{"error":false,"id":["169817"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169817,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169817","日期":"2026-06-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-03T13:54:06+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-03T13:59:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5329b193fad0412589423b99467ac5f15efbe1c17d8a01995afdee7ccfdb8031472f2de3f147acf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:54:06 - 13:59:54","會議時間":"2026-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：(6月3日上午9時起)\n一、審查「性別平等工作法」修正草案等100案。\n(一)委員范雲等17人擬具「性別平等工作法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「性別平等工作法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員萬美玲等35人擬具「性別平等工作法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「性別平等工作法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃健豪等21人擬具「性別平等工作法第二十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員黃健豪等21人擬具「性別平等工作法第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員李彥秀等22人擬具「性別平等工作法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員許智傑等25人擬具「性別平等工作法第二十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「性別平等工作法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「性別平等工作法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n二、審查「就業保險法」修正草案等88案。\n(一)委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「就業保險法第十條、第十一條及第十九條之三條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員范雲等17人擬具「就業保險法第十一條及第十九條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等22人擬具「就業保險法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「就業保險法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「就業保險法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「就業保險法第十條、第十一條及第十九條之三條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員林淑芬等23人擬具「就業保險法第十一條及第十九條之三條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「就業保險法第十九條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員涂權吉等16人擬具「就業保險法第十條、第十一條及第十九條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等18人擬具「就業保險法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】\n【第一（一○○）案及第二（八十八）案，如經復議則不予審查】\n(6月3日下午2時30分起)\n(6月3日若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開)\n一、繼續審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)。\n二、繼續審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心115年度預算書案。\n【6月3日、6月4日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":2.22471875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":7.523468750000001,"end":10.004093750000003,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":10.35846875,"end":10.99971875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":11.539718750000002,"end":54.18284375,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":54.60471875,"end":61.455968750000004,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":61.70909375,"end":62.282843750000005,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":62.85659375,"end":108.63846875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":108.63846875,"end":116.02971875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":116.41784375,"end":124.23096875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":124.63596875,"end":129.27659375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":129.68159375000002,"end":133.03971875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":133.54596875000001,"end":134.13659375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":134.27159375000002,"end":139.62096875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":140.22846875000002,"end":142.48971875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":142.48971875,"end":142.81034375000002,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":143.29971875,"end":157.00221875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":157.47471875000002,"end":168.83159375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":169.62471875,"end":178.02846875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":178.02846875,"end":218.52846875,"speaker_score":0.931},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":184.86284375000002,"end":184.91346875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":188.32221875000002,"end":188.69346875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":218.03909375,"end":218.74784375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":219.00096875000003,"end":225.29534375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":225.95346875,"end":228.73784375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":229.12596875000003,"end":232.87221875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":233.42909375000002,"end":236.55096875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":237.05721875,"end":239.16659375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":240.48284375000003,"end":240.90471875000003,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":241.20846875,"end":246.86159375000003,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":247.55346875,"end":250.27034375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":250.60784375000003,"end":251.23221875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":251.58659375000002,"end":255.21471875,"speaker_score":0.971},{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部長你務實的回答這個問題本行表是肯定但是你如果是鼓勵的話你要小心啦因為做政策宣傳的時候一向都話都講得很滿說減工時不減薪等等大家會以為這是一個"},{"start":271.159,"end":295.599,"text":"措施嘛大家到時候在法條討論的時候也一定會有相關的想法沒關係部長因為今天時間有限我也不耽誤你太多時間這本期馬上也會有相關的一個版本我是有試著寫一些大家在法案討論的時候大家就及時廣益來共同處理另外一個小問題相對於這個這個這個減工時不減薪這個事情是小問題就是你們講說婚嫁等等要一起延長對不對產假培養假有一些放在15條的修正案裡面但是婚嫁沒有放在裡面"},{"start":295.819,"end":323.842,"text":"你講婚嫁要延長但婚嫁走勞工請假規則啊對不對那勞工請假規則行政命令啊那你要不要提早宣布好消息先把它處理完確實婚嫁是在勞工請假規則裡面所以它不用去修對不用修法嘛對啊那所以我們的確現在也在思考這部分要提前要來做的時機點那當然這裡面也涉及到我們包括我們執行上面的系統也包括我們會跟地方政府然後也包括職貸津貼相對應的制度像職貸津貼的執行現在就在跟地方政府要正在討論之中"},{"start":324.462,"end":348.257,"text":"有沒有相關的一個時間表因為我想很多馬上要結婚的人就很期待這件事嘛對不對如果他相對門檻沒有這麼高的話因為這一百多人要討論一段時間啦對我們會盡快啦但是敵人隊裡面涉及到在執行端尤其是我們需要地方政府一起來跟我們合作執行那目前正在跟地方政府要談好你會後提供一下你預估的時間表相關的流程好不好我們希望可以早就看到好消息OK部長辛苦了謝謝謝謝牛喜廷委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:06+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:07+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，勞動部長有請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:07+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:08+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:08+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:09+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:06.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:15.194000+08:00","text":"部長辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:15.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:25.940000+08:00","text":"今天有一百多個提案，審起來應該會很辛苦，但我想少子女化這樣子的問題要解決，總是需要強而有力的政策措施嘛！","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:26.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:33.605000+08:00","text":"所以我想朝野大概難得有一致的共識，但有一些細節的部分，今天借用一點質詢的時間來跟部長做一下探討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:34.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:41.390000+08:00","text":"我大概看了賴總統公布的18項各式各樣的措施，大部分都納入了之後馬上會送來的院版草案嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:41.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:54:54.898000+08:00","text":"我想在野黨委員個別提案的版本其實也非常多，如何詳細地做一些整合，這不是我今天要討論的重點，在法案審查過程之中大家就來共同討論，總會有一個好的結果，我們也樂觀其成。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:54:55.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:55:50.042000+08:00","text":"但是有幾項是部裡面有宣布過的，就是沒有進入修法範圍的，第一個是有關於彈性工時，其實就是一件事，有關於企業，我們現在要鼓勵育兒，要減少工作時間，那麼減少工作時間當然就希望企業願意成全，那企業願意成全是你要給它誘因，所以給它誘因的時候就要有不減薪，當然是由政府來做補助，這邏輯上非常非常清楚，但我想有關彈性工時不減薪還有相關企業職代的補助，觀念其實都非常好，但是現在看起來在院版裡面並沒有相關草案的內容，表示說並沒有入法，我想請教一下部長在這個決策的考量，因為我是很擔心在沒有法源依據的情況之下，宣布要做彈性工時，然後予以薪資補貼，但會不會到了最後是只聞樓梯響，沒有辦法去做實行？不會。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:55:50.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:55:54.346000+08:00","text":"如果你覺得不會的話，可不可以清楚地說明理由，讓大家知道？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:55:55.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:03.705000+08:00","text":"好，跟委員說明，第一個，現在在性工法第十九條裡面確實有減工時這樣的條文，但是這一個減工時的條文其實是一個強制性的條文，但是不得請求薪資，這個條文當然還是在的，但是它有限制是小孩3歲以下或者是30人以上的企業，我們的確是做了考慮，因為其實各行業別工作樣態的差別很大，有一些行業有辦法做，有一些行業做起來的挑戰真的很高，所以如果今天我們是把整個方案要用一個一致性的、強制性的條文去處理的時候，可能會造成有很多的業別實際在企業運作上面會出現很大的困難，這是為什麼我們會在這個階段先用一個獎勵性的計畫去推動的原因，可是這個獎勵性的計畫我們在範圍上面是抓到有12歲的小孩，我們也沒有特別去限制企業的規模，包括像職代津貼的加給其實也沒有限制企業的規模。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:04.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:10.511000+08:00","text":"部長，我打斷你一下，對你剛剛講的，我大概可以理解你的意思，實務上在執行的時候，因為業界的樣態非常的廣嘛！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:11.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:20.115000+08:00","text":"所以你如果一個條文就定死，有些恐怕就沒有辦法執行，要考量執行端的問題，但既然它有業別適用的困難，那不就是跟這個政策本身產生一定的牴觸嗎？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:20.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:31.341000+08:00","text":"因為今天我們要推出這樣的政策，去有助於大家降低工時、鼓勵生育的時候，如果因為實務上在部分業別有適用困難，然後到最後寫得不清楚，它適用困難這個問題並不會解決嘛！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:31.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:35.824000+08:00","text":"就還是會有部分業別到時候就不引用，那是不是對這群人來講就變相吃虧？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:36.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:43.690000+08:00","text":"就像剛剛劉建國委員講的，有雙薪、有些狀況特殊，就造成實際上的歧視跟不對等的待遇，這一點部長要怎麼處理呢？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:43.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:48.914000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們必須要承認確實不同的工作樣態還是會有差異。是的。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：我想我們的工作是","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:52.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:57:58.681000+08:00","text":"第一個，那個小時的工資我們全額補助；第二個，我們甚至還有職代上面加給津貼的補助。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：我想我們的工作是","start":"2026-06-03T13:57:59.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:58:15.776000+08:00","text":"政府的工作是儘量讓雇主願意的門檻降低，可是確實現在我認為還沒有辦法走到只要勞工舉手說他要申請，雇主就一定是強制性的、不能拒絕的狀況。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：我想我們的工作是","start":"2026-06-03T13:58:15.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:58:25.809000+08:00","text":"所以在一個鼓勵的邏輯下面，政府是盡力讓雇主同意的門檻降低，這是我們要盡力做的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:58:26.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:58:49.649000+08:00","text":"部長，你務實回答這個問題，本席表示肯定，但如果是鼓勵的話，你要小心，因為在做政策宣傳的時候，一向都把話講得很滿，說減工時不減薪等等，大家會以為這是一個措施，大家到時候在討論法條的時候也一定會有相關的想法，沒關係，部長，因為今天時間有限，我也不耽誤你太多時間，本席馬上也會有相關的版本，我是有試著寫一些，大家在討論法案的時候就集思廣益來共同處理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:58:50.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:58:57.375000+08:00","text":"另外有一個小問題，相對於減工時不減薪，這個事情是小問題，你們說婚假等等要一起延長，對不對？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:58:57.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:05.022000+08:00","text":"就像產假、陪產假，有一些是放在第十五條的修正案裡面，但是婚假沒有放在裡面，你講婚假要延長，但婚假是走勞工請假規則，對不對？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:05.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:08.284000+08:00","text":"勞工請假規則是行政命令，你要不要提早宣布好消息，先把它處理完？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:09.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:11.747000+08:00","text":"確實婚假是在勞工請假規則裡面，所以它不用去修勞基法。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:12.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:13.228000+08:00","text":"不用修法，對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:13.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:29.821000+08:00","text":"所以我們的確現在也在思考這部分要來做的時機點，當然這裡面涉及到包括執行上面的系統，也包括我們會跟地方政府，也包括職代津貼相對應的制度，像職代津貼的執行現在就正在跟地方政府討論之中。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:30.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:31.523000+08:00","text":"有沒有相關的時間表？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:31.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:34.605000+08:00","text":"因為我想很多馬上要結婚的人就很期待這件事嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:35.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:35.485000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:35.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:38.807000+08:00","text":"如果它相對門檻沒有這麼高的話，因為一百多案還要討論一段時間。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:39.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:40.668000+08:00","text":"我們會儘快啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:40.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:47.873000+08:00","text":"但是的確這裡面涉及到在執行端，尤其是我們需要地方政府一起來跟我們合作執行，目前正在跟地方政府談。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:48.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:50.895000+08:00","text":"會後提供一下你預估的時間表、相關的流程，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:50.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:53.696000+08:00","text":"我們希望可以早日看到好消息，部長辛苦了，謝謝。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:53.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:54.237000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-03T13:59:54.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-03T13:59:57.594143+08:00","text":"接下來請陳瑩委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}