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黄楼山01会议室 出席委员王定宇等11人 列席委员林德福等8人列席人员 国防部部长顾立雄及所属人员 主席马遭及委员文君报告事项 一宣读上次会议 意思录决定确定二 邀请国防部部长顾立雄报告业务概况 并被质询国防部部长顾立雄报告 委员王定宇等16人质询"},{"start":1510.229,"end":1531.955,"text":"軍有國防部部長郭力雄政治作戰局局長史順文主計局局長謝啟賢軍醫局局長蔡建松陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長李慶然及國家中山科學研究院院長李士強等即席答覆決定已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":1532.695,"end":1542.881,"text":"二委員所提口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定 宣讀完畢好 那接續請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國家安全局報告近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之延期並被質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1560.011,"end":1573.825,"text":"好現在我們介紹在場委員及與會的官員我們在場陳永康委員我們國家安全局我們蔡明業局長"},{"start":1582.093,"end":1593.891,"text":"好 本日會議邀請國家安全局報告近期東亞情勢變化對我國的這個影響之延期並被質詢那現在請我們蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":1610.454,"end":1633.288,"text":"謝謝主席 主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家好非常感謝外委會今天安排本席來列席進行專案的報告我們以下僅就東亞最新的情勢以及對我國的影響評估跟各位委員先進報告如下第一部分是有關於東亞的政經情勢一 美中經貿以及戰略的角力括弧一 經貿角力爭取籌碼"},{"start":1634.659,"end":1656.596,"text":"在今年的十月上旬 我們可以看到美中相互的擴大經貿施壓的動作提高各自在經貿談判過程當中的籌碼在雙方的馬來西亞召開第五輪的經貿磋商會議當中雙方也針對延長關稅的期限 農產品的採購分泰尼的控管以及出口管制等等的議題有達成初步的共識"},{"start":1657.336,"end":1666.909,"text":"那可能後續就是由川普跟習近平兩位美中的領導人在APEC的場邊會晤來進行最後的經貿互動框架的一個確定"},{"start":1668.427,"end":1687.056,"text":"第二戰略矛盾持續的升溫那中共俄國北韓藉由九三閱兵來呃展現共抗美盟的一個態勢那共軍也持續的頻密的在台海東海跟南海來推進海空的演訓跟揮帶的洗腦那美國跟區域的友盟也密集的展開各種的雙邊跟多邊"},{"start":1689.117,"end":1707.022,"text":"實戰化的一個聯演而且進一步的邀請美國 法國 加拿大等等域外的友盟來加入相關的聯演那參演的國家演習的頻率以及演習的規模都創下了歷年之最那我們看到在演習的科目的部分主要聚焦在制空制海遠距反艦機動增援"},{"start":1708.562,"end":1736.296,"text":"網路作戰還有太空作戰等等多領域的作戰能力值得一提的是英國在今年也派遣航空母艦巡弋印太的水域期間也跟12個國家來舉行相關的海空的聯演我們從相關的聯演可以看到美盟持續地來加強在印太的一個軍事的部署共同來反制中俄的軍事協作以及來嚇阻共軍持續地擴張跟挑釁這大概是第一個部分"},{"start":1736.736,"end":1756.598,"text":"那第二部分是針對日本高市內閣外交跟安保的動向來跟各位委員先進做一個報告跟說明瓜胡一強化防衛的能力那日本的高市首相他長期以來都非常的關切中共俄國北韓的一個威脅並且以強化美日同盟俄制力作為他安保政策的施政的主軸"},{"start":1757.539,"end":1776.288,"text":"另外高市也承諾明年會加速的來完成日本防衛費用佔比達到GDP2%的一個目標同時也會再進一步的來推進跟美盟相關的聯合演訓以便來實現自由開放印太的一個施政的理念"},{"start":1777.421,"end":1799.836,"text":"國防部2展現親美友台高市首相在就任之後他把接待美國總統川普訪問日本以及建構兩人的信賴關係視為最優先的一個要務也正如我們在專案報告當中所提到的在昨天雙方的會議過程當中也重申要鞏固美日同盟讓美日同盟進入新的黃金年代"},{"start":1800.596,"end":1817.483,"text":"另外高士也主張台灣是美國非常重要的友人跟夥伴台灣有事就是日本有事所以他近期也公開的呼籲包括美國、歐洲、日本、台灣應該要建立起準安全同盟的一個合作共同來維護區域的和平跟穩定"},{"start":1818.923,"end":1839.263,"text":"第三部分是有關於中共的海上揮帶的侵擾瓜胡一台海擴權巡弋那中共持續的在台海地區進行所謂的執法巡查那除了每一個月都會派遣四次的海警編隊進入到我們的金門限制水域活動以外那也開始外擴他們海警的活動到台灣海峽中線以東"},{"start":1840.644,"end":1867.838,"text":"東沙限制水域來進行巡邏同時也對外來謬稱相關的活動是在展現中共對台海的管轄權還有控制權括弧二 南海強勢維權中共在南海地帶也是頻密地來運用海軍 海警跟海上民兵三合一 三線維權的一個模式蠶食南海各國的一個海域在過去這段時間中共的軍艦還有海警船在民主礁"},{"start":1868.638,"end":1881.111,"text":"中葉島 鐵線礁等等的海域都跟菲律賓的海警還有公務船舶發生了海上的一個衝突的事件那另外中共的船艦也多次的入侵到其他東協國家相關的專屬經濟海域引發東協各國的不滿跟抗議"},{"start":1885.035,"end":1900.749,"text":"第二大部分跟各位報告的是相關發展東亞政經情勢對我國的影響還有評估一美中競逐牽動到整體安全的態勢那在經貿科技的部分中共持續透過擴大管制稀土的出口"},{"start":1901.81,"end":1917.683,"text":"來對美國進行經貿的施壓另外美國也加速地來建構非紅供應鏈積極地跟友盟來發展相關的一個科技合作這樣的一個發展的趨勢提供了台美先進產業合作的契機有助於來提升我國的經濟韌性還有競爭力"},{"start":1919.525,"end":1948.491,"text":"另外在安全的方面那中共對台海也持續的挑釁那美盟的軍艦在今年已經執行穿越台海任務總共有五個國家 九次之多這包括了美國 日本 英國 加拿大跟澳洲那特別值得注意的是在今年的九月份澳洲跟加拿大以及美國跟英國的軍艦更是第一次分別在台海來進行聯合的一個巡航的活動那顯示美盟以具體的行動來維護區域安全遏制中共的軍事擴張"},{"start":1950.034,"end":1971.662,"text":"二、台日友好互動具有正面的利基日本新上任的高市首相非常重視台海的核穩在10月初也宣示絕對不可以以武力或脅迫的方式來片面改變現狀另外在前天高市參加東協東亞的峰會也再次重申對於台海和平穩定的一個關注"},{"start":1972.402,"end":1990.376,"text":"另外我們看到在日本新內閣的成員還有自民黨新任的幹部以及新執政聯盟的合作政黨日本維新會也都主張台日友好所以我們看到未來台日的實質合作應該渴望可以來穩定的發展增進雙方的一個交流還有互動"},{"start":1991.317,"end":2017.394,"text":"好 三 有門警戒中共複合式的威脅那台灣身處在西太平洋第一島鏈樞紐的位置那也位居國際半導體產業關鍵的一個地位那台海的穩定符合東亞國家整體的戰略利益那中共持續地在台海南海這些水域來擴權威脅那已經升高了各方的一個警戒那美國跟有門國家重申台海核穩的重要性除了加強跟我國一起來維護"},{"start":2019.115,"end":2034.109,"text":"國際半導體供應鏈的安全以外那也針對中共的對外政治的滲透軍事的擴張認知作戰網路侵害擴大跟我國來進行必要的戰略對話跟情報交流凝聚民族友盟自重的能量"},{"start":2034.85,"end":2059.666,"text":"好 最後一部分是有關於捷語那縱觀當前的東亞情勢複雜多變那我們面對中共強勢擴張的作為可以看到國際社會高度的關切印太的秩序跟台海的穩定那本局會持續的來推動國際情報的交流跟合作精進我們戰略預警的情資研收以便來相助政府的決策跟各項的應變準備共同來維護我們的國家安全跟社會的安定"},{"start":2060.046,"end":2085.901,"text":"那以上報告進行各位委員先進能夠不吝的指導那並且持續對本局的工作給予大力的支持謝謝好謝謝蔡局長報告那現在我們開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理"},{"start":2087.157,"end":2112.848,"text":"現在我們先請陳永康委員上台質詢主席好 有請國安局蔡局長好 請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員長 局長長"},{"start":2114.603,"end":2124.501,"text":"听取了刚才的报告有部分东西愿意跟您在这边再做一个更深层的讨论好有关南海强势的维权那中共在"},{"start":2125.67,"end":2152.065,"text":"南海因為在報告裡面海警團軍艦在民主礁稱黃岩島我這邊做個補充報告外交部在2015年就提出抗議就是黃岩島那麼內政部國土司發布的圖的位置也是黃岩島民主礁是馬總統任內他把他scopper show看成民主礁我們太平島在2016年南海仲裁庭被"},{"start":2153.47,"end":2155.558,"text":"化為焦 我們外交部"},{"start":2156.67,"end":2185.602,"text":"包括小英總統都提出抗議你不可以自動降為焦那同樣黃岩島我們不要去稱它民主焦外交部是稱黃岩島內政部圖也是稱黃岩島那稱成焦就把你的很多的專利權就等於放棄了這個就是國有的一些既有權益放棄了那剛才聽取了您的幾個報告我這邊要請教就是我們從每一個國家它面對的挑戰"},{"start":2187.286,"end":2210.481,"text":"他的国家原则立场目标方法手段如何达成那韩国当然他现在也强调他不介入他国的纷争可是也关切这个台海情势关切不介入那么也愿意提高预算到3%请教这个局长你在看韩国对台海事件就两岸情势的看法韩国人的立场啊"},{"start":2211.32,"end":2221.138,"text":"是如何表达另外一个就是说作为一个友好的国家之间我们有没有其他的管道可以分享一些战略情织"},{"start":2223.234,"end":2241.585,"text":"這個韓國部分因為韓國它本身在國家安全上有面臨來自於北方的威脅所以它傳統上的安全關切都聚焦在朝鮮半島對於區域的安全議題它比較沒有那麼積極的去表達立場不過在最近這幾年可以看到韓國對於台海安全的問題也開始在"},{"start":2242.285,"end":2263.525,"text":"各種的雙邊會談當中去觸及到這樣的議題特別是美韓的對話當中所以這個是一個新的發展趨勢也非常感謝韓方可以這樣來公開表述對於台海和平穩定的一個重視跟支持另外有涉及到一個議題是韓國在看待區域安全問題他們有一個關切點是在於駐韓美軍的活動"},{"start":2264.145,"end":2293.685,"text":"到底能不能在有區域緊急事態的時候抽離朝鮮半島去支應其他的狀況那預期在這一次的美韓峰會應該會碰觸到這個議題那以韓方日前對外的說明他們可能會跟美方針對駐韓美軍在緊急事態之下的彈性運用會達成某種程度的一個共識所以這也算是一個比照起韓國過去的做法來講一個比較新的突破就是容許駐韓美軍能夠更靈活的一個調度"},{"start":2294.606,"end":2308.899,"text":"但是韩国的本身在韩美联军指挥下他是当副手美军是联军指挥官也就是说韩方的部队并不能调离韩国只是您刚刚讲就是说可能让美军有更大的弹性对"},{"start":2309.58,"end":2328.488,"text":"好 了解好 我们下一张这就是日本的刚才您讲得更明确了那么日本的当然它整体的国家的量能非常大所以它的GDP提升到2%那么再加上也强化东京台北的合作至关重要尤其是今天各个媒体都报道了"},{"start":2330.389,"end":2349.009,"text":"高士跟川普他們會面確認台海和平的重要性我想在這個領域裡面我們局裡掌握的訊息就是有關區域安全我們跟日方有沒有辦法做一個就是戰略訊息的交流交換能夠大家相互支持穩定這個區域安全"},{"start":2350.489,"end":2375.557,"text":"一起回應委員剛有提到韓國還有日本跟我們之間的一個互動狀況那因為都是區域裡面的離內相近的國家那當然政府之間有各種的管道在進行溝通跟聯繫那就我負責的本局的業務來講因為情報交流一般比較有它的機敏性那也希望委員可以諒解那假如可以容許的話我們可以私下找機會跟委員做一些比較細部的報告好 謝謝"},{"start":2377.828,"end":2395.454,"text":"这个就是刚好十五大开完了中国大陆特别强调它在量子科技生物制造氢能与核聚变能脑机接口变身智能另外6G的发展部分它要走到领导地位因为这个东西对我们来讲"},{"start":2396.334,"end":2414.92,"text":"不只是一個威脅那麼也會影響整個區域的市場導向因為它會設定這個裝備的規範它設定遊戲規則那我們如何因應這個未來它的科技的成長大幅領先我們自己本身有沒有一個預應的方案請教"},{"start":2415.74,"end":2443.682,"text":"好 對 確實正如委員所提到在這一次的市中全會有所謂155的一個初步的規劃那當然它155的相關的規劃還要再做一些內部的修改以便送到明年的這個兩會來進行正式的公佈來推動相關政府後續的執行的一個動作那確實它這一次有點聚焦在所謂的新職生產力特別聚焦在高新科技的一個發展"},{"start":2444.122,"end":2459.399,"text":"那這個部分還連結到中國積極的去參與國際的一些標準制定規範的國際組織那也就是要連結到可能未來的國際標準規範能夠綁到所謂中國的相關一些產品的一個規格這個我們會"},{"start":2461.2,"end":2486.773,"text":"繼續來注意不過在這個發展過程當中也跟委員說明一下因為有遭遇到美國在一些高科技管制的一些措施所以我們有去了解一下中共相關的產業他們在政府的規劃之下他們也有一些顧慮特別是未來在很多的一些先進的設備或是半導體的取得可能也會受到美國這種非紅供應鏈以及科技"},{"start":2487.313,"end":2505.821,"text":"餐廳管制的一些效應那當然中共也在扶植他本土的相關的企業不過這部分可能是他在推動這些新職生產力或高新科技一個蠻重要的一個隱憂是 這個部分我們建議貴局要聚焦要花更多錢掌握一個狀況好 應該的最後一個 這個就是"},{"start":2510.163,"end":2532.621,"text":"金门的进限制水域这是今天早上的图在这个图里面显示了下面很多的黄色商船有七八条那么就通过金门的进限制水域另外下面很多的圆圈的都是毛破有颜色的是代表开了AIS"},{"start":2533.635,"end":2547.29,"text":"那灰色的就代表它關掉了那這個裡面就有可能是中共的漁船有別的任務或者是海警船進來關掉那這個禁限制水域我們不能叫灰色"},{"start":2548.685,"end":2569.042,"text":"但实际上呢因为国军在那边并没有部署海军而是由这个所谓的我们的海巡署在那边因为执法的船有限那对这个整个情势的掌握会影响到金门的安全那这个是因为我刚刚8点40去截取最新的资料那另外一个就是在今年底"},{"start":2569.622,"end":2580.38,"text":"他的厦门的祥安机场叫完工了因为他是IKEA的成员所以他公布他机场起降涵盖指导区半个金门呢"},{"start":2581.55,"end":2605.808,"text":"左上半边都是在它的管辖区将来这种情势对我们实质上当然我们基于非安人道精神上面我们是尊重但是对于我们实质的管辖权或者情报分享部分我们希望局里面能够掌握这部分不只是配合国防部乃至于陆委会或者是海巡署因为这里面有很多"},{"start":2606.528,"end":2622.886,"text":"重要的就是说有可能是混进商船或者是混进里面他就公然在你门口下锚停在那边迟滞那有的时候关GIS有时候根本不理你那我们做如何的应处我是觉得早一点做准备听听局长的看法"},{"start":2623.406,"end":2644.208,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒事實上海巡署在我們外離島建置的這些所謂船艦的能量也都會到第一線來排除相關的狀況跟確認相關船艦的位置還有屬性甚至我們這邊也會去分析他們船艦進入到我們的淨線制水域有沒有一些不同的樣態我印象沒有記錯的話應該已經有八九種不同的樣態"},{"start":2646.63,"end":2663.31,"text":"那這我們會持續的就整體性來做搜研第二個是針對個案的部分有沒有哪些個別的船艦有一些比較偽異常的活動那除了委員所提到的會關閉AIS以外它有的還會冒用不同船隻的MMSI的訊號所以這部分也確實造成我們在"},{"start":2664.331,"end":2681.291,"text":"監控相關水域的執行上的難度在增加當中不過我們確實有召開一些跨部會的協調我也曾經召會海巡署針對這個部分在通報、辯證以及驅離的過程當中怎麼樣讓我們國安情報機關可以更分享相關的資訊"},{"start":2682.412,"end":2710.857,"text":"那海巡目前也在爭取行政院建置更多的一個船艦應該委員也知道應該有對外說明是應該有200多億的台幣的一個船艦造艦計劃那我們希望假如預算有通過的話可以提升海巡在這方面的能量好 謝謝我們希望大家共同努力好 謝謝陳永康委員的質詢那蔡局長先請回我們補充介紹到場的委員我們羅美玲委員"},{"start":2712.486,"end":2729.355,"text":"還有林楚英委員那我們確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議的議事錄有遺漏錯誤或是需要更正之處好那我們議事錄確定好我們接著請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請蔡局長好我們請蔡局長"},{"start":2747.661,"end":2774.381,"text":"謝謝主席 羅委員早局長早 局長本期今天早上想跟局長聊一聊日本新首相高士早苗我們都知道高士早苗向來他的態度就是親美友台像今年四月份高士早苗他以眾議院的身份來到台灣的時候其實受到台派人士的歡迎所以這次高士的當選我想大家都距離很"},{"start":2774.821,"end":2790.172,"text":"深的祝福之外其實對他是有很大的期待今年4月份其實高市回到日本之後他有提到他就公開的建議就是說日本跟台灣應該要建立準安全聯盟"},{"start":2790.712,"end":2805.218,"text":"他在當眾議員的時候他其實就已經提出了這樣子的構想那甚至在當選這個自民黨的黨魁之後呢他再次重申了這個安倍的這個名言就是台灣有事就是日本有事我想這句話其實意義非常的深"},{"start":2806.138,"end":2816.707,"text":"不是說你是我的兄弟那種感覺其實高市也好安倍也好他很清楚就是說在地緣政治來講或者是在區域安全來講的話確確實實就是台灣有事日本一定會有事所以為什麼這次高市當選為首相之後他主張將國防軍費佔GDP2%的目標提前到今年底就要完成"},{"start":2832.139,"end":2857.766,"text":"原先是明年底他提早兩年來完成所以變成就是說他很清楚這個區域安全的重要性這個國防安全軍備的重要性所以以過去這個高市他對於台灣這種友台的態度對於中國的態度過去來講他是比較強硬的所以我想請教就是說以高市的這友台的態度跟強化對中"},{"start":2859.346,"end":2875.221,"text":"警戒跟制衡的狀況之下未來會如何影響東亞的局勢我想委員剛剛已經很完整的把高市首相的一些安保政策的一個路線跟思維做得非常明顯的一個清楚的一個勾勒"},{"start":2875.942,"end":2905.11,"text":"那大概判斷上來講第一個他會強化美日安保那在昨天的這個川高會吧過程當中也去提到了要讓美日安保進入新的黃金年代展示了加強美日安保的一個決心那他也認為美日安保有一些弱項要去強化那包括要去加強日本的遠程打擊的火力那以及網路作戰的能力那這一部分幾乎切入的角度就是在於美日安保比較弱的一個項目"},{"start":2905.45,"end":2927.894,"text":"看起來他有這樣的一個決心那透過防衛預算的增加來支應日本這一方面的一個財政的支援那第二部分是在美日安保的架構之下他很有可能還會去串聯出所謂美日加N的一個更多邊的合作機制那這也是委員剛好提到那高市有一直在倡議可能美日加上其他的理念相近國家"},{"start":2928.614,"end":2950.745,"text":"應該有這種準安全合作準安全同盟的概念所以我想第二個重點就在於一個穩固的美日安保之下所延伸出來的美日加恩理念相近國家的合作機制那這樣的合作機制有可能反映的是包括在供應鏈的安全包括在應處區域的這些比較揮帶的騷擾或中共的一個軍事動態"},{"start":2952.006,"end":2959.946,"text":"那就本局來講我們當然有我們的管道在進行這方面的戰略溝通那不過可能不適合來公開的說明這樣"},{"start":2961.387,"end":2978.52,"text":"所以你們其實在高市早苗上任之後其實台灣有很多這方面的管道在跟我們日本新的政府在做溝通因為高市一再的強調所謂的FOIP這也是2016年安倍所提出來的"},{"start":2983.904,"end":2995.657,"text":"一個自由開放的印太區域的這個構想我想他也說台灣其實可以創立這個準安全同盟所以我們也在認為說他上任之後是不是準安全同盟這個構想會成形可能是指日可待的只是說這樣子的一個同盟的它的一個"},{"start":3005.848,"end":3028.753,"text":"過去的這個態度會不會說造成一個東亞一個新的一個局面它跟過去石破茂的這個態度其實是有一點不太一樣的它處事的方式還有積極度來講的話我在想對東亞未來的局勢應該會有一定的影響可能局長覺得說這方面不是這個時候不是那麼的方便來"},{"start":3029.893,"end":3040.529,"text":"做說明嗎還是怎麼樣我們基本上講的這些政策發展方向都是對的也都有在進行我剛剛只是在說明說有些進行的實際的狀況比較不適合公開的討論這種所謂的安全的合作"},{"start":3045.155,"end":3067.137,"text":"現在的安全觀幾乎都是比較綜合性的安全觀所以我才會跟委員報告這種綜合性安全觀之下的一個合作有可能是包括經濟安全的有可能是包括非從統安全的那也有可能是針對傳統安全軍事活動相關情資的交換或是戰略溝通的機制這個部分都會透過各種管道用方式來進行這樣"},{"start":3068.138,"end":3085.857,"text":"OK 好了解謝謝局長再來下一題就是要提到這兩天我在想局長你應該有注意到那個報導就是中國籍的偷渡客在等待遣返的期間可能會造成一些國安的疑慮我們在想說以目前的這個現行的收容制度對這偷渡客尤其是中國的"},{"start":3086.337,"end":3104.99,"text":"偷渡客是不是造成了很大的一個漏洞那像現行的這個制度的話這個偷渡客被逮捕之後就會進入司法的審理我們會移交移民署會移交到地檢署然後進行司法的審理之後就會進入到收容所可是收容所它收容的時間最長就150天"},{"start":3106.572,"end":3122.829,"text":"我們也知道說現在我們跟中國之間遣返的作業其實也幾乎是等於停滯所以他收容了150天之後就轉為收容替代處分"},{"start":3123.61,"end":3148.304,"text":"也就是在收容替代處分這段期間它其實是可以在台灣爬爬造的所以最近這兩天我們看到這報導也有說來到台灣之後回到那裡突然間就把在台灣過去這個在收容替代處分期間所拍攝到的一些影片然後上傳到YouTube然後再來跟大家說明說我是怎麼樣偷渡的我的路線是怎麼樣等等"},{"start":3149.204,"end":3170.019,"text":"讓人覺得說我們台灣對這方面真的非常的鬆散所以我想請教局長我們國安單位有沒有要來做檢討到底目前我們現行的制度是不是存在了一些風險我們有沒有做過評估因為他們絕對不是單純的移民管理的問題他們是中國的偷渡客之前我有看檢察總長曾經提說目前我們看到中國的偷渡客很多跟過去不太一樣"},{"start":3176.904,"end":3199.43,"text":"過去的話大概就是偷渡過來就是躲躲藏藏可是他們現在不是他等著你來抓他是他們都已經研究過了沒關係我就是等你們來抓我然後我進入到收容所之後我就等待那個空窗期那我就開始來收集情資這是不是造成很大的安全的漏洞我們這部分有沒有來做檢討有沒有做討論跟我說明一下這大概分為幾個部分第一個部分當然是不要"},{"start":3200.15,"end":3226.034,"text":"有偷渡客上岸因為一上岸之後就會啟動我們所謂的入出國管理法的一些處置程序那第二部分是針對這些偷渡客相關比較全面性的樣態我們都有在分析來自於哪個地方他偷渡的求渡的工具是什麼那以及他個人的一些背景我們會做一些交叉比對來看有沒有一些基本的樣態這是第二部分"},{"start":3226.494,"end":3248.42,"text":"那第三部分是針對個案的部分那每一個偷渡客他可能有不同的狀況我們會來了解一下每一個個案的實際的一個情形那他假如走完我們的法律程序之後沒有辦法立刻遣送回中國的話那當然會進入到委員所提到的替代收容的一個階段那這部分當然就是他每天都要定期到指定的一個警察機關來做報導"},{"start":3250.16,"end":3275.105,"text":"那假如說有比較特殊的案例的話那我們國安情報機關也會再特別注意一下他們的動態有沒有去侵犯到我們的一個國安的疑慮可是本席是懷疑說剛才局長講的都沒有落實為什麼有些偷渡客他可以到 就是在你說每天都要去報到嘛可是為什麼他有時間到小琉球去拍影片他可以到處趴趴照"},{"start":3275.925,"end":3291.645,"text":"所以這個我們真的有在落實可能也許是空有法令可是沒有實際上的執行我想這國安單位都要來檢討再來的話是針對這種中國籍的偷渡客真的樣態真的跟過去不太一樣"},{"start":3292.906,"end":3320.694,"text":"所以說我覺得這部分真的是要重新來做檢討他們真的不是一般的移民管理的問題跟一般的非法逃獄移工是不一樣的針對這些對象我們要如何加強來管理尤其是這些反正你等著我們的檢調單位等著警察來海巡等著他們來拘捕然後一副跟過去真的不一樣的這些都是很特殊很特別的樣態要特別的去做留意"},{"start":3320.934,"end":3345.924,"text":"我們謝謝委員的提醒那我們也會持續的來跟移民單位來畢竟夜館單位是在移民單位那在這些大陸偷渡客替代收容的階段他的一個活動的形態是不是該有更多的一個規範那這部分我們來跟移民單位做討論那我特別強調的是只要真的是有比較特殊或有問題為異常 為常異常的個案那我們會有特殊的方式專案來處理"},{"start":3347.885,"end":3362.468,"text":"這部分可能我可能會再找國安局再來討論因為針對這個部分我們覺得其實其實不是那麼的單純我們是不是太過於松散了OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅美玲委員那蔡局長先請為好 接下來有請陳婷筠委員陳婷筠 蔡局長"},{"start":3380.728,"end":3405.879,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請蔡局長有請蔡局長好 局長早各位很早局長 就中共所召開的這個市中全會觀察以及後續的相關動態我想在上次的質詢當中這個主題我想再延續來請教我們局長上次跟局長您詢問到這個市中全會"},{"start":3407.119,"end":3431.554,"text":"他相關的這個預測在這個上週四會議落幕之後我們從公開的這個資訊當中也看到確實除了這個十五五的這個規劃之外在會前就有包括這個何衛東苗華等九名上將因違反他們黨紀的相關問題涉嫌嚴重職務犯罪數額特大"},{"start":3433.322,"end":3457.907,"text":"特別巨大 被開除黨籍及軍籍造成軍事降臨一波人事動盪甚至解放軍報還發表社論指責他們信仰坍塌 忠誠失節嚴重破壞黨指揮槍原則和軍委主席的負責制等等由此聯想 除了"},{"start":3459.127,"end":3469.717,"text":"反腐敗的官方事由之外這九名上將是否可能有其他的罪名我們國安局有沒有相關的掌握訊息"},{"start":3472.19,"end":3492.26,"text":"對 剛剛委員在投影片上面大概也把這次四中全會我們觀察的重點議題也都大概羅列出來了謝謝大概可以看到的是這九名上將遭到雙開顯示說可能共軍內部這種貪腐跟忠誠的問題非常嚴重我們也注意到像委員提到的中共的軍媒"},{"start":3493.26,"end":3515.337,"text":"軍方的媒體在評論這些案件的時候用字遣詞非常的強烈是以前比較沒有看到的一個狀況那我上次也跟委員報告事實上不只這九名我們掌握的有16名的上將大概從去年12月到現在都沒有公開露面所以當時也跟委員預測說可能會有比較大規模的整肅跟調查的一個動作"},{"start":3516.318,"end":3529.934,"text":"另外是在這一次的市中全會的過程當中比較值得注意的是原本是應該有205位的中央委員但是出席的只有168位有37位是沒有出席的"},{"start":3531.015,"end":3556.283,"text":"因為沒有出席的包括之前被查辦的以及剛剛跟委員說明的長期沒有出現的那比例非常的高等於是佔了205名裡面的18%那這代表說那個調查的規模非常的大那另外延續性的問題也跟在畫面上委員所提到的就中央軍委的部分那中央軍委看起來是維持4名的中央軍委那並沒有再增補人員"},{"start":3557.143,"end":3577.194,"text":"而且剛跟委員提到的中央委員的候補、地補的11名的名單也都跳過了軍方的代表所以這整體看下來可能顯示習近平對於軍方的降臨還是不太信任所以由張生明來直接接任軍委副主席因為張生明已經67歲了"},{"start":3578.655,"end":3600.509,"text":"所以我們判斷上比較像是一個過渡性的人物不過他反映的是中共領導人對於軍方比較年輕一代將領的不信任所以中軍委的這種組成結構的縮小化那會不會造成領導人在軍事決策的偏聽或是造成一些軍事決策風險那這部分我們會再來注意好"},{"start":3602.47,"end":3621.21,"text":"就即便他們這個剛剛那個局長您所說的缺席的這個名單雖然他們有一些這個人因為是習近平主持的這個市中全會會缺席就蠻奇怪了那他們缺席的名單沒有公布那缺席的人這麼多是不是代表"},{"start":3621.99,"end":3643.481,"text":"在這一輪的整肅的高層官員當中遠多於我們報導的人數那這個情況到底是怎樣我們國安局有沒有確實去了解他有 這我們都有了解缺席的名單我們通通都有掌握然後他有的是軍方的有的是政府部門的有的是黨務部門的所以看起來範圍是蠻廣的"},{"start":3645.282,"end":3673.436,"text":"那以前也沒有看過缺席狀況有這麼高那再加上剛剛在各位說明的連地埔的委員都跳過軍方的代表那這個老實講已經打破了我們長期對中共黨政運作觀察的一些慣例所以幾乎反映的一個意涵是在於在習近平獨攬軍權跟政權的情況之下已經開始出現一些新的運作模式或人事任命的一個方式這是比較全新的一個做法"},{"start":3674.716,"end":3693.464,"text":"另外我想請教我們局長在這次的公報當中顯示了中國在下一個五年經濟發展的規劃主要的方向他其中對台的部分只有提到要推動兩岸關係和平發展推動祖國統一大業這幾個字基本上"},{"start":3694.324,"end":3713.35,"text":"看起來就是老調重談在這次市中全會的公報內容與國安會預測的內容是否一致其中是否隱藏有什麼政治意涵局長你怎麼解讀就事實上在市中全會之前它的地方的黨部已經密集的在開會"},{"start":3714.43,"end":3740.5,"text":"我們的方法論大概是從這些密集的地方性的黨務會議當中我們就會去收集延期在正式的四中全會可能會有哪些議題做呈現以及呈現在四中全會的公報裡面基本上我們的觀察是發現到說在這一次的公報當中並沒有特別去針對習近平的接班的問題有任何的隱含式的討論 沒有"},{"start":3741.48,"end":3756.28,"text":"那這代表他在大權在握之下可能還沒有在這一部分的接班佈局做更進一步的安排那第二部分是我們也預測到那可能在之前跟我們報告的軍方將領的大規模的清洗情況之下"},{"start":3756.861,"end":3779.655,"text":"那可能習近平在軍方的人事的任命上會非常的謹慎慎重那從實際的四中全會發展也大概印證了這樣的一個觀察不管是在中央委員的地補或是在中央軍委會的人員的地補上那看起來他都非常的保守所以大概我們事前預判的方式以及"},{"start":3780.856,"end":3801.741,"text":"跟原來的觀察大概差別不大那上次委員也有指導到市中全會經貿上的可能的重點那大概也跟委員之前報告的狀況差不多新職生產力擴大內需刺激國內的動能以及開放貿易好 那軍委方面我想有一個問題想請教局長這一次這個由這個張申明"},{"start":3804.362,"end":3824.396,"text":"來接任這個軍委的副主席安排那我們判斷可能是出於什麼樣的這個考量是否代表後續可能還會有大規模的一個內部整肅那另外先前也提到中國的這個國防部長董軍可能會出自於什麼樣的原因導致他沒有辦法接任中央軍委的這個位置我們國安局怎麼判斷"},{"start":3825.156,"end":3843.593,"text":"對 因為張申明來接任中央軍委的副主席剛好說明過因為他年紀是比較長一點 已經67歲了更不要講張又俠已經72了吧這代表說他對於年輕的將領還沒有那麼信任我們判斷是應該都還有在做一些相關的考核跟調查"},{"start":3843.993,"end":3867.171,"text":"而在大規模的考核跟調查完成之前讓可能中共領導人在任命軍方的人士他非常的非常的謹慎這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分是針對董軍的部分那因為董軍是有國防部長的身份那傳統上國防部長負責的主要是對外的國防的交流那從董軍沒有進入到中央軍委會"},{"start":3867.891,"end":3893.42,"text":"我們的一個解讀可能還是在於說因為習近平現在軍權在握他也沒有特別在意說要不要讓負責國際交流的國防部長進入到軍委會這個作戰指揮或軍中管理體系裡面來所以可能他的評估看起來跟過去是比較不一樣不過這部分可能還要持續觀察以前真的是沒有發生過親民中央軍委"},{"start":3894.74,"end":3918.224,"text":"目前只有4名的狀況還運作這麼久以前沒有所以我剛才才跟委員說明是一個新的運作的方式好 那目前這個解放軍在指揮層的這個缺員是否會影響到他們對台的規劃和能力那在增補前的這一段期間中共有沒有可能會採取其他的行動來轉移內部的壓力這部分局長您的看法"},{"start":3919.044,"end":3947.094,"text":"對 他大概懸缺的這些軍事的重要的指揮或司令員的這些職務都有相關的一個代理人這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分的說明是也確實從他這兩年來的大規模的整肅不管是火箭軍的系統 軍備的系統 還是政工的系統在整肅調查的過程當中中共的軍事演訓也都持續地在進行"},{"start":3947.734,"end":3968.881,"text":"那所以這不能排除說中共是透過軍事演訓在轉移軍中內部整肅的這個焦點那也透過軍事演訓來讓部隊能夠軍心比較穩定一點聚焦在一些軍事訓練的活動那第三個部分可能也要注意的就是說在上層的中共的軍事將領到遭到大規模的整肅跟清洗之後"},{"start":3969.361,"end":3981.14,"text":"年輕一代將領為了求積極的表現會不會在有一些對外的軍事活動出現一些比較爭取表現或冒進的動作這個部分我們還在持續的觀察跟分析"},{"start":3981.991,"end":4003.844,"text":"好 那從這次這個市中全會從會前到會後那何局長你討論下來我覺得我們國安局確實也有在掌握那可是後續的一些中共和解放軍他內部的相關情報也請我們國安局持續掌握掌握能夠積極的去了解是好 謝謝 謝謝局長好 謝謝那也謝謝剛才前面兩位委員的代班好"},{"start":4011.479,"end":4033.32,"text":"好 我們接下來進行詢問大家的委員是林楚英委員謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 林委員早"},{"start":4034.141,"end":4049.239,"text":"局長早安我想這個有關於中國對於台灣的這個文攻武嚇之外現在是不是已經步步逼近到對於我們中華民國的立法委員的人身安全也遭到中國的鎖定我們知道"},{"start":4049.859,"end":4074.811,"text":"我們國防外交委員會的沈博洋委員在昨天中國也就是重慶的公安部的一指這個所謂對外的新聞稿之後那麼他就正式被所謂中國來立案這種所謂的長臂管轄的部分喔那麼真的是影響到了那這個案子我想昨天相關單位包括國安局陸委會應該都有針對這個部分來做一個相關的這個討論是吧"},{"start":4077.194,"end":4096.042,"text":"對 這案子我們很重視很重視 那麼當然中國對於台灣這樣的一個長臂管轄的示範已經不是第一次但是我想沈博洋委員這個恐怕會是第一個這樣的一個案例那麼現在甚至於開始有前立委在臉書"},{"start":4098.417,"end":4115.093,"text":"說如果沈伯陽委員只要一旦離開台灣那麼中國可能就會對他進行逮捕首先我想要詢問的是國安局對這個部分包括沈伯陽委員的人身安全有沒有再進行進一步的關心跟了解"},{"start":4115.914,"end":4133.393,"text":"好 這大概幾個部分就這個動作來講我們把它解讀是中共刻意的羅織罪名來針對不同意見的人士來進行跨域的脅迫當然我們自由民主國家是不管政府或國人不會容許有這樣的一個脅迫動作那國際社會也不會"},{"start":4134.574,"end":4162.404,"text":"也不會認同這大概是基本問題的本質至於委員本身的一個安全的問題我們也會跟相關的警政單位在境內的時候要來注意也要避免到有在地協力者會去對委員做一些跟蹤或是其他的一個脅迫的動作這個不能排除所以要做好相關的一個準備另外就是境外的部分境外的部分確實也要注意到因為中共它跟一些比較友好的"},{"start":4163.024,"end":4182.893,"text":"友中親中的國家那他可能有他的一些引渡的一個措施那這部分我也會建議那個鋪馬委員這邊可能也要稍微注意一下對於那些比較親中友中的國家還是海外行程還是要注意一下就是要提高警戒對要提高警戒但是局長會不會覺得在這個時刻就有人特別透過臉書"},{"start":4184.153,"end":4202.629,"text":"然後來散發這樣的一個訊息是不是有一種好像不管是幸災樂禍也好或者是藉機幫中國來進行恫嚇也好就是好像認為真的對外就宣稱好像中國對於台灣甚至於台灣的政治人物民意代表具有這樣的一個"},{"start":4203.81,"end":4218.198,"text":"境外的所謂長臂管轄的權利那麼這樣的說法是不是也會造成恐慌那也就是說有一個案例之後可以有更多的案例那麼這個對於國人來說當然我們一方面我們要提高警覺之外是不是這樣的言論也會有助於中國在用別的形式來恫嚇台灣人民"},{"start":4223.201,"end":4246.296,"text":"我想這部分委員說的沒有錯,事實上中共這樣的動作宣示性比較大,沒有實質的意義,因為它不可能能夠跨進到我們國家裡面來所謂的常備管轄。不過在國內的討論過程當中,我們還是會建議不要去落入中共所設的議題框架,"},{"start":4246.696,"end":4264.297,"text":"因為他操作這個議題進行這種跨境的脅迫目的就是在對台灣進行法律戰心理戰跟輿論戰那假如不小心落入中共的論述框架的話你是在助長他進行這樣的一個政治宣示達到一個恫嚇的效果所以這部分我們是強烈的不建議好"},{"start":4264.838,"end":4282.896,"text":"那麼其實這個部分可以看到中國用各種方式來對台灣進行所謂您剛剛說的法律戰 輿論戰尤其是心理戰剛剛羅美玲委員所問的就是中國利用所謂偷渡的形式是不是也是另外一種滲透台灣的方式"},{"start":4283.456,"end":4309.376,"text":"那麼剛剛我有特別聽到的是局長特別提到的是對於他們目前的樣態如果是有特殊性的話你們會做其他專案的處理但是我再來幫這個局長來做一個脈絡上面的說明然後我們再來進行討論希望局長可以有更進一步的這個說明就是2024年的6月中國籍的前海軍的艦長這位軟性的艦長他是"},{"start":4312.759,"end":4317.381,"text":"架著這個艦艇偷渡來台灣2025年的2月他服刑期滿之後就送到移民署來收容2025年的7月就今年7月他收容屆滿之後就變成是收容替代處分就在台灣生活可是在這樣的一個過程當中他竟然可以接受媒體的訪問把這樣的方式分享出去而且他所選擇的媒體是透過YouTube頻道也就是"},{"start":4341.673,"end":4371.073,"text":"事實上我說大家都知道啦中國的人除非翻牆啦當然說現在國台辦也直接示範翻牆給全中國人民看翻牆無罪只要有關係就沒關係但是顯然這種就是一種對外的宣示表示說台灣今天你要想辦法偷渡而且你要在台灣輕輕鬆鬆的落地生活這個漏洞在這裡而且示範給大家看果不其然前兩天進週刊又報導了另外一位"},{"start":4372.074,"end":4385.326,"text":"也是偷渡成功那麼他的說法甚至於是講說他本來要去菲律賓但是我們都知道以他的這個所謂他的配備根本到不了菲律賓甚至於檢查他的手機他是甚至於有去"},{"start":4386.494,"end":4409.057,"text":"查詢Google過這一位軟性的這個所謂中國籍的軟性的海軍的將領軍官的這個來偷渡來台灣的方式那麼我要講的就是如果以目前這個狀態他的漏洞就存在於入出國籍移民法以及兩岸人民關係條例這個部分就是當他在服刑期滿可是當中國"},{"start":4410.258,"end":4428.756,"text":"講白了就是中國不想要把它帶回去那麼我們就送不了它所以這個案例它已經顯現出了法律上的漏洞那麼我想請問國安局跟陸委會跟移民署有沒有要就這個法律漏洞把它補起來因為太多個案而且可能個案未來是一個一個應接不暇"},{"start":4431.278,"end":4457.973,"text":"對 就每一個個案的狀況可能都不盡相同那委員剛剛的一個諮詢主要的聚焦的議題是在於說在他服完刑期之後替代收容期間到底怎麼樣來做一些管理那這部分有跟夜管單位移民署做過一些討論那移民署確實有一些行為的規範那至於委員所提到的那個接受媒體的採訪的部分我們還有特別去了解目前的規範沒有限制這樣的一個動作"},{"start":4459.634,"end":4488.099,"text":"不過我們也有了解他採訪的過程他大概都主要是跟海外的中國民運人士在討論中國的人權壓迫相關的一個問題所以相關的資訊我們會持續來注意那另外在制度上有沒有怎麼樣來防弊的部分那這部分我們再跟移民單位來做進一步的討論因為我剛剛也在跟羅美玲委員說明因為每個個案的狀況都不盡相同但是假如有比較微常異常的個案的話我們會特別來注意"},{"start":4488.359,"end":4511.35,"text":"好那麼如果是這樣的話局長認為現在這兩個個案有沒有違常有沒有異常的部分因為我知道局長現在當然面對這個法規上面確實沒有明確的規定的時候是很難去做判定的但是像這樣他可以直接大剌剌的接受媒體的訪問甚至於可以透過"},{"start":4512.911,"end":4534.808,"text":"這樣的方式變成是另外一種的教學就是入侵台灣的一個教學或者是滲透台灣的教學甚至於他可以在台灣趴趴走拿手機然後收集情資等等我說實話啦這樣子真的不用在野黨提什麼中配六改四啦用這個方法就可以直接入侵台灣而且留下來在台灣生活只要做幾年牢就好了"},{"start":4536.348,"end":4550.357,"text":"對 完全了解委員的關切那事實上之前就一直有在注意這樣的一個狀況那針對替代收容期間的一些行為的規範那我剛才跟委員報告說明過我們再跟移民單位好 那麼可不可以就是再找時間針對這個部分把這樣的樣態我們除了做進一步討論之外也能夠對外做一個公告我相信相關的單位也知道這樣子什麼樣的樣態不可行那如果這樣的樣態不可行的時候我們到底要怎麼處理是再把它"},{"start":4565.587,"end":4587.771,"text":"抓進去關嗎也不太可能台灣是一個自由民主的國家那讓他留在台灣是不是就會成為新的滲透者或在地協力者我希望國安局跟移民署還有陸委會要一起來把這個問題做一個解決因為問題已經出現了好我們來注意好謝謝林楚英委員局長請回接下來進行巡導委員馬文君委員"},{"start":4600.736,"end":4601.902,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請局長來 局長請"},{"start":4609.318,"end":4615.68,"text":"好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們"},{"start":4637.828,"end":4647.157,"text":"大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期"},{"start":4658.647,"end":4663.55,"text":"芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎"},{"start":4682.003,"end":4696.411,"text":"好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼"},{"start":4697.111,"end":4713.212,"text":"那政務委員所提到在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難"},{"start":4714.613,"end":4739.482,"text":"針對芬太尼還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題"},{"start":4740.582,"end":4756.284,"text":"不過這部分委員應該也有注意到Rubio國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇這是他的官方宣示而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話"},{"start":4757.726,"end":4772.363,"text":"美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述不過實際的援手互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣"},{"start":4773.204,"end":4777.987,"text":"雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後"},{"start":4801.882,"end":4812.032,"text":"大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上"},{"start":4818.658,"end":4822.822,"text":"可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變"},{"start":4838.058,"end":4841.28,"text":"會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應"},{"start":4865.074,"end":4884.229,"text":"所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這一個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛"},{"start":4895.017,"end":4911.786,"text":"大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊"},{"start":4917.671,"end":4945.065,"text":"好 就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們"},{"start":4945.825,"end":4967.062,"text":"了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個"},{"start":4968.323,"end":4993.077,"text":"比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的準確"},{"start":4993.117,"end":4998.561,"text":"我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好"},{"start":5009.209,"end":5014.071,"text":"我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害"},{"start":5037.257,"end":5044.819,"text":"所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌"},{"start":5065.803,"end":5069.526,"text":"把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也"},{"start":5082.036,"end":5100.144,"text":"大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備"},{"start":5102.465,"end":5119.509,"text":"聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機"},{"start":5122.048,"end":5144.658,"text":"最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是"},{"start":5145.959,"end":5149.382,"text":"自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生"},{"start":5166.476,"end":5179.971,"text":"這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式"},{"start":5180.632,"end":5200.238,"text":"或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案它有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論"},{"start":5201.878,"end":5221.125,"text":"那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發聲尤其像國安單位或國防部"},{"start":5224.406,"end":5229.81,"text":"每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實用使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢所以在預算上面既然我們要編那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望"},{"start":5249.924,"end":5264.566,"text":"提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來我一句話跟委員報告因為我們是國家情報機關"},{"start":5265.427,"end":5291.584,"text":"主要是針對這個現象情質我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做數號的報告謝謝馬文君委員國安局我們其實已經有修訂法律如果沒有經允許在國防採購用中國的零組件是三年以下有期徒刑那個不是減量發包的問題"},{"start":5293.498,"end":5298.822,"text":"對 好 謝謝接下來進行詢問的委員是徐曉欣委員謝謝主席 我們是不是有請國安局長來 局長請謝謝主席 徐委員早"},{"start":5316.125,"end":5339.913,"text":"早 那今天想要詢問就是在月中的時候那中共官方他們其實也不是第一次了他們有貼出這個懸賞我國這個新戰大隊人員的個資跟照片那當然我知道他是隸屬國防部的政戰局新戰大隊但是他這個是攸關國安問題所以今天也想要來詢問一下國安局的"},{"start":5341.153,"end":5362.099,"text":"那除了這個國防部主管之外那我想要請問國安局在這個議題上面的研究那狀態到底是什麼樣子然後呢後續有沒有能夠協處的這個情形謝委員關切這個問題因為這涉及到我們國軍官兵的個資還有甚至是人身安全"},{"start":5363.999,"end":5392.939,"text":"已經有幾波的中共公布這樣的我們的國軍官兵的個資那大概的狀況有點就是在進行所謂的常備管轄進行這種心理戰或輿論的一個恫嚇那這些名單以委員現在畫面所呈現的新戰大隊來講那有很多是中共方面它透過公開情資去做拼湊的委員可能會知道因為新戰隊的這些相關的國軍官兵的同仁"},{"start":5393.419,"end":5421.074,"text":"他們有的都是在我們的國軍的媒體當記者包括像是那個青年日報或是漢森電台所以從公開情資就可以收集到早年歷來的這些相關的個資那中共只是把這些過去公開的個資做拼湊那有些照片也貼錯了然後那個身份也都是錯誤的那甚至可以跟委員報告還有當事人跑去警局報案"},{"start":5421.394,"end":5441.981,"text":"我理解因為我有看到相關的新聞但是因為這個錯誤的資訊他也有錯誤資訊衍生的這個問題就是說他現在發布這個懸賞通告那如果他有一些是錯誤的資訊但是有這樣子一個當事人那他未來他可能到港澳或者是說他到中國大陸的時候他被懸賞了"},{"start":5443.061,"end":5465.825,"text":"但他可能其實他可以去的原因是因為他根本就不是他根本就不是我們星戰的隊員那他當然他是沒有管制嘛那他當然是可以到大陸或是港澳那結果呢他竟然是在因為一個錯誤資訊然後是被懸賞的這個狀態那對這上面的這些當事人來說是不是他就變成是一個缺乏保護的機制"},{"start":5466.525,"end":5489.598,"text":"那我們在國安局在這整個包含是我們這個新戰大隊實際上面就是說正確的資訊的引力避免這個中共的這個掌握或是滲透以及錯誤的資訊上面如何去保障我們國人他不管在旅遊或者是他平常時行動的這個安全上面那局長這裡有沒有一些可以提供說明跟參考的"},{"start":5490.058,"end":5510.079,"text":"大概跟委員做幾個面向的資訊的補充跟說明那第一個部分是怎麼樣來防範有國軍官兵弟兄的各自外流的部分那這個議題因為前一陣子馬文君委員也有關切那也希望本局提供一個本局的做法來給國防部的單位做參考"},{"start":5510.7,"end":5537.943,"text":"那我們已經有完整的把這個本局的做法跟馬委員這邊提供書面的報告那也把這個書面的報告提供給國防部做參考希望能夠來阻止進一步的國軍官兵弟兄資訊的外流這是第一部分那第二部分是有一些被外流的這些名單那假如是過去曾經在國防部服役的弟兄因為剛剛有跟委員說明因為過去的公開情資有可能國軍包括接受頒獎還有擔任記者都會有名單外流"},{"start":5538.243,"end":5563.065,"text":"那這部分國防部我來幫國防部說明一下雖然不是我的夜館那他們有一個輔導的機制那會逐一的來跟這些同仁來做接觸跟說明那看有沒有要協助的地方包括他們的家人那有沒有在假如到對岸去經商旅遊遭到刁難所以是有一個機制在的那再來就是委員所提到的第三種狀況他不是當事人但是被貼錯了"},{"start":5564.266,"end":5579.373,"text":"那個頭像以及資訊那這部分確實也要來注意所以我剛才跟委員說明也曾經有當事人遇到這個狀況去跟警方報案他覺得他可能會被誤解那這方面希望說國安局可以多一些協助是因為國防部他們基本上第一個業務眾多"},{"start":5580.834,"end":5606.768,"text":"那第二個可能他們在這個除了這個被發布宣傳通告啊然後有這個借貨消息啊然後或者是說有報案的情況之下可能會去協處但是整體的這個情資的蒐集那我覺得國安局這裡如果能夠協同然後提供相關的這個訊息給國防部雙邊一起協處的話那會更完善因為像您剛提到的三個層次那三個層次都很重要"},{"start":5607.488,"end":5635.233,"text":"但是從國防部的角度來說他可能關注的比較多是他們自己國防部本身新站大隊的成員所以希望在這整個三個層次上面國安局能夠多多給予國防部更多的協助跟委員說明一下因為征戰局本來也就是我們國安情報機關的一個成員所以我們應該會透過我們的機制來再協助另外有一個問題就是關於這個央廣的微波站入侵的問題"},{"start":5638.554,"end":5658.882,"text":"這個當時因為央廣其實是我們國家重要的基礎設施先前有點時間了10月15號的事情那時候我本來就想要詢問不過時間的關係有三名內鬼工程師攻擊官網然後放置中共的五星旗的資安事件當時也有不少的委員來做詢問"},{"start":5660.603,"end":5682.012,"text":"但是另外在去年9月的時候在陽廣的後方圓山山腰的微波站是不是也有一起外籍人士入侵的事件就是說一個德國籍的年輕人他用觀光的名義入境無故侵入了微波發射台的機房內意外遭到反鎖他就沒有辦法離開"},{"start":5683.192,"end":5711.925,"text":"那這個人呢他試圖想要開門但花了好幾個小時那沒有成功那最後呢這個發給德國跟家人朋友求救那後來向外交部去報案那在這個情況之下那國安局對於類似的情況有沒有掌握然後呢像這種到了我們的關鍵基礎設施因為不管他的國籍是什麼他都有可能是都有可能不是說這個人都有可能是被滲透的情況"},{"start":5712.685,"end":5739.122,"text":"因為今天你要滲透或者是說要入侵關鍵基礎設施他不一定要他本國籍的人來做這件事情他也可以委託或是暗示或者是用滲透他國的國籍人員的方式來做這件事情所以說對於我們的關鍵基礎設施不管他是遭到哪一個國籍的人去進去裡面一整個晚上其實他就是一個關鍵基礎設施的重大漏洞"},{"start":5739.622,"end":5763.448,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說以這個事情為例我們在關鍵基礎設施上面要怎麼樣的去做一個國安局有怎麼樣的一個想法就是說我們做好保防的這個措施那盡量就避免不管是說先前的這個大家比較關注的五星旗的這個資安事件或者我覺得更嚴重的是它人直接就進到了這個這個發射機房裡面"},{"start":5767.149,"end":5784.623,"text":"裡面那可不可以請這個局長幫我們做一個說明委員說得沒有錯因為央廣不是一般的廣播公司它在國家緊急危難的時候是負責公眾傳播的所以是定位為關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的維護行政院有相關的跨部會的匯報"},{"start":5785.644,"end":5805.937,"text":"委員所提到的問題我們是成員 部委會報的成員我們會來做比較完整的反應大概有兩個重點一個部分是資安的部分剛剛也在跟馬文君委員做說明很多委外的這些資安公司它可能有一些涉入的背景這個部分可能要做一個比較完整的規範第二個是實體安全的部分"},{"start":5806.337,"end":5828.019,"text":"那公司被不明人士入侵的話那這個部分就代表可能在保安或是保全的維護措施是真的是有明顯的不足當然就關鍵基礎設施的防護在進入到國家比較特殊的狀態之下是會派遣相關的兵力來保護的但是委員在提醒的是在平常情況就應該要更關注這樣的"},{"start":5828.439,"end":5842.772,"text":"是啊 因為他在那個微波發射站機台機房裡面那如果今天這個人他代表這裡有重大的漏洞嘛他如果他今天真的有什麼樣的一個他去輸入發射或是他做任何的這個指示可能就會造成整個我們國家"},{"start":5844.173,"end":5872.57,"text":"的錯誤的這個消息來源所以說既然有一個外籍人士那就可以跑進去了代表這裡有漏洞那希望可以重新檢視這一些在陳平時期非戰時的關鍵基礎設施那有沒有一些實體上面的漏洞除了資安之外實體上的漏洞那重新的去檢查一次避免類似的情況發生因為就行政院的那個關鍵基礎設施的防護匯報的話我們來把委員剛剛的意見來做一個表達"},{"start":5873.11,"end":5876.072,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員 局長請回號接下來進行詢問的委員 謝榮介委員主席我請局長來 局長請"},{"start":5903.735,"end":5910.097,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員長今天我要用何樂威跟你講一個問題沒有問題 謝謝你的黨和局勢的報告看出老總統和我們這個蔡總統的角度不一樣看蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中去選舉突破"},{"start":5934.522,"end":5946.072,"text":"但是老總統他不斷想要聯合美國跟聯合日本來做一個對中國大陸的威力那這種各國當然會使兩方緊張的氣氛上升"},{"start":5956.88,"end":5972.768,"text":"所以在整個東亞的部分甚至擴大到全世界現在是局勢非常快速的在變動那麼你寫到日本的局勢看來好像對我們非常有用你完全是站在老總統的角度之下對安倍首相以後跟這個菅義偉首相"},{"start":5980.953,"end":6003.782,"text":"那麼到酒店到餐廳可以說這蓋安培這優牌完全是採取比較保守對於日本的利益為利益的可能美國人也是以美國的利益為利益那麼我們現在像你這樣不斷要去突破蓋美國結盟蓋日本結盟然後來對抗中國大陸現在看到國企收成起來他這多好"},{"start":6011.363,"end":6027.591,"text":"日本安倍的這個極右派的一個代表所以他就是馬卡 美國中央的偉大所以跟特朗普可以說是講得非常高興所以你這個報告 我想要請教你大總統這樣 聯合日本美國這種意圖對中華的和平發展有幫忙嗎"},{"start":6037.985,"end":6058.46,"text":"我大概跟委員說明跟報告一下因為大概我們國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據我們國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做一個相關的分析那因為以現在的美日安保的合作就像委員觀察的以昨天的峰會來看是非常的緊密他們也認為會進入一個性的"},{"start":6060.382,"end":6067.372,"text":"你認為國旗跟台灣部這麼密切 氣氛這麼好在日本的觀察家來看 有確認爲國旗首相的任期大概多久"},{"start":6074.298,"end":6096.272,"text":"對 以他這任任期大概就是兩年多啦因為他是階梯 兩年多這麼久以目前跟在野黨的一個合作的狀況來講那現在當然是日本維新會已經加入了聯合政府那為什麼公民黨會退出對 那公民黨他主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方所以才會讓高市重新來 所以這是一個水陸的結合啦"},{"start":6099.995,"end":6112.424,"text":"那麼登基 殊民黨的執政 當然我們是祝福殊民黨登基的能在那執政但是有必要把台灣的安危 專保 駕託地跟日本這種結盟 尤其看到國旗動山收雄馬總統是非常的高興啊 認為說他所認定 實施的日本又再回來"},{"start":6125.748,"end":6128.793,"text":"這樣我請教你,這個還要再進一步跟日本結盟來針對中國大陸,來做一個威力性的,五元就是軍事上的保守部"},{"start":6138.284,"end":6153.279,"text":"基本上我們對對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定台海的情勢但是台海的情勢的穩定你也不能夠寄望在中共的善意所以怎麼樣來加強跟國際有我們的合作那不是假蒙你的生意我剛才跟你說你就是要再進一步跟日本結盟所以你相信日本優秀就是台灣優秀的一定日本優秀這個言論"},{"start":6162.756,"end":6173.21,"text":"這個是高市首相他在召開第一次的內閣會議之後他就有提到這樣的一個說法你個人的評論就是說你個人的觀察台灣有受日本的挑釁嗎"},{"start":6178.11,"end":6188.564,"text":"這是高市目前的一個政策立場所以我剛在跟委員報告的是他當選了自民黨首校第一次的記者會他就提到台灣有事就是日本有事有年這個時候 劉傑勝先生來到我們本醫這個座談 他去告這個"},{"start":6194.676,"end":6209.427,"text":"基金會責任他明確表示他登記在日本首相勝負兵工作到日本國防軍事方位對他的觀察他說台灣有史日本派兵的可能性很快"},{"start":6210.748,"end":6222.484,"text":"你如何看待這個公法對啊 日本是一個多元的社會啦當然大家看安保議題有不同的角度那我剛剛跟委員報告的是我們從現在的安倍首相的政府的相關的政策立場來做評估的"},{"start":6227.543,"end":6250.333,"text":"那麼老總統準備要結合美日來對中國大陸進行威力這兩個參與性就到了因為我剛才跟委員說明第一部分我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定但是維持兩岸的穩定過程當中你不能夠只寄望在中國的善意而應該跟國際友盟不管在經濟安全或是在安保安全上能夠有更多的合作來確保區域的現狀開國啦 清朝請你拿去開啊武器都沒有來你現在還要聯合很多人來陷人厭"},{"start":6255.988,"end":6263.154,"text":"這樣說的一套做的一套啊我不會啦 強化國防我想這是全民的共識啊對啦 那你拿一開啊 武器沒進來現在還有現在從你的戰略的問題還要叫日本美國來跟我們道頂來跟中國大陸緩解這樣跟蔡總統"},{"start":6273.102,"end":6291.927,"text":"事實是不一樣啊 為什麼這兩個的參與性在哪裡不要 事實上還是有延續性啦主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定那同時加強有盟的合作我想台灣在這部分的政策立場都還是有它的延續性本身是強調蔡總統還可以在穩定中去選舉突破不然人家赤赤的啦 草莓人家幾天喔到幾天就白白跳"},{"start":6299.554,"end":6305.415,"text":"反省炒麵就用痛的感謝你不會我們的政策都是力求穩定喔謝謝接下來質詢的請王定宇委員好謝謝主席麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長"},{"start":6331.36,"end":6355.38,"text":"好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長 我在開始質詢之前我剛剛聽到兩個其實是來自中國謠言農場的謬論那也許因為台語你沒有辦法精準掌握第一個 台灣跟美日的同盟什麼時候去威脅中國過了對 沒有那是標準北京的說法台灣是被中國用軍事力量 外交力量 灰色力量威脅的國家"},{"start":6356.772,"end":6367.037,"text":"美國日本就是好鄰居或好朋友幫助我們叫做 deterrence 嚇阻那樣子的威脅怎麼說台美日合作去威脅中國這你當場沒有馬上"},{"start":6368.991,"end":6391.412,"text":"把它釐清清楚 我覺得對 我講很清楚啦就是說對於中國我們沒有挑釁的是維持一個穩健的政策我們從頭到尾沒有做錯事嘛我們接待國際友人我們做錯什麼事我們維持國家主權獨立讓2300萬人有自由的選擇權哪裡做錯了第二個 最近中國窯園農場在散播一個台灣付了200億美金什麼6000億軍事武器都沒有來這也是假的啊"},{"start":6392.213,"end":6419.515,"text":"我們軍事武器採購不是錢付在那裡等它來有點像蓋房子蓋到地基要付百分多少蓋到一樓要付百分多少要到那個節點才會付那樣的費用所以根本沒有200億美金的錢放在那裡而且很多的項目都已經依序開始交貨所以這個當然不是你的夜館但我覺得國防部跟國安單位對這樣子的謠言很有系統性的透過中國謠言農場"},{"start":6420.556,"end":6447.897,"text":"透過特定的媒體透過特定的協作者在散播所以連國會都聽到我覺得荒謬好 回到我要問的題目這個高市早苗這一次跟川普的見面對日本來講可以說是一個從他們民調就顯示出還有他們的股票市場看出來是一個正向的發展那本席比較著重的是以台灣為核心利益來看美日的議題"},{"start":6451.417,"end":6473.278,"text":"日本有三個它叫做Three Security Documents叫做安保三文件那安保三文件剛好高市早苗在宣布參選總裁選之前我剛好到他辦公室跟他聊了一個多小時他隔天就宣布要參選自民黨總裁他那時候也跟本席提到這三個安保文件"},{"start":6474.119,"end":6495.556,"text":"五年就要檢討一次那他們計畫在2026年就明年的開始先talk然後最後再進行修改那在安保三個文件裡面呢有一件事情在日方很多消息面有指出日本跟台灣在軍事產業也就軍備合作上"},{"start":6496.584,"end":6515.821,"text":"一直過去是坦白講我們不能說有也不能說沒有所以在這個三個安保文件裡面的修訂就國安局掌握的情資或相關的訊息有關台日美日台所謂的軍備合作的可能性會不會放在這三個文件裡面"},{"start":6516.818,"end":6532.433,"text":"對 它三個文件裡面當然有涉及到一些日本軍品出口管制相關的一個條文所以第一部分要看它的那個條文後續修改的因為它跟維新會結盟維新會在這方面的看法跟安倍跟高市的看法比較接近那過去"},{"start":6534.695,"end":6555.502,"text":"這個公民黨是比較中間偏左所以會因為他們叫做聯力就是他們簽約結盟所以會被那個所自走現在這個自走力量沒有了又穩定了多數所以就這一個部分國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息在日台的所謂的合作的項目裡面包含軍備的合作"},{"start":6556.284,"end":6584.361,"text":"第一部分是針對它的那個國安山文件的一個修改那對這問題怎麼處理因為日本是個法治國家他們會非常的重視要有條文法律的依據它才會變成是一個政策這大概是第一部分要說明的那第二部分是假如能夠有武器出口的話那它跟其他國家的合作可能還要經過一些評估是要針對哪些項目因為國防產業鏈的那個供應鏈它還是有一些基本的分工"},{"start":6584.801,"end":6600.335,"text":"那到時候可能還要再看日本在這方面的政策它有針對條文授權的哪些國家進行了解跟掌握各方面的討論好 這個是我覺得台灣在外交或國安方面對於尤其日本日本其實很照規矩它就是principle"},{"start":6601.036,"end":6623.434,"text":"然後呢在Document修訂完之後看有沒有落實到法律然後最後官僚體系才會動未必是政治人物就可以指揮的動他那個體系是很清楚所以安保三文件的修訂其實至關重要特別在軍事工業的合作方面對台灣來講是或者對區域穩定來講都是一個正向的發展方向另外"},{"start":6624.455,"end":6652.232,"text":"這一次高市他就任的時候就如同剛才局長有提到他就任特別把安倍所提的台日在安全議題上是息息相關轉成白話文就是有事大家都有事那他是一個安倍路線的強硬的遂行者所以他也提出了一個特別在川普這一次造訪那跟高市的態度坦白講與石破一比較那馬上看得出來看圖就知道了"},{"start":6653.112,"end":6668.602,"text":"那他提到了一個美歐日台的所謂的類似的安全的同盟那這一個準安全同盟美歐日台那國安局的評估跟你們掌握訊息是什麼"},{"start":6669.692,"end":6694.214,"text":"對 剛剛有其他委員在關切這個議題再次的跟委員做個說明這是高市的公開的一個宣示他也認為說要維護區域的現狀必須要理念相近的國家一起來採取具體的行動那才會包括美歐日台有一個準安全同盟這個準安全聯盟我們希望看到的現象是比方說各項的演習台灣過去並沒有辦法跟大家一起有合作的一個網絡變成個別或進階的"},{"start":6697.156,"end":6724.334,"text":"那這個安全網絡裡面包含了互相在安全議題上的進退同步嘛他有很多東西要討論所以就你們掌握訊息這一件事情目前他初步的想法到底是什麼對 他這只是一個政策的概念就理念相近國家要加強合作來維護區域的和平跟穩定那具體的做法還沒有提出來但基本上現在在談安全的概念是從一個比較綜合性安全的概念在討論"},{"start":6725.154,"end":6738.566,"text":"因為局長你是從外交體系來擔任國安局長我問一個比較簡單的問題高市所提到的美歐日台準安全同盟跟過去2018年當時的QUAD"},{"start":6742.216,"end":6763.597,"text":"會不會比較類似因為Quad也是從talk talk從開始談到最後慢慢強化逐漸把它level up所以就目前高市提出這個準安全同盟跟Quad類比起來你覺得差異大不大他只是還在一個政策概念之下要變成一個實際的政策可能還要有一個發展的過程那Quad因為已經"},{"start":6765.5,"end":6772.913,"text":"經過多年的一個運作不管在外交上 安保上都有Quad的相關因為Quad在2018年當時川普第一任是要把他"},{"start":6774.158,"end":6800.339,"text":"不要了啦然後呢幾乎也沒有再運作了是誰去海湖山莊呢跟川普說這個要弄的你應該也知道嘛安倍啊所以是安倍當時把QUAD從幾乎已經drop丟掉了又拿回來從對談強化到準安全同盟那所以我看到高視早描提到了這一個美歐日台有點像當年那個影子"},{"start":6801.279,"end":6825.26,"text":"我不曉得你個人就國安跟你外交體系背景怎麼看這個事沒有 尊重委員的一個觀察那我剛剛一直在說明的是這只是一個政策的概念那後續怎麼樣變成一個落實的政策委員剛剛有提到他可能還需要一些比較縝密的官僚相關部會的一個作業那到時候我們再來看後續發展的狀況是怎麼樣實際的狀況是怎麼樣好 最後一分鐘我今天沒有問完的我明天會繼續問"},{"start":6826.841,"end":6852.268,"text":"上一次我點出來我們相關被中共不管是公安統戰或他們的軍方點到了我們不管軍情局未來我相信也會有國安局軍情局或者我們新戰大隊或者是我們的資通電軍點名之後當然他法律不給予我們當然我們還有很多要跟有盟國家合作結果沒有想到就本席接到的兩個"},{"start":6854.423,"end":6874.871,"text":"我們相關機敏單位的人去兩家一家公營一家私營的銀行進行更名或者詢問貸款就被提到說你是高風險可能會準的機會不大當時我就是向你質詢的我現在是問你你們掌握到為什麼會發生這事情的原因了沒"},{"start":6875.803,"end":6887.74,"text":"有一些個別個人的因素不是個別我們有去了解原因是什麼有一些個別的因素因為其他相同身份我告訴你 局長不是個別因素資料庫"},{"start":6889.127,"end":6914.061,"text":"KYC所有的金融行戶受險他都要Know your customer叫做客戶查詢KYC結果我們台灣的銀行KYC還不到認真喔不到真信喔KYC都是委外買資料庫做輸入查詢結果你跟我講個別我很遺憾我認為你們沒有查你知道嗎"},{"start":6915.557,"end":6932.814,"text":"這個台銀土庫 易銀 張銀他們綁的就委外的資料庫叫做WorldCheckWorldCheck你進去一查我還找了銀行人員去輸入視察他們是跟中國的資料綁在一起"},{"start":6934.161,"end":6956.311,"text":"中國的資料喔 中國公安部 中國相關資料 中國媒體公布在裡面喔 一輸入之後它有分四類一個叫做國內外制裁名單第二類 金融監理機關列管名單第三類 現任或前任政治人物PEB我們都是現任或前任喔第四類 叫涉及負面新聞結果輸入work check"},{"start":6957.264,"end":6978.767,"text":"我們這幾個機敏資料的人就跑出來他屬於第四個 涉及負面新聞那你注意看像義營 華南 臺南 臺灣中小企業 兆豐金控他們去委外買的資料庫是道瓊的道瓊有一個欄位讓你勾你要不要跟中國的資料一併串你可以選擇不要那後面呢"},{"start":6979.864,"end":6992.457,"text":"有的應該會買兩個你像兆豐還買了LNRS FLES這個應該是LNRS Files然後另外還有張瑩還買了Patchit Officer"},{"start":6993.356,"end":7020.615,"text":"你們有沒有掌握這些資料庫裡面有沒有用中國國安部公安部統戰部相關資料在資料庫裡面你們有沒有掌握因為委員在關切這個問題啦那國防部事實上也有一個專案在處理那我們有透過那個專案去了解實際的狀況那有一些相關的因素我告訴你截至此時此刻銀行行員如果把某一些名字也許把你名字輸入也會或者這個什麼樣的名字輸入進去"},{"start":7021.943,"end":7039.365,"text":"在台銀的資料庫是會跑出來的會跑出警示跟委員說明一下國防部他有去了解那也有去透過其他的同仁去這個資料庫沒有問題這個資料庫裡面因為他把我告訴你台銀上面下令把他們移到白單了"},{"start":7040.779,"end":7058.964,"text":"才變沒問題了但你核心的資料庫沒有處理你現在只把這幾個名字移到白單一輸入跑出紅色然後看到旁邊白單他就自動沒問題你講的沒問題是這個我點破啦但如果這個資料庫用中國資料庫來審核我們台灣相關人員這個前提如果不處理還會賭到"},{"start":7060.489,"end":7087.387,"text":"你沒有從結構去處理問題我今天先問到這裡後續我明天再繼續問我知道委員開過很多協調會但是也可以了解一下政府去了解跟調查的結果那到時候大家再討論怎麼來處理好 謝謝局長好 謝謝接下來進行訊號委員 岳恩之委員"},{"start":7095.266,"end":7098.107,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局局長來 蔡局長好 葉委員長局長好因為明天川普跟習近平就要會面大家都很關心同時有很多媒體報導或國人也很擔心擔心特別是有一個詞叫做到底川習會會不會出賣台灣我覺得把這個事情講清楚大家就不至於擔心那我相信國安局也"},{"start":7123.915,"end":7140.035,"text":"應該也有很多套劇本有演練過很多不同的狀況我想問一下請問大家在講說會不會出賣台灣什麼何謂出賣台灣它有哪幾個程度的差別你們根據你們的分析我想這是新聞的用語那我們從政策的分析上來講"},{"start":7141.416,"end":7170.456,"text":"剛剛媒體朋友也有在會前提出一些問題我有做一些說明基本上看起來這次的川習會還是以經貿議題為主或許會帶到地緣政治因為川普他已經講了說台灣議題也是其中一個然後國務卿也對外公開說明說在會談當中不會去以台灣議題來換取中國的經貿優惠的措施政任部長也這樣講我現在要問的就是不會以放棄台灣或出賣台灣那定義到底是什麼"},{"start":7171.176,"end":7173.238,"text":"譬如說出賣台灣是說會直接講說反對台灣獨立還是說會在未來假設有戰爭的時候美國不會保護台灣還是說美國會減少賣防衛性武器給台灣 到底"},{"start":7188.272,"end":7209.417,"text":"國安局的評估所謂的出賣台灣的定義到底是什麼沒有 完全沒有出賣台灣是新聞的用語那你們的評估呢你們的評估可能會有哪幾種結果對 我們的政策面來了解是有可能會碰觸到台灣問題也有可能不會碰觸到台灣問題但假如碰觸到台灣問題的話美國官方的立場講得很清楚不會用台灣問題來換取中國相關的經貿優惠的措施"},{"start":7212.918,"end":7228.025,"text":"那不管是國務院或戰爭部都有類似的表述這樣講還是很抽象就是說不會用台灣問題那假設用台灣問題去換的話會是什麼狀況你總是要做一個各種評估嘛那如果會用台灣問題換的話是什麼狀況"},{"start":7230.265,"end":7258.46,"text":"我剛才跟媒體也做過說明了美中峰會他們討論的議題一定都有做過非常縝密的對啦 局長因為你這個都是很樂觀評估嘛以國安局狀況當然要料底從寬嘛你不可能說因為我覺得他不會我就不評估嘛我現在是問說你的評估因為大家會討論這個是個議題嘛然後會有好的狀況跟壞的狀況我們現在當然是希望是好的狀況可是如果是壞的狀況到底是什麼我就把這個東西講清楚大家就不至於擔心了嘛所以"},{"start":7259.841,"end":7280.092,"text":"所謂的出賣台灣或以台灣議題去換取經貿那台灣議題可以換到是怎麼樣犧牲台灣利益去換但美國的官方立場已經講到沒有這個議題不會用台灣議題來換取經貿已經沒有了沒有已經沒有這個所謂換取那個是盧比歐的講法但是川普有時候他那川普他也講說他非常尊重台灣"},{"start":7282.153,"end":7295.538,"text":"對 沒關係我當然也是希望是這樣結果啦但我覺得我們國安局都評估事情都很樂觀啦是用這種非常樂觀的態度去看待非常嚴肅的國安問題好 那第二個問題喔那個川普他見了黃仁勳嘛"},{"start":7297.319,"end":7319.955,"text":"之前黃文勳然後川普講說他會致力將關鍵晶片移到本土來製造因為我們都知道川普之前他曾經講過台灣都偷走了美國的晶片產業然後美國的商務部長也一直強調就是希望說晶片的生產可以五五產能一半一半就是任何一個晶片生產商他在國內的生產的量要跟他出口"},{"start":7320.836,"end":7348.986,"text":"海外客戶跟他進口的一半一半未來也會朝向這方向那我們就會擔心說那台灣的戲盾會不會因為這樣子就沒有了那我昨天看到卓文泰院長他講說不會 台灣不會有這些問題因為台灣在經濟 科技 區域和平穩定上面跟美國的共同利益都很大但問題是現在那假設之後我們的晶片就像川普建的黃仁勳所講的要希望把這些東西移過去的話那你們的評估是什麼"},{"start":7349.772,"end":7377.074,"text":"因為就那個經貿談判還是由行政院這邊在進行我知道 從國安的角度啦對 那委員剛所提到的關切事實上談判團隊也有對外做過說明第一個沒有所謂五五的這樣的提議在談判過程當中出現 第一個那第二個就算有的話我們政府也不會去接受這樣的立場所以我想談判團隊既然有這樣的說明我們就尊重他們的立場好 謝謝謝謝 葉元智委員請回 謝謝局長好 接下來詢答的委員是賴思寶委員"},{"start":7385.193,"end":7389.697,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安局的蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 那委員長你早 我先請教一下這個外面一直講而且這個經濟部長也某種程度也承認了我執行過他大概台美關稅20%加N的20加N的疊加"},{"start":7413.876,"end":7420.938,"text":"這個到現在為止一直是這個所以傳統產業非常辛苦啊你不要看股市每天創新高可是傳統產業苦哈哈的這個五星價的人越來越多那麼外界一直講說這個我們台美關稅要定案也就是說我們政府需要努力的20%降低不要疊加希望20%降到15%不要疊加這樣的一個想法跟做法那外界就一直認為"},{"start":7442.962,"end":7456.342,"text":"這個要等到川習會之後才他們定案了 我們才定案或者說中美貿易談判定案了以後台美關稅才會定案這個的消息你有沒有掌握"},{"start":7457.681,"end":7479.259,"text":"基本上因為國安局不是談判的團隊當然還是要以談判團隊對外說法為主我剛也是在用這種方式跟業委員做報告以我們的了解來講當然是希望在談判過程當中確保國家利益產業利益所以你沒有答案就對了你不能來確定另外就是以談到15%以下為主要的目標"},{"start":7480.8,"end":7487.363,"text":"所以你沒有掌握但是我掌握的就是這個樣子那現在來講就問那川喜什麼時候會APEC沒有談這個問題要等到明年初的農曆年他們才正式見面等於最壞的情況我們20加N要到那個時候才會改變的才有機會改變不過因為委員跟業界應該有很多接觸事實上在談判過程當中我們的團隊是一直有跟美方在討論"},{"start":7507.811,"end":7527.87,"text":"但是因為政治搞一切嘛好 第二個問題這個現在的新的日本的領導人就高市高市早苗他現在說要推動安倍的一致要修改日本的和平憲法這個你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":7528.71,"end":7532.212,"text":"對 他現在大概徐徐漸進的有沒有推動所謂的安保三文件在做調整那修憲的問題在整個總裁選舉以及他的內閣會議當中目前並不是一個議題現在主政黨跟那個維新他們就在推這個啊"},{"start":7549.168,"end":7571.542,"text":"這個來講 他們的國內也反對 國際也反對來又是軍國主義互庇喔這個台灣要有立場目前沒有在他們的政策議題上好 那他提到台灣有事 日本有事有沒有要出兵 有沒有這部分確實是在高市當選自民黨總裁的公開記者會他有提到台灣有事就是日本有事他有沒有講出兵"},{"start":7572.523,"end":7583.962,"text":"他主要的一個政策立場是在談那個態勢假如台灣發生怎麼樣的緊急事態的話會連動到日本的國家那請問你川普有沒有說過台灣有事美國有事"},{"start":7585.427,"end":7598.159,"text":"川普有沒有說過這個部分像委員講的主要是高市他在川普沒有說過這個話喔川普沒有說過這個話喔而且他現在越來態勢越來越明顯他不願意為國際的一個紛爭出兵喔這裡面好最後一點啦我想不過我報告一下因為我時間快到了我們主席對時間很嚴格自己可以拖很久別人不可以拖這個"},{"start":7611.091,"end":7634.564,"text":"來 我們看大陸對於所謂的台獨頑固分子他可以偵查 缺席審判 通緝更有人說這些人只要離開台灣就會被逮捕因為幾乎全世界都跟中國大陸有邦交跟我們有邦交就有十幾個國家其他都有所以只要一出國到他們有邦交都可以透過類似"},{"start":7635.965,"end":7646.381,"text":"美國透過加拿大為華為的事情去逮捕孟晚舟這樣的模式我就請問你這個事情這個事情"},{"start":7647.618,"end":7668.395,"text":"會不會發生對 剛剛林楚瑜委員也在關切那跟委員報告一下那基本上中共這種所謂的跨境脅迫它是沒有實際的意義的它是在做政策宣示那所以國內在討論的時候也不要落入它的這種法律戰心理戰跟輿論戰的架構之下而製造成一個心理恐慌的效果"},{"start":7669.416,"end":7683.193,"text":"也就是被他列為說他懲罰分子出國這樣出國不必擔心我剛剛也跟林委員在提醒說到了跟中共真的非常友好或是有司法互助的國家確實要小心我們要提高警覺中共跟美國有司法互助啊"},{"start":7684.094,"end":7707.722,"text":"那你去美國 基本上我們去美國沒有問題的啊不是啊 前提是在於親中的這種國家那比較全球南方國家那要注意有沒有哪些國家會配合到沒有 我要提醒是不管怎麼樣我們台灣人民 台灣人民代表要受到我們一定的保護我不知道我們國安局這裡有沒有具體的做法可以保護我們台灣所有的人民不要受到這樣的干擾"},{"start":7709.282,"end":7734.651,"text":"對 剛才跟其他委員在提到確實要注意到這種被威脅委員在國內境內的人身安全問題那會不會有在地協力者來侵犯他在國外的部分我剛才提醒在國內沒有問題 國外啦不要到了跟中共非常緊密友好政治關係緊密的國家那這種國家我們不建議全世界都跟老共有邦交民主理念國家還是最多數的謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7735.111,"end":7742.398,"text":"那明天好像 召委會 召會嘛好 謝謝 請回接下來進行詢答的委員 郭育晴委員好 謝謝主席 有請局長來 局長請"},{"start":7765.083,"end":7785.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席 郭文豪主長早安我想這個中國對台的施壓其實是不間斷的那最近更是越演越烈那中國官媒他之前也公佈了他們的這個衛星就是吉林一號那對台灣的不管是台北市區阿里山日月潭等等這個有非常清楚的一個"},{"start":7786.516,"end":7810.812,"text":"就是衛星的照片包含整個所有地面的一些細節我想他們的這個衛星看得很勤動作很勤也看得很密那幾乎隨時都可以取得這些影像那我想他已經把這個自家的這個衛星會不會有可能也是對於台灣的一些戰略的一個不管是縱橫這樣子的一個掌握那我想我們有沒有什麼樣的因應的一個方式"},{"start":7811.332,"end":7838.138,"text":"那我的問題是就是我們的情報蒐集跟驗證會不會跟不上他們對方的影像更新的一個速度我們要怎麼樣來減少這樣子的一個差距這是第一個問題那第二個問題是有沒有哪一些方法我們可以降低或者是我們來做這個對抗所謂的他們的高解析度的一個衛星所帶來的這些情搜的一些優勢那有沒有哪一些的技術或者是哪一些防防的措施我們是可以來做採取的"},{"start":7839.378,"end":7856.864,"text":"那第三個問題是這些影像透明化對於所謂的軍事的一個動機那跟他那個關鍵的設施的一個防護還有我們這個指揮的體系會不會造成哪一些具體的一個風險有沒有量化的一些評估我們有沒有在做這樣子的一個部分那進程又是什麼"},{"start":7857.424,"end":7871.669,"text":"那第四個就是國家地理的一個資訊的系統跟國土的這個測會的空間的資料庫如果將來是被害或者是呢有一些資料被滲透了那會不會也跟這些衛星相互有一些交互驗證之後加劇"},{"start":7873.529,"end":7898.363,"text":"資料外洩的一個問題 以上四個問題請教一下局長謝委員的提醒跟指教那第二部分是針對科技情報的蒐集那這是本局的主要的重點那事實上在過去兩年也針對我們局裡面的科技情報單位做了一個重新的組織改造那目的就是希望不管是在訊號情報或影像情報可以掌握得更精準那中共在蒐集我們的相關的偽造我們也在蒐集他們的而且我們的數量不會比他們少"},{"start":7898.683,"end":7924.563,"text":"那也是會針對中共相關的軍事動態軍事設施的部署那都會有完整的掌握來做分析這是第一個部分的報告那第二部分的報告是假如說它的衛照鎖定的是我們的重要的戰略或軍事的要塞的話那當然這一部分國防部他都有一些應處的作為包括怎麼樣來加強危險的措施讓它的衛照的拍攝清晰度不佳或是因為跟地形地物地貌的融入沒有辦法精準的來判斷相關設備的實際的狀況"},{"start":7927.085,"end":7944.69,"text":"那另外有一個蠻重要的做法是我們的相關的武器裝備也要更能夠機動化的來做調整跟部署那這樣子讓它的衛照永遠比較跟不上我們相關機動部署跟靈活運用的一個策略的一個運用這大概是另一個說明"},{"start":7945.53,"end":7966.54,"text":"那第三個部分是在整個委員擔心的未照再配合到相關資安的侵害中共也許可以做大數據的分析更掌握我們相關的一個狀況那這部分確實應該要來注意所以針對中共對我們的科技情報收集那可能的手法那以及我們怎麼樣來阻絕包括資安的部分怎麼樣來阻絕"},{"start":7967.62,"end":7996.067,"text":"那確實我們是列為一個重要的重點的工作那也有一些專案在處理但因為國安局主要的夜館會針對我們的情報11個機關來強化我們這方面的建制那後續怎麼樣把我們情報單位的做法再推廣到政府其他單位也能夠來注意到中共科技情報的運用不管是衛照電偵或是網駭來做大數據分析之後對我們國安的相關的情資掌握會更為細緻那這個部分我們再來加強"},{"start":7996.727,"end":8026.227,"text":"最後一個小問題就是說我們在這個所謂的反制的一個技術上面我們有沒有跟國際有一些配合那我們怎麼樣來合作然後讓國際來協助這樣子的一個管道有因為這個也是老師跟我們報告這是我們現在國際情報交流科技情報是主要的重點之一那衛照的部分除了傳統的光學衛星以外後續還有這種合成孔徑的衛星那這一部分都是比較新的技術那也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資進行科技情報交流的主要重點"},{"start":8026.767,"end":8044.776,"text":"好那最後就是剛剛回應一下這個我們賴志寶委員喔就是我們要加強這個委員的在外的人身的安全喔替沈博洋講一下話好這個我們要注意謝謝他謝謝他的關心啊好謝謝謝謝郭宇峻委員局長請回好接下來進行巡禮委員邱志威委員"},{"start":8055.314,"end":8071.455,"text":"謝謝主席有請局長蔡局長請謝謝主席 邱橫好對 局長你好 局長第一個問題請教你就是說這個中共四中全會剛落幕聽過第15次的五年經濟發展計畫"},{"start":8072.915,"end":8089.835,"text":"那這個有一些現象會讓人家覺得有點跟過去不一樣包括這個中央委員會出席的人數對這個特別是軍系軍方這個中央委員應該有三十幾席要出席就是出席二十幾席"},{"start":8091.016,"end":8109.044,"text":"那包括一些已經沒有在名單裡面的找不到原因的 未出席的大概還有二三十位還印出大概200多位吧如果沒記錯的話205位 那出席的是168位缺席的是37位所以有很多軍系的包括這些將領沒有出席"},{"start":8110.203,"end":8127.442,"text":"這透露什麼訊息習近平的大權還是牢牢在握呢還是岌岌可聞你們的判斷這一次有注意到中央委員的出席狀況就像跟委員報告的數字確實是比較低大概有18%的中央委員是沒有出席的"},{"start":8127.842,"end":8156.062,"text":"那代表有大規模的整肅跟調查的工作還在進行整肅是反貪嗎有 反貪跟忠誠的問題可能都有所以我們的解讀是認為他反映的是中國的貪腐還有忠誠問題可能蠻嚴重的他是在加大力道對 那也跟委員報告他這次中委員有遞補11位候補委員那11位候補委員那還沒有及時遞補啊有 這一次有遞補11位但是11位完全跳過了該遞補的軍方代表的名單那代表他對於軍方代表"},{"start":8156.943,"end":8164.486,"text":"所以現階段在整肅軍方貪腐的問題對 他在完成調查之前而且直接降臨的位階非常之高是啊當過這個軍委副書記對 或是軍區司令員軍區司令員"},{"start":8172.228,"end":8196.469,"text":"所以這種情況您覺得他習近平的大權還是牢牢在握對 我們剛剛跟陳俊宇委員在報告也是就是他現在幾乎是獨攬軍權啦然後對於一些將領的背景沒有那麼的信任所以除了剛剛說中央委員遞補名單沒有軍方代表以外中央軍委會也沒有遞補那過去委員可能也知道說現在還是軍權在握嘛對對 所以現在就世襲 對"},{"start":8199.713,"end":8227.852,"text":"所以這種情況透露出他的依然在權在握未來五年他的這個位置應該沒有問題因為在市中全會我每次在注意委員剛剛提醒的這件事他的一些公報的用語有沒有去提到接班或是續任的問題都沒有都沒有都沒有 對所以代表他大權在握科技的他怎麼自主在美中的科技角力戰裡面能夠維持他的獨立性跟自主性另外他國內消費不足的問題大概是提到這些部分沒錯他們是他們國內問題"},{"start":8229.953,"end":8247.243,"text":"那再把這個情況放到東亞東北亞經濟合作這個是一個命運共同體地緣政治 地緣經濟包括台灣 韓國跟日本這是一個區域的經濟安全合作的重要性"},{"start":8248.243,"end":8274.831,"text":"日本沒有問題台日關係最近是二三十年非常密切所以從安倍到高市首相我們提出他們都立場很清楚就是台灣有事 日本有事台灣沒事 日本沒事但我很期待我們另外一個台韓關係我們應該有更多的喉嚨我希望說在未來五年 十年我希望能夠從韓國這種聽到說這台灣有事 韓國有事"},{"start":8277.942,"end":8290.532,"text":"當然如果是美國說台灣有事 美國有事我想這個大概如果會講早就講了但是雙邊關係的互動是慢慢累積現在韓國反中的情緒非常強烈"},{"start":8291.903,"end":8315.515,"text":"對台灣是相當的友善他們124萬人來台灣觀光台灣有100萬全台灣觀光所以文化民間交流非常熱絡我們應該把握這個時間點強化跟韓國的關係局長您看法呢因為韓國以前都關注北韓的威脅對區域安全議題比較不表述他的立場但是這幾年也正如委員所看到的他慢慢的在調整"},{"start":8316.155,"end":8333.129,"text":"包括在美日的一些峰會或是部長級的會談都會 韓國會開始提到台海和平穩定的問題所以代表他的政策是有開始在做一些調整最後十秒鐘就是說上次您提醒我我不能去香港香港"},{"start":8334.29,"end":8356.716,"text":"甚至轉機也不行這個我都不能到香港但入境不可能 他不可能讓我入境轉機也有危險能不能有一些正面表列的國家你看他的第三國受到中國他們的國內的政治經濟受到中國強烈的控制強大的控制力的這些國家有沒有可能正面表列"},{"start":8358.945,"end":8382.94,"text":"對 但這個部分可能旅遊的風險的部分主要是外交部的夜館那但是這部分的風險主要是針對一些疫病或天災的那個指標來做調整那委員提到的是政治風險那這部分我們看是不是在內部會議再提醒外交部也來注意一下委員剛剛的關切謝謝邱志偉委員如果負面表列比較少就用負面表列就好了跟他友好會引渡的"},{"start":8385.202,"end":8408.721,"text":"對 那Interpol國際刑警組織那邊可能也是一個問題好 那謝謝國安局長 請回接下來進行詢問委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員不在鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":8411.465,"end":8428.437,"text":"以登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員 沈伯陽委員林益君委員 陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報那本期這邊也向我們委員會宣告"},{"start":8429.178,"end":8447.7,"text":"明天我們會甄列一個專案報明天是雙莊報除了外交部就這次APEC進行報告那在外交部長等於是國家的發言人代表我們外交立場如果明天如果有川習會的話那在會後我們會另外給時間讓"},{"start":8449.322,"end":8463.093,"text":"部長在我們外交委員會表達我們國家的立場跟看法第二個專報我們甄列一個有關中國對台灣進行長臂管轄以及威脅的樣態以及我們在法律及行政部門應當進行應處"},{"start":8465.014,"end":8493.895,"text":"這也是今天本委員會多位委員還有非本委員會委員都關心的議題那這是突發的議題所以本席根據我們立法院相關的規範這個緊急事態的話得臨時增加相關的專報所以明天我們會有兩個專報明天包含國安局法務部調查局陸委會我們都會要求再列席所以民政局長早上的話可能要再辛苦一下好 我們今天的"},{"start":8494.876,"end":8509.547,"text":"這一個委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請國安局已書面於兩週內答覆那另有約定期限者從期鎖定本次會議到此結束我們散會大家辛苦謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}