"start":4928.575,"end":4951.156,"text":"不公平世代不正義的幫兇他認為不合理的年金制度是下一代的問題嗎不是這一代馬上要面對的災難他最後提醒大家我們都在同一條船上要共同努力我很少時候會同意黃國昌的話但是2015年的黃國昌當時說的話我非常的認同當然他現在可能已經忘記他自己說過的話"},{"start":4952.057,"end":4975.584,"text":"我之所以花這麼多時間引用了不同黨派的領導者所說的話是想要回應今天的年金改革我們現在面對的困境現在的修法版本當中主要是在野黨的委員所提出來的第一個停止逐年下降所得替代率第二個年金要隨著消費物價指數調整但是這個調整非常的荒謬竟然是只會加不會減"},{"start":4976.784,"end":4997.029,"text":"我想問這樣子合理公平了嗎目前我們看到相關數字有5%的退休教職員實領退休所得超過5萬元平均每個月支領的金額是5.8元高於國人的平均月薪4.64我想要問這對於當前年輕世代不做事比做事領得多不符合世代正義但是我必須也要認同所有剛剛現場的老師們"},{"start":4999.349,"end":5022.037,"text":"前輩們你們所提出在現場教師荒的困境在現場教育工作人員的困境剛剛還有一位老師提到特教老師的困境這些我自己在教育委員會我從來沒有放棄過問政監督的責任每一題我們都用力的質詢甚至每一個會期在立法院正式召開大規模的座談會也只有我們辦公室在做這個事情所以我要呼籲"},{"start":5022.777,"end":5042.287,"text":"所有現場老師的困境應該不會只有藉由年金改革可以做到教育部在此時此刻有更多在教育政策上可以做的事情我想這是每一個委員都不要逃避的責任而我們當然也沒有逃避因此面對年金改革我今天之所以願意站在這裡發言我當然知道會受到很多現場老師的譴責可是我也要說"},{"start":5043.047,"end":5069.86,"text":"年金改革不必然是百分之百可以解決剛剛所有老師先進所提到教育現場的困境第二個如果按照現在修法國民黨的委員提案的版本我認為退服基金會提早三到四年用慶剛剛有一個老師有提到十年撥普跟二十年撥普確實這個也是很多本黨的委員甚至有張開記者會這個我們都沒有否認因此我們當然要求行政院要有相關的說法這件事情我們從來也沒有退縮我們沒有推脫"},{"start":5071.761,"end":5095.543,"text":"再來我要想制度的修正這件事情如果在此時此刻用國民黨的委員版本通過我們到底還會遇到哪些問題而且剛剛有一個老師提到關於隨著物價指數調整這個事情其實現在的版本已經有了不是修法版本而是現有的版本已經有了但是卻被曲解成沒有隨著調整甚至我還有看到在黨委員的版本要隨著現行老師"},{"start":5096.824,"end":5112.493,"text":"的薪資去做調整也就是雙軌並進而這個會造成多大的財政的困境我想所有在野黨委員自己提了一定非常清楚但是他們卻不告訴國人也不告訴現在還在場服務的老師們公立學校的教職員如果用這個雙軌並進會產生什麼困境跟困難"},{"start":5115.214,"end":5140.286,"text":"修法不可以這樣做不可以只照顧到眼前你認為跟你政治上是互通的一個族群而要顧及到所有世代正義公平正義這件事情還有所有現場剛剛進入公立學校教職員這些人如何看待現在在黨委員修法的版本我也非常的好奇我想講了這麼多我最後謝謝主席我再三十秒我要用馬英九前總統的話做今天的總結"},{"start":5141.687,"end":5160.955,"text":"在這條改革的道路上單靠政府是不夠的因為年金制度本來就是一個自助跟互助的制度馬英九前總統一再強調不只是你的年金或者是我的年金而是我們的年金也是我們子孫的年金更是不能倒也不可以倒的年金"},{"start":5161.835,"end":5179.281,"text":"也許未來的年金大家領到的會比現在略少但可以讓大家放心的領三十年讓我們的子孫也能夠領得到我要拜託在野黨的委員仔細思考慎重的思考這不是你跟我而是我們我們的子孫 以上謝謝好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請葉崇洋教授發言"},{"start":5206.595,"end":5214.724,"text":"主席好還有與會的各位參與者大家好我是東吳大學社會學系的葉崇洋"},{"start":5217.291,"end":5236.583,"text":"今天邀請我來非常高興可以來這邊就是來發表自己的一些意見啦對於年改的一些意見那我對於我仔細的在這幾天我仔細的看了這些的資料然後對於這些法案有比較深入的一些了解之後我基本上我"},{"start":5237.443,"end":5264.518,"text":"對於整個年金改革的意見大概從2017年那時候我就已經有寫過相關的一些文章或者是大概那個意見到現在我的立場大概都沒有什麼樣的改變基本上我都是要認為要有一個整體性的思考去針對台灣年金改革那我們現在台灣年金改革或者是年金體系裡面它面臨四個大問題"},{"start":5265.999,"end":5281.254,"text":"第一個就是不公平的問題那行業不均的問題剛才就是有委員也有提到這個問題然後剛才也有引用像馬英九前總統提出來的行業不均的問題那我們可以看到其實"},{"start":5282.735,"end":5306.385,"text":"現在目前公教退府剛才有提到就是平均大概是領五萬八千塊左右然後他可能還會再加上其他的那勞工的部分你即便是勞保他的平均的可以領到的錢大概是不到兩萬塊就是一萬八到一萬九左右而已那另外就是他可以再加上勞退可能是五六千塊那頂多就是兩萬五千塊實際上"},{"start":5307.665,"end":5315.25,"text":"像我父母基本上一個是領一次退的一次一個是領那個月退的那他領到的錢大概就是一萬"},{"start":5316.916,"end":5343.289,"text":"上下而已所以其實領的來講是相對來講是比較少的農民大概現在目前大概是8000多塊國民年金現在可以領的150萬人大概就是4000塊左右而勞工啊其中有差不多18萬的人那基本上是領不到1萬塊的所以這個行業不均的情況其實是非常嚴重的那這個就會影響到另外一個問題就是財務上的一個問題啦"},{"start":5344.609,"end":5370.875,"text":"我們可以知道就是年金改革它其實很重要都是在解決財務上的問題尤其是我們的年金的設計大部分都是譬如說公教退府或者是勞保它其實都是用了Pay as you go隨收隨付制的制度來做財務的主要的設計所以勞保的部分其實我們在2025年主計處就已經有說到了它其實已經潛藏負債已經高達13.5兆這個是非常高的"},{"start":5373.476,"end":5391.067,"text":"那還有國民研經 農民勞農津貼然後還有加上公教退輔那你不算勞退或是現在已經執行的就是公教新制公教退輔的新制因為都是個人帳戶制還有就是其他的個人帳戶制的話那其實"},{"start":5392.888,"end":5412.054,"text":"單純社會保險制的部分或者是Pay as you go的部分那其實對於目前的台灣的財政來講是一個非常重的負擔那我在這邊可能要跟因為我一直在上課上有關年金的課那我一直在跟同學在強調一件事情"},{"start":5413.362,"end":5425.007,"text":"我們Pairs You Go的年金財務的設計核心是繳費的年金世代只要我們不願意繳費你這個國家的年金就撐不下去"},{"start":5426.311,"end":5446.722,"text":"因為是我們付錢給那些已退休的人所以剛才有提到像撥補這件事情還有投資這件事情我跟大家先科普一件事情投資你要依賴投資報酬率來解決財務問題所有的國家都告訴我們這是不可能的"},{"start":5447.422,"end":5468.453,"text":"這是在學術上已經認證的事情如果需要我可以給你們任何的證據這是不可能存在的因為人口老化的速度已經遠超過我們的想像了所以在這種情況底下你要依賴投資是完全不可能去解決年金財務的問題而且如果你是依賴撥補的話"},{"start":5470.855,"end":5493.249,"text":"撥補本來的公教退府它是由僱主跟勞工一起去提撥這個錢在這個情況底下僱主就是政府勞工就是教師或是公教人員撥補的情況底下就會變成是它是用稅收來撥補會變成是我要幫你們撥補可是我又不用"},{"start":5494.744,"end":5517.636,"text":"我付的稅為什麼要幫你們撥補為什麼不花來解決少子化的問題如果你的少子化的問題可以解決的話那財政的問題才可以解決如果你少子化的問題沒有辦法解決財政的問題就永遠會存在那邊尤其當你的年金的設計的時候是Pay as you go的時候那就不可能解決這件事情"},{"start":5518.635,"end":5534.788,"text":"而第三點我們現在除了財務的問題它會有世代不均的問題之外第三個它可能會涉及到延退提早退出勞動市場提早退休那這個會有三點第一個就是"},{"start":5537.106,"end":5563.069,"text":"這個你在說就是人口結構的老化就是教師人靈結構的老化是他有可能很多的原因不單純只是因為老老師不退休或者是怎麼樣他有可能是人口老化的因素而且有可能是因為少子化的因素啊如果你少子化沒有解決誰會想要進去當老師因為我隨時有可能會因為學校關掉就被裁掉或者是被失業或者是被"},{"start":5564.557,"end":5582.778,"text":"流放到某個地方去或是被整病嘛所以我也不希望這樣我既然看得到少子化是這樣的情況底下我為什麼還要進入會有可能會面臨少子化問題的行業呢譬如說教師像大學老師其實也是一樣啊"},{"start":5583.439,"end":5609.846,"text":"大學老師他其實面臨的我們面臨的東西其實是類似的啊招生問題啊2028第一波的少子化的海嘯就要來了而且在過去幾年我現在46歲然後我還要待如果沒有延退的話大概就是還要待19年20年也就是說我一定會面臨到疫情那一波或者是甚至這一兩年這一波也就18年後他要念大學的時候他那個人口就只有"},{"start":5610.706,"end":5626.315,"text":"剩下11萬左右而已甚至更低那這樣情況底下誰會想要進入教育產業教育產業受到少子化的影響其實是非常重的而且第二個問題就是"},{"start":5627.645,"end":5652.447,"text":"我們在討論提早退休或者是人齡結構老化的情況底下其實有另外一個問題其實非常我覺得是非常重要的比如說不適任的教師或是公務員你要不要讓你的公務員或是教師有一個自由競爭的機制就是說我們現在大學老師基本上都已經取消掉紀念條款也就是說你只要"},{"start":5653.851,"end":5668.476,"text":"可以進入大學任教的話他是專任的話你就可以當助理教授當一輩子即便他教學不好即便他研究不好服務不好我們還是不能排除他因為非常困難而且在法律上"},{"start":5669.895,"end":5688.688,"text":"的規範或者是在法院上判決上都是對學校不利的那你不能開除他他就只能一直到當一輩子的助理教授那我不是任又不好我們也不能對他怎麼樣子而且在這種情況底下你在聘任老師大學在聘任老師也不見得那麼公正"},{"start":5689.508,"end":5710.563,"text":"也搞不好都有內定的情況所以有些人很厲害的人或是很適合的人他想要進來他也進不來所以這種情況不解決你的人靈結構必定會老化而且第二個是你投入人靈結構老化它不只是單純年金的問題它有可能是因為勞動市場環境"},{"start":5713.383,"end":5727.483,"text":"現在要告訴我說我年金幫你增加你保證一方面你保證領得到嗎二方面是我這個環境會想要進去嗎對不對所以在這種情況底下你工時高我現在錢"},{"start":5729.105,"end":5743.612,"text":"前天禮拜二的時候去做體檢然後我們體檢有一個現在有出身體健康之後還有一個心理健康的然後我的工作時數就是加班每週加班多少我把它填100個小時"},{"start":5745.29,"end":5761.562,"text":"那個每個月 每個月加班多少我填100個小時那個人一直都不相信我加班還有超過100小時我在家也都還是在繼續工作 念書 寫東西所以在這種情況底下工資高而且我們薪資低以前有一個香港的老師跟我講"},{"start":5762.978,"end":5787.686,"text":"他扣掉他的校勤費 請兩個保姆的錢然後加上一些生活開銷他每個月存下來的錢都還是我的兩倍我是教授 所以他還是我的兩倍那你就知道他多高了所以我其實要提出來最後一個問題就是台灣社會福利或者是社會政策的問題我們常常是腳痛醫腳然後頭痛也醫腳所以我們都沒有辦法去對症下藥"},{"start":5793.817,"end":5816.156,"text":"就算對證了他也不見得能夠解決問題所以我覺得我以前寫過一篇文章叫做笨蛋問題在制度所以那篇文章被在2017年寫的所以你們可以稍微去看一下那我明年有發表一本書叫做葬送的福利年金那是有關台灣年金改革的如果大家有興趣可以去買來看謝謝大家"},{"start":5818.755,"end":5824.22,"text":"好 謝謝葉教授那接下來我們請董寶成教授發言好"},{"start":5843.181,"end":5867.723,"text":"主席還有各位立法委員還有各位學術專家還有各位列席的機關代表八年以前軍公教司法院大法官受理這個四限改革軍公教七八二 七八三七八四的時候老師有在現場我有代表教育人員在現場一直呼籲"},{"start":5868.992,"end":5895.547,"text":"這個年輕改革呢會對教育會有很大的傷害剛剛有些委員還在提馬英九的時代現在都是八年以後了還在提這個實在是覺得時空逆轉不一樣首先呢我必須要感謝今天這個議題看起來好像是我們在談錢其實我們是談制度制度不改革"},{"start":5897.498,"end":5925.209,"text":"其中最重要的就是要老師要安心 要安養但是呢 今天我們可以在座的可以看到我們列席的長官教育部常務次長 朱俊璋出來可是實際上管退伏基金的卻是一個師長我在政府機關工作過 這代表什麼這些退伏基金的首長他本身也是學者出身他難道不知道學校的現場現況嗎"},{"start":5928.001,"end":5950.764,"text":"所以我覺得因為退伏基金造成的問題造成的後遺症所以才有今天教育很多地方沒辦法改那才是源頭那才是根所以今天我可以說不能夠單單認為我們是為了錢而來那是抹殺我們教育者抹殺你們的老師"},{"start":5952.639,"end":5974.58,"text":"首先呢窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子大家都知道可是這個孩子啊是全民的孩子不是某一個政黨的孩子當初呢軍公教呢就是要砍要砍誰啊因為軍公教不是什麼支持民進黨的這些人否則的話為什麼年輕改革為什麼不繼續把勞工也改啊"},{"start":5975.785,"end":5996.472,"text":"所以這個環境是沒有道理所以呢窮不能窮教育 苦不能恐孩子所有的人都會這樣講可是這個孩子是台灣的孩子不是在野黨的孩子回去問問看你們的孩子問問你們學校的孩子的孫子整個的教育環境現在是多麼的險峻讓老師要安心我的書面資料在59頁"},{"start":6005.044,"end":6011.681,"text":"59月 60月 61月因為我們可以知道通膨下的現實環境"},{"start":6013.956,"end":6042.128,"text":"我們雖然有寫37條說逐年砍然後有67條說政府要隨時來隨著物價調整可是在這裡面還要參考國家經濟的環境政府還有財政財富財政退伏基金的準備率雖然有這個規定可是從來到現在從來沒有調整相對於"},{"start":6043.862,"end":6059.749,"text":"國民年金法老年農民福利經推出戰刑條例這個部分來講他們卻沒有這個規定所以我覺得對於老師不是要特別優待老師是我們培養"},{"start":6061.397,"end":6084.945,"text":"台灣人才非常重要的一個源頭 一個根本那聯改的後遺症大家也很清楚我曾經擔任在憲法法庭113年憲判制有關代理教師的問題在憲判制第七號大法官的解釋指出說少子化與年金改革造成了教師延退"},{"start":6085.874,"end":6100.879,"text":"於呢 原額控管使學校大量依賴代理老師甚至民營學校也沒有辦法找到老師甚至呢因此我們的資深老師都不願意退因為一退之後呢就陷入到那個什麼每年最砍1.5所以呢 我覺得呢這個我們看起來是形式平等實際上來講呢是對於反而使教育的品質與學習權啊一再要受損我們要讓老師啊"},{"start":6115.089,"end":6130.763,"text":"奉獻不白惠那就需要給他一個安心退心的隨奉特別是各位我們公務人員我們在座的公務人員今天為什麼要當市長為什麼要當次長為什麼要當科長因為有一個理論就叫做什麼"},{"start":6132.106,"end":6158.652,"text":"職位合理照顾原则今天如果你在什么职位退休你就应该要什么相对的比例在你的退休金的照顾应该要符合比例原则否则谁愿意担任这个行政责任今天在场的我想每一个人愿意当师长都向贡献心力这个应该要符合职位合理照顾原则可是呢我们的政府接触说你们的钱比劳工多了现在什么时代啊"},{"start":6159.861,"end":6188.569,"text":"因為這樣子才可以才是真正的所謂的憲法所保障的退休金的什麼憲法制度性的保障特別是我們現在這個法不但修理我也修理你們在座的各位公務員我們說信賴保護今天我們要政府要人民守法 守份政府要我們公務員中心依法行政尊重憲法忠誠"},{"start":6190.336,"end":6215.444,"text":"好啊 是的 我們應該這樣做可是我們因此我們相信政府會守法結果呢 政府不但不守法 反而說因為快破產了所以呢你們要什麼 共體時間政府讓人民不信賴人民怎麼會信賴政府呢所以今天在座的各位"},{"start":6216.616,"end":6235.519,"text":"我特別要肯定教育部因為教育部他知道這些問題很多也會回到年金改革所以他沒有辦法所以一個源頭在這裡我們在座的現任公務員也都是受害者你們繼續也要砍所以不要退因為你們一退就開始砍了"},{"start":6238.877,"end":6263.978,"text":"那我們為什麼要讓老師呢要有這個心情呢因為我們最主要要有這個合理的待遇呢因為他安心安退才能夠他的專業自主他的尊嚴與熱情沒有這個尊嚴與熱情我們教育怎麼會永續呢我們要留住熱情好的老師啊所以我是覺得呢而且當初啊"},{"start":6265.445,"end":6292.649,"text":"當初考試院提的版本是八折然後五年砍1.5可是到了立法院那個時候我還在政府官府服務結果是段宜康議員一口氣就叫架怎麼有這樣立法的粗糙呢你還回去問問獨立機關的考試院結果段宜康現在溜了剩下攤子誰收"},{"start":6294.987,"end":6321.059,"text":"所以我覺得立法不能那麼粗糙不能夠當初考試院他們經過這麼多的專家學者人家他是主管機關結果到立法院確實由一個委員現場的情緒發言砍成這樣子段委員你怎麼對得起台灣的這一代未來一代我們的軍公教軍公教是國家的中堅力量"},{"start":6323.576,"end":6352.506,"text":"連金公教都不相信政府你們怎麼期待我們公務員呢 我們的老師呢所以呢 因此呢 要尊嚴 要永續我們必須要給老師一定的安心安退各位 年金破產 大家已經講了很多了說會破產 破個鬼多年來真的破產 我們早就"},{"start":6354.179,"end":6378.599,"text":"領不起薪水啦 不要嘛 這只是一個基金 你沒有經營好所以呢 尊重老師 不要把 老師不要把工人當笨蛋不要把軍人當笨蛋 這什麼叫年輕破產呢所以把老師 所以我們應該要教育的品質還有特別現在為什麼很多人都不願意去什麼"},{"start":6380.259,"end":6403.037,"text":"在學校教書現在還有一個教師會議在我的文章裡面講我們的教師會議啊校師會議啊我認為根本就是一個把什麼把學校老師當作小小班當作變態大部分老師啊都是為什麼學生來投入教育的所以我現在待會要趕回去什麼教學因為我十點鐘有課所以謝謝那個這個李小蘭女士長來讓我來這個先講話"},{"start":6406.764,"end":6424.183,"text":"所以我可以告訴各位 台灣有青天 台灣有復國神山因為神山後面有我們這群的軍工教所以拜託各位 特別我剛剛看這個立法委員有幾個就出去了我的良心 這孩子不是國民黨的孩子也不是民眾黨的孩子 是大家的孩子所以跟各位報告"},{"start":6432.912,"end":6461.612,"text":"我這邊也特別畫一張牌 要做一個大的庭崁年經啊 常常說走回頭路怎麼是走回頭路呢我要只是庭崁 我已經被崁到現在了我再一再崁下去我連什麼連那個什麼 包大人都買不起什麼叫包大人 老人尿片啊所以庭崁公教年經 它是庭崁然後回復到它應該有的"},{"start":6463.047,"end":6492.31,"text":"給他制度否則的話 各位呢不是回頭是岸苦海無邊我們現在教師 公務員多苦啊你不要只看到有些公務員有些小老師現在還去玩他是什麼他是應有的尊嚴啊所以呢 我覺得呢不是走回頭路而是回頭是岸因為苦海已經無邊了謝謝大家好 謝謝董教授"},{"start":6493.223,"end":6515.825,"text":"那麼接下來我們因為陸陸續續又有幾位專家學者到場所以我這邊先再介紹那首先先介紹黃景堂教授第二位是賴中強律師台灣經濟民主聯合智庫然後第三位是台北商業大學財稅系的黃耀輝教授"},{"start":6517.751,"end":6529.283,"text":"那第四位是清大動力機械工程學系的賀承宏教授也是前清大校長好請坐謝謝那接下來我們請張志倫委員發言好謝謝主席各位與會的專家各位委員各位朋友大家好"},{"start":6540.939,"end":6549.062,"text":"自2017年年金改革以來公教人員退休所得替代率每年遞減1.5%到2029年就是15年"},{"start":6555.388,"end":6560.73,"text":"這個將降至6成以下這8年間消費者物價指數CPI累積上漲約8%但公教年金僅於111年象徵性的調整2%實質購買率這樣子加起來將會少將近5成"},{"start":6574.893,"end":6596.393,"text":"許多退休人員面對醫療照護生活成本高漲陷入越老越窮的困境這不僅是數字問題而是尊嚴與信任的問題所以本席要強調退休金是勞動報酬的延遲給付不應該淪為政治角力下的犧牲品"},{"start":6597.034,"end":6624.946,"text":"老保年金早有明确法定机制在CPI涨幅达50%给付必须随之调整反观教职的退府制度却缺乏自动联动机制一切仍取决于政府年度财政与政治考量欠缺可预期性以及稳定性这样的双重标准无法说服基层的教师也削弱"},{"start":6625.566,"end":6649.404,"text":"青年投入教职的意愿教征的报考人数从2015年起便跌破4万大关逐年往下降去年只剩下3万多人也反映出信任流失的结果我们支持合理的改革但反对将改革变成长期削减的代名词本期此次的修法"},{"start":6650.445,"end":6672.88,"text":"並非要恢復舊制而是要停止所得替代率的逐年遞減並建立比照勞保CPI的調整機制讓制度以剩時對接確保退休所得不被通膨侵蝕同時要求政府應該提高調撥的比例不能讓基金的缺口"},{"start":6673.76,"end":6694.689,"text":"成為削減年金的藉口更重要的是今天這場爭議的核心不僅是年金數字的高低而是政府與公教之間的信任的修復107年改革以後退休公教實質所得大幅縮水基金收益穩定"},{"start":6696.13,"end":6723.268,"text":"税收年年超增政府却持续调降所得替代率让基层公教感觉被背叛今年的退休公教就是明日再执公教的禁止如果政府可以任意改变承诺未来年轻的公教人员还敢相信我们的制度吗因此我们主张的停砍基金不是走回头路而是让制度回归正轨"},{"start":6723.928,"end":6751.067,"text":"停止定減電力物價聯動機制並依法逐額撥補是最基本的誠信要求唯有讓奉獻國家的公教人員在退休後能夠能有安穩有尊嚴的生活國家的行政體系與社會信任才能真正穩固最後還是要非常感謝今天所有到場的老師以及教授們大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":6754.178,"end":6759.674,"text":"好 謝謝張委員那接下來我們請林弘洋教授發言 謝謝"},{"start":6765.369,"end":6789.103,"text":"主席以及各位在場的委員還有各位夥伴大家好非常感謝有這個機會就是受邀來這邊談這個議題因為我過去在大概20幾年間其實主要做的都是跟年金制度設計有關的這個研究所以在這邊的話其實我嘗試就提出一些可能更深遠的一些思考因為"},{"start":6790.063,"end":6801.629,"text":"其實過去這幾年受邀到立法院來參加這個公聽會其實我會認為我們現在一直以來討論的這個年金改革議題比較核心的都沒有"},{"start":6802.978,"end":6816.713,"text":"就是都沒有觸及啦坦白說所以坦白說我這個第一頁這個內容其實我一直以來都就是這幾年之間其實沒有太大的修正因為台灣其實是走所謂的B4麥的年金體系也就是說個別的這個職業的這個系統是分立的"},{"start":6821.417,"end":6849.008,"text":"過去的這個概念的話會比較強調這個相同職業身分別之間的團結那再來的話過去的這個比較高的所得替代率它主要是因為過往的這個家庭的這個怎麼講的這個基礎是以這個主要所得者男性主要所得者在外工作所以說他需要有比較高的這個在退休之後有比較高的所得替代率來涵蓋他家中的這個依附者經濟依附者"},{"start":6849.768,"end":6877.33,"text":"所以這個會是在1880年代的時候還蠻重要的一個時空環境但其實到現在來說的話其實時空環境是改變了非常多特別是像女性家中的原先的經濟衣服者她也不斷地進入到勞動市場其實每一個人依著他的薪資都有他的退休金在所以目前世界各國的改革的趨勢它其實是不斷地在調降他的所得替代率"},{"start":6878.413,"end":6899.488,"text":"那我們現在我們年金保險體系的挑戰其實剛剛其實各位先進有談到了就各種的這個可能結構上的這個調整的這個思考以及它背後的這些邏輯等等的其實當然就不拖這些啦像少子女化然後平均餘命延長然後所造成的這一個人口結構改革啦所以說其實目前看到的這一個"},{"start":6901.89,"end":6917.545,"text":"各國的年金體系的調整都會朝向不同職業別之間的社會團結為方向其實比較有名的例子像美國它在1983年的年金改革它其實就把公教人員也整個併到社會安全系統裡面來"},{"start":6920.808,"end":6943.343,"text":"那2000年代早期其實也開始在動作的是奧地利它也是非常的傳統的這個彼斯曼年金體系它也朝向這個不同職業身分別之間的這個整合主要是因為說在少子女化這個狀況底下然後以及平均愚民延長再加上就是我們的這個退休年齡它的這個調整往後延伸就是往延退的這個調整的路上它其實會讓這一個就是比較緩慢的這個狀況底下它其實會讓"},{"start":6949.446,"end":6970.841,"text":"領取退休金的人口群相較於工作人口的比例其實是不斷地惡化所以才會有這樣子的一個調整的方向所以說也需要進一步去思考的也在於說社會總體的產出到時候可以怎麼樣維持等等的"},{"start":6971.201,"end":6994.633,"text":"特別是少子女化的這個部分其實各位夥伴應該也會看到就是說在2023年這個2023年我們國家所公布的這個總生育率已經低到是0.872024年今年剛公布是0.865總生育率平均一位育齡婦女就生這樣子的一個子女數而已"},{"start":6995.971,"end":7017.45,"text":"如果說去參考歐陸國家各國的總生育率它平均目前是介於大概1.6到2.0之間跟台灣比起來是非常高但是它也不斷地去向下修正它所的替代率去往後延伸它的退休年齡到67到70甚至它整個拿掉退休年齡的界限"},{"start":7019.332,"end":7038.388,"text":"所以這個部分的話在台灣面臨這麼嚴峻的這個少子女化的這個議題我們必須要去嚴重的去思考這樣子的一個方向所以整體的那個政策視角的話其實我在思考就是說其實資源分配應該要著重國家未來的發展"},{"start":7039.548,"end":7065.015,"text":"撥補其實它並不是一個改革所以這個部分的話就請大家去這個部分並不是而且撥補的話它的問題就是說它拿來撥補的這個錢它其實會排擠到其他的那個政策的需求那再來的話其實各國也一直在去思考就是調降這個所得替代率的這個方向一個滿重要的思考就在於說"},{"start":7066.295,"end":7086.6,"text":"就是退休者他其實也是生活在當下的社會底下所以說他會是共同的需要去在社會環境底下去用比較相對合宜跟目前在工作人口群的薪資水準等等的去做一個充分的考量"},{"start":7087.66,"end":7104.001,"text":"所以如果回應到在這個基本的前提底下去回應到今天要討論的提綱這三題的話其實調降所的替代率的這個必要性跟合理性就這個第一個提出的問題就是考量這個基層公務員人員的訴求其實我在過去的這個"},{"start":7104.942,"end":7119.447,"text":"這個討論的時候其實我提到說如果是討論如果是考量基層公務人員他相對較低的薪資所帶來的比較低的這個年金給付的話其實會需要去思考的是提高就是他的那個"},{"start":7120.487,"end":7141.295,"text":"最低給付金額的門檻所以這個部分的話其實過去我不斷地去強調說這樣子的一個做法或許是對應這個問題的一個方式所以說在目的跟方法上面的這個調整的方式是需要去思考的就這個目前坦白說就世界各國的這個調整趨勢的話"},{"start":7144.44,"end":7158.289,"text":"甚至像瑞典其實他職業年金是會目標是往下砍到40%那國際勞動組織他的標準大概是在45%左右所以說如果就目前的公共救護人員保險假設說這兩個部分都可以拿到的話公共救護人員保險他的給付率45.5%"},{"start":7159.93,"end":7170.655,"text":"或是在之前的個人張物質調整之後52的幾負率然後再加上目前即便說往下砍 砍到62.5的話其實就國際之間的改革趨勢的話其實是還算一個還可滿足的條件"},{"start":7179.912,"end":7197.46,"text":"那再來的話月退休金的調整幅度其實我記得在2018年有提供給勞動部有一份報告書其實就談到說各國在退休金他如何去調整其中有談到這個就是依著物價調整的這個思考各國有各國的做法"},{"start":7202.302,"end":7223.4,"text":"當然也有所謂累積達到5%之後的調整台灣目前是屬於這一個但是當然如果說要考量到實質購買力的話其實各國會去做所謂的逐年調整的這件事情我會認為這個部分是我們在立法上面是可以去思考的但是歐陸各國的經驗也是就如同我剛剛在蠻重要前提談到因為"},{"start":7224.341,"end":7238.827,"text":"退休者他也是在這個社會裡面生活所以過往特別是在2010年代的時候那段時間歐陸國家有不少國家他依著他的物價去調降他的給付水準那個時候有蠻多的在報章雜誌上面的討論然後以及到2010年代尾聲那個時候才開始恢復往上調的這個部分的話其實有不少的討論再來的話要依什麼調整"},{"start":7251.613,"end":7273.678,"text":"物價指數當然會是照顧到各位退休者的實質購買力蠻重要的另外的話還有薪資的指數以及兩者的混合比例物價指數的話其實我們從台灣的物價指數我是截取2000年到2024年的物價指數的波動可以看到其實各國也會依據它不同類別的指數來加權"},{"start":7275.979,"end":7290.759,"text":"所以這個部分的話就提供給各位立法者來思考那以年金制度為攬財的誘因其實這個當然在職業年金上面的話這個會是還滿常見的那個人力資源管理思維但是就公部門體系來說的話"},{"start":7292.963,"end":7321.348,"text":"就是優秀人才如何定義以及說優秀人才就集中在公部門的這個部分的話是不是一個好的思維我會認為這個部分的話是需要去在政府體系或是立法者需要去進一步去思考的再來就會是那個薪資的結構我會認為是還滿重要的就是關鍵說能不能攬到這個好的人才因為薪資的這個水準它也會影響到後來的這個年金給付的這個水準"},{"start":7322.108,"end":7341.688,"text":"所以整體來說我之所以前面那一頁第一頁一直沒有改變是因為說其實結構性的改革才會是目前的關鍵才會是目前的關鍵所以說這句話雖然講得有點不得體就是說目前的話只是說在退休者的這些小限域性上面的增加但是相對來說的話其實"},{"start":7343.63,"end":7363.101,"text":"需要去考量更需要去考量是未來的國家發展的可能性所以結構性的修改對於整體的不管退休者或工作者來說的話會是一個比較好的思考的方向那結構性如何改革其實我也呼應到剛剛前輩有談到的基礎的以稅收的年金作為基礎保障"},{"start":7363.801,"end":7376.55,"text":"但是會需要有一個整合所有職業別的就像美國跟奧地利所做的這樣子的一個職業別年金的建制再來再加上個別職業別的職業年金 謝謝好 謝謝林教授接下來我們請張玉萌理事長發言"},{"start":7399.056,"end":7426.685,"text":"主席還有今天到場的專家學者老師們還有今天列席的官員大家早安我是世代共好協會的理事長張玉萌今天我在這邊想要是以青年的身份青年的角色對於近日的公立學校教職員退休資權撫恤條例也就是我們過去在談的公教教職員的年金改革方案"},{"start":7427.205,"end":7452.514,"text":"在現在希望可以再次的做一個改革的這個方向我希望可以發表一些不同的看法第一點我總共大概有三點的主張第一點是我仍然在現在的精算報告以及現在的所有的數據可以看到說中止所得替代率的逐年調降還是會嚴重的影響退伏基金永續性跟世代公平"},{"start":7453.214,"end":7471.126,"text":"第二點是議題很多但是月退休金的調整機制目前跟CPI也就是物價指數5%連動我仍然認為這是比較充實比較妥善的做法不應該恢復與在職人員的興奉做掛鉤"},{"start":7472.347,"end":7495.106,"text":"但是第三點我仍然認為說政府部門應該要履行承諾依精算的報告補足本來應該要足額的撥補才能真正的確保說目前基金的永續也的確是讓我們現在在校園現場辛苦的教職員跟政府之間才能有這個年金改革後續建立的信任"},{"start":7496.087,"end":7514.015,"text":"那第一個我想要談的剛剛提到的是所得替代率的逐年調降這是從2017到2018社會的確經過非常多的對立甚至是衝突所得到的結果那如果我們現在貿然的把這樣的制度再做修改"},{"start":7515.051,"end":7542.996,"text":"的確還是會對於永續性造成非常大的傷害以及在世代之間形成相對的剝奪或者是不正義目前有非常非常多的版本那我們剛剛看到會議的資料其實目前包含黨團跟委員提出的不同版本總共有10案其實主要都是在針對終止所得替代率的逐年調降也就是目前降低每年1.5%那這個目前對於年金改革的成果大家應該都清楚"},{"start":7543.696,"end":7569.712,"text":"只是如果我們目前在的確快要在改革到達尾聲的時候終止所得替代率的調降也許不會像是在當時改革準備要上路的時候甚至是我們要走回回頭路我也可以理解剛剛我們所提到這也許不是回頭路但是這的確也會對於目前造成非常大改革的成果造成非常大的衝擊第一個是退府基金的用慶年限當然我們"},{"start":7570.572,"end":7591.941,"text":"完全可以理解錢絕對不會從天上掉下來所以用慶的年限只要我們在現在做終止一定還是會提前回顧過去的成果其實最大最大的成果在年金改革的重要成果就是所得替代率的逐年跳降那這個也是當然減輕過去政府的財務赤字跟財務試算的壓力結果"},{"start":7594.682,"end":7613.307,"text":"這也是讓現在的基金可以永續運作最重要的一個改革依據那根據全序部的計算結果如果全序部的計算是正確的我們可以發現如果停止所得替代率的逐年調降規劃目前公教職員的退服基金會提早到民國129年就歸零"},{"start":7615.487,"end":7644.947,"text":"那如果我们目前要采取这样的措施我们应该要对于129年之后做一个更清楚的规划而不是在还没有规划之前我们就来调降那我也可以理解就算我们不调降的确我们用信的年限仍然存在是在131年或者是134年那在这之后要长什么样子这个我们也当然认为政府在现在二次的年金改革之后也应该要持续的来做精算跟说明"},{"start":7646.388,"end":7669.888,"text":"第二个这个将会影响到回流到基金的金额所以当今天如果我们停止所得替代率的调降大概会减少2700多亿回流到退付基金的经费那这一笔钱或者是这样的回流的经费势必会造成严重的冲击如果要做这样的调整那我也希望说不论是立法院或者是相关"},{"start":7670.689,"end":7681.958,"text":"主管機關所試算的結果也應該要清楚的來說明說如果透過這樣的持續的檢討跟再次的修正那到底這樣的衝擊要如何來處理"},{"start":7683.581,"end":7712.921,"text":"那再來我也要明確的指出說終止所得替代率的調降當然還是會讓世代之間有衝突或者是相對剝奪的感受2018年的年金改革最主要最重要我們也看到從這兩三週在立法院或者是司法法制的聯席的委員會其實看到非常多的關鍵字就是在降低世代的衝突達到世代的和解或者是世代可以如何一起走向未來但是如果我們現在"},{"start":7714.561,"end":7740.148,"text":"持续的或者是贸然的进行这样的修改并没有透过像是过去全国性的国事会议层级的讨论那是否就是让现在40岁上下的公教人员去面临在退休的时候基金破产的困境那这样的困境要如何可以说服这样的年轻世代可以持续的投入实际的教育现场"},{"start":7740.948,"end":7761.454,"text":"那剛剛我也認同非常多的教育先進所提到在現在教學現場面臨到非常非常多的困境那這樣的困境跟所得替代率的調降是不是有直接必然的衝突這個我實在也還是打上一個問號我們現在在校園現場的確看到在過去教師管教造成很多的衝突這個我們也都是承認的"},{"start":7761.934,"end":7791.23,"text":"但我们也过去讨论如何在亲师生可以一起在教育现场共同讨论的情况下我们也修正了不当管教或者是不适应教师退场的方法我们希望说这样的过程可以让教师也获得更好的保障不会在过去亲师生之间的冲突不断或者是大家对于制度的不信任所造成教师也仍然不论是有行政荒或者是逃离教学现场的这样的问题所以不当管教的确我们也修正了像是教师的退避权"},{"start":7791.85,"end":7805.616,"text":"或者是在緊急避難的時候教師仍然可以執行比較直接的這樣管教的權利我們在校士會議也持續的在調整持續的在檢討說是否每年會看到我們的數據或者是在教學現場"},{"start":7806.997,"end":7827.399,"text":"的確會造成師生的衝突那這樣是否有促進師生的溝通所以我們也增加了調和的機制那這些其實都是教育現場的改革我們仍然可以去持續的討論但是我認為不應該貿然的針對世代之間不同的退休制度來貿然做調整那第二個我想要談到的是剛剛"},{"start":7828.82,"end":7850.561,"text":"幾位先進也提到的跟CPI的調整其實這件事情我認為在67條裡面過去規範的的確我們跟現在的國民年金跟勞保的制度是有不同這個非常值得檢討但是檢討的機制跟CPI本身我認為應該要切開來討論什麼意思呢的確我們看到說過去這樣的正負5%的調整"},{"start":7852.603,"end":7878.455,"text":"那不只是正負5%CPI的調整他還要從行政院會同考試院那到立法院來做決議那這樣的制度的確跟勞保還有國民年金是不同的那這個機制本身我講的是機制從行政院還必須要會同考試院等機制應該要可以來檢視這我完全的認同但是我們的國民年金跟勞保也都是CPI的正負5%"},{"start":7879.295,"end":7895.447,"text":"如果我們把這樣的制度這樣的數字貿然的脫鉤我認為這個會造成不同職業別之間更大的衝突也就是為什麼我們在公教之間不去適用CPI正負5%的規定甚至稍微把它做降低那這甚至可能會造成"},{"start":7896.548,"end":7912.406,"text":"我們的調整只剩不減的問題所以我認為我們的正負5%這件事情在目前應該要來跟我們後續的調整機制來做不同的討論而不應該全部綁在一起一起做修法"},{"start":7913.027,"end":7939.84,"text":"第三個是我也要求說也認為說應該要要求說全序部應該還是要足而來做撥補所以這件事情我認為應該看起來是有共識的我們雖然在年金所得替代率是否要調降以及CPI並且行政院會同考試院的機制上面應該有一些分歧但是我也認為說全序部在這樣的精算結果之下仍然必須要持續的來做撥補才能確保基金的永續"},{"start":7940.76,"end":7958.301,"text":"無論是所得替代率或者是退服基金造成的財務缺口這些都始終存在雖然我們現在已經做了改革但是政府作為雇主我們也仍然看到這樣的缺口並沒有消失所以政府還是應該要必須很誠實的面對公教人員退休金所負起的這樣的責任"},{"start":7959.562,"end":7985.663,"text":"也因此所以這就是我為什麼想要提醒全序部必須要落實足而撥補的問題那這個也當然是在教育現場很多的老師等等的提出來的訴求才能確保基金的永續那以現在精算報告20年期為例的版本其實看到說必須要撥補194億那其實不論是用10年15年或者是20年的版本都應該要落實現在的試算結果進行足而撥補所以最後我想要"},{"start":7987.605,"end":8007.557,"text":"做一個結論就是多年來其實社會上面對於年金改革都從民間社會專家學者政府持續的對話溝通那我也很感謝今天有這樣的公聽會可以來有一個理性的討論那但是年金改革其實走了這樣子接近十年我們也應該要確保基金的永續來緩解世代衝突落實世代正義的精神謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":8017.815,"end":8028.28,"text":"對 我先做一個公聽會的程序預告那稍後在李燕秀委員發言完畢之後呢我們就先休息個五分鐘然後接下來再請各位專家學者繼續發言好 謝謝周偉今天排了一個這樣子的公聽會"},{"start":8034.795,"end":8055.794,"text":"提到整個國家的財政永續民進黨上任將近步入第十年常常最近這幾年在講說我們稅增超收其實國家的財政還不錯所以我們才有機會一個一個特別預算慢慢一個一個都編出來甚至是到明年我們國防的特別預算達到1.3兆"},{"start":8058.996,"end":8078.026,"text":"談到所有的基金其實我們國家大大小小的基金很多該檢討的早就也應該要檢討也不只是過去的軍公教的退伏相關的基金講到世代的正義其實過去在立法院不分朝野黨派"},{"start":8079.771,"end":8097.342,"text":"對於如何讓台灣少子化之後或現在通膨的問題年輕人可以過得更好包括在生育 在社宅的部分我們都不斷地在編列預算所以怎麼樣去減少世代的衝突絕對不是只有年金的改革"},{"start":8098.482,"end":8119.717,"text":"我們還有很多不同的工具不分朝野黨派我們都在努力讓我們年輕人無論是在勞動力生產力在生育率我們給予足夠的工具跟資源能讓國家更好那我非常遺憾就是說世代和解世代正義世代和解其實"},{"start":8121.628,"end":8140.33,"text":"過去國家最重要的軍工教我們如果沒有過去軍工教的付出哪有台灣這幾年中華民國這幾年這麼穩定的基礎無論是對於台灣整體的國防對於我們過去的十大建設還有我們過去奠定這麼多優秀的公務人員"},{"start":8141.551,"end":8160.484,"text":"這都是我們台灣的成就但是我覺得不應該一直不斷地用世代對立這幾個字來當我們年輕改革的導火線這撕裂的是整體國家民眾跟民眾之間的情感人民跟人民之間的情感更是增加更多的人民的對立"},{"start":8162.774,"end":8174.981,"text":"我剛已經提到在整體國家經濟起飛建設的那個年代軍工教是我們最可靠也是最堅實的力量也是我們最堅實的後盾但是我們在修法的過程當中不論是剛剛提到的我們當時一直有提到說包括隨著我們物價的調整我們應該沒幾年我們應該來再去做一些檢討什麼的"},{"start":8185.427,"end":8207.835,"text":"但是我非常遺憾的當時在立法院民進黨是用多數暴力本來應該放進去的條文最後該討論都變成是過場從106年教師年改立法到現在8年我們的消費我們的物價大漲了13.42%換句話說我們一所的替代率上限從107年起合計已經調降了9%"},{"start":8211.596,"end":8220.931,"text":"退休的教師更要承擔13.42%的通膨 合計已經超過兩成已經超過原定所得替代率在118年要下調15%的目標當時"},{"start":8227.08,"end":8243.494,"text":"政府對於教師的承諾不僅是我們當時用羞辱的方式在立法院通過了年改的法案那當時說通膨要檢討的其實我們也到最後法條也沒有通過"},{"start":8244.395,"end":8259.632,"text":"那当时的讨论也是过场式的讨论所以当时我们退休人员的退幅跟当时给予的时间因时值而减少就是说随着时间跟通膨我们当时本来认为说他每一年应该可以达到他至少"},{"start":8260.433,"end":8279.988,"text":"年老經濟可以照顧他他的所得還可以照顧他但是現在完全不是如此親愛軍公教的權益是非常大的軍公教自從進入職場以來薪資待遇退休都是依照政府給的規定軍公教他沒有協商權他更沒有成立工會的權利"},{"start":8281.977,"end":8294.754,"text":"他更沒有成立工會的權利我們都非常氣沒有發生的機會跟管道他是最沉默的一群當他們退休之後沒想到配合年改年改的過程當中被批評說他們是米蟲"},{"start":8297.257,"end":8312.369,"text":"並且很多的法條是對立法院多數的暴力來去做調整所以我非常期待這一次的修法是大家可以靜下心來去了解他們到底碰到哪些問題更何況這一次的停砍是停砍不是我們要多撥補多少的預算是我們現在我們整體的物價通膨的問題再加上過去砍了多少我們目前是希望停砍的狀況"},{"start":8326.199,"end":8342.511,"text":"並不是我們要多給多少錢所以真正的世代正義世代和解世代和平我們希望可以透過這一次修法大家可以更理性來做討論以上 謝謝好 謝謝李委員那我們就現在先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8682.981,"end":8686.863,"text":"我們現在再來繼續後續的會議我們首先先有請黃心香理事長發言對 不好意思我先處理一下會議時間那麼公聽會上午的會議時間繼續進行到所有人發言均結束為止接下來我們再請黃理事長發言"},{"start":8716.691,"end":8737.616,"text":"各位先進委員 大家好還有教育部的長官 大家好我是全國代理機代課教師產業工會的理事長黃祥賢今天要談的是從退休金看見現在台灣的教育現場困境今天是談退休就是後端人力那我們是前端人力也就是進入教育現場作為一個年輕人我想要跟大家分享為什麼現在的教師黃"},{"start":8741.426,"end":8765.14,"text":"好那這個是今天討論的重點在第三個年金改革後的人力結構的影響那我必須說這是議題三的部分那我但必須說我作為一個代理教師代理現場七年的時候看到的現況跟樣態現在的通膨問題嚴重因為年金改革導致教師荒我必須誠實的說可能有一點點脫鉤等一下"},{"start":8772.755,"end":8797.986,"text":"這個抱歉現在的教師荒不是教師荒是代理教師荒不是沒有人要當代理教沒有人要當老師是沒有人要當代理教師為什麼我可以這樣說呢這個是113年台北市的教師甄選聯他在招考的時候我記得是400個名額總共有3467個人到考也就是說當正式老師他還是還是有一族群的年輕教師他的到考率是996"},{"start":8799.807,"end":8820.39,"text":"所以他其實是很多人想要當正式教師好 這個是2020年校正考試從台北市 新北市 台南我們都可以看到都是倍數可能五倍 四倍的成長那南投縣跟台東縣我來自於南投南投今年開141個缺額有729個人報考所以這個是教師黃嗎我想要說的是其實是代理教師黃"},{"start":8821.411,"end":8843.218,"text":"那在今天來這個公聽會的時候我有做一些調查那這是填票的因為時間比較短填的那在這件事情修法的支持度社會的意見是分來分歧的但是比較多數的意見是以限制為明確的主流那再來提高退休金是否會排擠限制的經費超過50%的人認為有機會排擠的風險這是數據的呈現跟大家分享"},{"start":8850.339,"end":8866.995,"text":"再來教師荒跟年改的關係教師荒跟大部分的現場還是認為有相關但是關鍵的還是在現在的薪資跟待遇跟工作過勞的現況薪資是否反映工作的負荷九成的教師認為待遇不符合責任與期待再來"},{"start":8867.856,"end":8888.807,"text":"那反映教育現場的長期過勞跟低保守的問題我們的導師費一個月三千塊一天才不到一百塊高達86%的人認為應該要提升那當初說你修年改之後會做教育現場的改革我覺得我並沒有看到現在教育現場的改革跟狀態那這裡呼籲行政階級跟等等的階級都也是必須很常提升"},{"start":8890.468,"end":8912.061,"text":"再來提升教育職業的吸引力的關鍵有81%的人認為是要提高限職的待遇再來 教育的根本就是限職的穩定跟穩定性有一些調查數據就譜著我今天的立場其實是我覺得年金台改革當然需要討論但教育現場是不能等那缺的老師他需要補足的是什麼"},{"start":8913.281,"end":8937.876,"text":"教師荒的本質是代理教師荒是一年一聘的老師 沒有人要當正式教師人是有大量的人要報告那限職過低的話會導致人力的斷層跟教育品質的惡化代理教師薪資高 工時長定期化契約一年一聘的缺乏保障也就是說我今年工作可能明年就沒有工作那這樣造成人力結構的失衡結構的失衡 教育品質的影響那還有另外一個是也必須幫現場的正式教師發聲"},{"start":8939.017,"end":8943.242,"text":"他們長時間超時過勞像剛剛有一位老師他要趕回去學校上課因為他的小孩他的班級導師但他國家卻是給他三千塊去要他去負擔這樣子的責任"},{"start":8950.646,"end":8970.154,"text":"好 那作為一個三十幾歲的年輕人我是一個適婚適合要生育的女性我說實在的我不敢生也不太敢生也不太想生因為我在看到現在的教育現況的人力結構是用這樣的方式的時候那教育薪資沒有競爭力年輕人不投入導致教師房教育品質下降近年來的虐童案是"},{"start":8971.534,"end":8986.135,"text":"就是越來越多請問像我們有什麼勇氣讓年輕人敢生育那國家又拿什麼制度來保障已經生小孩的父母那就只會加劇我們的少子化好 這個是OECD它前陣子做的一個現場的報告其實"},{"start":8988.618,"end":9010.627,"text":"現場的教師年長的部分超過其實不只是台灣整個世界 全世界都在教師荒所以這個部分其實是台灣本來就應該要面對的困境OECD在去年的研究當中它發現就是在中學年段其實呈現過老化的趨勢那也就是各國如果不及時"},{"start":9011.627,"end":9025.443,"text":"不趕快投入教育人力的培育跟留任政策的話就會像台灣現在面臨嚴重的教育人力缺口教育人力缺教師方我從三年前創公會的時候就一直提起各縣市教師政府這個是不能忽視的問題"},{"start":9027.224,"end":9045.415,"text":"現場缺代理教師但請問一下代理教師有退休金嗎不好意思我家人擔任了二十幾年的代理教師他領的是勞退沒有代理教師的退休金就算了連隔年的工作權他明年有沒有工作權都還不確定因為他是定期發契約請問一下要怎麼解決代理教師荒"},{"start":9046.616,"end":9072.543,"text":"這是職業風險正式教師 代理教師正式教師因為有永久的職業但是薪資保障在台灣來說薪資保障是這樣我個人其實很想說年金改革當初處理的事情在未來的少子化你必須一定要用這種替代性能力的時候我覺得應該用替代性的薪資替代補償缺失的職業保障你就是要它一年免費定期契約的員工本來就應該比不定期契約員工的薪水還來得高"},{"start":9074.183,"end":9089.431,"text":"這個是OECD同一份報告它也有講到各國之間不是只有台灣有權代理教師的問題在非合格教師的話在北歐東歐都有出現這樣子的問題這個是一些細節所以整體顯現是培育留任的合格教師要是政策的挑戰"},{"start":9090.251,"end":9112.727,"text":"所以我在這裡說 其實也很感謝教育部跟立法院之前在修訂代教室聯繫諮詢的辦法的時候我們已經在超越了旁邊的國家在全球教師黃小指化的挑戰之下我們的教育體系必須建立一個完善且可持續性的替代性人力制度這是在前端的時候我們應該要去做的一部主現在正是教師部主的缺口"},{"start":9113.887,"end":9128.333,"text":"這個是一些政策的建議那在第四個的部分是我們從2023年台灣現在確實在前端人口做了很前端的教育人力做了很多的努力比如說全年病還有年資提敘可是今年開始走年資提敘之後還是足夠嗎不好意思在2025年也就是這個學期開學期還缺1429名1429名平均分散在現場的教室勞力就是繼續過勞你讓他繼續過勞他又不想當老師那就是一個惡性循環"},{"start":9140.978,"end":9165.169,"text":"那之前都是教團主動遊說跟甚至是透過憲法法庭的判決才拿到代理教室的年資體恤我這裡呼籲教育部其實應該要化被動為主動你應該要解決現場教師過勞的問題提升薪資好那我提出三點很簡單教育行政專職化這已經喊了N年前輩們也都一直在喊再來第二個提高終點費第三個就是我剛剛講的提待薪資的補償"},{"start":9166.229,"end":9183.785,"text":"好 最後再次強調不是教師荒是代理教師荒那我們該加強除了加強後端的人力的補償及至前端的人力是不是也應該要大家來面試因為我作為一個教師我覺得現在的教育現場其實是非常的困境那也有很多跟我同年齡的已經當爸媽的"},{"start":9186.707,"end":9203.154,"text":"家長們也是憂心忡忡的跟我聊過很像很多的這樣問題所以我其實很希望立法者或者是教育部等現場的大家可以一起關心代理教室的薪資跟還有整個人力結構我們怎麼樣把它的前中後期做得完善"},{"start":9203.914,"end":9225.619,"text":"好 對不起這一個圖可能會有一點點現場的對立但是我沒有要先接近現場的對立但這就是現實中為什麼會找不到代理教師因為在無證代理教師下面可以看到無證代理教師他是一年一聘也就是說他明年走了我們政府不用付任何的成本就是我講直接的我覺得政府是一個"},{"start":9227.679,"end":9242.47,"text":"滿沒道德的就是你用一年一聘去聘這些老師然後要他們去用自己的職涯用最精華的20歲到30歲的之間去奉獻教育可是你卻不用為了他的退休做任何補償那尤其是薪資來說"},{"start":9244.588,"end":9267.749,"text":"吳政代理教師也就是第三招的代理教師他一個月現在薪水是三萬八那請問一下我們台灣的教育現場的人力有什麼競爭力這是我很欣賞的一句話不要讓政黨利益超過國家利益不要讓短期利益超越長期利益不要讓少數人的利益犧牲多數人的利益我覺得台灣的教育需要大家共同努力的共同利益大家一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":9271.479,"end":9292.748,"text":"好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請李惠蘭理事長發言還沒講之前因為我講說因為當初以為是15分鐘所以就準備了15分鐘那現在的話可能比較少一點如果待會有第二輪的話也想能夠讓我講一下不好意思抱歉 當時的那個訊息有些錯誤還請理事長見諒那我們先請理事長發言 謝謝"},{"start":9296.823,"end":9316.772,"text":"召委各位與會的貴賓大家好我是台北市學校教育產業工會理事長李蕙蘭我們來看一下那個等一下暫停一下因為我用那個PPT好來時間先暫停現在是已經有PPT嗎是另外一份簡報嗎用拋棍GDF檔的話就是"},{"start":9328.637,"end":9348.712,"text":"應該這也是可以用那個用簡報筆控制的但是因為我都會有那個前後的出現沒關係如果是這樣的話我們就這樣子吧好 你們耽誤時間好 那沒關係那就這樣子因為比我當初設想的不一樣我這樣子就一下再出來可能畫面會比較亂一點沒關係"},{"start":9351.306,"end":9362.27,"text":"來 我們來看看軍公教人員本來是匆匆容容 有刃有餘但是自從退休金二砍之後現在是什麼匆匆忙忙 連滾帶爬綠色執政簡直是睜眼說瞎話"},{"start":9366.992,"end":9385.203,"text":"政府騙什麼騙啊 喊什麼歸零啊沒出息 每年都在喊歸零每年都在喊破產難道你對於精算報告還搞不清楚嗎在所謂的我們權需部跟教育部你們是專業的在那個位置上面你怎麼會搞不清楚尤其是我們台灣的退休金的制度呢"},{"start":9385.703,"end":9405.805,"text":"在這裡頭我要稍微講一下就是有關於剛才呢聽了很多在座的不管是委員或者是專家學者我這邊有幾點要稍微說一下因為我們剛才呢有個民進黨委員他提到馬英九先生馬英九總統我們就要講一下免得誤會了馬英九總統他當初的那個公務人員所得第一代律師下修75到80%"},{"start":9407.907,"end":9414.912,"text":"85字變成90字幾乎是本縫的兩倍把它從兩倍變成1.5倍不像我們這樣子本縫乘以2在砍什麼在砍所得替代率沒有這回事那1995年的N幾字基本上它是不會動那比較動得再大的是跨新舊制就像剛才我們那個我們代理的代理代課教室理事長講的那位老師他就是跨新舊制但是現在不會有這麼多"},{"start":9434.385,"end":9451.904,"text":"這第一個那第二個剛又談到黃國昌我們那個主席他都改革一定要將所得替代率調整到合理的水準這是黃國昌民眾黨主席講的話他提到的是合理的調整所以不要張冠李戴"},{"start":9452.805,"end":9464.136,"text":"最重要的我們常講說人在公門好休息我們任何在政府要做的是福國利民的政策不能夠因為你的政治算計冰冷的數據來對所有的軍工叫"},{"start":9468.9,"end":9497.15,"text":"警消人員去做砍伐那有一個數據要跟大家講一下因為我現在回應的就是前面幾位專家學者還有一些委員的那個那有關於公務人員30年118年是砍到4萬不是全區部長的5萬有關於教師的部分25年年資的教授118年之後是剩下4.7萬不是5.8萬不要亂講話每次都用精算報告胡說八道那接下來"},{"start":9504.936,"end":9520.372,"text":"在這頭我有五個要求還有最重要的是希望我們全體一起來反詐騙第一個要求停止付表3逐年遞減1.5%的退休金第二個要求政府依法撥補金額到退補基金第三個要求政府承擔你"},{"start":9521.013,"end":9536.244,"text":"雇主的責任 挹注資金到退伏基金裡面第四個 要求軍公教退休金比照現值調整並與勞保 國保 農保一致退休金CPI累計成長率核實調整那很多人講說你教師已經退休了為什麼要跟著調整呢但是我們知道勞保 國保 農保也是一樣他們也是退休啊也是一樣按照CPI累計成長來做核實調整"},{"start":9547.051,"end":9565.333,"text":"大家都可以為什麼對軍公教這麼樣的敵意第五個反詐騙資訊我們希望我們的政府停止操弄職業跟世代的對立好講到精算報告我們就看到監察院針對於在106年的精算報告裡面有很多的意見第一個他說了"},{"start":9566.494,"end":9586.19,"text":"大家用精算的报告来砍军公教他告诉你精算的结果是有错误的但是全序部跟教育部竟然没有察觉这是一种疏失接下来呢精算的评估结果不符合一般公认精算实务的准则全序部及教育部审查报告之过程有欠谨慎"},{"start":9587.031,"end":9592.073,"text":"確屬未妥接下來呢他也講過我們現在退休金改革只有兩個一個是減少退休金的給付還有有關於就是公保18%實際上真正名稱叫做公保年金但是現在大家都不知道其實對現在退休的軍公教來講我們的公保年金所謂的18%早就沒有了"},{"start":9607.759,"end":9635.544,"text":"你所得替代率一砍下去他叫公德款全部被政府沒收好在這邊一定要澄清一下那接下來呢在整個年改的過程裡面並沒有實際上的好好的那個溝通那我們在這裡頭有關於我們的監察院他講過使退休給付債權永成不確定狀態等其適用對象與範圍涵蓋了已退休或者是未退休之所有軍工賬違反法律不溯及以既往原則侵害公務人員的什麼財產權"},{"start":9636.744,"end":9658.35,"text":"當然大法官會議他否決了但是大家都一定要知道這本來就是一個常態那尤其呢我們民進黨政府最喜歡講到OECD但是我們知道任何一個國家它的條件都是不一樣這個都沒有去做好好的評估好這個呢其實基本上是一樣的我們在"},{"start":9660.27,"end":9683.982,"text":"好 我們第一個要求停止負表3逐年遞減1.5%在這裡頭剛才大家都提到了所以我們這個就不再多說因為時間不夠我們就把那個時間就是講過我就不再重複那在這裡頭呢因為我剛好參加節目有人就講說哎呀 你們退服就軍功教真好本奉誠意什麼本奉誠二在誠意年資所得替代率他每次講的都是年資誠意什麼"},{"start":9685.293,"end":9699.405,"text":"乘以兩倍但是他沒有講到的是那個什麼所得替代率要去砍但是呢我們限職教師的部分他其實也是用本分乘以二去砍他的那個每個月的提撥率所以每個月也是多繳錢給政府那我們來做那個勞工我們現在要對哪裡對著哪裡要給我一點時間因為這個地方右鍵對啊右鍵啊"},{"start":9710.894,"end":9738.972,"text":"沒錯 我一直在用右鍵啊但他應該看我太激動了 好那我們先來比較有關於限職教師以及勞工的部分我們把那個同樣星級的拿過來我們可以發覺到老師其實是每一個月繳兩筆錢那我們勞工實際上是繳一筆錢那勞退的部分 那個字體的部分不算但是我們來算看看其實限職教師跟同級的勞工朋友來講他實際上他繳的錢是那個勞工朋友的五到七倍"},{"start":9743.202,"end":9761.213,"text":"我這個你幫我操作好了我講說下一張好不好這個有點問題下一張就這個好那比較之後我們可以發覺到30年這是勞動部的資料這沒有造假30年年資所得替代率勞保加勞退是68的"},{"start":9762.794,"end":9779.839,"text":"那個所得替代率而且他是用什麼5年的平均但是呢軍公教他是什麼退伏基金他是到了30年他所得替代率只剩下52.5而且他還沒有算15年軍奉加上15年軍奉呢他還要再降個8到12%下一張下一張"},{"start":9788.482,"end":9811.294,"text":"第二个要求政府依法拨补这个拨补我们看每一个法条都告诉你拨补拨补拨补看到退福基金它如果有一些缺口的时候其实上第一个就是调整费率就是限制教师的部分第二个就是政府的拨补但是我们政府从精算报告到现在它所拨补的钱是零最后是由政府负责任下一张"},{"start":9812.645,"end":9826.565,"text":"那我們看依法履行撥補那如果因為你不撥補照理來講113 114你要撥補每一年521億但是因為你不撥補造成第九次的精算報告就變成818億這是誰的錯就是你政府的錯因為你沒有及時撥補下一張"},{"start":9828.499,"end":9851.264,"text":"好 民進黨說撥補就是改革所以勞工撥補連續6年撥補了3870億元是改革但是我們的老闆 我們的教育部 我們的全球部在幹什麼軍公教撥補呢叫做世代不公而且叫做掏空國庫 簡直是造謠因為軍公教的撥補從107年到現在原來退府基金的缺口的撥補金額是零 零 零跟大家講一聲 下一張"},{"start":9854.163,"end":9858.491,"text":"全書部沒有依法撥補金額呢現在又在恐嚇二基金要歸零說負債2.69兆我們來看一下這個錢是什麼"},{"start":9863.347,"end":9888.957,"text":"這個錢是什麼 叫做異住金 異住金是什麼那就是說砍了我們退休軍公教的錢放到退府基金裡面甚至於把84年N幾次這些退休的軍公教的錢也全部砍到什麼 退府基金裡面N幾次84年之前跟退府基金一點關係都沒有剛才我們的鳳群那個副理事長他有提到所以呢 這又是一個欺騙的手法還有那個障眼 下一張"},{"start":9890.947,"end":9918.965,"text":"好 真正的專業的政務官是如何解釋這個潛藏負債因為大家都在講潛藏負債多少多少實際上退府基金精算報告它告訴你說未來50年你可能面對這樣的問題是叫你去盡早去做去做措施不要遇到所謂最後所謂的用慶的部分但是我們政府用精算報告來主要的目的就是來恐嚇我們軍公教這是非常糟糕的所以在這裡頭呢我們的前輩都講第一個就是編列預算第二個就是調整費率潛藏"},{"start":9919.805,"end":9936.454,"text":"负债只是会计上的债务非实际的负债那我们来看叶长明之前的特普斯司长他就讲过从来没有一个国家是用高龄老人作为他的斗争虐杀的对象而且削减的台湾的退休金是30到40%够残忍的 下一张"},{"start":9938.206,"end":9949.581,"text":"那我們來看看第一個 大水庫 我們國家的財政很好啊現在都要普發現金啊對不對 哪裡沒有錢 你告訴我對不對 超送那麼多錢 都是老百姓的錢那個錢不是錢嗎 下一張"},{"start":9952.145,"end":9971.228,"text":"好 接下來第二個小水庫的部分也是一樣小水庫我們退伏基金在這近五年它所得投報率大概是9%以上所有的精算報告還有它的金額因為剛跳過去了也是賺的蠻多的錢大水庫 小水庫都有錢 你砍什麼砍"},{"start":9972.809,"end":9989.994,"text":"第三个要求政府承担雇主的责任把挹注资金到退股基金因为85年之后它叫做除金制但是现在我们的政府呢把65%的责任给弄掉了叫什么叫所有的军公照就是退休人员去负担你百分之百的责任好我们就退一步好了啦"},{"start":9991.147,"end":9997.173,"text":"你政府是不是也要按照儲金制的精神你要負擔那個65%35%我們退休軍工教去承擔就算了所以呢我們現在政府到挹注資金到那個下一張其實呢挹注到退補資金的金額是零好我們再往我們來看在這一張呢我們可以發覺到現值呢退休的他撥補了那個挹注到不是撥補講錯"},{"start":10015.731,"end":10025.193,"text":"就是砍老人的錢 挹注到退補基金裡面已經是2590.84億但是我們政府都沒有支付可以給我多少時間呢 下一張"},{"start":10027.045,"end":10036.115,"text":"那我們政府照理來講 你用儲金制你要負擔65%啊所以照理來講 你應該要挹注金額到那個退幅基金是4811.56億那我們軍工匠已經在這幾年呢已經把我們的錢被你砍了放到2590.84億"},{"start":10045.766,"end":10070.388,"text":"那你為什麼不把這個什麼金額 挹注到退福基金撥補也不撥補啦 挹注也不挹注啦咋那邊敢講幹話 就是講說什麼人家要那個破產歸零 真是很糟糕 下一張好 第四個要求軍公教退休金比照限制調整與勞工國保農保一致退休金隨CPI累計成長率何時調整這是大家都講過 我們就不再多說下一張"},{"start":10071.636,"end":10096.426,"text":"提供商對於有關於那個什麼公教人力結構和纜財之影響實際上大家都當鴕鳥都不講都不說實際上為什麼我們找不到老師軍人也不進來對不對那公務人員也不進來現在呢應屆畢業生考公職剩下兩成應屆畢業生考教師的剩下三成那就是什麼退休金的改革不是年改是退休金的改革下一張再下一張這個不講了好再下一張"},{"start":10101.297,"end":10105.686,"text":"好 所以我們講說我們要反詐騙停止政治的操弄"},{"start":10107.243,"end":10131.502,"text":"軍啊 事成如草芥 成事君如寇愁這就是我現在的心情所以我們呼籲公教的大家長 權需部 教育部第一個 停止提供錯誤的敘述誤導我們台灣的人民停止視聽媒體 網軍對軍公教的抹黑 栽贓跟甩鍋停止製造世代對立 停止製造職業別的對立我們希望呢 停止"},{"start":10133.223,"end":10155.954,"text":"逐年遞減1.5%退休金的誤導因為現在很多媒體都說 哎呀年改又回來了 我們不是年改回來我們這是停侃 先止血而已好 以上謝謝大家好 謝謝李惠蘭理事長因為剛剛那個操作的錯誤所以就是多給了一點點時間那接下來我們請黃景堂教授發言"},{"start":10164.852,"end":10181.283,"text":"主席 那麼各位委員 那麼各位先進 大家早安 大家好我有一個書面意見在這個大本的這個最後面那我想我接下來的發言就不照著這個我的書面 就是等有點比較"},{"start":10182.923,"end":10207.594,"text":"歸納式的來反映今天的一些意見但是跟我的書面意見是大致相近的就是說我們首先在談這個年金的高低月退休金的高低我們還是要講到一些憲法上的原則我們憲法上的原則應該就是如果依照德國法的比較就叫做供養原則它叫Alimentationsprinzip"},{"start":10208.234,"end":10224.547,"text":"那他簡單講就是說我們這個公務人員他這個他的功能上的定位他對我們這個整個國家的這個這個法律的執行那麼法律的執行就代表的說我們整個這個法律能夠運作這個國家的體制能夠能夠確實運作"},{"start":10228.85,"end":10251.579,"text":"而這個法治國能夠落實就代表著民主才能夠落實我們透過民主 透過選舉那麼選出議員 組成國會 制定法律這整個國家意志就是經由法律經由公務人員的執行所以它跟整個法治國跟整個民主國是息息相關的"},{"start":10252.299,"end":10273.668,"text":"甚至也可以說它是跟國家的競爭力尤其在巨變的時代它是具有無比的直接的關聯性這樣子所以就是說我們對於公務人員應該的鳳級的法制跟退休之前撫恤的法制"},{"start":10275.009,"end":10289.125,"text":"應該遵循所謂的供養原則是這樣子那麼德國法他甚至講說他這個保障要保障到說他能夠在法律上獨立性他在執法的時候他在執行公務的時候他沒有顧慮"},{"start":10290.086,"end":10315.703,"text":"因為他的經濟整個生活的方面包括他個人跟他的家屬是得到確保經濟上的獨立性那麼在法律上的獨立性那麼在經濟上獨立性那麼在社會的從而在社會的整個階層社會的互動上他也能夠保持他的獨立性那麼整個給付的水平要達到說跟相同的勞工訓練養成"},{"start":10319.165,"end":10336.577,"text":"只為這個相同的勞工階級能夠有這個最低的就更高一些的相應而且更高一些的而達到最低的生活舒適度他講到說他是這個樣子所以我們不能動不動就說我們剛剛有這個學者人家講說我們現在勞工他父親這個月齡2萬母親月齡1萬這個是這個如果我們要講說我們台灣當今中階勞工"},{"start":10347.745,"end":10368.339,"text":"中階勞工的薪資是不止這個數字就是說這講真的尤其當然不同的行業的中階勞工不同但是就是說以半導體業來講那他絕對不止這個我們這個全息部所講的這個公務人員現金月退休金平均50395公立學校教職員月退休金57900多"},{"start":10370.42,"end":10398.753,"text":"不只這個數字這樣子好 那麼當然就是說我們會有不同的講法比如說有的學者會認為說那這個是古代的這個來自這個普魯士時代的這個理念這個供養原則這個對公務員的定位跟所導出的這個供養原則但是我認為說這個我們就是要不要真正的去體認 去承認去接受說公務人員 公教人員具有無比的重要性對我們這個國家"},{"start":10400.995,"end":10415.053,"text":"這個民主原則法治原則這個落實國家競爭力等等這些好那麼接下來就是說那麼我們這個目前所提的這個立法委員們所提的這個不同的這個提案大致相近那有幾個這個方法"},{"start":10415.353,"end":10430.205,"text":"那我逐一來談第一個就是停止調降1.5%嘛對不對那從這個比如說從今年開始停止調降或是追溯到從去年開始停止調降那麼我認為這個也是合理的這個是可行是合理那理由就是說"},{"start":10432.026,"end":10445.376,"text":"就是說這個本來當時的三減的幅度就是蠻激烈的我講真的就是在2018年年改的時候那第二就是我們從現在來看的話就通膨指數上是讓人家這個感到憂心的"},{"start":10446.256,"end":10455.884,"text":"然後整個生活有諸多的不確定性比如說地緣政治 兩岸關係接下來整個公務員加薪4次總共是3加4加4加3 達到14%"},{"start":10465.812,"end":10490.697,"text":"他加薪是我在我的書面那我們這個月退休金的增加只有2次2加4所以等於是14%比6%所以是也有相當的這個差距這樣子那麼就是說如果我們就說不予以刪減的話不停止刪減還要繼續刪減個4年對不對那不得了在4年就6%嘛對不對那這整個就是說不是就不會再是全西部所講的50395就降到4以下了對不對"},{"start":10494.458,"end":10508.998,"text":"降到5以下大概4點多我覺得這個對公務人員來講是嚴峻的我這邊再提一個書面上有講到就是說我們普遍要接受說要知道說我們一個叫做不健康餘命這個概念"},{"start":10509.719,"end":10533.88,"text":"不健康營運這個概念這個達到8年這我們卓榮泰院長在一個會議上也講到所以這個大家就有壓力對不對那你如果說以現在來講這個50395公務人員平均這未來再假設再往下降那不得了你怎麼來因應這個不健康的8年營運那接下來講說第二種就是說"},{"start":10534.981,"end":10560.652,"text":"是不是水桶限職人員調薪這個我們有有一些委員是這樣提案的比如說傅坤吉 洪孟楷 林思敏委員那麼這個剛剛張志倫委員的犯也是這個樣子那我這邊講就是說水桶限職人員調薪呢德國就是這樣做我特別要講德國就是這樣做德國呢他第一個他第一個是規定他的這個公務人員退休資權撫恤法第七十條第一項"},{"start":10561.471,"end":10581.366,"text":"這個我書面還沒講到我今天早上查到的他就明白講這個月退後金的調整應該依據限職人員的縫級的調整而同一個時間點調整同一個時間點調整第二個就是說他們實際上怎麼調限職人員的薪水怎麼調"},{"start":10582.086,"end":10598.678,"text":"因為他們這個公務人員是不能是可以組公會我這邊修正了 他們可以組公會但他這個公會是比較有限度的公會他是不能罷工也沒有團體的協商權所以德國是怎麼公務人員怎麼加薪他是從公部門的契約禁用人員"},{"start":10599.378,"end":10627.839,"text":"因為契約禁用人員就是約聘約僱這些人那他們是可以組工會而且他們的工會是有談判權的然後是協商的這個那也可以罷工所以發動都是來自契約禁用的公務人員他們的工會去罷工然後就得到一個薪資談判的結論就加薪多少然後就說那麼這些契約禁用人員他們加多少那我們公務人員就加多少那接下來退休人員就加多少是一樣的數字"},{"start":10628.679,"end":10653.067,"text":"他們是因為公認的奉基法跟退休法都有所謂的法律保留原則所以都要經過修法所以你注意看德國動不動就兩三年或者怎麼樣就是在修法這個修法的時候第一個當然就是說比如有關退休金的這個部分第二個部分當然就是寄授整個談判的結果我這個書面上有引述一個最新的資料大家可以上網去看一看"},{"start":10653.727,"end":10680.555,"text":"那第二個就是說他有時候聯邦的這個立法者他會針對特殊的困難的情況比如說這個惡霧戰爭那麼能源的這個短期物價的上漲這個難以承受所以他特別再加一筆這個我們叫做特別的支付就是說這個所以他不是說只有照這個月退休金的調漲他要看需要那麼立法者可以來做一個必要的這個安排這樣子"},{"start":10681.255,"end":10699.107,"text":"那我這邊講完這個德國這個制度以後我特別要再講說我們立委有這樣的主張可以嗎但是我要呼籲說大家看一看今天我們程序部的這個書面意見他的第五點他第五點說限職待遇跟退休所得的本職完全不同"},{"start":10699.907,"end":10717.749,"text":"所以你不能說限職人員薪水調多少你這個月退休金要調多少這樣理解嗎就是說我們這個就是說這個詮釋部有這個意見這個意見是我們國民黨籍立委做這個提案要去嚴正答辯的"},{"start":10718.61,"end":10735.707,"text":"那我也許可以做這個做以下的思考就是說其實我們公務人員這個月退休金事實上是刪的蠻我認為刪的蠻徹底的因為如果說我們是以這個本放乘以二對不對然後在"},{"start":10736.508,"end":10752.839,"text":"再乘以你的服務年資然後再調降 依照調降的比例那麼我們以公務人員32年為例各位可以等一下看看我們黃耀輝教授的他裡面有一些表格數字就是說他最後3到最後是55.5"},{"start":10756.641,"end":10776.15,"text":"可以嗎 就是說它是本縫乘以55.5這個其實就是等於本縫 差不多對不對 理解嗎沒有多少 我跟各位講真的如果說還沒有依照這個物價指數來調整其實這樣沒有有序的依照這個物價指數那這個是很危險的"},{"start":10777.33,"end":10790.331,"text":"那反過來講我們縣子人員他的這個月薪是不錯他年領這個12個月加上這個考積甲等1.5加上年功奉頂到頂者一個月加上不休假獎金0.5所以他是領15個月"},{"start":10791.863,"end":10815.613,"text":"所以各位要知道這個以退休者他不是那麼的強勢他的這個所領的月退休金經過這個刪減之後那你說這個還不隨著一個有序的機制來調升或是說不隨著這個限制人員的調薪來做一個相應的增加那我覺得這個處境是嚴峻的我做以上的報告好 謝謝 謝謝黃教授"},{"start":10821.926,"end":10826.09,"text":"那接下來我們請賴中強召集人賴中強律師請發言"},{"start":10842.964,"end":10859.894,"text":"好 主席各位先進大概在幾天前工商時報有一個報導它是引用美國特許金融分析師協會所發布的全球退休金指數年度報告"},{"start":10860.794,"end":10881.922,"text":"根據這個報告他就48個國家的退休金制度進行評比荷蘭第一 列為A級比較優的還有賓島 丹麥 新加坡 以色列台灣是被列為C級跟中國 日本 南韓 越南 印尼 泰國一起被列為比較差的C級"},{"start":10884.083,"end":10910.601,"text":"所以就是整体评比的话国际评比对我国的退休年金是列在比较差的项目在三项指标中氏族性的得分最低显示退休给付对于保障老年基本生活仍有不足这个报告建议台湾如果要提升评级的话"},{"start":10911.991,"end":10929.101,"text":"可從加強對貧困長者的基本保障以及部分勞工退休金以定期給付形式發放隨壽命延長逐步提高退休年齡以及鼓勵高齡者持續參與勞動市場其中第一項是加強對貧困者"},{"start":10934.984,"end":10957.086,"text":"貧困長者的基本保障那為什麼國際評比會說台灣退休制度的保障老年基本生活仍有不足呢在前一波年改的時候立法院在相關的那個年改的退休法制裡面已經訂下年改的樓地板"},{"start":10957.927,"end":10982.783,"text":"最低保障金額就是年改不管怎麼砍怎麼改那個原則上要保障公務人員委任第一職等本奉最高級職本奉額與該職等一般公務人員專業加給合計數額這個名詞很長那目前就是三萬兩千一百六十元也就是年改不管再怎麼改公教人員原則上"},{"start":10984.264,"end":11012.198,"text":"他所領的年金金額不可以砍到三萬兩千一百六十元以下那會有個問題如果原本領的退休金在年改以前就是三萬兩千一百六十元以下呢照那個法律的規定你低於最低保障金額者那你可以繼續領18%的優惠傳款利率所以我們的公教年改已經保障了公務員最低"},{"start":11013.058,"end":11031.346,"text":"保障金額那為什麼這個國際評比還會說台灣對於保障老年基本生活仍有不足為什麼還會說要加強貧困者貧困長者的基本保障我們看基本保障是什麼"},{"start":11032.97,"end":11060.507,"text":"如果說是基本工資的話2026年起的基本工資是29500如果說是基本生活費的話財政部公布2024年每人基本生活費是一年21萬也就是相當於每月17500台北市2024年的最低生活費是每月19649那我們剛剛看的公教人員的最低"},{"start":11061.427,"end":11079.712,"text":"年改後的樓地板32160元都大於這些數字嗎那為什麼國際評比還說我國對於貧困長者的基本保障不足為什麼國際評比還說台灣對於保障老年基本生活仍有不足呢"},{"start":11080.772,"end":11104.955,"text":"這個答案到底是為什麼呢答案很簡單因為我國的老人不只是退休軍公教我們還有其他老人莫忘世上苦人多這是韓院長的這個就是名言那我們截至2024年底我國有65歲以上的老人大概448萬餘人 接近450萬"},{"start":11107.296,"end":11119.42,"text":"60萬的退休公教人員平均月退休金5萬多這還沒有加公教保的部分最低樓地板32,160元"},{"start":11122.541,"end":11148.84,"text":"但是除了退休公教人員以外勞工的部分 190萬的勞工勞保加勞退平均2萬550萬的農民 老農津貼8110150萬領國民年金的人平均每人每月國民年金只有3996元其中有40萬人依照國民年金的B4計算"},{"start":11149.861,"end":11170.813,"text":"勤領的金額每月只有1044元那你跟軍公教的樓地板三萬兩千筆的話這個實在是差距甚大整理而言截至2024年底我國65歲以上的人口"},{"start":11172.922,"end":11199.727,"text":"裡面448萬 接近450萬人裡面有大約一半 比一半還少一點點212萬5000人每月領的老人跟退休社會給付未達8000元這才是國際評比批評台灣退休制度保障老人基本生活仍有不足因加強對貧困者基本保障的原因"},{"start":11200.967,"end":11219.233,"text":"因此台灣經濟民主聯合主張應該要推動舊住行基礎年金滿65歲的國民原住民滿55歲每月領取各項老年或退休社會給付合計不滿老農津貼8110元之標準者"},{"start":11219.853,"end":11248.194,"text":"由國家補足其差額並納入居住期間與排付條款來回應國際評比對我國退休年金制度的批評這個古人有言不患寡而患不均我們是確實全國有200多萬的老人他的退休金根本領的各種"},{"start":11249.557,"end":11277.04,"text":"退休年金給付各種給付加起來每個月不到八千塊那這個真的是應該是政府應該要優先改善的地方那公教年改要再修先讓全國老人有八千那最後我要引誘當年推動老農年金戴政要委員他已經過世了以前呢"},{"start":11278.291,"end":11302.595,"text":"我們這個國家只有軍公教有退休年金什麼時候非軍公教開始有退休年金必須在台灣民主化後才開始有非軍公教的退休年金當時在推動的包括戴政耀這些很關心農民以及其他國民的"},{"start":11304.571,"end":11316.332,"text":"老人退休 經濟安全保障的人當時戴振耀委員他們在推這個制度的時候就這樣講他說 那個老伯 老兵"},{"start":11318.347,"end":11326.031,"text":"誰不做兵一世人 國家給他一個戰士授權證我們農民做世人 省產省一世人是不是誰不給我們三千塊的老農年金 老農津貼"},{"start":11339.258,"end":11357.226,"text":"現在同樣的我們這個國家每個人都很辛苦老師很辛苦公務員很辛苦但是在我們看到公教人員有三萬二的樓地板保障的時候想一想我們有兩百多萬的"},{"start":11359.262,"end":11384.194,"text":"領國民年金跟勞工年金這些人他們每個月的年金額居然不到八千塊然後國民年金一百五十萬人平均只有四千塊四十萬人國民年金逼市平均只有一千出頭"},{"start":11386.075,"end":11405.773,"text":"這真是悲慘世界是國家要優先解決的問題最後我講一點大家今天都有很多委屈公務員有委屈老師有委屈我不會說這個委屈不存在這些委屈我相信各位講的"},{"start":11407.253,"end":11427.139,"text":"都是真實的不管怎樣都是每個人真實的感受但是現在因為傅坤祺推動財政收支劃分法從中央挖了4000多億結果明年中央政府"},{"start":11430.277,"end":11457.876,"text":"總預算加上特別預算總共舉債4千億這個4千億已經瀕臨公共債務法15%的舉債上限所以我想各位談的問題都重要教育人員如何撥補公務員如何撥補要撥補第一個要讓國家有錢怎麼讓國家有錢就是把富坤級財政收支劃分法"},{"start":11458.436,"end":11474.67,"text":"那個四千多億把它還回來給國家也不是給國家我們就把那些錢拿來做各種社會福利的撥補以及社會福利的興辦這才是這個國家該走的路 謝謝好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請黃耀輝教授發言"},{"start":11489.747,"end":11497.096,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好時間有限 我就有話直說那個PowerPoint"},{"start":11500.903,"end":11520.017,"text":"我今天要講的重點就是公教年改已經造成重大傷害現在應該適可而止了我們對賴政府就希望他不要再雙標只要讓我們的公教退休制度跟勞保 勞退一致就很好了"},{"start":11523.299,"end":11543.754,"text":"107年的公教年改造成了重大傷害從這個畫面各位可以看到它主要是三降第一個降低替代率 十年降15%第二個就廢掉18%第三個就是把退休金的基準把它調降這個三降加上溯及既往"},{"start":11545.415,"end":11558.187,"text":"就是這副表1這是顯示的各位可以看到像這個退休金給予的標準它要就是用那個平均性"},{"start":11559.682,"end":11586.136,"text":"拉低它的平均薪资第二个就是对志愿退休人员从75至改成90至然后第三个就是替代率10年降15%从这个表各位看到它就是这个设计本身就是违反人性为什么呢因为人越老经济上越不安全的时候退休金它就砍得越多所以比如说看这个表的左边这个"},{"start":11587.577,"end":11594.185,"text":"這個左邊 你在65歲的時候退休的時候你的替代率從45%會降到你75歲的時候降到30%75歲你比60歲還要窮 還要弱的時候你的替代率又被降低了"},{"start":11608.622,"end":11617.949,"text":"教育部他自己就在上次年改三讀通過之後教育部在106年6月30號他就根據上述那個三將他去計算了一下對我們教師產生的衝擊這個表各位從這個表第一個就會看到他真的是看到"},{"start":11630.774,"end":11643.164,"text":"建股 重傷老師們扣減至少24%尤其是教授剛退休 像這個表各位可以看到105年2月1號退休的一個老師他任職35年的話"},{"start":11646.827,"end":11667.178,"text":"剛退休兩年 假設他是65歲兩年後他的退休金就被砍了21%到他75歲的時候 他就被砍到了37%教授是這樣子的情形我們再來看另外一個情形假設105年2月1號退休 任職30年的老師"},{"start":11670.768,"end":11693.156,"text":"也是退休才两年他就被砍了21%左右他75岁的时候他被砍了38%将近40%的退休金被砍了所以越老越弱的时候受伤越重10年后更老的时候被砍了到了38%再来看下一个表这也是教育部自己做的"},{"start":11694.281,"end":11697.224,"text":"一個任職25年假設他是105年7月1號退休他退休兩年他就被砍了15%退休10年之後他被砍了36%越老弱的越被砍得更兇更可怕的是這個民國假設一個人一個老老師"},{"start":11715.743,"end":11724.927,"text":"他85年就退休的時候他20年後的107年年改的時候他已經退休22年他是82歲的時候他的退休金突然就被砍了16%82歲一個老人非常需要錢那關財本就被砍了16%然後到他92歲的時候 10年後他的年 他的替代率不是 他的退休金又被再砍了23%所以這個真的是虐殺老人"},{"start":11745.436,"end":11767.211,"text":"我们再来看下一个也是一个很早以前就退休他刚当老师的时候薪资非常微薄所以才有18%然后这个三砍结果受及继往加上替代率递减这个就是违反人性各位可以看到像一个退休22年之后82岁的时候被砍了快20%到他92岁的快要死的时候他那个"},{"start":11772.555,"end":11791.005,"text":"就被砍了36%連遺族要領那個年金幾乎都領不到所以從這個教育部當初自己準備的資料我們就可以看到這個年改確實對公教人員尤其是教授產生很大的衝擊可是有人"},{"start":11794.602,"end":11807.287,"text":"很多那個綠尾 綠眉 還有那個綠嘴老師就在這個上面大做文章老師就說惡意的扭曲然後造成很多民眾無知的誤解認為說公教徒雖然被砍但是你每個月領很多錢勞工跟公教之間有職業不公的問題像剛才那個賴什麼的他就講了一些挑撥離間的話"},{"start":11818.951,"end":11820.792,"text":"他不講說你公務員繳了多少錢我才領這麼多所以我們接下來我就來用勞保跟公教保勞退跟公教退府這兩個制度做一個對比從勞保跟公保的對比各位可以看到左邊的資料"},{"start":11834.881,"end":11847.888,"text":"在保費分擔這部分勞保這部分個人勞工只要出20%雇主出70%政府跟勞工一點關係都沒有都還補助他10%可是公教保"},{"start":11850.029,"end":11855.351,"text":"公務員或老師個人要負擔35%他比勞工負擔28%還要多那作為雇主的政府是個慣老闆他只負擔65%然後我們不知道哪一個笨蛋全區不知道哪一個笨蛋就在我們的公保條例裡面他竟然講說這個政府出的錢叫做政府補助"},{"start":11874.917,"end":11897.294,"text":"難怪人家就說公教人員怎麼那麼後悔政府給你補助搞清楚你政府是雇主你相對於勞工的雇主他要負責70%你政府作為公教人員的雇主你只負責60%你還把他叫做補助所以這是很"},{"start":11898.014,"end":11918.995,"text":"所以請翁兆偉注意一下我們這個條文將來一定要把它改掉否則以後都被那些沒良心沒良知的那些政客就拿出來污衊公教人員然後再看一下投保薪資這部分現在勞保幾十年了他最高投保薪資就是十萬六不到但是"},{"start":11920.39,"end":11944.102,"text":"公教保 那保險人每月薪資他是成績是很高他最高的投保薪資是11萬左右然後那費率又比勞保高所以右邊的公教保他不管是費率 費機他的投保的薪資都比勞保高所以當然他領的幾乎當然就高再來看下一個勞退"},{"start":11953.321,"end":11981.814,"text":"又來問題了 暫停一下技術上的問題OK好 再來看這個勞退跟教師的退伏制度的比較也是一樣的問題左邊勞退是雇主負擔百分之百提拔6%但是我們教師退伏制度還是一樣政府只負擔65%它不是負擔像勞退的100%所以我們的政府佔了很大的便宜作為雇主然後"},{"start":11983.308,"end":12010.499,"text":"然後費積上那個教師的退幅是年功奉的薪額的乘以兩倍這個也相對於一般的勞工的工資更高他費積更高費率也是12到18%比勞退的6%還要高所以而且在給付方面勞退他還有保證收益但是我們教師退幅沒有"},{"start":12011.139,"end":12028.552,"text":"所以年改的這個做法其實是違反了上面講的說退伏基金政府要付最終最後支付保證責任然後就用這個莫名其妙虧損的理由來砍這個就顯然就是很不公平的處理所以我們在這個"},{"start":12030.213,"end":12056.848,"text":"政大風管系 王麗蓮跟黃洪志教授他們就拿公保跟勞工的退休的比較結果就發現說老保投保薪資費率較低所以他退休金給父當然較低真相是什麼呢 相同的投保薪資下老保的一本筆就是說他領回的給付除以他繳的保費是相對的高的各位可以看到上面這個紅色框框的裡面可以看到"},{"start":12057.188,"end":12077.699,"text":"一個勞保 投保薪資相同的他繳的保費可能是24萬左右但他領回的可以領到330萬所以那個投資報酬率或一本筆是14倍然後勞退 公扶退服制度只有不到10倍然後再看下面 另外情境幾下也是一樣勞退勞工的方面他的一本筆都是比"},{"start":12083.257,"end":12106.388,"text":"公教高而且年改之後公教的一本筆降得更多了所以從這些數字時間有限我就沒辦法詳細說明從這邊我們可以看到就是勞工務人員不管他從什麼角度來看他在職業部工方面是對勞工有利對公教人員是不利的然後我們再來看下面這個"},{"start":12111.944,"end":12123.033,"text":"所以這個圖給大家看到老保的財務缺口是非常的嚴重是我們公教的好幾倍而且年改之後公教的財務缺口已經明顯的下降然後老保"},{"start":12124.402,"end":12129.766,"text":"這幾年七年八年多沒有改革就造成了我們這個勞保這個錢償債務從過去三年就暴增了三兆已經到了13.6兆撥補了3871支延後破產到民國120年而已所以最後的結果我們可以看到勞保財務問題不但嚴重而且它世代不均它內部的世代不均問題更嚴重希望張理事長知道"},{"start":12149.801,"end":12175.676,"text":"特別注意一下像勞保你們很在乎的世代不久是在勞保的體系裡面更嚴重其實你在這方面也都發生然後結果就是什麼最需要改革的是勞保年金但是叫完破產公交財富大搞年改喊到建股叫完破產的勞保體系完全沒有改革所以你看到最後這個表就看到勞保120年就要破產了其他的所有的"},{"start":12176.776,"end":12181.298,"text":"退伏制度都是幾十年後才會破產難道現在要幫公教人員停砍替代率這有什麼不對所以最後"},{"start":12194.065,"end":12218.056,"text":"我提出幾點建議第一個就是我們的何沛山前勞動部長他就講政府撥補勞保負最終支付責任就是改革我們的教育部跟權序部你們不是來服務公教人員你們是幫賴政府幫民進黨政府去砍這個公教人員的福利這是什麼道理"},{"start":12218.576,"end":12243.507,"text":"你為什麼不幫公教人員澄清說你們是受到很多的誤會跟扭曲然後對於我們立法委員提出來的所謂停侃替代率這個部分你不但不講話你們還倒過來助紂為虐去說我們公教人員貪得無怨請你教育部"},{"start":12244.527,"end":12265.331,"text":"跟全序部請你們不要再得骨質疏鬆症這個要趕快去做改善不要那麼沒骨氣第二個就是替代率從113年起就應該做起了因為剛剛講過他就是違反人性的設計重傷越老越弱的公教人員然後再來就是綠委他很會誣蔑我們公教"},{"start":12269.352,"end":12289.904,"text":"現在真相他就講說我們這次要停侃年金會造成財政破產我用這個簡單的數字來看115年的中央政府最初的正式別的預算退幅給付支出只佔中央政府總支出的6%你的社會保險尤其是勞保就佔了20%國防支出佔了18%上面這兩個才是造成政府會破產的重大因素"},{"start":12297.228,"end":12320.103,"text":"輪不到我們公教委員那造成財政破產再看下面 我們賴總統最近老是對美國表態說要把我們國防編到GDP的5%照明年的GDP來算的話就是明年要編國防支出1.43兆在明年中央政府總預算的一半您給外邦不予加奴這是什麼心態"},{"start":12321.365,"end":12337.64,"text":"我們只要減少公教人員的福利的受損你寧可把錢送到國外二話都不說真正會造成破產的是你賴政府花錢無度把錢送到國外最後一點就是對 是麻煩請黃教授最後"},{"start":12339.301,"end":12341.384,"text":"最後一點就是物價上漲調整的部分我建議參考我們所得稅法所有的免稅和扣除額就是累積上漲多少你就調整多少就這樣子不要去搞那些GGY的數字什麼看國家經濟狀況 財政狀況"},{"start":12355.684,"end":12364.13,"text":"碰到我們這些沒骨氣的公務員全序部 教育部到時候過去就是這樣子那個物價上漲了10.3%年改以來物價上漲10.3%只調漲了這個退休給付6%就讓物價吃掉我們這個公教人員的退休金4.3%然後再把替代率加上去扣減的部分這個公教人員真的受傷得非常嚴重所以拜託我們這個翁委員或是藍白立院的黨團一起把這個"},{"start":12385.745,"end":12399.606,"text":"非常不合人性的這個退伏制度做一個很重大的改革 謝謝好 謝謝黃教授 語重心長好 那現在我們請賀承宏教授發言"},{"start":12411.896,"end":12440.621,"text":"主席好 各位委員好政府各位代表還有各位夥伴大家好 大家午安大家都知道跟這個機場陸路過不去是錯誤的請大家稍微包涵我今天是從一個在高等教育長期服務第一線觀察討論高等教育和高科技產業對於這個問題所受到的影響和看法修復人才競爭力其實我們需要"},{"start":12442.955,"end":12460.451,"text":"一個聰明的策略歷來談論人才策略做法很多我們如何從中間找到一個最聰明的這個是比較務實的我是應該對哪裡按還看前面但是我應該對哪裡按"},{"start":12464.928,"end":12481.665,"text":"人才是台灣唯一的競爭力我想這個不分藍綠應該是台灣的共識人才如果強台灣強人才弱台灣一定弱因為台灣並沒有顯著的有形的資源人才是台灣幾乎唯一可靠永續的資源"},{"start":12485.166,"end":12499.399,"text":"2019年這個問題在八年前就產業領袖有十幾位包括施政榮 鄭崇華 史青泰盧志願 林本堅 蔣尚義等等他們推出一個科研與高教革新方案"},{"start":12500.768,"end":12516.753,"text":"其中有幾個做法特別值得注意的是他們明確的提到主張設計高教教育人才特殊的年金點出了這件問題對於人才策略的關鍵重要性"},{"start":12519.048,"end":12544.414,"text":"在三年前國立大學校園協會大概50所國內所有的國立大學校園協會經過廣泛的討論也提出來提升高等教育國際競爭力最重要的要先修復大學教師的退休金何以見得為什麼產學界都對這件事情不約而同的有類似的共同的見解"},{"start":12545.41,"end":12571.87,"text":"因為大家都看到大學教師是一個特殊的族群他是國際爭取的流動資產一個國家可能會有優秀的軍事人才 政治人才但是不論是多傑出的將領 部長 官員都不可能被另外一個國家邀請去做將領 部長 官員但是大學教授是完全可能而且是經常在不斷的進行"},{"start":12574.594,"end":12603.626,"text":"特別是今天是知識經濟的時代它的生產要素的重要性已經逐漸超越資金和土地等等知識經濟的核心在大學因為大學是知識的遊景 知識的源泉創造新的知識 傳遞原有的知識這些人的核心是大學教授它的重要性在知識經濟是與日俱增也是國際在增強的重要資本"},{"start":12605.543,"end":12625.357,"text":"但是台灣的大學教授薪資大家都很清楚跟國際落差兩到四倍跟我們最近的香港呢他們領的一樣的數字但是港幣所以這是一個需要守護和吸引的流動資產是國家重要的人力資本"},{"start":12627.333,"end":12655.962,"text":"爭取師資之道大家都說築巢引鳳如何築巢呢人才的待遇就是這個築巢的核心我舉一個大家最熟知的世界最著名的科學家愛因斯坦他在醫生當中主要的專任工作移動過四次左右從瑞士 捷克 德國 美國蘇黎世聯邦理工學院柏林大學 普林斯頓"},{"start":12657.706,"end":12685.565,"text":"這些的確都是因為這些大學提供了好的潮讓愛因斯坦心動我也可以向各位報告今年諾貝爾獎的十二位得主做一個統計他們平均每一位都移動了1.3次左右只有少部分幾位中期醫生沒有更換過大學其他幾位都移動過甚至三次以上"},{"start":12687.011,"end":12713.023,"text":"大學對於爭取人才的確是承受巨大的壓力但是也充滿了機會人才待遇是什麼意思呢其實最主要的部分就是第一個薪資它是我把它稱為前段退休金是後段如同半導體的製程有前段有後段這個要整體來看任何一個成熟的人才他在考慮"},{"start":12715.083,"end":12732.25,"text":"工作待遇的時候絕對是整體的待遇來看的台灣的前段是很弱勢的那台灣的優勢在哪裡聰明的策略在這裡呈現它創造了後段的優勢"},{"start":12734.446,"end":12744.927,"text":"過去的成功經驗一樣是在前段不足後段較強的條件之下我們回顧80 90年代也是就是距今差不多40多年前"},{"start":12746.574,"end":12775.276,"text":"現在台灣跟美國教授的平均薪資落差三到四倍在那個時代依然如此並沒有更加的緩和但是台灣現在各大學的主力師資數千名差不多都是80到90年代那20年間大量回國所形成的這幾千名的師資培育了台灣30年來高科技產業的骨幹"},{"start":12777.03,"end":12802.28,"text":"護國神山裡面成千上萬的大小神仙都是這20年大學延攬的師資所培育的成果台積電90%以上的經理以上都是這個時期國內大學所培養的人才兩個比較代表性的例子台積電Arizona的CEO是80年代末期大學畢業生"},{"start":12804.161,"end":12829.029,"text":"大立光多年的技術長是90年代初期的學士班和碩士班做個廣告這兩位都是清華畢業生這個策略為什麼會成功一樣的薪資落差為什麼四五十年前仍然可以吸引幾千名學人回國呢人才裡面有兩種有一種會追逐"},{"start":12830.754,"end":12855.151,"text":"短期的高薪有一種會看重長期的穩定加上老年的保障越是有遠見 越聰明的人才他絕不會只看眼前他一定會看到人生的最後這是人才為什麼會因為老年的保障 長期的穩定而超越了年輕時候高薪的考慮做的選擇"},{"start":12857.253,"end":12882.487,"text":"同時如果有一個機制能夠讓這些人一旦入朝五年十年就讓他不再離朝那這個機制就很厲害後段的優勢的機制簡單的來說第一個部分就是延遲給付這是文言文白話文就是說把前段的薪資呢挪到他退休以後再給他"},{"start":12885.038,"end":12903.227,"text":"如果我們比較公立大學教師薪資如果我們要做最低限度一倍的落差補足以台灣15000到19000名公立大學師資來說至少需要每年150億以上的預算這個顯然是做不到的事情"},{"start":12904.793,"end":12919.845,"text":"但是如果我們修復公立大學教室的退休金以過去的數字來看不到40億就可以實現而第二種做法在過去80年代到90年代證明它有相當的成效第一種做法到現在遙遙無期"},{"start":12923.479,"end":12945.067,"text":"而這個原因是因為落差這麼大的原因因為使用退休金特別是月退休金的公立大學教師人數大約只有一萬人就從他退休之後到他離世而公立大學在職的人數呢剛才說一萬五千到一萬九千人所以事實上有很多人在中間"},{"start":12946.656,"end":12975.454,"text":"掉對了 脫對了他就不再加入這個退休金的給付行列第二個事情是我們在退休金修復金額的部分只有幾萬元相對於薪資如果要大幅提升必須要產生十萬元左右這種數量級這個兩者共同造成了效益上面的差別所以政府的財政負擔在這兩種選擇之下你可以看得出來哪一個是聰明的做法"},{"start":12976.772,"end":12995.138,"text":"後段的優勢 它隱藏的機制還有叫做履約獎勵在香港你可以看見通常五年一聘在五年期滿的時候它會再給予一個明顯的履約獎勵因此如果你做到三年 四年你會自然地做到五年"},{"start":12996.55,"end":13020.288,"text":"那台湾是什么意思呢我们的退休金等于是一个20年的履约奖励你一旦做了10年15年之后你不会再离开了因为你再离开实在是很愚笨的因此人才久任教学凡是教过书的都知道教学的经验非常重要研究的经验非常重要"},{"start":13022.352,"end":13048.232,"text":"因此前後段的效益比較從財務上面來看剛才我們看到是每年相距100億以上而產生的效果前者不確定後者已經證明有效過去的成功經驗的確創造了30年來高效益的高教以及護國高科技產業有沒有其他拼前段薪資的策略"},{"start":13049.502,"end":13064.019,"text":"教育部很努力提出了一些包括全面加薪學術加給等等這些在整體薪資裡面大概都只有幾個Percent績效不清楚不知道有多少人才因此而被吸引彈性薪資有比較顯著"},{"start":13065.581,"end":13085.486,"text":"少部分的教師得到但是它不是一個長期的solution因為彈性薪資的預算來自於特別預算特別預算是曾經的確中斷停止過的所以人才不會因為某些時刻存在的彈性薪資而受吸引他要看到的是長期的薪資的結構性的承諾"},{"start":13087.646,"end":13111.668,"text":"高新的專案玉山學者它的確一口氣拉到國際水準但是它的數量非常少而且大家可以看到大樹根深很難移動通常都只有短期的分時的停留局部強化頂尖但是很少看見能夠久任因為滿了三年六年之後就難以為繼台灣的策略是什麼"},{"start":13112.717,"end":13138.193,"text":"显然应该要前后段搭配长短互补绝对不能放弃一边最后我们做一个结语大学的人才策略它不是只关乎大学甚至一部分退休人之后的生活问题它是有关于高科技产业兴衰有关于国家永续的国际性的人才流动的问题"},{"start":13140.259,"end":13163.738,"text":"事實上高教的人才已經被國際武器化他成為國家的戰略資源如果國家不做一個重要的選擇跟部署而且在有限的財力之下我們要用在國防 要用在社福 要用在軍艦 要用在醫療怎麼樣選擇一個聰明的策略做最有效益的戰略部署這個才是今天議題的核心"},{"start":13166.969,"end":13182.836,"text":"過去的經驗證明前段輕後段加重是CP值最高的策略常常覺得人類的愚昧是來自於對歷史的遺忘和健忘最後 最後一張"},{"start":13185.235,"end":13201.412,"text":"2017年7月11日應該就是在年改的前後幾位大學校長曾經和政府最高層領導人見面討論這個問題這位最高領導人說大學教授是年金改革的犧牲品這幾個字沒有改造"},{"start":13203.393,"end":13219.076,"text":"我想在當時政府要推事關幾千億的年金改革把事涉及到幾十億的大學教師退休金如同花草一般殘平可能有它的苦衷但是在今天新的國際政治經濟的局勢之下"},{"start":13220.337,"end":13242.033,"text":"應該要用大格局重新來省事這個問題在大學人才枯竭之後產業與國家一定跟著萎縮現在我們要做的就是修復被產掉的人才競爭力以上謝謝大家非常謝謝賀成校長接下來我們請今天的張綺楷張委員做公聽會的發言"},{"start":13259.792,"end":13285.751,"text":"謝謝小玲辦了這麼好的公聽會也謝謝這麼多專家寫者提供了這麼深刻的這個建議我今天要提出兩個水庫三個解決方案兩個水庫就是在2017年那時候為什麼要犧牲我們的軍工價要砍退休金因為他們說大水庫國家財政有困難第二個小水庫退府基金的錢不夠現在這兩個問題都解決了"},{"start":13290.205,"end":13318.771,"text":"我們的最近幾年的財政良好過去五年我們的稅收超增了兩兆在2017年推動年金改革的時候國家財政確實是困難的可是那時候的中央政府總預算的規模兩兆出頭現在我們快速膨脹到三兆了我們現在是一個有錢的國家不應該再犧牲我們的金工教人員第二個"},{"start":13319.835,"end":13344.75,"text":"小水庫以前的經營績效確實也不好以前大概2% 3%有時候還是負的大家知道嗎最近幾年 最近5年退府基金這個小水庫經營績效變好了過去5年平均超過9%你現在去看看那個小水庫裡面的這個水位105年它裡面的錢是5785億今年我剛去看了一下"},{"start":13349.401,"end":13373.283,"text":"1兆810億水位整整成長了快一倍所以國家財政變好了退伍基金的這個經營績效也變好了我覺得不應該再對不起我們的金工教人員犧牲也過多了好 接下來我要提出三個具體的解決方案"},{"start":13374.465,"end":13388.357,"text":"第一個 尊重當初的主管機關提出的改革方案那時候的主管機關是考試院我的恩師我台大政治系研究所的恩師黃警長 黃老師在現場"},{"start":13389.861,"end":13408.096,"text":"他是那時候的考試委員當初考試院跟全系部提出的改革方案是從所得替代率的80%開始每一年砍1%就到70%的時候會停然後講這個已經很嚴重了你一開始就被砍了20%後來每一年還要砍1%現在更嚴重是什麼"},{"start":13409.465,"end":13436.101,"text":"民進黨那時候殺紅了眼砍到刀刀劍骨他把80%又降到75多砍一開始就多了5%了而且把本來每一年的1.5砍成1.5所以大家可以算一下我們今年已經是年改的第7年了年改的第7年了5%多了5%再加6乘以5 9%我們已經被砍了14%了如果再加前面的20%"},{"start":13438.308,"end":13457.994,"text":"已經砍了34%了非常嚴重那回到考試院原來的版本他從八成每一年只有砍1%應該到70%就要停了大家很明顯的看得出來當初民進黨砍得太兇了你說尊重主管機關考試院的版本事實上也是蔡英文臨改會議的結論"},{"start":13460.782,"end":13484.204,"text":"尊重專業的話現在已經砍過頭了所以應該回過頭去尊重是不是要慎重考慮 填砍這是第一個解決方案第二個方案更簡單就比在勞工同樣在這個地方每次我在質詢每次有勞動部的部長來勞動部說撥補就是改革他們有三個地方我記得清空教應該都一樣"},{"start":13486.122,"end":13494.613,"text":"勞工沒有砍 到現在沒有砍 對不對第二個更重要的 他撥補很多最近這7年已經撥補超過5000億了今年撥補1100億 上個禮拜喔特別預算又多了100億 對不對"},{"start":13503.342,"end":13530.68,"text":"第三個更重要的 每次勞動部長都講啊我們不會破產 因為政府一定會負責到底只要跟對我們的公教人員對我們的這個教育人員請教育部間在場的同仁 權序部在場的同仁跟勞動部部長都學一點撥補就是改革 不只不要再砍該撥補的要撥補 而且要抬頭挺胸我們保障公教人員不會破產 政府負最大責任第三個解決方案 問他錢哪邊來"},{"start":13532.726,"end":13558.391,"text":"減少浪費啊我們的政府現在是歷年來114年最有錢的中央政府一年有三兆的預算可是浪費非常的多我講最近幾個案子光是上個禮拜通過的特別預算出現什麼國防部說國防部說編那個編那個長效的飲用水一瓶水120塊錢一共編了8億要去買水我們民眾黨說哇這個太離譜了"},{"start":13562.844,"end":13580.375,"text":"我們說砍2億後來國安部長自己講抱歉抱歉我們之前沒有房價我們自己砍4億4億就省下來了可以給公教人員給警校給軍公教說聯合作戰中心桌椅什麼設備要整修一張桌子250萬一張椅子5萬塊錢那是空間還是防彈"},{"start":13587.804,"end":13607.519,"text":"後來國防部連部長自己都拍謝他吃太多了國防部的錢一下子編太多了自己都吐出來了這個錢也都四處都砍了所以光是去上個禮拜通過這個三讀預算國防部編的預算裡面就省了51下來這51就可以給軍公教給公教人員為什麼會說他們的錢不夠"},{"start":13609.912,"end":13632.755,"text":"另外你看光電板弊案那麼多浪費那麼多錢 弊案那麼多還發生槍擊案那個錢只要整下來 錢怎麼會不夠呢所以我今天提出了三個解決方案另外我做幾個簡單的提醒我們現在公教之前坎德泰雄這個事情已經發生了後遺症了我們的公教我給大家看一下這個圖"},{"start":13634.454,"end":13653.884,"text":"我去統計了106年到113年各項公務員考試來報考的人大家知道多嚴重嗎大家看這個圖106年 就是年金改革之前一年來報考公務人員的47萬到了年金改革完之後到了去年113剩下29萬少了17萬"},{"start":13659.246,"end":13679.651,"text":"公務員是這樣子這不只傷害公務員的品質傷害也是國家 傷害是我們全民再來看教育 右邊這個你看那個像一個剖頭多嚴重在107年年金改革的時候你如果拿到教師證的你會進到這個職場去當老師的70%到了111年已經那個抖到什麼地方剩下57"},{"start":13687.935,"end":13713.294,"text":"就是你已經拿到老師的這個資格你都不一定再去教書了那不只傷害到老師啊 傷害到學生 對不對所以他後遺症已經出現了嘛傷害到公務員 傷害到老師也傷害到學生 傷害到整個社會了這個後遺症非常嚴重我們要趕快去補破網 把它補起來另外今天全系部在現場 我要提醒一下今年1月份的時候我在這邊大罵全系部部長說你是八十八點"},{"start":13715.438,"end":13743.384,"text":"因為他每次精算報告都亂搞他竟然那天對著全國的民眾講說退休的這個警消人員有八成領的錢平均起來是七萬六千塊錢我問你對手眼睛看到這個後來真相是什麼可以領到七萬六的不到千分之一一千個不到一個那今天讓我生氣的今天全市部的報告要怎麼下來你為什麼要去強調"},{"start":13746.836,"end":13771.358,"text":"約有31%的退休人員超過5萬5你應該是對那個一般可能領的更少人家去講啊你這個報告不是自拿嘴巴嗎你講31%你為什麼不講69%的呢你到底要凸顯什麼所以我剛在講第一個你們學一學人家勞動部好不好去爭取公務員跟教師應該有這個權利好不好我拜託一下請教育部的人員跟全系部抬頭挺胸"},{"start":13772.239,"end":13793.534,"text":"好 捍衛自己該有的權益最後我做一個很重要的提議事實上年金改革這是急著要再處理的是因為當初在年金改革的時候沒有算到高齡的CPI物價指數這個事情所以我們在1120的8月份開始要求高齡超過65歲的CPI是要我給大家看一下大家看一下一般的家庭是左邊這個"},{"start":13796.487,"end":13821.585,"text":"從 你看 從108年到113年如果算一般的家庭成長多少 9.91可是如果是高齡的高齡的這個很多長輩 因為退下來嘛可能醫療要很多啊 對不對他是多少 11.39結果他年紀越長越沒有錢所以這個是迫切的改革所以我做一個結論我們今天談的不是一個冰冷的數據"},{"start":13823.99,"end":13847.307,"text":"我們希望給我們的公教人員一個有尊嚴有保障的晚年因為我們肯定他們一輩子對我們國家的這個貢獻那今天我也提出三個解決方案好不好請大家好好去看一下減少浪費尊重主管機關而且只要像在照顧勞工一樣來照顧我們的公教人員所有問題都可以解決好 我們一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":13850.367,"end":13874.601,"text":"好 謝謝張綺凱委員那麼接下來我們就請因為所有的專家學者及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們接著就請政府機關代表發言那麼並請就所送書面資料以外的部分就做補充的說明那麼我們接下來會請教育部跟權序部的機關代表進行說明那其他的機關代表就是因為可以提供書面"},{"start":13875.117,"end":13887.107,"text":"的說明所以我們就不再請各位做現場的說明那麼接下來我們就請教育部次長請好 謝謝 請朱次長發言發言時間五分鐘為限 謝謝"},{"start":13901.244,"end":13922.562,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好今天奉邀列席過委員會召開公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例以下簡稱退伍條例部分條文修正草案公聽會僅針對所列的討論提綱就公立學校教職員部分提出說明 敬請參考"},{"start":13923.803,"end":13950.738,"text":"第一个讨论提纲一有关退福条例第三条修法之必要性合理性调降时机及财务影响部分目前退福条例相关制度吸引过去教职员退休制度存有月退休金起至的年龄偏低退休所得替代率过高以及退休金准备不足等问题原本于兼顾退休人员的权益以及社会整体资源的公平分配原则"},{"start":13953.158,"end":13978.764,"text":"審慎來規劃改革的方向來釐定合理的退休所的替代率倘退休所的替代率至113年1月1日起或至114年後停止逐年的調降教職員部分將使未來50年年改節省的經費挹注到退伍基金減少約1652億元導致退伍基金用盡的年度會在提前3到4年"},{"start":13979.564,"end":13997.313,"text":"對於基金的財務安全產生衝擊又目前已定有配合消費者物價指數而啟動的月退休金調整機制調整後的金額亦不受退休所的替代率上限的一個限制且現行的規定約有85"},{"start":14000.054,"end":14026.988,"text":"20%的退休教师实领的月退休金额所得超过5万元平均月资领所得约5.8万元原现行制度应足以适足地去保障退休生活第二 讨论提纲二有关月退休金调整机制之修法必要性调整条件及幅度等议题部分应退休给予调整需考量退休所得整体的合理性"},{"start":14028.289,"end":14046.328,"text":"與現值待遇之間的橫評及合理差距以及退伍基金財務安全及政府財政等因素不宜禁以消費者物價指數之累計成長率為調整比例或制定公式來調整又107年迄今已兩度調整月退休金"},{"start":14047.009,"end":14062.926,"text":"合計調整6%現行的制度應可提供適足的保障第三 討論提案3有關公教人員月退休金的逐年調減法案對公教人力的結構 攬裁的影響部分"},{"start":14064.605,"end":14092.583,"text":"教師年齡的變化趨勢涉底的層面廣泛並非退休制度單一原因造成為勞動年齡的提高為國家整體人口結構朝向高齡化及少子女化趨勢所致並非教育現場獨有的現象配合國家整體年金制度以及因應各職域面臨勞動力老化等問題教育部亦對於公立學校的教職員退休制度有相關調整的規定"},{"start":14093.784,"end":14108.891,"text":"調整的規劃對於高中以下教師辦理自願退休月退休金期之年齡已經與其他的教育人員做出適當的區隔又為了促進攬財本部以積極精進待遇相關檢討的措施針對"},{"start":14110.552,"end":14126.928,"text":"公立大專校院自107年起推動玉山計畫加碼彈性薪資以及提高教授的學術佳績10%等相關措施賦予113年將助理教授以上教師的學術研究費佳績調整15%"},{"start":14129.991,"end":14151.871,"text":"並再次擴大教師彈性性質的適用對象及補助額度等措施在高中以下的學校部分除了配合行政院通案調整軍公教人員待遇調整其心腸性質之外亦配合擴大支領特殊教育職務加級的對象以及調整知己的一個數額"},{"start":14153.012,"end":14164.856,"text":"未來教育部也會持續的精進公立學校教師限職新常性薪資的合理性跟調整的事項以上報告 近期各位委員及與會先進不吝指導 謝謝好 謝謝次長的報告我還是很希望次長能夠像是勞動部一樣保護多多維護我們教育人員的權益謝謝次長接下來我們請權敘部"},{"start":14184.137,"end":14185.989,"text":"退伏式市長鄭淑芬市長報告"},{"start":14196.338,"end":14222.784,"text":"趙吉仁還有與會的老師團體學者專家還有我們與會的機關代表大家好我就是剛剛董老師提到的那一位師長雖然因為今天剛好部裡面有有一個那個考試院的院會然後黃衛原之前是我們的考試院他應該知道所以部長今天真的沒辦法抽身過來"},{"start":14223.908,"end":14241.804,"text":"那為何我今天會在這裡呢其實剛剛今天我坐在底下一直聽到大家提到全序部這三個字我真的有一點坐如針氈但是我也要用我個人的經歷來跟大家分享這一路走來年輕改革的過程我想我來表達這個過程應該是會很貼切事實的"},{"start":14248.496,"end":14276.155,"text":"因為我在權需部已經工作26年這26年當中我有25年都是在我們退伏式工作我從事的都是退伏的業務這期間我經歷了大大小小的制度調整尤其是107年的改革是從頭參與到尾到法案的上路這樣子然後執行所以我的心情是一個什麼我是一個被改革者"},{"start":14277.321,"end":14300.606,"text":"我也是一個制度的執行者今天大家所提的對全區部的期待我都聽見了我真的聽見了那我首先也要就這個心情跟大家報告說以一個我們在部裡面長期累積下來工作的一個文官的人來說第一個我可能要聲明我們不會拿不實的資料不會拿不實的資料第二個我們從來也不會要污衊自己公務人員"},{"start":14306.206,"end":14328.21,"text":"我們也不會說這是貪得無厭的事情這絕對不是這樣的還有剛剛老師也有指正 全序部是笨蛋我聽了其實覺得其實一個工人要一路走到像我這樣子我覺得是很不容易因為像我們也是農家出身的人"},{"start":14328.837,"end":14345.929,"text":"然後沒有顯赫的學歷我沒有顯赫的家世背景我只是一路保持一個熱忱每天從中壢開車開一兩個小時到布里上班20年如一日很多人問我為什麼可以在這樣的工作不斷的可以去面對我只是保持一個工作熱情而已"},{"start":14346.684,"end":14350.386,"text":"然後呢一路因為我接觸到的退伍制度我們也知道我們需要讓制度有一個很好的未來所以才會有這些改革那在這裡我也想要先告訴大家說我希望我們之後在這一次後面的改革部裡面的想法雖然我們還是認為一定要繼續維持因為"},{"start":14367.711,"end":14391.645,"text":"我們的初衷理念是要讓基金能夠長遠那我們現在的人還沒退的也知道有一個基金在那裡它財務是穩固的我相信這個對我們也是一個提升士氣的地方所以這一次很開心的是大家沒有說我要回復年改的錢的樣子這是我們最安慰的一件事那委員們也可以"},{"start":14392.525,"end":14415.334,"text":"剛剛有委員提到我們後面就是要理性的來討論這些我們都願意那後面在資料呈現的部分剛剛委員有指教了我們一定核實呈現全貌讓大家一起來看這是技術上我覺得我們一定可以做到這樣那今天聽完了書面資料我就不多說了就是幾個點我可能跟大家一起報告一下大家很關注的這個撥補"},{"start":14418.224,"end":14442.627,"text":"撥補我們早在退補基金建制的時候就已經立法在基金管理條例第八條早就有撥補早就有撥補責任那過去為什麼面對撥補沒有用這個方式呢因為條例裡面有講是先調整提撥費率所以提撥費率我們也調了那撥補這件事情呢我們在法裡面"},{"start":14443.496,"end":14471.068,"text":"在這一次配合新人薪資大家都知道已經落實了在法裡面它是分兩個階段撥補的第一個階段先把新人不參加基金以後的這個缺口把它彌平所以這個也是剛剛有很多團體也希望我們一定要堅持我們真的有一直在爭取就是要用10年撥補的方案我們每一年概算都是用10年撥補的方案但是當然行政院他在他的考量裡面他"},{"start":14472.088,"end":14493.82,"text":"必須有斟酌國家財力這個我們一定一直會用十年撥補的方案而且希望這第一階段趕快把它撥補完畢之後能夠進入第二階段也就是我們剛剛很關注的我們原來就有了缺口我們原來就有了缺口是為什麼會有是因為我們一開始真的在基金設計是沒有足夠提撥的沒有足夠提撥那這個不足夠提撥的洞是很大"},{"start":14500.584,"end":14512.847,"text":"那這個一定要循序漸進來撥那這個部分我們一定也會看之後如果第一階段能完成第二階段我們也會建議財主機關能夠合時的來撥補那這個是撥補的部分那其他的像隨CPI調整這些確實最近大家都對這個很關注那我們部裡面的立場只是想因為畢竟這個CPI調整"},{"start":14529.505,"end":14544.51,"text":"在我們國內各個領域執域都是先採5%的那假設真的要調整我們也希望要做一次性的譬如說我們自己主管的公保他就是用也是用5%那我如果退休金先調了我公保這些都要聯動考慮的這些都要聯動考慮所以這個都可以調大家可以來就這個部分了"},{"start":14550.25,"end":14565.406,"text":"在做深入的討論那之後呢我們希望在主條的時候都可以大家真的理性然後好好的看待這個制度我們最重的目的以我當市長的角度來講我們真的只是為了要守護這個制度而已謝謝"},{"start":14569.265,"end":14587.211,"text":"非常謝謝司長的發言今天司長的發言讓我對退伏司全區部退伏司又有另外一個看法跟您的發言比全區部部長要來得更負責任而且更能夠還原真實那麼由此可見其實退伏基金當時在一開始設置的時候"},{"start":14589.512,"end":14613.3,"text":"沒有考慮到就是他一開始其實就有提撥不足額的這樣的一個困境那麼一直持續到現在我們政府其實每年都沒有提撥足額而這個問題看起來也不是跟考試院跟權序部有關更重要的主要是在於行政院的決定行政院他不負責任他作為公務人員的一個雇主他就是個壞老闆他不願意把這個該貼補該撥補的這個錢"},{"start":14616.141,"end":14626.834,"text":"然後逐年的到位所以以至於造成現在退伏基金的這樣一個虧損所以我希望就考試院可以拿出你們的勇氣你們作為憲政的權力機關你們應該要去跟行政院抗議必須要依照"},{"start":14633.749,"end":14649.537,"text":"考試院 詮釋部等等的已經要依法做足的撥補這樣才是正本清源之道因為所有的機關代表都已經發言完畢那其餘的列席機關的各機關代表還有沒有需要做補充說明的"},{"start":14650.902,"end":14676.842,"text":"好如果沒有補充說明的話那麼今天公聽會的發言就到此告一段落感謝所有與會者可以從不同的面向不同角度提供諸多寶貴的意見那今天各位所有的發言內容以及書面意見以及委員莊瑞雄委員所提出的書面資料都會列入記錄並且刊登公報之後會製作成為公聽會的報告送交本院"},{"start":14677.563,"end":14694.525,"text":"全體委員以及本日初列席的人員參考那麼本次的公聽會就到此結束再次感謝各位專家學者的歷齡還有感謝次長還有感謝司長以及各位機關成員的代表那麼我們今天的這個公聽會就圓滿結束在此謝謝大家好 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}