{"error":false,"id":["170008"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170008,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170008","日期":"2026-06-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-17T09:25:14+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-17T09:37:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d79496a9ef369d5f04afb62b7a0f3233ff6f11fc4da20edf4b529d86e3a74c3050ce43fc02dd9c4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:25:14 - 09:37:04","會議時間":"2026-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等27人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一、第三十五條之二及第三十五條之三條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員李柏毅等19人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一及第三十五條之二條文草案」案。\n（七）委員楊瓊瓔等28人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一及第三十五條之二條文草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（十）委員林倩綺等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「律師法第七條及第七十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等18人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員羅智強等17人擬具「律師法第七條、第七十四條及第七十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【6月17日及18日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":3.91221875,"end":5.58284375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":6.392843750000001,"end":7.759718750000001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":13.598468750000002,"end":68.61096875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":68.96534375,"end":78.66846875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":78.97221875000001,"end":103.64346875000001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":104.09909375000001,"end":114.96659375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":115.75971875,"end":126.93096875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":127.43721875000001,"end":130.01909375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":128.85471875000002,"end":128.97284375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":129.05721875,"end":133.00596875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":132.12846875,"end":133.73159375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":133.73159375,"end":135.43596875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":136.49909375000001,"end":138.96284375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":138.52409375000002,"end":154.09971875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":153.74534375000002,"end":164.49471875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":156.46221875,"end":157.23846875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":159.51659375,"end":159.56721875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":159.58409375000002,"end":159.60096875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":164.79846875,"end":166.40159375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":167.19471875000002,"end":174.07971875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":174.56909375,"end":176.03721875000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":176.30721875,"end":179.24346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":180.84659375,"end":191.39346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":191.64659375000002,"end":202.00784375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":202.71659375000002,"end":202.75034375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":202.75034375,"end":202.83471875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":202.83471875,"end":203.59409375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":203.59409375,"end":205.83846875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":205.92284375000003,"end":206.86784375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":206.53034375000001,"end":209.44971875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":207.39096875,"end":214.90034375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":212.01471875000001,"end":216.94221875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":216.87471875000003,"end":222.73034375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":220.75596875000002,"end":223.03409375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":223.52346875,"end":224.62034375000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮署長成","start":225.07596875000002,"end":240.28034375000001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿",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有請次長次長2024年被起訴的具有指標意義的律師鄭宏威他參與詐騙集團的運作然後千年十多位律師一起成為詐騙集團的軍師跟共犯"},{"start":30.083,"end":37.869,"text":"那這次律師法的修法大概也其中要去補足這個洞那我們都很支持但是從2024年5月發生了爆發這起律師集團性的一個參與詐騙集團的犯罪那一直到去年6月"},{"start":48.216,"end":68.185,"text":"行政院才把律師法送到立法院 已經又過了一年那現在是2026年的6月 所以我們也才要審查這部法所以一年一年過去了 詐騙權一年一年越嚴重就是整個在台灣越氾濫那市長 我今年3月的時候是跟部長做詢答的時候我提出了一個完整的事實跟數字的依據"},{"start":69.445,"end":93.12,"text":"等要求檢討目前刑法當中有一個叫做定執行刑的制度那這個遭詐騙集團去濫用的問題那些有問題的律師他不只是成為詐騙集團掌控小弟的工具跟好朋友更是一再配合詐騙集團利用法律制度上對他們有利的部分然後申請定執行刑讓車手小弟的刑期一再的變少"},{"start":96.802,"end":114.328,"text":"當時部長是有回答我就在你們看這個投影片上有看到法務部針對定執行部分要研議這個修法而且要更合理的集據那我現在就請教次長這個研議到什麼進度那什麼時候會可能把法案送到立法院來什麼時候可以排審呢"},{"start":116.116,"end":134.823,"text":"公務員報告就是說有關於您上次問本部部長的這個部分我們有拟據的這個刑法第51條跟這個相關的一個草案那這個部分我們會盡速處理麻煩您聲音再大一點我說我們有拟據草案了但是我們會盡速處理相關的程序已經有草案了對我們有拟據草案"},{"start":136.587,"end":154.069,"text":"那我可以請問一下這個大概的進度嗎你去草案不過因為內部上對於這樣的一個急劇就是說到底要怎麼樣更合理更完善這部分就是說內部還有在討論那所以委員的部分其實部長回來也相當重視所以我們回去會更加的慎重來處理這件事情"},{"start":154.949,"end":178.627,"text":"好 謝謝 就是要有進度不要把我們這個災害的事情當作耳邊風 謝謝然後律師洩密參與詐騙集團要被起訴 要被羈押 要被關那請問檢察官呢懲戒法法院他判決確定 您看到這個投影片上竟說這位女檢吳雅芝她是私慮不周 罰縫十個月 不痛不癢"},{"start":181.125,"end":201.387,"text":"他這個洩密這個大團律師男友這樣子要罰十個月而且理由是思慮不周思考不周我想請問次長為什麼會出現這麼離譜的狀況跟委員報告本部的當時對這件事情其實是蠻慎重在看待的那我們這一部分我們法務部的是建議要免職"},{"start":202.765,"end":215.454,"text":"是要建議要我們法務部是建議要免職免職是最嚴重的處理方式那一換就是說您對於目前這樣的判決是不接受的嘛事實上我們也有上訴但是我們還是尊重我們的懲戒法院那不是白講嗎你們建議要免職然後他已經這樣的判決法務部毫無辦法嗎我們有上訴了但是我們這個在任何的這個案件之中"},{"start":229.051,"end":254.71,"text":"檢察官跟我們的這個法院 司法院這邊我們本來就有職權上的不同我們當然要尊重啦 但我們的態度有出來嘛對不對 委員我們態度有認為是應該要免職 而且我們也上訴了當然態度是一件事啦 實質上對民眾的感覺 但次長請你繼續看這個檢察官七次洩密 結果只罰奉十個月民間司法會批評這個是懲戒法院跟桃園地檢署互踢皮球的結果你認為民間司法會這個批評公正嗎 他這個說法公正嗎"},{"start":257.628,"end":283.156,"text":"我想這個任何的批評指教我們都尊重啦但是我們本部的態度就是說我們如果有違法我們就會那您應該是某個程度可以接受因為您都建議這個法務部都建議免職了吧那但是司改會也說桃園地檢署應該重新面對無亞之的有犯罪嫌疑的事實重新進行犯罪的這個追溯請問次長桃園地檢署有重新偵辦嗎據你的了解"},{"start":285.718,"end":305.273,"text":"還是就這樣放下了 讓此案成為過去事我們有喊請桃園地檢署再去審註你們已經喊請對 但是桃園地檢署因為這是個案嘛我們沒有辦法針對個案去做一個這樣的一個好 我也讓大家說 民眾聽到這樣的事情你們做了 做了書面的 請他重來我們有請他重新去審一下現密氣勢罰錢10個月 罰錢10個月薪水這樣子 事情就是這樣發生"},{"start":311.178,"end":325.776,"text":"跟委員報告其實法務部我們針對個案我們是沒有辦法介入的所以通案上的就是你們最常報告部長最常用的不是那是事實就是說我們因為我們如果手伸進去的話那也很奇怪因為在個案上以後我們再來討論這個觀念問題"},{"start":327.057,"end":335.96,"text":"在醫學上所有的個案就是開始通案的開始沒有個案拿來的通案市長我現在今天本席要替台北台北西門町中正萬華區基層李明發聲李明向我們陳情法務部已經決定要在西門町捷運站旁邊的精華商圈興建檢查署大樓"},{"start":345.663,"end":362.755,"text":"那公家機關又蓋大樓我覺得這不是不能討論但是法務部的態度根據我的理解是非常的藐視民意甚至有些黑箱我說黑箱的意思是說等一下我會再提到就希望未來你們要改正了因為法務部每次都把里長有出息當作里長有同意"},{"start":363.976,"end":371.1,"text":"李明同意這個做法我們都可以去檢視那個所有會議記錄部長為什麼李明會反對呢對不起次長這裡原本是國軍歷史文物館和藝文中心2017年國防部在公聽會上承諾這塊土地未來要規劃成什麼結合藝文展演商業設施跟便民空間的國軍藝文特區結果呢事情完全不是這樣的發展"},{"start":389.83,"end":399.114,"text":"我的重點在於你們有沒有好好跟地方溝通啊就是進行改成單一的封閉的司法辦公廳社這樣子嚴重背離了政府當時對人民的一個承諾請你看這塊地我想也許你們很熟就是在中華路的林蔭大道旁邊那緊接著就是捷運西門站的出口這是國際觀光客必經的西門廳商圈"},{"start":414.801,"end":417.445,"text":"請次長用常識想一想如果未來高檢署沒檢在這裡蓋蓋在這裡每天有多少求車會頻繁出入那未來你只要遇到這個重大案件或成抗"},{"start":427.893,"end":447.043,"text":"當有陳情抗議 駒馬阻隔 維安管制 交通封鎖那你一定會遇到 外遇到這個西門徒步區跟中華路的林蔭大道啊這個對周邊的商圈啊 藝文觀光 甚至交通造成多大的衝擊還有居民怎麼上加班 學生如何上下學那裡好多學校欸 有七八間這個托育中心欸市長 您對這個有初步的看法嗎"},{"start":452.225,"end":467.953,"text":"我知道這應該好多年了委員報告 其實台北地檢署也針對這件事情有發新聞稿我們都會很誠意的去溝通因為事實上來講等一下我會跟您談新聞稿的事情之前那個委員也都有關心到說我們檢察官工作的問題"},{"start":469.913,"end":486.62,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們現在這個我們的這個對檢察官工作環境的改善我們還是當然要非常重視那地檢署這邊希望能夠做誠意上的溝通化解掉委員剛剛所說的這些疑慮我們會盡力去做這個部分上"},{"start":487.62,"end":507.987,"text":"這樣他要說回覆我們就來看部長你知道台北地檢署是怎麼回覆台北市政府嗎竟然說本案不會影響其座落位置附近之人車通行以及居民日常生活本案將有效的帶動周邊的餐飲零售需求增進鄰近區域之土地價值這個說法讓居民難以信服讓我嘆為觀止"},{"start":512.888,"end":533.654,"text":"西門町還需要依賴檢察署大樓來活躍他的商區來提高他的地價嗎這個說法簡直是荒唐啊那其實黎明也提出了非常好的建議想法像士林他有台北的表演藝術中心南港有台北流行音樂中心人家都在藉由展演商業"},{"start":534.594,"end":551.478,"text":"來翻轉城市來促進再生為什麼中正萬華的西園西區卻被迫要塞進一個高度管制的治安管制在駒園區呢這個基地的中華路林蔭大道在日治時代的時候就被說是公共藝文的這個展演重要區域戰後發展為國軍藝文特區也是第一屆金馬獎的舉辦地未來有沒有機會作為西區的藝文特區呢次長"},{"start":563.424,"end":572.647,"text":"跟委員報告過 您剛剛的那個文件上 北京人也有說得蠻清楚嘛很可笑的說法啊 既然是你們 你還要靠這個大樓這個是有經過這個專業祭司還有主管機關的一個會商研討以後認定的一個說這不會影響嘛"},{"start":580.129,"end":602.235,"text":"那當然我們會在這個事情上再更充分的去做溝通我了解你知道這個回覆文所以里長的怒火已經燒起來超過60位里長反對還有300位居民聯名抗議事實上我可以告訴你我想你也清楚三黨的立委三黨包括指導你也都非常關注所以我希望法務部第一個要傾聽里民聲音充分公開資訊好好釐清地方的疑慮"},{"start":606.976,"end":611.718,"text":"那在之前李明一再表達我也在這裡代替他們向你表達我希望暫緩這個規劃這第一個因為太多問題要去釐清第二個法務部絕對不可以這樣有開會當作有同意這不相等的"},{"start":623.644,"end":626.246,"text":"絕對以後不能將會議說你出席就代表你同意你們的會議記錄第三個請重新評估這個基地條件公共需求還有這個替代方案這是所有的開發建設要做的部分就是有沒有更好的替代方案整體去盤點司法檢查機關他所需要的這個"},{"start":643.719,"end":655.946,"text":"廳舍跟用地好嗎就是我剛剛提到的這三點我麻煩次長回去整理一下那給我一個報告好嗎就剛剛我提的那個非常具體的因為裡面有很多的疑點是不是可能先暫緩第二個不要再把這個會議記錄這個是里長這個非常具名指控他們出席是說他們同意"},{"start":663.83,"end":682.457,"text":"然後第三個就是說你有沒有其他的替代方案其他的這個做法可以嗎 次長我可以有這份報告嗎就是你們就這件事情我們回去會就是再提出報告跟委員說明但是我補充一下我們法務部我們是法律單位我們不會說把那個有開會當成就是已經通過"},{"start":682.517,"end":708.076,"text":"但事實上我有看到那個資料理長也就這麼講本部一向做事情都會依照法律來做所以才會也驚動到執政黨的立委第二個部分上就是說跟委員報告就是說請聽的當地的這個聲音我想不只是部裡北檢都會知道市長無論如何我想就今天這個案子是不是給我一個具體的回覆好嗎我們會再跟委員做說明那我再更加了解謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:18.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:18.903000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:18.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:19.903000+08:00","text":"請馮次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:19.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:20.903000+08:00","text":"次長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:18.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:49.827000+08:00","text":"次長，2024年被起訴的、具有指標意義的律師鄭鴻威，他參與詐騙集團運作，牽連了十多位律師一起成為詐騙集團的軍師及共犯，這次律師法的修法大概就是要去補足這個洞，我們都很支持。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:50.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:15.022000+08:00","text":"但是從2024年5月爆發這起律師集團性參與詐騙集團的犯罪，一直到去年6月行政院才把律師法送到立法院，已經又過了一年，現在是2026年6月，我們才要審查這部法，一年、一年過去了，詐騙集團一年比一年越嚴重，在臺灣越氾濫。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:16.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:47.100000+08:00","text":"次長，我在今年3月跟部長質詢的時候，我提出了一個完整的事實和數字依據等，要求檢討目前刑法當中的定執行刑制度遭詐騙集團濫用的問題，那些有問題的律師不只是成為詐騙集團掌控小弟的工具、好朋友，更是一再配合詐騙集團利用法律制度上對他們有利的部分，聲請定執行刑，讓車手小弟的刑期一再變少。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:50.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:04.246000+08:00","text":"當時部長是有回答我，你在投影片上可以看到，法務部針對定執行刑部分要研議修法，而且要有更合理的級距，我現在就請教次長，目前研議到什麼進度？","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:05.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:08.308000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以把法案送到立法院、什麼時候可以排審？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:10.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:20.760000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關於你上次問本部部長的這個部分，我們有擬具刑法第五十一條相關草案，這個部分我們會儘速處理。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:21.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:23.201000+08:00","text":"麻煩你聲音再大一點，有進度嗎？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:23.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:26.762000+08:00","text":"我們有擬具草案，我們會儘速處理相關的程序。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:26.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:27.542000+08:00","text":"已經有草案了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:28.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:28.803000+08:00","text":"對，我們有擬具草案。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:30.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:33.230000+08:00","text":"我可以請問大概的進度嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:33.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:48.049000+08:00","text":"我們已經擬具草案，不過因為內部對於級距到底要怎麼樣更合理、更完善，這部分內部還有在討論，針對委員提到的部分，其實部長也相當重視，所以我們回去會更加地慎重來處理這件事情。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:49.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:53.073000+08:00","text":"謝謝，就是要有進度，不要把我們在意的事情當作耳邊風。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:54.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:00.218000+08:00","text":"律師洩密、參與詐騙集團要被起訴、要被羈押、要被關，請問檢察官呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:04.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:26.017000+08:00","text":"你看這個投影片上的狀況，懲戒法院判決確定，竟說這位女檢吳亞芝是思慮不周，罰俸10個月，不痛不癢，他洩密詐團律師男友，這樣子只要罰10個月，而且理由是思慮不周、思考不周，我想請問次長，為什麼會出現這麼離譜的狀況？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:26.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:35.387000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，本部當時對這件事情其實是滿慎重在看待的，我們法務部是建議要免職。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:36.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:37.386000+08:00","text":"是建議要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:37.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:42.189000+08:00","text":"我們法務部是建議要免職，是最嚴重的處理方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:43.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:45.652000+08:00","text":"換句話說，你對於目前這樣的判決是不接受的，你現在建議的方式、你要做什麼呢？","quality":0.485},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:46.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:47.233000+08:00","text":"事實上我們也有上訴，但我們還是尊重懲戒法院的判決。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:47.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:47.513000+08:00","text":"那不是白講嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:47.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:48.734000+08:00","text":"你們建議要免職，它已經這樣判決，法務部毫無辦法嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:48.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:14.119000+08:00","text":"我們有上訴了，但是在任何的案件之中，檢察官和司法院本來就有職權上的不同，我們當然要尊重，但我們的態度有出來，委員，我們的態度是認為應該要免職，而且我們也上訴了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:15.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:17.622000+08:00","text":"態度是一件事，實質上是對民眾的感覺。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:17.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:28.310000+08:00","text":"次長，請你繼續看，這個檢察官7次洩密，結果只罰俸10個月，民間司法會批評這個是懲戒法院和桃園地檢署互踢皮球的結果，你認為民間司法會的批評公正嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:28.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:28.710000+08:00","text":"它這個說法公正嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:33.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:39.251000+08:00","text":"任何的批評指教我們都尊重，但是本部的態度是如果有違法，我們就會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:40.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:56.836000+08:00","text":"你應該是某個程度可以接受，因為法務部都建議免職了，司改會也說桃園地檢署應該重新面對吳亞芝有犯罪嫌疑的事實，重新進行犯罪追訴，請問次長，據你的了解，桃園地檢署有重新偵辦嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:59.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:01.219000+08:00","text":"還是就這樣放下了，讓此案成為過去式？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:01.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:04.462000+08:00","text":"我們有函請桃園地檢署再去審酌。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:04.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:07.124000+08:00","text":"你們已經函請……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:07.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:08.285000+08:00","text":"對，但是桃園地檢署……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:08.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:09.285000+08:00","text":"它可以不管你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:08.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:12.928000+08:00","text":"因為這是個案，我們沒有辦法針對個案去做這樣的一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:13.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:17.052000+08:00","text":"我也要讓所有民眾聽到這樣的事情，你們做了，提了書面請它重來……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:17.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:17.432000+08:00","text":"我們有請它重新審議……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:17.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:19.253000+08:00","text":"事實上他洩密7次，罰俸10個月薪，事情就是這樣發生的。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:25.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:30.665000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實法務部針對個案是沒有辦法介入的，所以通案上的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:30.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:32.647000+08:00","text":"這是你們包括部長最常用的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:33.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:38.935000+08:00","text":"那是事實，因為我們如果手伸進去的話，也很奇怪，在個案上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:39.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:45.078000+08:00","text":"以後我們再來討論這個觀念問題，在醫學上所有的個案就是通案的開始，沒有個案哪來的通案。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:46.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:21.278000+08:00","text":"次長，今天本席要替臺北西門町中正、萬華區的基層里民發聲，里民向我們陳情，法務部已經決定要在西門町捷運站旁邊的精華商圈興建檢察署大樓，公家機關要蓋大樓，我覺得不是不能討論，但是法務部的態度，根據我的理解是非常的藐視民意，甚至有些黑箱，我說黑箱的意思是等一下我會再提到，希望未來你們要改正，因為法務部每次都把里長有出席當作里長有同意、里民同意，這個做法我們都可以去檢視所有的會議紀錄。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:21.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:21.438000+08:00","text":"次長，為什麼里民會反對？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:21.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:50.913000+08:00","text":"這裡原本是國軍歷史文物館和藝文中心，2017年國防部在公聽會上承諾，這塊土地未來要規劃成結合藝文展演、商業設施及便民空間的國軍藝文特區，結果事情完全不是這樣子發展，我的重點在於你們有沒有好好跟地方溝通，就逕行改成單一的、封閉的司法辦公廳舍，這樣子嚴重背離政府當時對人民的承諾。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:50.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:10.163000+08:00","text":"請你看這塊地，我想也許你們很熟，就是在中華路林蔭大道旁邊，緊接的就是捷運西門站出口，這是國際觀光客必經的西門町商圈，請次長用常識想一想，如果未來高檢署、北檢蓋在這裡，每天有多少囚車會頻繁出入？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:10.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:41.043000+08:00","text":"未來只要遇到重大案件或陳抗，當有陳情抗議、拒馬阻隔、維安管制、交通封鎖，一定會外溢到西門徒步區和中華路林蔭大道，這個對周邊的商圈、藝文觀光甚至交通造成多大的衝擊，還有居民怎麼上下班，學生如何上下學，那裡有好多學校，還有7、8間托育中心，次長，你對此有初步的看法嗎？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:46.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:47.406000+08:00","text":"我知道這應該好多年了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:47.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:56.310000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實臺北地檢署也針對這件事情有發新聞稿，我們都會很有誠意地去溝通，因為事實上來講……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:56.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:58.471000+08:00","text":"等一下我會跟您談新聞稿的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:58.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:01.933000+08:00","text":"之前委員也都有關心到我們檢察官工作的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:01.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:02.933000+08:00","text":"那您的態度呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:02.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:03.933000+08:00","text":"法務部的態度是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:03.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:20.400000+08:00","text":"我們當然是希望，對於檢察官工作環境的改善，我們當然要非常重視，地檢署這邊希望能夠做誠意上的溝通，以化解委員剛剛所說的這些疑慮，我們會盡力去做，這個部分委員不用擔心。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:21.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:26.942000+08:00","text":"你要說回復，那我們就來看，部長，你知道臺北地檢署是怎麼回復臺北市政府嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:26.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:33.844000+08:00","text":"竟然說本案不影響其坐落位置附近之人車通行及居民日常生活。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:34.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:41.106000+08:00","text":"「本案將有效帶動周邊餐飲零售需求、增進鄰近區域之土地價值。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:41.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:41.967000+08:00","text":"」這個說法讓居民難以信服，讓我嘆為觀止！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:46.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:55.570000+08:00","text":"西門町還需要依賴檢察署大樓來活躍他的商區、來提高他的地價嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:55.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:56.791000+08:00","text":"這個說法簡直是荒唐啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:57.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:17.856000+08:00","text":"其實里民也提出了非常好的建議、想法，像士林有臺北表演藝術中心，南港有臺北流行音樂中心，人家都在藉由展演、商業來翻轉城市、促進再生，為什麼中正萬華的西區卻要被迫塞進一個高度管制的治安管制帶、拒馬園區呢？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:19.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:25.478000+08:00","text":"這個基地的中華路林蔭大道在日治時代的時候，即為公共藝文展演重要區域，戰後發展為國軍藝文特區，也是第1屆金馬獎的舉辦地，未來有沒有機會作為西區的藝文特區呢？次長。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:37.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:42.786000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告過，您剛剛的文件上，北檢也有說得蠻清楚嘛……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:43.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:44.086000+08:00","text":"很可笑的說法啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:44.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:45.366000+08:00","text":"竟然說西門町還要靠這個大樓……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:45.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:58.230000+08:00","text":"這個是有經過專業技師還有主管機關的會商研討，認定說這不會影響，當然我們在這個事情上會再更充分的去做溝通。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:58.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:35:58.960000+08:00","text":"次長，我了解你知道這個回復文，因為里長的怒火已經燒起來，超過60位里長反對，還有上百位的居民聯名抗議，事實上我可以告訴你，我想你也清楚三黨的立委，三黨包括執政黨也都非常關注，所以我希望法務部：第一個，要傾聽里民聲音，充分公開資訊，好好釐清地方的疑慮，但在這之前，里民一再表達，我也在這裡代替他們向你表達，我希望暫緩這個規劃，因為太多問題要去釐清；第二個，法務部絕對不可以將有開會當作有同意，這不相等的，以後絕對不能說你出席會議就代表你同意……你們的會議紀錄；第三個，請重新評估基地條件、公共需求，還有替代方案，這是所有的開發建設要做的部分，就是有沒有更好的替代方案，整體去盤點司法檢察機關所需要的廳舍跟用地，好嗎？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:35:59.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:05.523000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的這三點麻煩次長回去整理一下，給我一個報告，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:05.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:09.306000+08:00","text":"就剛剛我提到非常具體的，因為裡面有很多的疑點，是不是可能先暫緩？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:09.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:22.552000+08:00","text":"第二個，不要再把這個會議紀錄……這是里長非常具名的指控，他們出席不代表他們有同意；第三個是你有沒有其他的替代方案、其他的做法，可以嗎？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:22.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:24.793000+08:00","text":"次長，我可以有這份報告嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:24.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:26.133000+08:00","text":"你們就這件事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:26.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:36.437000+08:00","text":"我們回去會再提出報告跟委員說明，但是我補充一下，法務部是法律單位，我們不會把有開會當成已經同意，不會這麼做。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:36.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:40.920000+08:00","text":"但是事實上我有看到那個資料，里長也就這麼講，所以……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:40.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:43.262000+08:00","text":"本部做事情一向都會依照法律……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:43.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:45.864000+08:00","text":"所以也才會驚動到執政黨的立委，該區的。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:45.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:53.149000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，跟委員報告，關於傾聽當地的聲音，我想不只是部裡，北檢都會……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:53.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:59.113000+08:00","text":"次長，無論如何，就今天這個案子，我想是不是給我一個具體的回復好嗎？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:59.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:00.113000+08:00","text":"讓我再更加了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:36:59.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:36:59.694000+08:00","text":"我們會再跟委員說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:00.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:01.916000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長、謝謝主席。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:02.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:02.076000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:02.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:04.576000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:04.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:07.447429+08:00","text":"接下來請翁曉玲召委。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}