{"error":false,"id":["169860"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":169860,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169860","日期":"2026-06-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-08T09:44:14+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-08T09:55:14+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf4a05d5bc4f1da03c83c4fc8def4090de6dd124de216d0f13cfe0a54a769e1deb3679e204ee1bbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:44:14 - 09:55:14","會議時間":"2026-06-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍老舊主要裝備汰除期程與戰力銜接配套規劃」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":4.890968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.16409375,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.377843750000004,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.478468750000005,"end":57.237218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.60846875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.164718750000006,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.04159375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.76096875,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.62471875,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.78909375,"end":90.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.30784375,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.81346875000001,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.72034375000001,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.66784375,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.46659375000002,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.35221875000002,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.22534375,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.13659375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.14471875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.81534375,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.87846875,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.34971875000002,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.32784375,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.90534375000001,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.35659375,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.56284375,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.49096875,"end":218.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.27096875,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.05971875,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.60971875,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.95971875,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.65909375,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.31596875,"end":337.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.72096875,"end":341.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.86846875000003,"end":339.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.04096875000005,"end":348.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.77471875000003,"end":344.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.60159375,"end":344.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.51659375,"end":354.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.11471875,"end":364.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.58159375,"end":381.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.16971875,"end":399.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.54659375,"end":410.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.73471875,"end":422.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.45846875,"end":423.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.25159375000004,"end":425.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.98971875,"end":426.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.69846875,"end":440.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.66659375,"end":443.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.60721875,"end":450.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.57659375000003,"end":452.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.70284375000006,"end":456.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.75284375,"end":461.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.00096875,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.97846875000005,"end":476.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.25596875,"end":486.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.25909375000003,"end":491.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.78534375000004,"end":492.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.61221875,"end":492.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.62471875000006,"end":497.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.53971875,"end":499.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.27346875,"end":503.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.58096875,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.28971875,"end":504.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.50909375000003,"end":512.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.3728437500001,"end":513.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.6384687500001,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.5359687499999,"end":546.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.30409375,"end":547.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.01284375,"end":560.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.6015937500001,"end":572.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.5278437500001,"end":582.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.4040937500001,"end":584.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.4584687500001,"end":592.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.11971875,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7734687500001,"end":603.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.0378437500001,"end":651.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.83659375,"end":650.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.56221875,"end":653.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.86971875,"end":654.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.9665937500001,"end":655.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.7509687500001,"end":661.07534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.635,"end":4.678,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長各位好"},{"start":14.171,"end":32.921,"text":"部長早安對於上個禮拜所發生的T34C的非安事故我想朝野的委員都非常的關心那我想請教一下事發到現在已經一個禮拜了我們因為他並當初這部T34C教練機他當初的設計並沒有設置這個"},{"start":41.045,"end":65.441,"text":"設計這個黑盒子的設置所以我想了解一下已經一個禮拜了我們有一個初步的調查結果出來嗎我想我們實質調查必須是嚴謹而且整滅所以我們就那邊的這個一個專案小組我們成立一個專案小組那邊的這個包括民航局、運航會還有專家學者我們會來"},{"start":68.076,"end":87.123,"text":"審慎的來執行,包括他私事集體的重建、殘骸辨識的分析還有人員的訪談等等,我們收錄梗序來收整相關的資訊來做分析OK,那我們現在這部734C因為他沒有黑盒子,會不會造成調查的困難?我想我們會就剛剛所講的這些"},{"start":96.213,"end":109.01,"text":"執行的這些程序,我們會盡量來釐清事實,因為這些都是可以來做一些交叉分析比對,那我們來找出一個確確的噪音"},{"start":109.764,"end":128.81,"text":"所以目前為止的話還是不曉得事故的原因是什麼嘛OK T-34C這個初級教練機其實就是在1985年的時候我們從美國引進來到現在已經超過40年了剛剛有提到說總共引進了多少架我印象中就是45架嘛其實41年來到40還是4544到底是幾架"},{"start":139.571,"end":155.642,"text":"44架然後從1985年到現在剛剛部長有講說第一起的這個事故是發生在民國76年一直到現在其實是發生了13起的飛安事故可是我們只損了12位的飛官"},{"start":157.483,"end":184.931,"text":"我看到的是 我看到的資料是12起那我不曉得 我看到的是12起非案事故造成12位的非官殉職那當然包含這一次我想這是國家一個很大的損失因為非官的養生其實是不容易也造成了這個非官家庭的這個很大的傷痛那當然我們是不希望就是說這個事情再發生可是T34C初期教練接畢竟他已經是"},{"start":185.851,"end":211.321,"text":"四十幾年的老機種 可是不是說它老機種它就不堪使用到目前為止我看到國防部對外界的告知說其實它整個妥善率是OK的然後它的這個機齡其實都還沒有到太儲的這個受限嘛所以我想請問一下像我們這個T34C其實它的太儲其實是不是就依據國軍無效裝備太儲作業規定來做辦理是不是是嗎"},{"start":216.244,"end":235.621,"text":"我想太儲的部分,就這個相關的主戰專備當然是要有這個符合作戰需求,這個項目有要考量那其他的這些太儲包括,就是說我們的修復的成本可能高過一定的比例等等,然後或者是說這個"},{"start":240.046,"end":267.36,"text":"最主要可能有一些消失性的傷源沒有足夠的零附件等等這些都會在我們考量的範圍之內對嘛就是我們依據的就是國軍無效裝備汰除作業規定來做辦理嘛因為剛剛部長講的其實就是剛剛我在個簡報上面所提供的譬如說汰除的分類我們有偵測性的汰除技術性的汰除譬如說偵測性的汰除譬如說部長剛才提到的不符合作戰的需求"},{"start":268.661,"end":293.38,"text":"技術性的汰除有裝備性跟妥善率它使用這個效益不佔或成本呢這個維護的成本過高或是說它的裝備的這個受限比如說你還沒有到還沒有到這個使用年限之前當然如果經過鑑定跟檢修它還是能夠達到這個原作戰性能當然是沒有辦法汰除可是已經不符合無法達到原作戰性能我們就檢討把它汰除"},{"start":294.221,"end":309.588,"text":"那甚至年限到了如果說他還是能夠使用的話我們還不得辦理太初可是我們有在看很仔細看了這個規定裡面當然如果你說T34C出急叫煉機好像"},{"start":310.348,"end":334.768,"text":"目前所看到的因為我看到國防部的這個新聞稿裡面有提到說不管它的妥善率也好其實都是OK的它的零件、雙元其實也沒有中斷那再來它的使用年限也還未到可是我一直覺得有一點就是說實在的它畢竟是40年前設計出來的這個機種它到底符不符合現在作戰的這個需求"},{"start":336.923,"end":363.803,"text":"這一點可以說明一下嗎因為它是一個因為它是一個初級的一個教練級所以主要是在對這個飛官做這個教育訓練所以在還沒有接受期的情況下當然我們要最主要就是要維護它的裝備的安全性所以我們要透過這一個剛剛講的我們對機體結構啊等等的就要做一個妥善的一個"},{"start":365.036,"end":379.906,"text":"一個維護那另外他看也要看他本身有沒有消失性的傷害影響他的安全那現今當然迄今沒有還沒有消失性傷害在T34上面所以裝備的妥善的這個部分我們都請漢陽公司來做一個維護這樣"},{"start":381.227,"end":398.8,"text":"好 部長T34C其實不是現在才檢討之前就檢討過了它有沒有納入所謂非關安全這個部分因為像過去40幾年前的設計它並沒有這個彈跳椅它也沒有這個黑盒子"},{"start":399.56,"end":422.176,"text":"那到底像這個沒有彈跳椅這部分說實在因為現在事件的事故的發生原因到目前為止調查的這個結果還沒有出來那到底到底像過去發生了12次的這個非官責損的這件事件我們到底有沒有把這個所謂非官的安全因素納入到我們太處的"},{"start":424.337,"end":440.462,"text":"這個原則裡面去雖然他有背著這個降落傘上飛機那會不會說因為高度的原因他也來不及打開這個降落傘造成他真的是逃生不及這部分有沒有納入到我們太處的考量"},{"start":441.701,"end":454.275,"text":"跟委員報告,應該就是說我們有關那個操作的安全性跟那個人員的風險美國,我們在操作安全性上面都會在裝備的妥善的,還有這個都會來評估這個裝備的妥善是"},{"start":462.525,"end":476.192,"text":"是我們一個重要的項目之一也就是說裝備妥善是一個前提嘛因為畢竟這就是我們要維護這個安全那另外人員在出勤之前我們就會要落實任務提示然後來"},{"start":477.653,"end":499.545,"text":"辦理人員裝備環境科目任務計畫等等都要做一個風險評估那請教一下T34C初級教練級目前全世界有幾個國家在使用?目前我們掌握的包含國家總共還有四個國家在使用還有四個國家,台灣那還有呢?"},{"start":500.382,"end":519.868,"text":"還有密魯阿根廷以及台灣還有美國還有這四個國家其實也可以說是很多國家都不再使用T-34C了是這樣的意思嗎?確實只有四個國家在使用逐漸太換是逐漸太換當中我有看到像我們的鄰國泰國也好 越南也好他們都已經引進了美國的T-6"},{"start":521.924,"end":550.343,"text":"對 那我們台灣做不到嗎因為我剛剛有聽到其他的委員在提到說我們到底要是國際國造還是要直接外購或者是要售權生產等等喔那我們有辦法有做多元的方式來做引進不管是國際國造也好或直接外購用雙軌式的方式來辦理有辦法這樣子做嗎我們就是一定要等到2033年才能夠逐步來做太初嗎我們剛剛有說明我們大概明年"},{"start":551.402,"end":559.111,"text":"5月就會來確定這個籌購的策略那我們希望明年提出來以後,117年就可以開始進行籌購"},{"start":560.755,"end":583.449,"text":"那投購的方式就是外購的方式或可能是國際國造因為我有看到就是說像這個漢翔他也有提到說他其實跟這個中科院其實有完成第一階段的設計這個是這部分呢這部分是不是他說可能啟動專案的話可能三年後首飛六年後量產滿足2033年的這個需求這是在我們的計畫當中嗎我想我們空軍應該會"},{"start":585.749,"end":602.484,"text":"依據我們未來訓練的需求,因為這主要是訓練機,我們也會導入先進的訓練模式我們來收整國內的科技研發能量,以及國外現有的商情,我們最後就會做個評估出來"},{"start":604.573,"end":628.649,"text":"聽起來我們在這個部分好像並還沒有一個明確的一個方案出來都還在評估當中可是我還是覺得說像T34C說實在雖然說大家都說妥善率也好或者是說零組件其實這個來源並沒有這個餘力操作好像也沒有什麼問題可是畢竟現在的作戰模式跟過往其實是不一樣"},{"start":628.729,"end":628.769,"text":"我們會積極來評估"},{"start":658.285,"end":660.932,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}