{"error":false,"id":["169859"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169859,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169859","日期":"2026-06-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-08T09:26:36+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-08T09:44:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:17:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf4a05d5bc4f1da00466bd9372075607de6dd124de216d0f13cfe0a54a769e1d6df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:26:36 - 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那我們是不是有請顧立雄 顧部長有請顧部長是 序瑞部長 我想首先請問您昭緯今天排今天這樣子的一個議題國軍老舊主要裝備太初啟程與戰力銜接配套規劃那您覺得他做這樣子的一個主題那是有什麼大家關心的事情所以排嗎"},{"start":31.518,"end":37.584,"text":"我想就這個題目來講,主要是就這個所有的國軍老舊的主要裝備的還有"},{"start":41.024,"end":63.411,"text":"在上個禮拜的時候其實民眾最關心的是這個T34C的失事事件那我非常非常意外這是失事之後您第一次到立法院報告剛才的報告也好或者是我們得到的書面報告也好完全沒有提到這件事情請問可不可以簡短說明一下為什麼"},{"start":65.581,"end":90.688,"text":"我剛已經說明了因為這個是整體的一個報告案所以我們是就整體的這些報告那整體的不包含T-34C它不在這個整體的範圍之內我想也會是在我們整體的也會在裡面但是不管在剛才的口頭報告或在書面報告裡面都完全沒有提到的理由到底是什麼因為我們不會就個別的案項"},{"start":91.368,"end":119.34,"text":"是啊它不是一個個別的案項但它在整體當中連一句話的機會都沒有為什麼呀我想我們大概就是你還笑得出來喔我們我們還是就整體的站立的這個接替的這個做一個做一個整體的說明啦做一個整體的說明那請問一下T34C這樣的一個失事案件到現在那不需要說明嗎可以說明嗎"},{"start":120.705,"end":145.793,"text":"我想可以跟委員說明我們現在就是確定我們會在明年的5月底完成建案那117年如果能夠豁付預算我們就開始進行籌購我要講一下就是說我們近期的軍機事故可以說是非常的多我們從2020年看到現在來講的話6年摔了14台然後呢這個有20位的官兵殉職"},{"start":146.893,"end":170.039,"text":"這樣子的一個狀況其實讓外界都非常的焦慮那現在是連出教機都已經從過去到現在有多次的這樣的一個失事的情況那我想問一下T34C雖然它還在全售期不過也已經服役超過40個年頭了時間相當的長那目前現役的數量 價數以及從過去1985年我們引進到現在損毀的價數分別是多少"},{"start":175.374,"end":179.619,"text":"我的了解是現在應該還有32架因為我們當時貨裝是在174那從76年開始就有失事的事件發生"},{"start":196.16,"end":218.445,"text":"從76年到最近的這一次那加起來應該是12次12次所以在12次的過程當中有沒有立法委員曾經公開的提出說因為T34C它沒有而且也不適合換彈射椅那所以呢希望國防部能夠緊抓這個預算能夠來汰換的這樣的一個過程在先前"},{"start":219.611,"end":247.51,"text":"我們出交機的部分應該是在民國74年貨裝那確實在當時就出交機的部分並沒有這個是的 我剛剛問的問題您沒有聽清楚我問的問題是在過去的這段時間裡面有沒有立法委員向國防部正式的提出來希望能夠汰換T-34這樣子的一個速度跟進程能夠加速 有沒有"},{"start":248.188,"end":272.256,"text":"因為我剛剛已經跟委員報告了我們現在有規劃嘛那之前的話我想T34沒有彈射座椅因為它沒有辦法裝嘛但是我想整個的裝備的妥善率都還是有維持住而且所有的機體的結構我們都也有透過相關的檢修來確認這個機體的結構是符合安全的12架嘛對不對"},{"start":277.839,"end":302.82,"text":"這些年以來?十四迄今,從民國七十六年迄今迄今是十二架,十二架的T34C損毀所以我們可以看到,其實像民進黨有一些立法委員他們在十一年前就開了記者會,提到希望能夠汰換甚至講到就是說,如果不換的話,他等於是蓄意殺人,這個不是我講的"},{"start":303.701,"end":331.118,"text":"這是11年前劉建國委員他們所開的記者會他當初就提到了中華民國空軍T-34C的失事記錄一覽表當初也是談到了因為我們當時買的T-34C它是沒有彈射座椅的所以我要請問一下他當時就在問我們要規劃到民國幾年那可不可以把您剛剛講的要建案接下來我們要建案的整個過程再重新的向我們社會大眾做一個完整的描述好嗎"},{"start":331.994,"end":353.51,"text":"我們現在是規劃就是在明年5月31號以前完成這個建案的程序所以今年會放入我們下半年要審的預算應該是117年來獲付預算117年來放入預算對 116年的5月31號以前完成建案程序"},{"start":354.931,"end":376.063,"text":"所以我從頭講講116年5月31號以前完成我們的建案程序然後預算納入117年的對我們會納入117年的預算獲付的就是我們8月會8月底會提出預算是的117年的"},{"start":376.423,"end":397.968,"text":"那就是110年提出117年的預算是117年然後我們提出預算好既然要有這樣的一個規劃提出預算現在大家在問的事情就是我們要選擇外購或者是製造國際國造繼續進行還是我們要像比如像日本他們可能去買這個T7啊這個從T7買到T6這樣子的一個規劃"},{"start":403.469,"end":430.232,"text":"兩者之間外購跟國建國造當中國防部目前的規劃是如何的我現在請空軍秉持專業現在做個評估我以為你要回答我現在只是要做個評估我剛剛以為你要回答我我們相關的這個可能的方案我們做一個評估提出一個試卸的籌購的策略那明年的5月31號以前會定案"},{"start":430.692,"end":450.567,"text":"所以要等一直要等到明年的5月31號我們才要知道說到底是要國機國造還是要外購是這樣子啦我想這個部分我們就尊重現在空軍的一個專業的不過但問題是我為什麼要拿這個11年前的事情來講就是當初劉建國委員還包括好幾位委員我就不一一點名了"},{"start":451.027,"end":471.86,"text":"他們其實開過記者會就向我們的軍方提出說T-34C的規劃要提早來規劃而我們在立法院裡面也得到了報告提到2033年要汰換如果我們往前推算的話我們來看一下往前推算的話2033如果我們要陸續處理基本上2030年我們要接裝要訓練飛行員2029年最起碼你要來交機2023年你其實就應該要發布需求書了"},{"start":480.706,"end":495.854,"text":"這是日本的規劃有一部分是如此的但我拿台灣的回來講就2033年這個數字是當初你們報給立法院的回推回來的話2029年要交機其實說真的你講回推回來的話"},{"start":497.177,"end":506.342,"text":"現在已經還蠻晚的了所以如果到現在因為這個事情不是今天大家在討論說T34G要不要汰換什麼時候要汰換那你從我剛剛講的11年前的記者會到現在這麼久了那都沒有規劃討論出來說我們到底是要選國機國造還是說我們要選要對外採購還要等到明年的5月才要告訴大家"},{"start":523.993,"end":528.779,"text":"這樣子真的對嗎?為什麼要做這樣子這麼緩慢的一個評估呢?"},{"start":529.757,"end":553.603,"text":"我想我們那個借售期的時間當然現在第一架借售期應該是民國121年所以我們107年獲利之後我們如果能夠在119或120年獲得我想我們就可以進行一個協調但是問題是你的方向沒有定出來嘛我今天沒有叫你說我明天就要拿到飛機我不是這個意思都按照你們的建軍計畫來做"},{"start":555.123,"end":570.609,"text":"但問題是今天我們想要確定的是既然2033年要陸續的除役那我們倒推回來看現在也應該已經到了做決定的時候那當我現在在這裡請教您我們的規劃是要選擇國機國造還是要選擇我們要外購的時候您告訴我我以為您要說要請空軍來做說明結果沒想到您講的是說要評估明年五月的時候再告訴我們"},{"start":582.293,"end":596.421,"text":"那中間的過程當中那不是讓很多的民眾也好我們的非官也好都很焦急嗎所以我擔心的是這個點啊我們看一下當初F-51失事非官的時候一位朱媽媽"},{"start":597.842,"end":603.486,"text":"他很痛心的提醒他那時候是講的是F5啦但是呢他講的事情其實是告訴我們說這個很多早晚會出問題他不希望我們的國防部不希望我們的國軍空軍把這些飛行員當成免洗塊他覺得今天有一架失事了那是不是你們就想著後面反正還有其他的飛行員所以沒有關係這是朱媽媽當時的說法如果非常非常遺憾的看到了"},{"start":627.262,"end":651.523,"text":"在T34C发生了事故之后我们的第一次国防部来到立法院的专案报告里面竟然没有对这件事情有做提及有做表达好再来最后我想要问一下有关于新博弈非官当时的最后调查结果两个月以前的新闻写说要把黑盒子送去判读请问现在目前的进度状况结果如何"},{"start":652.003,"end":674.341,"text":"新博弈非關後來找到了嗎?沒有找到的話原因是什麼?我們停止了嗎?我想第一個部分是就那個資料的這個延期的部分就黑盒子的部分有一個延期的出來出來但是那個還要做一個綜合判斷所以美方這部分的綜合判斷我們希望他們能夠儘速加快"},{"start":674.781,"end":701.382,"text":"到什麼時候 你們有沒有一個你每次講的進速加快 但我想問的事情是那我們要什麼時候能夠得到一個結果嗎這個事情也等好久啦相關的過程當中 雙方來來往往他們都會有要求提供我們一些相關的資料那我們也提供了那最後一次我們提供那個相關的資料在5月22號那現在有關那個整個的比對分析我們"},{"start":702.803,"end":725.577,"text":"有在6月5號有在詢問美方進度我們希望他們當然能夠儘管但是美方那邊還沒有給我們一個最後確切的日期所以請問一下我們的評估我們要到什麼時候才能把這個黑盒子的後續判讀以及整齊當時新飛官他的這個事件對國人社會做一個全面性最終的一個報告"},{"start":727.486,"end":753.484,"text":"我現在確實沒辦法給委員一個確切日期那我們會跟美方來盡速聯繫然後來早日來確定早日確定當然是好的但是每一次問每一次沒有一個進度的時候這也是讓大家最後很失望的所以最後一點點時間可不可以請部長針對T34C的部分有什麼要跟國人做報告的還有我們的這些非官以及非官的家屬說的一點點的時間可以回應一下嗎"},{"start":754.383,"end":781.772,"text":"我想發生這樣的事情當然我們都感到非常的這個這個不捨跟痛心那我們都我們會確保這個有關相關的這些所有的任何的失事案件最後都會有一些相關的測定作為我們都會來努力來那你們目前檢討的測定作為又是什麼呢"},{"start":782.432,"end":797.07,"text":"沒有看到啊我們現在相關內部都會啟動一個天安的一個檢測那相關其他非關的這些應該有的刑務還有關於一個考全軍的檢測"},{"start":800.294,"end":812.008,"text":"會計的檢測人員的重新的訓練等等我們都有在進行當中那除了這樣子的很日常的一個所謂的沒有太大的改變嘛就你們今天講說你們要檢討那我要有很具體的改變啊"},{"start":817.034,"end":822.976,"text":"你只講到了飛機要檢測那當然要檢測啊難道不檢測嗎人員要訓練當然要訓練啊難道不訓練嗎我問的是在T34C之後你除了遺憾跟不捨之外這個國人都遺憾跟不捨可是我們要聽到的是國防部的具體策進方向"},{"start":835.349,"end":846.715,"text":"我們就所有失事之後,我們相關的這些作為都有它一定的一個程序這些相關的細節程序如果委員要了解,我們是不是請參謀長官說明一下"},{"start":848.12,"end":876.117,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟您做一個簡單的報告除了剛您提到的天安特檢這是最基本的那我們針對所有全軍的飛機也同時做相關系統的一個發布提醒各單位針對人員的部分機械的部分我們也同步在進行做一個檢視人員的部分尤其是這雙座機的部分組員資源管理以及文化的部分我們這個部分也持續的在各部隊做一個加強教育"},{"start":877.498,"end":904.723,"text":"那至於細節的部分就是他們操作細節的部分這個我們針對各機種針對科目高風險科目的部分也同步做一個檢討那以上那最後我要提一件事情就是呢在當天的這個失事之後的記者會上面我們的國軍同仁在面對媒體提問的時候那因為這一位失事的這個教官他曾經有講過就是我不管他是開玩笑會如何的他曾經講過說開這個T-34就像在玩命一樣"},{"start":908.324,"end":919.49,"text":"那當然是他的說法可是我們國防部這邊在回應這個問題的時候竟然講到說我們都沒有蒐集到這樣的意見那是他個人的看法他個人的看法難道不重要嗎"},{"start":920.475,"end":942.906,"text":"他個人難道不是我們空軍體系的其中一員嗎如果你們能夠重視他的意見就不會在記者會做這樣的表達我個人在新聞上看到這樣的回覆的時候其實我很難過然後我也覺得這樣的回答是相當冷血的所以我很希望未來我相信沒有惡意但是我希望未來在這樣我當然不希望還有失事的情況發生"},{"start":943.806,"end":951.289,"text":"但我希望在未來任何事件我們在回應媒體在回應國人的時候能夠多一點溫度而不是當一個失事的非官曾經他真的在網路上也好他表達過他的個人意見結果呢這個個人意見你們過程當中沒有收到等到他失事以後被問到了你才說我們都沒有收過這個意見那只是他個人的看法"},{"start":968.536,"end":976.539,"text":"他個人的看法也很重要因為他就是非官他就是教官好嗎所以我希望T34C的部分今天時間也不是很夠希望能夠對國人能夠提出確切的檢討還有呢測定的作為以及失事之後我們的整體的調查報告跟狀況不只是T34C的"},{"start":990.724,"end":1002.922,"text":"還包含已經隔了一陣子有些人已經忘記新博弈非官的事情但我還記得所以我希望無論是黑盒子也好新博弈非官他的這個打撈的作業已經停止了嘛對吧"},{"start":1004.477,"end":1024.798,"text":"好 停止了 什麼時候停止可以再跟我們說明一下嗎因為停止的時候沒有特別聽到你們提及因為我們相關就是黑盒子在3月16號的時候我們已經撈起來3月18號送美元場那它的飛行資料紀錄器也同步地打撈上來所以關鍵性的這個資料都已經打撈上來經評估之後好 所以人找不到了嗎"},{"start":1025.359,"end":1039.77,"text":"可以這麼說非常遺憾相關的那些殘骸我們在附近都有再做過搜尋那時候也打撈出相關的殘骸但很不幸的並沒有發現到遺體希望未來失事的事情能夠不要再發生謝謝我們所有的機體都會來進行檢查然後機體的狀況會做評估這樣子謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}