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邀请国家安全局报告近期东亚情势变化对我国影响之言兮并被质询国家安全局局长蔡明彦报告委员陈永康等12人质询均由国家安全局局长蔡明彦即席答复决定已登记质询在场委员均已发言完毕报告及询答结束二 委员黄仁 沈伯扬 林义军 陈冠廷所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报"},{"start":1504.745,"end":1516.673,"text":"三 委員所提書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供資訊請國家安全局於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有對上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤需要更正的地方好 沒有的話我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1530.146,"end":1552.712,"text":"報告事項二邀請外交部經濟部大陸委員會報告我國參與2025年度亞太經濟合作APEC經濟領袖會議之任務及目標並被質詢三邀請國家安全局外交部大陸委員會法務部法務部調查局報告中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處並被質詢宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1557.148,"end":1565.682,"text":"我們先介紹在場的委員通常這麼特殊熱門的議題我們大概都知道來登記的委員不會太多"},{"start":1569.703,"end":1596.037,"text":"這個是有藝術的好 我們在場有永遠準時的陳永康委員羅美玲委員 謝謝好 那另外我們今天兩個專報雙專報都是非常重要的議題尤其還有徐曉欣委員也到場補充介紹那第一個是我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作會議的領袖會議的任務及目標的專報"},{"start":1597.057,"end":1625.504,"text":"另外是中國對台灣進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓還有我國相關應處的方式那這兩個狀報現在播比較多所以我待會請各位部會進行報告的時候都五分鐘以內每一位口頭報告的都盡量控制在五分鐘以內原則啦好那我們今天列席的官員有外交部長林佳龍亞太司林昭宏市長"},{"start":1627.72,"end":1648.491,"text":"亞非斯 顏嘉良師長歐洲斯 黃師長 黃軍耀拉美 加勒比海斯 鄭麗成北美斯 副師長 焦國祐條法斯 副師長 許博義國祖斯 副師長 張之薩國合斯 副師長 陳敬一"},{"start":1656.748,"end":1677.721,"text":"國傳司司長張秀珍沿社會副主任林世新秘書處副處長王伯漢人事處副處長吳迪文主計處副處長林美瑤資電處副處長羅倩暉公眾外交協調會執行長肖光偉"},{"start":1685.814,"end":1713.747,"text":"台日協秘書長張仁久領務局局長曾振勇另外我們經濟部由國貿署署長劉威廉剛從這個韓國回來另外大陸委員會副主委沈有忠國安局副局長陳松吉法務部政務次長黃士傑"},{"start":1716.94,"end":1729.073,"text":"主任檢察官白勝文另外我們法務部調查局是副局長徐國珍國內安全調查處處長陳宇源"},{"start":1732.708,"end":1752.014,"text":"那我這邊有假單要跟我們本會的同仁宣告第一個我們國安局局長蔡明彥因為他昨天來專報那今天有公務請假本席準假再來我們林佳雄部長因為12點以後一樣是公務所以在12點以後呢也因公務請假本席準假"},{"start":1752.814,"end":1763.714,"text":"另外剛才我們介紹的所有不管是北美 條法等等由副司長代理主官過來的都有出具請假公文我們可以請假都是因為公務"},{"start":1764.718,"end":1774.561,"text":"好 那本日會議有兩項議題以下逐一進行第一項議題邀請外交部 經濟部 大陸委員會報告我國參與2025年度亞太經合會領袖會議的任務及目標並被質詢我們待會會連續兩個報告都報告完"},{"start":1785.365,"end":1795.227,"text":"讓我們就不用進退啦就是兩項報告兩項專案都報告完再開始進行詢答首先請外交部長林佳龍部長報告"},{"start":1802.95,"end":1820.924,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早承蒙邀請就我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作經濟領袖會議的任務及目標進行專庭報告以下簡要說明首先本年的APEC主辦會員"},{"start":1823.736,"end":1830.842,"text":"韓國設定辦會的主題是打造永續明天那三大優先的領域是廉潔創新跟繁榮而韓國為因應"},{"start":1834.11,"end":1857.347,"text":"人口變遷以及人工智慧合作列為本年度的主要成果也期盼透過科技創新跟AI轉型來帶動永續經濟以及包容性的成長利用數位工具作為跨領域議題解方以應對若干APEC經濟體所面臨的出生率下降人口老化以及勞動力短缺的問題"},{"start":1858.368,"end":1874.069,"text":"那麼該兩項的主題與賴總統上任之後致力推動的台灣成為人工智慧島並提出健康台灣的願景那麼積極在佈局AI晶片智慧製造智慧醫療與數位治理等政策方向高度的契合"},{"start":1874.98,"end":1896.348,"text":"那麼就我國出席本年APEC領袖會議的一個準備的情形概要如下那麼本年這個經濟領袖會議是在10月31日到11月1日在韓國慶祝來舉行賴總統是敦請林新義執政再次擔任領袖代表"},{"start":1897.108,"end":1916.044,"text":"那麼我國代表團也在28日出發除出席相關會議之外並呢與其他的經濟體的領袖交流以分享台灣的成功經驗賴總統另外有交付三樣重要的一個任務請林領袖在會中來傳達這包括第一"},{"start":1916.604,"end":1941.67,"text":"台灣致力強化經濟韌性為促進區域經貿發展作出貢獻第二 台灣願分享先驅產業經驗促進公私協力以應對全球的挑戰第三 台灣推動以人為本的AI發展來作為實現APEC共同願景的助力此外 在政府協助之下我國有三位APEC企業諮詢委員會就是APEC代表"},{"start":1942.31,"end":1964.632,"text":"那鴻基公司的陳俊盛董事長台灣大哥大的林之成總經理以及廣達電腦的張家淵技術長是三位我們的APEC的一個企業諮詢委員那麼他們呢共同的強調利用數位工具來作為跨領域議題的解方透過公司協力那麼使AI成為亞太經濟發展的驅動力"},{"start":1966.514,"end":1984.088,"text":"深獲所有APEC會員高度的肯定跟重視而三位代表的倡議也獲納入自領袖建言以及專業部長的信函特別是張家淵技術長她就生技及醫療的一個工作小組向21個經濟體的衛生部長代表做出報告那麼"},{"start":1990.117,"end":2010.363,"text":"在我國參與APEC方面自從1991年加入至今已逾30年我們特別在強調的幾個我們的強項的領域在APEC平台上除了參與之外也貢獻包括數位創新 智慧醫療 韌性供應鏈女性賦權與中小企業發展等等倡議"},{"start":2015.205,"end":2019.547,"text":"那麼在到今年的10月30日為止韓方已經辦理了14場部長級的會議跟高階會議那麼這個包括台灣也積極的參與派部長、次長等高階的官員與會此外各機關本年共提出了10項的計畫案獲得APEC"},{"start":2039.757,"end":2055.602,"text":"經費的補助總金額逾98萬美金那麼我國在台主辦了34場APEC相關的會議和活動領域也相當的多元包括數位創新女性父權與數位健康等等那麼具體展現我國積極參與及貢獻APEC的一個成果那麼最後"},{"start":2060.27,"end":2087.935,"text":"APEC是我國平等參與最重要的政府間國際組織之一每年有來自40個政府機關超過500人次出席與300場的APEC會議未來我國將持續善用在科技創新 數位轉型 智慧醫療與中小微企業發展的領域的優勢深化與APEC會員之間的交流與合作以進一步提升我國在APEC的影響力那麼以上簡要報告那麼第二個報告是"},{"start":2090.081,"end":2114.261,"text":"針對中共對台進行常備管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處呢來進行口頭的簡單的報告那麼首先呢部長你這邊先停一下我們把第一個題目報完後續再第二個題目好 謝謝這樣你會有十分鐘啦是是是 好接下來第一個APEC的主題請國貿署劉署長進行報告"},{"start":2117.281,"end":2119.442,"text":"我們還是幫你們計時 讓你們知道時間一下主席各位先進 陳門各位委員先進邀請這個就經濟部我們參與這個2025年度APEC經濟領袖會議的任務跟目標進行報告"},{"start":2147.81,"end":2166.776,"text":"那麼以下簡要說明有關韓國2025年辦會的主題跟優先的領域如同剛剛林部長所提到的他是以這個打造永續明天為主題提出連結創新跟繁農三個主要的這個領域並且關注人工智慧回應人口挑戰還有促進文創產業發展這些議題"},{"start":2168.817,"end":2190.126,"text":"那經濟部主要是運用我們在科技領域的優勢 切合韓國今年關注的AI議題積極在APEC各個論壇跟工作小組提案跟辦理活動來展現我們從製造轉向創新並樂園辦理這個跟理念相近夥伴的這個分享我們台灣的經驗來加深彼此的夥伴關係"},{"start":2192.006,"end":2218.482,"text":"經濟部在這方面的提案主要包括運用AI技術協助中小微企業的數位轉型例如我們的產業技術師提出運用AI技術驅動區域產業設計創新來提升中小微企業全球市場的競爭力這個提案透過AI的設計跟解決方案來提升中小微企業的產品開發的效能另外我們的中企署也提出導入AI助力企業"},{"start":2221.064,"end":2241.636,"text":"這個成長倡議透過舉辦國際研討會還有邀請各國的專家跟業界的代表來探討如何協助中小微企業運用AI的工具來導入實際的營運來加速他們的轉型跟升級另外我們也透過舉辦活動跟提案的方式來探討AI對供應鏈韌性跟ICT生態系的發展的影響"},{"start":2242.777,"end":2262.802,"text":"例如我們的產業技術師有辦理以5G智慧製造強化供應鏈韌性研討會邀請多國的企業專家來分享5G製造跟現況跟產業應用那國際貿易署也提出人工智慧時代下促進ICT貿易跟生態系發展最佳的實踐跟公司對話的計畫"},{"start":2264.762,"end":2290.541,"text":"我們透過辦理公司的對話來探討貿易措施對ICT生態系發展的影響希望能夠增加ICT國際供應鏈的韌性另外經濟部也積極參與專業部長會議向各國分享我們的經驗包括在APEC中小企業部長會議我們分享我們推動中小企業數位轉型AI人才培育還有培育創新企業的具體做法跟成果"},{"start":2291.081,"end":2309.078,"text":"另外我們也在APEC能源部長會議分享我們在再生能源發展的成果提升電網韌性還有人工智慧應用的實力整體來說經濟部順應全球新興科技發展的趨勢以及本年APEC的主軸就是AI的這個議題"},{"start":2310.539,"end":2335.84,"text":"在APEC場域發揮我們的優勢透過分享經驗跟交流共同強化跟促進區域內中小微企業在各領域應用的能力那我們這些作為也獲得許多經濟體的肯定來彰顯台灣在APEC場域的積極貢獻以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝署長 請回接下來進行報告的是陸委會省副主委進行報告"},{"start":2345.678,"end":2363.391,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早陳蒙貴委員會邀請就我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作經濟領袖會議的任務及目標進行報告那麼本會關注的議題是在於美國總統川普還有中共領導人習近平將於今日稍晚會面"},{"start":2364.131,"end":2391.3,"text":"這是我們今天進行專報的主要的內容首先本會認為美中在川習會前已經舉行了五輪的經貿談判那麼塑造雙方來共同共管或者是在經貿議題上面有能力來降低風險的這樣子一個情勢那麼美中進行四輪的經貿會談雙方近期強化了出口管制的措施事實上是升高了經貿緊張的這個情勢那麼第二點我們關注到在第五輪的"},{"start":2392.561,"end":2410.874,"text":"進貿談判就關稅議題已經有初步達成共識那目標就是為了今日的川習會來塑造積極的這個氣氛那麼在第五輪的進貿談判主要的內容包含了像是關稅分泰尼農產品貿易出口管制稀土大豆T-talk的股權轉移等等議題"},{"start":2412.075,"end":2433.593,"text":"我們也同時研判美國的財政部長貝森特也已經表示川普或許會在明年2026年的2月中旬或者是在農曆新年前出訪中國大陸第二 川習會可能會涉及到台灣議題的部分美方已經多次強調不會為中方達成協議而改變長期支持台灣的立場"},{"start":2434.454,"end":2463.137,"text":"那麼幾位重要的領袖表達像川普近日就談到了台灣強調非常尊重台灣另外也警告中共如果犯台的話將會對中方來說非常的危險那我們也同時關注到美國國務卿Rubio在10月25號表明美方不會為了和中方達成協議而改變長期以來支持台灣的立場美國貿易代表Greer他26號也同步的表示美中此輪的貿易談判不會涉及到台灣議題"},{"start":2464.383,"end":2489.499,"text":"那即便如此我們還是會關注中共會藉著川習會一方面來維持美中關係並且也會加大對台宣傳那研判川習會不會整體的改變美中戰略競爭的格局那幾點跟各位分享第一個 中方會藉著川習會來經營美中關係我們研判中方還是會利用川習會的時候重申他們的對台立場並且加大對台的宣傳操作"},{"start":2490.259,"end":2509.197,"text":"中方會尋求美中關係的定調並且作為後續對美政策的一個基礎同時也塑造國際社會支持他們一中反獨的這樣子的立場單方面的會在川習會裡頭重申反獨反介入等等對台基調並且擴大對台灣社會內部渲染以美論還有促統的聲量"},{"start":2510.168,"end":2536.623,"text":"那麼第二美中高層的互動有助於控管美中關係但是美中的結構性矛盾基本上非常難解決競爭還是雙方關係的這個主軸如同前面所提到的美中的貿易談判多次涉及到關鍵戰略以及安全的議題包含像高科技產品的技術出口管制稀土出口分泰尼問題等等那麼中共將會持續的挑戰現行的國際秩序美中關係的競爭格局不會改變"},{"start":2537.583,"end":2557.68,"text":"那么鉴于川习会攸关美中后续互动我们政府也会密注相关的动态来持续的强化和有盟国家的沟通合作第一川习会展现美中控管全世界最重要的双边关系的能力并且为后续川普访中试水温政府会密切的注意后续美中关系的动态"},{"start":2558.697,"end":2587.964,"text":"第二政府會致力維護台海和平穩定的政策是一貫的那麼我們也會持續的強化和美國等民主國家來進行溝通和合作政府致力維持台海和平穩定的立場同時也強化自我防衛的能力捍衛台灣人民自由民主的生活方式我們同時也呼籲北京當局應該要與我方共同承擔維持台海和平穩定的責任並且不預設政治前提來進行溝通與對話尋求合作雙贏之道以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2589.912,"end":2616.286,"text":"謝謝副主委先請回我們第一項議題的專報已經報告完畢那待會相關的不管是幕僚或者首長可以在答詢的時候補充來第二項議題呢邀請國家安全局外交部陸委會法務部法務部調查局報告中共對台進行殘弊管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處並被質詢首先請國安局陳副局長上台報告"},{"start":2624.887,"end":2640.402,"text":"主席 各位委員先生 各位女士先生 大家好感謝大院安排本局進行中共對台長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處報告本局請向各位委員報告如下"},{"start":2641.363,"end":2658.984,"text":"首先分析中共長臂管轄策略及樣態中共在政治、經濟、社會、文化及軍事等層面採取各種威脅及干預手段以削弱台灣主權地位並在台內部營造心理恐慌及對立氛圍"},{"start":2660.509,"end":2678.315,"text":"案例樣態包括依修法擴增國安管轄範圍中共近年修訂《國安法》、《網路安全法》等國安法規並要求各級政府及公民配合管制措施增添國人戶中遭無端羅織罪名風險"},{"start":2679.956,"end":2701.877,"text":"二 設立反毒懲治舉報機制 中共發布懲毒意見 授權中方法院缺席審判並操作舉報制度 企圖將反毒法令向我境內延伸三 沒宣我公民遭判刑實例 中共逮捕我國人 禁制審判"},{"start":2702.978,"end":2726.915,"text":"指控違反分類國家罪是透過中方官媒進行媒宣應用是公佈名單立案懸賞通緝中共發布懸賞通告公開我國人各自立案啟動偵查追責並懸賞違法線索意圖營造對台具司法管轄權假象五"},{"start":2727.955,"end":2756.013,"text":"制裁企業增強威懾力度國台辦宣布制裁所謂台獨分子親屬設立公司禁止中方企業與該公司進行交易謀擴大成獨威嚇效果接續報告應處作為一 強固國內安全維護針對中共如內涉獨清單本局持續指導國安情報團隊註說中共利用在地協力者或黑幫子豬"},{"start":2757.31,"end":2781.777,"text":"資保危害國內特定人士情緒加強必要之安危部署二 依法反制中共滲透便其協調統合國安情報團隊掌握協力中共舉報以制裁作為之團體及個人相關作為違反我國國家安全法國家情報工作法刑法及個人資料保護法提供權責機關依法徵處三 提升國人風險意識"},{"start":2786.314,"end":2804.373,"text":"中共透過制定成都意見等作為對台威嚇監控特定對象本局將蓄意密鑄中共對台安全威脅適時揭露中共圖謀提醒互中風險是強化國際友盟合作"},{"start":2805.327,"end":2820.738,"text":"中共跨境鎮壓不法舉措,向為國際社會所不容,本局與國際合作有方,即與我理念相近國家,強化情報合作及分享機制,機先掌握中共圖謀及做法,及時應處並爭取有門國家支持。"},{"start":2824.028,"end":2847.837,"text":"最後是結語部分 國安情報團隊 持續強化國內安全防護及國際情報合作防範中共對我跨境脅迫及 綿宣操作 以上報告 敬請委員先進不吝指導 持續對我國安工作給予大力支持 謝謝好 謝謝副局長請回 接下來請外交部林佳龍部長上台報告"},{"start":2856.363,"end":2883.395,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士大家好那感謝邀請外交部就中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處進行專題報告並被質詢那報告的書面資料請參閱以下就重點進行口頭報告首先針對中國重慶公安局對沈伯陽委員以所謂涉嫌分裂國家犯罪立案偵查進行跨境鎮壓"},{"start":2884.716,"end":2904.911,"text":"或長臂管轄此舉不僅嚴重踐踏人權製造政治上的寒蟬效應更進一步破壞兩岸關係也坐實了中國就是麻煩製造者外交部和我駐外管處將繼續全力保護海外國人的安全防止中共圖謀得逞"},{"start":2906.687,"end":2925.79,"text":"那麼根據美國自由之家在今年2月發布的報告指出在2024年共有23個國家那麼犯下了共160起跨境鎮壓的事件其中中國是主要的肇事國家之一另外2014年到2024年之間共發生了1,219件的跨國鎮壓事件其中272件和中國有關佔比是22%"},{"start":2936.172,"end":2952.672,"text":"那麼中國目前已與俄羅斯等60多國簽訂有刑事司法互助條約也和60多國完成了簽署引渡條約那麼我們不能排除中共施壓其他國家尤其是與中國關係密切"},{"start":2954.066,"end":2976.023,"text":"較可能配合或屈從中國亦或是對中國依賴較高或有求於中國者引渡我國人至中國受審的可能性那麼中國的長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓不但影響我國也將影響其他國家並嚴重侵害了基本人權和各國的主權更違反國際法及國際關係的基本原則"},{"start":2977.233,"end":2996.966,"text":"那麼主要的民主國家也注意到中國跨境鎮壓的行徑那麼今年8月美國國務院發布了2024年中國人權報告除了詳細記錄中國政府在國內的嚴重侵犯人權行為也對中共在海外的跨境鎮壓行動對象以及方式進行詳細的列舉"},{"start":2998.647,"end":3018.832,"text":"此外法國國內情報總局今年3月發文示警中國、俄羅斯等國發動的跨境鎮壓與企業破壞案件激增同年的2月時任加拿大外長發表聲明對40名中國籍偷渡人員從泰國被遣返回中國的表達關切"},{"start":3019.952,"end":3032.942,"text":"而英國國會在今年3月也就跨境鎮壓舉行聽證會相關人士作證指出中共擴張鎮壓行為已經威脅到英國主權那麼在外交部的應處作為方面"},{"start":3034.587,"end":3048.217,"text":"保護海外國人安全是外交部的重要責任而反制中共對台進行長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓也是本部重要的工作之一自中國2024年6月21日發布所謂陳獨二條意見本部已多次"},{"start":3053.801,"end":3081.832,"text":"訓練外館加強防範並因應中國對我國人進行跨境鎮壓或長臂管轄的可能性包括事情提高相關國家旅遊警示等那麼此外我們也會持續擴大尋求國際支持和加強與民主國家的聯繫以提升並提升國人防範意識和能力培力外館提供海外受害國人的協助並持續與國安局陸委會法務部等相關部會加強情資分享"},{"start":3082.812,"end":3107.851,"text":"與協作共同全力確保海外國人的安全中國近年來在各式場合大肆操弄法律戰認知作戰以及灰色地帶的脅迫不僅我國及國人受到影響其他國家和公民也受到可能的受到危害那麼外交部呼籲各國加強合作共同來反制中共長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓的圖謀以上進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3110.454,"end":3115.343,"text":"謝謝林部長請回接下來進行報告的是陸委會省副主委"},{"start":3125.97,"end":3148.281,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早那麼陳蒙貴委員會邀請針對中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國應處進行報告以下提出本會的說明進行指教首先中共對台反毒的法律戰配合他們的整體工作部署意圖要延伸域外的法律效力是為了他們企圖達到統一來鋪墊法理基礎"},{"start":3149.181,"end":3166.978,"text":"那麼中共對台的部署從政策宣示朝向了具體落實並且反對還有嚇指台獨是他們對台的這個戰略核心也是習近平宣稱兩個百年中華民族偉大復興中國夢的重要關鍵更是2019年提出的習五條2021年新時代黨解決台灣問題總體方略的關鍵內容"},{"start":3169.54,"end":3195.891,"text":"那麼在推進祖國統一大業堅決打擊台獨分裂勢力反對外部勢力干涉以及牢牢把握兩岸關係主動權這一些話語都是這個中共長期以來進行長臂管轄或者是企圖對我國內部來進行司法干涉的一貫的用語本會再次強調中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬中共單方面的用政治框架來矮化我國主權我們絕對不會接受"},{"start":3197.25,"end":3225.618,"text":"那麼再來提到歷來中共配合他們整體的對台戰略規劃逐步推進並且會細緻化對台灣所謂的反毒來進行法律戰主要的層次包含用憲法還有反分裂國家法作為最上層的法律框架其次搭配刑法危害國家安全罪作為法律的依據再透過比較細部的規定例如去年通過的成都二十二條來完善以法賀獨的法律體系"},{"start":3226.318,"end":3248.394,"text":"並且以懲治的名義來宣示台灣作為中國的一部分採取逐步推進統一的強制性作為建構法律的正當性也意圖要阻絕國際勢力來協助台灣那麼我們針對中共持續發布懲毒名單並且制裁的措施立案調查等等舉措來結合它內部的法令追責來擴大對台威懾和壓迫提出幾點意見"},{"start":3249.375,"end":3267.538,"text":"首先就是我們看到中共在去年發布了懲毒意見以來有一系列的懲毒相關措施包括像是開設專欄跟舉報信箱提出了所謂的台獨分子清單增列了台獨打手和幫兇同時也懸賞我軍方人員宣布對我立法委員立案調查"},{"start":3268.519,"end":3282.496,"text":"那麼中共不斷的擴大成都的對象範圍他的目標已經從我方的政要官員知名人士延伸到軍方甚至是人員的家屬還有相關聯的企業等那麼由公佈清單然後提出懸賞立案調查"},{"start":3284.198,"end":3298.553,"text":"以往是由中共的國台辦還有國安部等中央部門主動宣布相關的措施那麼現在我們發現由地方的公安局也加入配合操作具體的個案目標就是要達到寒蟬效應來威脅我民主政治的運作"},{"start":3299.674,"end":3317.367,"text":"那麼我們研判未來也有可能進一步會將成都的名單提報到國際刑警組織來發布所謂的紅色通報來進行全球協氣那麼他們會洽詢對中國友好的國家來強行違反國際法的規定來進行所謂的缺席審判等等作為"},{"start":3318.328,"end":3341.946,"text":"那麼我們要再次的強調中華民國是主權國家中共對台完全沒有管轄權無權對我人民實施任何的懲戒所謂的法律規範對我國人民毫無拘束力那麼北京當局透過懲毒之名遂行跨國鎮壓之時妄圖要營造對台具有管轄權並且獲取推進統一的假象達到分化和阻嚇台灣內部的一個效果"},{"start":3343.041,"end":3371.312,"text":"本會會針對相關的輿情適時予以駁斥並且我們也會跟外交部來交換資訊透過外交的管道呼籲民主國家共同關切絕不配合中共濫用全球邪氣的這個制度警政署還有國安的相關單位也會加強關注是否有在地協力者來從事跟蹤 脅迫等行為如果有涉及和中共黨政軍從事合法行為的話主管機關一定會依法查辦"},{"start":3372.452,"end":3388.57,"text":"那麼我們同時要持續的向國人來提醒復入的風險呼籲國人要審慎思考復入的必要性本會提供數據從去年1月1號到今年的10月底為止目前遭到中共留置盤查失聯還有限制人身自由已經高達233人"},{"start":3391.462,"end":3412.711,"text":"那其中因為宗教因素被關押的有14名一貫道有11名他們在中國大陸宣導中華傳統文化結果遭到中共以違反刑法為由加以關押到現在還沒有辦法獲釋返台那麼也有一些是在觀光景點拍照就遭到中共的公安留置盤查的"},{"start":3413.931,"end":3436.527,"text":"所以我們為了確保國人附入的人身安全風險請國人審慎要評估附入港澳的必要性並且同時也要再次的重申中國大陸膨脹他們的國安定義恣意的以懲毒之名來控制我方的這個司法管轄的範圍會對國人造成風險那麼也呼籲國人在審慎考慮附入的必要性以上報告進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3438.835,"end":3443.461,"text":"好 請副主委回座那接下來我們請法務部黃士傑市長進行報告"},{"start":3452.338,"end":3467.628,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今日奉邀列席桂園會就中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處代表本部列席報告並被質詢之檢要報告如下"},{"start":3468.869,"end":3492.234,"text":"第一 近年來中國對台整體滲透 作為越區多元除傳統情報收集 竊取機密以交流民意進行統戰 發展組織之外以擴及網路空間與法律戰及輿論戰等領域此類具系統性跨境性質不法犯新對我國國家安全 社會信任及法治秩序構成極大的威脅"},{"start":3493.427,"end":3507.918,"text":"那麼關於長臂管轄權及跨境鎮壓等樣態分析請參閱書面資料那我國執法機關因應作為呢只是解要報告如下第一我們有強化法治基礎建構相關的保護規範"},{"start":3509.759,"end":3531.189,"text":"我們在這個上一屆立法院制定了反滲透法那麼為因應境外敵對勢力對我國民主制度之威脅依照反滲透法的規定典型之滲透行為系指任何人受滲透來源之指示委託或資助而從事反滲透法第三條之第七條之不法行為者"},{"start":3531.949,"end":3554.695,"text":"例如依照反滲透法第六條的規定如果受滲透來源之指示委託或資助而犯刑法第149條至第153條等妨礙秩序等罪或即會有刑法第31條之罪等加重期刑至二分之一目的性為防制滲透來源藉機之事鼓動衝突對立造成社會動亂"},{"start":3557.477,"end":3571.827,"text":"擬拒修正國家安全法修正草案強化規範密度國人若遭境外敵對勢力吸收而參與其犯罪組織在尚未有國家安全法所規定發展組織或有刺探或泄密"},{"start":3572.347,"end":3593.443,"text":"之前的現行法制對於單純的參與組織尚未有處罰的規定為國人一旦遭吸收而參與組織可能刺激行刺密竊密之行為或配合組織侵擾破壞活動對於國家安全或社會安定已產生相當的危害現行的法制有研修之必要"},{"start":3594.184,"end":3610.006,"text":"又鑒於受外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對實體或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織 機構 團體或派遣之人所指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助之中間人"},{"start":3611.127,"end":3633.305,"text":"具有相同的違法性本部會完善國安法制避免處罰漏洞以拟據國家安全法相關條文的修正草案增訂參與組織罪明定中間人行事責任並就為大陸地區主權範圍及境外敵對勢力犯罪提高處罰規定未來完成修法當能收賀組織效二"},{"start":3636.078,"end":3654.357,"text":"深化執法動能保護國民安全檢察機關積極地偵辦國安案件近年已陸續偵破多起港籍人士在台遭威脅騷擾以及國家安全法相關案件檢察機關每年起訴國安法案件約22件起訴人數約36.8人"},{"start":3656.559,"end":3667.744,"text":"反滲透法案件由於跟選舉有關所以在111年從111年的偵辦事件起訴4人到112年偵辦事件起訴18人113年是逢選舉年所以一共偵辦了198件起訴97人114年1月18月已經偵辦了26件起訴7名檢查機關已設置國安專組或專股"},{"start":3684.017,"end":3693.707,"text":"台灣高等警察署與各警察機關並於個案偵辦中建立國安案件聯繫平台持續精進偵查技能加強偵辦的力度"},{"start":3698.306,"end":3720.845,"text":"認知戰也涉及關於刑法、選罷法、民用航空法、陸海工軍刑法及災害防救法、反送中法等等刑責警察機關秉持從嚴追溯向上溯源的態度嚴查嚴辦本部並責成調查局成立認知戰研究中心提升收嚴應處及反制認知作戰的能量加強我們的應對"},{"start":3722.779,"end":3748.331,"text":"那關於檢討機關的職能教育訓練部分在新進司法官的教育訓練部分本部司法官學院辦理國安案件的執行訓練透過課程的講解深度的座談實地的參訪讓這些學員充分了解國安案件的重要性理論及實務那麼在職的檢察官以持續辦理相關的研習的課程透過偵辦案件的分享優化查緝的量能"},{"start":3749.031,"end":3758.719,"text":"此外最高檢察所密集召集各地檢察機關首長學者法官辦理相關案件的講習以及深化國安意識及觀念精進辦案能力那麼最後"},{"start":3764.895,"end":3788.318,"text":"為了因應國際地緣政治及兩岸的局勢中國當局將會持續對我國操作法律戰以他們的反分裂法、國安法、反電信和網絡詐欺法等等來威脅我國國民藉此壓縮我國的司法管轄權為了因應這些複合性的威脅警察機關將加強反制境外敵對勢力滲透之犯罪查查工作"},{"start":3788.959,"end":3801.73,"text":"那麼持續偵辦國安案件 確保我國民主自由人權法治環境的永續發展 以上報告進行指教 謝謝謝謝次長請回 接下來進行報告由法務部調查局徐副局長"},{"start":3808.063,"end":3830.233,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就中共對台進行常備管轄劃進鎮壓及我國相關應處進行專題報告請提出報告如是一前言全國人大常委會委員長趙樂際在反分裂國家法實施20週年座談會表示中方已完善打擊台獨工作"},{"start":3830.993,"end":3857.87,"text":"法律工作箱顯將運用法治手段對台滲透打擊與中國廣設海外錦橋驛站誘捕異議人士趨勢相符對我跨境攻勢將更勝以往二 太陽級影響一 指示人員跨境騷擾收情中國借統戰滲透網路監控異議人士曾指示向香港籍歌手何韻詩潑漆抗議反送中理念"},{"start":3858.69,"end":3877.118,"text":"並收集在台藏人動態 干涉異議人士在台合法活動二 加大司法威懾行政制裁中國發布《整治台獨》二十二條通知涉台部門即以設立舉報信箱強化社會監控 運用實際判決以法賀獨公佈個資製造壓力恐嚇國人"},{"start":3881,"end":3902.237,"text":"懲戒台獨份子債入資產侵害台灣社會民防任性等方式片面對我虛構司法管轄及行政裁罰三 突破海域圍堵擴張管轄習近平113年兩會發表《海上鬥爭言論》中國及平密開展海域聯合巡航巡查作為"},{"start":3903.038,"end":3930.896,"text":"近日又在國際海事組織設常駐代表台灣擴展執法管轄權三 應處作為一 反制中共威嚇宣傳中國單方面針對我國人公佈立案通緝等作為恐嚇台灣民心本質為認知作戰我方過度論述其虛構之法律效果恐落入恐嚇威脅邏輯陷阱二 強制揭露境外勢力代理"},{"start":3931.536,"end":3954.838,"text":"我國相關立法建築與國家安全法反滲透法台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例等但無登記申報義務以制定專法或充實前開法律內容揭露中國在地協力者干涉騷擾作為三 鞏固父權全民安防工作中國公司協力實施常備管轄及跨境鎮壓"},{"start":3955.839,"end":3980.834,"text":"指示在地協力者監控收情我應發揮全民安防反制為現行安全防護工作作為要點僅為行政執行依據以完善法律授權及明確規範強制力是公私協力強化認知防禦政府應與選舉或敏感時機機先揭露中國認知戰慣用敘事模板協助國人辨識"},{"start":3981.835,"end":4005.993,"text":"我明天具事實查核多元防線量能以建構公司部門合作機制提升整體防衛韌性是結與本局近年偵辦為中共發展組織及刺收機密案件反滲透法案件竊取營業秘密案件反制中共挖角高科技人才案件將持續打擊中共滲透作為"},{"start":4006.713,"end":4031.941,"text":"共同守護台灣民主自由法治人權價值以上報告敬請自交好謝謝副局長請回那我們現在開始進行詢答一樣跟本會同仁報告我們今天兩個專報那當然大家可以自由詢答那官員回答另外因為美國川普總統在10點的時候開始進行川習會他們公告的會議時間是4個小時"},{"start":4034.042,"end":4060.501,"text":"但是會中或會後我們不曉得會不會有什麼跟台灣直接相關的訊息傳出來因為我們國家的外交部長在這裡代表國家的立場跟發言所以屆時如果外交部認為應該要及時做回應的話請隨時讓本席知道我們會提供時間讓外交部針對必要的情形做必要的回應四個小時後也許我們會議已經結束了外交部當然就可以回部去進行處理"},{"start":4061.061,"end":4076.268,"text":"所以在這件事情上屆時如果我們進行詢答那外交部認為有必要立即做回應的時候請相關同仁向本席反映我們會暫時提供一個時間讓部長在我們委員會做出"},{"start":4077.288,"end":4097.896,"text":"這一切由你們控制 由你們回應接下來我們開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右本席式會議狀況來進行處理第一位進行詢答的委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":4107.281,"end":4116.576,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林部長來 部長請委員好"},{"start":4117.78,"end":4124.366,"text":"部長好 部長今天我們要對中共對台灣進行這個常備管轄然後跨境鎮壓這個部分我們要表達嚴正的這個抗議那台灣的言論自由是不容這個跨境來做侵犯那剛剛陸委會有提到就是說像這個中共對於這個成都的這個對象的範圍是擴大然後制裁的力道也比以前強大我們也很清楚像過去的話確實都是由中共的國台辦國安法"},{"start":4144.765,"end":4167.791,"text":"國安部那等中央部門來做宣布相關的規範跟這個措施可是現在我們發現的是有地方的公安局加入了而來做這個具體的這個操作像這個沈博洋委員呢他就是在這個10月28號的時候呢是重慶市的公安局來發布這公告表示呢對沈博洋委員涉嫌分裂國家犯罪的立案來做這個"},{"start":4169.191,"end":4187.472,"text":"偵查那國台辦甚至表示說這是落實成都二十二條的具體行動必要之之舉那當然他這個就是殺雞儆猴然後呢來製造恐慌跟這個這個對立其實在去年沈博洋委員十月我記得是十月十四號的時候被列入這個台獨頑固頑固分子的清單"},{"start":4189.614,"end":4196.96,"text":"而且他那時候本席也曾經針對沈博洋委員出國可能會有一些安全上的疑慮也跟國安單位來做了一個質詢我們台上的王定宇召委其實也是被列入台獨幫國分子的清單之一你還是學長 對不對你還是沈博洋委員的學長"},{"start":4216.575,"end":4233.964,"text":"所以我們省委員員好或是說王定宇招委呢往後大家都很擔心在討論說以後他們出國的時候呢會不會呢因為中國呢他會就是說會利用跟他們交好的一些國家那是因為我們剛有提到嘛這個"},{"start":4236.346,"end":4253.545,"text":"我記得剛剛事業外交部有提到就是說中國他有跟這個俄羅斯等60多個國家簽訂了刑事司法互助的條約也跟60個國家簽訂這個引渡條約所以我們都很擔心列入這個名單的我們的這些委員們或者是說"},{"start":4254.206,"end":4255.988,"text":"他們所謂的台獨分子以後到這些國家去的時候我們會很擔心他們會被這些國家引渡到中國去受審其實除了這個之外其實中國在境外有設置井橋事務海外服務站"},{"start":4270.808,"end":4280.376,"text":"那這些他們都是以這個服務戰作為這個幌子實施這個監控那甚至像非洲中南美洲有一些國家他們甚至呢跟這些國家就是說我幫你來訓練當地的這個執法人員甚至就是利用這個方式來拓展他們國際執法的這個合作所以像這類的話"},{"start":4288.203,"end":4304.562,"text":"那是不是會提高我們國人到海外甚至會被送中的風險所以我想了解一下說萬一發生這種事情的話我們有沒有什麼其他的制衡的方式因為像之前的話像中國中國曾經就跟摩洛哥政府配合將維吾爾族的異分子愛上"},{"start":4307.165,"end":4311.927,"text":"於這個摩洛哥要轉機的時候呢就將他逮捕說要求送回中國送聖當然後來這個愛上並沒有成功送回中國是因為聯合國的這一個人權專家的介入所以後來他後來是被釋放了可是如果類似像沈博洋委員也好王廷宇 莊委也好如果他們到國外遇到這種狀況的話我們有哪一些具體可以抗衡的一些手段呢"},{"start":4332.743,"end":4361.703,"text":"報告委員 中共是靠鬥爭起家它是無所不用其極所以我們當然在面對這個中共的長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓我們當然全力的來做好 比如說宣導然後去讓我們的外管能夠協助國人如果發生一些緊急的情況另外跟友好國家之間也能夠一起來分享情誌以外做好因應"},{"start":4362.643,"end":4375.968,"text":"那麼其實他們針對個人在進行所謂的這個對台灣啦 當然在國外其實這些長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓都有作用力跟反作用力"},{"start":4377.214,"end":4402.719,"text":"這個也證實了中共就是它的本質所以我想全世界包括美國啦甚至像法國都曾經發生過這些情形之後他們也有一些因應但是我們國人因為有些出入在兩岸之間或者說到了中共比較能夠掌控的像港澳或他所謂的他的這個協力的這些國家那我們就是做好事前事終跟事後"},{"start":4403.939,"end":4418.408,"text":"各種的這個因應那我也要特別利用這個機會指出其實中共是從20年前在通過反分裂法的時候就啟動了三戰這三戰是所謂的混合戰是交互在運用就法律戰"},{"start":4420.05,"end":4432.459,"text":"輿論戰跟心理戰而這個最後的這個心理戰其實他就是想不戰而屈人之兵他企圖造成了一種紅色的恐怖那讓你人人自危你就會有一個自我檢查而且把這個戰場"},{"start":4435.561,"end":4449.689,"text":"打到對方的 比如說台灣的內部所以我們在因應上是必須要全面性的除了是法律戰涉及到的這些之外其實它有背後更深層的一種混合戰在支撐它對台的鬥爭"},{"start":4452.276,"end":4474.157,"text":"市部長剛剛有提到我們請友好國家要特別留意我們會跟他們有很多的互動換言之像王委員或是沈博洋委員他們也只能到友好國家去因為像現在的話我們知道像他的審讀22條裡面他是可以用缺席審查"},{"start":4474.997,"end":4477.999,"text":"就是說他們會經過缺席審查然後再來的話就是可能就會通報這個國際刑警組織發布紅色通緝令他們大概的這個方向是這麼走嘛對不對以後沈博耀委會面對這一連串的這個局面嗎"},{"start":4493.949,"end":4505.494,"text":"先審查那再來呢因為他現在已經立案偵查了嘛偵查當然就是開始要做審查審查之後呢罪名確立之後就是要通報國際刑警組織嘛再來就是通報這個紅色通緝令嘛是會來會去這樣子的走向嗎"},{"start":4509.736,"end":4530.595,"text":"因為中共對於所謂的長臂寡角跨境世界包括自己的中國人包括台灣人也包括其他國家的人所以這種威脅是引起全世界大家都是認為是一個威權擴張那當然我們自己要做好防範萬一發生的時候也要營救"},{"start":4531.876,"end":4549.373,"text":"可是我們怎麼樣去避免以及發生的時候去應處那我要特別提到的說它不是單純的法律戰它是一個所謂的三戰合一的混合戰那我們在因應的時候也必須全面性來看待它因為它這個東西想不戰而屈人執兵想要從內部瓦解我們"},{"start":4550.134,"end":4562.901,"text":"那造成人人自危那至於說所謂缺席審判啦然後所謂的這個不受時效追溯時效的限制啦其實這個是20年來他們逐步在鋪陳那只是他現在國力比較強聲量比較大那我們自己當然政府該做的 人民該做的以及跟國際之間的合作還有我們之間跨部會單位之間的協調包括資訊的分享 預警"},{"start":4577.429,"end":4588.719,"text":"以及發生之後的一些包括這些旅遊警戒這個都是做到我們可以說可是因為它有涉及到它的引渡條約或者司法互助條約那是不是因為這樣子送到所謂的國際的所謂的這些包括這些刑事組織"},{"start":4597.727,"end":4620.039,"text":"這個當然我們會去因應那也不會讓他要如何因應我們不斷地在宣導然後也跟友好國家其實在不斷地針對這個東西交流甚至我們包括透過很多的機制在進行所以台灣不會孤單的這個因應不是只針對台灣針對台灣人 中國人跟各國的人他都可能選擇性地適用"},{"start":4621.46,"end":4642.288,"text":"只是說因為我們在國際上跟中國因為有這些涉及到的他對我們的這種直接的鎖定特定的人那這個我們也不能夠就是當作只是一個點名但是我意思說怎麼去做好防範如果發生的時候是妥善因應但是這個事件我剛剛講有作用力就有反作用力"},{"start":4644.209,"end":4657.58,"text":"這個對中共也沒有好處啦我是說純粹在國際上來講大家這個就是一個迫害這個既有以規則為基礎的國際秩序的一個麻煩製造者嘛那我們在這方面我們也必須要宣傳讓國際共同來因應"},{"start":4660.06,"end":4688.321,"text":"是 看起來現在我們沈博洋委員是一個很大的這個目標那部長你會不會就是說請跟沈博洋委員就是建議就是說有哪些國家不建議他去哪些國家是OK會嗎因為我現在想像中國的話它在非洲也好中南美洲甚至東南亞他們其實都很多這方面的這些互動就是說像設立這個海外警察站服務站等等或是有司法互助這些國家我們會建議列入這些列入這個"},{"start":4689.782,"end":4699.231,"text":"清單的這些我們說受清算者好了會不會給予他們一份名單就是說哪些國家最好是不要去哪些國家建議其實是說那個是安全的我們會有這種動作嗎有 我剛剛講不同層次啦就個人的層次當然因為我們是"},{"start":4706.357,"end":4719.995,"text":"一個民主自由人權的國家個人的旅行我們沒有辦法完全限制可是被點名或是有可能會被這個所謂長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的對象那我們怎麼樣做好宣導跟"},{"start":4722.037,"end":4736.952,"text":"因應的這個準備這一個政治人物他有他的判斷跟智慧這個我們也必須要跟他做好這個之間怎麼樣去保護他之外其實他本身的判斷跟應處是非常重要的"},{"start":4737.583,"end":4765.18,"text":"OK 好 那時間的關係因為我們也看到就是說中國對於台灣的這個壓力是給予的壓力是越來越大那當然我剛剛有看到很多單位相關的國安單位都有提到說其實我們有很多國安法還需要更加完善的這個地方我想這個行政單位跟立法單位其實應該要共同來做努力以維護台灣的這個尊嚴也好或者是說我們這些台灣人的這個在海外跟國內的這個安全"},{"start":4765.64,"end":4790.586,"text":"OK 好 以上謝謝我跟委員補充一下 我們有通電或訓練外館有跟各種的發生的情境或樣貌做好我們的標準作業程序所以這個範本都有發到各個外館我們111個外館 這個是屬於在國外那當然兩岸之間有陸委會或其他的單位另外一個我想國連也都知道我們自己最清楚可能面對的情形的時候"},{"start":4791.246,"end":4805.191,"text":"我想這個對兩岸交流是很大的一個破壞某種程度違邦不居亂邦不入中國讓他自決於世界因為到了中國受中國統治以外在中國以外中國也想統治"},{"start":4806.375,"end":4830.101,"text":"這一種想要破壞國際的這個秩序其實已經引起全世界的一個共同要去面對跟因應那我也相信這個民主的開放社會最後還是會戰勝這種想要透過極權手段到海外去控制甚至去所謂的施以法律上的這種制裁的這種邪惡政權"},{"start":4834.123,"end":4856.577,"text":"謝謝 羅美玲委員 部長請回這個 羅委員不用擔心我跟沈博洋委員我們前兩個禮拜週末都出國開會我們也都好好坐飛機回來了所以中國想做的事情我們要好好應處但是也不用被他嚇到啦 不好啦好 我已經被通緝 也不是通緝 被警告三次了好 接下來進行詢問委員 陳俊宇委員"},{"start":4866.411,"end":4892.767,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請佳榮部長林部長請部長早委員早部長 我們這幾天大家都在關心這個川習會那後續的這個APEC會議發展的走向我們代表團在本週二28號已經提前三天抵達韓國了那也比"},{"start":4893.447,"end":4920.196,"text":"以往更早相對來說我們也爭取更多的時間依照我們代表團所透露只要有可能的話都會盡量安排相關的會面我想先請教部長就是在明天的峰會正式登場之前我們的代表團是否有機會可以順利安排到雙邊的會議或是有其他非正式的會面的機會"},{"start":4921.388,"end":4948.449,"text":"是 在就是領袖代表方面當然已經有跟一些國家這個討論之後有安排那因為這個也涉及到各方的這個考量我們等這個見面之後自然就會跟這個社會來做報告那至於在會場上比較非正式也有很多的機會可以交談"},{"start":4950.51,"end":4962.635,"text":"我們也有跟一些國家也有先溝通非正式的方式所以除了正式的雙邊的會談以外也有非正式的交談"},{"start":4964.832,"end":4990.698,"text":"那在這個報導當中我們也看到了我們今年台灣這邊也有積極在爭取能夠參與這個撰稿會議並且預計能夠達成五項的這個文件的發言相信我們在這個會議當中能夠和其他的這個經濟體平等的提出文字的建議那來表達我們台灣的立場並且能夠有機會來參與協商等等"},{"start":4993.078,"end":5016.083,"text":"那在此我還是請教部長是否我們針對這個部分能夠透露的部分我們在什麼樣的這個議題當中有機會可以提出發言並且能夠發揮比較大的一個影響力是 報告委員因為APEC基本上是採取共識決那我們當然有平等參與的權利之外也有一定的影響力"},{"start":5017.163,"end":5022.388,"text":"所以對於今年的主題我們都有準備包括倡議另外就是我們的領袖代表也會有發言所以這個部分就是剛剛講的五大議題方面那因為今年特別重視AI就是數位科技的應用"},{"start":5036.901,"end":5039.705,"text":"我們也認為台灣在這方面可以貢獻所以也有針對提出一個未來跟健康照護有關的倡議所以我們不只是去參與我們也可以在這裡面倡議"},{"start":5056.948,"end":5072.834,"text":"那部長前幾天我們也看到這個川普總統他去訪問日本那並且與這個高市首相互動非常的熱絡那高市首相也表示他們在會談期間確認台海平和平穩定的"},{"start":5073.914,"end":5097.211,"text":"一個重要性那高市首相不但要延續先前友台的一個立場在他上任至今也接連在這個日本東協峰會等重要的國際場合呼籲國際要重視台海的一個和平穩定對此我想請教部長我們在這個APE期間有沒有這個信心能夠和高市首相安排到這個雙邊會談來討論"},{"start":5100.474,"end":5129.234,"text":"我們與日本之間的這個經濟安全合作的可能有 我們在安排中那不管是這個川習會還是這個APEC會議後續的發展我們還是希望說我們這個外交部這邊能夠緊密的來掌握相關的訊息那後續我們如果有新的訊息再和部長來做一個討論那部長您先請回那接續我們邀請這個省副主委"},{"start":5138.312,"end":5162.563,"text":"副主委早就這個中共的資訊戰還有宣傳戰來請教我們副主委我們陸委會在這個報告當中提到中方需要藉由這個川習會來經營美中的關係研判中方將與這個川習會重申對台的一個立場並且藉機加大對台宣傳的一個操作"},{"start":5164.485,"end":5192.45,"text":"我們在這個近期也看到這個有一連串的一個公式包括中國的一個三個八十週那也設立了一個台灣光復紀念日那王滬寧在談話當中也提到統一後有七個更好那還有一個是新華社署名中台文的一個作者連續發表這個促統的相關文章"},{"start":5193.629,"end":5220.51,"text":"他們不斷的堆疊出這麼多這個打擊台灣的言論或是在這個十五五的這個規劃建議當中提出要打擊這個台獨牢牢把握這個兩岸的一個關係他想要主導這個想要這個主導權那我想請教這個副主委就是對於中共在這個川習會前密集對台的一個文攻我們這邊有沒有觀察到"},{"start":5221.41,"end":5242.297,"text":"和中共敘事相同的一個異常帳號有在增加的一個現象另外這個川習會還有APEC會議之後中方會不會有更多的這個以美論或是棄台論的一個操作還是會持續觸統或是打擊台獨作為他們主要的一個宣傳 有沒有可能"},{"start":5242.797,"end":5262.455,"text":"是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先您剛提到的就是關於在網路上面有沒有出現異常帳號來進一步的來去渲染相關的這個以美論 棄台論那麼我們會跟這個國安單位特別是國安會還有國安局這邊來密切的在輿情上面來去做關注那這邊跟委員報告確實是有異常的這個現象"},{"start":5263.075,"end":5280.569,"text":"那我們也關注到他們也開始在利用一些比如說美國比較親中的一些學者啦智庫啦等等去散播一些似是而非的言論然後中方再去擴大這樣子的言論的一個渲染等於就是說利用美國人的嘴來說出中國人想要的這個東西利用美國親中的學者"},{"start":5281.309,"end":5309.662,"text":"那我們也有關注到像這樣子的這個現象在過往也譬如說在那個Foreign Affairs還有最近大家有關注到Times的這一篇那麼在網路上面來說確實都有一些異常的這個帳號然後會刻意的來加大渲染那渲染的主題大概還包含了像是剛剛您所提到的像以美論棄台論等等然後並且會框稱說你看在川習會的時候已經談到了所謂的這個兩岸同屬一中啦或者是不支持台獨啦但事實上這個有可能只是在會談的過程中"},{"start":5311.823,"end":5329.171,"text":"習近平提出來但是川普可能不見得會有表態或者是表達不同意但他們可能就會利用這樣子的一個這個去頭去尾的這樣子的方式然後來來進行一個輿論的這個渲染所以我們也會針對這樣的這個情況因為待會就要舉行川習會會不會真的有這樣子這個情形我們都會加以密註好"},{"start":5330.014,"end":5355.004,"text":"那另外就想針對這個宗教統戰的部分來就叫我們副主委中共滲透我國的這個宗教活動已經行之有年但是在民間這個研究團體團隊指出在去年大概有一萬六千人附中參與這個宗教交流的一個活動那其中有超過一半都是在這個福建省來舉行了"},{"start":5356.364,"end":5371.198,"text":"我們陸委會也認為隱藏的黑數應該遠遠不止這些我想請教副主委我們觀察到近期中共對於宗教統戰他的做法是怎麼樣會有什麼樣的特徵或是論述"},{"start":5372.239,"end":5389.565,"text":"我們是否能夠有什麼方式來反制是 非常謝謝委員的這個指教那首先就是宗教統戰確實是我們不斷來提醒國人應該要注意到的那我們首先還是要表達政府的立場健康有序的各樣的這個交流我們都會予以尊重並且予以鼓勵"},{"start":5390.365,"end":5408.218,"text":"那在宗教統戰在宗教交流的這一塊來講我們認為如果雙方是針對宗教的教義的延期或者是針對儀軌的這樣子的一種交流的話我們基本上都是非常的鼓勵而且會協助主動協助給予協助但比較遺憾的是我們看到在雙方進行宗教交流的時候往往"},{"start":5408.798,"end":5425.958,"text":"中方就會放進了一些統戰的元素比如說他會特別去強調這個所謂的兩岸同屬一中把媽祖形容為所謂的中國神用這樣的這個方式那甚至是去渲染這個包含像是到中國去進行宗教交流就是回家然後兩岸同屬一中兩岸同跟同源"},{"start":5427.82,"end":5454.071,"text":"這樣子的一些輿論跟這樣子的一種敘述都會在宗教交流的過程中不斷的出現都會不斷的這個出現彷彿是要來進行一種輿論上面的一種洗腦那我們近期還關注到特別的有趣的這個現象也跟委員做一個分享那我們也發現宗教交流以外那他們甚至會開始來擴張一些所謂的產業鏈譬如說在重要的這個宗教的景點啦他們就會來開始有一些這個文旅啦觀光的這樣子的套裝形成"},{"start":5454.691,"end":5482.198,"text":"那在這個套裝行程的過程中甚至也是會夾雜了一些去宣傳中國好棒棒啦或者紅色產業供應鏈等等的這樣子的一些敘事更甚至於有趣的來了他甚至會在進行宗教交流的過程中邀請我們的年輕人去然後來嘗試來進行姻緣配對這非常的妙進行姻緣配對那做這樣子的一種可能要透過心靈融合啦或者是來進行一種人緣上面的這樣子的一種統戰的作為這個我們都會後續都會持續的密鑄"},{"start":5483.038,"end":5507.993,"text":"好那中國這個國家宗教事務局在上個月他公布一個宗教教職人員網路行為規範那在最後他還聲稱台灣的宗教教職人員也參照本這個規範來執行那我想請教就像這種片面納管我國宗教教職人員的做法是不是也一樣隱含著帶有這個長臂管轄的一個企圖他實際上"},{"start":5509.537,"end":5526.035,"text":"的這個效果又是什麼這部分副主委是不是簡單說明一下是 謝謝 謝謝委員那確實剛剛您所提到這個長臂管轄用法律這也是我們今天沈伯陽委員現在也到了就是類似的這樣子的一個情況的一樣的這個來進行各式各樣的這個操作在宗教也不放過"},{"start":5526.696,"end":5544.385,"text":"那我們有特別注意到9月15號公布的這個宗教教職人員網絡行為規範裡面喔那在第二條的地方有提到宗教的網絡行為要接受政府監管是要接受政府監管還有社會監管這是非常誇張的事情然後那另外第九條裡面甚至還提到了說不能進行民族分裂"},{"start":5544.885,"end":5570.611,"text":"不能進行民族分裂所以我們會在這個議題上面來講會特別的提醒國人在宗教交流的過程中應該還是要注意人身安全然後避免會涉入到這個人身的這個風險來進行國人的這個提醒跟提示那另外針對反制的這個部分來講的話我們也會特別提醒這個中方那麼如果濫家的利用宗教交流來遂行統戰的話那麼未來他們到台灣來進行宗教交流的話我們大概"},{"start":5571.011,"end":5590.027,"text":"也會有相對應的一些這個管理跟作為比如說我們也會要求他們的行程必須要相對的單純或者是他們的團體的成員如果裡面有涉及到台辦系統統戰系統的話而不是宗教人員的話那麼像這樣子的情況我們也會特別的來予以提醒不應該有這樣的情況的出現好"},{"start":5591.127,"end":5618.464,"text":"我們台灣的民間信仰文化盛行政府在處理上的尺度應該要小心拿捏在合理的適度情況之下同時能夠防範中共的假交流 真統戰的目的對於相關審核的機制我們更加精進的話這部分我要請我們陸委會能夠持續關心也避免中共對我長臂管轄的手段的操作"},{"start":5619.184,"end":5626.828,"text":"好 以上謝謝謝謝副主委 謝謝俊宇委員接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席首先請陸委會"},{"start":5652.489,"end":5662.466,"text":"文昌副主委本席要請教一個有關我們台灣自己執法的問題中國的他用政治"},{"start":5663.516,"end":5682.638,"text":"去處理法律他用違反國際的不管是公約或者法律的架構去遂行他的政治意志我們待會再討論但我們在我們的境內發生的事情我們國家有權處理的國人都關心我們處理的進度在四月份五月份有一位在華碩工會"},{"start":5684.827,"end":5705.148,"text":"擔任職務的人叫做錢立他是中國籍配偶他不僅在公司用中華人民共和國的法律一條一條去檢視這家公司的執行長同仁 長官 基層幹部而且還把他們一個一個向中國舉報"},{"start":5706.77,"end":5715.037,"text":"另外他也檢舉一般人說你違反中華人民共和國什麼法什麼法什麼法等到有一天同意之後通通要把你抓起來"},{"start":5716.445,"end":5744.267,"text":"然後呢他還成立了一個解放軍的粉磚鼓吹武統武統什麼意思啊武統就是用軍事力量屠殺我國的軍民百姓那這一個四月份五月份媒體大量報導之後我個人本席還有我知道媒體也有都向你們進行了檢舉那現在很多國人關心說那這個事情到最後啞啞的情形我們知道了他現在中國那邊悔不當初啊中國的公安才不理你半夜去敲門踹他"},{"start":5745.808,"end":5752.373,"text":"所以台灣跟中國哪邊民主 哪邊法治哪邊自由 哪邊人權秋恩雅雅就知道了他現在想盡辦法要回來那這個潛力"},{"start":5756.209,"end":5778.988,"text":"到底陸委會這邊是沒有處理還是已經處理沒有揭露但我可以接受在不影響無辜第三方的情形下請你適度的讓國人知道這個案子目前的進度是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先關於前例這案確實我們有跟相關的部會進行多次的討論然後希望能夠在適當的處理了沒有處理了先跟委員報告在什麼時候處理的什麼時候"},{"start":5780.309,"end":5803.074,"text":"我們在8月25號的時候那現在處理的這個情況我們在8月25號已經請移民署廢止了這個前女友她的這個台灣身份跟戶籍然後回到拘留的狀態目前的情況是這樣所以這一位前姓女子 前例用中華人民共和國的法律在我們國家的境內恐嚇中華民國的公民"},{"start":5804.113,"end":5828.916,"text":"恐嚇上班公司的老闆說你這個言行你看某某電視台他用他看哪一家電視台說他要懲治台獨欸用思想檢查他還在電梯裡面張貼中國法律對他還在電梯貼這幾家電視台不能看這幾家報紙你看了齁那幾家報紙電視台現在都坐在那邊啊所以看了他們齁就要檢舉欸要照中方人說我把你通通抓起來啊通通要關啊有的還要槍斃欸"},{"start":5830.523,"end":5854.545,"text":"他還寫了一千個字的文章貼在那邊啊這你都知道嘛所以今天你們第一次公開揭露這位錢麗在8月25號被剝奪中華民國公民身份然後我們也在8月28號的時候已經辦妥了他的廢紙登記他的戶籍的這個部分也已經辦妥了你們應該叫中國他們通過的他們叫情報法還是什麼法"},{"start":5855.666,"end":5875.181,"text":"法律裡面明定中華人民共和國的公民有協助中國政權也就是中共進行相關勤工作業法律規定喔你作為一個中華人民共和國的國民公民如果你不配合中共政府進行情報工作的話是違反他們法律是要抓去關的"},{"start":5876.618,"end":5899.623,"text":"也就是這樣子所以我們在台灣我們不管擔任公職我們參與選舉我們才會要求你不能有專從國籍美國籍不行日本籍不行對台灣充滿敵意的中國籍當然也不行而潛力這個就最典型所以你這個潛力被剝奪了國籍這是我們國家用正確的使用法律剝奪中華民國國籍的第幾個應該是首例"},{"start":5903.581,"end":5926.788,"text":"其實是已經有好幾位了有好幾位了嘛我覺得為什麼要揭露你知道嗎不教而殺未知虐我們要讓他們知道在台灣移民進來我們都歡迎都是我們台灣的一份子我們對於任何國家越南的新住民印尼的新住民歐美各國包含中國進來的就是我們同胞但是如果有哪些法律"},{"start":5927.941,"end":5957.201,"text":"踩到了你來這個國家不是為了愛這個國家是為了消滅這個國家我們就可以剝奪你的國籍潛力就是一個好的例子所以8月25號潛力依照中華民國法律已經剝奪他中華民國國籍OK好那這個我覺得應該讓國人知道你們是有做有處理而且如果按照5月份檢舉到825其實不能算慢因為你們還要看證據還要調查還要給對方我們台灣總不像中國中國你拿張白紙就可以消失三個月"},{"start":5958.021,"end":5986.976,"text":"對不對 揭露那個武漢肺炎那個醫生死不瞑目台灣不是我們還要給你答辯的機會根據證據我們用我們的文明的方式執法也足以證明台灣跟中國是不一樣的國度不一樣的體制好 那你先請回接下來我要請教國安局你邊走邊聽我昨天有問局長有關宮古航庫KYC這個命題昨天蔡局長一直告訴我這是個案這是個案我昨天幫你們查出來了"},{"start":5987.816,"end":5993.164,"text":"台印人壽回報粉飾太平不是個案不是個案"},{"start":5994.124,"end":6017.58,"text":"我這邊有當事人簽名的證詞也就是說我中國他用政治的理由你今天如果是真的詐欺搶奪竊盜我沒話講 刑事犯罪用政治的理由不符合中共的思想檢查就給你 包括我們的國軍國軍做了什麼事國軍保護我們2300萬的居民同胞他就給你通緝"},{"start":6019.493,"end":6047.531,"text":"資通電軍我們的那個軍情局我們的政戰局的同仁我們這些國軍他就通緝他然後這些同仁去銀行辦理相關業務的時候被KYC也就是Know Your Customer的資料庫跳出警示帳戶那這一個事情其實我們接續我昨天的詢問就是說這不是個案是我們外購的資料庫染紅了他也不是個案"},{"start":6048.655,"end":6067.003,"text":"是基層台銀人壽回報的粉飾太平金管會昨天我了解起來他們回溯回去 要求台銀人壽台銀人壽是承辦我們軍保的行庫我們軍人的保險都在那邊你拿中華人民共和國通緝我們國軍的東西來進行刁難所以"},{"start":6071.584,"end":6086.655,"text":"我這邊有列出來 你仔細看各行庫所使用的外購的KYC資料庫WordCheck Dojons LNRS Files還有Patriot Officer這個都是我們各行庫 有的會買兩個 有的會買一個然後臨櫃的時候 臨櫃人員說你要辦貸款 你要更改名字"},{"start":6094.281,"end":6120.143,"text":"稍後一下請你提供身份證號碼姓名他就會輸入他就會請二線人員不是靈櫃靈櫃叫一線會請二線人員呢他就會進去查查的時候會有四類一個叫國內外制裁名單第二個是金融機關列管名單第三個現任或前任政治人物其實我這覺得有點但政治人物竟然放在這裡面我們以後去貸款都有點困難好再來第四個涉及負面新聞等等"},{"start":6121.531,"end":6145.296,"text":"結果中國的 因為台銀 像台銀買的那wall check裡面是把新華網啦 中國相關的資料庫公安公佈的什麼通緝資料wall check裡面有涵蓋所以他一勾雞 一查就會跑出來就會產生他們在金融機構面對的困難我覺得到目前為止我不願意苛責金融機構還是那句話 不教而殺為之虐他就買了國外的資料庫啊"},{"start":6146.291,"end":6168.783,"text":"就一查的時候跑出來紅色的他就告訴你你貸款可能有困難啊就間接了變成我們國家的金融行庫在執行中共的紅色的不合理的政治的干預那我們國安局下一步要怎麼做他們現在個別銀行用白單就把它處理掉我覺得這不對應該回到制度處理你們有什麼進度"},{"start":6170.287,"end":6185.419,"text":"跟委員報告那個我航庫採用的KYC資料庫應該直接排除中方惡意制裁的名單怎麼排除 它是外購的這些都國外的資料庫那國安部的部分 國安部"},{"start":6186.139,"end":6211.437,"text":"個案部分國安部已經在處理那我相信委員你之前也有召開過協調會那後續如果有需要的話本局會協助因為我聽起來你沒有掌握到狀況我告訴你下禮拜金管會會邀請國內所有的金融行庫包含外商以及受險公司進行協調因為這件事情絕對不容許發生怎麼可以讓我們的金融行庫"},{"start":6212.628,"end":6227.118,"text":"用中共的資料去檢視我們國軍這不對所以下週金管會會邀請所有的金融行庫受險公司包含外商在台的來就這個KYC的資料庫建立一個"},{"start":6228.198,"end":6256.931,"text":"處理的機制那我請國安局多用點心了解一下給他們建議可以學那個道瓊啊道瓊他可以勾姬可以勾姬排除中國資料庫但是因為在中國確實還有一些詐騙洗錢那個我覺得納入無可厚非就是一般的刑事犯罪所以怎麼樣去用機制去確保這一個KYC不是執行中共的政治紅色統治常被管轄而是執行合理的KYC"},{"start":6257.671,"end":6277.331,"text":"我想這個國安局或法務部應該用點心思這樣好不好好 跟委員最後再報告一下確實銀行局在下午有邀請銀行工會跟業者來召開他們要求向第一線審查的人員要加強宣導那使用KCY資料庫的時候不可加中方惡意自查的名單納入"},{"start":6279.212,"end":6290.986,"text":"查核項目我們有掌握好我等著看下禮拜下禮拜他們建立的機制是什麼我希望是用機制而不是用個個案個案的白單這個我們台灣那麼進步了不要用這樣來處理好不好好謝謝副局長謝謝謝謝副局長謝謝定宇委員"},{"start":6306.977,"end":6326.78,"text":"好 我們接下來進行詢問委員 陳冠廷委員你好 我們請外交部部長來 林部長請"},{"start":6333.499,"end":6358.721,"text":"委員好部長好 部長今年舉行的APEC能源部長會議聯合聲明的時候他已經明確的把海底電纜納入人員韌性的版圖裡面當時的各個經濟體他有特別強盜為了要加強電力系統的彈性韌性跟穩定性現代化的電網基礎設施包含儲能系統 微電網還有海底電纜"},{"start":6359.702,"end":6387.218,"text":"那你也在週二的台歐海底電纜安全合作論壇上面你有宣布啟動國際海底電纜風險管理倡議那我要強調的是從水下的設施到通訊到電力到油電管輸線它是三大命脈第一個是我們的資料第二個是我們的電力然後第三個就是我們資本運期的三大動脈只要任何一處受損就有可能會發引發是跨境型的斷線斷電也有可能會斷電"},{"start":6388.579,"end":6409.738,"text":"所以這一次APEC的能源認訊路線跟我國提出的這個倡議其實是前後呼應彼此加成那前者是設定了區域層級的政策方向跟合作框架那後面我們是有實作面的風險的緩解那情勢共享制度改革等等所以我必須要特別這個對外交部"},{"start":6410.399,"end":6435.046,"text":"推動科技安全外交就是你是有實質內容的外交我是感到是非常的滿意我希望可以做更多這一次我們在訪問日本的時候基本上我們也都有特別提到這些相關的安全議題海底電纜的安全議題我也感受到我們駐日辦事處的同仁他們是用系統面就是說這些專業的外交官不是不僅僅是以個人因為個人是不可以大於系統的"},{"start":6435.706,"end":6462.516,"text":"所以包含這些專業的官僚跟專業的外交官基本上他們的這種網絡都非常的綿密那特別在這些相關的議題上面也有很好的掌握這一點我還是必須要特別的來表示這個相關的謝意好 那我今天想要請教的是在我們沒有辦法主辦類似像其實也不只是APEC那其實很多的重要的國際論壇那我們是要用什麼樣的方式把重要的議題"},{"start":6464.159,"end":6491.27,"text":"讓他們能夠在會議當中來去被引入進去部長可不可以簡單講一下報告委員除了雙邊的交流合作我們在國際特別是多邊的機制上面比如我們有GCTF今年是第十年目前有五個完整的會員國就是全球合作訓練倡議這個是很好的平台現在已經在全球"},{"start":6492.01,"end":6516.858,"text":"台灣 美國 日本 澳大利亞以外還去年加了加拿大那歐洲現在也有很多所謂的Franchise就是衍生的這個參與國家那剛剛講就是我們在倡議這個所謂的國際海欄的風險管理這個議題就是類似因為台灣是本身也是受害者那我們又位居在印太第一島鏈其實是最重要的通訊 電"},{"start":6520.6,"end":6543.329,"text":"傳輸都是很多是透過電纜所以這個都不是我們單獨的面對的挑戰而是區域性甚至全球性的一體特別是歐洲自從這個破落地海這邊從這幾年發生的被所謂暗船破壞或所謂的這種灰色地帶的侵擾越來越多"},{"start":6544.369,"end":6548.412,"text":"所以跟我們可以說是同樣面對這樣的威脅那這些國家集合起來特別是透過國會議員尤其是歐洲議員他們也可以一起在他們的國家來做推動所以這個是我們找到的議題另外就是像災害的防救"},{"start":6562.489,"end":6568.633,"text":"我們在這方面包括我們的消防署所衍生的我們全社會防禦任性每個國家現在都遇到類似的問題特別是在我們這個第一島鏈我們也用這樣的議題做平台去結合很多國家也通過了一些倡議包括國會的決議所以我們這次提出所謂的四大目標風險降低 資訊共享 制度改革和知識建構"},{"start":6592.829,"end":6604.378,"text":"歐洲議會他們就是歐盟的執委會也有通過一個有關於海嵐的倡議那我們跟他對接然後一起來做跨區的合作跟推動"},{"start":6605.759,"end":6623.894,"text":"非常謝謝部長日本也是一個重點日本重點我們接下來談到日本剛好我們訪日的時候是川普總統他訪日本也跟高市總理有簽署協議來去反制中國系統的武器化跟他的這些特殊管制"},{"start":6624.588,"end":6642.748,"text":"那他們為了要打造相關的供應鏈民主供應鏈他們是聯手去補這個缺口鎖定的是磁鐵 電池還有催化劇跟光學材料等衍生性的產品他是希望說打算動員政府與私部門的這個支持透過政策貿易來協同合作那這次訪日我們可以"},{"start":6643.268,"end":6664.175,"text":"感受到整個日本的對台灣的友善那特別是過去是以這個民主的價值但是現在不是只以民主的價值就如同我們剛才一直強調的它是以實質導向以經濟導向貿易導向科技導向那也符合部長你講的這個全方位對這種外交實質的外交"},{"start":6664.975,"end":6684.662,"text":"所以說我們必須要好好的利用這一個機會跟日本來確保說我們的供應鏈上面特別是在稀土遇到它可能的武器化的話我們是有機會來去參與它這樣子的合作架構剛才部長有提到的幾個合作框架下我是希望說我們能夠主動"},{"start":6685.882,"end":6705.379,"text":"主動 主動跟日方來討論那既然有這個美日的框架那台灣的角色可以是什麼部長可不可以簡單來回應一下是 陳委員所講因為台日其實臨接的國家那不只是在剛講通訊還有這個防災其實在能源上也是密切相關"},{"start":6706.46,"end":6723.227,"text":"所以我們像我們投資或採購在阿拉斯加的這個天然氣其實它不只是一個經濟議題它也是一個安全議題那我們台日之間很多這方面的合作的項目"},{"start":6724.027,"end":6730.532,"text":"透過不管是我們雙邊之間或多邊的來進行現在高市掃描首相他在先前就已經在自民黨內有很多的倡議現在他當首相當然我們也希望台日之間這個可以變成政府之間一起來推動包括去年石破茂首相到這個秘魯的APEC的時候跟我們領袖代表林信義這個執政也登對所謂的"},{"start":6753.987,"end":6781.981,"text":"災害的一個處理希望台日來合作我覺得這個確實是對雙方面都是有關那是互惠的這些議題我們找出來讓我們的總和外交不只是談這個理念相近的這些價值還是夠談到具體的安全還有經濟上面的這一些合作甚至是我們講全社會防禦任性的這個空間是非常的大"},{"start":6783.328,"end":6801.489,"text":"尤其是我們的無人機航太半導體產業它是高度依賴這些稀土的所以我想最近有南非的事件我們也可以理解到南非它自己也有類似半威脅的說法它是說它強調自己是重要稀有金屬的供應國"},{"start":6802.39,"end":6817.467,"text":"所以說它也有意升級為高科技製造鏈的關鍵節點所以說我們雖然我們也是重要的這個關鍵國家之一但是提供這些物資資源的這些自然資源的這些國家有沒有可能"},{"start":6818.38,"end":6834.981,"text":"會跟中國來做一個協調那導致我們在供應鏈的地緣政治有風險這個部分我就簡單跟部長希望說跟經濟部一定要有一個跨部會的協調機制來去了解一下他們的政策動向我跟委員馬上補充一下在就是稀土議題"},{"start":6836.483,"end":6851.613,"text":"因為這涉及到所謂的供應的安全尤其是我們要打造非紅的民主供應鏈是一個信賴的供應鏈裡面在稀土上面我們也有我本身也有發言那就是除了"},{"start":6853.554,"end":6875.543,"text":"呼應這個川普政府的倡議這個進行稀土供應鏈的合作之外我們也在積極的參與希望台灣也能夠我想這個是助人也助己對我們在半導體供應鏈上面這個稀土的供給能夠有安全的供應鏈我們請副主委就是委員會的副主委謝謝 謝謝部長那麻煩副主委"},{"start":6887.456,"end":6887.476,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6888.376,"end":6918.136,"text":"副主委好 針對中共的長臂管轄跟他的跨境鎮壓我簡單的要特別提醒一下這不僅僅是對我國的國會議員的這種侮辱但是我們還要注意一件事情就是說之前在白俄羅斯有逼客機迫降來去逮捕異議記者的事情我不知道你還有沒有印象原則上就是白俄羅斯他是在派他的這個他的空軍升空他迫使這個瑞恩航空的客機轉降到白俄首都"},{"start":6918.916,"end":6942.195,"text":"也就是說這樣子的可能性是有的所以說你必須要有一個風險的評估我們哪一些被點名的國會議員或者是重要的官員當他們出國的時候這個風險是有的有沒有經過這些不友好國家甚至是有敵意國家的領空是不是會有類似這樣的狀況出現我是提醒因為已經發生過了好 謝謝"},{"start":6944.477,"end":6963.105,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員副主委有沒有要回答沒有嗎好請回好接下來進行詢問委員徐曉新委員謝謝主席我們先請林佳龍林部長來部長請"},{"start":6973.232,"end":7001.231,"text":"部長好我想今天大家都關注的是川習會的會面在我們開會的與此同時川普跟習近平也已經有公開的會面然後也在幕僚的陪伴之下有了一個基本的對話當然記者的這些喊話他們都是講說彼此之間有很好的關係一直都有很好的關係然後大概就是簡單的問候"},{"start":7003.632,"end":7030.6,"text":"但是有幾件事情想要跟您詢問因為今天的新聞有一些消息人士表示我相信這個消息人士可能都是在美國這邊行走的記者他們的說法可能會對 可能不會對我沒有辦法把握但是我們還是得來詢問我們的外交部林部長對消息人士他們所說的一些回應"},{"start":7031.54,"end":7048.199,"text":"那麼呢可能這個我沒有自己的想法我沒有說這個消息人士講一定是對的因為他沒有具名但是在這麼關鍵的時刻我想我還是得提出來那這個是在CNN他的這個報導裡面呢他就講到就是說呢"},{"start":7048.819,"end":7070.584,"text":"儘管美方的資深官員相信川普不會在會談當中被破表態反對台灣獨立但是川普拒絕排除台灣可能被牽扯進美中貿易談判的可能性台北方面正擔心美方的支持是否動搖這是第一點我先把這個問題都講完一次再請您回覆"},{"start":7071.224,"end":7093.402,"text":"那這個所謂消息人士表示台灣正積極重新評估如何爭取川普政府站在自己這一方那面對的這個美中的雙重壓力那賴總統這個承諾包含是國防支出等等那可能不會成為頭條新聞但是會影響美台的關係那其中一個我覺得比較需要請教您的就是"},{"start":7094.022,"end":7114.747,"text":"其中一項考量是 召回現任駐美代表余大雷改派一位更具有政治手腕的外交官部分川普官員私下表示雖然余大雷獲得部分的白宮人士支持但是這位職業外交官欠缺於川普圈子有效互動的政治能量"},{"start":7115.507,"end":7135.49,"text":"那我想要先請部長幫我們說明一下有關於CNN剛剛的報導還有台美之間的關係在川習會的互動之後我們的掌握是如何那進一步的是跟您比較更有關係的就是說我們的駐美大使駐美代表會不會更換人選"},{"start":7137.302,"end":7163.619,"text":"包括委員台美政府之間的溝通管道很暢通而且也很順利在進行因為針對最近這幾件包括APEC或川習會等至於說委員提到的我們駐美的人士我們並沒有啟動任何要調整的程序目前因為美出的功能也發揮得很好"},{"start":7164.428,"end":7177.152,"text":"好所以我們沒有打算要這個召回駐美代表于大雷大使沒有目前沒有好那好謝謝那這個部長可以先請回好謝謝我先請一下這個陸委會跟經濟部好"},{"start":7186.065,"end":7210.729,"text":"那這個兩位好 那這個最近很多人關心有關於先前卓榮泰院長在大院的這個這個質詢備詢的過程當中那有談到這個 我們先請教經濟部有談到就是呢 淘寶跟拼多多兩個平台 這個電商平台如果沒有進到台灣這個落地公司的話要取消 要取消他們的這個平台"},{"start":7211.249,"end":7231.421,"text":"那請問一下經濟部這邊昨天呢就有提到就是說呢我們沒有電商的這個相關的這個選項那我想問一下在這種情況之下依照院長的指示多久會做出那撤銷淘寶以及拼多多在台灣的這個電商平台的APP的決定"},{"start":7233.239,"end":7256.801,"text":"委員好 那針對這個部分我們國際貿易署主要是在跨境這個部分加強跟海關那邊在加強查緝的這個部分沒有 我們要問查緝的事情這個是另外一個問題我問的是 院長所說的要下架淘寶跟拼多多如果他們沒有在期限之內在台灣落地那這個期限是多久"},{"start":7257.401,"end":7280.338,"text":"然後呢什麼時候如果沒有完成你們要把淘寶跟拼多多平台關掉有沒有按照院長的指示再進行報告委員我們這個部分我們會吸回再跟我們部內的相關的單位來做所以我們的行政院長卓榮泰在備詢之後沒有跟你們再進一步提到這件事情沒有再進一步的做要求沒有進一步的再提供時間點"},{"start":7282.892,"end":7307.276,"text":"這個部分我在跟我們部裡面的相關單位在做進一步的確認好 所以就是沒有打算要回我就對了還是你不知道不知道就說不知道這個部分我沒有掌握好 不知道就算了那我們問一下陸委會就是關於淘寶跟拼多多這些電商平台現在就被認為說如果沒有落地的話然後要請他們離開我想要問一下陸委會對這個事情的態度是什麼"},{"start":7308.486,"end":7333.08,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們有兩個重要的原則第一個現在境外的這個豬肉包含中國大陸在內我們還是不允許絕對不會允許任何形式的這個進口誰說允許啦對所以我是跟委員報告我們對這個原則沒有人說允許那你報告這要幹嘛那請問你可以在淘寶我問嘛你可以在淘寶跟拼多多上面買到豬肉製品然後寄到台灣嗎臨時陸委恢復主委應該清楚吧"},{"start":7333.78,"end":7362.566,"text":"可以嗎至少我個人是沒有這樣的經驗不是你個人的問題啊是你們有沒有去研究可不可以的問題啊是不可以的對嘛是不可以那不可以就不可以嘛不可以的話那就沒有辦法進來嘛沒有辦法進來的話查驗也不是你陸委會的事情也是人家這個EZ位的事嘛那請問一下我問的問題是陸委會對於這些電商平台若沒有進到台灣做公司的話那就要被取消電商平台這件事情陸委會的看法是什麼"},{"start":7363.257,"end":7370.982,"text":"我們會跟那個速發部經濟部進一步的去研擬相關的法令規定所以你們是朝向院長所說的方向就是可能要把這兩個雙平台關掉是這個意思嗎大的方針來講是這樣但CPI還是要研擬另外您剛剛講到說最近這個有一些什麼投書啊什麼異常帳號啊然後什麼認知作戰我想問一下您自己是學者出身的您覺得"},{"start":7387.674,"end":7395.927,"text":"這個美國智庫蘭德公司它有特定的比較親中的政黨政治傾向或者是這個類似這樣的情況嗎美國的蘭德公司"},{"start":7398.587,"end":7427.867,"text":"其實個別的智庫或者是個別的學者他們的立場我們是不予評論啦你不予評論那剛剛又說這個投書到這個時代雜誌的然後呢就人家就親中那有的人你就可以評論有的人就不能評論那就是說講賴清德不好的就可以評論沒有特別去提到就不能評論是這樣嗎當然不是啊我的問題是說你作為一個過去是學者你應該知道蘭德公司這家智庫是相當悠久的那我問你他對於所謂的中國大陸他有沒有特別親中的情況"},{"start":7428.887,"end":7451.278,"text":"那你不會不了解吧你的看法是什麼陸委會的見解是什麼其實以智庫本身或者是以特定學者本身他們的立場當然都有可能會隨著時局的變化有一些調整所以委員您剛所提到的那您提的應該不會是他們發布的這個報告上面會有這個認知作戰的這個問題或者是說他們是因為現在這個川子集會之前所以刻意的透過這些報告然後再來影響這個台灣或者是台灣的民眾吧"},{"start":7457.481,"end":7469.931,"text":"上面有三位這個政治科學家也是學者的名字喔 您可以看一下如果您覺得有哪一位是您想要評論說他是親中的所以他講的這個話不實在請現在就告訴我上面有名字 您看一下投影片有嗎你看啊 OK"},{"start":7479.076,"end":7505.021,"text":"這個其實我還是要再次的強調啦我們不對特定的美國的學者跟智庫有啊 你剛剛就已經對特定的智庫跟學者你已經發表了意見了呀我可以發言一下嗎你已經一直在發言我並沒有阻擋你的發言啊好 謝謝喔那可以讓我稍微說明一下下那我們的意思是說美國的智庫或美國的學者發表他們的看法然後有可能會被異常的帳號我剛剛回覆的是這一塊我回覆的主要的重點是在於會被特定的帳號渲染並且過度的延伸的解釋"},{"start":7507.742,"end":7532.861,"text":"怎麼樣在這過度的延伸解釋啊那人家就是有如果說這個智庫的學者就是有投書到時代雜誌然後他就是有說賴清德總統是regulus然後有人去把這樣子的一個新聞甚至一開始是中央社寫的然後呢去轉貼了這個中央社的報導之後就被你們說成是好像呢這個是是這個異常帳號等等的這個我覺得不實際啊我今天要討論的是蘭德公司的這一篇新聞啊就是這個報告"},{"start":7534.082,"end":7552.159,"text":"那裡面他提到的這幾個我覺得比較嚴重的部分在於說他談到了他們的建議是這邊英文中文我都把它拉出來避免你們又說什麼斷章取義之類的沒有他講說美國跟中國應該要建立一個互信的訊號"},{"start":7553.4,"end":7576.456,"text":"主要他提到具體案例是美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸永久分離也不反對和平統一中國可以重申和平統一是首選途徑闡述可行且具說服力的實際方式並明確表示動武警在反分裂國家法所規定的最極端情況下才會被視為懸賞請問一下陸委會對於蘭德公司這樣子的一個建議"},{"start":7577.156,"end":7599.253,"text":"你們的態度是站在肯定的角色還是你覺得跟你們現狀希望推進的方向是不一樣的我們陸委會還是主張中華民國的主權不是拿來被交易的並且中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬也是客觀事實所以關於蘭德公司或者是任何的智庫任何的學者發表的言論對於美國方面的建議我們都予以尊重那我們也會予以平息"},{"start":7599.963,"end":7618.729,"text":"你予以尊重歸予以尊重啊那人家的說法跟你我現在問的是說他現在的這樣子的一個對美的建議的說法跟目前我們陸委會我們的這個對美台包含是台灣自己本身的方向是一致的還是不一致的我沒有叫你評論這個人他"},{"start":7620.69,"end":7639.707,"text":"就是方向是否一致嘛就是說我們現在台灣 陸委會這邊是否認為美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸選友分離然後不反對和平統一以及中國大陸他可以做這些說法還有下一頁對不起 主席給我一點點時間把它講完不然等一下說我們只講一半"},{"start":7640.367,"end":7655.468,"text":"那它裡面 這都是關於八頁 七頁左右提到跟台灣有關的更大膽的選項 美國因為它有提供我們軍事支持所以它可以有一定的影響力限制以及可能破壞美國主張的現狀行為"},{"start":7657.751,"end":7681.18,"text":"我要問的事情不是說你對這篇報告的評論我要問的問題是我們現在陸委會的整體對兩岸之間的方向跟這篇文章提到的方向是一致的或是不一致的有部分的內容是一致的 堅持和平的這一塊那哪一部分是不一致的可以再回到前頁嗎 可以"},{"start":7683.588,"end":7711.628,"text":"比如說就是美國聲明他不支持台灣獨立這個部分我們就只能予以尊重但是不見得是我們國會的主張那這個一不反對和平同意呢這也是一樣就是說這個我們尊重所以你講清楚嘛你要不要一次把它講完就是說哪一些你們是尊重但是不同意不見得是一樣的方向我這樣講比較柔性那哪一些是你們本身就覺得我們這政策上面跟他的建議主張是一樣的方向"},{"start":7712.202,"end":7739.372,"text":"因為這有一些是假設性問題啦就是說兩岸是不是永久分離喔或者說統一的這個方式用和平的方式還是用其他的方式所以這裡面對於陸委會來講的話那我們對於是不是要永久分離來說這不是我們現在政策要討論的這個主軸那維持現狀還有中華民國 中華人民共和國互不隸屬這才是我們目前陸委會在兩岸政策上面的一個基調好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員各位請回好 接下來進行訓導委員沈伯陽委員"},{"start":7750.322,"end":7756.882,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個先有請這個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以"},{"start":7765.851,"end":7778.618,"text":"那個 副總您好那這個APAC的問題待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下這個堪稱典範"},{"start":7782.64,"end":7808.808,"text":"那這個呢 當然呢這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢他們對我寄出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題就是剛好今天有這一個川熙會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上當然是其人一鬥啦"},{"start":7809.708,"end":7825.776,"text":"但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這一個東西公布出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員"},{"start":7827.097,"end":7854.767,"text":"但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講的司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在"},{"start":7855.287,"end":7871.622,"text":"那我就發現其實坊間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情"},{"start":7872.502,"end":7891.963,"text":"所以呢不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕那所以呢一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到這個香港去嘛"},{"start":7892.623,"end":7917.361,"text":"結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到是花蓮的對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼"},{"start":7918.141,"end":7932.905,"text":"像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼"},{"start":7937.386,"end":7958.74,"text":"他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼"},{"start":7959.6,"end":7975.119,"text":"但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後他在一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為他一直他在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中他會覺得台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多"},{"start":7975.8,"end":7997.982,"text":"所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎"},{"start":7999.443,"end":8024.064,"text":"有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應"},{"start":8026.306,"end":8043.358,"text":"是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右"},{"start":8045.559,"end":8059.395,"text":"我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天 今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦"},{"start":8060.416,"end":8076.163,"text":"我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠跟各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情"},{"start":8078.044,"end":8097.018,"text":"那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道"},{"start":8097.458,"end":8122.72,"text":"然後再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險那包含了像是這個公務員啦國會議員啦等等那麼他們未來這個出國必須要更加的這個謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們"},{"start":8123.28,"end":8148.13,"text":"如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流"},{"start":8148.53,"end":8161.705,"text":"那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉喔你們既然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省管委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法"},{"start":8163.447,"end":8180.624,"text":"同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有趣交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋"},{"start":8181.545,"end":8200.775,"text":"對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我就相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平"},{"start":8201.575,"end":8224.522,"text":"他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會有一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝"},{"start":8233.129,"end":8252.826,"text":"委員好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程"},{"start":8256.129,"end":8271.796,"text":"就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家那他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事"},{"start":8272.436,"end":8292.259,"text":"我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施"},{"start":8293.722,"end":8309.305,"text":"我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這也可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來"},{"start":8310.226,"end":8338.964,"text":"而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法它就不構成引渡雖然它即使有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它"},{"start":8340.064,"end":8369.124,"text":"廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威"},{"start":8369.884,"end":8395.678,"text":"而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障"},{"start":8396.919,"end":8411.374,"text":"這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應那這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方"},{"start":8411.894,"end":8430.822,"text":"那因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了那我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的那因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行"},{"start":8431.602,"end":8453.119,"text":"還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交部來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員部長 建議外交部對於旅遊安全的這個部分這一種用政治的不文明的違反國際方式的這種"},{"start":8455.329,"end":8478.29,"text":"這種長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的這個欄位應該要有一個正面表列然後另外如果有盟國家可以公開表達反對的話我覺得對穩定國人這個其實我們兩個都剛從國外回來坦白講我還是講那句中國做這個不好啦但是我們還是要讓人民知道不用去畏懼這種恐嚇謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林楚瑩委員進行詢問"},{"start":8488.438,"end":8490.263,"text":"謝謝主席主席先有請林佳龍林部長來 部長好"},{"start":8493.567,"end":8517.846,"text":"我們先讓陸委會休息一下還好今天陸委會來的是沈副主委是不然的話我可能就要先寫公私分明好這個剛剛沈博洋沈委員有特別提到APEC那今天其實我們主要的是針對APEC之外也多加了一個當然就是中國特別長臂管轄這把手伸到這個台灣的政治人物或名人的部分但是"},{"start":8518.866,"end":8541.702,"text":"我想先請教部長的是我們知道在川習會目前正在登場當中不過在川習會之前川普先講了Taiwan is Taiwan說實話還好這個中國的長臂管轄是沒有到這個美國去啦不然他首先第一個他想要制裁或者是發出這個通緝令的應該是川普了吧因為他說Taiwan is Taiwan你怎麼看川普特別在川習會之前講了這一句話有些人認為他是對於整個我們現在亞太的區域安全"},{"start":8548.346,"end":8565.319,"text":"做了一條新的界線那您怎麼來解讀我們對於所謂川習會會涉及台灣的議題當然要密切關心但不必過度擔心因為各界也都很關心因為是不是中國會利用川習會出招"},{"start":8567.641,"end":8591.018,"text":"也說有很多的呼籲那我們跟美國政府也密切的溝通那萬一有什麼狀況我們也會一起大家有協調怎麼來因應那我想我們就用川普的話來自己呈現就是台灣是台灣你這個如果習近平要談什麼那是你的事情可是我覺得美國的政策是很明確而且一致"},{"start":8591.978,"end":8602.962,"text":"這也不太跟我們說明所以我們是對台美關係有信心那最重要的是其實美中跟美台關係可以是分開的那中國過去長期都打台灣牌來威脅利誘但是我想我們去想一種情境如果今天習近平自己提了台灣議題結果川普的回應"},{"start":8619.557,"end":8629.582,"text":"不如他期待那他是不是很沒面子所以我想習近平也有他的判斷吧當然外界關心是因為每當這種高峰會的時候各界都會很關心不過我們對於台灣跟美國的關係我們是相當穩定的是可以共同來應處任何可能來自於中國方面他的一些可能的訴求或壓力"},{"start":8647.568,"end":8661.785,"text":"好我們知道在這個114年的時候包含追加預算回來之後我們的預算呢基本上在編列的部分明年會比今年要來的多那麼當然主要的還是因為我們的國際宣傳費用"},{"start":8663.427,"end":8683.363,"text":"在這個部分在這個年度也就是2025年我們被刪除了但是2026年當然我們現在還是希望這個國際宣傳非常的重要因為真的就像川普講的台灣is Taiwan台灣要被看見喔但是我想要延伸閱讀一下因為剛剛我接在這個鋪馬委員的後面我也想問的就是APEC2026會在中國舉辦"},{"start":8686.425,"end":8688.768,"text":"就像現在中國的長臂管轄會不斷的無限延伸他今天把台灣視為他的一部分他可以怎麼樣比如說明年我們的所謂領袖代表他可不可以先發制人的把他列為所謂的懲戒名單"},{"start":8703.507,"end":8732.593,"text":"又或者是其他可能出席的官員代表也列為懲戒名單這個不是沒有喔包括我想剛剛有提到的我們的昭偉王定宇主席然後我們的沈伯洋委員甚至於過去像游錫堃院長蘇貞昌院長顧立雄當時是國安會現在是我們國防部長也就是說他可以無限延伸那麼在這個部分接下來我們再出席國際會議的時候雖然我們講到的這個部分就是"},{"start":8733.736,"end":8761.103,"text":"我們認同這個部分但是他會不會用這個方式讓台灣就此被消失或者是我們在出席的部分受到一些影響那麼請部長回答之外也請這個陸委會省副主委我先跟委員報告就是我們也是有這個當中國在去年啊MIDU APEC大會上申請要主辦明年的APEC的年會的時候我們就有要求"},{"start":8762.544,"end":8776.176,"text":"中國必須公開承諾就是要確保我們所有出席人員的安全而且平等參與的權利所以當時他們的資深官員的代表盧梅亞最後還發函給所有的會員"},{"start":8777.597,"end":8804.383,"text":"那這個事後包括當然美國啦有好的國家大家一起的支持認為我們在去年建立了一個很好的基礎因為已經有將近十幾年來中國每當APEC都企圖矮化台灣甚至兩岸之間的交涉都透過可能兩會而不是透過APEC我們的這種外交單位在進行那好 今年在韓國進行的時候我們也非常密切注意是不是被矮化比如說在我們領袖代表的街機的時候一度"},{"start":8805.143,"end":8807.505,"text":"有傳出不是由部長這個層級來接我們經過溝通韓國也最後確認是由他們的資深官員會議的主席親自到機場接機我們林信義領袖的代表"},{"start":8825.979,"end":8845.797,"text":"所以我是覺得我們密切的注意那也希望今年在韓國這個慶周的經驗是奠定在APEC正常的一個規範之下那明年到了中國他會不會給我們什麼樣的矮化或什麼出什麼小動作我們都必須做好因應的準備"},{"start":8846.397,"end":8866.614,"text":"好 那我有請神父主委其實我們跟中國的部分很多的國際會議尤其是以亞洲為主題的時候在中國舉行的機會非常多包括像什麼杭州的亞運啊等等好 現在中國出招了不知道陸委會有沒有思考到這一個部分那就是他透過懲戒名單或者是透過他們想要立案追查誰之後這個過去我們談的是長臂管轄"},{"start":8870.097,"end":8881.502,"text":"比如說在中國境外包括其他非中國的地區但是明年的APEC在中國舉行接下來中國也會舉行許多的國際會議或者是活動那麼這一招他們會不會就此變成是讓台灣出席"},{"start":8887.625,"end":8901.986,"text":"國際活動或者是國際研討會等等的方式讓它沒有機會就是台灣沒有機會被曝光或者是被亮相甚至於在那一年就缺席這個部分陸委會有沒有思考到那麼有沒有想到如何來做因應"},{"start":8903.268,"end":8926.717,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的提醒那我想剛剛已經有特別提到了其實中國大陸來講的話他還是會希望能夠正常的來跟台灣做一些交流當然有更多他們想要不正常的一些方式來統戰台灣那我們也會不斷的去提醒他們如果用這樣子的這種無理的不文明的方式來打壓我們來參與一些這個國際活動的話那麼兩岸的這個交流也一定會受到不健康的這樣的氣氛所影響而沒辦法進行"},{"start":8928.058,"end":8948.445,"text":"所以對於陸委會來講我們是料敵從嚴啦所以剛剛部長也特別提到了明年可能在中國大陸要辦APEC更甚至於有各式各樣的一些體育賽會都會在中國大陸辦那我們會不斷的來進行風險的提醒然後另外也會讓中國知道說他們在進行這樣子的一些破壞之後對於這一些在中國舉辦的活動來講都不會是一個好的包裝"},{"start":8949.125,"end":8959.35,"text":"所以會擔心嗎那麼會認為說像比如說我先舉例喔115年在外交的部分那麼當然這個部分就是南海會議啊東協及周邊組織會議太平洋島國國際論壇那個農牧類的國際組織相關會議等等然後紡洗錢類的這個討論會然後亞洲開發銀行跟中美洲國際的年會也都會在言下之意就是"},{"start":8972.896,"end":8995.39,"text":"琳瑯滿目不生美鼠各種的國際上面的交流會議那麼他現在只要鎖定會出席的人因為這一次我們看到沈伯陽委員選擇在APEC之前做這樣的發布那麼你們認為這個部分是不是就是有計劃性的鎖定未來在我們可能出席的會議當中製造所謂的心理戰"},{"start":8996.391,"end":9025.691,"text":"那麼甚至於是輿論戰那麼剛剛主席王定宇委員特別提到的就是說我們必須要有一個明確的宣示雖然他沒有這種牆壁管轄的權利但是回到中國境內的時候包括這一次沈伯陽委員他的這個發布是透過重慶的公安部門那麼言下之意是落地之後就會有危險這個部分我不會第一時間要求陸委會給答案但是相關的我們國家的這種包括國安局或者是相關的"},{"start":9027.691,"end":9053.139,"text":"會議當中是不是要把這個東西成為未來在明年115年度當中我們出席國際會議或者是國際交流在中國的時候一個重點的項目非常謝謝委員的提醒那首先就是剛剛你有提到說這次沈委員他被檢舉的是在重慶這其實就是一個矮話因為他用地方的這個公安的系統來去去懲治我們的這個國會議員這個某種程度來講已經是有精心的包裝了"},{"start":9054.079,"end":9068.677,"text":"再來第二個的話就是我們也會去建議或者說我們也會去設法突破這樣的情況舉個例子來講比如說非常有意義的一些國際交流我們可以主動來舉辦像這兩天我們看到說關於海底電纜的一些議題然後有組成了福爾摩沙的論壇在台灣來做舉辦"},{"start":9070.839,"end":9086.862,"text":"所以我們不會去跟這個中國用這樣子的這種方式去跟他做零和的這個拼鬥跟這個競爭但是我們也會用更加的其他的這樣子的這個方法來去尋求我們在國際上面能夠盡量的被國際社會給看見好所以呢最後剛好剩下十幾"},{"start":9087.463,"end":9106.285,"text":"十幾秒的時間我想要提醒的就是其實對於中國現在當然就是昨天我也特別詢問了國安局長蔡明彥蔡局長他特別提到這是法律戰認知戰跟心理戰的一個部分那麼對於這個部分因為接下來還有一些其他出席的他可能就不是政治人物不是民意代表"},{"start":9106.766,"end":9131.46,"text":"他可能就是一般出席會議的相關的人士那麼在這裡如何確保他們的安全之外如何在輿論戰跟心理戰之內我們也要做一個回防的動作這個部分我想也是接下來陸委會必須要有所準備的沒有問題 我們也會提醒我們另一位副主委處委要小心好 對 公私分明好 謝謝林楚瑩委員 副主委請回好 接下來進行訓導委員馬文君委員"},{"start":9150.355,"end":9151.816,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長林教宏部長"},{"start":9167.717,"end":9182.9,"text":"部長早安 部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者"},{"start":9184.301,"end":9208.38,"text":"高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個"},{"start":9212.203,"end":9239.544,"text":"可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話"},{"start":9241.886,"end":9263.568,"text":"部長怎麼看報告委員 個別的學者專家或者投書 我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到 確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見 什麼是"},{"start":9264.108,"end":9286.233,"text":"我們政府對政府之間的關係至於說多元的意見也有不同的反應 針對這些有一些是基於擔心 希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了"},{"start":9287.369,"end":9301.415,"text":"因為其實是我們把它強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在它已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管期刊也好說法也好可是我們現在因為它一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的"},{"start":9309.199,"end":9325.265,"text":"格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是"},{"start":9325.845,"end":9332.069,"text":"可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎"},{"start":9356.021,"end":9360.502,"text":"一個當然委員提到確實啦我們怎麼樣就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估啦應處的時候那至於說個案我是不予評論那我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些"},{"start":9378.467,"end":9386.382,"text":"投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意"},{"start":9387.148,"end":9395.816,"text":"所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是"},{"start":9410.189,"end":9414.273,"text":"哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的"},{"start":9434.153,"end":9452.792,"text":"這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常的友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣"},{"start":9454.474,"end":9457.636,"text":"然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦"},{"start":9481.761,"end":9491.308,"text":"所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了"},{"start":9511.421,"end":9521.87,"text":"這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的"},{"start":9524.755,"end":9541.801,"text":"對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經"},{"start":9544.502,"end":9564.33,"text":"談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告"},{"start":9565.64,"end":9567.421,"text":"我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經"},{"start":9583.249,"end":9586.854,"text":"是已經快要拋空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個"},{"start":9599.149,"end":9603.913,"text":"比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰"},{"start":9616.121,"end":9620.445,"text":"你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是"},{"start":9644.183,"end":9651.289,"text":"適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量"},{"start":9661.937,"end":9679.751,"text":"可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為"},{"start":9686.616,"end":9692.639,"text":"或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公佈我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公佈出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄"},{"start":9713.63,"end":9717.154,"text":"現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的"},{"start":9729.807,"end":9734.249,"text":"那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊"},{"start":9746.215,"end":9766.291,"text":"那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟六十多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟六十多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這六十幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈"},{"start":9769.912,"end":9784.413,"text":"我們內部都有針對暴龍國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法復讀條例或當地是不是有法律因為PPC兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因"},{"start":9785.474,"end":9810.822,"text":"去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過"},{"start":9811.707,"end":9818.551,"text":"像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布"},{"start":9837.823,"end":9852.015,"text":"經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然"},{"start":9852.756,"end":9855.699,"text":"我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警"},{"start":9873.278,"end":9879.082,"text":"有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是其實美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為"},{"start":9902.258,"end":9913.3,"text":"應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做法好不好好 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員 各位請回好 接下來進行詢答的委員是賴思寶委員謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的林部長來 部長請謝謝"},{"start":9937.192,"end":9944.334,"text":"林部長我想請教APEC明年在大陸是不是對我們要不要參加要"},{"start":9945.131,"end":9972.448,"text":"一定參加嘛這是我們的權利平等參加一定參加你會不會覺得因為APEC我看參加的這個領袖高官會基本上都是國家的領導人嘛就是總統啦 主席啊或者是總理之類的嘛那我們長期被矮化啦老實講對台灣是非常不公平的啦但是也沒有辦法因為國際限時嘛那"},{"start":9975.414,"end":10002.342,"text":"問題是我們能不能爭取到再往上突破一點比如說卸任的總統副總統用這樣子來取代現任的總統副總統我們有沒有在努力這一方面不是只有企業界的現在都找企業界的當然林新立當過行政院副院長這個還講得過去可是畢竟只是行政院副院長他如果是副總統當過副總統那就不一樣了"},{"start":10003.982,"end":10020.886,"text":"其他世界國家都是國家領袖我們應該努力一下看是不是我們的當然是最好是現任總統副總統但是卸任的也可以如果以來講的話從這個角度來 林部長要不要回答一下是 我們會努力短期內很難做到的"},{"start":10028.134,"end":10033.338,"text":"如果大家都很支持我們當然支持啊你能夠信任總統這個耐心的去我們更支持啊對不對所以你現在講我就拉回來講一句話啦川普講說台灣是台灣喔這個大家當然很振奮啦任何人任何國家對台灣好的我們都支持台灣就是台灣這到底什麼意思這到底什麼意思"},{"start":10055.083,"end":10061.824,"text":"台灣是台灣 中國是中國吧那就是一邊一國這是委員講的啦就是說美中的談判不要就是一定要跟台灣議題掛鉤啦這個意思啦不是 你要知道他全文嘛他的全文後面他說台灣有晶片廠商去美國投資這個才是重點所以他可以自己決定不要透過誰決定 自己決定他重點放在生理的角度來大家都了解嘛"},{"start":10084.709,"end":10096.571,"text":"這個川普他是一個生理人他談世界的國際大事也是用生理的角度在談所以講台灣是台灣後面你要把全文全部讀完讀完就是還你台灣的有晶片商來美國投資它整個才是一個complete如果你過度的解讀當然如果你要這樣講的話"},{"start":10109.534,"end":10114.017,"text":"那我們可以問下一步啊如果你把他承認說這一邊那個的話那請他承認台灣做得到嗎請問外交部長要不要跟美國提出要求既然這麼支持台灣請你承認我們有啊 美國有制定台灣關係法關係法跟建交啦我講的是承認是建交啦不管跟中華民國建交也好跟台灣建交也好不管什麼名稱都好我們都支持啊"},{"start":10135.435,"end":10148.921,"text":"對不對 所以這個來看的話不是 這個來看很清楚的來看他這是深利人講的話深利人講的話有時候典山倒市 改來改去明明要課中國大陸100%的關稅後來慫掉了也沒有了對不對 也沒有了變來變去最後一個問題就是我們現在努力了半天外交部長努力了半天其實講起來我們希望參加國際的組織"},{"start":10164.887,"end":10191.276,"text":"中藥的越來越少連IKEA這個也沒有對不對連那個WHO的WHA做個觀察員都沒有一直倒退 參加的名稱最多的就是Chinese Taipei不然就是Chinese TaipeiAPEC Chinese Taipei不然就是WTO的台澎金馬獨立關稅領域還有最糟糕的是什麼亞洲開發銀行的"},{"start":10193.277,"end":10216.276,"text":"中國台北 或者台北 中國這個裡面唯一用ROC的是亞非農村發展組織這個東西非常少的組織國際上重視的 你們外交部常常講我實質外交幾乎全部都是 三分之二以上都用錢你是台北 這個名稱你滿意嗎"},{"start":10220.191,"end":10239.66,"text":"因為這個是我們當時參加APEC的會籍的名稱嘛是嘛但是我們全世界我們也參加目前統計我們就46個有正式會員的國際組織其中全台北占19個還有其他的很多元有沒有中華民國也有啊幾個幾個告訴我四個四個要台灣的幾個"},{"start":10245.799,"end":10255.954,"text":"也是四個四個 台灣的四個你不是有四十幾個嗎怎麼會有19個還有剛剛講的啊比如說那個關稅領域也是一個啊其他的方式都有啊這個加起來不到46個啦"},{"start":10257.691,"end":10264.497,"text":"三分之二都是用潛力是台配啦這個東西我覺得你們要努力在追求說看到川普這樣子大家很興奮的之前努力爭取國際組織正民化如果要的話正民化把它往前推最少通通變成除了中華民國除了台灣以外通通是潛力是台配啦"},{"start":10282.15,"end":10289.751,"text":"好歹這樣子吧對不對好 謝謝謝謝賴時保委員 謝謝委員各位請回接下來進行詢問委員是范雲委員謝謝召委先請陸委會副主委來 沈副主委委員好"},{"start":10309.941,"end":10327.786,"text":"陸委會副主委早安我想我們今天到這兒其實很多委員都是關心的跨境鎮壓的議題剛剛我們也已經討論到其實他現在沈博洋委員是政治人物但是這一起事件我們看到的他不是單一的個案"},{"start":10328.286,"end":10351.861,"text":"因為我們除了政治人物像我們那個昭偉過去也被公告過那現在沈博洋這個是立案那其實我們的軍公教裡面軍已經據說也已經上榜了那公的話以司法體系的話檢察官那只要執行國家的法令跟國安相關的那也可能上榜"},{"start":10352.401,"end":10366.637,"text":"那未來就是叫那這一次還有推動民防的公民團體也被捲入所以真的是讓大家覺得不只是言論自由那工作權"},{"start":10367.778,"end":10387.564,"text":"人身安全都受到威脅我想講的是要感謝周偉今天我們國會有這個報告因為別的國會早就在關注這個問題今年7月我受邀參加美國國會跨黨派議員提出的跨國鎮壓政策法案草案的聽證會"},{"start":10389.284,"end":10404.51,"text":"很榮幸做一個台灣國會議員在那裡分享我們的國家的經驗我當時舉的是我們蕭美琴準總統還有沈伯陽在網路上受到的中國網軍的各種攻擊其實跨國鎮壓已經發生"},{"start":10407.751,"end":10436.061,"text":"那當然就是不是只有美國國會那他是在準備立法關注他們的而且看到的都是中共加拿大去年就通過反外國干預法他們的國會明確把外國勢力的騷擾恐惡等行為視為刑事犯罪而且要求該國建立外國影響力註冊那當然我們也知道這個很多主要是針對中共或中國那英國的國會"},{"start":10437.401,"end":10460.977,"text":"今年也舉辦了公聽會聽證會他除了跨黨派的聽證會之外英國國會完成完整調查要求政府制定跨國鎮壓的明確定義建立受害者通報機制完善數據收集監測機制建立跨國互助機制我現在是想問副主委"},{"start":10462.299,"end":10486.6,"text":"今天外交部的報告也有講到自由之家的一些統計就是過去10年1,219件跨國鎮壓那發動的主要來自中國中共的占22%算是最大國所以台灣當然現在它過去可能是針對譬如說瑞典籍的香港人等等或者是在美國籍的華人現在針對的是我們中華民國的國民"},{"start":10489.182,"end":10501.193,"text":"以自由之家的因應做法說最好的做法是要承認威脅提升執法認知提供主動保護您覺得我們台灣在這三方面做得如何"},{"start":10502.052,"end":10529.305,"text":"非常謝謝委員您提供非常多因為目前看起來好像只有民進黨籍的特別關切這個問題是非常謝謝委員那我也想舉一個例子來講比如說中共他也想要利用2758號決議文來打壓台灣在國際上的生活空間我之所以舉這個例子是因為我們確實有看到很多的國家有注意到這些事情那麼這個跨境鎮壓剛剛您所提到的這些例子都非常棒但是我們看到2758號舉這個例子來講我們也非常希望台灣自己本身的國會也可以提出一個譴責"},{"start":10530.365,"end":10545.071,"text":"所以包含像這一次沈委員的案子如果說我們台灣能夠不分黨派一致的來表達對於中共這個行為的不滿意的話那麼將會達到一定的這樣的團結跟嚇阻作用所以我們也非常希望這個議題可以再謝謝喔那我也希望喔如您講的我們跨黨派提出譴責那我也希望比照英國國會喔如果我們跨黨派沒有譴責的話行政部門是不是能夠更主動的保護喔那你是不是給我20秒喔就是那個外交部長喔"},{"start":10558.197,"end":10572.533,"text":"林部長還有我們的國安的陳副局長跟黃市長因為我希望就是說我們比照英國國會跨黨陸委會主委您也先留步一下最後一頁是說今天非常多的事情"},{"start":10573.254,"end":10597.512,"text":"我們如果以英國國會的標準來講的話我想前兩項部分跨境鎮壓明確定受害者通報機制這應該可以是陸委會做的完善數據蒐集和監測機制是不是國安單位那後面三個因為這都是涉及到我們海外公民國人在海外的安全建立跨國互助機制我看外交部的報告寫得很好都有在做或準備做"},{"start":10598.172,"end":10617.592,"text":"還有協助駐外單位的監測並評估風險提供國人警示國家名單我覺得如果加拿大美國英國都已經跨黨派在做這樣的工作的話那是不是能夠請剛剛有回答蠻多的就是在做我想這是一個重要的外交工作"},{"start":10618.052,"end":10644.425,"text":"因為不能夠只限縮在中華民國我們自己的努力有這麼多國家在努力是不是可以協助我們法務國安就是說相關的建立跨國互助機制把這幾項工作還有法務部我們跟加拿大 英國 美國相比我們是不是有更要完善的部分能夠一起有一個跨部會的協調會議完善這幾項工作不知道部長還有幾位可以同意嗎"},{"start":10645.505,"end":10657.395,"text":"報告委員 我們會跟入委會邀集相關的部會單位來協調怎麼樣分工合作好 那個次長司法我知道你們也有在做一些跨國的努力了可以嗎"},{"start":10658.377,"end":10687.375,"text":"好 我們會來演繹 會跟外交部跟陸委會來搭配那那個國安的副局長 陳副局長可以嗎我們也會跟外交部一起來努力好 謝謝 那陸委會我想這是兩邊 兩者要合作那請問部長可以多久內我覺得不只是跨部會 還需要立法院一起加油我們一起跨黨派我們立法院 王定義委員會促成跨黨派一起努力今天這個我想報告是一個很好的開始那我們要追上其他國家國會的跨黨派努力 好嗎"},{"start":10687.995,"end":10702.271,"text":"那部長請問多久內可以給本席跟外交國防委員會一個報告書面報告我們一般是兩個月給他們兩個月 這樣兩個月可以嗎好 可以好 謝謝 謝謝召委我們是兩週內還兩個月那個更正 兩週內讓你更高興一點"},{"start":10707.808,"end":10720.785,"text":"好沒關係我們另外約定從你們約定那個今天因為詢問法務部的人比較少本席希望我們法務部就長臂管轄在境內附和的因為我剛才聽到你們報告有講到跟蹤騷擾但如果在網路上"},{"start":10723.408,"end":10742.289,"text":"水軍公司這種組織化的去進行負荷遂行中共的這一意旨的他的法律上的責任什麼我們也希望在後續的報告上可以看到法務部更完整的報告好接下來進行巡禮委員林益君委員林益君委員林益君委員不在接下來進行巡禮委員邱志偉委員"},{"start":10753.757,"end":10757.64,"text":"謝主席 先請國安局副局長 陳副局長來 陳副局長請其實 沈伯陽不只一個 我們都是沈伯陽們中國對沈伯陽委員發布這種非常惡意的"},{"start":10779.94,"end":10805.689,"text":"然後你們國安局的研判他只是言語恫嚇還是有可能有實際的作為譬如說這個蕭副總統還沒就任之前在捷克 捷克我們還有住處都可能發生這種蓄意的衝撞那他不可能 我認為他不可能只是說說語一定有具體的作為"},{"start":10807.076,"end":10835.387,"text":"譬如說這個像我們如果在國外國會外交或者需要轉機只要到沒有住處的國家是不是會比較風險會比較高一點譬如說我們在香港有沒有住處在香港有沒有住處香港有沒有住處啦沒有沒有那轉機會不會有風險因為現在香港是一國一制"},{"start":10836.414,"end":10860.991,"text":"國安局的研判轉機會不會有風險會所以我們都不能去香港轉機對不對好 那如果沒有住處的國家我們外交部沒有住處的國家是風險會比較高一點會不會比較高是比較高我聽不到你的回答你那麼正面表列比較危險的國家"},{"start":10864.287,"end":10882.389,"text":"你這邊你的報告裡面這應處作為我覺得這不痛不癢根本好像毫無作為什麼強固國內安全最主要我們在國外怎麼保護我們的人身安全我們透過國際協力有我的力量國安局有沒有相關的具體作為"},{"start":10886.105,"end":10902.758,"text":"這部分我們會跟我們友軍單位來妥善的來處理來保護我們國人在國外的人身安全你這個回答太抽象我根本聽不懂你在說什麼好 那請這個外交部林部長謝謝委員委員好 這個我們有駐外管處的部分可能要再通令外管"},{"start":10913.86,"end":10932.287,"text":"特別針對這個中國的這個長臂管轄我們有相關的如果不幸一旦發生比如說被拘留或者轉機的時候被他拘留我們各外管一定有相關的SOB處置作為目前外交部有沒有相關的這個"},{"start":10932.881,"end":10951.444,"text":"有 我在去年六月就很重視這個問題我們開過很多會針對這種樣態發生的時候怎麼應處那當然我們也有前面就先溝通嘛因為這涉及到中共要引用的法當地怎麼樣回應除了所謂的引渡法這個以外就是司法互助台還包括他們對一中的解釋"},{"start":10952.165,"end":10976.585,"text":"以及其他對於兩邊是不是有共同的刑法對這些部分的一個處置當然因為這不是法律而已這也涉及到到時候中共可能會施壓萬一發生如果所以你要讓所有國人包括立法委員有相關的風險意識你必須要做一些燈號管制像旅遊風險旅遊風險去警戒你要把另外的政治風險也用燈號來顯示"},{"start":10978.146,"end":11006.175,"text":"所以我就看這個是紅色哇 這個可能你就是不建議前往政治風險極高這個是一個原則但是因為如果涉及到國家對國家那麼全面性我們當然也會考量到你旅遊風險另外再擴大一個政治風險旅遊風險都有每個國家都有旅遊風險的建議嘛 對不對紅色 藍色對 社交人身安全對 那你能不能多加一個政治風險"},{"start":11008.337,"end":11020.952,"text":"我們當然會有評估的指標不過就是說怎麼樣反映在我們的警示的燈號這個我們會來持續研究另外15秒鐘就是台韓關係"},{"start":11022.694,"end":11036.945,"text":"民間交流非常的暢旺 對不對大家都知道什麼叫Blackpink大家都知道這個演唱會那個交流的票很貴生活啊這個受到韓國文化很深影響很多人也喜歡到韓國旅遊"},{"start":11038.306,"end":11060.092,"text":"所以這個部分 我們跟韓國的官方的關係國會的交流 政黨的交流 或者政府之間的交流比不上台日關係台日關係也不是現在一觸可及經過數十年的累積我覺得台韓有很多成長的空間現在韓國的國際地緣政治跟地緣經濟跟過去不一樣 哪裡不一樣"},{"start":11061.152,"end":11073.922,"text":"他面臨到北韓的威脅跟我們一樣面對中國的威脅他的經濟過去比較親中但是現在呢中國用他的低價取消讓韓國的這個產業也深受打擊跟我們台灣產業一樣"},{"start":11075.532,"end":11079.475,"text":"所以我們應該要組成一個東亞國家的台日韓經濟安全合作促進會特別是台韓關係我們有很大的成長空間但需要戰略這部分再請部長能夠多加重視好 我們來努力謝謝 好 各位請回"},{"start":11095.626,"end":11118.777,"text":"接下來進行訓導委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在黃人委員黃人委員黃人委員不在牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在"},{"start":11119.861,"end":11132.055,"text":"以登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳永康委員林益君委員黃婕委員黃仁委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面"},{"start":11138.018,"end":11162.245,"text":"及口頭諮詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆另有約定期限當然範圍是一個月從其所定那本席這邊加兩件事情請列入記錄第一個我們法務部以及我們調查局就"},{"start":11162.825,"end":11181.274,"text":"在地協力者對於中國長臂管轄跨境脅迫鎮壓的這些在地協力者的樣態涉及法律的我們現在不是講呼籲而是涉及我國法律規範的樣態及法律責任以及我國的執法的能力"},{"start":11182.294,"end":11197.265,"text":"請予以明確給一份報告給本委員會他在實體的生活上跟監騷擾或者進行相關的組織集結或者在網路上有公司有組織有水軍公司等等"},{"start":11198.125,"end":11218.003,"text":"進行稅刑或附和中國這樣子的長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的情形我覺得我們司法單位不教而殺為之虐必須明確化他的法律責任我們國安法第二條第一項是七年以上重罪請適度的有效的實行我國的法律主權第二"},{"start":11220.004,"end":11245.083,"text":"對於這一個旅行風險的警示也請我們外交部進速來擬定相關的計畫由盟國家來聲援譴責中國這種不文明魯莽的做法違反人權的做法也應該有具體的一個成效好那剛才我補充說明牛許廷委員有素面質詢有五位好本日會議到此結束大家辛苦散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}