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謝謝"},{"start":168.988,"end":197.647,"text":"然後另外就是在請教您就是說我們今天審議的是軍公教人員待遇調整的這個條例的一個修法那我想我們這個也有提出這個相關的版本那尤其是針對這個部分我想請教一下就是人事總書的報告是說已經有把這個軍公教的這個待遇的那個待遇調整的條例草案已經有送交了行政院了是嗎"},{"start":199.088,"end":209.7,"text":"歐元寺什麼時候送膠的我們是113年12月送的113年12月就送了那為什麼現在院會還沒有拍審呢"},{"start":210.68,"end":229.766,"text":"因為行政院要處理的案子當然很多啦那這件事情相對不重要就對了也不是 我們也一直在立法院裡面其實草野的委員都很關心這件事情然後我們也一直有跟行政院在討論這件事那我想我們會盡快把這個案子送過來"},{"start":233.048,"end":259.246,"text":"盡快送過來已經從113年12月到現在囉這已經不是盡快了尤其是現在這種AI時代喔這已經是落後非常久了那表示說所以是行政院認為這不重要所以不把它排入院會這個案子就是很重要可以評估的比較省慎那我們最近也有媒體在反映你們應該是在送草案之前就已經評估非常久了嘛找了非常多的團體一起大家共同來研議嘛"},{"start":261.915,"end":269.161,"text":"收集相關的各國的制度所以都已經送行政院那麼久了我們會很快把這個案子送過來我們盡快行政院現在院會都還沒排進去吧"},{"start":281.573,"end":298.849,"text":"我覺得我們人事總署要積極一點啦既然草野都有這個共識人事總署也都已經提出版本應該要把這個我們的這個軍公教人員待遇能夠法制化我想這是大家共同的想法那所以說人事總署這邊應該是要積極的來去處理好嗎"},{"start":302.15,"end":321.465,"text":"好 那另外就想請教你除了這個要法制化之外呢我們也覺得說我們現在的這個薪資的待遇調整應該是要決策公開透明化所以呢我們認為就是過去因為都是行政院在密室協商就行政院自己決定要加薪或不加薪"},{"start":322.305,"end":342.552,"text":"那現在呢 我們有提出的版本裡面有強制規定待遇審議委員會必須要納入現職的軍公教的代表那請問一下 目前你們送立法院的版本裡面呢有沒有提到這個部分各位報告 目前我們送行政院代表有公教的代表"},{"start":343.188,"end":362.914,"text":"有公教代表 那軍人的部分是 軍人的部分其實我早上有做過說明 因為軍人他是基於他工作的特性 國安的考量一般國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商的範圍 但是我們我們其實是有國防部 請國防部來代表軍人那但是問題是 你現在公教的代表的比例是幾位四位那你的成員是幾位"},{"start":373.991,"end":381.601,"text":"成員目前是規劃21位好 21位然後公交代表就4位因為還有地方機關還有學者專家對啊 那等於說真正的基層代表代表公交人員的才4位也就是有五分之一那這樣的話他們的意見"},{"start":391.693,"end":410.709,"text":"跟他們所要表達的要求其實在整個審議委員會裡面可能根本完全起不了什麼作用啊就變成說你們只是安排有公教基層的公教在裡面可是事實上完全沒有辦法影響而這攸關他們最重要的權益他們才是當事人"},{"start":411.61,"end":424.736,"text":"那所以這個部分呢我覺得應該是這個比例的部分應該是要調整那因為其實翁小林委員的版本裡面就有特別提到了就是軍公教各三位嘛至少九位那大概比例就是三分之一"},{"start":426.223,"end":452.587,"text":"那針對這個部分是不是可能調整到三分之一呢這個院版送過來以後我想這個草野的委員應該會很有智慧的副院長您自己您覺得呢站在你的立場其實我們現在很多的相關的審議委員會幾乎都是把這個基層的代表大概都有三分之一就像之前我們說海保法後來也把我們的漁民代表"},{"start":454.068,"end":474.246,"text":"這個大概占了三分之一左右我想這是最基本的委員報告就是早上其實也有其他委員有在詢問這個問題因為這個待遇調整現在就是各國的制度上面因為都是這個當事的團體就是他有建議或者是表達意見的這個機會"},{"start":477.088,"end":499.769,"text":"那最後應該是涉及整個國家的資源的分配這個當然我們知道但是就是三分之一我現在也不是說過半就三分之一來去表達他們的意見這應該不為過吧那針對這個部分的話我原意見我們再拿回去參考好然後另外就還有也希望說你們能夠尊重審議的結果因為現在看起來大家都是行政院決定那既然你有一個審議委員會應該要尊重委員會的一個權益是嗎"},{"start":505.943,"end":523.136,"text":"委員報告大家都擔心說是不是這個一人決策啦其實這個案子都不會是一人決策因為整個自助的規劃都會有相關的指標那請問一下如果未來這個審議委員會做成待遇調整的建議啊那行政院是不是會尊重"},{"start":526.206,"end":544.112,"text":"我們以現行的運作來講按照過去大部分的時間都是會尊重的就是會尊重那如果說行政院假設啦不同意的話有沒有什麼具體的條件還是說有什麼理由會再重新那個召開審議會還是沒有就是照行政院說的算目前現有的制度化機制是沒有"},{"start":549.975,"end":575.225,"text":"對啊 那就是我剛剛講的這個問題嘛我們還是希望要尊重審議的結果既然你開了一個審議委員會給行政院那行政院就應該要尊重 否則就不用開這個審議委員會啦因為那代表的是 你剛剛講的嘛21位代表的是各界的不管是專家 學者 基層代表 公務公家機關都已經有這樣子的一個建議了啦所以是不是應該是要尊重審議的結果?報告就是現行運作的狀況"},{"start":576.945,"end":605.905,"text":"行政院都是尊重委員會的建議所以會尊重審議的結果然後最後就是我想請教一下就是說我們現在這個有提出的版本就是希望是明定消費者物價指數CPI累積成長達3%的時候或者是每四年要定期調整然後條幅也不得低於通膨率的二分之一那請問你們現在送行政院的版本裡面目前的這個朝向的這個調整的方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":607.025,"end":632.136,"text":"我跟委員報告 行政院還沒有送過來的最後定稿但是我們人總署的我剛剛一開始報告的時候其實有講這個部分我們都往那邊去調聞去做考量所以你是說CPI達到3%然後每四年要定期檢討也有對年輕人我們可能還更我們都有規劃"},{"start":632.836,"end":636.798,"text":"你們都有規劃那條幅不得低於通膨率的二分之一這個也都有規劃因為我剛剛有報告其實就是這是一個專業的委員會的評估然後也有相關明確的指標在進行那因為總的國家資源的負責分配還是這個主政者還是要去負最後的責任"},{"start":659.392,"end":668.637,"text":"所以這個部分我希望說這個盡快的也希望人事總署能夠要求就是請行政院因為立法院現在已經今天我們現在已經這個特別針對這個部分有排審了那也希望說行政院趕快把院板送進來我們在審查的過程中才能把院板納入否則的話我們這樣審一審院板要來不及進來的話我們可能就沒有辦法"},{"start":680.743,"end":683.485,"text":"我們也希望病神我們希望願本病神希望能夠盡快最後再請教一個問題就是說針對職場霸凌的部分從109年的12件大幅增加到114年的132件5年成長了10倍這5年間成長了10倍究竟是公務機關霸凌的問題越來越嚴重還是人事總署過去的預防機制根本沒有發揮作用人事總署你們要怎麼解讀這個現象"},{"start":711.738,"end":739.445,"text":"委員報告這問題當然大家都很重視那在去年那個保障法修法之前就是我們整個國家法制對不管是職場霸凌的定義都沒有一個作用法的明確的規範然後主管機關到底是誰都還沒有明確所以在那個過渡期其實人總處是有"},{"start":741.045,"end":767.795,"text":"這個努力的先做一個指引讓各機關可以執行然後在去年大家努力的去推展這一塊資產霸凌的房子也修了保障法也修了安慰辦法那安慰辦法是去年7月1號就實施然後保障法是今年1月9號監察院有調查就是多起的霸凌案件發現部分的人事單位不但沒有協助被害人甚至出現勸退的情形要求當事人自行檢討"},{"start":769.655,"end":787.089,"text":"請問這是怎麼一回事我覺得這個可能有點太簡化了我覺得大多數的人事同仁其實都很兢兢業業在處理如果委員有聽到地方基層的聲音應該也知道我們人事同仁處理這個領域的工作其實也是盡情盡力在做"},{"start":788.991,"end":811.224,"text":"越多所以我們還是希望就是就是除了你們這個事後調查懲處之外我們還是希望要建立一個預警的一個機制然後主動的介入制度然後就像你剛講的我們可能有一些預警的然後一些什麼宣導未來我覺得會更好因為這個今年這個已經制度已經完備化了那主管機關也確定是保訓位然後現在"},{"start":812.445,"end":838.343,"text":"處理的方式就是在調查小組其實要有二分之一的外聘委員就是外部介入的力量已經變大了然後安慰委員會也要至少三分之一外聘委員那像調查小組如果他是機關首長他沒有上級的部分其實外聘委員是要達到三分之二然後另外保訓會他也可以做外部的抽查"},{"start":839.184,"end":847.213,"text":"希望這個部分要確實的落實讓我們這些公務人員不要再受到這種霸凌之苦這個我們會努力去跟保訓會協作好 謝謝謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:23.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.155000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們請張副人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.476000+08:00","text":"請副人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.496000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.636000+08:00","text":"副人事長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:24.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:20:58.604000+08:00","text":"我首先要來追蹤一件事情，在今年3月25日的時候我有質詢人事長，因為去年的經濟成長率已經達到8.68%，所以照理說今年應該是要幫公務人員加薪，大家一起共享這個經濟成長的果實。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:20:59.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:21:10.191000+08:00","text":"當時人事長也有跟我講說他預備4月要跟卓榮泰院長報告，爭取另一次加薪的機會，是今年度，不是指明年。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:21:12.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:21:24.715000+08:00","text":"之後我也有再質詢過、也有請教過副人事長，你當時是跟我講說6、7月會研擬相關的方案，因為現在已經進入到6月，我想問一下這個進度是怎樣？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:21:27.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:21:32.694000+08:00","text":"上次有跟委員報告說6、7月我們會把方案提出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:21:32.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:21:33.694000+08:00","text":"對，那方案提出來了嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:21:33.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.053000+08:00","text":"現在的進度是這個禮拜一，6月8日我們和教育部有跟公教團體的代表先做過一個座談會溝通，現在也蒐集他們的意見，他們的意見蒐集完以後，我們會跟原來蒐集的相關財經指標一起做評估，評估之後我們就會提方案到待遇審議委員會，然後待遇審議委員會通過以後，我們就會把建議的方案提給行政院。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.313000+08:00","text":"好，那這樣的時間預計什麼時候？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.613000+08:00","text":"現在都已經6月囉！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:04.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:05.453000+08:00","text":"今年已經過一半了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:09.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:11.795000+08:00","text":"對，我們會抓住這個時程，因為那個要配合……","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:13.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:13.656000+08:00","text":"時程是什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:14.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:16.257000+08:00","text":"上次有跟委員報告說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:16.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:17.257000+08:00","text":"就是7月？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:17.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:18.257000+08:00","text":"6、7月，就是7月以前……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:18.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:19.257000+08:00","text":"6、7月，也就是說這個月……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:17.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:20.539000+08:00","text":"7月以前會有定案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:21.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:25.541000+08:00","text":"好，那7月送給行政院之後，通常都要多久的時間？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:26.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:29.522000+08:00","text":"因為到7月，今年度又已經快結束了。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:29.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:35.944000+08:00","text":"因為它要配合總預算的時程，所以一定會在這個時間做決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:36.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:38.185000+08:00","text":"所以就是在8月之前？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:38.185000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:39.185000+08:00","text":"對，8月以前一定會做決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:38.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:39.845000+08:00","text":"因為在總預算提出之前嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:39.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:22:41.226000+08:00","text":"對，總預算提出之前一定會有決定。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:22:41.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:00.765000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分希望人事總處這邊，你們也是身為公務人員的一份子，經濟成長要跟公務人員共享，我想這是大家的共識，也希望大家能夠積極處理，這個進度加快一點，幫我們的公務人員爭取另一個調薪的機會。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:01.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:01.626000+08:00","text":"我們來趕，我們來趕。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:01.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:01.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:04.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:32.647000+08:00","text":"另外，再請教您，我們今天審議的是軍公教人員待遇調整條例的修法，我們也有提出相關的版本，尤其是針對這個部分，我想請教一下，人事總處的報告是說，已經有把軍公教待遇調整條例草案送交行政院了是嗎？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:32.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:35.350000+08:00","text":"報告委員，是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:35.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:36.191000+08:00","text":"什麼時候送交的？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:36.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:39.534000+08:00","text":"我們是113年12月送的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:40.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:44.680000+08:00","text":"113年12月就送了，那為什麼現在院會還沒有排審？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:45.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:48.401000+08:00","text":"因為行政院要處理的案子當然很多啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:48.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:48.881000+08:00","text":"那我們……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:49.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:23:51.122000+08:00","text":"對，但這件事情相對不重要就對了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:23:51.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:04.766000+08:00","text":"也不是，在立法院裡面其實朝野的委員都很關心這件事情，然後我們也一直有跟行政院在討論這件事，我想我們會儘快把這個案子的院版送過來。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:08.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:11.770000+08:00","text":"儘快送過來，已經從113年12月到現在囉！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:11.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:18.395000+08:00","text":"這已經不是儘快，尤其是現在這種AI時代，這個已經是落後非常久了，那表示說……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:18.395000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:19.395000+08:00","text":"這個我們來努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:18.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:24.019000+08:00","text":"是行政院認為這個不重要，所以不把它排入院會，還是卓榮泰院長認為這不重要？","quality":0.576},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:24.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:29.083000+08:00","text":"這個案子就是很重要，可能評估得比較審慎，我們最近也有密集在反映。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:29.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:31.945000+08:00","text":"你們應該是在送草案之前就已經評估非常久了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:32.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:34.226000+08:00","text":"找了非常多的團體一起，大家共同來研議嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:34.226000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:40.078000+08:00","text":"我們有徵詢過團體的意見，也有蒐集各國的制度來做相關的比較。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:40.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:42.880000+08:00","text":"是，所以都已經送行政院那麼久了……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:42.880000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.880000+08:00","text":"我想行政院應該會……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.880000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:44.880000+08:00","text":"請問一下，行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.380000+08:00","text":"我們會很快把這個案子送過來。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.380000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:44.380000+08:00","text":"很快是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.440000+08:00","text":"我們儘快。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:43.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:44.141000+08:00","text":"行政院現在院會都還沒排進去吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:44.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:24:56.573000+08:00","text":"現在還在排工作時程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:24:56.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:03.580000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們人事總處要積極一點，既然朝野都有這個共識。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:03.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:04.580000+08:00","text":"好，我們來努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:03.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:13.849000+08:00","text":"人事總處也都已經提出版本，應該要把我們的軍公教人員待遇法制化，我想這是大家共同的想法，所以人事總處應該要積極地去處理，好嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:17.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:52.830000+08:00","text":"另外想請教你，除了要法制化之外，我們也覺得現在的薪資待遇調整應該要決策公開透明化，過去因為都是行政院在密室協商，行政院自己決定要加薪或不加薪，現在我們提出的版本裡面有強制規定，待遇審議委員會必須要納入現職的軍公教代表，請問一下，目前你們送立法院的版本裡面有沒有提到這個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:54.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:56.452000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在我們送行政院的版本有公教代表。","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:56.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:25:57.532000+08:00","text":"有公教的代表？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:25:59.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:00.249000+08:00","text":"那軍人的部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:00.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:13.373000+08:00","text":"軍人的部分，其實我早上有做過說明，因為軍人基於工作的特性、國安的考量，一般國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商的範圍，但是我們其實是有請國防部派代表。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:13.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:17.594000+08:00","text":"你們請國防部代表軍人，但是問題是，現在你們公教的代表的比例是幾位？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:17.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:18.594000+08:00","text":"目前我們規劃是4位。4位。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:17.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:17.894000+08:00","text":"那你們的成員是幾位？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:28.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:31.354000+08:00","text":"我們的成員目前是規劃21位。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:31.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:33.737000+08:00","text":"好，21位，然後公家代表只有4位，也就是只有五分之一而已。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:34.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:26:35.159000+08:00","text":"還有地方機關人員、學者專家。對啊。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:26:35.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:27:25.527000+08:00","text":"那等於說真正的基層公教人員代表才4位，也就是五分之一，那這樣子的話，他們的意見跟他們所要表達的要求，其實在整個審議委員會裡面，可能根本完全起不了什麼作用，就變成說，你們只是安排有基層的公教人員在裡面，可是事實上完全沒有辦法影響，而這攸關他們最重要的權益，他們才是當事人，所以這個部分我覺得應該比例的部分應該要調整，翁曉玲委員的版本裡面就有特別提到，就是軍公教各3位，至少有9位，比例就是三分之一，那針對這個部分，是不是可能調整到三分之一呢？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:27:27.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:27:32.613000+08:00","text":"院版送過來以後，朝野的委員應該會很有智慧地……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:27:32.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:27:34.835000+08:00","text":"副人事長，您自己覺得呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:27:35.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:27:52.611000+08:00","text":"站在你的立場，其實我們現在很多相關的審議委員會，基層的代表幾乎都有三分之一，就像之前我們修海保法，後來漁民代表也大概占了三分之一左右，我想這是最基本的。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:27:52.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:16.112000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，早上其實也有其他委員詢問這個問題，關於待遇調整，現在各國的制度上，當事團體有建議或表達意見的機會，最後因為是涉及整個國家資源的分配，決策權還是要在政府機關。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:16.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:24.299000+08:00","text":"這個當然我們知道，但是就是比例要占三分之一，我現在也不說過半，就是三分之一來去表達他們的意見，這個應該不為過吧？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:24.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:24.960000+08:00","text":"那針對這個部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:25.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:27.242000+08:00","text":"委員的意見，我們都會拿回去參考。好。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:27.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:34.769000+08:00","text":"另外也希望你們能夠尊重審議的結果，因為現在看起來大概都是行政院決定，既然有一個審議委員會，應該要尊重委員會的權益，是嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:40.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:52.171000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，大家都擔心會是一人決策，其實這個案子不會是一人決策，因為整個制度的規劃都有相關的指標。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:28:52.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:28:58.116000+08:00","text":"那請問一下，如果未來這個審議委員會做成待遇調整的建議，行政院是不是會尊重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:01.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:06.548000+08:00","text":"以現行的運作來講，按照過去的經驗，大部分時間都是會尊重。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:06.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:07.448000+08:00","text":"就是會尊重？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:07.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:12.510000+08:00","text":"那如果行政院不同意的話，有沒有什麼具體的條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:13.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:17.492000+08:00","text":"還是說，有什麼理由會再重新召開審議會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:17.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:18.632000+08:00","text":"還是沒有，就是照行政院說的算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:18.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:24.975000+08:00","text":"目前現有的制度化機制是沒有。對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:25.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:48.704000+08:00","text":"那就是我剛剛講的這個問題，我們還是希望要尊重審議的結果，既然你開了一個審議委員會，把結果給行政院，那行政院就應該要尊重，否則就不用開這個審議委員會，因為就是你剛剛講的，21位代表的是各界的意見，不管是專家學者、基層代表、公家機關，都已經有這樣子的建議，所以是不是應該尊重審議的結果？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:48.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:54.347000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就是現行運作的狀況，行政院都是尊重委員會的建議。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:54.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:29:55.928000+08:00","text":"所以會尊重審議的結果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:29:56.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:20.905000+08:00","text":"最後我想請教一下，我們現在提出的版本，就是希望明定消費者物價指數CPI累積成長達3%的時候，或是每4年要定期調整，然後調幅也不得低於通膨率的二分之一，請問你們現在送行政院的版本裡面，目前的調整方向是怎麼樣？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:22.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:34.270000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，行政院還沒有送過來最後定稿，但是我剛剛一開始報告的時候其實也有講，這個部分我們都有納進條文去做考量。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:34.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:42.274000+08:00","text":"所以你是說，CPI達3%、每4年要定期檢討也有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:44.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:47.136000+08:00","text":"對，啟動的條件等我們都有規劃。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:47.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:48.016000+08:00","text":"你們都有規劃？對。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:48.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:49.197000+08:00","text":"那調幅不得低於通膨率的二分之一，這個也都有規劃？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:30:49.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:30:51.778000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有報告，這是一個專業的委員會的評估，然後也有相關明確的指標在進行，那因為總的國家資源的分配，主政者還是要去負最後的責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:31:14.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:31:23.617000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我們希望能儘快，也希望人事總處能夠請行政院儘快，因為立法院今天已經特別針對這個部分排審了，那也希望行政院趕快把院版送進來，我們在審查的過程中才能把院版納入，否則的話，我們這樣審一審，院版又來不及進來的話，我們可能就沒有辦法把這個版本併入審查。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:31:35.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:31:35.983000+08:00","text":"我們也希望院版併審。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:31:36.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:31:36.364000+08:00","text":"對，希望能夠儘快。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:31:36.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:31:38.245000+08:00","text":"最後再請教一個問題，針對職場霸凌的部分，從109年的12件大幅增加到114年的132件，5年成長了10倍，這5年間成長了10倍，究竟是公務機關霸凌的問題越來越嚴重，還是人事總處過去的預防機制根本沒有發揮作用？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:31:38.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:31:38.465000+08:00","text":"人事總處要怎麼解讀這個現象？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:32:06.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:32:53.011000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個問題當然大家都很重視，在去年保障法修法之前，我們整個國家的法制對職場霸凌的定義，都沒有一個作用法明確的規範，然後主管機關到底是誰都還沒有明確，所以在那個過渡期，人事總處有努力地先做一個指引，讓各機關可以執行，然後在去年大家努力地去推這一塊，針對職場霸凌的防治，也修了保障法、也修了安衛辦法，安衛辦法是去年7月1日就實施，然後保障法是今年1月9日……","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:32:53.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:33:05.236000+08:00","text":"可是監察院有調查多起霸凌案件，發現部分的人事單位不但沒有協助被害人，甚至出現勸退的情形，要求當事人自行檢討，請問這是怎麼一回事？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:33:05.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:33:22.069000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個可能有點太簡化了，我覺得絕大多數的人事同仁其實都很兢兢業業在處理，如果委員有聽到地方基層的聲音，應該也知道我們人事同仁處理這個領域的工作，其實也是盡力在做。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:33:23.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:33:38.280000+08:00","text":"霸凌案件越來越多，所以我們希望，除了你們事後調查懲處之外，還是要建立一個預警的機制，主動地介入制度，就像你剛剛講的，我們可能有一些預警的機制，然後有一些宣導。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:33:38.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:13.323000+08:00","text":"未來我覺得會更好，因為今年制度已經完備化了，主管機關也確定是保訓會，現在處理的方式就是在調查小組要有二分之一的外聘委員，就是外部介入的力量已經變大了，然後安衛的委員會也至少有三分之一的外聘委員，像調查小組，如果因為是機關首長而沒有上級，其實外聘的委員是要達到三分之二，另外保訓會也可以做外部的抽查，所以這個……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:14.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:20.311000+08:00","text":"希望這個部分要確實地落實，讓我們的公務人員不要再受霸凌之苦。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:20.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:21.913000+08:00","text":"我們會努力去跟保訓會協作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:22.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:22.193000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:22.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:22.213000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:22.713000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:24.998714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:25.298714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:27.870143+08:00","text":"接下來請沈發惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:28.170143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:31.598714+08:00","text":"沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-10T11:34:31.898714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-10T11:34:35.327286+08:00","text":"接下來我們請范雲委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}