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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1217.675,"end":1219.897,"text":"討論事項一審查行政行政審議"},{"start":1234.093,"end":1241.541,"text":"委員王美樂等20人 委員李坤城等18人委員吳麗華等16人 委員賴瑞榮等16人委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃婕等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人委員邱振軍等17人"},{"start":1248.496,"end":1277.587,"text":"等21人 委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據電業法第71條之一條文修正查案等11案 二審查行政案件審議 委員王美惠等20人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳立華等16人 委員賴銳龍等16人 委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳情飛等17人 委員邱振軍等24人及委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據自然天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案等11案"},{"start":1278.993,"end":1304.104,"text":"三 審查行政院行政審議 委員王美惠等19人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃婕等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人及委員吳佩義等16人 分別擬據自來水法第91條之一條文修正草案等9案及委員賴瑞郎等16人擬據自來水法第3條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1307.212,"end":1327.126,"text":"我们现在先介绍现场的列席官员首先是经济部常务次长赖建信赖次长谢谢能源署署长李军理理署长水利署署长林元鹏林署长中油副总经理黄荣裕黄副总还有电力公司处长刘建勋刘处长"},{"start":1328.12,"end":1345.161,"text":"我們台水總經理李丁來 李總經理海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶清 謝副署長還有內政部地政司檢任視察張哲銘 張視察後還有我們國家安全局第三處專委"},{"start":1346.022,"end":1375.24,"text":"黄专委谢谢还有交通部港局副局长陈冰泉谢谢还有法务部参事廖江县这个廖参事那还没开始之前我想那个其实我们很多的那个都是一样就是在咨询就是说像我昨天在跟内政部沟通的就是当我们七法要正式上路的时候我们要有一个宣誓来看这里我们的咨询就是在这里"},{"start":1376.221,"end":1401.164,"text":"那我们可以提供给大家的大概在哪边给大家清楚知道否则其实我们很多在诉讼的一个争议就是说我不知道那你也知道说大概大家到时候都是律师那种强大律师群的论战所以我觉得我们先把这些问题做好就是说就是在这里"},{"start":1402.064,"end":1423.021,"text":"那你們可以提供什麼你們最清楚那提供什麼然後位置在哪裡就是說就是在這裡那我們的七法要上路了請大家遵守我們也資訊在哪裡都給你們了千萬不要明知而故犯我覺得這很重要所以這大概"},{"start":1424.298,"end":1442.898,"text":"因为在那个委员里面也有一个委员是有这样的提案可是我知道那个要入法是很困难的然后也有困难所以我想我们到时候那个你写个附带决我觉得你们写个附带决就是说像我讲的这个样子就在期法上路的时候内政部会有一个"},{"start":1444.248,"end":1471.713,"text":"比较透明跟大家这个资讯跟大家说就是在这里一个宣示性的我觉得是不是我们写一个附带决议这样子大家就会比较安心不会是说到时候会有一些争议我们希望就是不要争议我们既然法从这个刑事跟处罚的部分都有的话那么我们就给大家更清楚了解"},{"start":1472.964,"end":1486.293,"text":"你要負擔什麼樣的責任可是你也知道那是在哪裡不會讓你故意去誤闖好這樣子那我們先好"},{"start":1487.813,"end":1510.796,"text":"我们讨论事项所列议案共三案本会在昨日会议均已询答结束也宣读条文完毕那我们今日继续审查那我们因为刚刚还有个修正东还没签完那我们等他修正东一过来之后再来那个那这个时间先去跟那个省委员刚刚不是来吗"},{"start":1511.677,"end":1533.571,"text":"對我介紹一下沈伯央委員來先跟沈伯央委員溝通一下你他的那個議案對我們先休息謝謝我們另外在場委員還要再兩位我們現在已經都在路上了不好意思因為我們真的電梯很難等大家稍等一下"},{"start":1547.824,"end":1572.212,"text":"您好"},{"start":1585.9,"end":1590.762,"text":"那个那个那个因为球营委员你们昨天只有找到他们那个嘛"},{"start":2034.148,"end":2061.401,"text":"開始了來 我們OK了嗎 來好 來 謝謝"},{"start":2072.642,"end":2090.111,"text":"好 謝謝我尊重妳"},{"start":2101.499,"end":2128.383,"text":"沒有 我尊重你 你的事情沒有改過 我不敢開啦沒有啦 他就 這裡就有時間怎麼先說怎麼樣 這是怎麼樣我說OK吧 這裡沒問題嘛所以我這裡有啦 他去扁手啊 他去扁手啦他弄完才出去啦他弄完才出去啦"},{"start":2137.547,"end":2147.45,"text":"開始開會謝謝來我們現在好來我們所有都會回到座位上謝謝來"},{"start":2171.923,"end":2196.665,"text":"好來其他我們就那個你知道問題在哪裡待會就說明就好了來我們回到我們的位置上面去來謝謝那我們現在協商討論事項第一案電業法第71條11條文修正草案共有11個提案版本及楊瓊英委員的等人的修正動議那我們本次會一併審查我們請經濟部次長說明"},{"start":2200.236,"end":2202.478,"text":"報告主席 諸位委員 這是經濟部所提出來的"},{"start":2213.596,"end":2239.293,"text":"电液法天然气事业法跟自来水法的这个主要的说明那主要的意旨是针对于我们过去没有注意到没有特别去强调的部分是过失而且是海底管线的部分因为这些都涉及到民生还有包括国家安全所以我们希望在这边有一个明确的规范那至于相关的可能我们还是有一些必须要一些嚇阻的"},{"start":2240.193,"end":2261.487,"text":"一些的所謂的法條一個規範所以我們針對於針對故意侵害海底的電纜或是海底有管線措施那我們明定說那將來他的犯罪的工具船舶或是其他的機械設備予以沒入這個規定希望起的一個嚇阻的效果 懇請委員會大力支持"},{"start":2262.028,"end":2288.064,"text":"那今天諸多委員的這個提案我們也願意聆聽委員的指導意見然後會前也跟諸位委員做一個溝通希望大家支持院版的案子以上報告我也跟大家報告因為昨天我們在結束之前我有請我們經濟部的部長要協同我們相關的人員同仁一定要跟我們各委員提案委員去做說明"},{"start":2288.644,"end":2311.321,"text":"那现在基本上我们也会尊重所有虽然提案委员没有在现场那基本上他们都没有意义那依照院版没有意义就是说有不同这个提案版本的依照院版没有意义那我们现在就先请教我们有在场的有这个杨琼英委员有没有什么样的意见您"},{"start":2314.09,"end":2327.256,"text":"對 院版 對他們對院版沒有意見安妮呢那那個修正動議是…那我們提的修正動議都一樣所以你有什麼意見就一併處理所以我們剛剛我們所提的三個案子的修正動議他們都同意"},{"start":2328.979,"end":2350.684,"text":"他們都同意因為院版有的文字是沒有所以你變成你的會議記錄就是我們的提案所以就有你的提所以我再請他們做最後確認你們的意見就是您有修正動議的部分我們有修正動議三個案子剛剛也經過會前的一個協商就是要請問你們"},{"start":2352.314,"end":2366.614,"text":"针对于我们修正动议的内容他们刚刚有协调过你们是同意的吗来 你说明来 市长说明谢谢委员指导我们第一个指导的意见是针对于这个"},{"start":2368.022,"end":2391.447,"text":"過失的部分 行渡的部分行渡的部分因為我們考量到一個比例的原則事實上在過去我們實際上維護管理的過程裡面針對海底管線或是纜線的設施有時候是民眾或是漁民或是管理的人員因為他的作業然後造成一個過失造成我們這些諸類的設施來損害"},{"start":2393.187,"end":2411.944,"text":"那我们希望说在这个部分来跟故意做一个区隔那所以恳请委员针对于包括所谓的刑度的部分因为我们跟其他的集法是一样的那建议说委员予以支持那第二点的这个意见是委员有询问到包括管线"},{"start":2412.825,"end":2423.939,"text":"跟海底電纜跟管路之間的有一個不同那在這邊經濟部所提的三個法裡面其中包括電液法的部分它是一個電纜線電纜線它裡面有實際的所謂的電線的實心的設施"},{"start":2429.286,"end":2458.566,"text":"那管路比如说是包括油气管路或是自来水管路它是一个空心的概念那在这个部分其实我们国家也有明确针对于电缆跟管路之间不同有做定义那第三点的一个意见就是说刚刚委员有提到过失的一个部分其他就是因为过失除了针对于海底管线之外针对于过失对其他设施会有影响"},{"start":2459.566,"end":2481.077,"text":"正常营运之不渝的也要纳入这个里面来处理那这个部分因为它可能就会有涉及到比如说我们的陆地上的一些的管线的开挖或是说我们电厂或是说我们水厂里面的营运我们建议说是比照我们院版7法的这个案例在这个部分予以排除以上"},{"start":2481.897,"end":2509.455,"text":"好 那個主席針對於三個的部分就是說因為過失毀損我們今天之所以要修這個法也就是希望它能夠真正的安全而且找出是誰破壞的我們的目的是如此照剛剛市長所說的三項裡頭唯一一個就是在自來水的部分就是路上的不納入在這個考量我們這次修法的部分是只有針對於地底下"},{"start":2510.337,"end":2511.782,"text":"剛剛市長的說法是不是如此市長"},{"start":2513.777,"end":2541.17,"text":"妳剛才的說法精神是不是如此精神跟方向是不是如此因為那個涵蓋面會太廣那這樣子就是說在本席所提案的這個部分就是針對自來水的部分刪除剛剛所說的那你們文字修正希望怎麼修請你們待會寫出來好 謝謝文字修正那另外這個自來水的這個案子我們一案一案來 來來來對 她三個案子沒有 她三個案子一起來她報告完了"},{"start":2541.73,"end":2570.096,"text":"我知道他報告完但是我們要一案一案審因為我們要一案一案出 對可是他三項都有一併報告完啊那你就趕快把自來水那個文字怎麼修你把它修完寫來那電頁法的部分電頁法就針對於電頁法第71條之一的這個部分那這個沒有問題啊本席的提案你們同意這些文字嗎"},{"start":2573.031,"end":2600.974,"text":"對 電頁法電頁法就是依照本席所我們這個修正同意同意啊同意他們同意啊他修正同意你們同意啊你們的文字你們再修出來我們待會再宣讀沒有他同意啊這不用了電頁法同意啊對啊這本席所提的修正同意是一樣是一致的嘛你同意楊委員的修正的文字電頁法電頁法修正文字你還把它"},{"start":2601.574,"end":2626.07,"text":"拿过来同意啊再宣读好OK再宣读好然后我们先宣读你现在想要一案一案就对了没有没有那个我们先宣读一下还有一个修正动议对你先宣读那个沈伯扬那个这个修正动议订业法第七十一条之一修正动议第二案修正第四项除第四项修正委员等一下等一下他在宣读"},{"start":2627.171,"end":2646.216,"text":"因过失毁坏海底电力电缆之功能正常运作者处一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科薪台币300万元以下罚金其余同行政院提案提案人陈亭飞 邱毅英 杨琼英 沈伯扬天然气失业法第55条之一修正冬季第二案"},{"start":2647.156,"end":2673.173,"text":"第55條之一 處第四項修正為因過失毀壞天然氣進口事業之海底輸氣管線之功能正常運作者處一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科興臺幣300萬元以下罰金其餘同行政院提案提案人陳亭飛 邱益英 楊瓊英 沈伯陽自來水法第97條之一修正動議第二案第97條之一"},{"start":2675.393,"end":2693.997,"text":"除第四項修正為因過濕毀壞自來水事業之海底送水管線之功能正常運作者除一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金其餘通行政院提案提案人陳亭飛 邱益穎 楊瓊英 沈伯陽宣讀完畢"},{"start":2701.985,"end":2717.155,"text":"好來那個來瑞榮委員好我想針對於整個這個提案包括電液法包括天然氣視野法還有自來水法不管是電纜或者是天然氣管或者是自來水管水管的部分其實都非常重要都適宜到"},{"start":2718.105,"end":2747.013,"text":"國安的問題所以我支持整個必須要加重那除了過失之外如果故意當然必須要加的更重這個才能夠嚇阻那我也建議各位是不是能夠都支持行政院版本那當然如果院版裡面其他的部分的委員的能夠納入的也希望行政院經濟部門整體來考量好不好一併來納入我們希望這個法更完善那能夠更確保我們國家的安全確保包括這些電纜包括自來水管包括天然氣管的安全"},{"start":2747.438,"end":2774.411,"text":"我希望用这样的方式能够加快审查的速度谢谢我跟大家报告一下因为现在几乎我们电缆三法所有的案子所以我先念过一次我们大概一个案一个案来做通过但是我现在我们针对就是那个电液法第71条之一条文修正草案然后还有第二案是天然气失业法"},{"start":2774.751,"end":2797.775,"text":"第55条之一条文修正草案其中也是一个版本还有杨琼英委员的修正动议还有我们自来水法就是我们的讨论第三案自来水法第三条第16条之一及第97条之一的条文修正草案共有10个版本及杨琼英委员等人的修正动议所以我们就全部一起讨论然后待会我们就"},{"start":2798.155,"end":2825.925,"text":"一個案一個案通過來確認所有的內容所以大家發言可以一致喔因為我看大家都壞話都一樣沒有沒有沒辦法因為意思沒辦法因為剛跟議事人員溝通的不然大家都說一樣因為像瑞隆也是啊所以對對來那個我們請沈伯央委員待會兒請他喝飲料 請他要伯伯哥來沈伯央委員"},{"start":2826.668,"end":2849.254,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那針對這個電業法71條之一我這邊提的修正動議 因為我的還來不及進委員會那這邊其實很簡單第一個就是我們這個跟院版其實在當時討論過來回多次但是我後來在看的時候發現文字上有一些奇怪的地方第一個就是我們在71條之一目前的刑度在故意的設計上是一年到七年"},{"start":2849.814,"end":2877.862,"text":"那我們過失的設計是六個月以下中間有一個急劇的一個差異那剛剛已經有跟他們溝通了就是說當然在刑法上面本來有時候也都會有這種故意跟過失刑度差距比較大的一個狀況但因為今天海嵐的部分因為破壞海嵐這件事情他很容易就是很難證明故意所以就會全部送到過失所以如果這邊的過失跟故意有差一個急劇的話我覺得可能在嚇阻上效果會比較差"},{"start":2878.502,"end":2900.684,"text":"所以如果一個是1到7年過失應該用一年以下我覺得在這一種案例裡面會比較合理這是第一點那第二點很多人就會怕說那這個很多過失毀壞是愚民那這樣的話會不會很容易就出現就讓這一條變一年以下所以這邊我還有第二個文字上的調整就是原本的條文寫過失毀壞或以其他非法方法"},{"start":2901.064,"end":2928.205,"text":"我把其他非法方法拿掉有兩個原因第一個讓他的條文比較線索第二個是其實在我們刑法上的設計非法方法這個東西他都是除非現在故意啦他不會出現在過失所以你很難去想像什麼叫做過失以其他非法方法為害這個在刑法上面其實是沒有出現的唯一出現只有在過去電信法的一個條文因為他出現過那麼一次結果這次全部都是超難一個所以才會變成這個樣子但"},{"start":2930.026,"end":2957.787,"text":"如果今天不把那個拿掉對執法上不會有任何的影響所以這個就是看這一個目前的這一個主管機關的想法那前面那一個一年的部分呢我就先不講說到底嚇阻的效果如何但是我認為在戈海蘭的狀況之下不要有中間那個急劇的跳過去一到七年完以後直接變一年以下可能會比較合理那我其他的修正案也都是一樣的意思謝謝謝謝我們那個還有誰要發言議員謝謝"},{"start":2962.416,"end":2963.12,"text":"主席我是不是能夠請"},{"start":2964.983,"end":2993.663,"text":"今天法務部有沒有來 法務部是參事嘛對好 那個能不能請法務部的參事就剛剛沈伯陽委員所提出的這個法律意見法務部你們的看法是什麼那我覺得可能對於經濟部來講經濟部有原來自己的考量嘛那就整個法律條文上面的修正意見我是不是想要聽一下法務部的看法好嗎我們請法務部要參事 謝謝"},{"start":2998.937,"end":3011.801,"text":"主席各位那針對這個過失這一個相次的修法那目前目前在我們的法治上就是電信管理法72條"},{"start":3013.784,"end":3040.943,"text":"他有這一個過失犯的處罰就是當時在112年關鍵基礎設施22部法案修法的時候那其中的一部分那目前的現行法治上處罰這個過失犯的規定大概就是電信管理法72條的這個第四項第四項他有這個規定那刑度呢就是跟院版院版的"},{"start":3042.044,"end":3051.751,"text":"這一個條文大概都是參考電管法電信管理法的這個規定而來包括刑度在內那至於說"},{"start":3053.362,"end":3078.057,"text":"行動是不是要調整因為除了剛剛沈委員的這個臨時提案我看目前的草案裡面包括李坤城委員賴瑞榮委員他們在有期徒刑還有罰金也有類似的這個修正你不能你不要跟我講其他委員的類似修正我要問的是您的法律意見你的法律意見我的法律意見就是說"},{"start":3078.517,"end":3099.563,"text":"因為我們這次的修法三部它保護的法例也都是關鍵基礎設施的安全就是跟電信管理法的立法目的或它保護的法例是一樣的那除非政策上有比較特殊的需求否則的話我是建議還是維持原版"},{"start":3100.779,"end":3114.148,"text":"比較能夠跟電信管理法這邊會保持它的均衡性不然的話你會出現同樣是關節基礎設施的一個保護規定那電信管理法是規定的刑度是6年以下6個月以下罰金是200萬"},{"start":3119.943,"end":3142.908,"text":"那我們這邊處理這三部法案它的行動又拉高了那在整個關鍵基礎設施的保護機制上它的均衡性可能會出現一點問題所以我的意見目前來講就是說我們這三部法如果政策上沒有比較明顯的一個需求那建議還是維持原版"},{"start":3144.281,"end":3167.169,"text":"那個我對不起主席我再請教一下就是其實電業這個台體電纜的七法是會一併修的所以下個禮拜交通委員會他們就會排電信管理法那我要請教就是說剛剛伯陽的那個意見比如說你的一年到七年的有期徒刑接下來應該"},{"start":3168.959,"end":3195.34,"text":"他的見解沈博洋的見解是接下來是一年以下有期徒刑可是我們的版本寫的是六個月以下有期徒刑所以你的六個月跟一年之間是有一個gap在的嘛我其實是想要請教您的意見在法條的設計上面這個這個是不是會有會有什麼樣的問題會有什麼樣的過失犯的刑度他並沒有說法律上明定他一定"},{"start":3196.38,"end":3224.254,"text":"要定多少就是說那個是一個立法政策裁量跟立法裁量的立法問題不是說你過一半是一年以上然後過四半就一定一定要多少在法律上他是沒有明文做這種限制這是一個立法裁量的問題那個伯陽你等一下我們先請瓊英你在發言"},{"start":3227.867,"end":3244.244,"text":"三個統一的部分那個次長在這邊就是說我們剛剛電頁法跟天然氣這個照本席的修正文字你們是同意的對不對電頁法是同意的天然氣呢"},{"start":3246.363,"end":3265.377,"text":"來 我們一項一項嘛一項一項對 這樣比較快天然氣本席的修正動議就是你那個電纜跟管道的問題那個啦沒有 那個是解釋對 那個解釋天然氣那個解釋我們了解其實管道通通都是管道只是你們把它分析分析那個叫電纜這個本席可以接受"},{"start":3267.102,"end":3292.8,"text":"那所以你這個天然氣第55條之一本席的修正動議是ok的嗎文字你們是同意的嗎我們一項一項看這個原本委員提案行為兩個字啊非法行為我們建議改成非法方法好可以是七法統一的這個用語對對對好可以行為因過失毀損壞以其他非法方法"},{"start":3293.732,"end":3319.531,"text":"好本席同意那所以主席台這個天然氣事業法第55條之一修正同意就照剛剛的修正文字通過行為改革方法好最後一個自來水的部分來自來水的部分有兩個點第一個就是我剛剛一開始有講的自來水的部分就是我們現在只處理"},{"start":3320.796,"end":3349.332,"text":"地底下的所以地上的不涵蓋在裡面你們的希望是如此那我要勉勵我經過溝通我可以勉強接受因為我們通過這三個法最重要的一個穩定性一個安全度這個非常重要那所以呢統一先處理地底下我現在可以同意剛剛你們也提出了這個希望要更改"},{"start":3350.152,"end":3368.102,"text":"的這個文字我剛剛簽了那其中有一項也是金額的部分金額的部分過失的這個部分呢本席所提的是300萬你們希望是200萬你是不是再給我說明一下金額的差別"},{"start":3368.991,"end":3396.096,"text":"今年的差別第一個是我們希望三百萬變成兩百萬對 差別是什麼第一個所有我們今天的三法事實上都是跟民眾的生活是有關係的而且這個關係的重要程度是不相上下所以我們建議說在這個財量上面或者行度上面的話或是罰金上面是有一致的一個好 這個剛剛市長所說主席台"},{"start":3397.496,"end":3406.682,"text":"雖然市長說希望是三個都一樣但是實際上三個的程度是不一樣的"},{"start":3407.728,"end":3433.179,"text":"你光光它的深度它的長度你完全會不一樣所以它受損的程度也會不一樣但是經過溝通本來我們就是溝通經過溝通所以我要本席要提出本席的論點所以剛剛次長所說的三個都一樣我告訴你三個是都不一樣的樣態但是我勉強可以同意我們循序漸進"},{"start":3434.46,"end":3449.203,"text":"我們以鼓勵替代處罰但是還是要罰所以300萬調為200萬本席同意但是我有一個重點我希望各三單位你們也要做預防的工作"},{"start":3450.124,"end":3470.949,"text":"我們不要說北市不知道就一定過失你還要還這個還一個層面另外就是影響到我們的穩定安全這個才是我們最傷腦筋的所以本期要具體建立因為我們經濟委員會都是最團結的我們來一個主決議請他們在預防方面要多餘去宣導"},{"start":3472.309,"end":3489.46,"text":"所以待會本席提一個這個組決議怎麼樣去宣導我們大家一致讓它通過好不好因為這樣子才會整個完整好不好好 謝謝委員OK那自來水的部分就照剛剛本席簽字的修正文字通過三個案子 謝謝"},{"start":3490.08,"end":3519.666,"text":"那個那個楊昭那個還沒開始之前我已經有請內政部就你剛剛說的要這個主角的那個就已經請他們在你了好我想大家的意見都一樣來我們請邱志偉委員這個這個楊委員修正動議我覺得還我沒有意見但是我問一下這個過去的案例來說過失或故意過失或者故意有沒有過去有哪些案子"},{"start":3521.601,"end":3545.712,"text":"你一般的日海水事業的海底運送管線很少會是故意的很少會是過失的過去案例你分析一下是過失的多還是故意的多謝謝委員這個問題是不是容我們請海巡署因為海上巡訪的時候他才會援引法律我們請海巡署副署長"},{"start":3550.168,"end":3576.463,"text":"跟委員報告我們最近幾年大概都沒有處理到自來水現在就報告最近五年的話平均大概都八件都是海底電信管理法的通傳會的自來水的部分呢?不然目前我們還沒有受理到類似的案件那您預判如果自來水運送的這些管線會不會破壞是過失多還是故意多?"},{"start":3577.083,"end":3591.345,"text":"我們現在這要看個案認定比方說今年2月25號我們我們代案紅太多個級的紅太貨船他就在台南外海拉斷 拉斷海底電纜那這個案子檢察官是用故意"},{"start":3592.383,"end":3612.883,"text":"故意跟他起訴然後法院判刑三年這樣他應該是故意表示他是這樣 要看個人認定因為他是這樣海底他這艘船這艘船它有海底電子海圖電子海圖有標示那個海底電纜的位置那他在海底電纜位置那個地方他是下茅"},{"start":3613.871,"end":3640.857,"text":"第二個中華電信它有發送告警訊號結果它沒有開AIS所以都沒有接收那從我們收證的跡象另外我們包括我們雷情的航機回放所有資訊都會給包括航海知識等都會給檢察官個案認定檢察官依個案證據的話依照論理法則跟紀念法則他研判這個案子是故意是 所以要看個案認定所以我認為會"},{"start":3642.777,"end":3663.937,"text":"海底的縱水管線會受到破壞啊大概是故意的或者它有意志性委員我可以跟你再補充報告一下因為近海的話我們管線被拉斷大概都是近海的比較多都12海里內因為水會比較淺那很多狀況是也有我們漁民在作業 抵托作業"},{"start":3664.918,"end":3689.806,"text":"不管是不是違規啦 監探策略不可以抵托不過也有是用抵托在作業的我們也有查到 也有移送法辦那抵托作業很單純他是在作業他就是哪邊有魚哪邊抓那這個案子的話會嚴重到破壞管線嗎是 也有破壞我們海底電纜那這部分的話檢察官會認定 會認定他是過失所以要依照個案事實來認定"},{"start":3692.101,"end":3706.93,"text":"我是不是也追問一下延澤智為委員那署長因為 副長因為以前的大概每年大概七到八件那過去這些時間以來七到八件裡面有多少是你們認定是故意有多少是認定是過失的"},{"start":3708.511,"end":3735.867,"text":"幾乎是一半一半各一半是一半因為我們的漁民大概都我們認為都是在作業所以我們的漁民多數是過失的就是在拖不小心的數據我們現在我們檢測我們包括以前最早還是用跟中華電信用和解的方式來處理那當然修法之後都是有形式的那不過跟委員報告關鍵在於有中資背景他們都是權力論都是"},{"start":3737.029,"end":3758.43,"text":"掛在外國那這一部分的話我們就用國安層級來看的話因為從航機從AS關閉等等等等雖然不能完全排除它是過失不過從整個跡象來看以鴻太虎18號這個案例來看檢查官從我們收證的基證研判綜合研判他認定是"},{"start":3759.397,"end":3775.446,"text":"故意所以這個案子真的跟委員報告要是個案收證來所以海巡署的看法呢你們認為其實把故意跟過去的部分我們認為應該要分層級因為這個案子因為是最重要的是從眾跟委員報告其中"},{"start":3776.286,"end":3799.676,"text":"意圖影響國家安全跟社會安定甚至已經提高到10年以下華金是5000萬那接下來還有一個故意1年跟7年1000萬以下過失啦過失過失的話因為也牽涉到我們漁民的也有可能是漁民所以我們通盤檢討就比照電信管理法我們認定我們建議還是用6個月"},{"start":3801.337,"end":3830.208,"text":"以下然後200萬以下罰金我們就認為是法律上的話會整理會比較平好了解那另外我再補充一下這個自來水法的部分我有提了一些意見包括圖資的部分能夠建立起來那經濟部的意見是不需要再已經有了相關規定不需要再訂了但我會建議次長再考慮一下既然有了訂上去也並沒有影響的話那是不是把它訂上去把它訂得更清楚這個請次長是不是再考慮看看"},{"start":3831.449,"end":3854.871,"text":"謝謝委員的指導這個部分我們相關的圖資其實主席跟召委都有指示現在海委會它有一個國家海洋資料庫國家海洋資料庫相關的圖資全部都在這個地方可以讓民眾第一個知道當然宣導的部分也是非常的重要我們也感謝委員指導意見那寫上了有什麼影響嗎"},{"start":3855.745,"end":3878.237,"text":"因为其他的这个部分他并没有这样子来论述那另外一个部分是在自然水滑的管理上面那个自然水滑那请雷正博内政部回答一下因为这个对对对那个我请我们已经有请他写个附带决议了因为他们有一些不便之处的部分对来你说明一下"},{"start":3878.857,"end":3895.303,"text":"跟委員說明一下一般船舶在海上如果要資料的話其實不像陸地它會有網路所以它必須要有專業的一個設備那以目前國際來講其實專業設備就是所謂的ADIS系統那ADIS系統就是在船載上國際工業要求一定要裝載的"},{"start":3896.343,"end":3911.381,"text":"那以這樣的圖紙來講其實我們會有所謂政府已經有發布所謂的電子航行圖就ENC部分那國際工業要求這些船舶除了ADIS設備要求之外那你行經我們周邊海域都不需要購買或裝置我們的電子航行圖"},{"start":3912.102,"end":3938.013,"text":"那圖紙上面就會顯示委員所垂行到的有關海嵐跟管道的資訊那以這樣的資訊來講 其實如果他有裝載這些added system或是這樣的圖紙其實他應該知道我們海嵐路由的路徑在哪邊那如果刻意在周邊做徘徊或直直行的一個航行的話其實在認定來講 比較有利於認定是所謂的一個故意的一個過失犯以上"},{"start":3938.713,"end":3952.954,"text":"我想這個部分我們在休息的時候有跟他們溝通就是說我們用附帶決議這個也是我們所有委員都非常關切的就是說如果我們資訊不透明可能未來會變成輸送的爭議"},{"start":3953.935,"end":3981.578,"text":"就是说他会说我不知道所以呢他们基本上现在都有一套系统可是我们希望在我们海揽七法政治上路之前我们一定要做宣示就是我们有哪些系统我们有哪些资料你是可以取得的那如果你有取得而故意然后去做这些迫害那你就是属于故意就没有什么我们会请那个他会有一个附带决议那个条文是附带决议"},{"start":3984.076,"end":4000.965,"text":"對 就是附帶決議條文是附帶決議所以我們就會待會一併宣讀因為這個是我們大家所關心的不要未來變成是訴訟的爭議所以這個部分我們請內政部來擬定這樣的一個條文附帶決議的條文那我們現在請沈博洋委員"},{"start":4003.626,"end":4022.012,"text":"好那我再附帶說明因為剛剛也有跟法務部在討論就是說因為今天這一個像我們在法律的設計上面這個故意跟過失刑度有差距這個是常見但是因為今天海蘭真的是比較特別一點就是說他一旦他不能夠證明故意的話大部分都會落入到這一個過失犯"},{"start":4022.632,"end":4048.772,"text":"所以如果它中間有這一個差距的話會比較不容易達到嚇阻的效果但是如果說今天不是要這一年以下的話像剛剛這個楊委員也有提到這個300元以下的罰金其實我覺得都是可以考慮的一個做法但這個我覺得當然第一線執法單位有他們自己的一些意見因為過失的這一個範圍很廣各式各樣的過失都有而且很多是我們自己的漁民的一些過失但我覺得這個還是應該要納入考慮以上 謝謝"},{"start":4051.711,"end":4059.103,"text":"來 那個是不是OK啦 這樣子你接那個好 來 那有委員還有發言嗎那我們現在OK了齁"},{"start":4063.926,"end":4091.482,"text":"我們有真的其他委員的意見有提案委員他們都是願意照願板楊瓊委員有些修正的一個文字是不是我們來這邊宣讀一下其他委員都沒意見嗎依照願板邱瑩委員賴瑞榮委員沒有只有瓊瑩有些修正文字修正文字給我水利署那"},{"start":4092.833,"end":4122.176,"text":"姊姊她修的跟行政院版一樣所以照行政院版通過好對就是一模一樣就瓊英委員所修正的也跟我們院版都一致啦那謝謝瓊英委員好這樣子OK啦來那我們來好那我們一案一案喔來一案一案說明"},{"start":4124.229,"end":4144.295,"text":"那我們電業法第71條之一我們照行政院院版通過天然氣事業法第55條之一照行政院院版通過自來水法因為第三沒有就是沒有啦就是我們自來水法也是照行政院版通過"},{"start":4146.946,"end":4165.327,"text":"所以第3條第16條之一我們就沒有就不予修正嗎對啊就維持現行條文來自然說自然說吧對好我知道我建議你是不是應該是我們就訂閱法造行政院版通過大家沒有意見這樣一個對"},{"start":4174.874,"end":4188.043,"text":"天然氣事業法第五十五條之一照行政院院版通過有沒有意見自來水法第三條我們不予通過然後維持現行條文有沒有意見沒有"},{"start":4188.396,"end":4204.132,"text":"那自來水法第16條之一我們不予增訂有沒有意見沒有那我們第91條之一我們就照行政院院版通過有沒有意見沒有那附帶決議等一下等一下主席你剛講97條之一喔不是91條喔你剛是念91條97條之一對97條之一"},{"start":4215.287,"end":4243.14,"text":"附帶決議 附帶決議內政部的附帶決議呢來 他還在修 來對 他還在修 來 等他印給大家還OK嗎來 連署 好 來不是不是 現在對 現在在連署啊 現在已經連署啊"},{"start":4246.849,"end":4250.532,"text":"我說他有沒有OK我們先確定他們OK我們才拿給大家看來"},{"start":4278.055,"end":4295.422,"text":"內政部來解釋一下OK 好了解請內政部與海南區域網絡通過請將海南區管道組織對外公布並會同如果是相關主委的話就都不用了"},{"start":4305.117,"end":4315.991,"text":"因會同,相關,這發掉了你這什麼海委會,這都不用了,相關單位可以的,可以的,可以的不然你怎麼這麼盡量,你怎麼...因為它都關得準,像中央部也關得準,就漁船,每天都搞到"},{"start":4322.519,"end":4337.502,"text":"不是啊,你這個還要寫嗎?如果有寫相關機關那邊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,"},{"start":4350.234,"end":4351.155,"text":"主管加強宣導"},{"start":4379.769,"end":4401.034,"text":"那個主席你剛才簽的我們有改幾個字就是把那個單位去除統一相關單位不然你現在有的漏掉你指定那三個其他加入有困難所以伸縮要有就是統成那再可以發言喔"},{"start":4402.253,"end":4424.002,"text":"那在這個簽的當中那個附帶決議就照這樣子我們修改的部分但是次長我還是要跟你討論雖然我勉強同意自來水的部分就是說地底下當然也包括海底下那其實你們一直在推海水淡化所以未來這個也是"},{"start":4426.762,"end":4436.715,"text":"也算是海底下的管線現在也都在推所以這一塊 譬如說金門的或是台東的 花蓮的"},{"start":4442.073,"end":4458.644,"text":"這一些都非常有機會 一定會碰到雖然剛剛海洋署說會在12海里之內的機率會比較高因為他比較淺 淺的沒有但是過失跟故意既然是佔50% 50%"},{"start":4461.326,"end":4483.938,"text":"所以雖然今天我勉強同意如此但是也列為我們機關單位要隨時注意因為你到時候你像那個新加坡 馬來西亞他們就是必須要這樣子如果是故意或者是過失不管什麼方式但是就是破壞到那到時候怎麼辦"},{"start":4485.639,"end":4513.02,"text":"所以這個當然我們就是循序漸進先解決這一個部分但是我們也希望就是說方法方式都一直訊息萬變而且是世界的趨勢所以這個你們的行政部門也必須列入在考管的項目內這個我認為有必要以上再次建言 謝謝"},{"start":4600.021,"end":4620.226,"text":"我們先宣讀附帶決議附帶決議基於海上人命安全國際公約SOLS要求船舶應裝置電子海圖顯示及資訊系統以及攜帶航程所需足夠的航海圖與航海刊物"},{"start":4661.872,"end":4690.168,"text":"附帶決議基於海上人命安全國際公約要求船舶應裝置電子海圖顯示及資訊系統以及攜帶其航程所需足夠的航海圖與航海刊物故未避免後續行為人主張為支援海覽及管道相關資訊造成故意及過失要件認定疑慮請內政部於海覽期法通過前將海覽及管道圖資都要公佈並會同"},{"start":4691.604,"end":4712.712,"text":"相關機關加強宣導 讓各界知悉避免觸法 同時亦有利於執法及移送檢調偵辦 原屬人陳廷輝 楊瓊英 邱毅英 賴瑞榮宣讀完畢好 對於附帶決議大家沒有意見嗎有沒有意見沒有 通過來 我們請一併宣讀協商結論宣讀協商結論"},{"start":4720.215,"end":4743.609,"text":"電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案 照行政提案通過天然氣事業法第55條之一 條文修正草案 照行政提案通過自來水法第3條不予通過 維持現行條文增訂第16條之一 不予增訂第97條之一 照行政提案通過通過附帶決議一項 宣讀完畢"},{"start":4745.803,"end":4750.173,"text":"請問各位同仁照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過請問有無異議有沒有異議有沒有異議"},{"start":4757.065,"end":4775.976,"text":"沒有異議通過然後討論事項所列議案均審查完畢三案分別並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論請問討論事項第一案電業法第71條之一條文修正草案需不需交由黨團協商不"},{"start":4783.001,"end":4803.806,"text":"請問討論事項第二案天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正草案需不需要交由黨團學商請問我們現在三法我們只有先三法然後司法還在分分數他們是希望這樣對"},{"start":4807.884,"end":4827.414,"text":"對然後請問討論事項第三案自然水法第三條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正草案需不需要交由黨團協商好謝謝所以我們三個案都不需交由黨團協商那"},{"start":4832.216,"end":4843.996,"text":"沒有 所以我們三法之後我們處理三個啦另外其他的委員會對 司法就是在他們其他委員會所以他們因為現在就是說他們後續他們怎麼那到最後如果他們有一件還是全部都要對對我們先"},{"start":4847.216,"end":4869.049,"text":"對啊 不需要啦現在我們在前面啦我們在前面然後我們院會討論時三案均有本席說明那審裁通過的條文相關法制用語我們就授權主席及議事人員整理那本日所列議程均已處理完畢現在散會謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}