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台灣舉辦重啟核三公投票或434萬人投下同意票總統賴清德也隨即表示 將落實核安會依法定"},{"start":1459.915,"end":1477.067,"text":"定定安全审查程序办法与台电依该办法自主安全检查并会在和安无虞 合肺有解社会共识的三大原则之下积极面对核能议题"},{"start":1478.308,"end":1502.361,"text":"前總統蔡英文所創辦的想想論壇亦於近日拋出專文強調能源政策是選擇題而非是非題能源政策應該放眼安全穩定與永續三者之間的平衡希望藉由今天公聽會的舉辦促進社會來了解"},{"start":1503.322,"end":1509.234,"text":"國家對於能源政策的策略還有佈局並驅動新能源發展的戰略"},{"start":1511.082,"end":1534.662,"text":"國際上 國盟已於2022年正式將核能列入永續投資分類日本亦重啟多座核電機組推動新一代的核能技術同時計畫研議核電廠使用年限更凸顯核能於減碳跟能源安全當中再度被定位為關鍵的選項"},{"start":1538.117,"end":1557.623,"text":"然而 臺灣能源結構高度依賴進口仍面臨核安疑慮 核廢料處理及社會信任等挑戰因此 未來政策應在確保核安與法治健全的前提之下省慎來評估保留部分可運轉"},{"start":1558.843,"end":1570.508,"text":"核能設施並強化核能技術與安全管理人才的培育深化國際合作與交流精進此次法規與監管制度"},{"start":1572.048,"end":1597.977,"text":"故召開此次公聽會聽取各界寶貴意見及互相交流討論期望透過理性的討論與專業的研議凝聚社會共識共同建構兼顧安全永續與韌性的台灣能源治理方向以作為日後核子反應器設施管制法相關條文修法之參考"},{"start":1599.639,"end":1621.946,"text":"那今天的討論提綱有四大議題第一個是在核安會依法訂定安全審查程序辦法與台電依該辦法自主安全檢查的兩必須下如何透過公開且透明的方式公布檢查進度與結果"},{"start":1623.647,"end":1652.081,"text":"建立公眾對核電安全的信心並增進核電使用的正確認知第二有鑒於我國核能安全法制的相關法律規範外界仍有權責劃分重疊跨部會協調不足的疑慮且在核廢料處置的資訊公開災害風險評估及公眾參與等方面的透明度仍有待提升"},{"start":1652.941,"end":1667.506,"text":"如何在法規與監管架構之下建立更清晰的權責層級與跨部會協調機制以強化核能安全治理的法治化"},{"start":1669.022,"end":1689.784,"text":"另外是否參考國際原子能總署及經濟合作發展組織的核能署的做法來推動核安風險評估報告定期公開跨機關資料整合與民眾參與機制第三個議題有建於我國雖參與"},{"start":1692.639,"end":1715.505,"text":"但EA COPDEP等國際核安技術交流但受限非國際原子能總署的正式會員與先進國家的合作層級仍有限未來是否能在核安會的編制下推動更高層級的國際交流與共訓機制第四個議題"},{"start":1717.403,"end":1744.944,"text":"有鑑於我國核能技術安全管理及放射防護等專業人才雖由多部會及學研機構共同推動但資源分散規劃不一長期整合機制仍待強化政府應該如何整合核能人才的培育配合核能安全監管與核能發展"},{"start":1745.805,"end":1767.896,"text":"他的主要挑戰為何都是要討論的好我們現在介紹與會的貴賓目前到的學者專家貴賓有前台灣電力公司核能安全處王總機察"},{"start":1773.339,"end":1796.905,"text":"好 歡迎第二位 清華大學科技法律研究所高明志教授第三位 前第二核能發電廠林文昌廠長第四位 美國愛荷華州立大學核子工程系賀利維博士"},{"start":1799.156,"end":1823.479,"text":"歡迎第五位中華經濟研究院綠色經濟研究中心陳仲順副研究員第六位氣候先鋒者聯盟楊家髮發起人第七位綠色公民行動聯盟崔素心秘書長"},{"start":1827.213,"end":1853.297,"text":"第八位新北市議會林秉佑議員第九位核能中留言終結者黃世修創辦人好目前我們在介紹與會的政府官員第一位核能安全委員會主委陳明珍"},{"start":1856.889,"end":1882.977,"text":"核能安全委員會主秘王崇德核安會綜合規劃組組長王里奇斯核安會核安管制組組長高斌核安會輻射防護組組長張淑君核安會保安應變組組長林真炫"},{"start":1888.8,"end":1914.062,"text":"河安會核物料管制組組長陳文權國家原子能科技研究院院長高子牧經濟部國營事業管理司司長胡文忠經濟部能源署副組長游祥偉"},{"start":1919.636,"end":1947.484,"text":"台電副總經理徐永輝台電處長林志寶好那現在又來一位學者專家前行政院原子能委員會放射性物料管理局黃慶春局長好歡迎"},{"start":1952.854,"end":1969.908,"text":"為了讓大家能夠順利表達意見我們做如下的處理每位貴賓發言時間是7分鐘在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲的提醒第7分鐘結束時會有一個結束的鈴聲"},{"start":1972.779,"end":2001.672,"text":"那第二專家學者發言以簽名先後順序為準現場發言的書面資料立法會會做成紀錄來刊登公報在場的立法委員如果有意見發表請於10點之前登記那我們也會在會議當中進行穿插並以在場委員登記順序發言那如果委員要發言到現在就請要到主席台上來做登記了"},{"start":2003.342,"end":2030.885,"text":"那我们现在先请河安会主委陈明珍主委就现行规定执行状况相关问题提出说明那时间是5分钟主席各位委员各位先进女士先生大家好"},{"start":2032.355,"end":2048.066,"text":"非常感谢今天有这个机会代表核能安全委员会列席教育文化委员会举办的如何在核能治理法治化与透明化机制下精进我国核能安全与发展工程会"},{"start":2049.232,"end":2068.331,"text":"以下警告核安会的执掌分别从核能管制现状资讯公开灾害准备国际合作以及人才培育五个面向向各位简要报告一核电厂现状与法治推动"},{"start":2069.926,"end":2092.257,"text":"目前我国的核一二三厂运转执照都已借其进入除异阶段台电公司也因应除异需求进行组织与人力的调整核一厂部分非燃料相关设施已经陆续拆除目前各机组设备及组织人力已经和运转发电所需实施条件存有差距"},{"start":2095.56,"end":2120.165,"text":"合一場室外乾除設施已經運作並已完成一號機爐心燃料清空合一場室外乾除及合一二三場室內乾除設施將持續辦理中配合立法院三度通過《核四反應器設置管制法》第六條修正案合安會已經於10月8日完成執法"},{"start":2121.889,"end":2147.318,"text":"科技反应器运转执照申请审核办法的修订这是修法主要修正换届申请期限并强化辐射议题及耐震安全评估也新增除疫后恢复运转所需的再运转计划等规范使核能管制更加周延更符合国际标准二 资讯公开与公众参与"},{"start":2148.749,"end":2177.505,"text":"核安會非常重視資訊公開與社會溝通在官網設置有專區主動公佈各項管制資訊與重大案件進度包含核安管制廢棄物產量防護措施環境輻射監測等資訊此外對於重大案件與審查期間召開地方說明會令相關放射性廢棄物申請"},{"start":2179.886,"end":2192.682,"text":"申请执照阶段台电公司必须先举办公开说明会听取地方意见河南会也依法办理公告展示听证程序确保民众能充分参与"},{"start":2194.884,"end":2212.47,"text":"三 灾害风险评估与准备在核子事故的应变准备方面我国采取风险导向分级应变的原则依国际标准划设紧急应变计划区EPG作为防护重点区域"},{"start":2213.53,"end":2232.776,"text":"台电公司每三年提出EPG评估报告,在衡安会进行审查核定,为了落实透明性与公众信任,衡安会已主动公开评估报告与审查结果,确保角色公开透明,科学依据非常充分。"},{"start":2234.229,"end":2254.897,"text":"第四,国际交流与共同训练。我国虽然不是国际原子能总署的政治会员,但核安会仍积极参与国际技术交流,包括与美、日等核能先进国家每年定期举办双边合作会议,保持长期合作关系。"},{"start":2255.837,"end":2264.354,"text":"此外也参与OECD NEA等国际组织的技术讨论随时掌握全球核能安全最新发展"},{"start":2267.028,"end":2295.609,"text":"核能安全委員会持续运用国际合作关系推动核能国际交流培训机制以确保我国管制水准与国际同步第五核能人才的培育在核能人才方面核安会除透过核能公费留学运行科技学术合作研究计划等机制也将与大学合作开发核能课程以支持大学院校培养高专业人才"},{"start":2297.284,"end":2312.952,"text":"核安会内部也有相关训练体系,除了训练课程及阵阵外,亦派员与美日等国交流建立与国际实验室的合作机制,以确保专业与知识的实务经验得以延续。6.结语"},{"start":2313.852,"end":2337.47,"text":"对于核能议题政府秉持核安无虞核废有解社会共识三原则因应核国关税法第六条修法上路核核官员于近期完成执法相关程序调整未来坚持核能安全职责资讯公开强化公众参与促进国际教育培育人才以提升我国核能安全管制能量也让社会"},{"start":2338.211,"end":2358.545,"text":"能對核能議題有更充分的瞭解與信任以上報告敬請各位委員與各位先生不吝指教謝謝大家好 謝謝核安委主委請回座我們現在請經濟部代表發言時間三分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2367.604,"end":2383.852,"text":"主席各位委员及各位关心核能的先进大家好今天很高兴承蒙委员会邀请本部就这个议题来进行报告首先是核能的使用前提核子反应器设施管制法第六条修正案在今年五月公布"},{"start":2384.412,"end":2402.464,"text":"那總統就已經明定了這個條文明定了核能電廠可以在執照建滿後可以依法申請換發那面對核能電廠再運轉的可行性總統明白的揭示秉持兩必須跟三個原則第一個必須是核安會依法訂定安全審查程序辦法"},{"start":2402.924,"end":2430.229,"text":"其中核磁反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条等修正案已经在今年的10月8号正式的公告那第二个必须就是台电会依法进行自主安全检查评估再运转安全的条件其成与成本那三个原则分别就是核安无虞核废有解跟社会的共识在再运转的评估方面本部现在正在审理台电公司所传理的各核能电厂现况评估报告"},{"start":2430.689,"end":2445.316,"text":"那這份報告會針對核一核二核三廠現況跟廚藝的進程進行檢視包括了機組設備維護人力與訓練的配置燃料與廢棄物的管理地震耐震條件跟安全設計等那也會針對"},{"start":2446.497,"end":2462.4,"text":"再运转的执行整备工作项目进行评估包括自主安全检查关键设备的弱点改善工作项目的时间成本燃料供应等可用的资源这份报告也会评估再运转对于供电稳定的贡献以及减碳的效益"},{"start":2463.069,"end":2491.844,"text":"那在今年8月23日公民投票案後總統已經明白地宣示政府會在秉持兩個必須跟三個原則下積極來面對核能的議題評估核能電廠再運轉的可行性因此本部會致力推動依法 科學 透明的核安管理制度並支持以嚴謹的程序審視核電的安全確保台電公司會嚴格地執行核能電廠的自主安全檢查鞏固公眾對於核電安全的信心我們希望"},{"start":2492.304,"end":2518.14,"text":"核電的安全跟社會的信任能夠同時並行 以上謝謝好 謝謝經濟部胡文忠市長我們現在請台灣電力公司的副總經理徐永輝先生主席還有各位委員以及各位關心核能的先進大家早"},{"start":2519.216,"end":2544.699,"text":"今天城門櫃委員會邀請台電公司就如何核能治理法制化跟透明機制下的一個精進我國核能安全跟發展說明如下總統在今年8月其實已經有指示就是核能的使用必須要遵循兩個必須跟三個原則第一個必須當然是核安會必須依法訂定安全審查的程序辦法"},{"start":2545.475,"end":2553.732,"text":"那相關的核磁反應器的設施的運轉制造申請審核辦法的第16條的修正內容呢也已經在今年的"},{"start":2554.958,"end":2580.183,"text":"10月8號正式公告第二個必須當然就是本公司必須依辦法進行自主安全的檢查評估載運轉的安全條件的期程還有成本目前本公司已經完成了各核能電廠的現況評估報告目前經濟部正在審理中後續如果核准後本公司將依全數的辦法第16條修正內容"},{"start":2582.523,"end":2610.626,"text":"編撰所謂的再運轉計畫並且啟動自主安全檢查全面來檢視機械電器還有儀控這些設備材料在運轉環境下老化的狀況未來維護的保養的策略然後來評估並確認設備是否需要汰換或執行老化管理來符合法規的條件跟安全的要求那主要再運轉計畫跟自主安全檢查的目的跟內容如下"},{"start":2611.311,"end":2618.798,"text":"第一個 在運轉計畫它的目的就是要把已經停機的機組的設備跟電廠的組織帶回到可營運的狀態它的內容包括長子機組現況跟計畫排程也包括組織人力配置跟訓練的規劃"},{"start":2628.627,"end":2652.148,"text":"還有再運轉的工作項目跟定期維護跟檢查的規劃也包括在運轉期間的規範還有運轉文件恢復的規劃還有包括品質查證方案跟稽查計畫自主安全檢查的目的主要是要評估各電廠各項設施設備組件在受其40年屆滿後它可以延長運轉的年限"},{"start":2653.088,"end":2674.998,"text":"這裡面包括整體老化評估與老化管理也包括了實現老化的分析也包括了中期安全分析包括跟運轉技術規範的增修內容另外在修正的執法裡面也規範了輻射相關議題的差額評估跟耐震的安全的評估說明"},{"start":2676.926,"end":2694.515,"text":"那本公司完成了自主安全檢查報告以後也會接受國外獨立機構進行所謂的同儕審查來評估再運轉的可行性那本公司作為能源政策的執行單位首重核能安全除依據法規辦以外也將參考國際同儕進行標竿學習確認核能專業跟標準"},{"start":2700.658,"end":2712.208,"text":"那經濟部核准的核電現況評估報告後我們也會依法來完備災運轉計畫跟執行自主安全檢查秉持專業穩健務實的做好每一步 謝謝"},{"start":2721.363,"end":2730.093,"text":"好我們現在請簽名順序第一位的專家學者前台電和安處王總機察來進行發言"},{"start":2748.553,"end":2770.453,"text":"主席還有各位專家各位來賓大家好我今天啊真的是很高興啊竟然還有這個機會來到最高的這個立法院的這個廳堂來講一講我這一輩子最關心的事情那我只要一講出來"},{"start":2773.888,"end":2794.745,"text":"我才講出來你們在座的可能都以前都不知道有這個內幕啊事實上呢合一合二合三的原理啊以前就是我在台電的時候大概公司指定我就做這一件事情的原理所以"},{"start":2796.018,"end":2823.095,"text":"我們曾經在這個前面這個一二十年啊針對合一廠已經跟研能會那時候叫研能會啊已經都拿快要拿到了所以這一點呢可能各位大概就比較不清楚事實上我們台電本身就是有這個經驗可以拿到執照但是那個時候剛剛福島事情發生了所以呢最後合一廠就沒有"},{"start":2825.003,"end":2849.368,"text":"就放棄了就是沒有拿到這個執照但是核二核三我們都有繼續把它做完做下去那核三現在我們在談的就是談核三那我非常高興就是說今天我們也台灣也辦了公投公投也看起來是蠻成功的然後現在政府單位看起來也是贊成我們這個繼續運轉下去那我"},{"start":2854.864,"end":2881.644,"text":"只要我要講的一個事情就是說針對我們荷輪電廠的原理台電都是按照因為我們的電廠都是都是美國的所以我們都是按照美國人怎麼做我們就怎麼做所以我在公投之前我是到處在宣講就是說一定要盯著"},{"start":2882.83,"end":2901.589,"text":"台電按照美國的這種方式來做然後那個核安會就是一定要盯好剛剛我們兩位長官都已經把這個事情都已經講得很清楚了所以我是說今天既然"},{"start":2903.038,"end":2921.945,"text":"找我民眾黨啊找我要來講幾句話那我就真的是我們千萬要有信心把這個河山的這個原理一定要把它做好然後河也可以做原理那希望呢民眾黨不要"},{"start":2924.195,"end":2952.768,"text":"一定要把它堅持到底啊因為因為我發現啊我已經這一輩子這後面這20年啊已經都是已經頭髮都擺成這個樣子就代表我這壓力很大因為我已經為了這個研議這個工作已經在台電我已經花了多少錢花了多少人力那今天看起來呢今天包括在這個在這個場合真的是我看到很接近"},{"start":2953.649,"end":2975.403,"text":"要成功的一個階段那我希望民眾黨一定要把這個事情要把它盯完然後剛剛我們都聽到台電的長官還有河安會你們剛剛講的話我不能說你們一定要怎麼樣我就說希望你們到按照你們剛剛講的"},{"start":2977.079,"end":2998.115,"text":"要堅持下去把它做完然後這個是我的心念那我最後再講一個事情為什麼今天這個嚴厲這個工作為什麼找一個河岸處的一個總機察為什麼總機察在做這個事事實上我的專長是核能安全"},{"start":2999.769,"end":3021.564,"text":"所以當初公司指派我來做這個事情他的重點就是說你核能安全你一定要把它做好所以才特別指定我來立的這個團隊我那個團隊最高的時候大概有100多人那我有信心只要"},{"start":3023.516,"end":3048.957,"text":"政府不反對我們這樣做的話我想台電現在目前的人力應該也都是有辦法把這個工作非常嚴謹的把它做好我剛剛私下我已經跟我們這個副總副總事實上是以前我的學弟就是小老弟現在當副總我退休了但是他跟我講了一些話我覺得細心滿滿"},{"start":3051.286,"end":3073.679,"text":"就是說我們共同來把這個研擬這個工作把它做好然後給台灣有足夠的店這樣子好不好我這個真的有一點講一講就有一點想要掉眼淚因為我沒有想到說最後我退休了以後五六年了竟然還有這個機會"},{"start":3075.413,"end":3102.31,"text":"能夠在這邊講話特別是今天這個是立法院的一個最高的一個殿堂能夠在這邊把我想要講的想要做的事情把它做完當然今天在在座的有一些人可能看法是不一樣但是我覺得我們大家為了這個台灣為了我們的能源希望"},{"start":3103.308,"end":3112.611,"text":"把事情做完 絕對不要去反對他這樣好不好 蘇西 謝謝你啊我已經碰到你 碰到好幾次了謝謝你給我這個機會 謝謝好 謝謝王總級察"},{"start":3125.799,"end":3136.774,"text":"我們現在請第二位發言清華大學科技法律研究所的教授高明志先生請麥克風就靠近一點"},{"start":3137.612,"end":3157.132,"text":"好的 主席 主席劉委員然後以及各位與會的核能的先進以及專家們大家好然後其實我今天來分享的主題啦其實就是來跟大家談比較是從談公眾溝通跟法制面的議題這樣然後其實今天討論題剛剛其實一開始主席有說其實那個"},{"start":3157.933,"end":3184.133,"text":"那個議題內還蠻多的我今天只是說我大概定位在前兩題因為其實後面兩題應該有其他更厲害的先進可以去做分享這樣然後然後其實在進入提綱之前其實我們之前在3月19號的時候其實在這個會議室裡面其實也有已經有辦過類似的然後其實我前一次其實就說假如說這次這個8月的公投其實"},{"start":3184.953,"end":3211.468,"text":"或者說相關的議題來說其實我們台灣目前在推飛河計案其實有蠻大的問題那我不重複講我之前的論點那我主要是在講說其實我猜想今天其實蠻多的與會的專家有一些專家或許會一直說河山公投沒有發生法律效力的這一點可是其實我一直在覺得說我一直覺得說其實河山公投無論如何他到底有沒有達到那個"},{"start":3212.386,"end":3226.825,"text":"人數的門檻其實它已經在公投的前一天就已經發生事實上或政治的效力大家必須要注意這一點就是曾文森董事長其實有說無論核三公投結果都要啟動安全評估"},{"start":3227.706,"end":3249.213,"text":"而且那個時候是說兩年,因為兩年這句話很有趣,我猜有一些專家可能會針對這個兩年的部分做琢磨。然後當時其實有蠻多的討論,就是說這公投浪費錢,然後浪費了11億,可是實際上大家其實在場的,大家也都知道說都紅阿來的啦,所以其實都知道說,其實到底是誰,"},{"start":3250.493,"end":3266.611,"text":"非害大家一定要來做這個公投其實某種程度來說其實就是有一些目前其實還有少數覺得說反正就是反核的神主牌的這個部分所以我會覺得說這裡做一個說明然後其實在公投結束之後其實我有接受報導者的訪問"},{"start":3267.552,"end":3289.691,"text":"我會覺得說核電在台灣未來非常有意義特別是從2018之後其實一直在推所謂以核養綠公投然後以核養綠公投大家就會覺得說以核養綠公投它的核心內涵到底是什麼我覺得摘出來就是這一句話就是其實最近大家也都知道說再生能源無論太陽光電離岸風電已經有點像是引發變成有點像過街老鼠的冷寒打"},{"start":3290.111,"end":3310.444,"text":"然後當然說其中一個原因就是它造成了高電價的這個問題然後我會覺得說利用便宜的核電來紓解就是電價上漲的壓力其實向來是各國其實不是只有台灣其實世界各國都是用這個方式來紓解民眾對於再生能源的那一種厭惡感"},{"start":3311.545,"end":3336.603,"text":"所以我會覺得說核電在今天的這個場合其實非常的重要特別是對台灣的未來非常重要這是我在進入主題之前稍微說一下那至於說在針對媒體的主題我大概都栽入一些我自己覺得台灣相對來講比較欠缺的議題來跟大家做討論然後大家其實說在座其實有蠻多的官員其實你們都長久以來做核能的溝通嘛"},{"start":3337.023,"end":3362.994,"text":"啊什麼樣叫做正確的認知啦我只能跟我我我我觀察了在這觀察這個能源政策25年以來啊我發現說那根本就是不可能啦因為就是信則很細不信則很不幸吧對啊湯庫斯都退休了可是那個我我每次會放這一張圖就是說說湯庫斯的mission在困難其實都沒有我們台灣今天要做溝通這件事情困啦因為湯庫斯最後都可以解決嘛對然後"},{"start":3367.54,"end":3390.97,"text":"然後可是雖然說政府其實都一直在做說他非常公開透明可是最近這幾年其實我就不講說是哪一個溝通其實大家都知道說能源淨零氣候領域其實那個有些單位其實會很認真做了蠻多溝通的事情可是這是我整理出來常見的大家在溝通看到的一些問題比如說什麼勒"},{"start":3391.67,"end":3415.271,"text":"就是說政府常常就很喜歡把一個文件就丟到就未來其實假如說有這個核能安全包括丟到網路上然後就說大家來討論你沒有擷取問題你沒有擷取大概20個關鍵問題其實民眾有時候無從討論其實很難討論聚焦所以其實常常每次很常這種溝通的場合大家也都發現說我最喜歡做一個動作就是這樣"},{"start":3416.607,"end":3432.802,"text":"就是很多點都對不起來然後其實蠻多有做溝透的人都會感同身受所以意見就會流於雞頭鴨講未必呼應當天的研究主題然後更重要的是我們發言人我常去那些場合我很常去發言可是我後來看我的會議記錄"},{"start":3434.54,"end":3463.662,"text":"被做了很奇怪的濃縮甚至可能不是我的意思然後這是很常見的因為我25年前我就是專門做這種溝通會議的會議紀錄所以我完全知道很忙嘛怎麼可能做組織稿咧所以就有很多溝通上面的問題然後也包括說像最近發現說有一些有名的主持人啊很喜歡把發言者的意見做不精確的歸納然後再說請部長回答請次長回答類似這種相信說大家聽了可能都會滿感同身受的"},{"start":3464.102,"end":3488.122,"text":"然後我自己其實在這過程當中我會觀察哪些國就是世界各國真的都向台灣做這種溝通嗎然後可是而且甚至我常常會把這種溝通的影片放給學生看然後學生就會說為什麼政府要找一個會議室再把很多的簡報重新念過一次然後他同學其實聽了五分鐘就已經失去耐心了"},{"start":3488.482,"end":3501.991,"text":"所以我當然說最重要的我會覺得說政府其實也蠻無奈的所以我這邊有提出最重要的一點政府有報到有很可以很霸道的排除不是本次討論主題的回應然後這個不是我特別特別講因為那個"},{"start":3504.164,"end":3523.113,"text":"就是像比如說像英國英國就會做這樣的事情就是他53個回應可是他發現28個回應不是一半他就直接把它放到檢查部分他不用詳細回應所以我認為說其實今天發言之後假如說有蠻多其實我會證明說這種公眾諮詢制度的重要性"},{"start":3523.573,"end":3551.327,"text":"然後第二題其實要講的是這個權責劃分等等這些議題然後我必須要說我們河岸文化非常良好可是我們比較有趣的是我們是2011福島事件之後第一個降級河岸管制的國家現在已經降為了三級而且我們國內非常罕見的有這種三級的獨立機關這是非常罕見的所以可能要讓核能的層級回來可能可以回應這個命題然後最後到我的結論的部分我就簡單的說就是"},{"start":3554.997,"end":3577.546,"text":"然後其實我們目前之後要做的這個核能安全溝通到底能不能能夠仿照英國或歐盟導進這個因為其實像之前的前英國駐台代表唐凱琳回國之前我就跟她說說其實我們台灣欠缺你們英國的這種public consultation其實它可以避免台灣在各種議題機種壓降然後造成內吼然後最後"},{"start":3580.797,"end":3589.747,"text":"我再借個30秒就會切換一直卡住這就是我最後一頁因為這一頁我覺得蠻重要的就是說在核能重啟的時候其實一直有一個議題"},{"start":3591.075,"end":3615.3,"text":"一直被提起可是都不太有人觸碰就是這個要不要做環評這件事然後要不要做環評這件事我也想了很久可是我覺得說在我們目前的政府法規裡面或許少數可以解套的空間是在其他金主管機關指定之文件的這個事情上面然後因為我們大家都知道說這個議題假如不處理的話未來會產生的一些不確定性"},{"start":3615.74,"end":3628.629,"text":"那到底要怎麼處理其實目前法律都已經公佈了又感覺很難處理可是其實我認為說可以透過這一句話在16條16條之一16條之二當作一個媒介然後來處理這個議題好這是我的簡報不好意思拖到一些時間謝謝大家好謝謝清大的高明志教授那我們現在請立法委員郭育晴進行發言"},{"start":3647.389,"end":3672.168,"text":"好 謝謝主席那也非常謝謝在場的所有的先進大家早安我想講到這個河安的一個審查台電扮演了不同的多重的一個角色我想自主的檢查並要公開透明但是台電既是營運者同時又是一個檢查者本質上是不是會讓人家覺得是求援兼裁判"},{"start":3672.828,"end":3690.598,"text":"我想再多的一些報告其實也沒有辦法去承擔就是我們最擔心的河岸上可能會帶來的一些風險我想如果一旦核災發生我想這個影響的不只是跨時代它跨區域甚至它的後果是完全不可逆的"},{"start":3692.139,"end":3713.695,"text":"比如說像福島的核災所帶來的可能的環境的污染跟社會的成本就在提醒我們其實核能沒有所謂的零風險而真正的一個安全應該是要來選擇一個不會造成不可逆後果的一個能源而不是一些檢查報告的堆疊這是我的以上的意見"},{"start":3714.735,"end":3724.4,"text":"再來其實大家都知道核廢料的風險跟治理的一個透明化這樣子的一個主題是目前為止我們都還在依舊在尋找共識當中"},{"start":3726.311,"end":3743.786,"text":"核能的法治其實還是存在著所謂的權責的一個重疊那跨部會的一個協調不足的一些問題其實依舊存在那整個所有的治理的一個體系的脆弱但是最重要最重要重重之重的核心其實就是核廢料"},{"start":3744.306,"end":3771.449,"text":"高階廢料的處置廠到現在為止我們有達到共識了嗎那在全球其實都沒有永久安全的處置的一個方法連芬蘭其實也花了50年才決定選址最終的這個處置廠但是據說他們最新的報告又繼續展現他們的一個建造囉那換句話來說只要核能還在我們的土地尤其是在台灣我們是"},{"start":3771.989,"end":3790.539,"text":"地震多的一個這樣子的一個地方我們的土地就要背負萬年的一個輻射的一個風險或者是核災上的一個風險我想核廢料的處置包含在地的居民他們要有知情權再來他們也要有選擇權再來他們也要利益的共享"},{"start":3790.939,"end":3809.535,"text":"我想荷安的風險評估報告定期也應該要公開當然也包含核廢料的一些風險才能夠真正的代表民眾他們參與的一個機制而不是說我們公開透明的資料而已但是我們還要把更多的社會共識也納入最重要的討論當中"},{"start":3810.896,"end":3820.488,"text":"那再來其實在核災的國際及時援助我們有沒有可能在核安發生危險的同時得到國際的幫助呢"},{"start":3822.708,"end":3852.368,"text":"我想老舊的核電廠那不管這個國際的訓練或者是技術上的一些交流都沒有辦法讓老化的硬體能夠回春這個我想是大概每一個人應該都知道的所以我們是不是也應該要將資源投入到所謂的這些廚藝的技術跟本土再生能源的一個研發才是我們嶄新的一個方向那未來其實包含核融合的一個技術也是值得關注"},{"start":3852.908,"end":3880.868,"text":"那它比較不同於所謂的這個核分裂不容易產生所謂的高階的核廢料那將核融合的一些技術專業的一個人才的培訓或者是我們把這樣子的人才跟國際來做這樣子的一個交流那在廚藝跟核廢料的處理來做整合是不是才是比較有所謂的這個能源永續跟安全上的這個能源的一個策略那提供給大家做參考"},{"start":3881.408,"end":3896.594,"text":"那另外再講到這個人才專業的培養的部分我想還是要以永續的能源轉型為最重要的一個導向那重點是這個廚藝跟核廢料的一個處置還有核融合的一個新技術我們是不是應該可以整合教育"},{"start":3897.134,"end":3916.244,"text":"那麼科研跟產業的一個資源來建立長期的培育的一個計畫能夠確保我們的人才不斷鏈那再來剛剛我有特別提到就核廢料的一個管理那另外呢還有我們新興的這個核融合的能源的一個發展那核能的一個人才也應該要獲得支持"},{"start":3916.744,"end":3936.133,"text":"那麼再來再要投入所謂的綠能 儲能另外還有智慧電網等新興的一些產業我想這才是能夠讓更多的從業人員他們在整個所有的就是他們的高階的技術力不要流失提供以上的一些參考"},{"start":3936.733,"end":3956.514,"text":"我想這個總結來說我們不是在討論是如何把這個老舊的核電廠管得更安全而是要正視這個核能本身的一些風險跟它治理的一個困境我想真正安全的能源其實我們是剛剛有提到就是不要留給我們跨世代不可逆的災害的一個選擇"},{"start":3957.535,"end":3974.5,"text":"那真正的核安呢應該是要來自所謂的零核廢料那零不可逆的一個風險還有專業人才的一個投入那我想呢這個台灣應該是要把我們這個最有限的一些資源那麼建構在安全永續的能源的系統上"},{"start":3975.481,"end":3996.642,"text":"當然很多人可能會講說這個公投都已經過了但是大家忽略了這個核四至少還要再花10年以上尤其是我們的二號機其實是還沒有完成至少還要再800億的一個預算才會蓋完我想2024年我們的燃氣發電占比其實也已經超過所謂的燃煤的發電"},{"start":3997.623,"end":4024.14,"text":"那當然也許很多這個在場的先進有不同的一些意見但是我提供我以上所知道的這些跟大家來做以上的一個分享好 以上謝謝好 謝謝郭韻琴委員好 接下來請劉淑冰召委"},{"start":4028.305,"end":4056.548,"text":"好 謝謝代理主席在場的各位官員還有學者 專家大家早安今天在談論核能治理的法制化跟透明化機制來新進我國的核能安全與發展我們看到的是核能的治理與發展它並不只是電力技術的一個選擇更攸關到我國產業競爭力跟能源的安全"},{"start":4057.228,"end":4076.522,"text":"身為在野黨的立委我要嚴正的指出現今政府的能源政策已經脫離了國際趨勢也忽略了科學跟現實的一個需求面對氣候變遷跟淨零碳排的目標全球紛紛的重視到核能的低碳跟穩定價值"},{"start":4078.203,"end":4092.891,"text":"不僅歐盟把核能列為了綠能的分類美國將它納入了零碳電力的組合日本也重啟了新世代核電計畫那科化國企業GoogleAppleMicrosoft等"},{"start":4093.311,"end":4107.279,"text":"更要求供應鏈在2040年前必須要實現全時無碳的電力若台灣繼續排除核能仰賴火力發電補充勢必會被全球供應鏈來邊緣化"},{"start":4110.189,"end":4120.478,"text":"現今執政黨所說的再生能源可以補足電力缺口但事實上在2023年三大科學園區的用電約430度再生能源發電卻僅有270億度連供應園區都不足"},{"start":4129.386,"end":4145.927,"text":"那過去呢我在質詢當中呢也多次提醒當前的系統用電率呢出現超過90%的現象那備轉容量呢一度警戒甚至要偷開備用機組來撐場面包括看一下這個PPT裡面就看得到甚至在9月17號的時候"},{"start":4147.93,"end":4175.367,"text":"核電廠的清油機組的都全開出現在這種情況電力不足還需要仰賴儲備能源包括的是8到14天的儲備的天然氣作為補充一旦運輸受阻兩周內就可能陷入供電危機這就是非常大的國安問題這樣的能源結構既不綠也不安全反而將我們暴露在地緣政治的風險當中"},{"start":4177.188,"end":4183.198,"text":"反觀核能它的三大特性低碳 穩定 安全正是台灣最需要的"},{"start":4184.352,"end":4211.991,"text":"核電的排碳僅12公克的CO2當量燃料可儲備至少18個月具備高強度的韌性每度電的成本也比燃煤與燃氣低尤其核三廠才剛停機不久設施與人力仍完備若能重啟既可穩定供電也可避免龐大的興建成本因此我要呼籲"},{"start":4213.379,"end":4231.206,"text":"政府正式核三廠的重啟讓核能回復到國家的能源佈局當然 社會對於核能的疑慮不能夠忽視但問題的根源在於資訊不透明事實上 核三廠自1984年運轉以來超過30年從來未發生重大事故"},{"start":4236.107,"end":4256.703,"text":"也多次通過國際能源總署的集合這些數據政府應該主動揭露讓科學證據來取代恐懼現在我要特別強調核安資訊的公開透明是重建社會信任的基礎這邊我們來看一下美國的核安"},{"start":4257.843,"end":4282.198,"text":"核安壞的網站他針對帕利賽茲的核電廠重啟的審查公開資訊大家可以看PPT裡面就已經從主頁當中一進去就可以點到核電廠所有的審查跟會議的資訊那我們繼續往下看這個核電廠的重啟跟審查公開資訊當中包括到提交的審查時間還包括預計完成的時間雖然"},{"start":4283.979,"end":4309.316,"text":"核安會都有強調包括台電有說他們已經做了一些重啟就是做了一些這個可能重啟的這部分的資訊但是有沒有個時間表而且事實上每一個階段都已經寫出來了這一部分要注意到那另外我們再繼續看到剛才也有提到說有說要做環評很棒啊那我們先看到美國這邊呢他有對重啟核電廠的環境評估的審查時程這裡面包括的"},{"start":4310.717,"end":4328.086,"text":"核安會的受理審查利害關係人通知包括汪明志教授也提到了這些部分利害關係人通知公眾參與的會議還有核安會提出的評估草案草案意見的徵詢他重複最後的評估決策"},{"start":4329.046,"end":4350.015,"text":"這部分都是非常重要的但是反觀我們看到的是我國河岸會主動公開的資訊的這個網頁當中就可以看到這個部分洋洋灑灑有13項但是並沒有規定審查時程這些部分都是很普通的一般資訊那另外也沒有及時進度跟河岸會的審查報告"},{"start":4351.255,"end":4373.515,"text":"有些部分是關於說 核安會公告了核三廠廚藝 有但是呢 他在這首頁當中的下面部分可以看到關於核電廠的廚藝管制等等的相關的這些部分都可以看到 申請審查等等的一直點到這裡也只能看到審查時程規劃都已經跳了好幾頁了 不是很願意公開這麼多資訊"},{"start":4375.957,"end":4388.017,"text":"這部分我們可以看到的沒有這些審查時程內容只僅限這些而且資訊零散的又不透明因此我希望核安會我要要求核安會不該繼續在"},{"start":4390.512,"end":4405.106,"text":"再度下去在於說他必須要真的回應到公開資訊透明的讓方便去查詢的一個狀況先前我們考察台電的時候在運轉的計畫與自主安全檢查早已經準備充分了"},{"start":4406.207,"end":4428.269,"text":"那核安會應該將審查的時程跟進度規劃出來公告周知並將審查時程及時進度跟結果的資訊公開讓全民都能夠有效的監督重建信任最後我要嚴肅的提醒執政黨能源政策不該是意識形態的戰場而應該是國家安全跟競爭力的基礎台灣沒有這些怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4430.233,"end":4445.219,"text":"但總統既然已經承諾核電重啟可以是個選項之一針對核安無虞 核廢有解 社會共識三項的原則就應該立即要求行政院提出具體的評估指標跟規劃"},{"start":4446.986,"end":4460.316,"text":"記住喔 就是具體的評估指標跟規劃而不只是韓韓口號不排除核能這樣的模糊與矛盾正是在讓全國都付出代價最後呢 要提出呼籲"},{"start":4462.711,"end":4491.837,"text":"正視能源安全與產業近鄰的需求以科學為本重新檢討能源佈局第二 核安會應該立即改善資訊透明度讓審查進度與結果公開第三 呼籲總統召開國事會議邀請專家產業民間共商能源結構讓台灣的未來找到真正穩定安全永續的能源道路謝謝好 謝謝我們的署兵趙偉"},{"start":4503.69,"end":4509.012,"text":"現在請林文昌先生他是前第二核能發電廠的廠長主席各位先進各位專家大家好"},{"start":4530.756,"end":4556.477,"text":"我是林文昌從台電退休工作了40年退休已經10年這個年紀大了體力也越來越不濟可是這幾年來我們還是為著核電的問題在奔波說來是在很感傷一個我們過去蓬勃發展了40年的核電輪到到今天我們所有的機組都停了當然"},{"start":4560.182,"end":4586.649,"text":"國家的能源政策上是要發展綠能希望能夠減碳2050年也希望能夠達到淨零排碳可是把核能這一塊拿掉的話我們真的是懷疑啦這個只是一個空中樓格的一個理想實際上應該是要核能跟綠能一起來並肩合作才有機會達成"},{"start":4592.185,"end":4599.018,"text":"國家發展委員會在淨零排碳的過程中裡面提到了很多東西都是在"},{"start":4600.134,"end":4618.131,"text":"可能都在發展是遙不可及的東西我們不能把國家的能源放在一個遙不可及而且還沒有辦法確定能夠實現的這個理想上面這個當然做要做但是不能就把這些全部寄亡在這裡"},{"start":4620.954,"end":4642.932,"text":"剛才主席也提到了這個核電這個必要性還有全世界的發展我就不在這邊贅述但是我們從這個台電退休日內的觀點來看的話就是說剛才我們的這個王總機和他也提過實際上核一二三廠"},{"start":4644.602,"end":4671.341,"text":"他的研議的工作很早前就已經把書面的資料所有的該做的事情都幾乎都做完了那我們今天談到河山廠的研議河山廠當然是最後可是他報告也是完成了只是沒有送出去因為河一廠的問題因為政府會合家園的政策實施到台電做好的報告也送不出門"},{"start":4674.432,"end":4697.122,"text":"現在我們從10月27號就前幾天的報紙又更明確的看到就是說河山廠要將明確要尋求西屋公司來協助那麼明年初才會啟動第二階段的自我安檢最快到2028年才提交運轉計畫給河安會來審查"},{"start":4700.885,"end":4711.451,"text":"也就是說如果這樣一下去的話我們如果真的審查通過的話這時程我們看估計至少要一年吧可能是三四年以後的事情"},{"start":4714.075,"end":4735.605,"text":"所以我在這邊呼籲台電應該盡快把所謂的到底自我安檢的一些內容計畫提供給大眾來看包含它的經費到底為什麼需要做一到兩年的時間這是我沒辦法理解"},{"start":4736.886,"end":4760.962,"text":"那很多事情安檢檢查我過去的了解你可以提出申請以後再做檢查因為有些我們是美國的機組美國已經90%以上的機組都研議了他們都做那麼多了我們一樣化葫蘆就可以了他們有真的做到所有安檢都做完了才會"},{"start":4762.574,"end":4788.275,"text":"提出去跟申請研議嗎這個我個人是高度懷疑所以我希望台電能夠呼籲台電能夠盡快把它的安檢報告內容到底怎麼樣能夠提出來這樣的話讓大家來檢視看看到底是真的是需要這麼多的時間沒有第二點我想到就是說這個既然"},{"start":4789.386,"end":4804.156,"text":"我們台電的曾董事長也正式的對外宣布就是說三個核電廠都要做安檢那麼這個有結果以後再跟"},{"start":4805.632,"end":4832.763,"text":"大家提出來一個報告但是我認為就是說目前我知道合一廠已經有部分的設備已經拆除了不是核反應器的部分是發電設備的部分已經拆除了拆除了以後這個將來當然如果要重啟的話當然可以再買新的設備來安裝了這是沒問題的可是會多浪費錢所以我認為就是說在這一段我們自我安檢的期間"},{"start":4833.823,"end":4848.559,"text":"台電不應該再拆除核電廠的任何設備應該把它保留下來等到有結果以後再來看後續怎麼走這是我一個很誠懇的呼籲第三點還有一點就是說核三廠要重啟"},{"start":4849.42,"end":4869.753,"text":"我們知道沒有核燃料大家知道現在裡面的電廠裡面三合電廠都沒有可以充其核燃料這個需要採購 重新採購採購有它的時程我們從原料的黃餅我們就講原料釉的採購到原料釉釉釉拿去做轉化到濃縮"},{"start":4870.774,"end":4893.491,"text":"到最後找燃料製造廠家來做最後的燃料製造這個都需要時間這我想可能都是要超過一年甚至到兩年然後還要運輸到我們電廠來這個需要很多的時間那麼是不是台電有所準備那麼這一部分當然有牽涉到預算的問題那麼台電會"},{"start":4897.85,"end":4918.314,"text":"有沒有什麼計畫什麼時候來啟動這一個採購的計畫那我不曉得現在的合約有沒有合約如果你要去公開採購的話要公開招標採購的話要重新來的話那可能是曠日會死這是我一個呼籲是可能要台電要特別來注意以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝林文昌廠長"},{"start":4928.476,"end":4937.382,"text":"我们现在请爱荷华州立大学合工所博士贺立伟先生发言"},{"start":4953.066,"end":4963.748,"text":"大家早安我是贺立伟我在这边有几点向各位报告第一点这是有关于何安无鱼的"},{"start":4971.152,"end":4991.519,"text":"第一点是有关于核安无语的前提我们大概回溯一下我国三座核电厂还有新建到一半的核四这么多年来所发生的弊案违法违规的案件针对已经定验的"},{"start":4992.591,"end":5012.701,"text":"还有违规的已经处罚完成的对这些违法违规的案件我们是不是要追踪追溯它对核安的影响我举个最简单的例子就前几个月核二厂陈厂长在这边"},{"start":5013.903,"end":5040.336,"text":"那個廠長雖然他在核肺核輻射的SCADA系統上的舞弊雖然他好像現在還在受壓當中但是司法的歸司法但是在這種核子核胺工程背後弊案對核胺影響有多大我們似乎至少我個人沒有看到有很嚴肅的去追溯"},{"start":5042.557,"end":5069.187,"text":"那根据监察院的资料呢何时有发生过多少件超过两千件超过两千件的违法违规的事情那违法的案件还有一个案件一个案子就七个人被判刑最终的判了12年很可能现在还是牢里面那在这个违法背后对河安的影响多大"},{"start":5070.311,"end":5090.093,"text":"就像我刚刚提的,虽然核二厂判刑还没有定议,可能矿业费13年5年,不知道什么时候定议,但是它对核辐射是一个对辐射侦测的神经系统,却在这个神经系统里面贪污。"},{"start":5091.601,"end":5118.681,"text":"这对我来讲是非常可怕的事情所以我在这边呼吁我的学长何安会主委我们是同一个学校出来是不是能够针对这些贪腐案件背后对何安的影响做个追溯不管你三个核电厂要重启也好核市场要继续盖下去也好是不是先对这些弊案"},{"start":5119.676,"end":5141.736,"text":"做一个完整的追溯还要编多少预算来补强这些因为弊案造成的核安影响这笔钱不管多少亿当事人是不是要查封他财产不能说个人的贪污结果是全民买单这是司法不正义的"},{"start":5142.922,"end":5167.915,"text":"这是我的第一点就是说这些因为贪腐造成对河安的影响要有完整的补救措施河安的补救措施第二点有关于民众共识方面那么元仁会就是现在的河安会在几年前曾经发包了八千多万元给清华大学"},{"start":5169.181,"end":5197.358,"text":"有个三个核能安全针对我国核电厂有做个核能安全的一个分析报告书这个报告书结案以后监察院曾经对人能会提出了纠正案这个纠正案的结论是说这个报告结案后就从此诉诸高歌罚人问津我个人是核商厂"},{"start":5198.055,"end":5211.736,"text":"的核安委员之一就监督核安委员之一那么我也曾经请教核商厂的主管高厂长说这三份报告请问核商厂有没有拿来做参考"},{"start":5213.482,"end":5239.864,"text":"那个厂长在会议上说毫无所惜那么在这边也就是期盼我们的核安会能够针对这三份报告花了八千多万将近九千万元所完成的报告好好的来做宣传做宣扬向三个核电厂"},{"start":5241.854,"end":5266.114,"text":"到底里面所写的东西核电厂有没有采用人民知不知道里面的内容这三份报告我个人是读得非常的详细当初监察院有请我帮忙看看这三份报告的内容如何那我也写过一些我个人的意见在里面OK"},{"start":5268.353,"end":5291.888,"text":"下面就说我国的核能安全号称有一个好像是一个护身符叫做断然处置措施这个断然处置措施当然是早年的元仁会也是我一个老同事主要所主持的"},{"start":5292.928,"end":5317.179,"text":"一个廖博士他个人也说这并不是万无一失那可是呢在最近呢有清大的教授在各个媒体就说这个断然处置措施不是盖一个深水池在山顶上百来公尺的那个海拔比较高很高的地方有一个深水池就是万一那个"},{"start":5318.439,"end":5332.791,"text":"那个发电机被海水冲走它就可以利用地心引力把那个水灌到核电厂里面那现在三座核电厂都已经除异了那这个深水池它的抗震能力远远低于"},{"start":5334.028,"end":5348.619,"text":"河岛区的抗战能力万一发生个地震这个深水池垮了反而土石流会不会把正在厨艺当中的核电厂被土石流掩盖这个我们一定要"},{"start":5349.5,"end":5364.115,"text":"但是这位教授又说世界各个核电国家诸多的核电国家都采用我们的方法但是我也查了一下并没有任何一个国家有盖着深水器的"},{"start":5365.529,"end":5386.509,"text":"就算有蓋 那麼智慧財產權有沒有跟我們用納稅人錢所開發出來的這套方法有沒有確認以上就是我這幾點的一點小小的意見 謝謝各位謝謝賀利維博士的發言"},{"start":5396.052,"end":5403.664,"text":"我們現在請陳中順副研究員他是中華經濟研究院綠色經驗中心的副研究員 謝謝"},{"start":5409.489,"end":5429.79,"text":"各位好,我是中經院副研究員陳中順,我的專長是在於專門研究先進的這些潛在能源技術,以及在我們國家的電力配比跟一些電價的研究。我今天的題目是要談的是,台灣如果需要核電的話,這次的研議是一次個關鍵。"},{"start":5432.383,"end":5448.853,"text":"好那因為時間有限那我就直接講一個重點就是說在今天各位長官的報告裡其實我們沒有看到的是實際我們想要知道是執行的規劃還有目前執行的進度還有期程以及預算"},{"start":5449.773,"end":5464.199,"text":"那我想如果未來有機會是希望能夠有這些東西我們才好去追蹤整個計劃的進度的情形才能夠配合這次我們要談的這些資訊的透明化跟法治化"},{"start":5465.782,"end":5491.92,"text":"那我就開始來做一次我今天的報告那這個不能免俗的我想要提一下是能源政策一定是隨著時間必須與時俱進的過去我們在談的是RE100那現在就像剛剛劉委員提到的整個世界現在在談的是CFE247就是全時的低碳電力那這個規劃呢這個想法呢其實是來自於聯合國"},{"start":5493.181,"end":5501.593,"text":"也獲得了國際再生能源聯盟的承諾事實上他們已經把核電列為未來必要的一個選項"},{"start":5504.928,"end":5523.508,"text":"核電本身它是一個便宜又穩定、乾淨的電力你可以看到在台灣的美國商會、歐洲商會甚至日本工商會近期都相對對台灣的電力穩定提出了一些質疑更不要說我們台灣另外的這些工商會還有甚至半導體協會有一個數據跟各位分享"},{"start":5527.012,"end":5535.156,"text":"就是其實各位知道在這四年以來台灣最大的那一家IC廠它總共支援了台電27次的降載發電機的動用數目大概超近6000次"},{"start":5541.524,"end":5567.254,"text":"最大的鋼鐵公司光今年一年它就配合台電降載了28次所以當有人跟你說不缺電的時候你要想想為什麼這些工商會他會有這個意見核電廠核三一部機大概產生的電力是80億度大概就等於台灣如果有2GW的太陽光電加上1.5GW的離岸風電所產生的電力"},{"start":5569.875,"end":5592.186,"text":"那一年呢它就可以為台灣節如果用核電來代替太陽光電的話一年可以節省338億元也就是說如果我們把四部核二核三的機組都啟動的話一年可以為台電節省1352億元那只要兩年台電的虧損2000億的虧損就可以折抵抵回來了那為什麼會這樣呢"},{"start":5593.507,"end":5616.297,"text":"因為目前全世界大概有60座的核反應器都已經完成了研議佔總數的15%那在IEA的報告裡面在日本產經省的報告裡也都告訴你2040年的時候即使到2040年研議都會是所有可調度積碳電力裡面最便宜的一種方式"},{"start":5617.847,"end":5636.594,"text":"那臺灣的表現在河岸上一直都是非常好的我相信在座的我的前輩大家都很知道然後我們的表現大概在你可以看到在這個我們的設備使用率方面大概都有九成是超過整個國際的平均值的那以河山同樣的機組的研議計畫來說光美國法國就超過了十種"},{"start":5640.755,"end":5648.268,"text":"而超过了十步以上所以这是一个有迹可循的可以做的事情它并不是一个重新再来起的"},{"start":5649.639,"end":5670.201,"text":"那我们如果谈到研疫的话当然它还是会有一些风险我列出五个风险那其中我们今天最重要的是法规的风险我们今天已经看到了在审核办法方面河安会已经做了很大的进步但其他的方面还有很多要做的那这里我也希望河安会能够学习能源署"},{"start":5670.922,"end":5695.447,"text":"他們在聯緣署的做法很有趣只要任何的政策有一些新的計畫風吹草動他都會發新聞稿希望能夠河岸會這邊不要只要等到事情都結束之後才告訴大家那您可以經常的發新聞稿讓大家知道整個進度這件事情不是因為我們要追蹤更重要的是我們希望能夠建立河岸會的能見度"},{"start":5696.287,"end":5711.547,"text":"還有核安會在群眾之間的公信力在過去原能會的時代我曾經說過我在核研所工作在原能會的核研所工作結果別人回答我的是說你講的是原住民委員會嗎所以"},{"start":5712.168,"end":5727.15,"text":"那個時候的原能會其實很不被大家看見希望未來的核安會能夠有很大的改進那在另外一方面我們也必須承認在這個核廢料的部分是大家都需要解決的無論未來有沒有核電"},{"start":5728.331,"end":5753.358,"text":"核廢料我們都需要來共同解決那最重要的是高放條例其實到現在都還沒有那沒有高放條例你怎麼樣往下做這是我們一定要繼續追蹤的事實上在今年的應該是在7月的時候明天版的高放條例都已經出來了草案都出來了所以我希望在政府這方面也能夠有一些更快的進度告訴大家情況是什麼"},{"start":5754.498,"end":5774.36,"text":"那在人力培育的方面這邊我列了很多那今天因為比較細沒有時間講那我主要是想要講的是說如果你沒有專業的人力你要怎麼去談河安呢所以這個部分希望河安會跟台電這邊都能夠有更好的規劃讓大家能夠熟了解"},{"start":5776.243,"end":5804.013,"text":"那最後就是這個總統一直在提的SNRSNR這件事情它並不能解決我們河岸現在的問題也不能夠解決我們能源的問題目前來說你現在要做的這件事情只是一個在政治上的緩兵直擊我希望我們認真的面對這個問題然後把SNR視為中長期的選項那短期之內還是把河岸還是把研議做好"},{"start":5804.873,"end":5824.694,"text":"那這邊是我想要跟各位分享的一件事情剛剛郭委員有提到台灣的地震很多可是你看看我們的所有的新能源技術無論你是要做氫能還是你要做CCS還是你要做核能還是你要做太陽光點都需要土地而且呢氫能在儲存的時候它是氣體"},{"start":5827.858,"end":5840.884,"text":"CCS儲存的時候它將近一體請再給我30秒然後在核廢料儲存的時候它是固體那您可以想想看到底哪一種是相對安全在面對地震的時候"},{"start":5843.282,"end":5870.081,"text":"最後也就是我想用聖岩師父的說法河岸這件事已經纏繞台灣40年了我們該面對的去面對它接受它然後處理它最後再放下它好 這是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝陳中順副研究員請回座我們現在請氣候先鋒者聯盟的發起人楊家法先生發言"},{"start":5881.347,"end":5907.434,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位先進還有各位專家大家好我是楊家法我今天要講的是就是我對於這個台灣我自己認為是現在是進入一個台灣新核能時代就是從5月13號核管法修法之後台灣已經進入一個新的一個核能的時代"},{"start":5908.396,"end":5929.508,"text":"核能慢一天啟動就多一天損失慢一天啟動就多一天損失我先從我們的這個簡報我先講一下好了就是今年5月13號我們的核管法就是核質反應器設施管制法第6條的修正案"},{"start":5930.694,"end":5957.887,"text":"就是三讀通過之後我們就已經知道說現在研議已經不必提前五年來申請就是我們的執照屆期之後就可以去申請說換發新的運轉執照那我認為我們就是要快不要再等只要多慢一點啟動就是台灣的損失我們先來談空氣品質好了我相信這是許多人目前最關注的"},{"start":5959.329,"end":5986.32,"text":"我們可以看到這個簡報就是當空瓶不加的時候我們政府會有一些措施配套的措施那像台電的話就會有一個友善降載當然還有自主降載友善降載就是說當空氣品質打到橘色的時候就是AQI大於100的時候會實施這個友善降載那我舉個例子給大家看"},{"start":5988.257,"end":6016.173,"text":"今年的7月23就是大概兩三個月前那天的空氣品質非常不好我們看到簡報上面中部的話很多地方已經橘燈甚至紅燈那我這邊看到的是給大家看的是這個台中中火我們要友善降載可是你看到這幾個電廠的這個發電的曲線他沒有降大家可以看一下沒有一個是降的"},{"start":6017.725,"end":6047.074,"text":"都是往上 就是從下午之後一直往上 一直到晚上都是火力全開就是他9個機組全部都是往上的另外一個是在大修7月23號中部的下午的時候是橘色的提醒 到了晚上是紅色的警示就是空品非常的糟糕那我們的火力 中火這邊完全是沒有辦法降災"},{"start":6049.724,"end":6078.329,"text":"那台電也想有線降載但是現實就是做不到就是做不到因為我們沒有其他的替代就是你到下午到晚上的時候這段時間全部都靠火力你煤都減不下來更別說天然氣你看一下這個我自己上網抓的這個曲線這是天然氣的一個發電的曲線越晚是越高剛剛前一張是中火"},{"start":6079.793,"end":6107.487,"text":"中火是完全沒有在降因為它沒降不下來的那我講這個並不是說台電不努力啊是他沒辦法做到那我今天站在這裡我就要問下面這個幾個問題我們蓋這麼多的光電這麼多的風電目前投入的錢超過一兆我們花了這麼多錢去做"},{"start":6108.787,"end":6135.721,"text":"蓋這些天然氣的設施目前已經超過2000億了結果在空品不佳的時候你連燒煤都降不下來你到底在搞什麼更別說你天然氣每個月都在增加這原因是什麼備轉容量率不夠你空品惡化的時候你就不用去想要降載了9月19號也是一個例子"},{"start":6137.726,"end":6163.256,"text":"當天台電的官網上面備準容量率是10.5%綠燈 供電非常充裕 綠燈那我們看到一樣那天的那個台中這邊跑到橘燈了 空瓶跑到橘燈了你是不是要友善降載結果沒有他在反而是在開啟台中的緊急汽渦輪合二合三的緊急汽渦輪"},{"start":6165.823,"end":6194.392,"text":"你的備準能量率有10.5%怎麼把這些緊急機組都開下去跟大家講我們自己我們自己有做網頁我們去觀察這個實際的備準能量率當天只有5.7%最低的時候5.7%所以他當然要去開啟這些緊急的機組不得不啊並不是你看到的那個綠燈好不好並不是"},{"start":6197.574,"end":6224.047,"text":"那如果今天我們核三沒有除役我們讓他延役的話9月19號我們就可以多4.8%的備轉容量根本就不用這樣匆匆忙忙去開那些緊急的機組如果你把核二核三都開下來可以多9.8%的備轉容量也就是當天實際上會有15.5%以上的備轉容量那就是真的綠燈了"},{"start":6226.313,"end":6250.391,"text":"但是我們不是啊 我們把河農關掉之後 其實台電工廠上看到的備轉容量都是只有日間封 他沒有夜間的沒辦法誠實的告訴大家 真的是到了傍晚 你看4點半就剩5.7%了不好意思 我今天這個我從來講快一點好 那為什麼河農蔓延起動就是台灣的損失我們來看中火"},{"start":6252.111,"end":6280.225,"text":"過去這5個月從5月17號河山除役之後台中電廠的用煤量較去年同期增加了15.9萬噸這是政策的錯誤這不是中火的人的錯這是政策錯誤叫台電背鍋政府不敢跟你講煤燒那麼多哪有在減煤今年至少今年沒有這5個月都沒有看減碳看世界的電力碳排地圖"},{"start":6282.196,"end":6303.857,"text":"台灣其實已經被中國大陸超車了我們跟沙烏地亞國其實差不多我們的排名大概世界207名 206名我們可以去看這個低碳力的這個網站這個創辦人在我們台下我們會有可以去看這個東西我們台灣的排名其實是後段班我們不好意思 我再借30秒"},{"start":6306.889,"end":6320.694,"text":"我簡單講一下如果我們要去追上我們就必須要把這個核能啟用不然台灣就是繼續沉淪也沒辦法回應接下來AI時代的用電需求好謝謝主席好謝謝楊佳法發起人我們現在請綠色公民行動聯盟的秘書長崔素心發言"},{"start":6346.26,"end":6365.615,"text":"好 各位大家好那我们今天在谈这个核能治理法治我们刚刚一直在听大家讲这个延逸或者是重启或者是换照但我们真的觉得大家如果真的在在乎核能的问题的话不应该只谈核能运转的问题应该要谈核能安全的问题"},{"start":6366.135,"end":6379.081,"text":"因為這才是社會溝通大家最最關心也是民眾最關鍵認為我們應該要以安全作為最優先的考量我相信這是沒有人反對的不管你的立場或是不管大家對於任何能源的取向的選擇"},{"start":6380.165,"end":6400.652,"text":"那我们还是认为说在核管法修法之后其实现行核能法制在修订上一直有一些无法因应最新形式的漏洞我们已经跟核安会做了很多次的建议但是我们觉得好像并没有获得重视那我们现在看到在核管法修法之后核安会就依法必须要做核子反应器设施运转执照的申请审核办法"},{"start":6401.132,"end":6423.466,"text":"那目前需要換照的話 需要申請老化的評估分析 輻射一帖查核 耐震安全評估的說明但我們認為現行的這五項其實是不夠的那當然我們認為透明跟進入定期的追蹤報告 這一定很重要 我們絕對同意但是我們覺得光這五項並不夠我們認為這現行法制還沒有辦法含掛目前極端氣候跟軍事衝突的這個風險"},{"start":6425.328,"end":6442.861,"text":"所以我們對這邊當然有一些建議尤其是在近年來俄烏戰爭給大家啟示還有台灣現在的國際地位認知的風險我們認為其實必須要立院跟核安會經濟部都必須要認真地去思考國家安全跟核能安全跟能源韌性的一個問題"},{"start":6445.443,"end":6462.399,"text":"那其實從2022年開始其實國際或歐洲就一直在討論到底烏克蘭戰爭帶來什麼樣新的核能安全疑慮但是我覺得像這樣的思考都沒有被帶進我們國家核能安全的這個思考跟治理裡面包含其實像在德國的話他們也認為核電廠設計是無法抵禦軍事攻擊的"},{"start":6464.941,"end":6492.206,"text":"可是呢大家都會說國際法說會禁止在核電廠周圍發動這種戰爭的敵對的行動事實上這個國際規則其實是沒有人在遵守我們可以看到俄羅斯一開戰他就對車諾比核電廠的遺址對烏克蘭的核電廠進行攻擊甚至是佔領現在札普羅勒就在俄羅斯的佔領之下那在我們來看其實連美國他都不見得遵守這個他在對於這個中東的這個轟炸的時候他也是在這個核設施所以其實"},{"start":6493.246,"end":6516.622,"text":"本來核能跟戰爭其實這個東西是必須要在大陸考量而不是說能假裝在鴕鳥裡面看不到的那世界上也沒有任何的民用核電廠是在為戰爭時期運作而設計的所以其實在戰爭時期或在戰爭衝突威脅之下核能的安全跟保安的問題其實我們必須要另外的做嚴謹的考量如果這些保障沒有辦法確保的話那未來我們大家可能將會陷入"},{"start":6517.871,"end":6539.423,"text":"這是最新的核能風險裡面那不管是從2022年到現在大家都可以說到現在還有這樣的風險嗎但是我覺得大家不能看到說如果沒有發生核災就叫做沒風險如果沒有發生核災這個都是很多的好運在這裡面那我們可以到2025年10月1號其實札幌羅勒核電廠又有一次斷電危機這都已經說不清是第幾次了"},{"start":6540.163,"end":6559.995,"text":"那哲瑞司機就說這個脫離電網運作其實是可能是有危急的狀況然後這個當然不只是威脅的是烏克蘭甚至整個歐洲都會受到威脅那一直等到什麼時候呢大概接近一個月之後扎破羅伊核電廠才回復聯外的電網所以這樣的危機這樣的威脅是存在的我們台灣在做這個"},{"start":6561.596,"end":6571.664,"text":"核電安全的時候我們是不是有考慮假設我們也因為各種不可能天災或是戰爭的人禍那我們會聯絡電腦斷掉一個月以上可以因應嗎我們有這樣的緊急方案嗎"},{"start":6574.262,"end":6591.981,"text":"所以在這邊我們的第一個建議是應該要增訂國安風險的緊急方案那這個是在國際上其實也有相關的智庫跟報告可以參考的那台灣的電源政治敏感任何的這個我們核電廠的連外電網電系統中斷都可能會引發嚴重的核子事故構成國家安全的風險"},{"start":6593.953,"end":6613.823,"text":"那我們這邊當然有提供一些具體的應變措施那這個當然會希望我們相關單位能夠參考包含在軍事攻擊的應變方案包含在軍事攻擊製造勞工與人員的安全因為其實在俄羅斯他甚至去綁架札普羅勒的員工強迫他們為他工作這樣還有包含戰區的畫設我們是不是在電廠周圍應該要畫設非戰區避免炮彈波及"},{"start":6617.725,"end":6626.281,"text":"那這些我們都覺得是非常具體的東西但我們從來沒有看到我們的核安單位為這個來做過公開的說明包括如果有公聽問我真的會希望是這個題目"},{"start":6628.493,"end":6655.327,"text":"那再來就是氣候變遷的問題其實就連這個美國政府的問責署都有對NRC提出建議認為他們應該要採取行動充分考慮氣候變遷的潛在影響包含氣候變遷這些高溫 乾旱 野火 洪水 颶風海平面上升或是極端寒冷天勢事件都會對核電廠造成風險這些本來就是一個最新的情勢可是我們在目前我們的核安能治理的法則上也沒有看到這樣的一個評估"},{"start":6658.142,"end":6675.747,"text":"所以我們第二個建議是我們認為應該要納入極端氣候的影響評估報告那針對這些對於核電廠運轉的實質威脅要怎麼樣應變應對方案那如果我們這次在這種重啟或換照審核裡面都沒有納入這些的話我們會覺得不管是社會溝通或台灣核案自己都沒辦法跟國外接軌"},{"start":6676.767,"end":6695.943,"text":"那還有一個部分是第三個建議是跟臺灣比較切身相關的問題因為我們臺灣是在板塊在這個地震帶上所以我們認為原本的地震危害分析說明似乎太過輕易了我們認為我們認為應該改成地震危害分析能夠更專業一些更跟國際接軌一些"},{"start":6696.383,"end":6710.297,"text":"那這是因為在臺灣我們的是屬於環太平洋地質在我們風險其實比其他國家設置核電廠還要大所以我們認為在換造過程當中做地震危害分析來全方位的來呈現長子實踐地震的前世是非常重要的"},{"start":6711.687,"end":6740.448,"text":"那後來當然有包含今天工程會有討論的一些議題我們稍微有準備了一下包含我們對於新核能的這個發展現況我們認為新核能發展它只是一個借用剛剛我們前面講者來講好像是一個過於遙遠不切實際的一個期待所以其實我們覺得期待可以或者是研究可以但是呢當它真的要落實要在台灣上發展的時候我們覺得需要有更多更多的審慎評估因為它在短期內是無法來解決台灣的能源問題的"},{"start":6742.389,"end":6755.555,"text":"那金融時報也說其實現在這樣的一個我們認為應該算是一個新創世界它可能會失敗甚至它可能是一個最昂貴的能源它還在試錯階段甚至在各國裡面監察的安全的法案也都還沒有完全的成熟"},{"start":6757.981,"end":6782.481,"text":"那再来就是核电人才的部分其实我觉得台湾过去我们在核能人才的培育上都是在这个新建跟营运上但是目前核电厂其实在全球许多核电厂也都已经老化进入厨艺的阶段所以我们认为人才在做厨艺跟核废的人才培训也非常重要好 谢谢大家好 谢谢崔素心秘书长"},{"start":6784.622,"end":6787.939,"text":"我們現在請新北市議會的議員林秉佑先生"},{"start":6800.143,"end":6815.402,"text":"主席委員 各位先進 大家好我應該是在場所有的專家學者裡面最沒有核能相關經驗的一個專家但我今天來代表新北市是因為整個台灣的核電廠裡面包含沒有運轉的核四裡面"},{"start":6816.002,"end":6832.703,"text":"有兩座現在還在新北市我要分享的就是說在所有的問題當中尤其是扣合今天的主題就是如何透明化因為其實在我們新北市議會每當當有核能的議題在討論的時候其實我們的議員其實所獲得的資訊是非常的少"},{"start":6833.183,"end":6853.417,"text":"那大家會去想要影響這個核能對民意的這個結果的時候通常只有一個方法就是我們會去對市長要他要求他做一個表態那我覺得其實不是一個很健康的做法就是因為事實上是就我們地方政府跟中央的分工來講地方政府跟中央的分工並沒有很明確的在這些法規裡面去討論說該做什麼"},{"start":6854.898,"end":6873.599,"text":"那最後就導致一個現象就是我們會在整個審議的過程當中不管他是附屬的設施或是像這個核設施的這個運轉當中他最後還是會有地方政府權責的部分就像我們之前的這個幹事儲存的部分新北市政府就曾經用行政手段去干預了這個水保的這個許可長達11年"},{"start":6875.581,"end":6898.004,"text":"那單純一個水保設施就可以讓它延長11年的話那回到這個所謂核反應器的部分它是會更長的時間那就這些行政的錯舉來講如果沒有溝通的清晰的一個情況不是單純對地方政府而是對所有的民意代表甚至400萬的新北市市民那當然屏東也是一樣就是說對基層的這些百姓的溝通如果沒有到位的話"},{"start":6898.504,"end":6922.854,"text":"我們透過其他方式去干預這些我們現在希望推動的這種核電研議的進程其實會有很大負面的影響那包含我們剛剛談到其他很多不同的時程不管是研議20年那SMR的推進等等這些如果交錯去總和評估來看的話事實上都會認為說這個研議剛剛有前輩提到這個是新核能時代其實我們談的還是舊核能舊技術舊的這些做法"},{"start":6923.214,"end":6943.505,"text":"那是不是跟他中間會有一個交錯就是關鍵就在於前面有另外一位前輩提到就是我們如何去設定這個進程因為這些進程裡面只有在法規裡面簡單的講說我可以延幾年延幾年但是我後面推動包含台電自己在設定他的這個安全評估他就已經花了兩年的時間那這個兩年之後再過一段時間再過一段時間"},{"start":6945.026,"end":6966.427,"text":"人家美国已经研译了这么长的时间它前面已经完成了那等到台湾能够完成研译再去让它运转起来的时候是不是新的技术其实已经到位了我觉得这些时间成本是在这些讨论里面比较没有去讨论到的那更何况是如果我们不再加强这段期间的沟通我其实很想讲一件事情就是如果我们不知道要对谁沟通的话你怎么知道你要培育什么样的人才"},{"start":6967.108,"end":6985.881,"text":"我們現在其實面臨非常非常嚴重的問題就是我們在市議會面臨群眾的壓力很多的基層的民眾雖然我們不是直接在這個所謂可以收到回饋金的範圍但是大家都很清楚在可能的核安的風險之下大家對福島的事件這個歷歷在目現在還看到很多的紀錄片"},{"start":6986.681,"end":7015.428,"text":"大家在這種經驗之下大家都會去思考自身安危問題的時候我們很難有充分的資訊去對他們溝通的時候最後他就會形成一個政治問題導致我們在議會把這些壓力轉押給市長之後他採取的行政措施我講的就是最後如果沒有明確的分工或設定時限的話他最後就是會成為一個無限期延在行政錯舉當中或是政治決策當中無限期延宕的一個情況就是因為沒有人能夠承擔這個所以在這個部分就是我覺得"},{"start":7016.728,"end":7044.19,"text":"回到我們這個主題就是說我想強調的是對地方的溝通還有對中央政府跟地方政府的分工這件事情上其他事務上都有地方制度法去規範但是在這件事情上我覺得地方政府的角色是很模糊的甚至他在很多問題的審議上他並沒有去給他期限到最後台電是跟新北市政府是用訴訟的方式解決那現在合一的部分已經解決合二到現在還在訴訟所以我現在講的只是一個幹事組的部分就已經如此的話"},{"start":7044.97,"end":7072.738,"text":"那我們怎麼去談核反應器的部分所以我覺得這個是希望能夠在這次會議中提供給大家參考那最後我還是要講一個在前面我自己一個很大的感觸就是說今天台灣的能源的配比其實是什麼能源都要有不會說你核電比較好所以其他的能源就不需要我當然我聽到很多其他的說法好像就是核電就是便宜然後成本最低然後最安全最穩定然後去攻擊綠能這些其他的能源的類型我認為這是非常不對勁"},{"start":7073.458,"end":7101.172,"text":"因為台灣的能源不會只需要一種今天台灣人再怎麼支持核電全世界再怎麼支持核電的法國他也不過比例就70%左右所以我覺得用這種做法其實不會讓我們台灣未來的這個能源的構成或是能源的供應會更健康所以我希望就是說就是當大家在講綠電貴的時候有時候我們講這個網路上的一種算是一種笑話貴不是你的問題貴不是我的問題是你的問題"},{"start":7103.431,"end":7119.376,"text":"我們在講剛剛那個台灣最大的IC公司他最後買的電他還是去買RE100的用電他也不是買核電我覺得這些事情不能混在一起講我們居然要講核電是提供極窄用電的話那就不要把這些跟綠電或是減碳盤在一起我自己在新北市議會的時候我是在這個"},{"start":7120.696,"end":7146.148,"text":"環保相關的委員會裡面我們正在談我們花這麼多錢去講減碳的事情可是實際上全台灣所的叛台在全世界佔的比例是極少極少我們做這麼多的努力花了這麼多錢對全世界影響是微乎其微甚至對台灣的氣候影響是微乎其微的情況之下我們真的要花這些經費嗎還是要把這些錢用在真正我們關注的事情上也就是如果今天我們關注的是能源的供應國家安全的問題的話那就用這個問題來談而不是把所有"},{"start":7146.448,"end":7175.946,"text":"流行的詞語標籤全部貼在一個正向貼在核能上好像它就能夠解決所有的問題好像它是一個萬能藥其實不是我認為很多東西核能它就是解決一件事情就是我們是不是有的確能源不足的狀況如果它可以做到那我們就支持它而不是因為它能減碳因為它便宜因為它怎麼樣它就來做所有的能源都一樣它有它的優點有它的缺點那我覺得應該是互相去均衡這些要素才對而不是今天就是好像因為綠電比較貴然後又緩不濟急所以我們才支持核電"},{"start":7176.206,"end":7195.557,"text":"其實不能這樣去談所以今天就這些我就簡單的去跟大家分享那還是希望就是說如果未來在這些資訊上能夠更透明的時候尤其是它應該要法制化的對地方政府或是地方會做報告讓我們有更多的這個資訊能夠跟民眾做溝通才能夠順利的推動這個核電的研議以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝林秉佑議座"},{"start":7202.557,"end":7204.407,"text":"我們現在請何能留言終結者創辦人黃士修發言"},{"start":7214.929,"end":7241.625,"text":"各位好 我是黃士修今天很高興來到這個公聽會然後有這種正反意見交鋒的機會所以我回答一下前幾位講者講的一些意見首先其實今天一開場就提到了賴慶德總統講到核能必須要有三個原則核安無虞 核廢有解跟社會共識在核安無虞和核廢有解這兩點上是這40年來美國政府所擔保的"},{"start":7242.225,"end":7269.388,"text":"事實上在25年前也就是西元2000年陳水扁總統上台的時候也因為反核 宣稱核廢料無解使得美國政府震怒我在2021年核四公投的辯論會上秀了那一張聯合報當年的簡報所以我非常的悲哀就是在25年後的今天竟然還有人在台灣這樣質疑美國 反美 疑美"},{"start":7270.109,"end":7288.077,"text":"就說核廢料無解我們25年前發生的事現在還要再炒真的很悲哀另外在今天公聽會我看到會議附件的三個版本的修法草案上其實都提到的關鍵就是核能是綠能那當然我知道在這幾年反核方是打死不接受的"},{"start":7288.937,"end":7311.911,"text":"其實我一直很困惑就是你們為什麼不承認這個國際的現實呢你們承認核能是綠能這五個字會讓人們掉一塊肉嗎那事實上在今年的核三公投的時候全國肺核行動平台全肺台的甘崇偉作為反核方的代表他犯了一個戰略的失誤就是他終於承認歐盟認定核能是綠能"},{"start":7313.091,"end":7341.874,"text":"那但核三就不是那为什么不是呢我也被我也抓他的这个语病我就说你不觉得奇怪吗原来是因为反核方多年卡住核废料的处理所以就变成了核能在欧盟是绿能在国际上是绿能但核三发的电因为反核方把你的手脚砍了在嫌你不会走路但是只要我们能够解决核废料向国际方解决核废料的方法那"},{"start":7342.134,"end":7365.752,"text":"核三发的电或核一二三四发的电当然是绿能那我刚刚提到了这个核废有解这件事情那今天绿盟的崔素心秘书长也在场其实在绿盟2013年的核四报告中他们就已经知道核废是有解的而且包含核废处理核电厂甚至当时的核四成本只要一块三真的很便宜"},{"start":7366.432,"end":7390.421,"text":"这是当年洪森汉非常痛恨我的一个原因不过他这几年也不太讲核能了逃去当劳动部长之后就更不讲了还有另外一个就是刚刚贺立伟博士提到了他说台电有一些弊案有弊案就是刑法追究刑法判刑至于会不会影响核安你当这几十年来台电每年的安检以及我们的原能会核安会是吃素的吗"},{"start":7391.241,"end":7416.656,"text":"何立委博士完全不理解河安的管制以及相關的審查那我請問你啊你幾年前冒充清大河公教授那依我大中華民國律例冒充清大河公教授該當何罪是否會影響你在河山監督委員會的專業評估另外賀博士剛剛提到了深水池是否會造成潰堤我想必你是看到近來花蓮的災情想要來藉機發酵那我來"},{"start":7419.958,"end":7437.029,"text":"跟你科普一下我刚花了10秒钟的时间用手机找到了一份台电的报告台电说在日本福岛核灾后这个深水池有两座5万吨总共10万吨的深水池这10万吨的深水池呢"},{"start":7438.03,"end":7461.982,"text":"它其實蓋得相當好然後來我念一下這個報告它裡面有一段提到說這個設置兩座5萬噸深水池雖然說它比場區還要高但兩地之間有自然高地屏障隔離而且水池的西側地形低於水池基地所以地震的時候沒有因為深水池崩潰而造成池水淹入場區或土石流之疑慮"},{"start":7463.243,"end":7483.228,"text":"那我剛說了賀博士今天硬找這個題目想要想大家聯想到這個花蓮馬太安溪潰堤的可怕災情我剛說的深水池是10萬噸馬太安溪艷澀湖是9100萬噸潰堤之後到115萬噸也就是它總共流出了9000萬噸的水量"},{"start":7485.188,"end":7501.418,"text":"九千萬分之十萬九百分之一大概是千分之一賀博士我們學理工的要有點數字的概念你不要像當年2013年的時候你公佈一個什麼美國國家海洋大氣管理局NOAA什麼日本"},{"start":7502.138,"end":7520.11,"text":"核災輻射世界污染分佈圖整個太平洋無一倖免結果被我們抓包說那張圖的單位是cm公分你什麼時候看過輻射單位是公分我們學理工人竟然在這個公聽會上要秉持著科學專業另外就是郭玉琴委員我覺得我希望讚賞今天郭委員的發言"},{"start":7521.371,"end":7548.411,"text":"那刚刚提到了像是最终处置这个问题的确无论你反核或永核最终处置的选址都是我们要共同去面对也需要立法院来修法跟中央地方去协调的我非常非常赞同以及他提到了合融合合工人才以及我们技术不流失的这个部分我都非常同意委员以及他提到说我们不要把这些这个问题留给跨世代去解决那事实上在国际上"},{"start":7549.011,"end":7577.318,"text":"核废料它其实不是废料用过的核燃料90%以上都能够回收再处理提炼成新的核燃料只是说目前我们初阶钥矿所提炼的核燃料已经够用了成本相当的便宜可是像法国人他们把干式储存把用过核燃料放在郊区他们为了就是50年后100年后可以再拿出来提炼成新的燃料棒所以在外国核废料不是废料是下一代子孙的资源"},{"start":7577.558,"end":7605.945,"text":"如果你现在就把它给埋了其实在剥夺下一代子孙的资源这是一个世代不正义最后崔素欣秘书长又提到什么俄乌战争地缘政治风险等等的这个地方我们讲过很多次在河山公投辩论的时候你可以回去看我在讲林子伦那一段你们在讲什么多元分散在地民主的再生能源说战争风险你有没有想过这些再生能源在战争风险的时候是有多脆弱的"},{"start":7606.525,"end":7620.81,"text":"當然你會說那核電廠區啊那烏克蘭的核電廠啊你有沒有搞清楚那個烏克蘭的核電廠他們是在廠區外是在郊區的附近進行輕武器的交戰沒有任何一方使用了重武器去破壞核電廠"},{"start":7622.19,"end":7650.652,"text":"那事實上如果你懂得一些物理原理的話你應該要知道核電廠不會因為這樣子發生任何的事故以及我在核三公投辯論我講最後一點就是重點就是我們是要聽美國人公開警告的台灣廢核面臨的戰爭地緣政策的風險還是要聽你們這些反核洗地宅出賣台灣的這些洗地的言論謝謝好謝謝黃士修先生"},{"start":7653.629,"end":7682.242,"text":"我們現在請前行政院原能會放射性物質管理局的局長黃慶春先生發言謝謝主席各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好很高興今天有機會來參加這個公聽會因為我個人一直在放射性廢棄物管理的領域工作"},{"start":7689.31,"end":7714.7,"text":"麥克風就靠近麥克風因為我一直是在放射性廢棄物管理的領域工作所以我今天的花園會比較多著墨在放射性廢棄物的管理方面我首先要強調的因為聽了"},{"start":7718.066,"end":7732.526,"text":"台電的報告還有核安會的報告我發現事實上大家對繼續往核能這一條路走是已經很明確了那所以我想這裡就不需要再對這個"},{"start":7734.54,"end":7761.847,"text":"只提了太多的琢磨不過我要強調所以說這一次的核能的復興已經是全球第三次的核能復興這一次的核能復興的風潮是和以往不一樣的這個可以講是一個永不回頭的核能文明時代的開端另外剛才有人提到就是說"},{"start":7764.142,"end":7791.359,"text":"劣變核能到底還能夠用多久核融合的核能是不是要考慮這一點其實科技界已經有手著墨我現在給大家報告現在的看法是這樣就是現在還是劣變核能的主軸未來會劣變核能和融合核能並行"},{"start":7793.072,"end":7808.884,"text":"而且這個並行是永遠的,主要就是劣變核能所產生的氚,事實上是提供合融合核能的一個顏料,所以這一點不必要出於。"},{"start":7811.826,"end":7833.615,"text":"裂變核能和融合核能是會繼續往前走的所以現在我們去解決這個裂變核能的相關問題也是一個世代正義的問題這個是國際原子能總使在廢棄物管理方面的一個十大原則之一就是世代的正義的問題的解決"},{"start":7835.273,"end":7847.043,"text":"所以我這裡不需要再去強調美國要新增300個Gigawatt的這個事情因為這個是很明確的一個方向"},{"start":7850.117,"end":7872.903,"text":"那這個方向既然確定了那我們考慮的就是我們怎麼樣去銜接這個問題的發展怎麼往前邁進那這個在國內已經有很多專家寫者的主席的這個研究評估事實上有一條路非走不可的就是研議和重啟核電"},{"start":7874.969,"end":7899.077,"text":"為什麼因為新核能技術的發展現在還沒有完成佈置甚至監管的法規都還不完整是在佈置的前期而不是成熟的技術所以需要既有機子的銜接"},{"start":7900.171,"end":7928.8,"text":"那這個另外一個很重要的問題就是說這個銜接是對人才保存一個很重要的關鍵所以既然行政單位的報告都已經明確這個方向那我們現在為什麼還要有廚藝計畫所以我的建議第一個建議是政府現在應該明確的宣示"},{"start":7930.089,"end":7949.076,"text":"取消除疫計畫立法院也應該刪除機組拆除的相關預算這個現實就像美國總統川普一樣他上任以後就把原來拜登時候的增加200個計畫一下子就提高增加300個計畫"},{"start":7951.494,"end":7961.424,"text":"這個就是一個擔當我認為我們方向既然明確就應該要明確的宣示這個也是知性公開的一環"},{"start":7963.892,"end":7990.863,"text":"另外我也特別要在這裡對賴清德總統所提的所謂發展核能的三個條件做一些分析因為核能的發展既然是以後一個核能文明的開端這是不會回頭的燒炭 碳能源總有一天會耗盡所以依靠了"},{"start":7992.199,"end":8019.398,"text":"核能的重要性會越來越多所以這個方向如果是無疑的話那我們就要了解這個問題的解決途徑是怎麼樣子這是一個世代性的問題的解決而不是短期的障礙的排斥而已所以解決的眼光應該是要放眼的那對於"},{"start":8020.765,"end":8047.518,"text":"第一點 核安前無疑這畫面來講事實上世界核能運轉組織已經給我們很好的評比就是說台電的運轉績效一直是全世界Top四分之一的然後核電廠也沒有發生過任何三級以上的核安事件那核廢可處理"},{"start":8049.862,"end":8066.62,"text":"應該講的是可以良好的管理那這個我這個地方特別講出來我們對高放核廢和世界一樣都是目前採取儲存然後以後或許走封閉循環的路或許走直接儲置的路那這個都已經有方案"},{"start":8067.341,"end":8079.89,"text":"但是對低放的處理來講我們是全世界的典範大家看這一張圖這個是我們的檢會的成果從最高的12258桶4個機子到最後是只有170幾桶這是我們科技界和台電共同努力的結果"},{"start":8099.045,"end":8119.523,"text":"所以核會可處理,這個就像剛才黃書秀先生講的,這對科技界來講是一個很明確的事情。高階核會我們向美國雅卡山計畫的暫停,但美國為什麼還先不要增加300個機制呢?"},{"start":8123.628,"end":8146.162,"text":"因為他們確定這是可以解決的問題那他提出的就是什麼就是長期儲存還有他現在發展深孔齒制最終的目標是想要發展所謂畢氏循環何然要再用這個是一個世界的潮流也是必然會達成的一個目標因為時間的關係我"},{"start":8149.151,"end":8173.642,"text":"說好講到這裡謝謝大家好謝謝黃青慶春局長的請局長的這個發言謝謝那我們現在呢因為學者專家的跟委員的發言的都已經發言完畢我們現在請何安會的代表是主委嗎要來代表來回應謝謝"},{"start":8185.442,"end":8203.102,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進今天非常感謝大家渦輪出席也給予河岸會許多寶貴的建議與提醒河岸安全事項是要長期投入與社會信任的工作"},{"start":8204.226,"end":8233.687,"text":"核安会将继续秉持专业公正透明的原则让每一项管制作为都有据可查经得起考验有关今天委员所提核能安全核废料处理资讯公开以及与会专家提到的法治面资讯公开安全管制建议核安会会谨慎面对因应"},{"start":8236.021,"end":8265.513,"text":"未来 河岸会继续依循河岸无虞 河废有解社会共识三个大原则稳健推动各项工作同时加强与地方学界与社会各界的沟通让大家对河南安全更有信心再次感谢各位委员以先进的支持与指导河岸会一定会继续努力做到让国人安心 让社会安心谢谢大家"},{"start":8267.904,"end":8281.799,"text":"好謝謝何萬暉主委的報告但是主委想詢問一下你剛才說要完成但是有沒有個時間性尤其是目前已經有的這些資訊等等的是不是可以把頁面的更的聚焦化"},{"start":8282.885,"end":8294.722,"text":"你說那個審查時程是吧對 因為包括的是台電已經有說嘛包括的是目前的這個再運轉計畫或是說各核能電廠的現況評估報告已經"},{"start":8298.327,"end":8319.509,"text":"提出了曾請經濟部審理中那當然也許等一下會請經濟部這邊做一個回應但是我說如果零部報告竟然已經是完成了這部分是不是可以提供給提供就可以進速或等一下問台電跟經濟部台電的報告還沒送到我們這裡來如果送到我們這裡來我會很快就處理好不好"},{"start":8320.59,"end":8330.626,"text":"好OK好謝謝那現在是不是請經濟部或者是台電的人員要做一下簡短的回覆請這個市長"},{"start":8337.114,"end":8356.432,"text":"我想我们刚才本部的立场大概已经讲得很清楚基本上就是我们现在是有收到台电不过它只是一个核能就是核能电厂现况的一个报告我们现在在审理当中审理完了这个东西要等到"},{"start":8357.753,"end":8371.451,"text":"核安會的所有的一些相關的法規都已經很清楚了的時候我們才會去執行底下的一些步驟那不管無論如何我們都會去要求台電公司就是依法辦理如果法走到哪裡我們就會進行到哪裡以上 謝謝那請問一下"},{"start":8374.949,"end":8402.907,"text":"呃 這個司長這樣的台電的報告已經送到貴部當中10月中的時候才送到喔 OK喔 那預布多久會完成評估報告我們現在我們再請一些相關單位再表示意見看看我們也會跟台電再討論可能還有一些當中的內容我們要請台電公司再釐清的所以可能我們需要需要一些時間我們會盡快好 謝謝那現在請台電的副總經理要"},{"start":8404.81,"end":8416.892,"text":"要說一下嗎基本上台電會依法辦理然後會盡速完成相關的報告然後送個單位審查 以上好"},{"start":8418.542,"end":8434.351,"text":"那現在因為各個程序都已經完成那我進行的一個結論今天就首先謝謝各個專家學者還包括的一些NPO的代表還有行政官員的一個出席那我們對於"},{"start":8435.351,"end":8461.674,"text":"核能安全的相关议题特别在怎么样的对精进在它的透过法治化跟透明化的一个发展让这个对核能的议题甚至包括能源议题是非常重要的那我们也看到了一个很重要的情况是说各个专家学者凸显出来的是包括的是这些核安会的这些资讯公开透明其实不够的"},{"start":8462.675,"end":8486.973,"text":"那不夠的情況甚至就造成了一個很重要的信賴的問題包括是中央跟地方政府甚至包括民眾對於能源政策還有在整體的國家發展上面很大的一個漏洞那這個對國家的發展是不利的因此務必請核安會結合的是經濟部跟台電的把這些相關的資訊"},{"start":8488.194,"end":8509.494,"text":"提供出來只要是相關包括法制上面的部分都提出來的話該怎麼做就怎麼做不能夠再說說這是依法辦理那依法辦理如果法律上面有我甚至覺得我們未來可能要修法在一定期限之內因為美國的核安衛他們都可以再說一個重啟是大概從申請到最後的一個審查報告出來是兩年時間為什麼我們現在連時程都看不到"},{"start":8510.394,"end":8536.32,"text":"這樣的一個要求我覺得對民眾提出來並不過分對核安會的要求並不過分因為這是非常重要的當區熱電甚至剛才有專家學者是在說我們現在就是可能就RE100可是更重要的是台電事實上現在他都分到其他廠區的時候就可能有一些是因為他必須要符合整個產業鏈當中對於非碳能源的需求所以我想"},{"start":8537.06,"end":8555.755,"text":"這個部分和安會應該掌握了最新的趨勢那對於人才的培育當中也是很重要的我們就想把這樣的意見就請和安會能夠我做了這樣的總結把這個和安會就把這個意見呈現出來好那今天呢依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應與公聽會"},{"start":8559.858,"end":8578.055,"text":"終結後10日內依出席者所提供的正反意見提出公聽會的報告送交本院的全體委員及出席者第59條也規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案的參考"},{"start":8579.38,"end":8607.128,"text":"我們會把各位的發言意見及所有書面資料綜合歸納會編成冊送交本院全體委員及所有的與會貴賓最後非常感謝各位的出席今天的公聽會所提供的寶貴意見我們會審慎考量作為依法修法的一個依據謝謝各位會議結束"},{"start":8610.166,"end":8612.087,"text":"感谢观看,下次见!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}