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謝謝主席首先有請我們副人事長昭偉好"},{"start":16.423,"end":21.949,"text":"是 副任司長好我想這個上個月卓榮泰他在電視專訪中然後大放釋出利多就卓榮泰他在電視專訪裡面他釋放了一個利多對工人來講是一個利多他說因為國家經濟體制比過去更好所以明年的軍公教條新是必然的"},{"start":38.007,"end":50.705,"text":"而且條幅一定是在3%到4%的這個基礎上來做思考我想請教副任市長就是你們現在已經有召開或是已經啟動了軍公教待遇審議委員會就這個議題有開始討論了嗎"},{"start":55.506,"end":73.354,"text":"跟委員報告我們前一段其實也跟委員會也有做過報告因為預算審查的時候大家也都有關心這個議題那我們過去一段時間就一直在收集相關的指標跟新的指標我現在是要問說已經啟動這個會議在開始討論了嗎已經有開會會了嗎這個禮拜一我們已經開始啟動跟軍公教團體的基層代表的這個座談我們跟教育部"},{"start":81.477,"end":85.558,"text":"所以你們的程序是怎麼樣?基本上是先跟軍公教團體座談,然後之後才開會嗎?對對,之後才會去開會所以你們的會還沒有開?對對對,我們會盡量趕,上次有跟委員報告說我們是上次有報告說6、7月嘛,然後因為會隨著總預算提出來所以我們會盡量來趕,因為軍公教的意見我們已經開過座談"},{"start":105.723,"end":124.982,"text":"我覺得很有趣的就是說其實你們根本還沒有開會嘛如果剛剛聽副任市長的意思現在還沒有還沒有開會但是我們行政院院長就已經對外定調了這個調整的幅度他不是說要調整3% 4%雖然說大部分的軍公教的人員都不滿意這樣的一個調整的幅度可是呢事實上"},{"start":128.085,"end":142.198,"text":"現在卓榮泰似乎就已經下了指導旗那你去問一下審議委員會到目前為止都還沒有開會他怎麼就可以下指導旗還是說反正不管你們現在做的也都是刑事然後之後一定會依照卓榮泰的意見大概就調個4%是這樣嗎"},{"start":144.616,"end":159.144,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的委員會運作過去都已經很制度化了對你們過去的制度化就是軍公交審議權只是建議權我們還是會提我們的意見沒有決定權我們還是會提我們的建議的方案所以我們會就是這個看起來院長講的應該是講說因為你們軍公交審議委員會到現在也還沒有開會"},{"start":176.594,"end":181.256,"text":"但是行政院長朱鎔泰已經對外都已經放話說至少要調5%至少要調5%至少要調5%至少要調6%"},{"start":194.687,"end":198.429,"text":"可是你們是有建議權喔最後還是在行政院院長他說了算這樣的一個制度合理嗎其實為什麼本席今天會提出軍公教待遇調整法這個軍公教待遇調整條例最重要的原因就是我們不希望未來整個軍公教的薪水的調整全部都是取決於一個人的手上"},{"start":217.722,"end":224.584,"text":"而且都是把他當成一個政治籌碼選前的時候才加薪如果沒有選舉的話是連動都不動就是本心感到根本報告其實不會啦就是我看院長那個專法應該是在對目前的這個經濟條件比較持樂觀的態度去看待並不是下什麼指導期啦因為我們還是會依照我們的程序去提案"},{"start":242.708,"end":265.787,"text":"會議都還沒有開啊 這就是我們在說的啊就是依照你們的軍工依照現在的全國軍工教育人工待遇自己要點裡面的規定就是必須要這審議會啟動啟動之後 討論之後然後提出一個建議發然後再給行政院那現在行政院院長自己就說了這個反正我們大概就調個百分之三 百分之四跟我們報告 院長的決定也是會根據一些專業的指標來做判斷就算是你們花了很多的時間去做座談"},{"start":271.312,"end":299.491,"text":"然後提出建議開會提建議最後也還是行政院院長說了算那麼事實上今天我們討論軍公教待遇調整條例的議題那是本席在第一會期的時候當時我就有要求人事行政總署必須要就軍公教調新機制法制化來進行研擬可是我這是第一會期提出的現在已經是第五會期了過了兩年了"},{"start":302.213,"end":311.525,"text":"我知道人事行政總署其實你們是有提法案的可是你們的法案基本上就是把軍公教待遇知己要點"},{"start":313.207,"end":336.619,"text":"幾乎全文沒什麼改然後就變只是後面要點變成一個條例換了一個名詞事實上就是換湯不換藥本期基本上有看過人事行政總署提的法案雖然說你們現在是送到行政院行政院還沒有正式的審議拍板要送到立法院可是坦白說我覺得人事行政總署真不用功"},{"start":339.74,"end":368.423,"text":"跟委員報告 真不用功耶你們裡面的人事行政總署這麼多的同仁結果竟然只是把這個要點然後修一個法案我跟委員報告 這個委員可能有點誤解我們這個法治化的規定會跟現在有很大的不一樣包括委員關心的那些大概什麼條件可能就一定要提動調新的機制等等就是現在年幼的部分其實都有你們之後還會有第二版就是了"},{"start":369.524,"end":381.763,"text":"我想這個院版送出來一定會更周延會比最早的這個會更周延好 做了兩年我們都還沒有辦法提出一個本席更周延的版本"},{"start":384.417,"end":398.326,"text":"我實在是很感慨現在行政院裡面不曉得押了多少法案一百五十幾個法案吧一百五十四個我最近好像還在看到一百五十四個法案都是各個機關所提出的法案行政院押在那裡不審就不審不動就不動我們立法院現在每個立法委員都很認真不斷地提出法案"},{"start":404.414,"end":424.983,"text":"那行政院是跟在後面跑甚至後來根本就懶得跑了反正你們立法委員自己去提案今天的軍公教待遇調整法案也是一樣的情況民眾黨提了我也提了我給你們兩年的時間到現在都沒有提出來所以我在這次人事行政總署的預算審查上面我給你們附了這個凍結條件對不對"},{"start":430.086,"end":437.551,"text":"是 你如果說你們不提出來 我跟你講你們的預算就卡在那邊就不要洞見 因為人事行政總署怠惰行政院也怠惰 這是個很嚴重的問題那更何況剛剛這個夫人市長你口口聲聲說你們的這個接下來的這個軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案呢會參考這個其他民主國家來做如果說你這麼說的話 我希望你能夠做到"},{"start":459.105,"end":475.757,"text":"因為我看到你們第一版的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那個基本上就換湯不換藥只是換了一個把要點變成一個條例的名詞在這邊我要建議我要提醒夫人市長你去看看日本怎麼做你去看看香港怎麼做在前幾天我看到一個新聞"},{"start":480.836,"end":503.741,"text":"香港呢他們基本上對公務員的加薪是在會前一定就是在提案之前他們會事前的與多個公務員的員工會面公會會面他們會跟多個公務員的公會的會面商討公務員的加薪幅度所以他們今年香港的公務員加薪是4.12%我再提日本 日本怎麼做"},{"start":509.246,"end":510.674,"text":"不知道富田市長知道日本怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":511.756,"end":539.057,"text":"主要是參考民間薪資的指數很好日本他們有一個單位叫人事院翻譯成叫人事院他們都會參考民間大企業的薪資來提出對於公務員合理的薪資待遇譬如說如果以法治人員來講他可能就會看大的律師事務所他們給律師的待遇是多少有資深的律師待遇會不同"},{"start":539.617,"end":557.549,"text":"如果说是科技方面领域的公务员他可能会看我们现在的几个大的科技产业台积电给多少薪水联发科给多少薪水台达电给多少薪水所以呢日本的人事院基本上是会参考大企业的薪资的相当水准"},{"start":558.849,"end":573.156,"text":"然後來提出一個合理的公務員的調薪的待遇而且更重要的是日本的人事院它是每一年都會對於公務員的薪資提出一份報告送到立法院來"},{"start":574.617,"end":603.609,"text":"送到他們的國會然後由國會來決定要不要給公務員調薪我認為這個才是一個合理的方向雖然說本席在這個待遇調整條例法案裡面我沒有做這麼大幅度的修正但是事實上我覺得日本的制度非常值得我們台灣學習所以我希望人事長你們如果接下來行政院的版本希望能夠參考日本跟香港的做法"},{"start":604.884,"end":620.733,"text":"要將不僅將薪資待遇法制化同時這個公務員要不要加薪的這件事情是不是應該要回歸到由國會來決定而不是由行政這個這個由執政者由行政院自己一手做決定"},{"start":623.467,"end":640.516,"text":"現在我們的機制最後也是要國會決定行政院核定以後其實就是要並總預算送到國會國會通過以後才有辦法去生效執行現在我們的制度也是要國會要通過也不是行政院說的就是最後的處理"},{"start":641.189,"end":664.911,"text":"好那基本上我想就是這兩個國家制度都值得我們的市行事總署行政院去參考那更重要是說本席在這次我提的法案裡面跟你們第一版的待遇調整條例草案最大的不同就是未來行政院必須要尊重審議委員會的決定而不應該任意的去變更"},{"start":665.992,"end":674.958,"text":"審議委員會 這個是否要調新的這個決定我們要回歸到專業化 制度化好 那接下來呢 我第二個問題呢 要請第二個問題就是說 事實上就是這個部分的話 可能請全審司的司長麻煩那個人事 麻煩副人事長 你還是一起回答好"},{"start":695.553,"end":713.415,"text":"我想這個其實公務員我剛其實在這個本席所提做的提案說明裡面都已經有講了依據憲法第83條還有憲法之修條文第6條的規定公務員的諷解事件其實明明就是考試院的專屬權限我不知道為什麼權序部"},{"start":714.516,"end":732.208,"text":"考試院全序部在這件事情上面這麼的消極向來就是認為說這個權反正行政院他要走了然後所有的公務人員軍公教的待遇就是由行政院去決定可是這明明基本上公務人員奉集法就是考試院的主管法規為什麼你們從來不參與"},{"start":735.905,"end":764.305,"text":"包委員先從那個就是說憲法所定考試院的執掌那憲法執法條例講的是公園的集縫的法制事項所以目前的公園縫集法跟加緊約辦法相關的縫集法制都是考試院主管然後也是全區部在管沒有問題那但是在執行的部分呢可能涉及到國家整個資源財政的分配的問題所以事實上的整個公園的縫他資給的數額就是用縫點"},{"start":765.646,"end":787.55,"text":"加上奉典的折合率來計算所以這部分就涉及到行政院的全責市長您這裡現在講得很好您也知道說集奉的這件事情是由考試院詮釋部要來主管我們的公文人員奉集法有多少年沒有修了對於我們的集奉 我們今天的奉集表有多少年沒有修了"},{"start":790.103,"end":817.342,"text":"報委員 縫表的組成它除了關等 直等 它也有縫級跟縫點好 我現在的關等 直等 縫級表等等這些現在你們現在談的都只是縫點的折算率折算額度現在看起來都是由行政院 人事行政總署這裡決定但是如果說我們從法制的架構來講法律本來就是賦予給考試院要做的可是你們自己現在放棄棄守公務人員的縫級權益法制的這個事權"},{"start":818.283,"end":841.921,"text":"然後全部都是讓行政院去一手遮攬 一手攬因為現在的人事制度是官職並立志這個制度它涉及就是整個人事制度結構性的一個根本那這個要調整呢 事實上沒有那麼容易所以在鳳姐的設計當初就保有那個待遇調整的彈性就採鳳點制的基礎指展已經幾十年了吧"},{"start":843.523,"end":856.578,"text":"幾十年還是五、六十年都沒有修正過我們always都是到十四值等然後呢 所謂的違建就是違任 建任、減任對不對 這個也從來沒有改過考試院難道都不應該要去"},{"start":861.784,"end":882.494,"text":"檢討 循序部從來沒有去思考過這樣的一個職等這樣的一個職等制度是不是合理因為它一定會連結到公務人員的薪水待遇的問題其實本期在這邊已經聽了非常非常多公務人員的抱怨譬如說委任職等或是譬如說以罰金等等來說他在怎麼樣努力他最多只能升兩個職等"},{"start":884.404,"end":901.356,"text":"這很不合理的事情 可是呢 全序部好像從來也沒有作為喔好 OK 那我希望就是全序部回去好好的 努力的去調整一下我們的公務人員諷刑法裡面至少我們的直等 關等這些制度是不是應該要重新做一個大幅度的檢討那我現在有許我再說幾分鐘"},{"start":902.757,"end":922.119,"text":"其實現在的關子病例是在76年1月16號施行到現在確實有50年不過部裡面在這個期間也是曾經多次在研議包括職等的架構的調整那這個部分都涉及到整個制度的變革它其實牽涉的範圍非常的廣泛"},{"start":923.661,"end":930.964,"text":"所以每次在40年了 所以你剛司長還講你們76年到現在我們現在116年了對不對40年了一個考試院連一個公務人員奉集法連職等官等都研究不出來難怪為什麼現在我們國家治理會這麼糟糕然後優秀的公務人員都不公教人員都不願意進來公務體系"},{"start":949.072,"end":968.612,"text":"來服務這是很大的問題所以考試院難辭其咎啦好不過謝謝市長你們這裡的回覆我希望考試院能夠盡速的去研擬相關的修法好嗎好麻煩就市長回去再拜本席的意見給學習部部長還有考試院指導好謝謝好那接下來那個請"},{"start":972.441,"end":998.348,"text":"請我們的人事長我想這個最後一個議題最後一個議題就是說你們現在這個軍公教人員調整諮詢會議裡面事實上剛剛林建琦委員有講看起來根本就是叫諮詢會而不是叫審議會而除此之外呢你現在的既然是叫做軍公教的待遇知己"},{"start":1000.262,"end":1009.126,"text":"軍公教待於自己要點可是呢你們在整個設計裡面在現在制度裡面是只有公教的代表竟然把現役軍人排除在外這是什麼原因"},{"start":1012.661,"end":1037.679,"text":"跟委員報告 軍人因為他的職務上的特殊性他是跟國安有點關係但是我們軍方這樣的條件都是聯動的啊 不都一致的所以我跟委員報告 我們軍人就是放國防部在裡面國防部就代表軍方的意見然後跟委員報告 我們過去的條件 軍人絕對是優先考量的項目"},{"start":1039.135,"end":1047.603,"text":"這個我想委員大概也非常了解本席希望之後你們的新版本裡面其他國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商裡面所有的相關涉及的機關都應該要有代表而且更重要的是要有員工的代表而不是都是由機關本身做代表它必須要有討論到各級的團體的代表"},{"start":1064.819,"end":1075.928,"text":"過去這個國防部也都非常盡責的幫軍人的這部分發言還有最後一個 還有就是跟人事長這邊一個問題就是說這次的加薪會調本縫嗎委員報告 剛剛其實我也有報告過我們的年度加薪都會整體的去考量"},{"start":1085.21,"end":1109.377,"text":"所以聽起來好像不會調本縫 而只是調家籍嘛沒有沒有 我們會整體去做建議我本心希望 再次的調新 還是要調本縫要調本縫才有意義啦調家籍的話 可能又會有選擇性那也不是說所有的人 全部都可以領到家籍所以我本心這邊 強烈的建議你回去告訴卓榮泰要調 有誠意就調本縫 不要去只是調家籍"},{"start":1110.037,"end":1137.939,"text":"好那最後一個問題就是有關於總原額的部分了那麼事實上就是我們中央政府機關總原額法從民國99年實行至今已經超過15年這個部分可能要請那個主計總處的檢認視察嚴視察好好一起一起來回答這個問題因為本期已經聽了非常多的機關抱怨為什麼現在公務員包含司法官檢察官然後袁錦霄等等大家的公務的"},{"start":1138.821,"end":1139.103,"text":"壓力這麼大"},{"start":1141.859,"end":1152.868,"text":"事情這麼多做不完基本上都是因為卡在我們的中央機關總原額法裡面非常僵化的規定這個是從民國99年當時在中央政府機關總原額法裡面當時就明定我們所有的公務人員的總原額上限是160900"},{"start":1169.401,"end":1176.023,"text":"可是從民國99年到現在是個15年我們已經這個政府機關組織已經多增加了非常多然後很多的各式各樣的這個全線任務全部都增加可是我們的人力的總數還是只停留在16萬900那裡面是分成五類啦那其中像司法院只有給他1500個名額法務部的檢察官也只是給他6900個名額袁錦霄全貨加起來24300人"},{"start":1198.826,"end":1212.764,"text":"所以其實從現代角度來看,這種原額法是應該要做修正了,要調整,要隨著我們的任務的變化,我們的職權的變化,機關組織的增加,要做一個適當的調整。"},{"start":1217.795,"end":1231.842,"text":"請問這個是屬於人事行政總署主管的法規還是跟委員報告這是人行總署主管的法規跟委員報告就是剛才委員提到幾個重點的機關譬如說司法院最近十年其實我們已經增加了三千個員額給他"},{"start":1233.423,"end":1247.798,"text":"其實在整個政府的緣額沒有大幅變動的狀況之下其實大部分的緣額的增加就是這一塊那剛剛委員提到的消防的部分消防大部分是在地方然後我們從107年到117年有一個10年的增額的計畫大概要增加到6000個人"},{"start":1258.055,"end":1265.858,"text":"消防人員要增加六千人那各地方政府消防署也很積極在這個協調各地方政府現在大概增加到五千多人您今天在怎麼樣增加在怎麼樣調整你都是在十六萬零九百人裡面自己去做調整你這個餅就這麼大你把這個原額數你給了袁錦霄那其他機關的人力就沒有辦法增加啊就像是您剛剛講的司法院司法院他的天花板就是一萬五千人"},{"start":1286.707,"end":1306.163,"text":"那明明現在就不夠然後因為就是法官人力不足然後呢就猛聘法官助理然後從本來應該是公務員職缺後來又變成是約聘僱人員職缺其實我們現在政府機關從99年當時在馬政府時代那時候講到說我們的政府要精簡可是事實上"},{"start":1307.023,"end":1329.914,"text":"並沒有精檢啊反而是人員越聘越多然後越聘過人員越聘越多我希望人事總署基本上要去做檢討好不好今天我這時間已經佔用太多了不好意思呢影響了下個委員的質詢那我希望人事總署也是盡快然後能夠在這個會期給本席一個報告或者是直接提修法然後要去修改中央政府金管總原額法可以嗎好 我們給委員一個報告好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:17:21.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:17:22.399000+08:00","text":"副人事長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:17:31.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:17:56.154000+08:00","text":"上個月卓榮泰在電視專訪中釋出了一個對公務人員的利多，他說因為國家經濟體質比過去更好，所以明年的軍公教調薪是必然的，而且調幅一定是在3%到4%的基礎上來做思考。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:17:56.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:03.705000+08:00","text":"我想請教副人事長，你們現在已經有召開或啟動軍公教員工待遇審議委員會就這個議題開始討論了嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:08.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:16.069000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們前一段時間其實也有跟委員會做過報告，因為在預算審查的時候，大家也都有關心這個議題。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:16.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:22.092000+08:00","text":"我們在過去一段時間有一直在蒐集相關的指標跟新的指標……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:22.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:23.252000+08:00","text":"我現在是要問是不是已經啟動這個會議然後開始討論了？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:23.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:23.692000+08:00","text":"已經有開過會了嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:23.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:26.334000+08:00","text":"在這個禮拜一我們已經開始啟動跟軍公教團體基層代表的座談，我們跟教育部禮拜一已經……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:34.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:34.917000+08:00","text":"所以你們的程序是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:34.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:35.917000+08:00","text":"我們現在正在整理他們的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:34.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:35.557000+08:00","text":"你們基本上是先跟軍公教團體座談，在之後才開會嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:35.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:35.757000+08:00","text":"對，之後才會去開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:35.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:36.097000+08:00","text":"所以你們的會還沒有開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:36.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:18:38.538000+08:00","text":"對，我們會儘量趕，上次也有跟委員報告在六、七月會隨著總預算提出來，我們會儘量趕，因為我們已經有開過座談聽了軍公教的意見，等整理完就開始來……","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:18:58.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:01.366000+08:00","text":"我覺得很有趣的就是其實你們根本還沒有開會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:02.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:03.828000+08:00","text":"聽剛剛副人事長講的意思，就是還沒有開會。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:03.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:04.469000+08:00","text":"現在還沒有開會。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:04.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:10.775000+08:00","text":"但是我們的行政院長就已經對外定調了調整的幅度，他不是說要調整3%到4%？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:10.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:28.472000+08:00","text":"雖然說大部分的軍公教人員都不滿意這樣的調整幅度，可是現在卓榮泰似乎就已經下了指導棋，那你們的軍公教員工待遇審議委員會到目前為止都還沒有開會，他怎麼就可以下指導棋？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:29.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:35.198000+08:00","text":"還是反正你們現在做的也都只是形式，之後一定會依照卓榮泰的意見，大概就是調4%，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:37.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:44.300000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們這個委員會的運作過去都已經很制度化了……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:45.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:47.962000+08:00","text":"對，你們過去的制度化就不是審議權而只是建議權。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:47.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:48.302000+08:00","text":"我們還是會提出我們的意見。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:48.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:48.642000+08:00","text":"沒有決定權嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:48.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:51.384000+08:00","text":"我們還是會提我們的建議方案，委員我們會……院長講的應該是……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:51.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:19:52.144000+08:00","text":"副人事長，我覺得你很為難，因為你們軍公教審議委員會到現在也還沒有開會嘛，對不對？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:19:52.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:09.594000+08:00","text":"對，還沒有開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:20:09.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:13.255000+08:00","text":"但是行政院院長卓榮泰都已經對外放話說至少要調3%或4%……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:20:13.255000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:14.255000+08:00","text":"院長應該是對現在的經濟狀況表示比較……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:20:13.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:28.608000+08:00","text":"副人事長，如果你們召開軍公教審議委員會，大家認為調4%不夠，至少要調個5%、6%，可是你們只有建議權，最後還是行政院院長他說了算，這樣的制度合理嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:20:28.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:53.823000+08:00","text":"為什麼本席今天會提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例，最重要的原因就是我們不希望未來軍公教薪水的調整，全部都是取決於一個人的手上，而且把它當成政治籌碼，選前的時候才加薪，如果沒有選舉的話連動都不動，這是本席感到……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:20:54.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:20:57.564000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實不會，我看院長那個專法應該是對目前的經濟條件持比較樂觀的態度去看待，並不是下什麼指導棋，因為我們還是會依照我們的程序去提案。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:15.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:17.710000+08:00","text":"他都已經對外講了，你們會議都還沒有開啊，這就是我們在說的啊！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:19.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:30.561000+08:00","text":"依照現在全國軍公教員工待遇支給要點裡面的規定，就是必須要審議會啟動、討論之後，提出一個建議方案再給行政院。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:31.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:34.264000+08:00","text":"現在行政院院長自己就說，反正大概就調個3%、4%。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:34.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:35.285000+08:00","text":"沒關係，副人事長，我想這部分你也沒有辦法決定……","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:35.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:37.607000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，院長的決定也是會根據一些專業的指標來做判斷。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:37.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:21:48.915000+08:00","text":"就算是你們花了很多時間去辦座談、開會提建議，最後也還是行政院院長說了算。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:21:49.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:22:36.412000+08:00","text":"事實上，今天我們討論軍公教人員待遇調整條例這個議題，當本席在第1會期的時候，我就有要求人事行政總處必須要就軍公教調薪機制法制化進行研擬，我這是第1會期提出的，現在已經是第5會期，過了2年了，我知道人事行政總處你們是有提法案的，可是你們的法案基本上全文幾乎沒什麼改，只是把軍公教待遇支給要點變成一個條例、換了一個名詞，事實上就是換湯不換藥。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:22:36.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:22:49.599000+08:00","text":"本席有看過人事行政總處提的法案，雖然說你們現在是送到行政院，行政院還沒有正式的審議拍板要送到立法院，可是坦白說，我覺得人事行政總處真不用功！","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:22:55.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:02.108000+08:00","text":"你們人事行政總處這麼多同仁，結果竟然只是把這個要點修一個法律案名稱……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:02.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:19.441000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，委員可能有點誤解，這個法制化的規定會跟現在有很大不一樣，包括委員關心的那些，當什麼條件可能就一定要提供調薪的機制等等，其實都有包含那些現在沒有的部分。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:19.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:21.403000+08:00","text":"所以我之前看的是第一版，你們之後還會有第二版就是了？是嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:22.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:28.193000+08:00","text":"我想院版送出來一定會更周延，會比最早的版本更周延。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:29.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:29.615000+08:00","text":"拖了2年……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:29.615000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:30.615000+08:00","text":"委員要對我們有信心啦！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:30.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:23:42.120000+08:00","text":"你們都還沒有辦法提出一個比本席更周延的版本，我實在是很感慨，現在行政院裡面不曉得壓了多少法案，一百五十幾個法案吧！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:23:43.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:24:02.496000+08:00","text":"154個，我昨天好像才看到，154個法案都是各個機關所提出的法案，行政院壓在那裡不審就不審、不動就不動，現在立法院每個立法委員都很認真不斷地提出法案，行政院是跟在後面跑，甚至後來根本就懶得跑了，反正你們立法委員自己去提案。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:24:03.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:24:28.430000+08:00","text":"今天的軍公教人員待遇調整條例也是一樣的情況，民眾黨提了、我也提了，我給你們2年的時間，到現在都沒有提出來，所以在這次人事行政總處的預算審查上面，我給你們附了凍結條件，如果你們不提出來，我跟你講，你們的預算就卡在那邊、就不要解凍，因為人事行政總處怠惰、行政院也怠惰，這是個很嚴重的問題。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:24:28.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:25:01.672000+08:00","text":"更何況剛剛副人事長，你口口聲聲說接下來軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案會參考其他民主國家來做，如果你這麼說，我希望你能夠做到，因為我看到你們第一版的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，基本上換湯不換藥，只是把要點變成一個條例的名詞。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:25:01.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:25:36.721000+08:00","text":"在這邊我要提醒副人事長，你去看看日本怎麼做、你去看看香港怎麼做，前幾天我看到一個新聞，香港對公務員加薪在提案之前，他們會事前與多個公務員工會會面，商討公務員的加薪幅度，所以今年香港公務員加薪4.12%；我再提日本，日本怎麼做？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:25:42.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:25:43.674000+08:00","text":"副人事長知道日本怎麼做嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:25:44.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:25:48.159000+08:00","text":"主要是參考民間的薪資指數。很好！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:25:48.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:26:23.485000+08:00","text":"日本他們有一個單位叫人事院，他們都會參考民間大企業的薪資提出對於公務員合理的薪資待遇，譬如說，以法制人員來講，他可能就會看大律師事務所他們給律師的待遇是多少，資淺、資深的律師待遇會不同；如果說是科技領域的公務員，他可能會看現在幾個大的科技產業，台積電給多少薪水、聯發科給多少薪水、台達電給多少薪水？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:26:24.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:26:35.211000+08:00","text":"所以，日本的人事院基本上是會參考相當大企業的薪資水準，來提出一個合理的公務員調薪待遇。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:26:36.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:26:55.260000+08:00","text":"而且更重要的是，日本人事院每一年都會對公務員的薪資提出一份報告，送到他們的國會，由國會來決定要不要給公務員調薪，我認為這個才是一個合理的方向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:26:56.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:27:09.446000+08:00","text":"雖然說本席在待遇調整條例法案裡面，我沒有做這麼大幅度的修正，但是事實上，我覺得日本的制度非常值得我們臺灣學習。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:27:09.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:27:26.569000+08:00","text":"所以人事長，我希望接下來行政院的版本能夠參考日本跟香港的做法，不僅將薪資待遇法制化，同時，公務員要不要加薪的這件事情，是不是應該要回歸到由國會來決定？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:27:27.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:27:33.713000+08:00","text":"而不是由執政者、由行政院自己一手做決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:27:36.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:27:46.672000+08:00","text":"現在我們的機制最後也是要國會決定，行政院核定以後，其實就是要併總預算送到國會，國會通過以後才有辦法生效執行。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:27:47.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:27:53.496000+08:00","text":"現在我們的制度也是要國會通過，也不是行政院說了就是最後的處理。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:27:54.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:28:24.395000+08:00","text":"基本上，我想這兩個國家制度，都值得我們人事行政總處、行政院去參考，更重要的是，這次本席提的法案裡面，跟你們第一版的待遇調整條例草案最大的不同，就是未來行政院必須要尊重審議委員會的決定，而不應該任意地去變更審議委員會是否要調薪的決定，我們要回歸到專業化、制度化。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:28:25.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:28:27.757000+08:00","text":"接下來，第二個問題要請教銓審司司長，麻煩副人事長還是一起回答。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:28:52.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:29:20.084000+08:00","text":"剛剛在本席所做的提案說明裡面都已經有講了，依據憲法第八十三條，還有憲法增修條文第六條規定，公務員的俸給事項明明就是考試院的專屬權限，我不知道為什麼考試院銓敘部在這件事情上面這麼消極，向來認為反正這個權被行政院要走了，然後所有的公務人員、軍公教的待遇就是由行政院去決定。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:29:20.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:29:25.208000+08:00","text":"可是明明公務人員俸給法就是考試院的主管法規，為什麼你們從來不參與？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:29:29.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:29:46.217000+08:00","text":"報告委員，先從憲法所定考試院的職掌來看，憲法增修條文講的是公務員級俸的法制事項，所以目前公務人員俸給法跟加給辦法相關的俸給法制都是考試院主管，也是銓敘部在管，沒有問題。","quality":0.718},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:29:46.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:02.711000+08:00","text":"但是在執行的部分，可能涉及到國家整個資源財政分配的問題，所以事實上，整個公務員的「俸」支給的數額就是用俸點加上俸點的折合率來計算，所以這部分就涉及到行政院的權責。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:04.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:15.144000+08:00","text":"好，司長，您講得很好，你也知道級俸這件事情是由考試院銓敘部主管，我們的公務人員俸給法有多少年沒有修了？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:16.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:20.530000+08:00","text":"我們的俸額表有多少年沒有修了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:23.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:26.765000+08:00","text":"報告委員，俸表的組成除了官等、職等，還有俸級跟俸點，所以……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:27.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:37.293000+08:00","text":"目前的官等、職等、俸級表等等這些，你們現在談的都只是俸點的折算率，折算額度現在看起來都是由行政院人事行政總處決定。是。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:37.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:30:55.566000+08:00","text":"但是如果我們從法制的架構來講，這本來就是法律賦予給考試院要做的事情，可是你們自己現在放棄、棄守公務人員俸給權益法制的事權，全部都是讓行政院去一手攬……","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:30:56.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:12.900000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們並沒有棄守、沒有放棄，因為現在的人事制度是官職併立制，這個制度涉及整個人事制度結構性的根本，這個要調整，事實上沒有那麼容易，所以在俸給的設計，當初就保有待遇調整的彈性，採俸點制……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:13.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:14.901000+08:00","text":"職等已經幾十年了吧？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:17.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:20.007000+08:00","text":"可能是五、六十年都沒有修正過。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:20.007000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:21.007000+08:00","text":"官職併立制在……委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:20.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:34.784000+08:00","text":"我們always、都是到14職等，委任、薦任、簡任也從來沒有改過，考試院難道不應該要檢討？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:35.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:31:44.629000+08:00","text":"銓敘部從來沒有去思考過這樣的職等制度是不是合理，因為它一定會連結到公務人員薪水待遇的問題。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:31:44.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:00.366000+08:00","text":"其實本席在這邊已經聽了非常非常多公務人員的抱怨，譬如說委任職等或是以法警來說，他再怎麼樣努力，他最多只能升2個職等，這是很不合理的事情，可是銓敘部好像從來也沒有作為。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:01.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:13.295000+08:00","text":"我希望銓敘部回去好好努力調整一下我們的公務人員俸給法，至少我們的職等、官等這些制度是不是應該要重新做大幅度的檢討？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:13.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:14.356000+08:00","text":"委員容許我再補說幾分鐘。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:14.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:15.757000+08:00","text":"說1分鐘就好了，因為我還有其他問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:15.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:37.061000+08:00","text":"其實現在的官職併立制是在76年1月16號施行，到現在確實有50年，不過部在這段期間也曾經多次研議，包括職等架構的調整，這個部分都涉及到整個制度的變革，其實牽涉的範圍非常廣泛，所以每次在……","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:37.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:39.462000+08:00","text":"40年了，剛剛司長講，從76年到現在，現在是116年，對不對？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"彭司長國華","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:39.462000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:32:40.462000+08:00","text":"但期間部裡面……40年了！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:32:39.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:05.235000+08:00","text":"考試院連公務人員俸給法、職等、官等都研究不出來，難怪現在我們國家治理會這麼糟糕，優秀的公教人員都不願意進來公務體系服務，這是很大的問題，考試院難辭其咎。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:05.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:14.064000+08:00","text":"不過謝謝司長的回復，我希望考試院能夠儘速去研擬相關的修法好嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:14.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:21.072000+08:00","text":"麻煩司長回去再把本席的意見給銓敘部部長還有考試院知道。好。謝謝。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:21.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:27.382000+08:00","text":"接下來請副人事長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:27.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:30.102000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:30.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:33:44.386000+08:00","text":"最後一個議題，你們現在軍公教人員調整諮詢會議，剛剛林倩綺委員有講，看起來根本就是叫諮詢會，而不是叫審議會。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:33:44.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:02.106000+08:00","text":"除此之外，現在既然叫做軍公教待遇支給要點，可是現在整個制度設計裡面只有公教的代表，竟然把現役軍人排除在外，這是什麼原因？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:05.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:12.886000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，軍人因為職務上的特殊性，他跟國安有一點關係。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:13.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:14.827000+08:00","text":"可是我們的軍公教調薪都是連動的啊！","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:15.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:16.168000+08:00","text":"不是都一致的？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:16.168000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:17.168000+08:00","text":"為什麼你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:17.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:34.317000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，所以軍人就是放國防部在裡面，國防部就代表軍方的意見，我們過去的調薪，軍人絕對是優先考量的項目，我想委員大概也非常了解。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:34.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:37.080000+08:00","text":"本席希望之後你們的新版本裡面，軍公教所有的……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:37.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:37.741000+08:00","text":"其他國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:37.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:38.241000+08:00","text":"相關涉及的機關都應該要有代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:38.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:39.241000+08:00","text":"一定會有代表。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:38.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:34:40.583000+08:00","text":"更重要的是要有員工的代表，而不是都是由機關本身做代表，必須要有各級團體的代表參與討論。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:34:57.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:01.442000+08:00","text":"過去國防部也都非常盡責幫軍人的部分發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:01.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:04.724000+08:00","text":"最後還有一個問題要請教人事長，這次的加薪會調本俸嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:04.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:08.908000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛其實我也有報告過，我們的年度加薪都會整體去考量。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:18.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:20.311000+08:00","text":"所以聽起來好像不會調本俸，而只是調加給，是不是？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:21.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:23.632000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，我們會整體去做建議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:23.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:28.313000+08:00","text":"好，本席希望這次的調薪還是要調本俸，要調本俸才有意義啦！","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:28.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:35:42.077000+08:00","text":"調加給的話可能又會有選擇性，也不是所有的人全部都可以領到加給，所以本席強烈建議，你回去告訴卓榮泰，要調薪若有誠意就調本俸，不要只是調加給。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:35:43.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:36:00.511000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題關於總員額的部分，事實上，中央政府機關總員額法從民國99年施行至今已經超過15年，這部分可能要請主計總處嚴簡任視察一起來回答這個問題。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:36:00.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:37:25.744000+08:00","text":"因為本席已經聽到非常多機關抱怨，為什麼現在公務員包含司法官、檢察官、員警消等等公務的壓力這麼大，事情這麼多、做不完，基本上都是因為卡在我們的中央機關總員額法裡面非常僵化的規定，這是從民國99年當時在中央政府機關總員額法裡面就明定所有的公務人員總員額上限是16萬900人，可是從民國99年到現在，事隔15年，政府機關組織已經增加了非常多，很多各式各樣的權限、任務全部都增加，可是我們人力的總數還是只停留在16萬900人，裡面是分成5類，其中像司法院只有給它1,500個名額，法務部的檢察官也只給6,900個名額，員警消全國加起來2萬4,300人，從現在角度來看，總員額法應該要做修正、要調整，要隨著任務的變化、職權的變化、機關組織增加要做適當的調整。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:37:30.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:37:36.958000+08:00","text":"請問這是屬於人事行政總處主管的法規還是誰主管的法規？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:37:36.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:37:53.651000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這是人事行政總處主管的法規，剛才委員提到幾個重點的機關，譬如說司法院最近10年其實我們已經增加了3,000個員額給它，這是在整個政府的員額沒有大幅變動的狀況之下，其實大部分的員額增加就是這一塊。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:37:54.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:38:14.056000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到消防的部分，因為消防大部分是在地方，我們從107年到117年有一個10年增額的計畫，消防人員大概要增加到6,000個人，消防署也很積極在協調各地方政府配合。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:38:14.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:38:15.056000+08:00","text":"副人事長，我想您……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:38:14.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:38:15.136000+08:00","text":"現在大概增加到五千多人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:38:15.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:38:51.016000+08:00","text":"您基本上沒有聽懂我的意思，今天再怎麼樣增加、再怎麼樣調整，都是在16萬900人裡面自己去做調整，這個餅就這麼大，你把員額數給了員警消，其他機關的人力就沒有辦法增加，就像是您剛剛講的司法院，司法院的天花板就是1萬5,000人，明明現在就不夠，因為法官人力不足就猛聘法官助理，本來應該是公務員職缺，後來又變成約聘僱人員職缺。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:38:51.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:08.667000+08:00","text":"我們政府機關從99年當時在馬政府時代，那時候講到我們的政府要精簡，可是事實上並沒有精簡，反而是人員越聘越多，約聘僱人員越聘越多，我希望人事總處要去檢討，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:08.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.414000+08:00","text":"今天我時間已經占用太多了，不好意思，影響了下位委員的質詢，我希望人事總處儘快能夠在這個會期給本席一份報告，或者是直接提修法，修改中央政府機關總員額法，可以嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:23.414000+08:00","text":"1個月之內給我一份報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.874000+08:00","text":"好，我們給委員一份報告。謝謝。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:22.914000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:23.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:25.414000+08:00","text":"謝謝我們翁召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:25.714000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:28.285429+08:00","text":"請下一位張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:28.585429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:30.014000+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）","start":"2026-06-10T10:39:30.314000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T10:39:33.456857+08:00","text":"接下來請張雅琳委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}