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這是行政機關的義務沒有錯但是我們現在遇到的是一個非常離譜的行政院因為可以所謂的不附屬 事先中不執行這個都是全世界民主國家沒有的例子也是中華民國過往到現在包括兩任民進黨執政時期的總統都不敢做的事情"},{"start":64.747,"end":92.363,"text":"在陳水扁執政時代那時候也曾經歷過潮小野大但是只要立法院三讀通過了即使陳水扁總統再怎麼不喜歡他也是必須吞下去必須執行因為民主國家權力分立原則這個就是行政院必須要尊重民意機關立法院所立出來的法律但是很悲哀的非常悲哀的非常可笑的非常丟臉的我們現在完全在走反世界民主的潮流"},{"start":93.143,"end":105.911,"text":"一個立法院民主制度定出來的法律行政機關 行政院可以愛做就做 不做就不做所以我們三讀通過後的東西沒有任何用處當它不附屬的時候 底下的"},{"start":107.231,"end":131.883,"text":"幹部 公務員 就講一句 我依法行政因為他 因為那個法 他從頭到尾 行政院長都不讓他施行 不讓他生效這是我們民主國家的悲哀說真的 走到今天為止 還配講自己叫做民主國家嗎有沒有 世界上有沒有任何一個民主國家立法院三讀通過後的法律 行政機關 愛做就做 不做就不做你還好意思說自己是民主國家 還好意思說自己叫做民主進步"},{"start":133.65,"end":160.612,"text":"所以才會導致出今天這麼多的問題所以我今天破題我先再講一次這一句話整天說我們不審總預算事實上是一本違法的預算書來不依法編列預算的預算書來叫大家怎麼審然後現在在外面整天造謠說不審總預算這就是我們現在的政府我先跟副委員長報告我自己在公務體系差不多25年"},{"start":163.052,"end":191.454,"text":"我真的相信一句話 就公務員強國家才會強各位在場都是公務員 一定會認同這一句話所以世界上很多國家公務員他們都是採精英主義盡量找一流人才到公務體系來但現在這十年政府的運作下去一個蘿蔔一個坑 有人來就好品質怎麼樣 一點都不在乎然後來了以後 東扣西扣國家說這幾年 年年稅金超收去前一年五千多億"},{"start":192.853,"end":205.076,"text":"前面四年加起來超徵一兆八千億的稅金但是呢公務員他有給你調整過嗎他有給你好好的調整嗎有讓你跟上物價嗎你連物價都跟不上更不要講你的生活有改善"},{"start":206.232,"end":226.441,"text":"這就是我現在看到的一個問題所以我們的公務員國家這些骨幹其他國家當作保的這些重要的骨幹在我們這裡完全被通貨膨脹還有過勞跟集體這些壓力給搞垮了我今天談的不是只是調薪而是我們要怎麼樣繼續維持我們國家的這個公務體系的運作就像以前人家講的"},{"start":227.821,"end":253.991,"text":"這國家需要一流的人才來制定一流的政策當我們沒有辦法吸引到一流人才來制定一流政策的時候國家只會漸漸的走向衰敗任何一個私人企業都希望搶最好對一流的人才到企業裡面讓企業更壯大但是我們現在卻做的是讓每年公務員的報考人數一年比一年少然後他只講一句少子化問題但是這不是少子化的問題這跟少子化沒有關係"},{"start":256.101,"end":268.601,"text":"這個少子化只是佔其中一小部分但真正影響的是你整個給他的體制你今天造成的是人根本不想來考 連考都考不了所以你今天齁 我看到你們給我們的書面報告"},{"start":269.861,"end":299.741,"text":"其實我跟你說我希望待遇法治化並不是說替軍工叫討紅包而是說這個東西關係到國家大事我們希望讓它法治化不要只是一個要點不要只是一個辦法要走向法治化給予這些文官法治跟尊重這是我們這次提出修法的一個最主要核心你們的報告給我們啊你說薪資的調整人總會收集CPI收集經濟成長率民間薪資還有政府的那個財政指標等等的"},{"start":300.442,"end":323.404,"text":"但是呢 我們從數據來看 2021到2024 CPI它就漲了9%但是這四年裡面 公務員條件調8%等於公務員不但沒有改善生活 而且他實質購買力他整個是被通膨吃掉 他根本就沒有過得比較好他反而是比以前更不好那這個狀況呢 公務員實質薪資等於是嚴重的倒退"},{"start":324.545,"end":329.451,"text":"那好 那我請教一下 2021年CPI是漲1.97 2023 2.49那這兩年為什麼沒有調性 當年的決策到底是什麼"},{"start":339.871,"end":357.55,"text":"跟委員報告 因為當年我還沒有回到這個位置上沒有啦 那個 副院長這個我覺得官員就是一棒接一棒啦對對 但是就是就目前來講剛剛委員講的部分其實政府在做的也是跟委員講的"},{"start":358.131,"end":382.077,"text":"沒關係 副院長你不知道 我直接跟你說明好了你們對外的說法 2021是說疫情的關係沒有辦法調2023是說前一年剛剛調過 所以不用調那我就說 你們剛剛說 我剛剛點出來你們給我們的報告的指標 講了CPI成長基金成長率 民間薪資 政府的那個財政指數但是呢"},{"start":383.444,"end":411.19,"text":"看起來也沒有啊因為你們給我們說不能調薪的理由也不是前面那幾個嘛好像變成是行政院院長說了算這個是一個很大問題所以因為你不知道所以我剛剛直接講給你聽所以呢立法院預算中心在110年的報告直接就明確的講出來你們調整的理由根本就是缺乏明確的衡量指標那不能夠 你們都沒有以一個具體計算待遇的調整調減或他的幅度"},{"start":411.65,"end":429.446,"text":"也就是說啦 歸論到一句話就是黑箱啦那我必須講勞工 你們對於勞工就完全不是這樣勞工就非常的透明那這個是我覺得有問題的一個點那所以呢 最近這一套操作下去 這些年我們導致了什麼"},{"start":430.558,"end":450.598,"text":"第一個人招不進來剛剛陳浩之委員也有問到啊高普考這幾年報考人數大量減少短短四年少了三分之一耶地方特考更創十年新低然後有一些專業技術職你根本找不到人一些土木工程等等的這些有證照的人他們在外面賺錢就好他根本不想來報效國家"},{"start":452.577,"end":474.428,"text":"所以你們的制度就出了大問題嘛國家招不到人第一個招不進來第二個留不住人113年全國公務員離職退休超過1.6萬主動離職的就3000多人五年內暴增40%我也跟你報告就像我們是司法官出身司法官的薪水起薪就破10萬我菜鳥20幾歲的時候我們領就破10萬"},{"start":478.713,"end":494.214,"text":"這樣子的薪資之下這幾年瘋狂的走人我一堆同學都走光了連這麼高薪的位置都留不住人那就是制度出問題但是你們都沒有在重視我看到的是這樣因為第一線的公務員除了薪資不好之外"},{"start":495.421,"end":524.083,"text":"很多時候比如極端氣候戶外救災然後民眾不滿他第一線要挨罵然後呢在執行公務的時候又遇到一大堆法律的風險土地罪的風險還有來自於政治的壓力所以專業的人就漸漸喪失了他的熱情那很多人走掉人才走光之後我再問一下這個國家怎麼辦然後他就算滿抱熱情進來願意面對這些壓力但是國家又用實質薪資倒退來對待他們"},{"start":525,"end":554.027,"text":"然後甚至最近又還叫公務員簽一堆切結書莫名其妙政治意識形態的切結書叫人家簽一大堆請問國家有把這些文官的尊嚴當作一回事來看待這是我對你們我覺得很大的一個問題啦那你們是不是所以說你們我看你們報告有提到說你們有提一個軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案對不對所以也就是你們也認為這個東西應該走向一個法律案來走嘛對不對"},{"start":555.027,"end":577.182,"text":"行政院這邊其實也是在往法治化方向來走我想法治化以後整個待遇調整的機制會更明確但是這個法案送到行政院之後拜託不要說只是聽組織滿意才能動啦因為有太多部會跟我說法案進了行政院就石沉大海就再也沒有看到了跟委員報告"},{"start":580.984,"end":582.145,"text":"目前行政院排了嗎目前行政院排了嗎所以還沒有排"},{"start":595.475,"end":617.586,"text":"拜託去了解一下遇到什麼樣具體的困難因為你們現在面對的是全國這幾十萬的公務員你們現在看的是這個福利他們的人生他們的規劃他們的福利不要這個東西好像都不當一回事那我們講勞工勞工你那時候修法我記得前幾年立法院通過的那個最低工資法"},{"start":618.226,"end":633.084,"text":"第一條寫得很清楚為確保勞工合理最低薪資提高勞工還有他生活家庭生活水準促進勞資和諧你換一個角度你把它放到公務員來看是不是也是應該要確保公務員合理的最低工資"},{"start":634.085,"end":654.148,"text":"提高公務員跟他家庭的生活水準促進公務員跟國家政府之間的和諧是不是應該用這個角度去處理那當初你們對勞工這樣做你是希望排除掉政治喊價還有選舉操作用客觀的CPI指數來說話來保障公務員這個我予以肯定"},{"start":654.508,"end":669.987,"text":"但是這個邏輯不也就套用在公務員身上嗎你要知道公務員還有貪污罪條例還有一堆特別法來修理他結果你對公務員的保障遠低於對於勞工的保障你對他的要求卻遠高於對於勞工的要求那這樣當然招不到人嘛"},{"start":670.327,"end":697.118,"text":"我想這是一個很簡單的道理啦而且我在那邊我看了那個翁曉琳委員的提案裡面有提到軍公教的調薪不是只有公部門的事他還有具備火車頭的效應所以很多時候軍公教調薪民間企業的老闆才會甚至心不甘情不願就只好跟著調這樣也是帶動民間企業跟著進行調薪這個過往的歷史都是這樣所以我真的還是拜託你們要注意這個點"},{"start":698.178,"end":715.175,"text":"那也不可以說像現在 全國軍公教員工待遇知己是用要點來處理 而不是用法制那我想 四字五七五還有六五八七都有提到憲法保障人民服工職的權利 也包含了奉集請求權"},{"start":715.896,"end":725.983,"text":"也就是說國家對於公務員的這個縫緊其實公務是有這個憲法義務的你必須要保障好這個是你們的憲政義務你認為我講的對不對這是你們的憲政義務"},{"start":730.195,"end":746.702,"text":"跟委員報告啦這個國家照顧公園本來就是政府的職責然後現在其實政府也一直在做就多管齊下在做當然剛剛所提到那些現象稍之後當然是一個最直接的問題的供給端每年這個大學必須能減少"},{"start":748.363,"end":773.342,"text":"企業的這個人力需求和倡望當然這個對國家來講不見得不好因為這個企業倡望當然是好的但是當然公園靜態這部分就面臨比較大的挑戰那現在我們也透過幾個方式在做處理一個是待遇待遇的調整譬如說剛剛委員提到了現在其實在錄取端就是工程類科是有不足的現象其他行政類科其實目前還可以"},{"start":773.942,"end":780.388,"text":"遭到合格的人才那我們就是從工程類科的部分的待遇先去加強接下來我們就要對那個護理師的部分就降低考試難度啦他不是用增加誘因來讓護理師"},{"start":789.276,"end":816.005,"text":"願意來考而是降低考試的難度讓他們呢能夠來醫院面對我們這些病患的時候再拿我當練習題然後來練習啊那就不是就一樣嗎一樣的邏輯啊政府原來邏輯就是一個蘿蔔一個坑沒有人來考我就降低考試的難度對不對然後人才進來水準夠不夠我一點都不在乎當這些護士進來的時候他沒有達到原本要求的水準他直接拿我來當臨床好了啦"},{"start":816.385,"end":826.207,"text":"他們現在就這樣嘛不會不會我現在看到的狀況就是這樣啊護理師自己都出來抗議了啊好 沒關係喔先是多管齊下啦包括工作的減壓包括那個植物類種的調遭但是我說出來的是現在食物上面的問題招不到人 留不住人這個是事實嘛那你講得太漂亮的話再好就沒有用嗎一定要多管齊下去做"},{"start":842.473,"end":860.825,"text":"幾十萬人的重大權益然後我真的不覺得政府有特別注意整天告訴我們我們的經濟多棒每年超收幾千億稅金就公務員你一直在流失我看到的是這個樣子然後我再問一個問題就是我剛剛講到你這個調薪的資料可不可以給我像我剛剛講到的剛剛2021還有2023這兩年你們調薪的資料到底內部文件是什麼可不可以到時候給我一份"},{"start":868.37,"end":868.49,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":869.431,"end":898.268,"text":"我希望資料能夠公開啦因為勞工的調薪的會議資料可以公開為什麼公務員調薪的會議資料沒有辦法公開為什麼要走黑箱這是我想要請教的你們草案雖然有開始有這個意願納入基層公務員讓他們能夠進去開會之前是都沒有之前你們只有用高官來決定基層公務員的薪資現在你們的草案有好那這部分我不再跟你討論但是我要請問一下過往的資料可不可以公開讓我們知道評斷的標準是什麼"},{"start":899.349,"end":927.542,"text":"以及未來草案你們也都沒有公開這一塊那可不可以把這個部分再修正把它公開討論的資料可不可以像勞工一樣把它公開跟委員報告過往是這個會議技術沒有公開但是在宣布條帶的時候會把這個相關的理由都對外說明那未來的部分未來的部分我們接下來要討論的案子就是"},{"start":928.382,"end":950.141,"text":"我們會在這個除了應該秘密的部分不公開之外其他我會跟你講不要跟我講因秘密的部分新知的部分你要跟我講因秘密各自都不要來騙我好不好我公務員幹了二十幾年我也是學法律出身翁曉琳委員的草案版本有特別提到必須公開所以我這邊跟你們說明一下我希望第一個你們要定期檢討第二個"},{"start":953.143,"end":976.857,"text":"要讓基層代表參與 第三個 一定資料要公開第四個 行政院他否決 任何否決 譬如說你不同意加薪等等你們必須要說明理由 好不好這四個點 麻煩你們之後要在家裡思考啦那你之後想要立法院來 我們也會就這幾個點去打去主要去做那個建議 好不好"},{"start":978.037,"end":994.786,"text":"謝謝委員 委員的意見我們會給請教參考好 因為我跟你講我不希望進入法治化之後還是繼續的黑箱啦因為我跟你講我還是要強調最後不好 最後一分鐘公務員強 國家才會強現在的政府是讓一個蘿蔔一個坑就好"},{"start":995.822,"end":1015.402,"text":"程度不行我就降低考試難度有人來就好現在這是政府的邏輯他只要達到他的政治攻擊目的達到他的政治利益就好他不在乎國家能不能強盛所以現在我們遇到的招不進來 留不住人 坐不下去我們要做這幾件事情我們必須要做到的幾個點就是"},{"start":1017.318,"end":1046.878,"text":"我之前也跟你們說過了我也跟第一個考選第二個待遇第三個職安第四個考機就像我跟考選部那時候有說要讓公職招募從等人來考變成主動徵才你要讓他在學校的時候運用各種方式譬如說去現場看去看我們的東西做得多好來引誘這些學生願意畢業的時候從事公職我跟你講如果你沒有這樣做真的留不住人我跟你講人進的來必須靠的是考選的改革"},{"start":1047.418,"end":1065.599,"text":"留得住必須靠的是待遇還有職安的改革做得下去靠的是要有一個公平的考機制度所以我才會說剛剛我念的這四個東西麻煩你們一定要做到不然真的公務員體系越來越弱外面企業越來越強公務員越來越弱"},{"start":1068.274,"end":1089.742,"text":"還有麻煩您一件事情不要所有我們文官的權益什麼都讓政務官壓得死死的很多時候文官才是一個國家真正的主幹再強調一次公務員強國家才會強麻煩麻煩您好不好麻煩您我今天跟你說的麻煩您可以修正的部分繼續修正好不好"},{"start":1090.848,"end":1112.522,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝簡單回覆委員 委員剛才提那個其實政府都在做包括那個招募的部分我們行政院這邊其實也有推薦我們優秀的公務員一起跟考卷部那邊進入校園去做招募的這個工作那另外我們其實在委員講的那四項之外我們現在也在做工作的降載有些數位的"},{"start":1113.843,"end":1134.257,"text":"包括AI的工具現在AI基本法大院已經通過了我們會在這個框架底下有一些工作降載的方式我們也會再繼續努力不過我想講啦如果有改善這十年不會越來越慘一年比一年慘所以講的天花亂墜都沒有意義我們希望越來越好"},{"start":1134.537,"end":1157.349,"text":"你要搞少子化辦公室要預防少子化結果對 預防到最後我們變全世界出生率最低然後跟我講你們做了多漂亮那個都騙人那個下午麻煩你們派人來跟我回報一個因為我們之前預算審查所以我請你們去跟廉政署那個風險辨識方案請你們主責人來我辦公室說明一下這部分我們有在處理我們跟廉政署在處理我就是要知道進度好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:03.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:27:04.306000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩副人事長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:04.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:27:04.566000+08:00","text":"請副人事長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:04.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:27:09.091000+08:00","text":"委員早。你好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:09.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:27:25.105000+08:00","text":"我先破題講一下，因為我剛剛有聽到陳昭姿委員的質詢，我當然也很高興能夠聽到銓敘部講「依法行政」四個字，但是我剛剛為什麼說是破題？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:25.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:27:55.027000+08:00","text":"我必須在這邊跟全國人民報告一件事情，依法行政是行政機關的義務沒有錯，但是我們現在遇到的是一個非常離譜的行政院，可以所謂的不副署、釋憲中不執行，這個都是全世界民主國家沒有的例子，也是中華民國過往到現在，包括兩任民進黨執政時期的總統都不敢做的事情。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:27:55.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:28:47.415000+08:00","text":"在陳水扁執政的時代，那時候也曾經經歷過朝小野大，但是只要立法院三讀通過了，即使陳水扁總統再怎麼不喜歡，他也是必須吞下去、必須執行，因為民主國家權力分立原則，行政院必須要尊重民意機關立法院所立出來的法律，但是很悲哀的、非常悲哀的、非常可笑的、非常丟臉的，我們現在完全在走反世界民主的潮流，一個由立法院民主制度訂出來的法律，行政機關行政院可以愛做就做，不做就不做，所以我們三讀通過後的東西沒有任何用處，當他不副署的時候，底下的幹部、公務員就講一句我依法行政，因為那個法從頭到尾，行政院長都不讓它施行、不讓它生效，這是我們民主國家的悲哀！","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:28:48.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:28:52.178000+08:00","text":"說真的，走到今天為止，還配講自己叫做民主國家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:28:52.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:29:00.682000+08:00","text":"世界上有沒有任何一個民主國家，立法院三讀通過後的法律，行政機關愛做就做，不做就不做，你還好意思說自己是民主國家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:29:01.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:29:02.863000+08:00","text":"還好意思說自己叫做民主進步？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:29:04.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:29:06.352000+08:00","text":"所以才會導致出今天這麼多的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:29:06.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:29:20.783000+08:00","text":"所以我今天先破題，我再講一次這句話，整天說我們不審總預算，事實上是一本違法的預算書送來，不依法編列預算的預算書，叫大家怎麼審？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:29:20.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:29:25.447000+08:00","text":"然後現在在外面整天造謠說不審總預算，這就是我們現在的政府。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:29:26.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:09.804000+08:00","text":"我先跟副人事長報告，我自己在公務體系25年，我真的相信一句話，就是公務員強，國家才會強，各位在場都是公務員，一定會認同這一句話，所以世界上很多國家的公務員都是採菁英主義，儘量找一流人才到公務體系來，但現在這十年政府運作下，一個蘿蔔一個坑，有人來就好，品質怎麼樣，一點都不在乎，然後來了以後東扣西扣，國家這幾年是年年稅金超收，前一年是五千多億，前面四年加起來超徵1兆8,000億的稅金，但是公務員的部分有調整過嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:09.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:11.247000+08:00","text":"有好好調整嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:11.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:12.690000+08:00","text":"有跟上物價嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:12.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:18.653000+08:00","text":"連物價都跟不上，更不要講生活會有改善，這就是我現在看到的一個問題。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:19.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:29.837000+08:00","text":"我們的公務員是國家的骨幹，其他國家當作寶的重要骨幹，在我們這裡完全被通貨膨脹、過勞及集體壓力給搞垮了。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:30.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:30:47.764000+08:00","text":"我今天談的不只是調薪，而是我們要怎麼樣繼續維持國家公務體系的運作，就像以前人家講的，國家需要一流的人才來制訂一流的政策，當我們沒有辦法吸引一流人才來制訂一流政策的時候，國家只會漸漸地走向衰敗。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:30:47.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:31:15.795000+08:00","text":"任何一個私人企業都希望搶最好、最一流的人才到企業，讓企業更壯大，但我們現在做的卻是讓每年公務員的報考人數一年比一年少，然後他只講一句少子化問題，但這不是少子化的問題，這跟少子化沒有關係，少子化只是占其中一小部分，但真正影響的是你們整個給他的體制，今天造成的是人根本不想來考，連考都考不了。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:31:17.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:31:40.034000+08:00","text":"今天我看到你們給我們的書面報告，其實我跟你說，我希望待遇法制化，並不是替軍公教討紅包，而是這個東西關係到國家大事，我們希望讓它法制化，不要只是一個要點、不要只是一個辦法，要走向法制化，給予這些文官法制跟尊重，這是我們這次提出修法一個最主要的核心。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:31:40.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:14.384000+08:00","text":"你們的報告給我們，你們說薪資的調整，人總會蒐集CPI、經濟成長率、民間薪資及政府財政指標等等，但是我們從數據來看，2021年到2024年，CPI就漲了9%，但是這四年裡，公務員調薪調8%，等於公務員不但沒有改善生活，而且實質購買力整個是被通膨吃掉，他根本就沒有過得比較好，反而是比以前更不好，這個狀況表示公務員實質薪資等於是嚴重的倒退。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:16.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:17.868000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，2021年CPI是漲1.97%、2023年是2.49%，這兩年為什麼沒有調薪？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:17.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:20.451000+08:00","text":"當年的決策到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:30.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:36.057000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為當年我還沒有回到這個位置上，所以我是沒有具體去研究……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:37.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:41.122000+08:00","text":"副人事長，我覺得官員就是一棒接一棒啦！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:41.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:48.530000+08:00","text":"對，但是就目前來講，針對剛剛委員講的部分，其實政府在做的也是跟委員講的……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:49.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:52.712000+08:00","text":"沒關係，副人事長，你不知道，我直接跟你說明好了……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:52.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:32:53.712000+08:00","text":"就是公務員強，國家才會強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:32:53.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:33:03.114000+08:00","text":"你們對外的說法是，2021年因為疫情關係而沒有辦法調；2023年是因為前一年剛剛調過，所以不用調。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:33:04.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:33:15.324000+08:00","text":"我剛剛點出來，你們給我們的報告所提到的指標有CPI成長、經濟成長率、民間薪資及政府財政指數，但是看起來也沒有啊！","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:33:15.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:33:26.887000+08:00","text":"因為你們給我們不能調薪的理由也不是前面那幾個，好像變成是行政院院長說了算，這是一個很大的問題，因為你不知道，所以我剛剛直接講給你聽。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:33:27.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:33:46.393000+08:00","text":"立法院預算中心在110年的報告就直接明確地講出來，你們調整的理由根本就是缺乏明確的衡量指標，都沒有以一個具體計算待遇的調增、調減或其幅度，也就是說，歸論到一句話，就是黑箱啦！","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:33:47.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:33:55.421000+08:00","text":"我必須講，你們對於勞工就完全不是這樣，對勞工就非常的透明，這是我覺得有問題的一個點。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:33:56.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:34:00.446000+08:00","text":"最近這一套操作下去，這些年導致了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:34:01.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:34:21.578000+08:00","text":"第一個，人招不進來，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有問到，高普考這幾年報考人數大量減少，短短四年少了三分之一，地方特考更創十年新低，有一些專業技術職根本找不到人，土木工程等等這些有證照的人在外面賺錢就好了，他們根本不想來報效國家。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:34:24.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:34:26.378000+08:00","text":"你們的制度就出了大問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:34:26.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:34:38.325000+08:00","text":"國家招不到人：第一個，招不進來；第二個，留不住人，113年全國公務員離職、退休超過1.6萬人，主動離職的就有三千多人，五年內暴增40%。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:34:38.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:34:45.428000+08:00","text":"我也跟你報告，我們是司法官出身，司法官的薪水起薪就破10萬，我是菜鳥二十幾歲的時候，領的就破10萬。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:34:49.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:02.590000+08:00","text":"在這樣子的薪資之下，這幾年瘋狂地走人，我一堆同學都走光了，連這麼高薪的位置都留不住人，那就是制度出問題，但是你們都沒有在重視，我看到的是這樣。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:02.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:23.554000+08:00","text":"第一線的公務員除了薪資不好之外，很多時候因為過極端氣候而要戶外救災，民眾若不滿，他在第一線就要挨罵，或者在執行公務的時候又遇到一大堆法律的風險、圖利罪的風險，以及來自於政治的壓力，所以專業的人就漸漸喪失熱情，造成很多人走掉。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:23.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:27.818000+08:00","text":"在人才走光之後，我再問一下，這個國家怎麼辦？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:28.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:40.221000+08:00","text":"他們滿懷熱情進來，願意面對這些壓力，但是國家又用實質薪資倒退來對待他們，甚至最近還叫公務員簽一堆切結書，莫名其妙！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:40.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:47.363000+08:00","text":"政治意識形態的切結書，叫人家簽一大堆，請問國家有把這些文官的尊嚴當作一回事來看待嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:49.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:35:50.864000+08:00","text":"我覺得這是很大的一個問題。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:35:54.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:00.626000+08:00","text":"我看你們的報告有提到你們有提一個軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，對不對？對。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:00.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:05.027000+08:00","text":"所以你們也認為這個東西應該向一個法律案來走，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:06.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:16.934000+08:00","text":"行政院其實也是在往法制化的方向來走，我想法制化以後，整個待遇調整機制會更明確。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:16.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:28.022000+08:00","text":"但是這個法案送到行政院之後，拜託不要只是聽主子滿意才能動，因為有太多部會跟我說，法案進了行政院就石沉大海，再也沒有看到了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:28.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:28.162000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，立法院……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:31.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.424000+08:00","text":"目前行政院排了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.424000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:33.424000+08:00","text":"朝野委員都一直在關心這個案子的進度……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.925000+08:00","text":"目前行政院排了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:33.925000+08:00","text":"我們也有跟院裡面報告了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:33.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:34.925000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:34.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:35.925000+08:00","text":"目前行政院排了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:35.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:36.925000+08:00","text":"我想行政院應該很快會處理這個案子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:32.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:36:33.125000+08:00","text":"所以還沒有排嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:36:46.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:37:01.682000+08:00","text":"拜託去了解一下遇到什麼樣具體的困難，因為你們現在面對的是全國這幾十萬的公務員，你們現在看的是他們的人生、他們的規劃、他們的福利，不要這個東西好像都不當一回事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:37:02.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:37:17.796000+08:00","text":"我們講到勞工，勞工那時候修法，我記得前幾年立法院通過的最低工資法，第一條寫得很清楚：為確保勞工合理之最低工資，提高勞工及其家庭之生活水準，促進勞資和諧。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:37:18.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:37:32.033000+08:00","text":"若換一個角度，你把這放到公務員來看，是不是也應該要確保公務員合理之最低工資，提高公務員及其家庭的生活水準，促進公務員與政府之間的和諧？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:37:32.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:37:33.655000+08:00","text":"是不是也應該用這個角度去處理？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:37:35.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:37:49.112000+08:00","text":"當初你們對勞工這樣做，你們是希望排除掉政治喊價及選舉操作，用客觀的CPI指數來說話、來保障勞工，這個我予以肯定，但是這個邏輯不也就套用在公務員身上嗎？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:37:49.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:38:00.967000+08:00","text":"你要知道，公務員還有貪污治罪條例及一堆特別法來修理他們，結果你們對公務員的保障遠低於對於勞工的保障，對他們的要求卻遠高於對於勞工的要求，這樣當然招不到人嘛！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:38:01.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:38:03.528000+08:00","text":"我想這是一個很簡單的道理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:38:04.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:38:36.305000+08:00","text":"而且我看翁曉玲委員的提案裡面有提到，軍公教的調薪不是只有公部門的事，還具備火車頭的效益，所以很多時候軍公教調薪，民間企業的老闆才會或甚至心不甘情不願的只好跟著調，這樣也是帶動民間企業跟著進行調薪，過往的歷史都是這樣，所以我真的還是拜託你們要注意這個點，也不可以像現在全國軍公教員工待遇支給是用要點來處理，而不是用法制。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:38:37.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:38:56.563000+08:00","text":"我想釋字第575號及第658號都有提到，憲法保障人民服公職的權利，也包含了俸給請求權，也就是國家對於公務員的俸給其實是有憲法義務，必須要保障好，這個是你們的憲政義務，你認為我講的對不對？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:39:01.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:39:09.359000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，國家照顧公務員本來就是政府的職責，現在政府也一直多管齊下在做。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:39:10.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:39:49.386000+08:00","text":"剛剛所提到的那些現象，少子化當然是一個最直接的問題，也就是供給端，每年大學畢業生減少，企業對人力的需求又暢旺，這對國家來講不見得不好，因為企業暢旺當然是好的，但是公務員進才這部分就面臨比較大的挑戰，現在我們也透過幾個方式在做處理，一個是待遇的調整，譬如剛剛委員有提到的，現在在錄取端，工程類科是有不足額的現象，但其他行政類科目前還可以招到合格的人才，我們就是從工程類科的待遇先加強……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:39:49.386000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:39:50.386000+08:00","text":"我說真的，我只聽到行政院講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:39:49.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:39:49.606000+08:00","text":"接下來我們就要對通案的……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:39:49.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:02.377000+08:00","text":"護理師的部分就降低考試難度，它不是用增加誘因讓護理師願意來考，而是降低考試的難度……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:02.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:03.377000+08:00","text":"應該是一個誤會，考選部好像有做說明了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:03.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:11.780000+08:00","text":"讓他們來醫院面對這些病患時，再拿病患當練習題來練習，那不就是一樣的邏輯嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:12.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:16.762000+08:00","text":"政府原來的邏輯就是一個蘿蔔一個坑，沒有人來考就降低考試的難度……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:16.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:19.963000+08:00","text":"沒有，國家考試應該都有一定的門檻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:19.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:28.205000+08:00","text":"一點都不在乎進來的人才水準夠不夠，當這些進來的護士沒有達到原本要求的水準，直接拿病患當臨床好了，他們現在就是這樣嘛！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:28.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:29.205000+08:00","text":"不會，我過去有段時間也在考試院……","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:29.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:31.206000+08:00","text":"現在看到的狀況就是這樣，連護理師自己都出來抗議了，沒關係……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:31.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:33.206000+08:00","text":"我們會多管齊下，包括工作的減壓及調高職務列等。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:34.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:36.727000+08:00","text":"我能理解你有政治上的壓力，但是我說的是現在實務上的問題，招不到人、留不住人都是事實，你講的再漂亮也沒有用啊！","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:36.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:40:53.473000+08:00","text":"我們一定要多管齊下去做，包括這個待遇法我們也一直在努力當中，行政院現在也……","quality":0.265},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:40:53.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:05.100000+08:00","text":"這是攸關幾十萬人的重大權益，但我真的不覺得政府有特別注意，整天告訴我們經濟表現多棒，每年超收幾千億稅金，結果公務員一直在流失，我看到的是這個狀況。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:06.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:08.623000+08:00","text":"再請問一個問題，剛剛講的調薪資料可不可以給我？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:08.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:10.984000+08:00","text":"像2021及2023這兩年調薪的資料，到底內部文件是什麼？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:10.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:11.805000+08:00","text":"到時候可不可以給我1份？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:20.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:28.376000+08:00","text":"我希望資料能夠公開，因為勞工調薪的會議資料可以公開，為什麼公務員調薪的會議資料沒有辦法公開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:28.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:29.036000+08:00","text":"為什麼要走黑箱？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:29.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:30.537000+08:00","text":"這是我想請教的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:31.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:48.608000+08:00","text":"你們的草案雖然開始有意願讓基層公務員能夠進去開會，之前都沒有，之前只有高官能決定基層公務員的薪資，現在你們的草案有，好，這部分我不再跟你討論，我請問過往的資料可不可以公開？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:48.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:41:57.492000+08:00","text":"讓我們知道評斷的標準是什麼，以及未來草案你們也都沒有公開這一塊，可不可以把這個部分再修正並公開？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:41:57.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:00.434000+08:00","text":"可不可以像勞工一樣將討論的資料公開？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:00.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:24.406000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，過往的會議紀錄沒有公開，但是在宣布調待時會把相關的理由對外說明，未來我們要討論的案子除了應該秘密的部分不公開之外，其他應該是朝公開的方式處理。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:25.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:31.652000+08:00","text":"不要跟我講應秘密部分，你跟我講薪資的部分應秘密或個資的問題，都不要騙我，好不好！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:31.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:37.698000+08:00","text":"我公務員幹了二十幾年，也是學法律出身，翁曉玲委員的草案版本有特別提到必須公開。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:37.698000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:40.080000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，院版送出來以後會跟委員一起討論。","quality":0.15},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲：所以我要跟你們說明，希望能做到以下幾點","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:40.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:40.920000+08:00","text":"第一，你們要定期檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲：所以我要跟你們說明，希望能做到以下幾點","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:40.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:45.464000+08:00","text":"第二，要讓基層代表參與。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲：所以我要跟你們說明，希望能做到以下幾點","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:45.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:47.825000+08:00","text":"第三，資料一定要公開。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲：所以我要跟你們說明，希望能做到以下幾點","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:47.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:42:56.270000+08:00","text":"第四，譬如行政院不同意加薪等等的任何否決，你們必須要說明理由，好不好？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲：所以我要跟你們說明，希望能做到以下幾點","start":"2026-06-10T09:42:57.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:43:07.837000+08:00","text":"麻煩你們再針對這四點加以思考，之後草案送到立法院，我們也會就這幾點提出建議，好不好？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:43:09.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:43:11.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我們會將委員的意見提供給行政院參考。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:43:11.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:43:15.781000+08:00","text":"好，因為我不希望進入法制化後還是繼續的黑箱。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:43:16.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:43:38.374000+08:00","text":"最後一分鐘，我還是要強調「公務員強，國家才會強」，現在的政府只求一個蘿蔔糕一個坑就好，程度不行就降低考試難度，有人來就好，這是政府現在的邏輯，他只要達到政治攻擊目的及政治利益就好，而不在乎國家能不能強盛。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:43:39.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:43:54.882000+08:00","text":"現在我們遇到招不進來、留不住人、做不下去，所以我們必須要做到之前也跟你們說過的這幾點：第一個考選；第二個待遇；第三個職安；第四個考績。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:43:55.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:44:13.375000+08:00","text":"就像我當時跟考選部所說，要讓公職招募從等人來考變成主動徵才，要讓他在學校的時候運用各種方式，譬如去現場看我們做得多好，吸引這些學生願意在畢業後從事公職，我跟你講，如果沒有這樣做真的留不住人。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:44:14.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:44:25.827000+08:00","text":"人進得來，必須靠考選的改革；留得住，必須靠待遇還有職安的改革；做得下去，靠的是公平的考績制度。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:44:26.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:44:36.579000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛我提的這四件事情麻煩你們一定要做到，不然公務員體系真的越來越弱，外面的企業越來越強，但是公務員卻越來越弱。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:44:39.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:00.722000+08:00","text":"還要麻煩您一件事情，不要讓文官所有的權益都被政務官壓得死死的，很多時候文官才是一個國家真正的主幹，再一次強調，「公務員強，國家才會強」，我今天所提的內容，麻煩您可以修正的部分繼續修正，好不好！謝謝。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:02.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:03.109000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:04.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:17.018000+08:00","text":"簡單回復委員，您剛才提到包括招募的部分其實政府都有在做，行政院也有推薦優秀的公務員跟考選部一起進入校園做招募的工作。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:17.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:33.489000+08:00","text":"另外除了委員所講的四項之外，我們現在也在做工作的降載，包括運用一些AI的數位工具，現在大院已經通過AI基本法了，我們會在這個框架底下再繼續努力研究工作降載的方法。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:33.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:43.496000+08:00","text":"我認為如果有改善，這十年不會越來越慘，而且一年比一年慘，所以講得天花亂墜都沒有意義……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:43.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:45.237000+08:00","text":"我們希望越來越好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:45.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:45:53.721000+08:00","text":"你搞少子化辦公室要預防少子化，結果預防到最後我們的出生率變成全世界最低，然後跟我講你們做得多漂亮，那些都在騙人。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:45:54.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:46:04.547000+08:00","text":"下午麻煩你們派人跟我回報一個案子，因為我之前審查預算時請你們跟廉政署辦理風險辨識方案，請你們的主責人到我辦公室說明一下……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:46:04.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:46:07.149000+08:00","text":"這部分我們有在處理，我們跟廉政署在處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2026-06-10T09:46:07.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T09:46:08.349000+08:00","text":"我知道，我就是要知道進度，謝謝。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T09:46:08.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:46:10.563286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T09:46:10.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T09:46:14.577571+08:00","text":"接下來我們請林沛祥委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}