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謝謝主席 有請我們數位部林部長我們資安院林院長資安署蔡署長好 請蔡署長委員長安好 早"},{"start":21.249,"end":40.667,"text":"上次4月8號質詢你特別談到我們資安院發生內鬼的問題這件事情就是說在一個多月以前他們已經來跟我報告所以我都會掌握到這個狀況因為一開始我們也不曉得說那個牽涉的範圍到底是多大所以這個當然是在這個調查的過程當初是非常重要的"},{"start":41.448,"end":55.941,"text":"所以我希望你跟治安院好好去講一下這件事情不能說誰犯錯就抬下來其他沒事大家繼續我覺得絕對不可能這件事情我覺得有嚴重的管理問題要去處理管理商的問題絕對會處理這不管怎樣這個我們絕對會處理謝謝委員提醒好現在回來看我們4月8號你跟我這個詢答一個答案當時我們的院長林院長也站在旁邊了院長你可以上來一點"},{"start":68.26,"end":86.29,"text":"我看你支支吾吾的回看這影片我自己都快我覺得快笑出來了我真的很佩服你們請問一下部長你先答一下好了你當時就說4月8號問你嗎一個月之前大概3月你知道嗎然後到現在為止剪掉5月12號又衝進去"},{"start":89.952,"end":109.754,"text":"是我覺得這丟人真的丟人丟到世界去了搜索第二次那請問一下你查你現在查狀況怎麼樣查到哪個層級還要檢調進去抓人還是你自己知道那個跟委員報告一下並不是因為我沒有辦法所以才找那個調查局因為本來調查這種事情就是"},{"start":110.174,"end":133.165,"text":"最好除了自己內部調查以後我們是希望由調查局來調查這個是比較客觀的那該查得出來這樣有些事情這樣才查得出來那你行政的部分你到底做什麼來我們來看一下這明明就有很多的一個憲報然後有很多吹哨子很努力的在人群中一直舉手"},{"start":134.486,"end":159.435,"text":"相關的人員 今天你的署長上來 你是董事 你代表董事會待會問你喔 你不是署長喔你們董事到底幹了什麼事 到底懂不懂事 待會你要說明一下喔1月20號 吹哨子就向卓院長喔來舉報我們林院長處罰 是真的假的 不知道嘛我每次都講說是假的 你要把它還一下 清白嘛 對不對如果是真的話 我們還在裡面質詢什麼 什麼東西啊然後你們1月23號那個院長轉給你們喔 你們由你們數位部"},{"start":163.564,"end":178.681,"text":"回覆 當事人 這個案子喔 正在調查中你是不知道這個檢決案 調查如何 請說一下是你數位不回的嘛是 那個 呃你沒有看過那個案子嗎舉發那個 呃 處罰 你指的是這一條嗎"},{"start":183.221,"end":200.312,"text":"還是那個簡單來講內容就是舉發這件事情不是到副主任有可能是院長的一個指示林院長這個的部分你有沒有看到這個訊息過因為如果是照這個訊息來講因為是向卓院長舉發那通常這種舉發算是他檢舉我們這個"},{"start":204.535,"end":219.593,"text":"資安院的林院長那你們回覆立案調查中會有結果就回覆這個回覆沒有啊你們調查結果出來沒有還是誰知道你們誰在調查我們請那個資安署署長說明你們這個有收到這個案子有調查結束沒有"},{"start":220.494,"end":240.996,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關於檢舉院長的這個部分因為院長是一個管理者所以是交由董事長這邊來處理要董事長嗎對因為院長的事情你董事你們董事會三個月開一次在事發之後你們開過幾次董事會開過兩次其中三次董事會有沒有處理"},{"start":242.538,"end":265.295,"text":"這個部分是由不是冤枉就幫他申冤嘛如果有事實人家拿這麼多事實在裡面的話到底這個事實是不是真的你們有沒有討論這個事情有跟委員報告就是說因為院長的事情所以我們特別在董事會裡面我們請監察人組一個專案的調查小組做一個調查那也找外面的專家就是法律的專家跟學者一起參與這個調查小組做調查"},{"start":267.756,"end":288.763,"text":"調查結果之後有送給這個董事長這邊來所以你們那個李董事長是不是在護航我也不清楚啊你們覺得丟人還丟得不夠丟人丟得不夠很多事情你們自己如果發覺是事實你們還要說大家來查我然後後面真的查好了我相信早晚就事實會露出來嘛那部長再請教你"},{"start":290.023,"end":316.926,"text":"你上次請教你的時候你不知道事情的範圍你現在看起來還是沒有很清楚那當時林院長好像也答得不清楚並不是說我不清楚因為在調查的過程中當然有正反兩方的意見那我現在如果公開講這件事情的話這個對於這個檢調這個過程我們通常都會講檢調不公開嘛那我事實狀況都會掌握到那可以說的部分就是可以說不能說的部分我當然不能說啊否則我本身會違法是"},{"start":318.027,"end":334.408,"text":"那如果真的違法人還站在這邊我們來質詢還在跟他聊這個案情會不會有一天會變得很無聊啊我真的很擔心這個事情啊當5月12號第二次搜索向上發展已經有三個人涉案現在第四個人許副主任會不會向上延伸呢那我請問一下這個林恩達院長"},{"start":336.018,"end":353.956,"text":"院長我請問一下你覺得這個事情只有兩種發展的可能性比較有可能第一個是這三四個人自己偷偷做偷偷做就莫名其妙這個三四個人就串在一起了一起一心一德去做一件事情這是一種可能性第二種是根本是一個行政的指示"},{"start":354.657,"end":376.673,"text":"行政指示這個用社交工程來去攻擊我們自己的這個部分是一個行政指示就你知道這個許副主任這個上面有你們不管是院長副院長有沒有人指示透過這個郵件組織的漏洞來去做社交工程的一個練習你知道這個行政指示還他們自己幾個共謀"},{"start":379.718,"end":403.111,"text":"這是許到目前為止就是許副主任他的指示那這個部分當然就是目前我們的行政調查看到的那當然檢調有兩波的約談第一波的約談主要是根據我們的院內掌握的在伺服器上的數位足跡"},{"start":404.151,"end":421.44,"text":"去鎖定幾個對象做約談那這一波約談之後我們有做解聘的動作因為違反這個勞動契約裡面不得試探非己業務的機密第二波約談是根據檢調所掌握的這個"},{"start":428.984,"end":455.658,"text":"個人電腦跟手機上面的數位足跡那我們會找檢調來介入調查主要的原因也是在這裡因為我們沒有公權力去介入去調查同仁的個人電腦跟手機林議長請問一下你跟涉案的第一次涉案的彭組長彭敏軍組長你們本身之前熟不熟在你來資安院的時候之前熟不熟"},{"start":457.445,"end":466.74,"text":"在我們在在治安院裡面才變熟的那當然有很多他是你在治安院前身的治安卓越中心的同事對不對"},{"start":469.579,"end":488.919,"text":"對那有人說他是你的愛將但我沒證明這怎麼回事因為這個事情很奇怪嘛這個事情在你們治安院一般這種不管是用駭客去練習這是誰的工作是檢測中心的工作檢測中心的一個不同單位怎麼會交代這個前瞻中心這個組長"},{"start":492.092,"end":517.459,"text":"3月19號去年3月19號你有沒有開過一個會議委員可能把這個部分跟社交工程演練的部分跟這個漏洞的部分搞在一起你去年3月19號開會主管會議內部在業務討論中間有沒有討論到資安社交工程郵件供給跟線上報告社交工程你還記得這個會議嗎"},{"start":520.99,"end":544.321,"text":"他有跟我提說要做比較高強度的社交工程演練那我當時有同意你有同意嗎我同意當時彭敏軍主管跟你的報告的題目叫做資安院社交工程郵件攻擊分析在那邊報告完之後到底是誰准的啊你剛剛講說你有同意嘛所以你同意了這件事情嘛"},{"start":544.901,"end":559.306,"text":"你同意這件事情然後事情是不是就後續發生了到底是怎麼回事這跟後面的後續他們所開發的系統去找去用透過這個各種伺服器軟體所以你同意的是什麼"},{"start":559.986,"end":581.839,"text":"同意社交工程其實原本很多人搞不清楚什麼叫社交工程跟駭客什麼關係啊駭客啊覺得寫程式去攻擊太麻煩了而且這種陌生的東西大家現在都很警戒社交工程就用你的朋友好像我的上司寄一封信給我用你熟悉的人事物去騙比較快所以你用這種社交工程做優先攻擊你確認你也承認了3月19號你有同意"},{"start":584.921,"end":605.383,"text":"這件事情那同意這件事情只是你不知道說這個事情他們是這樣去做沒有他們就是攻擊跟你報告的郵件主機啊就攻擊啊攻擊把資料拿出來委員那個我只有同意社交工程演練沒有同意去利用漏洞這兩件事是獨立的"},{"start":606.184,"end":630.58,"text":"那他們後續有用到利用漏洞去抓院內的資料那個是另外一件事那是我沒有同意的我也不支持同種程度不是就在找哪裡可以有漏洞去攻擊嗎那所以內部會議的一個重點其實我講真的開會又不是你一個人一堆的資訊都傳出來了那也寄到了卓議院長的辦公室也給數位部了"},{"start":631.28,"end":649.067,"text":"那董事會也知道了因為在去年這件事情之後六月份 居合市調查報告這兩個人都離職了一個姓劉 一個姓劉寫一個報告詳細一清二楚3月19號發生什麼事結果 向上報董事會 董事會你們在幹什麼"},{"start":650.97,"end":679.315,"text":"你李董事長帶這些董事來做什麼向上報告了向院長向部裡面舉這個人要檢舉人舉手舉到這種地步啊他這邊請問一下你當時這麼多人知道包括這麼多人知道你郵件組織有漏洞有漏洞你不修復然後咧這個前瞻中心的彭靜主任根本他不是你們檢測中心的他被交辦這件事情來做一個演練這件事情齁七合四"},{"start":681.298,"end":701.9,"text":"兩位人員他的報告裡面都有描述得很清楚所以我來問你這件事情是因為你們的集合報告也寫得很清楚我不知道要怎麼說了那我再來看在第二次搜索的前一天我不知道你們是不是得到現報了你們開了一個馬上開一個緊急會議嘛"},{"start":704.329,"end":731.688,"text":"你們緊急會議都在講啦裡面內容是什麼緊急會議管理企業報第一114年3月就3月就是這19號嘛特殊社交工程演練專案起源本來是要確認院內的email server有沒有存在漏洞和辦理不符合演練目的你們自己都去檢討這件事喔抱歉我們當時你同意的向他們去演練不符合演練目的這是你們內部的一個"},{"start":733.549,"end":762.091,"text":"計劃表啊 文件啊6月25號你們自己要有答案嘛第二執行方式未符合既有標準流程全責全責分工嘛再來第三114年3月都在講這個特殊社交工程演練專案冒用主管同仁的名義供電子郵件使用違反員工資訊安全的責任其實你們在這個檢討報告就是說我們幹了違法的事情"},{"start":762.811,"end":774.458,"text":"我們又幹了違法的事情不管是私訊管理 個資法就是我們去年3月這場會議不管是你主導的會議居然允許讓這個事情去持續的發生你有沒有責任"},{"start":776.452,"end":798.413,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我有部分責任就是說我們這兩件事一個是說社交工程演練的發動必須要一定的程序那當時我沒有完全照那個程序所以有在集合式的檢討裡面說這個演練必須要一定的程序第二個是"},{"start":799.914,"end":823.622,"text":"剛剛委員講的這個漏洞是另外一件事就是說他們利用這個漏洞去做後續的各種抓群院內的資料這個是另外一件事那剛剛委員把這兩件事結合起來一起講就會變成混淆混淆了這是兩件不一樣的事所以你准許他的一個用社交工程去做一些這個不管是類似駭客的東西所以都不用監督"},{"start":824.122,"end":838.867,"text":"主要抱歉我交代了一件事情讓他去做但是他怎麼樣去做他怎麼打這麼用力我沒有叫他打這麼用力我的天啊你們後面他還持續在不用交代就不用監督你們不用持續監督"},{"start":839.747,"end":857.42,"text":"不用回報 你這個主管會議是不是一個月開一次他進度 誰來 誰來去監督啊欸你們治安院這樣搞的話我們就很沒有信心 你知道嗎很沒有信心董事會 董事會你代表我最後問你一下算了 你其他也不要講你們這個董事會到底在幹什麼你們現在人家這個資料是去年年中的計劃報告 去年啊就給你們董事會了你們董事會董事長在包屁是不是"},{"start":868.783,"end":892.373,"text":"不是啊 這整個的一個事情搞成這樣搞成這樣然後在去年3月份的一場會議剛剛院長說我也同意了但是社交工程那社交工程你問駭客是什麼嘛就透過什麼人脈然後去攻擊那攻擊是什麼你現在在怪他攻擊的太大力或者方式 莫名其妙請問一下你們在董事會有沒有討論過這個問題啊"},{"start":894.404,"end":922.046,"text":"跟委員報告這是5月11號不久前的一個報告是董事會裡面會針對這個集合式的這個集合的計劃跟集合結果會做一些相關的這些討論這個是會有的那至於說這個細節部分我想在董事會裡面不會談到這麼細那剛剛院長特別提到電子設計工程的這件事情來講整個過程中或許有些瑕疵不過院長的用心呢是希望說更仿真符合真實的狀況才會用到"},{"start":923.107,"end":943.086,"text":"院內同仁的一些名義來送這個社交工程郵件我想出發點還是希望說讓提高同仁在這個治安上面的一些相關警覺這個應該是檢測中心來做的為什麼他跳過給其他單位由彭主任來做你們都沒有去了解嗎所以在程序上剛剛院長也說明了就是說那個程序上的確是有一點點根據程序內來講的確是有點瑕疵好啦"},{"start":945.248,"end":961.941,"text":"就是一點點會發生一件大事部長最後我還是拜託你因為內部行政調查有它的急迫性是你司法去調查最終的一個可能結果一年兩年如果要靠這個這樣是不行的是好不好這部分我們希望你們內部有一些努力謝謝OK 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:38:58.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:02.146000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請數位部林部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:02.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:03.146000+08:00","text":"請數位部林部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:03.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:04.146000+08:00","text":"資安院林院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:02.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:05.167000+08:00","text":"請資安院林院長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:05.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:07.068000+08:00","text":"資安署蔡署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:07.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:07.628000+08:00","text":"請蔡署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:07.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:09.709000+08:00","text":"委員早安。好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:16.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:21.814000+08:00","text":"上次4月8號質詢你，特別談到資安院發生內鬼的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:21.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:39:48.839000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）","quality":0},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:39:48.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:12.085000+08:00","text":"現在回來看4月8號你對於我詢答給的答案，當時林院長也站在旁邊，院長可以上來一點，我看你支支吾吾的，我回看這個影片，我自己都快笑出來了，我真的很佩服你們。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:12.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:18.629000+08:00","text":"請問一下，部長，你先答一下好了，我4月8日問你，在1個月之前，大概3月，你知道嘛。是。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:19.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:33.722000+08:00","text":"到現在為止，檢調5月12日又衝進去，我覺得這真的丟人丟到世界去，搜索第二次，那請問一下，你現在查的狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:33.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:34.903000+08:00","text":"查到哪個層級？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:34.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:37.045000+08:00","text":"還要檢調進去抓人，還是你自己知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:38.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:56.560000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下，並不是因為我們沒有辦法，所以才找調查局，本來調查這種事情，自己內部調查以後，我們是希望由調查局來調查，這是比較客觀的，這樣有些事情才查得出來。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:56.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:40:58.401000+08:00","text":"那你行政的部分到底做了什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:40:58.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:16.609000+08:00","text":"來，我們來看一下，明明就有很多線報，然後有很多吹哨者很努力地在人群中一直舉手，今天你的署長上來，你是董事，你代表董事會，我待會會問你，你不是署長，你們董事到底幹了什麼事？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:16.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:17.549000+08:00","text":"到底懂不懂事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:17.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:18.429000+08:00","text":"待會你要說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:19.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:28.893000+08:00","text":"1月20日吹哨者就向卓院長舉報林院長觸法，這件事情是真的假的，不知道，我每次都說，如果是假的，要馬上還人家清白，對不對？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:28.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:32.374000+08:00","text":"如果是真的，我們還在那邊質詢什麼？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:32.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:32.854000+08:00","text":"什麼東西啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:33.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:41.788000+08:00","text":"然後1月23日院長轉給你們，由你們數位部回復當事人，這個案子正在調查中。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:42.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:43.610000+08:00","text":"你知不知道這個檢舉案？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:44.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:44.891000+08:00","text":"調查如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:45.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:47.774000+08:00","text":"請說一下。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:48.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:50.357000+08:00","text":"你數位部回的嘛。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:53.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:41:53.681000+08:00","text":"舉發觸法，你指的是這一條嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:41:58.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:00.363000+08:00","text":"還是那個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:01.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:10.189000+08:00","text":"舉發這件事情不是到副主任，有可能是院長的一個指示，林院長，這個部分，你有沒有看到這個訊息？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:11.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:14.832000+08:00","text":"如果是照這個訊息來講，因為是向卓院長舉發，通常這種舉發算是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:15.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:26.384000+08:00","text":"他檢舉資安院的林院長，你們回復立案調查中，有結果就回復，這個回復了沒有？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:27.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:28.426000+08:00","text":"你們調查結果出來了沒有？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:28.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:28.766000+08:00","text":"還是誰知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:29.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:29.627000+08:00","text":"你們誰在調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:30.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:31.890000+08:00","text":"我們請資安署署長來說明，好不好？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:31.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:34.573000+08:00","text":"你們有收到這個案子，調查結束了沒有？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:35.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:43.943000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關於檢舉院長這個部分，因為院長是一個管理者，所以是交由董事長來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:44.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:45.925000+08:00","text":"由董事長嘛？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:45.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:47.287000+08:00","text":"對，因為院長的事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:47.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:53.974000+08:00","text":"你們董事會3個月開一次會，在事發之後你們開過幾次董事會？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:53.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:54.414000+08:00","text":"開過三次，其中……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:55.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:55.976000+08:00","text":"董事會有沒有處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:57.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:58.098000+08:00","text":"這個部分是由……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:42:58.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:42:59.999000+08:00","text":"不是，如果是冤枉的，你就幫他伸冤嘛。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:00.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:04.723000+08:00","text":"如果有事實，人家拿這麼多事實在裡面的話，到底這個事實是不是真的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:05.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:06.744000+08:00","text":"有沒有討論這個事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:07.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:25.257000+08:00","text":"有，跟委員報告，因為是院長的事情，所以我們特別在董事會裡面，請監察人組一個專案的調查小組調查，也找外面的法律專家跟學者一起參與這個調查小組調查，調查結果之後有送給董事長來……","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:25.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:28.058000+08:00","text":"所以你們那個李董事長是不是在護航？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:28.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:29.078000+08:00","text":"我也不清楚啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:29.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:43.062000+08:00","text":"你們覺得丟人還丟得不夠，很多事情，你們自己如果發覺是事實，你們還要說大家來查我，然後會不會真的查好了……我相信早晚事實會露出來嘛。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:43.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:43:52.089000+08:00","text":"部長，再請教你，我上次請教你的時候，你不知道事情的範圍，現在看起來你還是沒有很清楚，當時林院長好像也答……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:43:53.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:11.345000+08:00","text":"並不是說我不清楚，因為在調查的過程中，當然有正反兩方的意見，我現在如果公開講這些事情的話，在檢調調查的過程中，我們通常都講偵查不公開，我事實狀況都有掌握到，可以說的部分就是可以說，不能說的部分我當然不能說，否則我本身會違法。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:11.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:18.274000+08:00","text":"是，如果真的違法的人還站在這邊，我們來質詢，還在跟他聊這個案情，會不會有一天會變得很無聊？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:18.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:19.555000+08:00","text":"我真的很擔心這個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:20.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:27.326000+08:00","text":"5月12日第二次搜索，向上發展，已經有三個人涉案，現在第四個人是許副主任，案情會不會向上延伸呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:27.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:29.408000+08:00","text":"那我請問一下林盈達院長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:31.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:45.773000+08:00","text":"院長，我請問一下，這個事情只有兩種發展的可能性，第一個是這三、四個人自己偷偷做，莫名其妙這三、四個人就串在一起了，一起一心一德去做一件事情，這也是一種可能性，他們是自發性的。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:47.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:44:54.060000+08:00","text":"第二種是這根本是一個行政的指示，行政指示用社交工程去攻擊我們自己的這個部分。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:44:55.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:08.430000+08:00","text":"就你所知，許副主任上面，不管是院長、副院長，有沒有人指示透過郵件主機的漏洞，去做社交工程的練習？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:08.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:11.673000+08:00","text":"你知道這是一個行政指示，還是他們幾個共謀？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:16.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:27.345000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，這是許副主任的指示，這是目前我們行政調查所看到的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:29.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:41.893000+08:00","text":"檢調有兩波約談，第一波約談主要是根據我們院內掌握在伺服器上的數位足跡，有鎖定幾個對象進行約談。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:42.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:54.259000+08:00","text":"這一波約談之後，我們有做出解聘的動作，因為他們違反勞動契約裡面不得試探非己業務的機密……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:54.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:45:55.259000+08:00","text":"林院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:45:54.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:09.267000+08:00","text":"第二波約談是根據檢調所掌握的個人電腦跟手機上面的數位足跡，我們會找檢調介入調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:09.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:19.792000+08:00","text":"主要的原因也是在這裡，因為我們沒有公權力介入，去調查同仁的個人電腦跟手機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:19.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:28.257000+08:00","text":"林院長，請問一下，你跟第一次涉案的彭敏君組長，你們本身之前熟不熟？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:28.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:30.638000+08:00","text":"在你來資安院的時候，之前熟不熟？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:32.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:35.270000+08:00","text":"我們在資安院裡面才變熟的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:35.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:44.579000+08:00","text":"那是你在資安院的前身──資安作業中心的同事，對不對？對。好。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:44.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:48.803000+08:00","text":"有人說他是你的愛將，但我沒有證明，是怎麼回事？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:49.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:46:57.732000+08:00","text":"因為這個事情很奇怪嘛，在你們資安院，一般這種用駭客去練習，這是誰的工作？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:46:57.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:03.919000+08:00","text":"是檢測中心的工作啊，一個不同的單位，怎麼會交代前瞻中心組長？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:08.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:11.413000+08:00","text":"去年3月19日，你有沒有開過一個會？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:11.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:18.375000+08:00","text":"委員可能把社交工程演練的部分跟漏洞的部分搞在一起。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:18.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:30.458000+08:00","text":"你去年3月19日開主管會議，內部在業務討論中間，有沒有討論到資安社交工程、郵件攻擊跟線上報告？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:32.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:32.459000+08:00","text":"你還記得這個會議嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:35.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:43.013000+08:00","text":"他有跟我提要做比較高強度的社交工程演練，我當時有同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:43.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:44.174000+08:00","text":"你有同意嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:44.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:44.854000+08:00","text":"我同意他進行。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:45.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:47:55.479000+08:00","text":"當時彭敏君主管跟你的報告的題目叫做「資安院社交工程、郵件攻擊分析」，報告完之後，到底是誰准的？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:47:55.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:02.522000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講你有同意，所以你同意了這件事情，你同意這件事情，這樣事情是不是後續就發生了？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:02.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:03.662000+08:00","text":"到底是怎麼回事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:04.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:13.265000+08:00","text":"這跟後續他們所開發的系統，透過各種伺服器軟體……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:13.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:14.306000+08:00","text":"所以你同意的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:14.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:15.807000+08:00","text":"同意社交工程？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:16.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:35.438000+08:00","text":"其實原本很多人搞不清楚什麼叫社交工程，跟駭客有什麼關係，駭客覺得寫程式去攻擊太麻煩了，而且這種陌生的東西大家現在都很警戒，社交工程就用你的朋友來寄送郵件，例如用我上司的身分寄一封信給我，用你熟悉的人事物去騙比較快，所以用這種社交工程做郵電攻擊。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:35.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:48:52.335000+08:00","text":"你確認，你也承認了3月19日你有同意這件事情，只是你不知道這個事情他們是這樣去做，他們就是攻擊你報告中說的郵件主機，我把資料拿出來。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:48:52.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:49:10.150000+08:00","text":"委員，我只有同意社交工程演練，沒有同意去利用漏洞，這兩件事是獨立的，他們後續有利用漏洞去抓院內的資料，那是另外一件事情，但是我沒有同意，我也不支持。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:49:10.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:49:14.573000+08:00","text":"社交工程裡面，某種程度不是就在找哪裡有漏洞可以去攻擊嗎？","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:49:16.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:49:44.067000+08:00","text":"其實我講真的，開會又不是只有你一個人，一堆訊息都傳出來，也寄到卓院長的辦公室，也給數位部了，董事會也知道了，因為在去年這件事情之後，6月份稽核室調查報告，這兩個人都離職了，一個姓柳，一個姓劉，寫一個報告，很詳細，一清二楚，3月19日發生什麼事，結果向上報董事會，董事會你們在幹什麼？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:49:46.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:49:48.230000+08:00","text":"李董事長帶這些董事在做什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:49:48.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:49:54.151000+08:00","text":"向上報告了，向院長報告，向部裡面檢舉，檢舉人舉手舉到這種地步。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:49:55.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:50:28.091000+08:00","text":"請問一下，當時這麼多人知道郵件主機有漏洞，有漏洞你不修復，然後這個前瞻中心的彭姓主任根本不是你們檢測中心的人，他被交辦這件事情，來做一個演練，這件事情稽核室兩位人員的報告裡面都描述得很清楚，所以我來問你這件事情，因為你們的稽核報告也寫得很清楚，我不知道要怎麼說。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:50:28.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:50:42.671000+08:00","text":"我們再來看，在第二次搜索的前一天，我不知道你們是不是得到線報，你們馬上開了一個緊急會議，你們緊急會議都這樣講，裡面的內容是什麼？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:50:42.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:51:09.350000+08:00","text":"緊急會議管理稽核報告說，114年3月19日，特殊社交工程演練專案起源，本來是要確認院內的email server有沒有存在漏洞而辦理，不符合演練目的，你們自己都去檢討，說很抱歉，當時你同意叫他們去演練，卻不符合演練的目的，這是你們內部的一個稽核表和文件。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:51:10.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:51:12.072000+08:00","text":"6月25日，你們自己要答案嘛。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:51:12.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:51:18.557000+08:00","text":"第二，執行當時為了符合既有標準流程權責分工。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:51:20.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:51:33.968000+08:00","text":"第三，114年3月都在講這個，特殊社交工程演練專案，冒用主管同仁的名義使用電子郵件，違反員工資訊安全的責任。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:51:34.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:51:49.438000+08:00","text":"其實你們在這個檢討報告裡就說你們幹了違法的事情，不管是資訊管理還是個資法，就說去年3月的這一場會議，你主導的會議，居然會允許這個事情持續發生，你有沒有責任？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:51:51.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:11.932000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個部分，我有部分責任，這兩件事，一個是社交工程演練的發動必須要有一定的程序，當時我沒有完全照那個程序，所以在稽核室的檢討裡面有說，這個演練必須要有一定的程序。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:13.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:31.700000+08:00","text":"第二個是，剛剛委員講的這個漏洞是另外一件事，也就是說，他們利用這個漏洞去做後續各種抓取院內的資料，這個是另外一件事，剛剛委員把這兩件事結合起來，一起講就會變成混淆，這是兩件不一樣的事。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:31.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:38.602000+08:00","text":"你准許他用社交工程去做一些類似駭客的東西，所以都不用監督？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:39.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:47.185000+08:00","text":"交代一件事情讓他去做，但是他怎麼樣去做、他怎麼打這麼用力，你就說：「我沒有叫他打這麼用力。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:47.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:48.125000+08:00","text":"」我的天啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:49.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:52.646000+08:00","text":"後面他持續在做，你們交代下去，不用監督啊？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:53.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:52:57.589000+08:00","text":"你們不用持續監督，他不用回報，這個主管會議是不是一個月開一次？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:52:58.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:00.611000+08:00","text":"進度誰來監督？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:01.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:04.334000+08:00","text":"你們資安院這樣搞的話，我們就很沒有信心，你知道嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:04.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:04.814000+08:00","text":"很沒有信心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:05.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:09.338000+08:00","text":"你代表董事會，我最後問一下，算了，其他也不要講了，你們這個董事會到底在幹什麼？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:09.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:12.400000+08:00","text":"現在這個資料是去年年中的稽核報告，去年就給你們董事會了，你們董事會、董事長在包庇是不是？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:24.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:38.109000+08:00","text":"這整個事情搞成這樣，然後在去年3月份的一場會議，剛剛院長說的，我也同意了，但是社交工程你問駭客是什麼嘛？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:38.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:42.191000+08:00","text":"就是透過人脈去攻擊，那攻擊什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:42.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:45.653000+08:00","text":"你現在怪他攻擊得太大力，或者方式不對，莫名其妙。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:46.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:47.353000+08:00","text":"請問一下，你們在董事會有沒有討論過這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林院長盈達","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:49.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:50.045000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:50.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:53:54.909000+08:00","text":"這是5月11日的報告，是不久前的報告。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:53:56.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:03.616000+08:00","text":"董事會裡面會針對稽核室的這個稽核計畫跟稽核結果，來做一些相關的討論，這個是會有的。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:04.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:07.379000+08:00","text":"至於細節的部分，我想在董事會裡面不會談到這麼細。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:07.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:27.036000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長也特別提到電子社交工程這件事情，整個過程中或許有一些瑕疵，不過院長的用心還是希望能更仿真，更符合真實的狀況，才會用院內同仁的名義送社交工程郵件，出發點還是希望提高同仁在使用資料上的警覺……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:27.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:31.280000+08:00","text":"這個業務應該是檢測中心來做，為什麼跳過他們給其他單位，由彭組長來做？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:31.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:32.961000+08:00","text":"你們都沒有去瞭解嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:33.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:37.806000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長也說明了，那個程序上的確是有一點點瑕疵。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:37.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:42.029000+08:00","text":"好啦，就是一點點的誤會發生一件大事。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:42.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:53.218000+08:00","text":"部長，最後我還是拜託你，因為內部的行政調查有其急迫性，司法去調查，最終結果可能要等一年、兩年，如果要靠這個，這樣是不行的，好不好？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:53.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:56.701000+08:00","text":"我們希望你們內部有一些努力，謝謝。是。OK。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:56.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T11:54:56.941000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:54:57.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:55:02.012429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝魯明哲委員，謝謝部長，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:55:02.312429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:55:05.169571+08:00","text":"接著請鍾佳濱委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:55:05.469571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:55:07.755286+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T11:55:08.055286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T11:55:11.198143+08:00","text":"接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}